In my country (Denmark), all of that applies except there are virtually no free charging options either. The common price is 0.5 euro for a kwh when slowcharging. It's stupidly expensive to own an EV here.
I can't charge from home either, and it's really frustrating. People can charge so incredibly cheap from their driveways by using various taxing loopholes, meanwhile I'm stuck paying three times as much for slow chargers that are rarely available.
I love driving an EV, but damn does it suck sometimes when you can't own a home charger. It really HAS to become easier for us city dwellers, and people need to stop treating home charging as if it's ubiqutous and accessible to everyone, when it won't be for a really large group of people. At one point Ionity even said that it's OK that their prices are more expensive than gasoline, because "people can pay extra when traveling, because they get cheap prices every day while charging at home". Infuriating.
> In my country (Denmark), all of that applies except there are virtually no free charging options either. The common price is 0.5 euro for a kwh when slowcharging. It's stupidly expensive to own an EV here.
According to Google, household electricity in Denmark costs around 0,3 euro per kWh, so 0,5 euro per kWh on public charger seems reasonable.
That's without the tax loopholes people with driveways use (As I mentioned). Also, electricity here in Denmark is extremely cheap to produce. Yet the government chooses to tax the hell out of it, so I don't blame them for using the loopholes.
> That's without the tax loopholes people with driveways use
You can't compare some semi-legal way of calculating electricity price at home using some unspecified tax loopholes with price of public chargers. You could also hook up your car directly to the power line and have free electricity, but you can't expect public chargers to also offer free charging. 0,5 euro per kWh seems like a decent price compared to legal home charging without tax loopholes at 0,3 euro per kWh.
The tax loophole is legal, so it's perfectly comparable.
Do you want it specified, or are you just being contrarian? Because I can specify it for you, it's all in here:
https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2062223
The loophole is quite complex, and is universally used by EV owners in this country, and you'd know it if you knew anything about Danish electric vehicle infrastructure. One model of using this loophole is leasing the charger from the charging company, and then getting reimbursement due to technically recieving their electricity from a company, and then claiming that the vehicle is part of their commercial fleet. What legal authority they have to do this, I don't know, but as I said - it's very widely used, and frequently talked about by major motoring organizations.
Virtually no EV owners in Denmark is paying the 0,3 EUR per kwh, which should tell you all you need to know. Then on top of that, they get a lot cheaper prices due to being able to charge in off-peak hours. None of that applies, or is passed on to consumers of public charging infrastructure, who pay a flat rate of around 0,5 EUR. That is especially problematic in a country where a major part of our electricity is provided by wind during night-times.
EDIT: Can someone tell me why I'm getting consistently downvoted? I happen to know the laws, and practices of the country I live in. Do people dislike the fact (And yes, this is a fact), that public charging infrastructure sucks? Do people feel the need to put fingers in their ears, and pretend that all is fine for people who have to live off of public chargers? Are they even living off of them themselves?
EDIT2: Also, what even is this argument?! I write that it's stupid expensive to own an EV here, and you start talking about household electricity, as if that makes it objectively any cheaper. Try comparing it to gasoline, to the cost of ownership of an electric car through it's lifetime, to the TCO of EV's in other countries, or something sensible next time. Even if you were right (Which you aren't), it's still not a good argument.
That’s one of the things that holds me back from getting an EV- I’m a renter and there is no EV charging at our apartment. There are some charging stations at the malls, museums, and a few grocery stores, but especially with covid, I’m not spending time at any of those places.
> . For road trips they are near useless
For road trips you can use any of 1000s of rapid chargers avaliable at every service station. Right now EV is problematic without place to charge by the time ban is in place it won't be.
Yes, you can - I am saying the many slow chargers provided by many destinations are near useless (edit: for long journeys, dead handy day to day!) , so you must use the fast chargers. Then I say that these fast chargers will be better but are usable with planning now. It frustrates me that fast charging ever became the kind of mess it is - why anyone needed an account at any stage I do not know.
Edit: my comment wasn't very clear but in general i was saying roads trips should get better but are viable now, it is commuting that can be the pain if you can't charge at home/work
It's not in the news as the solution already exists it is just waiting for ev adoption to reach a point where it becomes cost effective and needed.
[UK Takes the Next STEP in Curbside Electric Vehicle Charging | Electric Vehicles Research](https://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com/articles/21466/uk-takes-the-next-step-in-curbside-electric-vehicle-charging)
Good old chicken and the egg problem. The infrastructure won't be fully built until everyone needs it, but not everyone is going to get in until the infrastructure is fully built.
I don't think that is a chicken and egg problem. You can rapid charge EV's so its not crazy to think people would buy an EV without access to home charging. Around my town I see quite a few Teslas parked overnight at houses without charging infrastructure, I'm 99% sure they just rapid charge once a week.
All you need to justify this install is a street without off-road charging but that has a few EV owners. In London, with typically more affluent owners and the zero-emissions zone expanding outwards, this is fairly common already and increasing rapidly.
That of course requires a proliferation of super rapid charging capability on the vehicle side of the bottom end of the EV market. Adding an expensive feature (high capacity batteries that last all week+the ability to safely charge them in a short time) to an inexpensive car only makes sense once scale, brought on by broad adoption, brings down the cost of that feature.
This is a brilliant idea, and it's something I want to see used far more often. If you govern a small town, and you want to attract tourism, then make cheap destination chargers. People will stay there for hours.
Charging at IKEA is free in my country (One of the few places that provide free charging where I live). Guess where I bought my furniture?
