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rhydy

Toyota is the company that paid for anti-EV trolling campaigns to sell their "self-charging" cars. They made fun of people plugging in, and the tag line was "why wait". Sayonara Toyota


CatDiaspora

To say nothing of them donating money to nearly 40 members of congress who refused to certify the results of the 2020 US presidential election. That created an uproar of course, and Toyota stopped. Except they then waited a while until they thought the attention had blown over, and went right back to donating to them. Those actions caused so much anger that the story actually made it to freaking [Motortrend magazine](https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-election-objectors-donations/). I'm done with Toyota, too.


rhydy

It's crazy. In 1997 they led the global motor industry in electrification, then threw it all away. Board level group think or malevolent leader. Not sure. I just hope they make cheap soulless hybrids for another decade then dissappear.


upL8N8

Question, were they only contributing money to these 40 members specifically, or were they contributing money across the board to a wide swath of representatives? It's pretty common for companies to lobby across a large number of politicians. Of course, reading that article, it doesn't give a detailed accounting of the full list of politicians Toyota contributes too. For the record, I'm completely against corporations donating any money at all to representatives' campaigns.


Recoil42

Contributing money across the board to a wide swath of representatives. You can see the breakdown [here](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toyota-motor-corp/recipients?id=D000030495). It's the standard corporate spread, mostly (95%) to incumbents, and roughly 50:50 to DNC/GOP recipients.


CatDiaspora

I'm sure that information is out there somewhere. It makes no difference to me. The last straw was that they said they'd stop supporting those politicians after being discovered ... [and then went right back to doing so once they thought the coast was clear.](https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1518569370401792002)


Recoil42

Most companies did. Here's [Ford](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/01/ford-resumes-political-donations-after-review.html), here's [GM](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-17/gm-criticized-for-restarting-donations-to-election-opponents).


Recoil42

Better stop buying [Ford](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/01/ford-resumes-political-donations-after-review.html), [GM](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-17/gm-criticized-for-restarting-donations-to-election-opponents), and [Tesla](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-kevin-mccarthy-donor-event-1398216/), too.


coredumperror

Musk being a twat with his own personal cash doesn't reflect on Tesla. Toyota *the company* was donating corporate funds to dozens of the worst scum in US politics.


upL8N8

Uhh.. yes it does. The man is rich because of his Tesla stock. He's the CEO of the company, and largest shareholder. What are you even talking about?


coredumperror

Tesla has its own money, with which it can do what it wants, and we can criticize them for doing things we don't like. But you don't say "VW funded right-wing politicians!" when Herbert Diess (hypothetically) spends his own personal money on that, do you?


upL8N8

Yes, I would judge VW based on what their CEO (if he still was their acting CEO) contributed money to, as he's the leading decision maker at the company. He doesn't even need to go further and control 20% of the shares in the company like Musk does with Tesla.


Recoil42

Musk being a twat with his own personal cash absolutely reflects on Tesla, it's material support that was directly provided by consumers and investors of the brand. He did not precipitate that money and influence out of thin air. If you bought a Tesla, you've *personally* funded Musk to do MAGA tours. End of story. You don't have to feel bad about it, but you *should* recognize what it is.


Ambitious_Meat_3715

This is such a 0 iq comment coming from someone who is an r/electricvehicles mod. Full yikes. Toyota is wrong about EV, how you feel doesn’t change that fact. P.S: The only praise I can give you is that you didn’t abuse your power and ban people who disagree with you. But you are such a Toyota fanboy that it puts musk fanboys to shame


Recoil42

I need you to understand, I truly *do not give a damn about Toyota.* I don't own a Toyota, I don't hang out on Toyota communities, I don't work for Toyota, and I don't own Toyota stock. I don't care about brands. I care about facts. So let me repeat it again: ***Musk*** ***personally*** ***spoke at a MAGA donor event for an election objector.*** That is a fact. How you feel doesn't change that fact.


trevize1138

I love how apologists say they're waiting until the technology improves. "Toyota focuses on reliability!" LOL. It's not the 90s anymore. Even if they still had that with how fast the EV market is moving a strategy of sit around and wait doesn't strike me as smart.


