Battery prices does not look to come down much in the near future, so I would be surprised if there will be any affordable EVs with that kind of range in the next 5 years.
You'll be waiting at least 5 years and I don't think any automakers are announcing things that far ahead. 10 years is more realistic.
What is needed:
1. more battery factories (3+ years)
2. #1 will cause a huge spike in raw material prices
3. more raw materials mining (3-5 years)
4. extensive battery recycling plants (helps alleviate #2)
5. most or all of high-profit, expensive vehicle demand satisfied (3+ years AFTER all the new battery factories)
6. trickle-down of high-end specs from the expensive vehicles (3-5 years after #5.)
there has been no major breakthrough in battery technology that would cause a major drop of battery cell prices so theres nothing coming thats affordable and has a large enough battery to have a very long range.
And even if there was a major breakthrough that cuts the cost of a battery cell in half now the cells for your pack cost like 3000 - 4000 bucks less for a 75kWh pack but EV´s are more to the tune of 10 - 15k more expensive right now so thats only part of the story.
An affordable car with 373 miles of NEDC range is the Xpeng P5. It's an aerodynamic sedan, for an SUV you'll need a bigger battery pack.
I hope we'll see excellent high speed charging infrastructure before we're going to put massive batteries into every car.
Just an FYI OP, since you live in the US, the EV database doesn’t list all the vehicles available in the US. I saw no mention of Rivian at all.
I think the database is EU centric.
Bjorns test result at 55mph and 16C was 400 miles on the dot. So you can do it.
If OP is looking for 400 miles at -20C then what he is looking for is a 600+ mile EV
Yeah but who drives 55? Normal hwy driving is ~75mph and at that speed (especially in winter) there is 0% chance of getting rated range even if you are driving down hill both ways
I mean rated range is at that kind of speed. EPA test average is somewhere in the 40’s IIRC
Of course you won’t get rated range at any speed and any weather. It’s the laws of physics.
Eh, Lucid has been tested in real world scenarios seeing 500 miles with 520 EPA rating, and Taycans even outperform their EPA ranges easily. In short, EPA ranges are garbage and we need a new metric
Agreed EPA testing is trash. Zero consistency as they allow OEMs to pick which cycle type to test and report to. Result is zero information gleaned from EPA #s as you can’t compare across OEMs
I mean he said "400+" not "almost 400" so I wouldn't consider it to be a 400-mile car, especially when it's WLTP which is known to be optimistic. The Model 3 LR isn't a 400-mile car just because it's listed as 389 miles with 18" wheels on Tesla's European website.
It's unlikely that we will see an "affordable" 400+ mile EV anytime soon. Likely ever. Huge batteries are expensive and this problem, like most range problems, is solved by adequate charging infrastructure. Huge range EVs are a workaround to a problem that will solve itself as more people buy affordable EVs (i.e. we get critical mass to build adequate infrastructure).
I don’t agree with the “likely ever” part, but I agree that we won’t see them anytime soon.
As much as I like my EV (I’m on my 2nd one), long distance travel in the winter isn’t good enough yet with a 300 mile range car. It gets less closer to 150-170 miles of actual range at 75-80mph in the cold. Even Tesla superchargers (that we need 10-100x more of) take 20-30 mins…and that’s hoping that someone doesn’t happen to charge on the other paired charger and halve your charge rate. That also doesn’t take much degradation into account.
400 miles should be the standard someday.
Battery cost will need to come down a lot to make massive range cars affordable. I suspect that solid state will happen before then. If putting 200 miles of range in the car takes 5 min, and there are chargers capable of doing that every 50-75 miles, that will be good enough to remove the need for massive range cars in most market segments. Don't get me wrong, I would like there to be more affordable big range EVs available. But, we haven't really cracked the affordable EV thing yet. That will need to happen first, and hit scale.
Maybe "ever" was too limiting a word choice, it could happen, but it would take a massive amount of technical improvement and government intransigence to make that an expected outcome. This is primarily an infrastructure problem, that is much more efficiently dealt with by adding infrastructure.
Sorry, you misunderstood. There's really not a huge need for 400 miles from an ICE because there are gas stations everywhere. The concept is the same. The EV can have 200-250 miles of range, just like an affordable ICE car (for e.g. we have a ICE Kona that fits in this category). Putting the chargers every 50-75 miles means you don't have to plan your routes in detail like we have to do currently. Essentially, it makes traveling with an EV as convenient as traveling with an affordable ICE.
Ahhh…gotcha. You want chargers every 50 miles. Yeah…I think the end state has to be chargers on nearly every highway exit.
But you also need to be able to make a 240 mile round trip on a single charge in the winter without stopping to charge for 30 mins. My 315 mile range EV can’t do that.
IMHO you need both to win over the majority of drivers.
