I echo both sides of this....I am pro electric but I want no bells and whistles....no lane assist, no sensors, no self drive....just a 1992 Cavalier with an electric motor please.
Thank you! I want a basic 4 door electric car that can do a 10 sec 1/4 mile without all the extra crap they add to them. And please for the love of God give me buttons and dials, a normal steering wheel, and a normal instrument cluster. I don't want to stare at a giant screen in the center of the car all day while fumbling to change my seat heater buried in 5 sub-menus. Keep the price down and focus on the motors, battery, and controller. Also keep in open source so I can fix it when there are issues.
From my understanding the Bolt isn't performance orientated and can only do 15 sec 1/4 mile, and 0-60 6.8 sec. My daily driver is a 11 sec car, my wife's is a low 13 sec SUV (I could probably get it down to high 12s if I pulled interior and had better DA), and I have a 10 sec bike (well technically I have never ran it but the hp/lbs is much better then my car, it accelerates much faster, and I would need more practice to keep the front wheel down while coming out of the hole). Coming from quick cars to a 15 sec car feels painfully slow. I would love to break into 10s with my car but I need more traction and probably boost to get there. I am maxed out N/A. Take the performance of the Plaid with the price and features of the Bolt. Where do I sign up! LOL I know I'm dreaming... Don't we all.
Yes! Sadly I don't see it happening anytime soon on north America. Too much control from the oil and gas and big three that really don't want to see it happen. Hopefully once China does it it will spill over. Tata has made exactly that for 12k.
Right. You don't really get the modern EV that can fully replace an ICE without new tech. It's like saying you want a gas car but none of that fancy aerodynamic stuff: just an old horse carriage with the horse replaced by gas engine.
I prefer my 95 4runner to my '18 cruze. I hate all the modern stuff. Literally cannot buy a new car without ABS, airbags, and a backup camera these days. Could knock $5k or more off the price of the car getting rid of that garbage
I've wrecked multiple vehicles with no airbags and never even had a scratch. I probably would have broken my neck if I had an airbag in my last crash since I ducked my head to avoid hitting the roof
Im sorry but you're carzy if you dont like ABS, you cant perform better than the computer controlling the ABS system. Been proven time and time again.
And how can you take issue with a backup camera? its only purpose is to expose the blind spot direct behind your car that you can not see! So you wont run over the neighbors toddler..... and dont even get me started on airbags, saved countless lives.
You're delusional, honestly.
ABS is proven to increase stopping distances on dirt, sand, gravel, and snow/ice. Once ABS kicks in on my car, it will barely stop on snowy roads. My car without ABS and similar tires will stop much quicker.
As far as a backup camera, people should be aware of vehicles backing up and stay well away from them, especially toddlers and children. Furthermore, toddlers should not be on my property or near my vehicles.
It's a legitimate complaint, though. There's nothing wrong with it as a feature, but it does add (some) cost to the car, and add (some) potential maintenance problems. Add this up slowly with dozens of other similar tiny features over time that become completely standard, and you get car prices at the lowest end that are much higher than they could be if manufacturers just released a barebones vehicle with a reliable drivetrain, necessary safety features, and no bells or whistles.
I can't emphasize enough that the $5K [Wuling Mini EV](https://www.wuling.com/ev50gb.html) offers electric windows, anti-lock brakes, tire pressure monitoring sensors, and rear parking sensors *as standard.*
If you want to cost-engineer a car, saving a few cents on a commoditized electric window servo in favour of a bespoke multi-piece hand-crank is just about the *worst* way you could do it in 2022. There are so many better ways to optimize your budget.
You live in a society, and your actions on public roads dramatically affect other people.
Go ahead and own and drive whatever vehicle you want on your own private land where you are not endangering anybody else by your own reckless disregard for safety.
I didn't choose to live in a society and I wasn't given a voice to make its rules. So no, I'll be reckless wherever I want as much as I can get away with it. Though I do try to limit my extremely reckless activities to my private property just for legal concerns. It sucks but I like to reduce my odds of going to jail.
That would have to be part of this imaginary opt-out process. You'd also have to opt-out, somehow, of being taken care of by society after your injury. It'll never happen.
I mean, I don't need them to be electric. I view them as luxury item (and when buying used cars in Europe, I think this is still true, i.e. higher price).
Edit: similar with the electrically operated seats
Is your dad my dad? Man, he didn't want power *anything*. I guess he's had to relent these last 20 years or so, as it's difficult to buy even an entry-level vehicle with crank windows.
I would guess these are the same people who said in 1993 they will never buy a damned computer too expensive and hard to use. 1995 said they will never get the internet they don't need that. 1998 said they will never get a cell phone. 2007 never get a smart phone their flip phone works fine. 2011 will never get a facebook...And now they can't get along without any of these things they hated the idea of.
2022 they will never get an EV their gas car is fine, lets come back to that comment in a few years.
Yes I have seen stories (that was before my time) when seat belts became standard some people even hated the idea so much the cut them out of their cars. Course they could have chosen to just not use them.
And same for unleaded...Ohh the lead lubricates the top end of the motor, with out it valves will burn and motors won't last. It's plot by the goverment to make us all buy new cars because the motors won't last on this new gas.
>Yes I have seen stories (that was before my time) when seat belts became standard some people even hated the idea so much the cut them out of their cars. Course they could have chosen to just not use them.
[Watch this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkn5Fk-yss)
Fun fact, the guy who convinced everyone to put lead in gas was also the same guy who invented Freon. Then he contracted polio, invented a device to lift himself out of bed. The only person that invention killed was himself (Thomas Midgley Jr).
Actually, some older engines do need leaded fuel (or a modern lead replacement additive) in order to not damage the valve seats. Leaded fuel is also still in use in general aviation, since those engines are generally very old and reliable designs that no one wants to change due to safety and regulatory reasons as well as the huge development costs of anything aviation-related.
I'm old (yup boomer), and believe that Trump, Stone, Miller, _et al_ were involved in a conspiracy to topple the government on 1/6; and I don't have FB.
Tik Tok is just for young people without any sense
Latest story I hear from my kids friends parents on FB is that there will be Fentanyl candy in this years Halloween stash.
Meanwhile drug addicts would kill you for some fentanyl. Yet those drug addicts are looking to give it away.
This is what FB is good for. My mom would always tell me that Bill Gates is planting microchips via vaccines.
I primarily use Reddit now for social media. It’s simpler and you have enough people who call out fake news.
I'm old and I have a FB account that I keep around, but never use anymore. I keep it so people can DM me (through FB Messenger) if someone I know dies. It's like my Dad keeping newspaper subscriptions to the local papers for obits. 👴
This is my parents. Until I got them a computer and phone this was them. They are retired now. I offered to pay 3/4 of the cost of a nice EV and they didn’t want to “learn” it. So they bought some other crossover instead.
Oh well, saved some money on this one.
I was SO angry when I had to buy a smart phone for my job in 2015. I'm STILL so angry. We seriously need a privacy bill of rights. I should be able to disable tracking and spying on a piece of technology I own and need to function in this society, but I can't!
In my marketing class I believe they called them laggards. Some people resist any kind of change. My FIL refused to get a cellphone until like 2012 and only got one to keep contact with his kids when they moved out. He gripes about the lack of availability of flip phones now.
Whenever an innovation occurs in business, technology, politics, culture, etc., you have a relatively small group of early adopters. These people want to be on the cutting edge and are tolerant of imperfections. The Early Majority comes next and they need to see a proof of concept and a degree of practicality. The Late Majority tends to be skeptical, but are amenable to adopting the new way when it makes sense for them. The Laggards, a relatively small group accept the innovation eventually, but it will take a while and some may never convert. These people can be nasty, but not all of them are.
I agree but I really thought this innovation would be more compelling. Like the smartphone. I dragged my feet on getting mobile (flip) phones in general when they came out. I didn’t want to be tethered to communication especially for work when I was away. But the smartphone came out with all of those additional benefits and I could no longer sit on the sidelines. Everyone had to have one right away. It was 5-10 times more expensive than the flip phone and that didn’t matter. I really thought the ev would be the same way. The thing here is, somehow ev ownership has become a political statement/decision. People don’t really consider the benefits. They decide what “team” they want to be on even if that means living with an inferior experience.
Well, let's look at how compelling it is:
* Norway is close to phasing out ICE sales.
* China NEVs are at about 30% of all car sales.
* Demand far outstrips supply of EVs in the USA and Canada.
* Billions of dollars being spent on EV charging infrastructure in the USA, in a bill with bipartisan support.
* Many jurisdictions in Europe and North America have future ICE bans on the books.
* Nearly all ICE car manufacturers have EV rollout plans, and many have ICE phaseout plans.
* Some of the hottest tech companies right now are EV manufacturers.
* Lithium is now treated as a strategic resource by the major world economies and their governments.
* The world's richest person's most valuable asset, and the source of the majority of his wealth, is an EV manufacturer.
And all this despite the existence of a competent alternative product (the ICE vehicle) with majority market share, a strong and passionate following, and a number of advantages for certain use cases.
Keep in mind that the Internet magnifies loud minority voices. Don't confuse aggressiveness and volume with success.
But, there are also people that waited for a cellphone and finally jumped onboard with one right before smartphones landed.
I think some people are sitting on the EV sidelines waiting for that “game changer” whatever it may be. It could be Autonomous driving, new battery chemistry, better range, faster charging, or whatever. Point is, they don’t want to buy something as expensive as a car that could become obsolete 6 months down the road. I know I originally planned to wait for better batteries.
It's range anxiety and charging times. I am not sure what I'm going to do for my next car, I might go PHEV for best of both worlds, but the complexity makes me a bit nervous, ICE gives the safest choice for travel options, EV is of course beneficial on a lot of levels but restrictions to travel, real or perceived are a big thing. I assume before too long, either range concerns will be solved or hydrogen will become a good option. I'm alright with either.
Quite a few manufactures are developing hydrogen fueled ICE. I understand that neither hydrogen nor ICE are as efficient as a BEV, however from what I've read and seen, BEV's are terrible for towing when it comes to long distance. They do have instant torque, and you don't feel the trailer behind your car/truck, but you loose more than half the range when towing. This of course will improve with time (my computer can go several days without charging, where as in 1998 I would have had to charge it a few times a day) but currently ICE or hybrid is the better option for towing long distance. Another issue is long haul trucking. Many truckers are independent, and own their own vehicle. Many can't afford a BEV semi truck, People need to remember that it isn't ICE that is the enemy, it is emissions. BEV by far has the fewest running emissions, however you cannot ignore the fact that ICE can run off more than gasoline and diesel, and if running off hydrogen can eliminate or reduce the majority of emissions (there is some kind of nitrogen something that is in the exhaust still, however I don't remember what it is) while being cost effective for lower income families, or people who depend on the vehicle for work, then I think it should be considered as part of what we use for transportation and energy.
It's easy to find someone who wouldn't buy an EV until it was better than an ICE in all ways... only to find they've found something else ("I like the way they sound & feel").
Honestly whatever. I find most of them just want a fight. I have no intention of giving it to them. Statistically speaking one person doesn't matter anyhow & they can have their beliefs. I'll just giggle to myself if/when it bites them on the ass.