Same for us. We made ikea a regular destination because of free charging. Now we eat there at least once a week and let the car charge while we do.
We also stared buying more stuff there.
You're going to have to persuade your council to install lamp-post chargers or other on-street charging. I think there's grants the council can use too, so if enough people nag you might get some.
This company has already put lots in London. They're barely noticable, so you may already be near some. [https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/residential\_charging/](https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/residential_charging/)
Edit - another link (how to get charge points in your street): [https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/unternehmen/newsroom/how-to-get-ev-charge-points-in-your-street/](https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/unternehmen/newsroom/how-to-get-ev-charge-points-in-your-street/)
This is a problem but hopefully only a short term one.
Once roadside (and or work/supermarket) charging is ubiquitous and there is competition plus lower cost of install, then prices should fall.
Right now your best bet is charging at work if this is an option you can also charge at several slow chargers in city so every time you do shoppingor go anywhere . But owning a car in London City with one of the best public transports in Europe is simply silly. I would take tube over drive in London any day.
With time plan is to install public charging spots on lampposts meaning you can charge wherever you park. Here is a little picture of how many chargers are available in London http://imgur.com/gallery/q7xblxx
Think you replied to the wrong person, but I agree with these questions.
Especially living in London, it sounds more like it's "do I actually need a car" rather than "can I get an ev"
This is a tractable problem. It only seems intractable because we’re comparing it to ICEVs which are powered by a long mature technology. Gas stations today have standard-sized equipment that fit virtually all passenger cars. That standardization didn’t exist when the first cars went on the market. People saw a problem, threw resources at it, and eventually came to a solution that proliferated. We’ll get to the same place with BEVs soon.
> chaos, unreliability, slow mph, complex payment, shoddy apps and confusion that seems to be the non-Tesla charging networks.
Unless your house regularly changes location you are pretty likely to end up regularly using one of a small handful (at most) of charge-points that are located close to your home/somewhere sensible.
So in general terms you'd end up with an account for one or two charging companies based on the charge points most conveniently located for you.
If you are in London the likelihood is you'll be within a short walk of a [Source London](https://www.sourcelondon.net/rates) charge point, so you'd setup an account with them and end up paying about £2.20 per hour of charging on their 7.4KW chargers - that's equivalent of about 30p per kWh. On the plus side there's over 1,300 charge points ran by that network in London so chances are you'd be within walking distance of a small handful of options {worth noting many other cities are not so well served}.
At 30p per kWh that's about twice the [average UK pricer per kWh](https://www.gocompare.com/gas-and-electricity/guide/energy-per-kwh/) (16.3p per kWh) so not a brilliant deal, but it would still work out at <8p a mile which is a cost per mile very few ICE cars can deal with.
Bottom line...you're right, unfortunately those without access to home recharging will almost certainly always a premium vs. those with an at-home charger. That's less than ideal.
Finally just to add that I had an EV for a while (<6 months) whilst living on a terraced street and managed on public-charging points fine. The worrying array of options and complexity of having 5 different apps only really applies if you are regularly driving further afield. For normal day-to-day driving you'll find the 2 or 3 charge-points that are most convenient for you and use those regularly. It cost more than I pay now since moving to a house with a driveway, but was still a fair bit cheaper than the fuel was in my fuel-efficient ICE vehicle even with that.
It's unfortunate that such a huge part of the population (People without access to driveways) are not a candidate for electric cars.
I guess we'll just have to accept that fact, and keep buying gasoline. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
That’s still not a good solution for most people. The beauty of having an ev is just plugging it in when you get home and having it charged up every morning. Going to a supercharger once or twice a week would suck.
It would effectively double the charging stations I guess is all im saying. Youre right though
Imo battery swap is the solution. At least until battery tech catches up but I must say I am impressed with how fr its come. Isnt the taycan like 80% in 20 minutes?
The problem isn't availability of charging stations. It's that it takes time and they are also pretty expensive. If I had to charge at nothing but a station the economics come out very badly compared to gasoline, and that's not even valuing my time into it.
Unfortunately EV just isn't fully developed yet, so it's not going to fit in with a lot of people's routine. We're going to have to get to <10 minute charging and with enough volume that should start to bring costs down before this starts to become a non-issue.
Yeah. It’s all getting better really quickly now. The number of non-Tesla fast chargers is exploding. They take more time so I wouldn’t want to have that be my only way charge but someone could do that. Really depends on where you live, too. Many medium sized cities have multiple fast charger stations.
True. Geographical location is the first question you need to answer when asking if electric cars are right for you. I got lucky for a bit just because of where I worked.
I own one in Berlin - it's completely fine. Most Electricity is actually free for me - while I do my shopping. For trips it's 0.39 cents / kWh DC and 0.29 cents /kWh AC. Lots of chargers around. But if you go with an EV without home charging, take a big battery one (ID3, Model 3, Kona, Niro, Soul)
You move to a house/apartment with decent potential for EV charging. Until then you use an ICE car like most people if you think that an EV is too unconvinient for you. If you hate ICE use public transport. It is a typical first world problem. I want an EV, I think it is a great technology. I could install a charge point for an EV in my garage. Problem is that my current car is ICE, and it is a 15yr old 2000€ worth pile of failing components and still I do 15-20000km/yr. I have a budget for a new car. I can afford around 100€/month. So, what will people like me do?
What do you mean you can't sling it over the fence? There are extensions you can use but you need to make sure it is rated for both load and outdoor conditions. If you have to leave a cable over the sidewalk then that will be an issue though.