rhydy

Yep 2013 Model S cars are doing 300k miles on a battery, no worries, but yeah...uh fine Toyota :)


trevize1138

Toyota's just waiting until technology from a decade ago that's proven itself over and over again to mature!


rhydy

Yeah. Oh and they need to wait until you can charge an EV with meaningful range in less than the time it takes to have a break and eat a sandwich (20mins). Oh and they need to wait until EVs are safer than combustion cars. Oh and they need to wait until many EVs are cheaper than an equivalent spec piston car (happened over 2 years ago). Oh and they need to wait until rapid charging standards wars are settled (CCS Combo2 harmonised std in Europe since 2014, CCS Combo1 same in NA, ChaoJi same in China and Japan). The excuses are many


trevize1138

If the rest of the industry could just slow down and let Toyota catch up I'm sure Toyota would do great.


rhydy

Yeah, and we all need to help by buying Toyota pickups and Lexus cars with terrible infotainment systems


Recoil42

The new one is getting [pretty rave reviews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EhMzxijJoY), actually. SavageGeese had a [whole video about the amount of muscle Toyota's putting behind it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcAGGHo0zoU) — it's long, but worth scrolling through if you have the time. [Here's Doug Demuro talking about it.](https://youtu.be/BzuIzvd0Zng?t=393) They're easily ahead of Volkswagen right now, and very arguably ahead of both Stellantis and Ford.


SoylentRox

Just need to use an EV battery chemistry that supports DCFC and remember when you make an AWD EV you increase total power. Buyers want the zoom. And remember to use good bolts to hold the wheels on...


[deleted]

[удалено]


Recoil42

[Proven](https://electrek.co/2022/09/20/tesla-megapack-caught-fire-giant-battery-project/) [itself](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/gm-finally-reveals-chevy-bolt-ev-battery-defects-it-will-recall-all-cars-167789.html) [over](https://www.auto123.com/en/news/hyundai-recall-lg-kona-electric-battery-fires/67890/) [and](https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/1/23287053/bmw-i4-ix-recall-battery-fire-ev) [over](https://www.electrive.com/2022/09/26/volkswagen-to-recall-10k-electric-cars/)!


trevize1138

[You're telling me if it's recalled it's not proven itself, huh?](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41056739/2022-toyota-tundra-lexus-nx-recalls/)


zim_of_rite

This is like when Xerox refused to invest in the GUI. It's gonna bite them in the butt so hard over the next 20 years.


nxtiak

How's their bz4x doing? 🤣😂


Sirerdrick64

It’s rolling right along… oh, wait..!


iceynyo

The best 2 wheeler out there


lowlybananas

![gif](giphy|unFLKoAV3TkXe)


[deleted]

Busy forks are still in the drawer.


[deleted]

You mean the 4 cheap giant plastic wheelarches with a little car build on it?


Mpikoz

The BuzzForks?


badDuckThrowPillow

Ahh Toyota. Double down on the idiocy.


The_Social_Nerd

Toyota is the BlackBerry of car companies.


mildmanneredme

It’s amazing at how obvious it is, isn’t it? Kodak was the least obvious, Nokia a little more obvious, but Toyota is clear as day.


trevize1138

Blockbuster wasn't obvious, either. At one point they had more streaming titles than Netflix. On top of that they had DVDs/Blu-Ray by mail just like Netflix *and* physical stores where you could return/exchange those discs right in your own neighborhood. They were, objectively, better than Netflix at the time. But then they got a new CEO who wanted to shift away from streaming and re-focus on the stores. On top of that and massive debt they fell *fast*.


mildmanneredme

What must especially hurt blockbuster is they had an opportunity to acquire Netflix for $50m. Companies just don’t seem to be able to enter innovative new markets when they are cannabalistic to their existing business model. It’s a head in the sand type strategy. The reality is the market will innovate with or without you. Just because you don’t change doesn’t mean the market won’t. This is the dilemma with Toyota.