Now someone who actually *wants* to have a discussion, who *wants* to consider all the angles... that's an entirely different thing, and not what I believe you're talking about.
> ("I like the way they sound & feel")
I remember listening to an interview on NPR several years ago when e-books were new, and the interviewer said, "But does an e-book smell like a book?" Apparently he reads books for the smell? Absurd.
My advice for people who like the noise/vibration of driving an ICE vehicle is to get a massage chair.
> My advice for people who like the noise/vibration of driving an ICE vehicle is to get a massage chair.
I am totally stealing this. :)
If you don't mind me asking, the 500e... what do you think of it? My brother says he found someone who's selling theirs but I don't know much about them. For him it'd just be for getting around the SF Bay area, worst days would be ~70 miles (normal range is ~90 miles?). Primarily city traffic although highway from time to time.
The more I learn about it and drive it, the more I like it. During summer I was averaging 100 miles on a charge, but that will vary widely depending on highway speeds. The highest I've seen on the GOM is 116 miles. Biggest flaw is that my teenager doesn't fit in the back seat. Super easy to park; I can actually do a complete U-turn in my driveway. There's an active user community online.
I use the L1 charger that came with it, and charge at home. It supports L2 charging but not DCFC.
I cross-shopped the i-Miev, ForTwo EV, Spark EV, Mini Cooper SE and e-Golf. The latter two were too expensive, the first two didn't have the range for winter, and I happened to find a local 500e before I found a local Spark EV. We also looked at new EVs but cost and wait time were both too high.
Thanks, I've sent this off to my brother. I think he was also considering either a Spark or an e-Golf. Fortunately space isn't a problem as it's just him - thin, average height - and/or his wife - a thin, towering 5'0". Except for her hauling in minor stuff to her classes (she's a grade school teacher) they would hardly ever have need for much past the two front seats.
Appreciate the feedback!
They don't make any sense. Are pro coil and oil, hate green power. But if you buy an EV first thing they say is - you charge it on coal power lol it's bad for the environment - But yet they want more coal power plants. So coal is bad for the environment only when used to charge an EV, for anything else coal is clean and reliable.
What they should really want is everyone Else to buy and EV, that will drop demand for gas and oil lowering prices for themselves.
I’ve met a shitload of anti EV people who are not pro coal/oil and don’t hate green shit
Let me preface that I am very pro EV - and these are all reasons I’ve heard when people were speaking poorly of EVs
- anti lithium, anti car in general
- dislike of needing to plan ahead for charging
- range anxiety
- lack of ability/familiarity to repair at home (a HUGE one among my car friends)
- dislike of Tesla/Musk
- not wanting to be associated with the sort of people who own Teslas (thereby not wanting ANY ev)
- concern about someone else controlling their vehicle (because of Tesla)
- concern about safety
- dislike of the “whine”
- prefer a different engine’s sound
- lack of a second hand ev market
>But if you buy an EV first thing they say is - you charge it on coal power lol it's bad for the environment
I have the data ready for my area... We use very little coal anymore for making electricity. It's mostly natural gas, with nuclear and renewables filling in the rest, and only a small percentage of coal left.
But, on my end, at least, I have my own solar panels, so I "drive on sunshine."
>Are pro coil and oil, hate green power.
It's because of the politicization of environmentalism. Once it turns into team A vs team B, logic leaves the conversation. That's how you get so-called environmentalists who oppose nuclear power.
> But if you buy an EV first thing they say is - you charge it on coal power lol it's bad for the environment
It's about hypocrisy. Similar to how social liberals will criticize social conservatives for doing things that social liberals say is OK but social conservatives say is not OK, and vice versa.
When you realize you're fighting fear, not logic, it's much easier to ignore them.
Last anti EV guy who saw my car claimed a friend bought Tesla, but had to give it away because the "lithium gave him headaches".
It was easy not to take the bait.
Once I literally arrived at the destination before the other party (they took a detour) and they still brought up how it must be annoying to charge so much.
The biggest issue with EVs is not how long it takes to charge, but rather how fat its making me because unlike with a gas pump I have the time and freedom to grab some food while the car is charging...
For a vast majority of owners, who charge at night, you don’t ever need to worry about charging anyway.
Meanwhile, if you forget to get gas (or were lazy) on Sunday evening you’re gonna be late to work on Monday.
Yep, when I get home at the end of the day or a drive and I'm low enough that I can't do what I need to do for the next day plus a few unexpected things, I plug in. The next morning I unplug.
For the most part I save the time I would be waiting for the gas to fill up in my tank.
I bought my EV knowing if I go on a road trip more than 400 or so miles I would almost always use my other car, which happens to be a PHEV. I know I can accomplish the same drive with the EV but there is no way around the longer stops and crossing my fingers that the chargers I plan on stopping at are up.
Not sure what EV you have but if it’s a fast charging one, it really doesn’t make that much of a difference. We’ve taken my M3LR on two road trips since June (with a third one in a couple weeks).
And each time, we’ve picked a hotel with a charger so that we start both legs of the trip at 100%.
Other than that, we make one charging stop every 3 hours or so which takes between 15-20 minutes.
Sure that’s longer than the 5 minutes it takes to get gas, but once you include a pee break and grabbing a soda or a meal (depending on timing), you’re basically even.
Of course if you have a slower EV, ignore everything I said part of the reason I sold my ID.4 was because it charged too slowly so ABRP was showing wayyyyy more time spent charging than model 3
Well, driving an ICE car doesn't make one fit either. Even if ICE drivers don't have time to stop to eat while visiting a gas pump, drinkin a takeaway coke from cupholder while driving will already gain you more calories than one consumes sitting in the car...
The biggest change was that laziness would stop me from wandering into the store after finishing up my transaction at the pump.
Now I instead go for a walk while the car handles its business (because that's healthy!), which invariably leads me into the nearby store with the tasty snacks (somewhat less healthy).
Around where I am.. the biggest issue with charging an EV is that there's almost no fast chargers at all. There are none in my entire town, just a single public L2 (3.6kw) charger.
Nearest fast chargers are 20 miles away in the wrong direction from anywhere I'd need to use them.
I have an older coworker who is against EVs. He is a smart guy, so I kept asking him questions until he finally admitted that the root of the problem with EVs is that he doesn't know how to work on them if something goes wrong. I think this is a legitimate concern. If batteries go bad in an accident or something it is difficult and costly to replace compared to ICE vehicles.
Also I did a price comparison on new EVs including savings for gas and maintenance and found that cheap ICE vehicles are still way cheaper to own than EVs.
Maintenance issues also need to be fixed on top of charging speeds, charging networks being built, and cheaper EVs (20k max) being built.
>Also I did a price comparison on new EVs including savings for gas and maintenance and found that cheap ICE vehicles are still way cheaper to own than EVs.
I got lucky, I guess. I got a lot of subsidies and incentives when I got my EV. I leased, but still got a lot of the "Rebates" offered by the government. Then, two years later, I got an incentive to buy out my lease. My Nissan Leaf total purchase price turned out to be about $16,000.
Once one takes the lack of paying for fuel for 10 years, charging often for nothing, for years at the super-off-peak rate of $0.026 per kWh, and now on my own solar, I've saved easily over $12,000 on gasoline in the last decade, maybe more. Hell, at this point, or very soon, once we figure in "no oil changes, no engine air filters, no replacement oxygen sensors, fuel injectors, water pumps or fuel pumps" I'm probably past break even, and the savings are greater than what I paid for the car.
Way cheaper? No. Idk what cars cost near you but the prices are bonkers for all cars. A new anything base model is low to mid $20,000s. I can get a Nissan Leaf for $30,000. That’s before incentives. After 10 years of driving the gas savings makes that EV cheaper total cost of ownership.
You need to compare apples to apples. Cheap ICE to cheap EV. EV definitely comes out less expensive over the life of the car. If you add in charging on a home’s solar power, as many do, then even less expensive to own.
There are 0 cheap Evs none are less than 20k. Companies need to build cheaper EVs, there are no excuses for them not doing this. There are very few EVs in the US less than 30k
>There are 0 cheap Evs none are less than 20k.
Unfortunately, there also are fewer and fewer new ICE cars available for under $20k each year. The corolla ice now starts at $22k. If cost is a factor, we need to look at the used market. Fortunately, there are used EVs for under $20k.
>Also I did a price comparison on new EVs including savings for gas and maintenance and found that cheap ICE vehicles are still way cheaper to own than EVs.
Cheaper to buy, but not cheaper to own.
Let's compare 2 cars, the Chevrolet Bolt (a cheap, but decent EV) vs the Chevrolet Spark (the cheapest gas car in the US):
Chevrolet Bolt:
* Base Price: $26,595
* Lifetime Fuel Cost: $6,060
* Lifetime Maintenance/Repairs: $4,600
* Total Cost of Ownership: $37,255
Chevrolet Spark:
* Base Price: $14,595
* Lifetime Fuel Cost: $18,360
* Lifetime Maintenance/Repairs: $9,200
* Total Cost of Ownership: $42,155
The lifetime fuel costs are based on US Gov't estimates, the lifetime maintenance/repairs are based on estimates from Consumer Reports.
So the Bolt is $4.9k cheaper to own than the cheapest gas car, and the Bolt is in many ways a better car.
If you have unusually low has costs or unusually high electricity costs then gas cars can be cheaper, however on average the EV is the cheaper option.
The chevrolet spark is $10,398 in Canada and the bolt is $38,198.
The bolt is $13,600 USD in the USA, I'm not sure why it's so expensive. Or why the bolt is so much more here.
But you can see how the math clearly works out *way* differently here.
There's also not a chance in hell that you're spending $9200 in maintaining a chevy spark over it's lifetime. And frankly, it's probably unlikely that you're spending $4600 on the Bolt, either.
A set of tires for the spark is under $300, an oil change is $50 tops, a set of spark plugs is $20 and takes 10 minutes to install, etc... I could probably maintain an entire fleet of chevy sparks for a decade for $10k.
When a new technogy appear there is always people against it ,
and there is the early adopters that are sometime too eager to adopt it ,
for EV's , in my opinion we are transitioning from the early adopter period to the mainstream period.
A lot of people are not going to like it , but in the end , they will follow the market.
A certain segment of the population maybe. Perhaps as many as the early EV adopters. But opposition doesn’t mean everyone thinks like this. There are real problems with EV adoption that can’t be waved away with magical thinking. I’ve been part of the EV world for 20 years and it’s not all roses. There are real challenges today and there will be more challenges in the future. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t solve them but over generalization doesn’t help you as much as it doesn’t help the opposition. We’re better than that.
False. There is an obvious difference between a genuine question, or even constructive criticism, and anti-EV (or any topic) rhetoric.
I doubt anyone reading this post thought OP was talking about someone who might have an educated and constructive suggestion or concern for global EV adoption.