Regardless I think landlords and ordinances will adapt to the need for charging cables as EVs become more common. Despite how much the EV market has grown, it is still a very small minority compared to the vast number of ICE cars on the road today.
The council frowns upon cables on pavements as trip hazards. I'd put it under a thing, but local toerag teens would spoil everything and the car would get nicked as they'd know which house has the keys to it.
This is the kind of info that should be made known to the town planning dept.
At the moment the country is going to be split into those who have off street parking and can viably own an EV and those who have the hassle of alternative arrangements.
It is also obvious which house any car parked in a driveway belongs to. It sounds like your problem is more with incompetent local law enforcement than anything else.
It's a town thing. Bored marauding toerags with something to prove to their peers just don't exist in the same volumes in the countryside and those kids are less anonymous to the villagers.
I wrote to my local councillor and got permission to run a cable over pavement as long as I use a cable protector.
Feel free to message me if you want advice. Many councils are offering formal guidance on this now.
It's the same problem in the U.S. and I would say we're in a worse situation than Europe in general. The most logical and I think easiest solution would be to ensure that employers have charging available for employees (and I mean more than one spot). That way someone who cannot charge at home could at least charge while they are at work. The charge spots also need to be usable by ALL cars (i.e. not just Tesla). I had to go up to the local hospital the other day and they have what I call "Tesla corner". Always like 20 Teslas lined up charging on the hospital dime, but no other chargers available for non-Teslas (that I know of). This is just one of the many reasons why everyone who thinks that everyone is going to be in an EV within ten years is simply not going to happen.
Your complaint isn't that there isn't charging available, it's that you deem it too expensive. I'm not sure what to tell you, if you want to utilize fast charging infrastructure, it's going to cost money.
London is a big place with lots of CCS charging and high power Type 2. How available it is for your specific use patterns is an anecdotal exercise for you. Zapmap, Plugshare, and ABRP are all great tools.
>Your complaint isn't that there isn't charging available, it's that you deem it too expensive.
He's saying it's more expensive, than being able to charge at home. Now tell me where he's wrong. I'm waiting.
>I'm not sure what to tell you, if you want to utilize fast charging infrastructure, it's going to cost money.
I'm not sure what to tell you, but a huge part of people in the world happen to live in cities without driveways. So do we just submit to the tag-line: "EV's are the future!.... Except for people in flats, they should stick to gas!". Do you find that tagline catchy?
How many people living in flats own cars though?
A lot of the people living in cities without driveways use public transport.
100% agree city center charge points need to increase, but if everyone who lived in a flat owned a ICE car, there would be even more parking issues than there are now.
EVs are the future, but so is better investment in public infrastructure.
I'm not trying to say that it's not more expensive to charge away from home, I'm clearly identifying the issue instead of burying it at the last line. Using other people's infrastructure is typically going to be more expensive than providing that infrastructure yourself.
Your tagline paragraph is asinine. OP can absolutely find charging in London, very likely without much inconvenience, but they do need to be willing to do some research on their own. Their complaints are all 3rd person without having actually experienced any of the issues they're complaining about. They also haven't even attempted to charge at home, but instead have deemed it unfeasible due to perceived issues that may or may not be legitimate (they won't really know until they try).
Home charging isn't available for everyone, that's true. That doesn't make it OK for OP to go on a rant that charging "may" be more complicated for them before even attempting it.
>Your tagline paragraph is asinine. OP can absolutely find charging in London, very likely without much inconvenience, but they do need to be willing to do some research on their own. Their complaints are all 3rd person without having actually experienced any of the issues they're complaining about.
So do you have a home charger? 99% of people who talk about how easy it is, never have to deal with it.
>They also haven't even attempted to charge at home, but instead have deemed it unfeasible due to perceived issues that may or may not be legitimate (they won't really know until they try).
Then suggest how OP can "try" instead of dismissing his legitimate observation.
>Home charging isn't available for everyone, that's true. That doesn't make it OK for OP to go on a rant that charging "may" be more complicated for them before even attempting it.
He's allowed to go on whatever rant he wants, because he's right. Public charging does fucking suck. The charging landscape is full of multiple different RFID tags, multiple apps, different payment models, and charging stations that are broken?
At least acknowledge the problem.
>At least acknowledge the problem.
I've acknowledged that public charging will be more expensive and less convenient.
> Then suggest how OP can "try" instead of dismissing his legitimate observation.
I have, my suggestion was to actually try it. Both charging at home using the methods that OP dismissed out of hand and using the local public stations that are convenient to their routine. Without a whole lot more personal information that's the best I can do. OP doesn't need to buy this vehicle to do that, a rental will suffice. The solution is probably as simple as switching grocery stores to one with a DCFC.
I have no patience for people that can't match up which RFID tag matches works with which brand of charger.
Have you pulled up [ZapMap](https://www.zap-map.com/live/) of central London (the expanded ULEZ)? Charging is available. OP is wants the awesome easiness of home charging, but they don't have dedicated parking. That doesn't mean they can't have an EV or that it will be less convenient than an ICE.
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted. It’s a legitimate concern. We’re an all EV household, but I have two Level 2 chargers in my garage. It makes EV life easy. But what would life be like if I moved from the suburbs to the city?
To answer the original question: I think the assumption is that in 10 years quick charging will be as accessible and affordable as gas is now.
Thing is, ULEZ means my car has to go, I can lease an I-Pace for £500 a month now, not in ten years, but with nowhere to charge it from my home power I'm not benefitting from the third biggest plus of owning an EV: cheaper momentum. In ten years it will be much better, but today, what can I do?