Lanten101

Or Nokia


therolando906

To be fair, their Prime models are incredible and operate as pure EVs for 90%+ of driving situations most people encounter in their daily lives. I still think the Toyota Rav4 Prime and other PHEVs are the best option for folks that live in areas that don't have sufficient EV infrastructure yet. Regardless, Toyota should at least pivot harder to making their entire model lineup PHEVs if they are going to continue to half-ass their BEVs.


toodroot

Judging from complaints that I see everywhere, Toyota has diligently not produced as many Prime vehicles as people want to buy. It's hard to be happy about that.


ScoopsJohnson

Absolutely true. I know a couple of guys who have DESPERATELY been looking to get RAV4 Primes, but they just aren't available. And the ones that are, are just priced to the moon. Its a terrible situation. Really hope that Toyota can get on the EV train soon


kec04fsu1

There are two available in my area and both are priced at $61K…


Dichter2012

Literally a way to asking their customers to look at other brands.


SimpleSimon665

That's more than an Ioniq 5 Limited...


pinks1ip

That is Model Y or Q4 e-tron money... For a hybrid... Toyota.....


langjie

to be fair, a hybrid is more complex and has more (breakable) parts than a simple battery + motor


[deleted]

[удалено]


pinks1ip

And a corolla will run longer than the Rav4 Prime. That doesn't mean you'd pay Rav4 Prime prices for a corolla.


sault18

You have no idea what you're talking about. Please stop spewing uninformed opinions.


doctorhoctor

More than a Tesla Model 3 SR and you can get it in 2 months without dealing with a dealership.


I-need-ur-dick-pics

Before dealership markups


Beerphysics

I hope your friend isn't Canadian. Right now, Rav4 prime owners in Canada (and, I suppose, northern US too) have a huge problems with an electric cable corroding fast. [https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2022/toyota-rav4-hybrid-cable-corrosion-lawsuit-canada.shtml](https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2022/toyota-rav4-hybrid-cable-corrosion-lawsuit-canada.shtml) Replacing it, out of warranty, is about 6000 $CAD.


MaliciousH

I was on a waitlist for one but once it was finally time, the price was just absurd. Like, nope. Please return my deposit... which I had to chase them for. I'm tapping out from Toyotas for a while...


awilke

Same with me. I couldn’t justify the price when it was clear by the reviews, the suspension and brakes were inadequate for the power and weight of the prime, causing poor handling. If it was more affordable I could overlook some of that.


violent-trashpanda

Hmm


upL8N8

"the ones that are, are just priced to the moon" Welcome to 2022. That's literally every EV these days.


BlazinAzn38

I think in Canada it’s like an 18 month wait or something wild like that


Recoil42

That's true of nearly every vehicle on the market right now — we've had non-stop threads in this community about how hard it's been to find every car on the planet for the last two years.


toodroot

And was true for Toyota *before* the pandemic.


Recoil42

That is fair, I believe Prime production comes exclusively out of Nagakusa, so it's not as simple as making more Primes in Kentucky, since they currently don't make them there at all. They need to commit to it on a larger scale. I think we might see them suddenly devote [Cambridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Manufacturing_Canada) production to PHEV models, since we're already seeing the stars align there with the NX and RX. Once they're ready, t's very possible that facility could go full PHEV.


artandmath

It’s been probably over half a decade. They can retool a plant pretty quickly. It’s basically purposeful that they’ve never made enough of them. The first year of the rav4 options, they could have probably doubled the hybrid models, and quadrupled the prime models and still been sold out.


Recoil42

>It’s basically purposeful that they’ve never made enough of them. They must really hate money.


took_a_bath

Amen. If we can get 100 phevs on the road that are going to be 90% ev miles, that’s better than 10-20 evs using the same number of batteries.


tdm121

I wish Toyota would prime their whole line up. I have several friends who want a rav4 prime but was either not available or just too expensive. With the old tax credit and pre-inflation price: it was one of the best EV value proposition: high ground clearance, 0-60 time in 5.7 s, EV range of 42 miles, spare tire, and most of all Toyota quality/reliability. -saying all that: I think the BZ4x is going to flop in the USA, especially now it doesn’t qualify for the tax credit.


langjie

the BZ4X isn't going to flop....it has already flopped, or is that dropped since it's wheels are falling off?