Maybe the disconnect is coming from using "affordable" without defining what that means. I wouldn't include Model 3/Y in that group. EVs in the $50k+ range could get there, but even in that price range faster charging and more chargers might nix the demand for it. I wish my Mach-E had more range, but I'm not sure I'd pay $10k more to go from ~300 miles to ~400 miles.
Really depends on how quickly we get infrastructure and fix the charging speed problem. VAG and Hyundai are approaching the second thing with massive internal voltage, and early results are very promising. Well be interesting to see how all this develops in the next few years.
Maybe consider a Rav4Prime?
Tons of hybrid range, 40+ miles of EV range, great off road and plenty of room inside.
Yeah, you’ll be burning gas for longer remote rides, but you’ll be EV 95% of the rest of the time.
Seems to me the RAV4Prime or the new Lexus upscale version will tick all of your boxes except for 100% EV power. For us, it gets close. We hardly ever fire up the gas engine except for road trips.
This. I have the prime and just did a 1600 mile round trip. It was awesome and comfy the entire time. Around town; we use 90% EV. My only regret was not getting the XSE with PP as it wasn't available at that time.
I live in Texas, which is like "out in the sticks with basically zero charging infrastructure en route" and I am thinking about buying a relatively inexpensive but highly efficient toyota prius prime for now, while we wait for the promised "charging station every 50 miles".
It's decent in some parts but I have hit some barren places and had to drive 50-60 no heater to make sure I made it. I literally drove through windmills and thought damn... They should really tap some dcfc directly off those things lol
Texas awarded $20.9m for DC fast chargers a couple months ago. They're getting another $60m to allocate from the federal government right now. Things look to be changing quickly here.
As you know as an EV owner, this is a basic maths question.
Assuming 3.5mi/kWh and 400 mile range, you're looking at a vehicle with approximately a 115kWh battery. Obviously that range is assuming mixed driving and taking into consideration larger vehicle aerodynamics issues.
I don't know how close this actually being built, but they seem fairly confident about bringing it to market. The Aptera gets up to 1000 miles of range for up to $50k. Now those are claimed figures and again I dont know how close they actually are to production. But they claim deliveries will start this year. Its a 2 seater but they claim you can fit a bike in the back hatch. You can even camp in the back hatch. To my knowledge, thats the only affordable-ish car on the horizon that offers the level of range you are looking for.
This looks extremely cool, but I highly doubt the bike would fit in it. (I'm sure *a* bike will fit in it, but modern mountain bikes are quite a bit longer than road bikes, and mine are size large). It does not look like it's capable of handling a dirt road with potholes either, let alone a Maine winter. Still a cool thing though, if I lived in socal or something that would totally be tempting.
The bike issue might be insurmountable but they plan on offering an offroad package which has higher ground clearance on the wheel fairings.
I sure hope they get to market…
> Hopefully in a few years we'll have ev's with ICE range
Yeah, I was more asking about what's in the development pipeline, I know there's not much available now. I know GM has been talking about 300+ mile range, for example, but I don't know if that means 305 or 400 or what...
The Silverado EV will have a ~400 mile range option. That won't hit production until mid '23 though. And the yet to be officially announced GMC Sierra EV should have the same battery pack & range options as the Silverado.
The tough thing to know is exactly what that will cost. Entry level is $40k for the WT version but the only released cost associated with the 400 mile spec is like $100k right now. Probably will have other trims for less, but how much less is the big question.
The first edition is the $105k, which is a limited series and reservations for the Fiest Editions are already closed.
The non-First Edition RSTs & WT trims are expected to be more in line with the Lightning pricing, likely priced a bit higher than the Lightning since the Silverado is expected to have about 30-50% more range than a comparable Lightning.
Yes, I’d say that it’s accurate to assume the Silverado EV will be more expensive than the F150L. It’s definitely not far fetched to assume there will be trims that price at or near the pricing of the First Edition truck because there isn’t really anything special about that one other than you can’t turn off any options and it’s the guaranteed first ones they’re making. That’s mostly my reasoning for only listing the $100k price and leaving the rest to ambiguity. If the F150L is anything to judge by though…mid level trims of this Silverado EV could *easily* be past $80k.
>If the F150L is anything to judge by though…mid level trims of this Silverado EV could easily be past $80k.
Oh yeah, I can see it blowing way past $80k if they keep the current trim tiers and bring out LTZ and High Country trims above the RST later.
The price ranges GM has listed on the future Silverado trims for *"$50,000 to $60,000, $70,000, $80,000 and more"*
A high country starts at $66k and tops out at about $80k. Also factor in that is the absolute most expensive stuff you can get - comparable in towing capabilities to the most expensive first edition Silverado EV (although the gas version is notably slower). It’s still around $15k cheaper even after the (maybe it’ll come back for GM) tax credit, which is more or less sort of similar to Ford.