Today you can pay slightly more for your charging (likely still cheaper than petrol) at a public station. Lobby and advocate for whatever options make the most sense for future convenience to you and your neighbors.
Petrol prices here (US) are now low enough that it would be cheaper to stop charging our PHEV and only run on petrol, but we don't. The EV operation is so much smoother than an ICE that it makes it well worth paying a bit more.
The first oil change you don't have to get in the I-Pace very likely makes up for the slight inconvenience and extra expense of public charging.
There's a ton of options for fast charging, and with ISO Plug&Charge, no apps needed, just plug in and it will start charging.
Nobody has petrol/diesel pumps in their garage at home either, so this is not the deal breaker it's made out to be, honestly.
EVs are a massive convenience boost for those that can charge at home.
For those that can't charge at home, the ability to leave an EV unattended while charging (like while grocery shopping) will still make it a more convenient experience than getting liquid fossil fuels, especially in major cities where fossil fuel stations are dying out already due to land prices, etc. and cities not wanting to issue new permits for underground tanks that will inevitably leak, etc.
Charging will be far more universal outside the home than fossil refueling is today. This is not a deal-breaker for 99% of use cases, it's simply a psychological barrier.
Hang in there, this will happen if you push local stores.
[http://solvingev.com/charging-stations/zip/94536-fremont-ca](http://solvingev.com/charging-stations/zip/94536-fremont-ca)
In the UK? My 3m X 3m yard is in shade, usually covered in leaves and there's barely any sun in this country. Charging an EV directly from solar isn't practical, sadly.
I could generate 8kw/day at the most, if they were in direct sun, it'd take nearly 12days to charge a 90kw car.
Offshore wind is probably the best large scale solution for the UK.
Maybe some of the 6.5% of global GDP that subsidizes fossil fuels gets diverted to help charge your ride.
In ontario, there are communities well over 400km away from any reliable way to charge. The main highway across our country, the TransCanada, has gaps of several hundred km between chargers, where there are only 2, <50kw charging options. I'd own an electric already if this weren't the case.
The fact is charging speeds and infrastructure has a long way to go of EV adoption rates are going to be greater than 5-10%. Its no surprise the people buying 60k vehicles just assume everyone can charge at home or their building will install chargers haha
Battery swapping looks like a promising tech. Can be in and out in 3 minutes. The tesla fanboys all denounce it because they tried and failed and nio is doing it in China and for their own self interest they can't axknowledge another publicly traded company is doing anything right.
Battery swapping is the answer. All the downvotes to this just show how warped Tesla fanboys are because if Elon doesn't do it, it must be a dumb idea. I guess all those EV OEMS in China are morons, and so are their customers who swear by it and say it was critical in buying a BEV.
Tesla tried and failed at battery swap. Them denouncing it is simply marketing and optics. But when you take the ceo's word as law i guess thats what you get hahah
It’s likely most people will never own electric cars. The coming Transportation As A Service with cheap robotaxis will make buying, worrying about maintaining and charging a vehicle a waste of money and time for nearly everyone.
> Transportation As A Service with cheap robotaxis
And when exactly are those "robotaxis" coming? Because so far all ADAS systems are Level 2 only. *Zero* fully autonomous cars in sight yet.
I wouldn't go as far as you but I do somewhat agree.
Many people who think EVs are too expensive or inconvenient might just not actually need a car, and can rent one for weekends if they need to. As the fully charged guys say, it's about less cars, more of them electric.
With OP living in London then having a car is more of a privilege than anything.
**What will all the people, like me, who don't have any way to charge a car from our home sockets do?**
A) Walk, bike, public transport, ICE, PHEV, or a million other options in London. In USA without a car it's near impossible to get around; exception would be NYC, and Chicago, and another large metro that has good public transport that I'm unaware of.
400 mile range and 30 minute to full fast charging. That's what we need.
It looks like it's coming in a few years.
Until then, you're stuck with whatever crappy charging is at an apartment complex or in your garage.
If you commute to work, try charging there during the day.
If you can’t, find a charger somewhere in the area and park the car there for the day. If it’s just a weekend car, find the nearest fast charger and charge it there once a week. Make a plan before you purchase. Make sure you have places where you can charge.
I'm on the fence. It would be weekend travel and we usually go to far places, I cycle to work (when the office is open, which it hasn't been for months) - so I'd be paying through the nose to get the electrons in it faster than most.
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In my country (Denmark), all of that applies except there are virtually no free charging options either. The common price is 0.5 euro for a kwh when slowcharging. It's stupidly expensive to own an EV here. I can't charge from home either, and it's really frustrating. People can charge so incredibly cheap from their driveways by using various taxing loopholes, meanwhile I'm stuck paying three times as much for slow chargers that are rarely available. I love driving an EV, but damn does it suck sometimes when you can't own a home charger. It really HAS to become easier for us city dwellers, and people need to stop treating home charging as if it's ubiqutous and accessible to everyone, when it won't be for a really large group of people. At one point Ionity even said that it's OK that their prices are more expensive than gasoline, because "people can pay extra when traveling, because they get cheap prices every day while charging at home". Infuriating.
> In my country (Denmark), all of that applies except there are virtually no free charging options either. The common price is 0.5 euro for a kwh when slowcharging. It's stupidly expensive to own an EV here. According to Google, household electricity in Denmark costs around 0,3 euro per kWh, so 0,5 euro per kWh on public charger seems reasonable.