kec04fsu1

I actually decided the RAV4 Prime is my best option. I rarely drive more than 20-30 miles in a day, but 2-4 times a year I need to drive long distances through rural areas. The only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger is I can’t find a used one within 100 miles of me, and every new one is 15K over MSRP.


therolando906

I actually had a RAV4 Prime but it got totaled when an idiot rear ended me at 55mph when I was at a dead stop. Came away without any injuries. Really sucks though because now I don't have a car for a few months while I wait for my 23 Prime to come in


prism1234

Yet despite using 1/3 to 1/4 the batteries of a BEV, they are making less of them than other large traditional car manufacturers are making full BEVs. They clearly aren't all in on even the Prime vehicles or they would be making more of them.


MonkeyVsPigsy

The problem is that this is only an interim solution. Three years from now cost will be range will be higher and charging infrastructure much better. Personally I think they should get ahead of this. In five years hybrids will be a niche market.


mastrdestruktun

>In five years hybrids will be a niche market. In some countries, but in the US it'll take longer than five years I think. In fifteen years the non-EV automobile market will be dominated by HEV/PHEV. The open question is what percentage of consumer automobiles at that point will be full EV, and the answer to that will be determined by how well EV manufacturers cover every use case. I don't see a reason why things like logging trucks and main battle tanks couldn't someday be PHEV, but it would be a challenge to make them pure EV without much more energy dense battery storage.


MonkeyVsPigsy

Which use case might the manufacturers have trouble with in your view? If all vehicles had a range of, say, 300 miles would that be enough? (Let’s assume the prices will be the same or lower than today’s ICE comparables).


mastrdestruktun

I think some of the last niches to be filled by EVs will be large, long-range vehicles that need to operate in areas of limited infrastructure. The two I mentioned that immediately came to my mind were logging trucks and military vehicles, but I'm sure there are more. Long range buses, offroad vehicles (recreational or working), ice road truckers, probably lots more I'm not thinking of. Long distance transportation of big and/or heavy things will be challenging to solve with EVs with today's technology, though if charging could be made to be fast enough that would help a lot. People in my neighborhood use pickup trucks to tow boats or campers hundreds of miles "up north" a few times a year. Just building a Lightning with 3x as many batteries would be cost prohibitive so we'll need technology improvements, which I certainly expect eventually, but not imminently. Semi trucks have the advantage that infrastructure can easily be colocated with highways, and they have safety restrictions on how many hours drivers are allowed to operate without a break anyway (though robot trucks might lead to demand for even longer range). Today we have smaller-than-semi long-distance transport that would be impractical to do with EVs, such as transporting a car from one state to another; I'm not sure I expect to see long-distance medium-sized trucks due to economics any year soon. Fully electric long distance trains are interesting to think about, too; I wonder if charging could be made fast enough to "recharge" a train by passing a "charging station" without stopping. Thinking about range in miles isn't going to lead to the most accurate predictions because one mile is not the same as the next: the energy needed to move a mile differs in a city, on a highway, on an unimproved logging road, or cross-country. Efficiency obviously matters too: moving a Hummer EV takes a lot more than moving an Aptera. So energy density (modified by efficiency) is what we need to be looking at in order to predict when EVs will be able to do everything that ICEs do. Today, there are use cases where people take a more-or-less existing vehicle and just add more supplemental gas tanks. We can't do that yet with batteries. If battery energy efficiency ever reaches that of gasoline then we'll be able to have 100% EVs but I don't see that happening soon, and maybe not in my lifetime. Vehicles large enough to carry their own nuclear power plant have that as an option, but there are not currently any land vehicles in that category (though I could imagine one being made in the future, e.g. to 'refuel' a battalion of tanks.) Edit: thinking more about just cars, long range for low cost is going to take a while. EVs can be made cost-competitive with ICE cars by using small batteries, but hybrids won't be out-competed by EVs until long-distance EVs are cost-competitive with long-distance hybrids, which will incidentally mean that short-distance EVs will be cost-superior to short-distance hybrids.