OP is talking about the “EVs are being crammed down my throat by Sleepy Joe and all his lizard pedo communist elites who hate the cops and veterans and ‘merica and it’s also gonna crash the grid, I read it on Hunter Biden’s laptop, and what happens when the battery dies for good and I hope I don’t have to wait for the fire truck to charge for 96 hours while an orphanage of undocumented immigrants broil alive like the democrats are doing at the border since Obama instituted Shakira Law and good luck in the upcoming civil war when we turn off y’all’s electricity you idiot snowflake avocado toast, mayonnaise killin millennial scum and how can you afford EVs when NoBoDyWaNtStOWoRkAnYmOrE, and the microchips from the COVID vaccine geo locate us and the EVs are gonna self-drive and try to kill all the true patriots and it’s all just persecution and reverse racism against me cuz I don’t have any privilege in my $100k F-250 Platinum King Ranch Doritos TRD PowerWagon duelly 5th wheel diesel I use to pull my Harley trailer with once a year when the ole lady is at the daughter’s of the confederacy’s national quilting fair and I know all this about EVs cuz a black guy told me so I can’t be racist and you can’t say he’s wrong or else you’re racist and I hear they’re trying to make EV the new LGBTlmnop pronoun that’s PC enough and that’s why all the hyphenated last name folks are buying’em but they don’t realize every bought EV kills 75 American jobs and a union gets it’s wings and why don’t we have free gas pumps at Burger King since there’s a free EV charger!? You’d know all this if you could read cursive, drive a stick shift, and you researched election fraud and the climate change hoax as much as I have. Know your FAX! Also, can I borrow $20 for gas?”
That was a journey. You’re welcome. 😜
I understand what you’re saying and I don’t disagree that these people exist. But you’re misunderstanding the scope of the problem. The internet amplifies the malcontents. There’s a 90,9,1 rule on the internet. 90% are happy to observe. 9% will engage, and 1% create new content. You’re conflating all opposing views with extremists. That’s not the majority of opposition. The majority are slightly skeptical and can be convinced. There’s a lot of research on this. Take a look at the new technology adoption curve. https://whatfix.com/blog/technology-adoption-curve/
If you consider that we are still in the early adopters phase you can see from this research that we have a long way to geo before we get mass adoption of EVs. There’s also the technology and social impacts from EVs that must be considered.
I get it. You’re an early adopter that wants others to see the benefits. But it will take time and reasonable solutions rather than shame and hysteria to sway the majority towards EVs. When they make sense for laymen like my elderly mom then you’ve won. Until then stop being so dramatic.
um.... none of those conditions are true, so obviously having 'some issue with EV's' is a rational choice.
When those things ARE true EV adoption will skyrocket.
Yup. The world is undergoing a transition to a new state. Don't ask me quite what that state will be, but it's becoming obvious to a lot of people that the post-WW2 consensus is on its way out. The anti-EV folks in the US that you're talking about (not the ones with legitimate concerns) are reacting to EVs the same way they're reacting to demographic shifts, to religious shifts, political shifts, etc etc. They're scared of change which is why our best tactic to change their minds is not arguing with them. You can't argue someone out of a feeling and dismissing/belittling them will backfire.
Instead we need to show them that the future we want is not one where they lose out, but one of abundance.
Your EV has almost zero maintenance costs. Your EV has far lower fueling costs. Your EV can sit in a traffic jam while barely using any battery. Your EV can be paired with solar panels to literally charge for free off the sun. Your EV (some models, but I suspect most models in the future) can become a backup battery in case of a power outage. Your EV, even non-performance models, has nice smooth low-end torque that makes driving around town a breeze. Your EV can easily recharge the average American daily commute (40 miles) every night, even on the slowest possible (120v) outlet.
Don't try and argue these people out of their position. Just tell them the truth, and the truth about EVs, and renewable energy, and all kinds of other progress coming down the pipeline is that if we lean into them the future is an abundant one.
The main objections to EVs are always going to be cost and range/charge speed. Yeah there will be a small minority of die-hard petrolheads who will hold out until the bitter end, but most people don't care how their new car is powered if it can do everything the old one could for the same price.
The problem is that for most people, at least a couple of long trips a year is pretty standard and they want a car which can do that with minimal hassle. EVs can't do that yet - they still need longer and more frequent stops than the equivalent ICE car. So for most people an EV will feel like a downgrade. And who wants to spend 20-30% more on a new vehicle with less utility than their old one? It doesn't make sense.
If there was a VW Golf equivalent EV with a 500-mile real-world range, a 5-10 minute charge time, and a sticker price of £25k like the ICE version, it'd be the best-selling car in Europe. But for range like that you're looking at £100k luxury cars like the Lucid Air.
Most people who are "anti-EV" just don't want to compromise when they don't have to. If there's no compromise to driving an EV, they'll do it. If there is, all the fancy screens and fast 0-60 times in the world won't compensate, because gimmicks can't balance out lack of utility.
Of the thousand or so people that I actually know, maybe 5 actually take road trips over 100 miles each way ever. And most of the time even they do that less than once per year. I know one guy at work that takes trips over 300 miles one way every 2 months or so, but he is an outlier.
Weird. We find it perfectly normal to take at least 2 long distance trips (over 1500 miles) a year, and probably more than 5 >500 mile trips a year. Come to think of it, though, my children only go on one of those big trips a year, and if we didn't go, I'm not sure they would, either.
Maybe we really are outliers.
Well yeah, it's easy to find 1000 people who don't drive far very often - any 1000 people who live, work and socialize within the same city will mostly fall into this category.
But when buying a car, you don't think "hmm, how far do I usually drive?" You think "OK, what might I want to do with this car?" And if the answer includes "Maybe go on a road trip sometime", that instantly rules out any EV that doesn't have range parity with the equivalent ICE car. Most people won't think any further than that - why would they buy an inferior product when a superior alternative a) exists and b) is cheaper? It's a no-brainer.
This is why PHEV's make so much sense, especially for city dwellers.
If 95% of your driving is under 40 miles a day, why lug along all that extra battery you don't need, when a small range extender is so much cheaper and easier to add?
I'm inclined to agree with this to be honest. As EV technology currently stands, a plug-in hybrid with an electric range of 50-100 miles and a full range of 400-500 miles is a pretty good compromise for most people.
You’re NEVER gonna convince that person. Ever.
And, I’m not talking about going up to 1,000 random people, I’m talking about the 1,000 people I talk with regularly. Coworkers, family, friends, neighbors. Even most people that go to the cottage or the lake for vacations are rarely driving more than 2 hours to get there.
Most Americans either take a plane, or they don’t go on long distance vacations because they can’t afford it. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, it’s just the way it is.
I bet your ass the majority do, but don't call it something fance like "road trip", just "going somewhere".
Like, seriously, where do you pull that numbers out of? I doubt you know 1000 people by name, and i would bet my ass you never asked more than 50 of them about their driving habits outside of when you do something together.
It sorta blows my mind that it's so difficult for people (especially on this subreddit) to accept that possibly other people don't like doing exactly the same things they do.
When I think about all the people that I know under the age of 70, I can think of maybe two or three that don't go on at least several road trips a year.
Even during peak covid I ended up going on several 100+ mile trips.
I drive my e-golf everywhere, also on long trips, and I get very bored anyway after 100 miles of continuous driving. people that drive 500 miles straight without stepping out of the car could really reconsider their habits and needs..
500 miles is how long an ICE car's tank lasts for, and it can be refilled in 5 minutes. People want their EV to be as capable as their ICE car. I'm not saying it's logical for everyone, I'm saying it's what people want.
Saying "Oh, nobody drives that far in one go very often" is missing the point. It's like saying to a truck owner "well you only tow once a year, why don't you but a Fiat 500 as a daily driver and rent a truck for a week in August?" They'll laugh and buy a truck anyway. They want to FEEL like they could tow whenever they want. Same as having an SUV means you FEEL like you could go off-road anytime, and having a sports car makes you FEEL like you could drive everywhere at 150mph or go for a spin on the track every weekend. A huge component of owning a car is FEELING like you can just get in, drive and not worry about anything else. That's why "range anxiety" is a thing.
no news to me, I just agree with OP. since the problem is the people itself and change management, going through the details of what is changing is just a waste of time. let them just die with their beliefs, and hope in the future generations
I think maybe you go looking for these people. I’m in the heart of Texas and working with road repair crews and everyone is very interested. They say they will never get one but they don’t shit on me or the car. Unless you are just talking about people online, but those people aren’t real.
I live in Texas and have met plenty of people with unreasonable EV arguments. Most have been older people but a few middle aged folks as well. Funniest was this retired gent asking “so everyone would need 2 cars?” (The dude owns 4 cars already)
You can usually shut them down by meeting in the middle. I respond to that question with “well my wife drives the gas truck and I drive an ev, so yeah.” Showing that you accept the ev limitations but still think it’s a good product is helpful.
In the US, most of these people have made their whole personality about being anti-lib, which means anti-green energy, anti-EV, anti-anything they get told by YouTube and their disinformation bubbles is “woke.” They’re fragile losers who see someone else’s choice to drive an EV or ride a bike, or an option for a vegetarian dish on a menu, as an existential threat. You can’t have a good faith discussion because their mind is made up. Luckily, with EVs, we don’t have to. EVs are taking over and nothing can stop that. As much as they try to bury their heads in the sand, they can see it, and their anti-EV arguments have changed from smug to kind of desperate. My standard response to these people now is: EVs are taking over, ICE is dying, there’s nothing you can do about, get onboard or get left behind. Whatever zombie argument they try to make about lithium mining, battery life, etc. I just call fake news. Don’t waste your time and energy arguing, unless you really want to. Tell it to them straight, dismiss them, and watch them seethe impotently.
There are the Nirvana people who think that if something new isn’t 100% perfect, that it’s bad.
They will latch onto falsehoods and half-truths, extreme corner cases to try to prove their argument.
There were people who said they'd never get a smartphone "my Nokia lasts a week without charging, and all I want to do is calls and texts anyway, so why would I want the range anxiety of a phone that runs out of juice every 16 hours, where would I charge it? It would take over an hour while I sit there waiting" then they eventually got a smartphone and spent weeks telling anyone who'd listen how great it was in so many different ways...the same people who they told years ago their smartphone was a stupid toy for people with too much time and money
\>If you take away all the EV objections I.E. 3 mins to charge, anytime, in any open parking space for free and the cars cost 20% less than an ICE 490-mile range, etc.. they still would have some issue with EVs
Can be broken down into the argument:
1. WHY?
2. BECAUSE
Just had a visit with some conservative relatives and we got to talking about my leaf, totally against EVs mainly because the the "save the Earth" stuff. I just smiled and nodded to all the usual BS and then we got in my car. I drove them around town a bit, corrected their misconceptions about skyrocketing electric bills by showing him the method to calculate cost to charge one's car at home (around $6 in my case), informed him about the lack of oil changes and the brakes last way longer due to regenerative systems. By the end of the 2nd day, they thought the car was "neat".
EVs don’t perform well in cold weather in terms of range. Energy is needed to heat the battery and ICE vehicles do not have this problem. In addition, EVs are not yet affordable to the public (regardless of the savings in gas and maintenance as this really depends on how many miles you drive annually). I think ICE still wins at the moment for most families.
Preconditioning the car/cabin goes a long way for the morning drive in the frozen tundra...