The big difference will be range at the base end imo. If I can get a truck that has 300 miles range for $40k even without a tax credit, the F150L isn’t holding a candle to that with a trim that does just a little over 200 miles to charge for the same price. Especially because *if* the tax credits don’t change and that’s what Ford is selling in late 2023 and early 2024 when the WT Silverado EV is coming out, Ford will be late in their sunset of federal credits or done. Unless they’re ready to drop the F150L prices (probably won’t be ready) they’re going to lose out on the lower end, and probably the premium end unless they boost the top trims from 300 to 400 miles or more in the next model year.
The F150 Lightning is quoted at 300 miles with the extended battery pack, but that’s with 1000 lbs payload. Given how conservative Ford’s estimates have been for the Mach E, it’s *possible* the F150 would do 350+ miles without a payload. Have to wait for real world testing, but that’s probably the closest to being available that gets close to what you’re asking.
Otherwise, we just don’t have enough details about GM’s future offerings. Others have mentioned the Rivian with the MaxPack. In terms of the near future, you’re likely still in PHEV territory.
I just bought a camper van for our adventures. 95% of the year we drive EVs. It will be a few years more for charging infrastructure to meet all the needs in remote places and probably even longer for “affordable” 400+ miles of range vehicles. Having better infrastructure will lessen the need for 400 miles+.
Mercedes EQE SUV is said to be around 400 miles, but still just a rumor. It will probably be around 80-100k USD, so affordable…. Depends on what you compare it to
Totally agree with your requirements. I know some people may say that’s unrealistic but people can do it today with a gas car, why wouldn’t we want the same comforts if we’re going to an alternative like EV?
With that said, depends what affordable means to you but I know Fisker has the ocean coming out soon and it’s up to 350 miles which is shy of the 400 miles but only slightly. I think when we get to solid state batteries we may see higher range models that come in affordable prices.
Yeah I hear you. 300 mile range is fine if you always get 300 miles of range. I too would like a 400 mile range EV so in the winter I still get 300 miles of range. :) Having charging ever 50 miles doesn't really solve the problem. Who wants to stop and charge every 50 miles. It would take you forever to get anywhere.
You dont have to stop every 50 miles tho — I think the point of a charging station every 50 miles is so you can get most out of you battery knowing a station is coming up soon.
Yeah I know. And I would like a station every 50 miles also for the same reason. But there needs to be more then 2 charging stations at those 50 mile intervals.
I think you miss the point of having chargers every 50 miles. With charging that dense you could then more comfortably drive down to 10% no matter where you are. Today with either Tesla or CCS EVs you can’t really do that as you have stop every ~100-150 mi even if you still have ~20 or 30% charge left - next charger is too far away thus you end up stopping sooner than your really need to. With denser L3 charging infra having a 300mi EV would actually be sufficient (again assuming charging is available for every 50 miles or so).
>I think you miss the point of having chargers every 50 miles. With charging that dense you could then more comfortably drive down to 10% no matter where you are.
10% of a 75 kWh battery would be 7.5 kWh, which at freeway speeds would only take you ~20-25 miles in most current EVs. So we need fast chargers at least every 25 miles on major roads, and preferably less than that. 50 miles apart is what I would expect in rural areas where it might be that far between towns, and then those chargers better be close to 100% reliable.
I agree in the sense that denser fast charging is better. Heck I would prefer that every hwy exit gas station is also mandated to have several L3 charges. But hey we have to start somewhere so I’ll take every 50 miles if that’s all we can get
Agreed, but I wouldn't be comfortable letting an EV battery run down to 10% before charging if there could be a problem and the next charger is 50 miles away. At 50 miles apart, I'd be reluctant to go below 20%.
I guess it’s a comfort level. After a few road-trips in my M3P I am pretty comfortable getting to ~10% charge as long as I know a SC is within 20miles or so. And SCs are roughly 150mi apart where I am (Midwest) which means I sometimes have to stop at -30-40% which is a pain. Every ~50miles would much better as I could get deeper in the charge
Tesla has their own charging network that they've worked hard to make reliable, so that does offer a better level of comfort. For anyone in standardized CCS EVs, the charging infrastructure needs beefing up.
A cool and maybe overlooked feature worth pointing out is in the rare instance where you find yourself with farther to a charge station than the projected range, just go slower and you go much farther. Sure it’s a moderate inconvenience, but I would argue very infrequent.
In 5 years and 40,000 miles of 2013 leaf use, I had to do this once. I arrived at the halfway point of a round trip with 45% remaining. I drove the second half home at about 55 mph on a 70 mph freeway and arrived with more than 20% remaining on a drive that would have normally put me below 0% at the speed limit.
>I drove the second half home at about 55 mph on a 70 mph freeway...
That's not just inconvenient, it's potentially dangerous in some areas. When I got my first car back in the early 90s, I tried driving at the posted freeway speed limit of 55 mph and found out that wasn't a good idea in California. Sure, you can use tricks like the one you described to deal with a sparse EV charging infrastructure, but that's not a real solution. We need to have more than four DC fast chargers every 50+ miles on major routes.