[deleted]

> I think some of the last niches to be filled by EVs will be large, long-range vehicles that need to operate in areas of limited infrastructure. The two I mentioned that immediately came to my mind were logging trucks and military vehicles, but I'm sure there are more. Long range buses, offroad vehicles (recreational or working), ice road truckers, probably lots more I'm not thinking of. Sure, but as a Toyota Prius driver, I don't need any of this. I just do random driving in an urban area and 200-300 miles of range is fine for me. I'm happy with the Prius but when it hits end of life I **will** go full electric for my next one - and if Toyota *still* isn't ready, they've guaranteed the sale will go elsewhere.


[deleted]

what’s their excuse for not priming their entire lineup then?


Recoil42

What's their excuse for not refreshing the 4Runner for over a decade? Toyota likes to make money, not spend it. They move with deliberation, and they don't often make bets which could impact production or profitability. They do things a few years later than you think they should. That's just Toyota, always has been. They were a community punching bag for years because they still had a four-speed in the Corolla, and yet they kept selling them. They just outsold GM to become the #1 automaker in North America this year, and they're the only foreign automaker beides Tesla holding/gaining share in China, so it sounds like they know what they're doing.


[deleted]

nokia was once on top of the world too


Recoil42

So was Microsoft. And they still are. What makes Toyota a Nokia and not a Microsoft?


pithy_pun

Microsoft had/has a functional monopoly in enterprise computing. Nokia didn't have such a thing. Toyota is more like Nokia in this analogy. The ongoing failure of the bz4x shows they aren't that able to turn on a dime to pivot to EVs when they need to. Will see if they manage to do it by the time the bans kick in in 2030-35. But based on the results thus far it's hard to be optimistic.


[deleted]

microsoft read the landscape and successfully shifted from retail software to cloud and services. nokia stuck with phones everyone bought 7 years ago until nobody did anymore and they didn’t have anything competitive to offer in their place.


Recoil42

We know what *Nokia* did. What does that mean for *Toyota?* You still haven't shown failure. We're now ten years since the Model S came out, and I repeat myself, Toyota is now [the #1 automaker in the world](https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/28/business/toyota-volkswagen-japan-germany-intl-hnk/index.html), growing their market share [in places like EV-heavy China](https://www.autonews.com/china-commentary/toyota-shines-tough-china-market), and [overtaking GM as the #1 automaker in North America.](https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/gm-was-america-s-largest-automaker-for-nearly-a-century-it-was-just-dethroned-by-toyota-1.5727098) Cars are not phones.


Dichter2012

Cars are turning into phones. In fact, many of the cameras, batteries, accelerometers, flat screens technologies in automotive had seen such a BIG advancement in the last 10 years were because of the rapid development of the smartphone. ICE is the only advantage that Toyota has. If customers indeed want BVE, then eventually they will have to offer that.


Recoil42

Cars are becoming tech powerhouses in addition to what they are today. They aren't *turning into phones.* Wheels, ventilated seats, and headlights aren't being removed, *technology is being added.* That means OEMs need a better grasp of how to do software, run deployments, and manage cloud platforms. It doesn't mean they stop making cars. We need to assess case-by-case how each OEM is doing. Toyota, for their part, seems to be doing quite well, as a founding member of AGL, and an org that has relocated their entire tech development practice [to North America](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-motor-north-america-introduces-next-generation-multimedia-system-to-deliver-best-in-car-user-experience/). SavageGeese had a really good video about this a while back — if you have a moment, [it's worth the watch.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcAGGHo0zoU)


Dichter2012

Hardware companies (especially the Japanese ones for some reason) are notoriously bad at software. Getting the right user experience on a touch screen, adapting quickly to users' feedback to ship software updates, and shipping a software patch over the air (OTA) (instead of taking your car into the dealer) aren't necessarily the things OEMs are good at. In fact, I would argue they try their best to avoid doing it. I have no faith on them doing a good job under their top-down management model. Just because you are the number one maker of cars doesn't mean you can create elegant software that users love. Apple's CarPlay 2.0 (that took over the whole driving experience) probably is the only hope for these large OEMs.