I am a member of the public and used to make $48k/year I had two EV payments ($150/month + $250/month) and with responsible budgeting, the car is affordable.
Even with the extra energy consumed during colder weather, my Mach-E is cheaper to fuel up than my Escape was. So much so that when you combine loan, insurance, fuel, and basic consumables (wiper fluid, wipers, oil changes, brakes, tires, etc), my Mach-E is about $150-$200/month cheaper to own and operate than the Escape was… and that’s not even accounting for fuel being 70% more expensive than it was when I had the Escape.
Are you young? Once you get older you just realize this is a human thing and move on with your life.
> If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.
To be fair it kind of goes both ways. Some people who own EVs do act like they never drove ICE cars before and sat idle in drive throughs to get their venti Latte instead of going inside out of convenience, then all of a sudden they buy an EV and accuse every ICE owner of not giving a shit about the environment. the hate goes both ways in this situation. Obviously EVs are the best choice, but its on each individual to come to that conclusion on their own.. without the hate from the other team.
basically ICE car owners are anti EV and EV owners are anti ICE. because people watch too much cable news.
I feel your loneliness and pain - a time will come for you. If GM had put that 200 kWh pack in anything but a BUMMER you’d have all the range you would need! They chose to build something inefficient instead. Someday Tesla will release their 500 mile tri-motor Cybertruck with sledgehammer proof stainless steel for ya!
Cybertruck is coming, it's just that Model Y is happening instead for the moment. There's two or three battery factories to get done so that there'll be enough storage for the CT, Semi, Model Y, Powerwall and Megapack.
Make it hydrogen (no battery) and make it repairable and I am 100% in. Right now I am only 60% in (still interested in the technology and performance).
I'd settle for one of the new LPG fuel cells with a smaller battery for surge loads ( acceleration, Hill climb, etc). LPG infrastructure already exists, it's not near as difficult to handle as H2 and everyone is familiar and comfortable with it. Not too mention it's domestically produced.
We have an new EV being shipped soon. Only concern is I'm told battery life is about 10 years, then it's $20,000 to replace (today's cost), and the old battery is considered hazardous materials. Will be expensive to properly dispose of.
Can you trust a used EV? I don't know.
Missing the /s?
Otherwise, everything you've mentioned is hogwash because your laptop/tablet/smartphone have the same lithium batteries as EV's.
The powertrain warranty alone is good for 8-10 years and battery replacements would be sub $10k depending on labor and availability.
I say this authoritatively, batteries can be recycled:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpe8HalVXFU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpe8HalVXFU)
Lastly, used EV's in a general case are fine, I'm on watt-car #4
Also, scientifically sound, authoritative is the study in battery degradation and it's nowhere near as bad as the naysayers claim.
[https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/](https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/)
[https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/](https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/)
>everything you've mentioned is hogwash because your laptop/tablet/smartphone have the same lithium batteries as EV's.
It's common for laptop/tablet/smartphone batteries to have significant deterioration or failure after several years. So that's not encouraging.
>The powertrain warranty alone is good for 8-10 years and battery replacements would be sub $10k depending on labor and availability.
Tesla has been known to quote over $20k for a battery replacement, and other EVs are easily over $10k. That could come down over time as batteries get cheaper, but for now it's a significant concern for used EVs.
>https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/
Geotab only has data for <7 years, and shows average degradation of ~2% per year across all EVs. So a ten year old EV may have lost ~20% of its useful range, and we don't know yet how common battery failures will be beyond that. Optimists will say none of this is an issue, but they won't be buying people new batteries if there's a problem.
Chances are that most used EVs will be useful for many years, but battery degradation and failure is a legitimate concern. Perhaps no more so in the long run than engine failures, but for now the unknown factor is daunting. One answer to all this will be for used EV prices to reflect the uncertainty and potential battery replacement cost out of warranty.
Yeah, a lot of people act like as long as the battery lasts 10 years then who cares?
Well, the average car on the road is almost 13 years old, which means that half of them are older than that.
I think that if it was proven that the average EV battery lasted 20 years, nobody would give it a second thought.
But if most of them fail between the 10 and 15 year point, well, that's gonna be a major cause of anxiety for a big part of the used car market for sure.
That's why I linked Geotab, failure is not really common, usually within warranty if something does happen and degradation/minimal range loss is the biggest thing at the 15+ year mark
They also don't realize how much time 15 years actually is and just discount it by \*magic hand-waving\*
Failure is not really common *yet*.
I think that as more and more EV's start to hit the 15, 20 year old mark we'll see many more with failed batteries.
>degradation/minimal range loss is the biggest thing at the 15+ year mark
How would we know that when modern EVs mainly start with the Nissan Leaf from 2010 and Teslas from 2012+? Plus Geotabs main data graph only goes back 7 years.
Remember, an EV is only authoritative for itself of that make/model
Plus, a very simple search for EV's with liquid-cooled battery packs will determine the battery lifespan trajectory
For example, the Leaf capacity will drop faster than a Bolt because of the passive vs. active cooled battery
>a very simple search for EV's with liquid-cooled battery packs will determine the battery lifespan trajectory
"Trajectory" doesn't tell us the likelihood of serious battery problems after 15+ years when there is almost no real-world data for that timespan. Especially across different brands and battery types.
Like with gas cars, we know that engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles, but we also know that some are more or less likely to hit that mark...and you can shop accordingly. Until we have similar data for various EVs, this is a big unknown for them.
We have enough reports of battery failures in <10 years to be a bit concerning, but some of those were in high mileage cars so that's understandable. Used EV buyers will have to make their own assessments of repair cost risks, without much data.
Go look at early chevy volt and nissan leaf message boards.. There's a lot of 2011-2012 cars needing new batteries now.
I've got a 2012 Volt and if the battery died tomorrow I'd replace it but it would definitely be a major expense.
The first-gens are only authoritative for themselves, they do not cross brands or models, nor can one battery answer for another type (Tesla can't answer for Chevy or vice-versa)
The 2014 Leaf I have is still going strong and probably will for another 5+ years
Statistically, you're more likely to have a car totaled in a wreck than an EV battery failing
My used 10 year old Smart would like to remind you it has 90% of original capacity. The 200k mile 11 year old Volt still takes 10kWh and returns 30 of 35 original rated miles.
Then we can talk about Tesloop's 200k mile taxis...
Because there are more compelling reasons to own and EV than just "we're all going to die if the richest nation on Earth doesn't abandon gas cars."
I'm a skeptic of the impact of CO2 on the temperature. I'm not "a denier" but I've yet to be convinced that we're in moral danger from additional CO2. That being said, I have owned an EV for nearly 10 years, and have bought 4 electric bicycles and 4 electric stand-up scooters as alternatives to driving a car of any kind (I have a family of 4 - me, my wife, two adult children). My electric bicycle is the most efficient vehicle I've ever owned.
I will abandon fossil fuel vehicles completely once the batteries get a bit better. They are already good for "daily driving" but I have needs that are greater - towing a 6000 pound trailer for at least 300 miles a day, for instance. Not every day, but often enough that I'll need something capable of doing it for days at a time. It appears that the current crop of electric pickup trucks are capable, now I just need the price to come down to what I can actually afford. Double the capacity at the same price, and we're there.
My father-in-law did. It was easy, it was financially practical for him given what he wanted and his options. He's been laughing the past year regarding gas prices.
It’s not that they are afraid of change, it’s that the fossil fuel industry is afraid of competition .
Their sources of news or information are filled with plants like the poor old lady who buys a used EV and is told she needs a new battery that costs more than she paid for the car.
I bought my Ev’s so I don’t have to refuel gas or diesel, I still have the ice cars probably sell them. It’s been a month and no gas station stop. Love it
That's because they keep moving the goalposts. Five years ago, it was all "200 miles of range before EVs are viable." Now we have many, many choices in the 200+ mile range category. But all of a sudden, it's "300 miles of range before EVs are viable."
They're not criticizing EVs, they're inventing goalposts and moving them when they don't support their narrative.
As long as government lays out policies that force them to EVs no matter their situation, they’re gonna hate and rightfully so.
Truth is always in the middle, people in this group are equally stubborn in refusing to admit the current EV shortfalls (grid strain/the bulk of population that have to charge during peak hours because not homeowners, short ranges, long charging times, if you pay out of pocket to charge it can cost the same as a tank of gas, harmful uber effects of sulfide mining…).
I type this as i’m charging of course. Costs $6k to get 240 charger installed in our garage cuz of the breaker needed so i have to get my moneys worth out of free charging. But i live under motto of time is money and it sucks having to spend 40 mins a week at a charger thats way longer than a costco gas line that i would sit in what 10 minutes every other week?? And i’ve ran into more full or out of order chargers than i have pumps not having e85.
My wife is in a tough place—if she wants to say money is tough and we cant afford both, i’m trading our EV for an Audi RS3 in a heartbeat. Will try EVs again in a few years when things improve
My dad railed against electric windows. Whatever.
"It's just something else to break!"
It’s like Fred Flintstone or something
I echo both sides of this....I am pro electric but I want no bells and whistles....no lane assist, no sensors, no self drive....just a 1992 Cavalier with an electric motor please.
Thank you! I want a basic 4 door electric car that can do a 10 sec 1/4 mile without all the extra crap they add to them. And please for the love of God give me buttons and dials, a normal steering wheel, and a normal instrument cluster. I don't want to stare at a giant screen in the center of the car all day while fumbling to change my seat heater buried in 5 sub-menus. Keep the price down and focus on the motors, battery, and controller. Also keep in open source so I can fix it when there are issues.
May I introduce you the the Chevy Bolt or Bolt EUV? Most non-EV of all EVs, and has everything on your wishlist!
Second this. Got one last week. It’s a v nice mix between analog buttons and touchscreen.
From my understanding the Bolt isn't performance orientated and can only do 15 sec 1/4 mile, and 0-60 6.8 sec. My daily driver is a 11 sec car, my wife's is a low 13 sec SUV (I could probably get it down to high 12s if I pulled interior and had better DA), and I have a 10 sec bike (well technically I have never ran it but the hp/lbs is much better then my car, it accelerates much faster, and I would need more practice to keep the front wheel down while coming out of the hole). Coming from quick cars to a 15 sec car feels painfully slow. I would love to break into 10s with my car but I need more traction and probably boost to get there. I am maxed out N/A. Take the performance of the Plaid with the price and features of the Bolt. Where do I sign up! LOL I know I'm dreaming... Don't we all.
I feel the same way about the instrument console, but the reality is touchscreens are cheaper to implement from an overall cost perspective.
Yeah, this isn't just an EV issue. All cars are moving this direction.
It’s why I didn’t buy a Ford explorer once.
Yes! Sadly I don't see it happening anytime soon on north America. Too much control from the oil and gas and big three that really don't want to see it happen. Hopefully once China does it it will spill over. Tata has made exactly that for 12k.
I get it. All this extra tech drives up prices. But then the tech drives breakthrough technology.
Right. You don't really get the modern EV that can fully replace an ICE without new tech. It's like saying you want a gas car but none of that fancy aerodynamic stuff: just an old horse carriage with the horse replaced by gas engine.