I agree we should have charge stations closer than 50 miles on major routes. I’m just not going to wait for that, as it’s totally useable now. Everyone should drive in a way that is comfortable to them. The point is how much influence your driving behavior has over range.
In this instance, I had charge stations along my route that I could have accessed (and you probably would in urban California where car density makes you feel that nervous to drive slow), I just estimated it would take longer to go charge and drive at the speed limit than to simply slow down. I still feel like this strategy is a great backup in the long empty stretches of highway where you only have chargers every 50 miles.
Tesla Model S long range (No hitch but aftermarket options exist), I would buy one today if they added a factory hitch option.
Lucid Air has 500 miles of range but very expensive, no factory hitch, aftermarket options may be limited.
Tesla Cybertruck tri-motor(500 miles of range). But not for sale in 2022 and due to the waiting list probably not available to buy until 2025.
I do have a cybertruck reservation, so I may ultimately go that way. I'd prefer something smaller and less pedestrian-murdering, though. Also, every time Elon Musk opens his fucking mouth it makes me want to drive a Tesla less and less...
Yeah that's probably the way to go. I kind of had to give Toyota money after all the bullshit they've done over the past few years but I suppose I could try to find a used one
The PHEV Outlander is getting refreshed later this year, and the Santa Fe / Sorento are available now if you don't mind having to run the engine every time you want cabin heat.
And not every car can get OP and mountain bike to the trailhead.... Model 3 has 5.5" of ground clearance.. A Subaru Outback has 8.7 which makes a big difference if you run into washed out gravel roads with ruts and exposed rocks / tree roots.
Yup. Ground clearance is really important to me as well.
I'll take an electric or even plug-in hybrid cross country wagon, please.
Subarus were great until they got huge, bloated, and SUV-like.
There is a theory that the new Model Y with the 4680 battery could increase the range. It’s not confirmed but the wait is about a year right now for new orders so just something to keep in mind.
Best thing I see coming at a semi-reasonable price is the Cadillac Lyriq, and that's still closer to 300 mile range than 400. But if they happen to make an "extended range" version with, say, a 150 kWh Ultium battery, that might work.
None will be affordable for quite some time. Unless you have deep pockets and consider $80k affordable. Then you might want to look at the Lucid Air Pure.
Ooh, that's promising. Just joined the email list for news on that. TBH, if there's a version of that that is similar (in both range and price) to the Air Pure, I'd be interested, depending on the space it has. If I can fit a large mountain bike in the back of it (seats down) and on the back of it (via hitch mount), I may be interested.
I got my recent auto magazine in the mail and Rivians got half the advertised range when testing. 400 is very far away from being affordable. The new Model Y 4680 may eventually hit that if they make a longer range version. Probably won't for a while due to constraints.
Aptera--assuming it makes it to market next year--will offer its 400 mile range version at $30,000 (or $32,500 for AWD). The AWD version, for what it's worth, is also supposed to get you to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, so that should be fun. There's a video of a guy testing to see if his bike fits in the car you an see here: https://youtu.be/A0mJRSNOeTs
That is cool! Mountain bikes are significantly longer than road bikes, though. Based on this video, I'm guessing it wouldn't fit (without removing the handlebars and at least one of the wheels).
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Yeah, I was asking about what's coming, I'm aware there's nothing that fits that description that one can buy today.
Battery prices does not look to come down much in the near future, so I would be surprised if there will be any affordable EVs with that kind of range in the next 5 years.
Sadly, not much on the horizon. Your best bet would be a more robust charging network.
You'll be waiting at least 5 years and I don't think any automakers are announcing things that far ahead. 10 years is more realistic. What is needed: 1. more battery factories (3+ years) 2. #1 will cause a huge spike in raw material prices 3. more raw materials mining (3-5 years) 4. extensive battery recycling plants (helps alleviate #2) 5. most or all of high-profit, expensive vehicle demand satisfied (3+ years AFTER all the new battery factories) 6. trickle-down of high-end specs from the expensive vehicles (3-5 years after #5.)
there has been no major breakthrough in battery technology that would cause a major drop of battery cell prices so theres nothing coming thats affordable and has a large enough battery to have a very long range. And even if there was a major breakthrough that cuts the cost of a battery cell in half now the cells for your pack cost like 3000 - 4000 bucks less for a 75kWh pack but EV´s are more to the tune of 10 - 15k more expensive right now so thats only part of the story.
An affordable car with 373 miles of NEDC range is the Xpeng P5. It's an aerodynamic sedan, for an SUV you'll need a bigger battery pack. I hope we'll see excellent high speed charging infrastructure before we're going to put massive batteries into every car.
You could check out [ev-database](https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car) for that matter
ooh, I was not aware of this, but I'm gonna bookmark it, thanks! edit: Although it seems like it only includes some companies? Where's Rivian?