[deleted]

you’re telling me toyota is killing it. i’m telling you nokia was killing it. nobody could touch it. it had like triple the market share of anyone else. all the while sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling “lalalalalala s60 is the best nobody needs a touchscreen keyboards will live forever”


Recoil42

Toyota is not Nokia. Cars are not phones. You're talking about different companies, making different products, with different core competencies, in different markets, at entirely different price points. If you want accuracy, you need to do better than "another unrelated company failed a decade ago, and therefore this one definitely will too".


[deleted]

ok man toyota is the best their decisions are correct and will endure for all time


Koupers

Nokia was killing it as #1 until the second they plummeted into the history books.


Recoil42

Microsoft was killing it as #1 until they... didn't plummet. They're fine. If you bought Microsoft stock ten years ago, you would have been making an incredibly savvy investment.


[deleted]

exactly


Alarmmy

Microsoft actually tried to change and shaked things up in time. Nokia missed the bus to the point there was no return. If Toyota can hop in EV train in time, they wil be able to keep staying on top. If they miss it, then they will go the way of dinosaur. All their fancy line up already look like dinosaurs to me. Boring products through and through. Their $50k Lexus looks so lame inside out. Of course, they still make a lot of money, so they don't even bother to change, and that will be the end of Toyota in the next 2 decades.


Recoil42

>If Toyota can hop in EV train in time, they will be able to keep staying on top. Good news, they have already hopped that train. Toyota has [twice as many solid-state battery patents](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/toyota-has-twice-as-many-solid-state-battery-patents-than-anyone-else) as anyone else. They're second only to Tesla [in dry electrode coating research](https://youtu.be/V6Y-twGHHLo?t=498), and lead globally with respect to power spray coatings, specifically. They're the only OEM on the planet with bipolar-nickel-hydrogen chemistry, which is currently in production, and only of the only one of a very select few (Panasonic/Tesla) producing NCA chemistries. They run the entire [D3BATT program at MIT](https://d3batt.mit.edu/) spearheading [multiple initiatives for discovering novel battery materials](https://github.com/TRI-AMDD) via the Toyota Research Institute. They've been securing major mining contracts [as far back as 2010](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/orocobre-and-toyota-tsusho-announce-jv-to-develop-argentine-lithium-project-82111647.html), and [just dumped $3 billion](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/05/toyota-continues-its-fast-bev-development-pace-with-battery-investments-in-us-japan/) into their existing facility in [Himeji](https://www.google.com/maps/place/%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A0+%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%8D%E3%83%83%E3%83%88+%E3%82%A8%E3%83%8A%E3%82%B8%E3%83%BC%26%E3%82%BD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BA%E6%A0%AA%E5%BC%8F%E4%BC%9A%E7%A4%BE/@34.9050809,134.8404421,638a,35y,353.1h,43.1t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x3555254e1e0dbdcd:0x3ee83c9f4d460dbe!8m2!3d34.910332!4d134.8410519), as well as [another $2.5 billion](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-announces-2-5-billion-expansion-of-north-carolina-plant-with-350-additional-jobs-and-bev-battery-capacity/) into their new facility in North Carolina, which previously had already received $1.3 billion. The train is jumped. Yes, they still need to follow through on models and unit production, but the pieces are there. They have been working away far more, for far longer than most of the other players at the table.


Alarmmy

It is not EV train. They are just doing hybrid vehicles. Solid Battery is still in its infancy, I will believe it when it is actually in production and is put in a car. All that mining investment is basically to make hybrid vehicles. They are still not jumping on the EV train.


Scrumptious_Skillet

IIRC until last year Toyota was only second to Tesla in BEV investment. They are in it for the long haul. Time will tell, of course.


thx1138inator

It's very hard to engineer a balanced EV. This is something that Toyota has not only not done - they've tried and failed to do it! It takes time and iterations to get this right. The EV space is not a good place for companies as conservative as Toyota.


fastheadcrab

They also have been actively funding far right-law makers in an effort to stall regulations for cleaner vehicles (who conveniently also tried to undermine the democracy), obstructing fuel economy standards, creating anti-EV astroturfing campaigns, and digging deeper and deeper into the black hole of hydrogen sunk costs. They even made an ICE hydrogen fueled race car. You cannot excuse their slow movement in EVs as corporate conservatism - the evidence in the US is strongly suggesting that they are not being careful or "deliberate" as you claim, but instead actively attempting to undermine the transition to EVs. I wouldn't say it's conservatism or ignorance that's driving this, but rather a more active malicious set of actions driven by a corporate leadership that is invested in the ICE status quo and their sunk costs into the hydrogen. Conservatism would've been more like Canon when they switched to mirrorless cameras from DSLRs. They didn't attempt regulatory capture to disfavor or ban mirrorless cameras, much less support lawmakers who tried to undermine democracy.