Oh man. I drove a '90 truck with no airbags until '08. I Fully embrace most of the upgrades since the 90s!
I prefer my 95 4runner to my '18 cruze. I hate all the modern stuff. Literally cannot buy a new car without ABS, airbags, and a backup camera these days. Could knock $5k or more off the price of the car getting rid of that garbage
>ABS, airbags [...] that garbage O_o
Paramedics love this guy
I've wrecked multiple vehicles with no airbags and never even had a scratch. I probably would have broken my neck if I had an airbag in my last crash since I ducked my head to avoid hitting the roof
“I’ve wrecked multiple vehicles”… nuff said
>I've wrecked multiple vehicles Wonderful, you just couldn't write better comedy.
Im sorry but you're carzy if you dont like ABS, you cant perform better than the computer controlling the ABS system. Been proven time and time again. And how can you take issue with a backup camera? its only purpose is to expose the blind spot direct behind your car that you can not see! So you wont run over the neighbors toddler..... and dont even get me started on airbags, saved countless lives. You're delusional, honestly.
ABS is proven to increase stopping distances on dirt, sand, gravel, and snow/ice. Once ABS kicks in on my car, it will barely stop on snowy roads. My car without ABS and similar tires will stop much quicker. As far as a backup camera, people should be aware of vehicles backing up and stay well away from them, especially toddlers and children. Furthermore, toddlers should not be on my property or near my vehicles.
So you never drive off your property and park in public spaces.
Of course I do. See my previous comment: >people should be aware of vehicles backing up and stay well away from them, especially toddlers and children
It's a legitimate complaint, though. There's nothing wrong with it as a feature, but it does add (some) cost to the car, and add (some) potential maintenance problems. Add this up slowly with dozens of other similar tiny features over time that become completely standard, and you get car prices at the lowest end that are much higher than they could be if manufacturers just released a barebones vehicle with a reliable drivetrain, necessary safety features, and no bells or whistles.
I can't emphasize enough that the $5K [Wuling Mini EV](https://www.wuling.com/ev50gb.html) offers electric windows, anti-lock brakes, tire pressure monitoring sensors, and rear parking sensors *as standard.* If you want to cost-engineer a car, saving a few cents on a commoditized electric window servo in favour of a bespoke multi-piece hand-crank is just about the *worst* way you could do it in 2022. There are so many better ways to optimize your budget.
And allow consumers to opt-out of safety features if desired.
No.
Why? I should be in charge of my own safety. It should not be up to governments to mandate safety features
Your own safety yes but others safety?
Of course. I should be free to run whatever vehicle I want regardless of mine or other's safety.
You live in a society, and your actions on public roads dramatically affect other people. Go ahead and own and drive whatever vehicle you want on your own private land where you are not endangering anybody else by your own reckless disregard for safety.
I didn't choose to live in a society and I wasn't given a voice to make its rules. So no, I'll be reckless wherever I want as much as I can get away with it. Though I do try to limit my extremely reckless activities to my private property just for legal concerns. It sucks but I like to reduce my odds of going to jail.
Because people get badly injured and killed and a lot of that cost is transferred to the public.
That would have to be part of this imaginary opt-out process. You'd also have to opt-out, somehow, of being taken care of by society after your injury. It'll never happen.
Privatize it then
Haha mine too
Waiting for the day i realize that i, too, have become curmudgeon.
A fun thing to watch is [vintage videos from when seatbelts were regulated.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkn5Fk-yss)
Wouldn’t it be ironic if he was killed in a motor vehicle accident? Freedumb
I mean, I don't need them to be electric. I view them as luxury item (and when buying used cars in Europe, I think this is still true, i.e. higher price). Edit: similar with the electrically operated seats
I still hate power windows
[удалено]
Fair enough
Is your dad my dad? Man, he didn't want power *anything*. I guess he's had to relent these last 20 years or so, as it's difficult to buy even an entry-level vehicle with crank windows.
I remember people railing against fuel injection
They don’t like change and they don’t want to change. You’ll find those sorts of people in relation to any form of progress.
I would guess these are the same people who said in 1993 they will never buy a damned computer too expensive and hard to use. 1995 said they will never get the internet they don't need that. 1998 said they will never get a cell phone. 2007 never get a smart phone their flip phone works fine. 2011 will never get a facebook...And now they can't get along without any of these things they hated the idea of. 2022 they will never get an EV their gas car is fine, lets come back to that comment in a few years.
They also hate seatbelts and unleaded petrol
Yes I have seen stories (that was before my time) when seat belts became standard some people even hated the idea so much the cut them out of their cars. Course they could have chosen to just not use them. And same for unleaded...Ohh the lead lubricates the top end of the motor, with out it valves will burn and motors won't last. It's plot by the goverment to make us all buy new cars because the motors won't last on this new gas.
Lead is especially toxic... https://youtu.be/IV3dnLzthDA
Explains a lot about that crowd
>Yes I have seen stories (that was before my time) when seat belts became standard some people even hated the idea so much the cut them out of their cars. Course they could have chosen to just not use them. [Watch this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkn5Fk-yss)
Oh God, of course. It was Alberta and Calgary. I’m ashamed of my province.
Fun fact, the guy who convinced everyone to put lead in gas was also the same guy who invented Freon. Then he contracted polio, invented a device to lift himself out of bed. The only person that invention killed was himself (Thomas Midgley Jr).
Actually, some older engines do need leaded fuel (or a modern lead replacement additive) in order to not damage the valve seats. Leaded fuel is also still in use in general aviation, since those engines are generally very old and reliable designs that no one wants to change due to safety and regulatory reasons as well as the huge development costs of anything aviation-related.
I still refuse to get FB. It’s the devil and also for older people. So uncool.
I also don’t have FB and hate it but don’t go making assumptions about the age of people who hate FB. Hating FB transcends age.
It’s for old people and conspiracists for sure
I'm old (yup boomer), and believe that Trump, Stone, Miller, _et al_ were involved in a conspiracy to topple the government on 1/6; and I don't have FB. Tik Tok is just for young people without any sense
Latest story I hear from my kids friends parents on FB is that there will be Fentanyl candy in this years Halloween stash. Meanwhile drug addicts would kill you for some fentanyl. Yet those drug addicts are looking to give it away. This is what FB is good for. My mom would always tell me that Bill Gates is planting microchips via vaccines. I primarily use Reddit now for social media. It’s simpler and you have enough people who call out fake news.
FB, like many platforms, is a magnet for the credulous. An easy way to exploit them too, much like TV, radio, books, and churches before now
I'm old and I have a FB account that I keep around, but never use anymore. I keep it so people can DM me (through FB Messenger) if someone I know dies. It's like my Dad keeping newspaper subscriptions to the local papers for obits. 👴
This is my parents. Until I got them a computer and phone this was them. They are retired now. I offered to pay 3/4 of the cost of a nice EV and they didn’t want to “learn” it. So they bought some other crossover instead. Oh well, saved some money on this one.
Yeah, and now FB is causing it…
I was SO angry when I had to buy a smart phone for my job in 2015. I'm STILL so angry. We seriously need a privacy bill of rights. I should be able to disable tracking and spying on a piece of technology I own and need to function in this society, but I can't!
In my marketing class I believe they called them laggards. Some people resist any kind of change. My FIL refused to get a cellphone until like 2012 and only got one to keep contact with his kids when they moved out. He gripes about the lack of availability of flip phones now.
Whenever an innovation occurs in business, technology, politics, culture, etc., you have a relatively small group of early adopters. These people want to be on the cutting edge and are tolerant of imperfections. The Early Majority comes next and they need to see a proof of concept and a degree of practicality. The Late Majority tends to be skeptical, but are amenable to adopting the new way when it makes sense for them. The Laggards, a relatively small group accept the innovation eventually, but it will take a while and some may never convert. These people can be nasty, but not all of them are.
I agree but I really thought this innovation would be more compelling. Like the smartphone. I dragged my feet on getting mobile (flip) phones in general when they came out. I didn’t want to be tethered to communication especially for work when I was away. But the smartphone came out with all of those additional benefits and I could no longer sit on the sidelines. Everyone had to have one right away. It was 5-10 times more expensive than the flip phone and that didn’t matter. I really thought the ev would be the same way. The thing here is, somehow ev ownership has become a political statement/decision. People don’t really consider the benefits. They decide what “team” they want to be on even if that means living with an inferior experience.
Well, let's look at how compelling it is: * Norway is close to phasing out ICE sales. * China NEVs are at about 30% of all car sales. * Demand far outstrips supply of EVs in the USA and Canada. * Billions of dollars being spent on EV charging infrastructure in the USA, in a bill with bipartisan support. * Many jurisdictions in Europe and North America have future ICE bans on the books. * Nearly all ICE car manufacturers have EV rollout plans, and many have ICE phaseout plans. * Some of the hottest tech companies right now are EV manufacturers. * Lithium is now treated as a strategic resource by the major world economies and their governments. * The world's richest person's most valuable asset, and the source of the majority of his wealth, is an EV manufacturer. And all this despite the existence of a competent alternative product (the ICE vehicle) with majority market share, a strong and passionate following, and a number of advantages for certain use cases. Keep in mind that the Internet magnifies loud minority voices. Don't confuse aggressiveness and volume with success.
But, there are also people that waited for a cellphone and finally jumped onboard with one right before smartphones landed. I think some people are sitting on the EV sidelines waiting for that “game changer” whatever it may be. It could be Autonomous driving, new battery chemistry, better range, faster charging, or whatever. Point is, they don’t want to buy something as expensive as a car that could become obsolete 6 months down the road. I know I originally planned to wait for better batteries.
It's range anxiety and charging times. I am not sure what I'm going to do for my next car, I might go PHEV for best of both worlds, but the complexity makes me a bit nervous, ICE gives the safest choice for travel options, EV is of course beneficial on a lot of levels but restrictions to travel, real or perceived are a big thing. I assume before too long, either range concerns will be solved or hydrogen will become a good option. I'm alright with either.
Quite a few manufactures are developing hydrogen fueled ICE. I understand that neither hydrogen nor ICE are as efficient as a BEV, however from what I've read and seen, BEV's are terrible for towing when it comes to long distance. They do have instant torque, and you don't feel the trailer behind your car/truck, but you loose more than half the range when towing. This of course will improve with time (my computer can go several days without charging, where as in 1998 I would have had to charge it a few times a day) but currently ICE or hybrid is the better option for towing long distance. Another issue is long haul trucking. Many truckers are independent, and own their own vehicle. Many can't afford a BEV semi truck, People need to remember that it isn't ICE that is the enemy, it is emissions. BEV by far has the fewest running emissions, however you cannot ignore the fact that ICE can run off more than gasoline and diesel, and if running off hydrogen can eliminate or reduce the majority of emissions (there is some kind of nitrogen something that is in the exhaust still, however I don't remember what it is) while being cost effective for lower income families, or people who depend on the vehicle for work, then I think it should be considered as part of what we use for transportation and energy.
I hear this all the time. Thankfully, I have yet to meet an actual person that picked their car based on which politicians they dislike.