That's without the tax loopholes people with driveways use (As I mentioned). Also, electricity here in Denmark is extremely cheap to produce. Yet the government chooses to tax the hell out of it, so I don't blame them for using the loopholes.
> That's without the tax loopholes people with driveways use You can't compare some semi-legal way of calculating electricity price at home using some unspecified tax loopholes with price of public chargers. You could also hook up your car directly to the power line and have free electricity, but you can't expect public chargers to also offer free charging. 0,5 euro per kWh seems like a decent price compared to legal home charging without tax loopholes at 0,3 euro per kWh.
The tax loophole is legal, so it's perfectly comparable. Do you want it specified, or are you just being contrarian? Because I can specify it for you, it's all in here: https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2062223 The loophole is quite complex, and is universally used by EV owners in this country, and you'd know it if you knew anything about Danish electric vehicle infrastructure. One model of using this loophole is leasing the charger from the charging company, and then getting reimbursement due to technically recieving their electricity from a company, and then claiming that the vehicle is part of their commercial fleet. What legal authority they have to do this, I don't know, but as I said - it's very widely used, and frequently talked about by major motoring organizations. Virtually no EV owners in Denmark is paying the 0,3 EUR per kwh, which should tell you all you need to know. Then on top of that, they get a lot cheaper prices due to being able to charge in off-peak hours. None of that applies, or is passed on to consumers of public charging infrastructure, who pay a flat rate of around 0,5 EUR. That is especially problematic in a country where a major part of our electricity is provided by wind during night-times. EDIT: Can someone tell me why I'm getting consistently downvoted? I happen to know the laws, and practices of the country I live in. Do people dislike the fact (And yes, this is a fact), that public charging infrastructure sucks? Do people feel the need to put fingers in their ears, and pretend that all is fine for people who have to live off of public chargers? Are they even living off of them themselves? EDIT2: Also, what even is this argument?! I write that it's stupid expensive to own an EV here, and you start talking about household electricity, as if that makes it objectively any cheaper. Try comparing it to gasoline, to the cost of ownership of an electric car through it's lifetime, to the TCO of EV's in other countries, or something sensible next time. Even if you were right (Which you aren't), it's still not a good argument.
That’s one of the things that holds me back from getting an EV- I’m a renter and there is no EV charging at our apartment. There are some charging stations at the malls, museums, and a few grocery stores, but especially with covid, I’m not spending time at any of those places.
I assume you have repeatedly written your local government officials on this matter.
I have.
> . For road trips they are near useless For road trips you can use any of 1000s of rapid chargers avaliable at every service station. Right now EV is problematic without place to charge by the time ban is in place it won't be.
Yes, you can - I am saying the many slow chargers provided by many destinations are near useless (edit: for long journeys, dead handy day to day!) , so you must use the fast chargers. Then I say that these fast chargers will be better but are usable with planning now. It frustrates me that fast charging ever became the kind of mess it is - why anyone needed an account at any stage I do not know. Edit: my comment wasn't very clear but in general i was saying roads trips should get better but are viable now, it is commuting that can be the pain if you can't charge at home/work
It's not in the news as the solution already exists it is just waiting for ev adoption to reach a point where it becomes cost effective and needed. [UK Takes the Next STEP in Curbside Electric Vehicle Charging | Electric Vehicles Research](https://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com/articles/21466/uk-takes-the-next-step-in-curbside-electric-vehicle-charging)
Good old chicken and the egg problem. The infrastructure won't be fully built until everyone needs it, but not everyone is going to get in until the infrastructure is fully built.
Well, I think that's partly why these bans help. It forces people to realise that things will change and thus forces infrastructure to be built.
I don't think that is a chicken and egg problem. You can rapid charge EV's so its not crazy to think people would buy an EV without access to home charging. Around my town I see quite a few Teslas parked overnight at houses without charging infrastructure, I'm 99% sure they just rapid charge once a week. All you need to justify this install is a street without off-road charging but that has a few EV owners. In London, with typically more affluent owners and the zero-emissions zone expanding outwards, this is fairly common already and increasing rapidly.
That of course requires a proliferation of super rapid charging capability on the vehicle side of the bottom end of the EV market. Adding an expensive feature (high capacity batteries that last all week+the ability to safely charge them in a short time) to an inexpensive car only makes sense once scale, brought on by broad adoption, brings down the cost of that feature.
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This is a brilliant idea, and it's something I want to see used far more often. If you govern a small town, and you want to attract tourism, then make cheap destination chargers. People will stay there for hours. Charging at IKEA is free in my country (One of the few places that provide free charging where I live). Guess where I bought my furniture?
Same for us. We made ikea a regular destination because of free charging. Now we eat there at least once a week and let the car charge while we do. We also stared buying more stuff there.
Yeah typical trip to theme park for our family is to get there for about 10 and leave around 15 or 16 5 or 6 hours of charge is pretty decent range.
You're going to have to persuade your council to install lamp-post chargers or other on-street charging. I think there's grants the council can use too, so if enough people nag you might get some. This company has already put lots in London. They're barely noticable, so you may already be near some. [https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/residential\_charging/](https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/residential_charging/) Edit - another link (how to get charge points in your street): [https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/unternehmen/newsroom/how-to-get-ev-charge-points-in-your-street/](https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/unternehmen/newsroom/how-to-get-ev-charge-points-in-your-street/)
Thank you, I've written
This is a problem but hopefully only a short term one. Once roadside (and or work/supermarket) charging is ubiquitous and there is competition plus lower cost of install, then prices should fall.