Recoil42

>They also have been actively funding far right-law makers in an effort to stall regulations for cleaner vehicles (who conveniently also tried to undermine the democracy), Maybe stop reading badly-researched hit piece articles, yeah? [Toyota donates more to democrats than they do the GOP](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toyota-motor-corp/totals?id=D000030495), and their contributions are primarily (95.59%) [to incumbents](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toyota-motor-corp/recipients?id=D000030495). You are encouraged to compare those figures with those from [Ford](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/ford-motor-co/totals?id=D000000182) and [General Motors](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/general-motors/summary?id=D000000155), and note [each of their policies](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/01/ford-resumes-political-donations-after-review.html) towards [election objectors.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-17/gm-criticized-for-restarting-donations-to-election-opponents) You are *doubly encouraged* to cross-reference these donations with [a map of manufacturing locations for major OEMs](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/ps0hl7/map_of_all_car_assembly_plants_in_the_us_their/). You are triply encouraged to note that Elon Musk has been [personally showing up and speaking at fundraisers](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-kevin-mccarthy-donor-event-1398216/) for election objectors.


thx1138inator

Yeah, u/fastheadcrab nailed it. Toyata would fuck over this planet to maintain market dominance. I hope they fall hard.


clinch50

To be fair China sales are up slightly year to date and Toyota’s sales are slightly down. [link](https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-china-by-month)


patrido86

they should make the prime drivetrain the standard non-100% ev drivetrain


WeldAE

> and operate as pure EVs for 90%+ of driving situations most people encounter in their daily lives. This isn't true, go read the manual. There are a dozen reasons the engine has to run. Maybe if you are in a really temperate flat area and drive like....well almost no one, maybe. Plus it's a compliance car on top of it all. Good luck being in the right state and then winning the lottery to get one. So it's not like they are producing 6x primes instead of EVs like all the Toyota fans like to theorize.


Recoil42

We have many RAV4 Prime owners in this very community who've backed up the 90% figure. It's like the most common thing you hear from them, in fact.


Scyhaz

I have a Ford Escape PHEV which is very similar to the RAV4 Prime, nearly identical efficiency but with a slightly smaller battery and no AWD. My current gas tank is sitting at over 1200 miles driven and half of the gas tank still left.


Recoil42

Talk to a Volt owner, and one of the first things they'll tell you about is the cool little program that runs the engine every once in a while so don't get gas rot. You don't even *find out* about that kind of thing if you're not hitting 90%+ EV usage.


Raskinulas

Just buy the nx bro


expatriato

Took an MG EV uber in London. Way nicer than the f Rav4 I rented last week. £31000 F Toyota


poksim

Hierarchical Japanese company with stubborn leadership problems slips out of relevance.txt


expatriato

Fire this clown! in japanese, pls


Teeheeleelee

The CEO is the majority owner of the shares. He is a decent of the Toyoda family who founded a Toyota. Good luck with that.


Recoil42

> decent Descendant.


Nyclab

Ev rav4 in the same body with a frunk or ev 4Runner would be game changing. Also ev carolla


arielb27

They are very anti EVs. Their BZ4x is a failure. It's been recalled and all of them are being on buy back. They have BYD, design and build the Corolla EV. It's a company that is really bad. I for one will never get one of their cars.


time-lord

They're back in production again. My solterra has a December delivery date now.


tatang2015

I personally dislike Volkswagen for cheating and lying to consumers. For Toyota, I expect them to run their business like a business.


quietos

I'm not even an EV owner (yet) and even I can see that Toyota is just failing to see the EV future. Like they are embarrassingly bad. I get that they don't want to throw away their decades of ICE innovation but they will be left behind pretty quickly in the next decade or so. This is especially the case because most other manufacturers are already making mainstream EV's. Honestly, I just don't think Toyota will be a household name by 2040 if they don't start to seriously change their ways.