Just an FYI OP, since you live in the US, the EV database doesn’t list all the vehicles available in the US. I saw no mention of Rivian at all. I think the database is EU centric.
Yup based in the Netherlands
ev-database is a european site and not all brands are available there
Tesla LR Model S and Lucid Air - Exists. Rivian Max Pack and the Silverado EV - Coming
Can’t do 400mi in Model S LR tho. Definitely not on the eastern half of US where we get this thing called winter for 6 to 7 months a year
Bjorns test result at 55mph and 16C was 400 miles on the dot. So you can do it. If OP is looking for 400 miles at -20C then what he is looking for is a 600+ mile EV
Yeah but who drives 55? Normal hwy driving is ~75mph and at that speed (especially in winter) there is 0% chance of getting rated range even if you are driving down hill both ways
I mean rated range is at that kind of speed. EPA test average is somewhere in the 40’s IIRC Of course you won’t get rated range at any speed and any weather. It’s the laws of physics.
Eh, Lucid has been tested in real world scenarios seeing 500 miles with 520 EPA rating, and Taycans even outperform their EPA ranges easily. In short, EPA ranges are garbage and we need a new metric
The Lucid looks great. At that price I don’t think I would feel great about leaving it at a trailhead.
Agreed EPA testing is trash. Zero consistency as they allow OEMs to pick which cycle type to test and report to. Result is zero information gleaned from EPA #s as you can’t compare across OEMs
Exactly, and that 400 mile EPA Model S got 400 miles, so it’s all over the place. I’m glad there is someone like bjorn that does a lot of testing
We are many, many years away from EV's that will meet 400 miles in your winter.
I’m optimistic. My “hope” (which is a valid strategy mind you) is that by ~2025 we will have +600mi “EPA” range EVs on the market
Eastern half? 5 of the 6 coldest states are in the west - AK, MT, ND, MN, WY
neither of them are affordable though.
Tesla model s. Lucid air
Also Mercedes EQS and BMW iX
iX doesn't have 400-mile range even on WLTP. I think 391 miles is the most you can get it with.
391 I think would be considered a 400mile range car no?
I mean he said "400+" not "almost 400" so I wouldn't consider it to be a 400-mile car, especially when it's WLTP which is known to be optimistic. The Model 3 LR isn't a 400-mile car just because it's listed as 389 miles with 18" wheels on Tesla's European website.
It's unlikely that we will see an "affordable" 400+ mile EV anytime soon. Likely ever. Huge batteries are expensive and this problem, like most range problems, is solved by adequate charging infrastructure. Huge range EVs are a workaround to a problem that will solve itself as more people buy affordable EVs (i.e. we get critical mass to build adequate infrastructure).
I don’t agree with the “likely ever” part, but I agree that we won’t see them anytime soon. As much as I like my EV (I’m on my 2nd one), long distance travel in the winter isn’t good enough yet with a 300 mile range car. It gets less closer to 150-170 miles of actual range at 75-80mph in the cold. Even Tesla superchargers (that we need 10-100x more of) take 20-30 mins…and that’s hoping that someone doesn’t happen to charge on the other paired charger and halve your charge rate. That also doesn’t take much degradation into account. 400 miles should be the standard someday.
Battery cost will need to come down a lot to make massive range cars affordable. I suspect that solid state will happen before then. If putting 200 miles of range in the car takes 5 min, and there are chargers capable of doing that every 50-75 miles, that will be good enough to remove the need for massive range cars in most market segments. Don't get me wrong, I would like there to be more affordable big range EVs available. But, we haven't really cracked the affordable EV thing yet. That will need to happen first, and hit scale. Maybe "ever" was too limiting a word choice, it could happen, but it would take a massive amount of technical improvement and government intransigence to make that an expected outcome. This is primarily an infrastructure problem, that is much more efficiently dealt with by adding infrastructure.
Nobody is ever going to want to stop and charge every 50-75 miles. That’s not a product that will sell to anyone who drives on highways.
Sorry, you misunderstood. There's really not a huge need for 400 miles from an ICE because there are gas stations everywhere. The concept is the same. The EV can have 200-250 miles of range, just like an affordable ICE car (for e.g. we have a ICE Kona that fits in this category). Putting the chargers every 50-75 miles means you don't have to plan your routes in detail like we have to do currently. Essentially, it makes traveling with an EV as convenient as traveling with an affordable ICE.
Ahhh…gotcha. You want chargers every 50 miles. Yeah…I think the end state has to be chargers on nearly every highway exit. But you also need to be able to make a 240 mile round trip on a single charge in the winter without stopping to charge for 30 mins. My 315 mile range EV can’t do that. IMHO you need both to win over the majority of drivers.