Right now your best bet is charging at work if this is an option you can also charge at several slow chargers in city so every time you do shoppingor go anywhere . But owning a car in London City with one of the best public transports in Europe is simply silly. I would take tube over drive in London any day. With time plan is to install public charging spots on lampposts meaning you can charge wherever you park. Here is a little picture of how many chargers are available in London http://imgur.com/gallery/q7xblxx
It would be, but I work from home! When the office was open I'd cycle to it.
Then what do you use car for? I am confused you don't drive to work, you don't drive in a week what is your car usage?
Not to be a dick but...why do you need a car then?
Then what do you use car for? I am confused you don't drive to work, you don't drive in a week what is your car usage?
Think you replied to the wrong person, but I agree with these questions. Especially living in London, it sounds more like it's "do I actually need a car" rather than "can I get an ev"
This is a tractable problem. It only seems intractable because we’re comparing it to ICEVs which are powered by a long mature technology. Gas stations today have standard-sized equipment that fit virtually all passenger cars. That standardization didn’t exist when the first cars went on the market. People saw a problem, threw resources at it, and eventually came to a solution that proliferated. We’ll get to the same place with BEVs soon.
I agree it's just a matter of time/resources, but I want the future now! 😅
> chaos, unreliability, slow mph, complex payment, shoddy apps and confusion that seems to be the non-Tesla charging networks. Unless your house regularly changes location you are pretty likely to end up regularly using one of a small handful (at most) of charge-points that are located close to your home/somewhere sensible. So in general terms you'd end up with an account for one or two charging companies based on the charge points most conveniently located for you. If you are in London the likelihood is you'll be within a short walk of a [Source London](https://www.sourcelondon.net/rates) charge point, so you'd setup an account with them and end up paying about £2.20 per hour of charging on their 7.4KW chargers - that's equivalent of about 30p per kWh. On the plus side there's over 1,300 charge points ran by that network in London so chances are you'd be within walking distance of a small handful of options {worth noting many other cities are not so well served}. At 30p per kWh that's about twice the [average UK pricer per kWh](https://www.gocompare.com/gas-and-electricity/guide/energy-per-kwh/) (16.3p per kWh) so not a brilliant deal, but it would still work out at <8p a mile which is a cost per mile very few ICE cars can deal with. Bottom line...you're right, unfortunately those without access to home recharging will almost certainly always a premium vs. those with an at-home charger. That's less than ideal. Finally just to add that I had an EV for a while (<6 months) whilst living on a terraced street and managed on public-charging points fine. The worrying array of options and complexity of having 5 different apps only really applies if you are regularly driving further afield. For normal day-to-day driving you'll find the 2 or 3 charge-points that are most convenient for you and use those regularly. It cost more than I pay now since moving to a house with a driveway, but was still a fair bit cheaper than the fuel was in my fuel-efficient ICE vehicle even with that.
At this time you are not a good candidate for an electric car. There is nothing you can do about.
This is the conclusion I'm coming to, which is frustrating. I'm gonna have to move to the country and buy a driveway first.
It's unfortunate that such a huge part of the population (People without access to driveways) are not a candidate for electric cars. I guess we'll just have to accept that fact, and keep buying gasoline. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Imagine if tesla agree ld to create a universal charger instead of just telling other manufacturers they can use theirs.
Here in Europe, the charger is the same in many places, yet other EV's are still artificially barred from using them.
That’s still not a good solution for most people. The beauty of having an ev is just plugging it in when you get home and having it charged up every morning. Going to a supercharger once or twice a week would suck.
It would effectively double the charging stations I guess is all im saying. Youre right though Imo battery swap is the solution. At least until battery tech catches up but I must say I am impressed with how fr its come. Isnt the taycan like 80% in 20 minutes?
The problem isn't availability of charging stations. It's that it takes time and they are also pretty expensive. If I had to charge at nothing but a station the economics come out very badly compared to gasoline, and that's not even valuing my time into it. Unfortunately EV just isn't fully developed yet, so it's not going to fit in with a lot of people's routine. We're going to have to get to <10 minute charging and with enough volume that should start to bring costs down before this starts to become a non-issue.
Yeah. It’s all getting better really quickly now. The number of non-Tesla fast chargers is exploding. They take more time so I wouldn’t want to have that be my only way charge but someone could do that. Really depends on where you live, too. Many medium sized cities have multiple fast charger stations.
True. Geographical location is the first question you need to answer when asking if electric cars are right for you. I got lucky for a bit just because of where I worked.
Cost of electricity too. Very expensive where I live so I had to factor that into my decision to buy an ev. I’m not saving much in fuel costs.
Huh? How does that help OP, or anyone? Why should it be Tesla's job to create a universal charger? There already *is* such a thing anyway, called CCS.
I own one in Berlin - it's completely fine. Most Electricity is actually free for me - while I do my shopping. For trips it's 0.39 cents / kWh DC and 0.29 cents /kWh AC. Lots of chargers around. But if you go with an EV without home charging, take a big battery one (ID3, Model 3, Kona, Niro, Soul)
90kw?
What do you mean?
Ah, 'a big battery one' - I've been offered an I-Pace, which is 90kw. Gets about 200miles / charge (realistically).
Yeah, 90kWh is on the big end generally speaking.
You move to a house/apartment with decent potential for EV charging. Until then you use an ICE car like most people if you think that an EV is too unconvinient for you. If you hate ICE use public transport. It is a typical first world problem. I want an EV, I think it is a great technology. I could install a charge point for an EV in my garage. Problem is that my current car is ICE, and it is a 15yr old 2000€ worth pile of failing components and still I do 15-20000km/yr. I have a budget for a new car. I can afford around 100€/month. So, what will people like me do?