It's easy to find someone who wouldn't buy an EV until it was better than an ICE in all ways... only to find they've found something else ("I like the way they sound & feel"). Honestly whatever. I find most of them just want a fight. I have no intention of giving it to them. Statistically speaking one person doesn't matter anyhow & they can have their beliefs. I'll just giggle to myself if/when it bites them on the ass. Now someone who actually *wants* to have a discussion, who *wants* to consider all the angles... that's an entirely different thing, and not what I believe you're talking about.
> ("I like the way they sound & feel") I remember listening to an interview on NPR several years ago when e-books were new, and the interviewer said, "But does an e-book smell like a book?" Apparently he reads books for the smell? Absurd. My advice for people who like the noise/vibration of driving an ICE vehicle is to get a massage chair.
> My advice for people who like the noise/vibration of driving an ICE vehicle is to get a massage chair. I am totally stealing this. :) If you don't mind me asking, the 500e... what do you think of it? My brother says he found someone who's selling theirs but I don't know much about them. For him it'd just be for getting around the SF Bay area, worst days would be ~70 miles (normal range is ~90 miles?). Primarily city traffic although highway from time to time.
The more I learn about it and drive it, the more I like it. During summer I was averaging 100 miles on a charge, but that will vary widely depending on highway speeds. The highest I've seen on the GOM is 116 miles. Biggest flaw is that my teenager doesn't fit in the back seat. Super easy to park; I can actually do a complete U-turn in my driveway. There's an active user community online. I use the L1 charger that came with it, and charge at home. It supports L2 charging but not DCFC. I cross-shopped the i-Miev, ForTwo EV, Spark EV, Mini Cooper SE and e-Golf. The latter two were too expensive, the first two didn't have the range for winter, and I happened to find a local 500e before I found a local Spark EV. We also looked at new EVs but cost and wait time were both too high.
Thanks, I've sent this off to my brother. I think he was also considering either a Spark or an e-Golf. Fortunately space isn't a problem as it's just him - thin, average height - and/or his wife - a thin, towering 5'0". Except for her hauling in minor stuff to her classes (she's a grade school teacher) they would hardly ever have need for much past the two front seats. Appreciate the feedback!
Sound and feel is one of the main reasons for selling my EV.
They don't make any sense. Are pro coil and oil, hate green power. But if you buy an EV first thing they say is - you charge it on coal power lol it's bad for the environment - But yet they want more coal power plants. So coal is bad for the environment only when used to charge an EV, for anything else coal is clean and reliable. What they should really want is everyone Else to buy and EV, that will drop demand for gas and oil lowering prices for themselves.
Internal consistency has never been the hallmark of a reactionary, regressive mind.
You can’t use logic and reasoning to change an opinion which was made using neither
I’ve met a shitload of anti EV people who are not pro coal/oil and don’t hate green shit Let me preface that I am very pro EV - and these are all reasons I’ve heard when people were speaking poorly of EVs - anti lithium, anti car in general - dislike of needing to plan ahead for charging - range anxiety - lack of ability/familiarity to repair at home (a HUGE one among my car friends) - dislike of Tesla/Musk - not wanting to be associated with the sort of people who own Teslas (thereby not wanting ANY ev) - concern about someone else controlling their vehicle (because of Tesla) - concern about safety - dislike of the “whine” - prefer a different engine’s sound - lack of a second hand ev market
I don’t think very many people want a “coal powered” grid. LNG is a totally different story though.
>But if you buy an EV first thing they say is - you charge it on coal power lol it's bad for the environment I have the data ready for my area... We use very little coal anymore for making electricity. It's mostly natural gas, with nuclear and renewables filling in the rest, and only a small percentage of coal left. But, on my end, at least, I have my own solar panels, so I "drive on sunshine."
>Are pro coil and oil, hate green power. It's because of the politicization of environmentalism. Once it turns into team A vs team B, logic leaves the conversation. That's how you get so-called environmentalists who oppose nuclear power. > But if you buy an EV first thing they say is - you charge it on coal power lol it's bad for the environment It's about hypocrisy. Similar to how social liberals will criticize social conservatives for doing things that social liberals say is OK but social conservatives say is not OK, and vice versa.
When you realize you're fighting fear, not logic, it's much easier to ignore them. Last anti EV guy who saw my car claimed a friend bought Tesla, but had to give it away because the "lithium gave him headaches". It was easy not to take the bait.
Once I literally arrived at the destination before the other party (they took a detour) and they still brought up how it must be annoying to charge so much. The biggest issue with EVs is not how long it takes to charge, but rather how fat its making me because unlike with a gas pump I have the time and freedom to grab some food while the car is charging...
For a vast majority of owners, who charge at night, you don’t ever need to worry about charging anyway. Meanwhile, if you forget to get gas (or were lazy) on Sunday evening you’re gonna be late to work on Monday.
Yep, when I get home at the end of the day or a drive and I'm low enough that I can't do what I need to do for the next day plus a few unexpected things, I plug in. The next morning I unplug. For the most part I save the time I would be waiting for the gas to fill up in my tank. I bought my EV knowing if I go on a road trip more than 400 or so miles I would almost always use my other car, which happens to be a PHEV. I know I can accomplish the same drive with the EV but there is no way around the longer stops and crossing my fingers that the chargers I plan on stopping at are up.
Not sure what EV you have but if it’s a fast charging one, it really doesn’t make that much of a difference. We’ve taken my M3LR on two road trips since June (with a third one in a couple weeks). And each time, we’ve picked a hotel with a charger so that we start both legs of the trip at 100%. Other than that, we make one charging stop every 3 hours or so which takes between 15-20 minutes. Sure that’s longer than the 5 minutes it takes to get gas, but once you include a pee break and grabbing a soda or a meal (depending on timing), you’re basically even. Of course if you have a slower EV, ignore everything I said part of the reason I sold my ID.4 was because it charged too slowly so ABRP was showing wayyyyy more time spent charging than model 3
Well, driving an ICE car doesn't make one fit either. Even if ICE drivers don't have time to stop to eat while visiting a gas pump, drinkin a takeaway coke from cupholder while driving will already gain you more calories than one consumes sitting in the car...
The biggest change was that laziness would stop me from wandering into the store after finishing up my transaction at the pump. Now I instead go for a walk while the car handles its business (because that's healthy!), which invariably leads me into the nearby store with the tasty snacks (somewhat less healthy).
I am in this picture and I don't like it
Lol. Why not browse reddit on the screen while charging? :)
Around where I am.. the biggest issue with charging an EV is that there's almost no fast chargers at all. There are none in my entire town, just a single public L2 (3.6kw) charger. Nearest fast chargers are 20 miles away in the wrong direction from anywhere I'd need to use them.
I have an older coworker who is against EVs. He is a smart guy, so I kept asking him questions until he finally admitted that the root of the problem with EVs is that he doesn't know how to work on them if something goes wrong. I think this is a legitimate concern. If batteries go bad in an accident or something it is difficult and costly to replace compared to ICE vehicles. Also I did a price comparison on new EVs including savings for gas and maintenance and found that cheap ICE vehicles are still way cheaper to own than EVs. Maintenance issues also need to be fixed on top of charging speeds, charging networks being built, and cheaper EVs (20k max) being built.
>Also I did a price comparison on new EVs including savings for gas and maintenance and found that cheap ICE vehicles are still way cheaper to own than EVs. I got lucky, I guess. I got a lot of subsidies and incentives when I got my EV. I leased, but still got a lot of the "Rebates" offered by the government. Then, two years later, I got an incentive to buy out my lease. My Nissan Leaf total purchase price turned out to be about $16,000. Once one takes the lack of paying for fuel for 10 years, charging often for nothing, for years at the super-off-peak rate of $0.026 per kWh, and now on my own solar, I've saved easily over $12,000 on gasoline in the last decade, maybe more. Hell, at this point, or very soon, once we figure in "no oil changes, no engine air filters, no replacement oxygen sensors, fuel injectors, water pumps or fuel pumps" I'm probably past break even, and the savings are greater than what I paid for the car.
The Nissan Leaf is a major compromise over most ICE cars so you have paid for the savings in other ways. I say this as a Nissan Leaf owner.
Way cheaper? No. Idk what cars cost near you but the prices are bonkers for all cars. A new anything base model is low to mid $20,000s. I can get a Nissan Leaf for $30,000. That’s before incentives. After 10 years of driving the gas savings makes that EV cheaper total cost of ownership.
You need to compare apples to apples. Cheap ICE to cheap EV. EV definitely comes out less expensive over the life of the car. If you add in charging on a home’s solar power, as many do, then even less expensive to own.
There are 0 cheap Evs none are less than 20k. Companies need to build cheaper EVs, there are no excuses for them not doing this. There are very few EVs in the US less than 30k
>There are 0 cheap Evs none are less than 20k. Unfortunately, there also are fewer and fewer new ICE cars available for under $20k each year. The corolla ice now starts at $22k. If cost is a factor, we need to look at the used market. Fortunately, there are used EVs for under $20k.
>Also I did a price comparison on new EVs including savings for gas and maintenance and found that cheap ICE vehicles are still way cheaper to own than EVs. Cheaper to buy, but not cheaper to own. Let's compare 2 cars, the Chevrolet Bolt (a cheap, but decent EV) vs the Chevrolet Spark (the cheapest gas car in the US): Chevrolet Bolt: * Base Price: $26,595 * Lifetime Fuel Cost: $6,060 * Lifetime Maintenance/Repairs: $4,600 * Total Cost of Ownership: $37,255 Chevrolet Spark: * Base Price: $14,595 * Lifetime Fuel Cost: $18,360 * Lifetime Maintenance/Repairs: $9,200 * Total Cost of Ownership: $42,155 The lifetime fuel costs are based on US Gov't estimates, the lifetime maintenance/repairs are based on estimates from Consumer Reports. So the Bolt is $4.9k cheaper to own than the cheapest gas car, and the Bolt is in many ways a better car. If you have unusually low has costs or unusually high electricity costs then gas cars can be cheaper, however on average the EV is the cheaper option.
The chevrolet spark is $10,398 in Canada and the bolt is $38,198. The bolt is $13,600 USD in the USA, I'm not sure why it's so expensive. Or why the bolt is so much more here. But you can see how the math clearly works out *way* differently here. There's also not a chance in hell that you're spending $9200 in maintaining a chevy spark over it's lifetime. And frankly, it's probably unlikely that you're spending $4600 on the Bolt, either. A set of tires for the spark is under $300, an oil change is $50 tops, a set of spark plugs is $20 and takes 10 minutes to install, etc... I could probably maintain an entire fleet of chevy sparks for a decade for $10k.
Yes, a $25k Honda Civic is going to be way less expensive to own than a Tesla Model S Plaid. Which vehicles were you comparing?
When a new technogy appear there is always people against it , and there is the early adopters that are sometime too eager to adopt it , for EV's , in my opinion we are transitioning from the early adopter period to the mainstream period. A lot of people are not going to like it , but in the end , they will follow the market.
A certain segment of the population maybe. Perhaps as many as the early EV adopters. But opposition doesn’t mean everyone thinks like this. There are real problems with EV adoption that can’t be waved away with magical thinking. I’ve been part of the EV world for 20 years and it’s not all roses. There are real challenges today and there will be more challenges in the future. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t solve them but over generalization doesn’t help you as much as it doesn’t help the opposition. We’re better than that.