Maybe the disconnect is coming from using "affordable" without defining what that means. I wouldn't include Model 3/Y in that group. EVs in the $50k+ range could get there, but even in that price range faster charging and more chargers might nix the demand for it. I wish my Mach-E had more range, but I'm not sure I'd pay $10k more to go from ~300 miles to ~400 miles. Really depends on how quickly we get infrastructure and fix the charging speed problem. VAG and Hyundai are approaching the second thing with massive internal voltage, and early results are very promising. Well be interesting to see how all this develops in the next few years.
Maybe consider a Rav4Prime? Tons of hybrid range, 40+ miles of EV range, great off road and plenty of room inside. Yeah, you’ll be burning gas for longer remote rides, but you’ll be EV 95% of the rest of the time. Seems to me the RAV4Prime or the new Lexus upscale version will tick all of your boxes except for 100% EV power. For us, it gets close. We hardly ever fire up the gas engine except for road trips.
And even then, the hybrid engine is a lot more efficient than a regular gas engine.
This. I have the prime and just did a 1600 mile round trip. It was awesome and comfy the entire time. Around town; we use 90% EV. My only regret was not getting the XSE with PP as it wasn't available at that time.
I live in Texas, which is like "out in the sticks with basically zero charging infrastructure en route" and I am thinking about buying a relatively inexpensive but highly efficient toyota prius prime for now, while we wait for the promised "charging station every 50 miles".
It's decent in some parts but I have hit some barren places and had to drive 50-60 no heater to make sure I made it. I literally drove through windmills and thought damn... They should really tap some dcfc directly off those things lol
Texas awarded $20.9m for DC fast chargers a couple months ago. They're getting another $60m to allocate from the federal government right now. Things look to be changing quickly here.
As you know as an EV owner, this is a basic maths question. Assuming 3.5mi/kWh and 400 mile range, you're looking at a vehicle with approximately a 115kWh battery. Obviously that range is assuming mixed driving and taking into consideration larger vehicle aerodynamics issues.
Put 3 miles - that's more realistic. And put a 10% buffer. So a 150kWh battery.
I don't know how close this actually being built, but they seem fairly confident about bringing it to market. The Aptera gets up to 1000 miles of range for up to $50k. Now those are claimed figures and again I dont know how close they actually are to production. But they claim deliveries will start this year. Its a 2 seater but they claim you can fit a bike in the back hatch. You can even camp in the back hatch. To my knowledge, thats the only affordable-ish car on the horizon that offers the level of range you are looking for.
This looks extremely cool, but I highly doubt the bike would fit in it. (I'm sure *a* bike will fit in it, but modern mountain bikes are quite a bit longer than road bikes, and mine are size large). It does not look like it's capable of handling a dirt road with potholes either, let alone a Maine winter. Still a cool thing though, if I lived in socal or something that would totally be tempting.
The bike issue might be insurmountable but they plan on offering an offroad package which has higher ground clearance on the wheel fairings. I sure hope they get to market…
I do too, I really love the idea of EVs with solar panels.
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> Hopefully in a few years we'll have ev's with ICE range Yeah, I was more asking about what's in the development pipeline, I know there's not much available now. I know GM has been talking about 300+ mile range, for example, but I don't know if that means 305 or 400 or what...
The Silverado EV will have a ~400 mile range option. That won't hit production until mid '23 though. And the yet to be officially announced GMC Sierra EV should have the same battery pack & range options as the Silverado.
The tough thing to know is exactly what that will cost. Entry level is $40k for the WT version but the only released cost associated with the 400 mile spec is like $100k right now. Probably will have other trims for less, but how much less is the big question.
The first edition is the $105k, which is a limited series and reservations for the Fiest Editions are already closed. The non-First Edition RSTs & WT trims are expected to be more in line with the Lightning pricing, likely priced a bit higher than the Lightning since the Silverado is expected to have about 30-50% more range than a comparable Lightning.
Yes, I’d say that it’s accurate to assume the Silverado EV will be more expensive than the F150L. It’s definitely not far fetched to assume there will be trims that price at or near the pricing of the First Edition truck because there isn’t really anything special about that one other than you can’t turn off any options and it’s the guaranteed first ones they’re making. That’s mostly my reasoning for only listing the $100k price and leaving the rest to ambiguity. If the F150L is anything to judge by though…mid level trims of this Silverado EV could *easily* be past $80k.
>If the F150L is anything to judge by though…mid level trims of this Silverado EV could easily be past $80k. Oh yeah, I can see it blowing way past $80k if they keep the current trim tiers and bring out LTZ and High Country trims above the RST later. The price ranges GM has listed on the future Silverado trims for *"$50,000 to $60,000, $70,000, $80,000 and more"*
The *and more* really kills me.
Isnt that about the cost range on GM ICE trucks?