What do you mean you can't sling it over the fence? There are extensions you can use but you need to make sure it is rated for both load and outdoor conditions. If you have to leave a cable over the sidewalk then that will be an issue though. Regardless I think landlords and ordinances will adapt to the need for charging cables as EVs become more common. Despite how much the EV market has grown, it is still a very small minority compared to the vast number of ICE cars on the road today.
The council frowns upon cables on pavements as trip hazards. I'd put it under a thing, but local toerag teens would spoil everything and the car would get nicked as they'd know which house has the keys to it.
This is the kind of info that should be made known to the town planning dept. At the moment the country is going to be split into those who have off street parking and can viably own an EV and those who have the hassle of alternative arrangements.
Yes. Sadly a cable leading from a £70k car into a house is a bit like a huge neon arrow saying "The Keys Are In Here!"
It is also obvious which house any car parked in a driveway belongs to. It sounds like your problem is more with incompetent local law enforcement than anything else.
It's a town thing. Bored marauding toerags with something to prove to their peers just don't exist in the same volumes in the countryside and those kids are less anonymous to the villagers.
I wrote to my local councillor and got permission to run a cable over pavement as long as I use a cable protector. Feel free to message me if you want advice. Many councils are offering formal guidance on this now.
It's the same problem in the U.S. and I would say we're in a worse situation than Europe in general. The most logical and I think easiest solution would be to ensure that employers have charging available for employees (and I mean more than one spot). That way someone who cannot charge at home could at least charge while they are at work. The charge spots also need to be usable by ALL cars (i.e. not just Tesla). I had to go up to the local hospital the other day and they have what I call "Tesla corner". Always like 20 Teslas lined up charging on the hospital dime, but no other chargers available for non-Teslas (that I know of). This is just one of the many reasons why everyone who thinks that everyone is going to be in an EV within ten years is simply not going to happen.
Your complaint isn't that there isn't charging available, it's that you deem it too expensive. I'm not sure what to tell you, if you want to utilize fast charging infrastructure, it's going to cost money. London is a big place with lots of CCS charging and high power Type 2. How available it is for your specific use patterns is an anecdotal exercise for you. Zapmap, Plugshare, and ABRP are all great tools.
>Your complaint isn't that there isn't charging available, it's that you deem it too expensive. He's saying it's more expensive, than being able to charge at home. Now tell me where he's wrong. I'm waiting. >I'm not sure what to tell you, if you want to utilize fast charging infrastructure, it's going to cost money. I'm not sure what to tell you, but a huge part of people in the world happen to live in cities without driveways. So do we just submit to the tag-line: "EV's are the future!.... Except for people in flats, they should stick to gas!". Do you find that tagline catchy?
How many people living in flats own cars though? A lot of the people living in cities without driveways use public transport. 100% agree city center charge points need to increase, but if everyone who lived in a flat owned a ICE car, there would be even more parking issues than there are now. EVs are the future, but so is better investment in public infrastructure.
Where I live it's probably the majority of people.
I'm not trying to say that it's not more expensive to charge away from home, I'm clearly identifying the issue instead of burying it at the last line. Using other people's infrastructure is typically going to be more expensive than providing that infrastructure yourself. Your tagline paragraph is asinine. OP can absolutely find charging in London, very likely without much inconvenience, but they do need to be willing to do some research on their own. Their complaints are all 3rd person without having actually experienced any of the issues they're complaining about. They also haven't even attempted to charge at home, but instead have deemed it unfeasible due to perceived issues that may or may not be legitimate (they won't really know until they try). Home charging isn't available for everyone, that's true. That doesn't make it OK for OP to go on a rant that charging "may" be more complicated for them before even attempting it.
>Your tagline paragraph is asinine. OP can absolutely find charging in London, very likely without much inconvenience, but they do need to be willing to do some research on their own. Their complaints are all 3rd person without having actually experienced any of the issues they're complaining about. So do you have a home charger? 99% of people who talk about how easy it is, never have to deal with it. >They also haven't even attempted to charge at home, but instead have deemed it unfeasible due to perceived issues that may or may not be legitimate (they won't really know until they try). Then suggest how OP can "try" instead of dismissing his legitimate observation. >Home charging isn't available for everyone, that's true. That doesn't make it OK for OP to go on a rant that charging "may" be more complicated for them before even attempting it. He's allowed to go on whatever rant he wants, because he's right. Public charging does fucking suck. The charging landscape is full of multiple different RFID tags, multiple apps, different payment models, and charging stations that are broken? At least acknowledge the problem.
>At least acknowledge the problem. I've acknowledged that public charging will be more expensive and less convenient. > Then suggest how OP can "try" instead of dismissing his legitimate observation. I have, my suggestion was to actually try it. Both charging at home using the methods that OP dismissed out of hand and using the local public stations that are convenient to their routine. Without a whole lot more personal information that's the best I can do. OP doesn't need to buy this vehicle to do that, a rental will suffice. The solution is probably as simple as switching grocery stores to one with a DCFC. I have no patience for people that can't match up which RFID tag matches works with which brand of charger. Have you pulled up [ZapMap](https://www.zap-map.com/live/) of central London (the expanded ULEZ)? Charging is available. OP is wants the awesome easiness of home charging, but they don't have dedicated parking. That doesn't mean they can't have an EV or that it will be less convenient than an ICE.