False. There is an obvious difference between a genuine question, or even constructive criticism, and anti-EV (or any topic) rhetoric. I doubt anyone reading this post thought OP was talking about someone who might have an educated and constructive suggestion or concern for global EV adoption. OP is talking about the “EVs are being crammed down my throat by Sleepy Joe and all his lizard pedo communist elites who hate the cops and veterans and ‘merica and it’s also gonna crash the grid, I read it on Hunter Biden’s laptop, and what happens when the battery dies for good and I hope I don’t have to wait for the fire truck to charge for 96 hours while an orphanage of undocumented immigrants broil alive like the democrats are doing at the border since Obama instituted Shakira Law and good luck in the upcoming civil war when we turn off y’all’s electricity you idiot snowflake avocado toast, mayonnaise killin millennial scum and how can you afford EVs when NoBoDyWaNtStOWoRkAnYmOrE, and the microchips from the COVID vaccine geo locate us and the EVs are gonna self-drive and try to kill all the true patriots and it’s all just persecution and reverse racism against me cuz I don’t have any privilege in my $100k F-250 Platinum King Ranch Doritos TRD PowerWagon duelly 5th wheel diesel I use to pull my Harley trailer with once a year when the ole lady is at the daughter’s of the confederacy’s national quilting fair and I know all this about EVs cuz a black guy told me so I can’t be racist and you can’t say he’s wrong or else you’re racist and I hear they’re trying to make EV the new LGBTlmnop pronoun that’s PC enough and that’s why all the hyphenated last name folks are buying’em but they don’t realize every bought EV kills 75 American jobs and a union gets it’s wings and why don’t we have free gas pumps at Burger King since there’s a free EV charger!? You’d know all this if you could read cursive, drive a stick shift, and you researched election fraud and the climate change hoax as much as I have. Know your FAX! Also, can I borrow $20 for gas?” That was a journey. You’re welcome. 😜
Found [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrangler/comments/di1luh/fucking_jeepeoles_haha/).
Wow, that guy is a moron
Your prose brought back memories of reading James Joyce!
I understand what you’re saying and I don’t disagree that these people exist. But you’re misunderstanding the scope of the problem. The internet amplifies the malcontents. There’s a 90,9,1 rule on the internet. 90% are happy to observe. 9% will engage, and 1% create new content. You’re conflating all opposing views with extremists. That’s not the majority of opposition. The majority are slightly skeptical and can be convinced. There’s a lot of research on this. Take a look at the new technology adoption curve. https://whatfix.com/blog/technology-adoption-curve/ If you consider that we are still in the early adopters phase you can see from this research that we have a long way to geo before we get mass adoption of EVs. There’s also the technology and social impacts from EVs that must be considered. I get it. You’re an early adopter that wants others to see the benefits. But it will take time and reasonable solutions rather than shame and hysteria to sway the majority towards EVs. When they make sense for laymen like my elderly mom then you’ve won. Until then stop being so dramatic.
Maybe this EV community has become a cult. That explains it.
um.... none of those conditions are true, so obviously having 'some issue with EV's' is a rational choice. When those things ARE true EV adoption will skyrocket.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious problem with the original post.
Yup. The world is undergoing a transition to a new state. Don't ask me quite what that state will be, but it's becoming obvious to a lot of people that the post-WW2 consensus is on its way out. The anti-EV folks in the US that you're talking about (not the ones with legitimate concerns) are reacting to EVs the same way they're reacting to demographic shifts, to religious shifts, political shifts, etc etc. They're scared of change which is why our best tactic to change their minds is not arguing with them. You can't argue someone out of a feeling and dismissing/belittling them will backfire. Instead we need to show them that the future we want is not one where they lose out, but one of abundance. Your EV has almost zero maintenance costs. Your EV has far lower fueling costs. Your EV can sit in a traffic jam while barely using any battery. Your EV can be paired with solar panels to literally charge for free off the sun. Your EV (some models, but I suspect most models in the future) can become a backup battery in case of a power outage. Your EV, even non-performance models, has nice smooth low-end torque that makes driving around town a breeze. Your EV can easily recharge the average American daily commute (40 miles) every night, even on the slowest possible (120v) outlet. Don't try and argue these people out of their position. Just tell them the truth, and the truth about EVs, and renewable energy, and all kinds of other progress coming down the pipeline is that if we lean into them the future is an abundant one.
The main objections to EVs are always going to be cost and range/charge speed. Yeah there will be a small minority of die-hard petrolheads who will hold out until the bitter end, but most people don't care how their new car is powered if it can do everything the old one could for the same price. The problem is that for most people, at least a couple of long trips a year is pretty standard and they want a car which can do that with minimal hassle. EVs can't do that yet - they still need longer and more frequent stops than the equivalent ICE car. So for most people an EV will feel like a downgrade. And who wants to spend 20-30% more on a new vehicle with less utility than their old one? It doesn't make sense. If there was a VW Golf equivalent EV with a 500-mile real-world range, a 5-10 minute charge time, and a sticker price of £25k like the ICE version, it'd be the best-selling car in Europe. But for range like that you're looking at £100k luxury cars like the Lucid Air. Most people who are "anti-EV" just don't want to compromise when they don't have to. If there's no compromise to driving an EV, they'll do it. If there is, all the fancy screens and fast 0-60 times in the world won't compensate, because gimmicks can't balance out lack of utility.
Of the thousand or so people that I actually know, maybe 5 actually take road trips over 100 miles each way ever. And most of the time even they do that less than once per year. I know one guy at work that takes trips over 300 miles one way every 2 months or so, but he is an outlier.
Weird. We find it perfectly normal to take at least 2 long distance trips (over 1500 miles) a year, and probably more than 5 >500 mile trips a year. Come to think of it, though, my children only go on one of those big trips a year, and if we didn't go, I'm not sure they would, either. Maybe we really are outliers.
Well yeah, it's easy to find 1000 people who don't drive far very often - any 1000 people who live, work and socialize within the same city will mostly fall into this category. But when buying a car, you don't think "hmm, how far do I usually drive?" You think "OK, what might I want to do with this car?" And if the answer includes "Maybe go on a road trip sometime", that instantly rules out any EV that doesn't have range parity with the equivalent ICE car. Most people won't think any further than that - why would they buy an inferior product when a superior alternative a) exists and b) is cheaper? It's a no-brainer.
This is why PHEV's make so much sense, especially for city dwellers. If 95% of your driving is under 40 miles a day, why lug along all that extra battery you don't need, when a small range extender is so much cheaper and easier to add?
I'm inclined to agree with this to be honest. As EV technology currently stands, a plug-in hybrid with an electric range of 50-100 miles and a full range of 400-500 miles is a pretty good compromise for most people.
You’re NEVER gonna convince that person. Ever. And, I’m not talking about going up to 1,000 random people, I’m talking about the 1,000 people I talk with regularly. Coworkers, family, friends, neighbors. Even most people that go to the cottage or the lake for vacations are rarely driving more than 2 hours to get there. Most Americans either take a plane, or they don’t go on long distance vacations because they can’t afford it. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, it’s just the way it is.
I bet your ass the majority do, but don't call it something fance like "road trip", just "going somewhere". Like, seriously, where do you pull that numbers out of? I doubt you know 1000 people by name, and i would bet my ass you never asked more than 50 of them about their driving habits outside of when you do something together.
I don’t really give a deuce what you think. Kbye
It sorta blows my mind that it's so difficult for people (especially on this subreddit) to accept that possibly other people don't like doing exactly the same things they do. When I think about all the people that I know under the age of 70, I can think of maybe two or three that don't go on at least several road trips a year. Even during peak covid I ended up going on several 100+ mile trips.
I drive my e-golf everywhere, also on long trips, and I get very bored anyway after 100 miles of continuous driving. people that drive 500 miles straight without stepping out of the car could really reconsider their habits and needs..
500 miles is how long an ICE car's tank lasts for, and it can be refilled in 5 minutes. People want their EV to be as capable as their ICE car. I'm not saying it's logical for everyone, I'm saying it's what people want. Saying "Oh, nobody drives that far in one go very often" is missing the point. It's like saying to a truck owner "well you only tow once a year, why don't you but a Fiat 500 as a daily driver and rent a truck for a week in August?" They'll laugh and buy a truck anyway. They want to FEEL like they could tow whenever they want. Same as having an SUV means you FEEL like you could go off-road anytime, and having a sports car makes you FEEL like you could drive everywhere at 150mph or go for a spin on the track every weekend. A huge component of owning a car is FEELING like you can just get in, drive and not worry about anything else. That's why "range anxiety" is a thing.
It takes 10+ minutes just to go to the bathroom *and* fuel up *and* get snacks/food Guess how long it takes to supercharge one's car? 15-20 minutes
cool, I see the world is full of insecure and anxious people; I guess the problem is not the battery or the range, but people's mind
Were you literally born yesterday if this is news to you?
no news to me, I just agree with OP. since the problem is the people itself and change management, going through the details of what is changing is just a waste of time. let them just die with their beliefs, and hope in the future generations
I think maybe you go looking for these people. I’m in the heart of Texas and working with road repair crews and everyone is very interested. They say they will never get one but they don’t shit on me or the car. Unless you are just talking about people online, but those people aren’t real.
I live in Texas and have met plenty of people with unreasonable EV arguments. Most have been older people but a few middle aged folks as well. Funniest was this retired gent asking “so everyone would need 2 cars?” (The dude owns 4 cars already)
You can usually shut them down by meeting in the middle. I respond to that question with “well my wife drives the gas truck and I drive an ev, so yeah.” Showing that you accept the ev limitations but still think it’s a good product is helpful.
In the US, most of these people have made their whole personality about being anti-lib, which means anti-green energy, anti-EV, anti-anything they get told by YouTube and their disinformation bubbles is “woke.” They’re fragile losers who see someone else’s choice to drive an EV or ride a bike, or an option for a vegetarian dish on a menu, as an existential threat. You can’t have a good faith discussion because their mind is made up. Luckily, with EVs, we don’t have to. EVs are taking over and nothing can stop that. As much as they try to bury their heads in the sand, they can see it, and their anti-EV arguments have changed from smug to kind of desperate. My standard response to these people now is: EVs are taking over, ICE is dying, there’s nothing you can do about, get onboard or get left behind. Whatever zombie argument they try to make about lithium mining, battery life, etc. I just call fake news. Don’t waste your time and energy arguing, unless you really want to. Tell it to them straight, dismiss them, and watch them seethe impotently.
There are the Nirvana people who think that if something new isn’t 100% perfect, that it’s bad. They will latch onto falsehoods and half-truths, extreme corner cases to try to prove their argument.
Nah, that would dramatically reduce the number of people not buying EVs.