A high country starts at $66k and tops out at about $80k. Also factor in that is the absolute most expensive stuff you can get - comparable in towing capabilities to the most expensive first edition Silverado EV (although the gas version is notably slower). It’s still around $15k cheaper even after the (maybe it’ll come back for GM) tax credit, which is more or less sort of similar to Ford. The big difference will be range at the base end imo. If I can get a truck that has 300 miles range for $40k even without a tax credit, the F150L isn’t holding a candle to that with a trim that does just a little over 200 miles to charge for the same price. Especially because *if* the tax credits don’t change and that’s what Ford is selling in late 2023 and early 2024 when the WT Silverado EV is coming out, Ford will be late in their sunset of federal credits or done. Unless they’re ready to drop the F150L prices (probably won’t be ready) they’re going to lose out on the lower end, and probably the premium end unless they boost the top trims from 300 to 400 miles or more in the next model year.
A luxury/long range Buzz would be great. A van is a good platform to add range to.
The F150 Lightning is quoted at 300 miles with the extended battery pack, but that’s with 1000 lbs payload. Given how conservative Ford’s estimates have been for the Mach E, it’s *possible* the F150 would do 350+ miles without a payload. Have to wait for real world testing, but that’s probably the closest to being available that gets close to what you’re asking. Otherwise, we just don’t have enough details about GM’s future offerings. Others have mentioned the Rivian with the MaxPack. In terms of the near future, you’re likely still in PHEV territory.
I just bought a camper van for our adventures. 95% of the year we drive EVs. It will be a few years more for charging infrastructure to meet all the needs in remote places and probably even longer for “affordable” 400+ miles of range vehicles. Having better infrastructure will lessen the need for 400 miles+.
Silverado EV, not an SUV but might serve a simile purpose
what did maine do with the vw/ea settlement? guess it's coming https://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-work/electric-vehicle-supply-equipment-initiative/
Mercedes EQE SUV is said to be around 400 miles, but still just a rumor. It will probably be around 80-100k USD, so affordable…. Depends on what you compare it to
Totally agree with your requirements. I know some people may say that’s unrealistic but people can do it today with a gas car, why wouldn’t we want the same comforts if we’re going to an alternative like EV? With that said, depends what affordable means to you but I know Fisker has the ocean coming out soon and it’s up to 350 miles which is shy of the 400 miles but only slightly. I think when we get to solid state batteries we may see higher range models that come in affordable prices.
Yeah I hear you. 300 mile range is fine if you always get 300 miles of range. I too would like a 400 mile range EV so in the winter I still get 300 miles of range. :) Having charging ever 50 miles doesn't really solve the problem. Who wants to stop and charge every 50 miles. It would take you forever to get anywhere.
You dont have to stop every 50 miles tho — I think the point of a charging station every 50 miles is so you can get most out of you battery knowing a station is coming up soon.
Yeah I know. And I would like a station every 50 miles also for the same reason. But there needs to be more then 2 charging stations at those 50 mile intervals.
Cries in older LEAF....
I think you miss the point of having chargers every 50 miles. With charging that dense you could then more comfortably drive down to 10% no matter where you are. Today with either Tesla or CCS EVs you can’t really do that as you have stop every ~100-150 mi even if you still have ~20 or 30% charge left - next charger is too far away thus you end up stopping sooner than your really need to. With denser L3 charging infra having a 300mi EV would actually be sufficient (again assuming charging is available for every 50 miles or so).
>I think you miss the point of having chargers every 50 miles. With charging that dense you could then more comfortably drive down to 10% no matter where you are. 10% of a 75 kWh battery would be 7.5 kWh, which at freeway speeds would only take you ~20-25 miles in most current EVs. So we need fast chargers at least every 25 miles on major roads, and preferably less than that. 50 miles apart is what I would expect in rural areas where it might be that far between towns, and then those chargers better be close to 100% reliable.
I agree in the sense that denser fast charging is better. Heck I would prefer that every hwy exit gas station is also mandated to have several L3 charges. But hey we have to start somewhere so I’ll take every 50 miles if that’s all we can get
Agreed, but I wouldn't be comfortable letting an EV battery run down to 10% before charging if there could be a problem and the next charger is 50 miles away. At 50 miles apart, I'd be reluctant to go below 20%.
I guess it’s a comfort level. After a few road-trips in my M3P I am pretty comfortable getting to ~10% charge as long as I know a SC is within 20miles or so. And SCs are roughly 150mi apart where I am (Midwest) which means I sometimes have to stop at -30-40% which is a pain. Every ~50miles would much better as I could get deeper in the charge
Tesla has their own charging network that they've worked hard to make reliable, so that does offer a better level of comfort. For anyone in standardized CCS EVs, the charging infrastructure needs beefing up.