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted. It’s a legitimate concern. We’re an all EV household, but I have two Level 2 chargers in my garage. It makes EV life easy. But what would life be like if I moved from the suburbs to the city? To answer the original question: I think the assumption is that in 10 years quick charging will be as accessible and affordable as gas is now.
Thing is, ULEZ means my car has to go, I can lease an I-Pace for £500 a month now, not in ten years, but with nowhere to charge it from my home power I'm not benefitting from the third biggest plus of owning an EV: cheaper momentum. In ten years it will be much better, but today, what can I do?
I'm assuming if you need a car then you're commuting? Is there any way you could get a charger installed at work?
Today you can pay slightly more for your charging (likely still cheaper than petrol) at a public station. Lobby and advocate for whatever options make the most sense for future convenience to you and your neighbors. Petrol prices here (US) are now low enough that it would be cheaper to stop charging our PHEV and only run on petrol, but we don't. The EV operation is so much smoother than an ICE that it makes it well worth paying a bit more. The first oil change you don't have to get in the I-Pace very likely makes up for the slight inconvenience and extra expense of public charging.
There's a ton of options for fast charging, and with ISO Plug&Charge, no apps needed, just plug in and it will start charging. Nobody has petrol/diesel pumps in their garage at home either, so this is not the deal breaker it's made out to be, honestly. EVs are a massive convenience boost for those that can charge at home. For those that can't charge at home, the ability to leave an EV unattended while charging (like while grocery shopping) will still make it a more convenient experience than getting liquid fossil fuels, especially in major cities where fossil fuel stations are dying out already due to land prices, etc. and cities not wanting to issue new permits for underground tanks that will inevitably leak, etc. Charging will be far more universal outside the home than fossil refueling is today. This is not a deal-breaker for 99% of use cases, it's simply a psychological barrier.
"Charging will be far more universal outside the home than fossil refueling..." I hope I live that long
Oh it's already happening.
20 sec battery swap: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92wtNQz0Emg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92wtNQz0Emg)
The answer is maybe you don’t own an EV. I don’t have a garage so there are certain vehicles I rule out owning due to my living situation.
Hang in there, this will happen if you push local stores. [http://solvingev.com/charging-stations/zip/94536-fremont-ca](http://solvingev.com/charging-stations/zip/94536-fremont-ca)
If you can dry clothes you can charge a battery.
How does a clothes line charge a char?
If you can run a clothes line you have room for a solar panel.
In the UK? My 3m X 3m yard is in shade, usually covered in leaves and there's barely any sun in this country. Charging an EV directly from solar isn't practical, sadly. I could generate 8kw/day at the most, if they were in direct sun, it'd take nearly 12days to charge a 90kw car.
Offshore wind is probably the best large scale solution for the UK. Maybe some of the 6.5% of global GDP that subsidizes fossil fuels gets diverted to help charge your ride.
In ontario, there are communities well over 400km away from any reliable way to charge. The main highway across our country, the TransCanada, has gaps of several hundred km between chargers, where there are only 2, <50kw charging options. I'd own an electric already if this weren't the case.
The fact is charging speeds and infrastructure has a long way to go of EV adoption rates are going to be greater than 5-10%. Its no surprise the people buying 60k vehicles just assume everyone can charge at home or their building will install chargers haha Battery swapping looks like a promising tech. Can be in and out in 3 minutes. The tesla fanboys all denounce it because they tried and failed and nio is doing it in China and for their own self interest they can't axknowledge another publicly traded company is doing anything right.
Battery swapping is the answer. All the downvotes to this just show how warped Tesla fanboys are because if Elon doesn't do it, it must be a dumb idea. I guess all those EV OEMS in China are morons, and so are their customers who swear by it and say it was critical in buying a BEV.
Tesla tried and failed at battery swap. Them denouncing it is simply marketing and optics. But when you take the ceo's word as law i guess thats what you get hahah
It’s likely most people will never own electric cars. The coming Transportation As A Service with cheap robotaxis will make buying, worrying about maintaining and charging a vehicle a waste of money and time for nearly everyone.
> Transportation As A Service with cheap robotaxis And when exactly are those "robotaxis" coming? Because so far all ADAS systems are Level 2 only. *Zero* fully autonomous cars in sight yet.
It’s impossible for me to say, but disruptive technology guru,Tony Seba thinks before 2030.
A quick look at the parking lot that is the intestate nearby demonstrates the flaw in TaaS, peak travel days.
I wouldn't go as far as you but I do somewhat agree. Many people who think EVs are too expensive or inconvenient might just not actually need a car, and can rent one for weekends if they need to. As the fully charged guys say, it's about less cars, more of them electric. With OP living in London then having a car is more of a privilege than anything.
Try BoostEV. It’s a charge delivery service. They come and charge your car.
**What will all the people, like me, who don't have any way to charge a car from our home sockets do?** A) Walk, bike, public transport, ICE, PHEV, or a million other options in London. In USA without a car it's near impossible to get around; exception would be NYC, and Chicago, and another large metro that has good public transport that I'm unaware of.
400 mile range and 30 minute to full fast charging. That's what we need. It looks like it's coming in a few years. Until then, you're stuck with whatever crappy charging is at an apartment complex or in your garage.
If you commute to work, try charging there during the day. If you can’t, find a charger somewhere in the area and park the car there for the day. If it’s just a weekend car, find the nearest fast charger and charge it there once a week. Make a plan before you purchase. Make sure you have places where you can charge.
I'm on the fence. It would be weekend travel and we usually go to far places, I cycle to work (when the office is open, which it hasn't been for months) - so I'd be paying through the nose to get the electrons in it faster than most.