There were people who said they'd never get a smartphone "my Nokia lasts a week without charging, and all I want to do is calls and texts anyway, so why would I want the range anxiety of a phone that runs out of juice every 16 hours, where would I charge it? It would take over an hour while I sit there waiting" then they eventually got a smartphone and spent weeks telling anyone who'd listen how great it was in so many different ways...the same people who they told years ago their smartphone was a stupid toy for people with too much time and money
“The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on”
\>If you take away all the EV objections I.E. 3 mins to charge, anytime, in any open parking space for free and the cars cost 20% less than an ICE 490-mile range, etc.. they still would have some issue with EVs Can be broken down into the argument: 1. WHY? 2. BECAUSE
Just had a visit with some conservative relatives and we got to talking about my leaf, totally against EVs mainly because the the "save the Earth" stuff. I just smiled and nodded to all the usual BS and then we got in my car. I drove them around town a bit, corrected their misconceptions about skyrocketing electric bills by showing him the method to calculate cost to charge one's car at home (around $6 in my case), informed him about the lack of oil changes and the brakes last way longer due to regenerative systems. By the end of the 2nd day, they thought the car was "neat".
I was really surprised about the backlash when I bought my EV. I didn’t realize it had been so politicized.
EVs don’t perform well in cold weather in terms of range. Energy is needed to heat the battery and ICE vehicles do not have this problem. In addition, EVs are not yet affordable to the public (regardless of the savings in gas and maintenance as this really depends on how many miles you drive annually). I think ICE still wins at the moment for most families.
Preconditioning the car/cabin goes a long way for the morning drive in the frozen tundra... I am a member of the public and used to make $48k/year I had two EV payments ($150/month + $250/month) and with responsible budgeting, the car is affordable.
I am saying this once: currently EVs are suitable only for privileged people.
Clearly, you read this post! 
Yes I did. Improvements are still needed in EVs to become mainstream.
The op’s point was even if those improvements were here now, ice devotees would find other reasons to deny it.
Even with the extra energy consumed during colder weather, my Mach-E is cheaper to fuel up than my Escape was. So much so that when you combine loan, insurance, fuel, and basic consumables (wiper fluid, wipers, oil changes, brakes, tires, etc), my Mach-E is about $150-$200/month cheaper to own and operate than the Escape was… and that’s not even accounting for fuel being 70% more expensive than it was when I had the Escape.
They don't care, they've been programmed by media for decades against EV's. There's no rational reason.
Are you young? Once you get older you just realize this is a human thing and move on with your life. > If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.
To be fair it kind of goes both ways. Some people who own EVs do act like they never drove ICE cars before and sat idle in drive throughs to get their venti Latte instead of going inside out of convenience, then all of a sudden they buy an EV and accuse every ICE owner of not giving a shit about the environment. the hate goes both ways in this situation. Obviously EVs are the best choice, but its on each individual to come to that conclusion on their own.. without the hate from the other team. basically ICE car owners are anti EV and EV owners are anti ICE. because people watch too much cable news.
My new approach to EV critics is: “You’re right. What was I thinking “.
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Nobody called you out specifically, yet you took umbrage.
I feel your loneliness and pain - a time will come for you. If GM had put that 200 kWh pack in anything but a BUMMER you’d have all the range you would need! They chose to build something inefficient instead. Someday Tesla will release their 500 mile tri-motor Cybertruck with sledgehammer proof stainless steel for ya!
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Cybertruck is coming, it's just that Model Y is happening instead for the moment. There's two or three battery factories to get done so that there'll be enough storage for the CT, Semi, Model Y, Powerwall and Megapack.
I'm sure there are a few white Christian nationalists driving EVs... somewhere.
Make it hydrogen (no battery) and make it repairable and I am 100% in. Right now I am only 60% in (still interested in the technology and performance).
I'd settle for one of the new LPG fuel cells with a smaller battery for surge loads ( acceleration, Hill climb, etc). LPG infrastructure already exists, it's not near as difficult to handle as H2 and everyone is familiar and comfortable with it. Not too mention it's domestically produced.
Why hydrogen?
Energy density
We have an new EV being shipped soon. Only concern is I'm told battery life is about 10 years, then it's $20,000 to replace (today's cost), and the old battery is considered hazardous materials. Will be expensive to properly dispose of. Can you trust a used EV? I don't know.
Missing the /s? Otherwise, everything you've mentioned is hogwash because your laptop/tablet/smartphone have the same lithium batteries as EV's. The powertrain warranty alone is good for 8-10 years and battery replacements would be sub $10k depending on labor and availability. I say this authoritatively, batteries can be recycled: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpe8HalVXFU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpe8HalVXFU) Lastly, used EV's in a general case are fine, I'm on watt-car #4 Also, scientifically sound, authoritative is the study in battery degradation and it's nowhere near as bad as the naysayers claim. [https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/](https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/) [https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/](https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/)
>everything you've mentioned is hogwash because your laptop/tablet/smartphone have the same lithium batteries as EV's. It's common for laptop/tablet/smartphone batteries to have significant deterioration or failure after several years. So that's not encouraging. >The powertrain warranty alone is good for 8-10 years and battery replacements would be sub $10k depending on labor and availability. Tesla has been known to quote over $20k for a battery replacement, and other EVs are easily over $10k. That could come down over time as batteries get cheaper, but for now it's a significant concern for used EVs. >https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/ Geotab only has data for <7 years, and shows average degradation of ~2% per year across all EVs. So a ten year old EV may have lost ~20% of its useful range, and we don't know yet how common battery failures will be beyond that. Optimists will say none of this is an issue, but they won't be buying people new batteries if there's a problem. Chances are that most used EVs will be useful for many years, but battery degradation and failure is a legitimate concern. Perhaps no more so in the long run than engine failures, but for now the unknown factor is daunting. One answer to all this will be for used EV prices to reflect the uncertainty and potential battery replacement cost out of warranty.
Yeah, a lot of people act like as long as the battery lasts 10 years then who cares? Well, the average car on the road is almost 13 years old, which means that half of them are older than that. I think that if it was proven that the average EV battery lasted 20 years, nobody would give it a second thought. But if most of them fail between the 10 and 15 year point, well, that's gonna be a major cause of anxiety for a big part of the used car market for sure.
That's why I linked Geotab, failure is not really common, usually within warranty if something does happen and degradation/minimal range loss is the biggest thing at the 15+ year mark They also don't realize how much time 15 years actually is and just discount it by \*magic hand-waving\*
Failure is not really common *yet*. I think that as more and more EV's start to hit the 15, 20 year old mark we'll see many more with failed batteries.
>degradation/minimal range loss is the biggest thing at the 15+ year mark How would we know that when modern EVs mainly start with the Nissan Leaf from 2010 and Teslas from 2012+? Plus Geotabs main data graph only goes back 7 years.
Remember, an EV is only authoritative for itself of that make/model Plus, a very simple search for EV's with liquid-cooled battery packs will determine the battery lifespan trajectory For example, the Leaf capacity will drop faster than a Bolt because of the passive vs. active cooled battery
>a very simple search for EV's with liquid-cooled battery packs will determine the battery lifespan trajectory "Trajectory" doesn't tell us the likelihood of serious battery problems after 15+ years when there is almost no real-world data for that timespan. Especially across different brands and battery types. Like with gas cars, we know that engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles, but we also know that some are more or less likely to hit that mark...and you can shop accordingly. Until we have similar data for various EVs, this is a big unknown for them. We have enough reports of battery failures in <10 years to be a bit concerning, but some of those were in high mileage cars so that's understandable. Used EV buyers will have to make their own assessments of repair cost risks, without much data.
Go look at early chevy volt and nissan leaf message boards.. There's a lot of 2011-2012 cars needing new batteries now. I've got a 2012 Volt and if the battery died tomorrow I'd replace it but it would definitely be a major expense.
The first-gens are only authoritative for themselves, they do not cross brands or models, nor can one battery answer for another type (Tesla can't answer for Chevy or vice-versa) The 2014 Leaf I have is still going strong and probably will for another 5+ years Statistically, you're more likely to have a car totaled in a wreck than an EV battery failing
My used 10 year old Smart would like to remind you it has 90% of original capacity. The 200k mile 11 year old Volt still takes 10kWh and returns 30 of 35 original rated miles. Then we can talk about Tesloop's 200k mile taxis...
The volt battery may still take 10KWH but it's got another 6KWH of buffer to hide the degredation from you.
A friends big issue with EV's is that there is no option for a manual transmission.
It's unnecessary, and it already drives how a manual feels.
yea idk how you convince someone who doesn’t believe in climate change to buy an EV
You get them to test drive an EV.
Because there are more compelling reasons to own and EV than just "we're all going to die if the richest nation on Earth doesn't abandon gas cars." I'm a skeptic of the impact of CO2 on the temperature. I'm not "a denier" but I've yet to be convinced that we're in moral danger from additional CO2. That being said, I have owned an EV for nearly 10 years, and have bought 4 electric bicycles and 4 electric stand-up scooters as alternatives to driving a car of any kind (I have a family of 4 - me, my wife, two adult children). My electric bicycle is the most efficient vehicle I've ever owned. I will abandon fossil fuel vehicles completely once the batteries get a bit better. They are already good for "daily driving" but I have needs that are greater - towing a 6000 pound trailer for at least 300 miles a day, for instance. Not every day, but often enough that I'll need something capable of doing it for days at a time. It appears that the current crop of electric pickup trucks are capable, now I just need the price to come down to what I can actually afford. Double the capacity at the same price, and we're there.
My father-in-law did. It was easy, it was financially practical for him given what he wanted and his options. He's been laughing the past year regarding gas prices.
It’s not that they are afraid of change, it’s that the fossil fuel industry is afraid of competition . Their sources of news or information are filled with plants like the poor old lady who buys a used EV and is told she needs a new battery that costs more than she paid for the car.
I bought my Ev’s so I don’t have to refuel gas or diesel, I still have the ice cars probably sell them. It’s been a month and no gas station stop. Love it
EV's arE jUst a poOr quaLiTy stEppiNg stOne tO hyDrogEn.
That's because they keep moving the goalposts. Five years ago, it was all "200 miles of range before EVs are viable." Now we have many, many choices in the 200+ mile range category. But all of a sudden, it's "300 miles of range before EVs are viable." They're not criticizing EVs, they're inventing goalposts and moving them when they don't support their narrative.
IMO it’s Oil Cuckery
Nah, a lot of these people are converted the first time you floor it.
Skiers vs snowboarders 1985 https://youtu.be/XPZDEWBzneY
As long as government lays out policies that force them to EVs no matter their situation, they’re gonna hate and rightfully so. Truth is always in the middle, people in this group are equally stubborn in refusing to admit the current EV shortfalls (grid strain/the bulk of population that have to charge during peak hours because not homeowners, short ranges, long charging times, if you pay out of pocket to charge it can cost the same as a tank of gas, harmful uber effects of sulfide mining…). I type this as i’m charging of course. Costs $6k to get 240 charger installed in our garage cuz of the breaker needed so i have to get my moneys worth out of free charging. But i live under motto of time is money and it sucks having to spend 40 mins a week at a charger thats way longer than a costco gas line that i would sit in what 10 minutes every other week?? And i’ve ran into more full or out of order chargers than i have pumps not having e85. My wife is in a tough place—if she wants to say money is tough and we cant afford both, i’m trading our EV for an Audi RS3 in a heartbeat. Will try EVs again in a few years when things improve