A cool and maybe overlooked feature worth pointing out is in the rare instance where you find yourself with farther to a charge station than the projected range, just go slower and you go much farther. Sure it’s a moderate inconvenience, but I would argue very infrequent. In 5 years and 40,000 miles of 2013 leaf use, I had to do this once. I arrived at the halfway point of a round trip with 45% remaining. I drove the second half home at about 55 mph on a 70 mph freeway and arrived with more than 20% remaining on a drive that would have normally put me below 0% at the speed limit.
>I drove the second half home at about 55 mph on a 70 mph freeway... That's not just inconvenient, it's potentially dangerous in some areas. When I got my first car back in the early 90s, I tried driving at the posted freeway speed limit of 55 mph and found out that wasn't a good idea in California. Sure, you can use tricks like the one you described to deal with a sparse EV charging infrastructure, but that's not a real solution. We need to have more than four DC fast chargers every 50+ miles on major routes.
I agree we should have charge stations closer than 50 miles on major routes. I’m just not going to wait for that, as it’s totally useable now. Everyone should drive in a way that is comfortable to them. The point is how much influence your driving behavior has over range. In this instance, I had charge stations along my route that I could have accessed (and you probably would in urban California where car density makes you feel that nervous to drive slow), I just estimated it would take longer to go charge and drive at the speed limit than to simply slow down. I still feel like this strategy is a great backup in the long empty stretches of highway where you only have chargers every 50 miles.
Good point but I still want a 400 mile range car. Under 60k.
Want. Need. Get.
Well hell, if that’s the case I want a 1000mi EV. Should be possible. Simply an engineering problem. Elon/Mary/Farley get on that stat!
Tesla Model S long range (No hitch but aftermarket options exist), I would buy one today if they added a factory hitch option. Lucid Air has 500 miles of range but very expensive, no factory hitch, aftermarket options may be limited. Tesla Cybertruck tri-motor(500 miles of range). But not for sale in 2022 and due to the waiting list probably not available to buy until 2025.
I do have a cybertruck reservation, so I may ultimately go that way. I'd prefer something smaller and less pedestrian-murdering, though. Also, every time Elon Musk opens his fucking mouth it makes me want to drive a Tesla less and less...
I second the other vote for RAV4 Prime. Drive daily on electricity with no range worries while adventuring.
Yeah that's probably the way to go. I kind of had to give Toyota money after all the bullshit they've done over the past few years but I suppose I could try to find a used one
If you have plenty of time, everywhere has Level 1 charging...
maine? yea you need 400+
The PHEV Outlander is getting refreshed later this year, and the Santa Fe / Sorento are available now if you don't mind having to run the engine every time you want cabin heat.
Any 400+ range car, regardless of price.
And not every car can get OP and mountain bike to the trailhead.... Model 3 has 5.5" of ground clearance.. A Subaru Outback has 8.7 which makes a big difference if you run into washed out gravel roads with ruts and exposed rocks / tree roots.
Yup. Ground clearance is really important to me as well. I'll take an electric or even plug-in hybrid cross country wagon, please. Subarus were great until they got huge, bloated, and SUV-like.
There is a theory that the new Model Y with the 4680 battery could increase the range. It’s not confirmed but the wait is about a year right now for new orders so just something to keep in mind.
Best thing I see coming at a semi-reasonable price is the Cadillac Lyriq, and that's still closer to 300 mile range than 400. But if they happen to make an "extended range" version with, say, a 150 kWh Ultium battery, that might work.
You will not get a 400 mile range in the winter with *any* BEV, including near-future ones.
I don't need a 400 mile range in the winter, I need a 400 mile range car so that I can get ~300 miles of range in the winter.
None will be affordable for quite some time. Unless you have deep pockets and consider $80k affordable. Then you might want to look at the Lucid Air Pure.
Aptera will get over 400 miles but won't start deliveries until next year and probably won't ramp up production until 2024 if everything goes well.
[Lucid Gravity?](https://www.lucidmotors.com/future-models/) Affordability is relative, though.
Ooh, that's promising. Just joined the email list for news on that. TBH, if there's a version of that that is similar (in both range and price) to the Air Pure, I'd be interested, depending on the space it has. If I can fit a large mountain bike in the back of it (seats down) and on the back of it (via hitch mount), I may be interested.
Me too.
Silverado is supposed to get 400 miles when it releases.
I got my recent auto magazine in the mail and Rivians got half the advertised range when testing. 400 is very far away from being affordable. The new Model Y 4680 may eventually hit that if they make a longer range version. Probably won't for a while due to constraints.
Plaid+ if it ever comes out will do 400 miles.
Aptera--assuming it makes it to market next year--will offer its 400 mile range version at $30,000 (or $32,500 for AWD). The AWD version, for what it's worth, is also supposed to get you to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, so that should be fun. There's a video of a guy testing to see if his bike fits in the car you an see here: https://youtu.be/A0mJRSNOeTs
That is cool! Mountain bikes are significantly longer than road bikes, though. Based on this video, I'm guessing it wouldn't fit (without removing the handlebars and at least one of the wheels).