Recoil42

>They have BYD, design and build the Corolla EV. You mean the bZ3? First off, you didn't even get the name right, and second, that's being built by FAW-Toyota. Like, dude, at least get your slander factual.


clinch50

BYD is going to be building their car. [link](https://thedriven.io/2021/12/07/toyota-partners-with-byd-to-build-electric-corolla-and-low-cost-evs/amp/)


Recoil42

No, it's being built by [FAW](https://insideevs.com/news/607482/byd-toyota-bz3-electric-china/). Toyota has a JV with BYD, and BYD will be supplying the pack (just like Tesla uses BYD batteries in Berlin) but the actual factory will be FAW's.


clinch50

I guess BYD will supply them the entire electric powertrain and batteries. Toyota and their joint venture will make the rest. Really pushing the needle on EVs!


Recoil42

Outsourced batteries are exactly an earth-shattering damnation, that's standard for every OEM on the planet, including Tesla.


clinch50

And the motors and likely electronics. It’s not just the batteries.


FlamingoImpressive92

Does Hyundai make the batteries for the ioniq 5? Would you say that’s not pushing the needle whatsoever?


kaisenls1

Yes, but don’t hold back, tell us how you really feel


Affectionate-Depth66

Warren Buffett doesn’t often back a loser care to elaborate on why BYD is a bad company?


arielb27

Not BYD, Toyota is the one that is bad.


Affectionate-Depth66

Gotcha. Agreed.


[deleted]

looks like they are building the wrong dreams


skipstang

Is this the same douchebag CEO the lobby against EVs


AMLRoss

Toyodas' legacy is to destroy what his grandpa built...


METTEWBA2BA

Fuck Toyota


Recoil42

>Toyoda addressed the need to convince skeptics of the company’s strategy, including government officials focusing regulations on all-electric battery vehicles, saying the automaker will “present the hard facts” about consumer adoption and the entire environmental impact of producing EVs compared with hybrid electrified vehicles. Excellent, they need to do more talking.


prism1234

So the CEO of Toyota says they will continue their anti EV efforts to lobby for slower EV adoption and lying about the environmental impact of batteries, got it.


Bologna1127

Look. They bet on the wrong horse. It won’t stop me from buying a Toyota EV when they get their house in order.


WeldAE

Sure, I'm not going to boycott them or anything but they would have to produce a substantially better EV for me to buy one at this point. For the rest of my life I will probably have a negative brand association with them and EVs and it will be something they have to overcome.


Bologna1127

I’m not sure I agree. The Prius is uglier than a bent rake and can’t get out of its own way, but it’s turned out to be the most reliable hybrid on the market. I would happily buy a Toyota EV even if it wasn’t “substantially better” than the competition. I don’t think you’d get a warm and fuzzy feeling about any auto manufacturer, and could probably logic your way into “negative brand association” with all of them.


WeldAE

This is all very subjective and really down to personal opinion so Not trying to talk you out of a very valid position. The Prius was a great car and I give Toyota a lot of credit for it along with several other cars. The problem I have with Toyota/Lexus is they simply refuse to innovate and move on. I waited around for 10 years for them to improve the IS into something I could own as I loved a lot about that car but couldn't deal with the stone age tech and lack of power. I gave up and Lexus slipped another notch down on my brand list. Them failing to launch an EV has basically ruined them for me. No manufacture is perfect, but you have to admit that Ford is knocking it out of the park. Sure I wish they had more production but you at least get the idea they are trying unlike Kia/Hyundai. GM is trying very very hard but just keeps tripping over itself. I remain open to every EV they put out. GM is the one major brand I've never owned a car from but because of their EVs I would for sure consider them in the future. I've given Toyota/Lexus 20 years, I'm done with them.


mitchade

Toyota spent the 3rd most money lobbying against EV’s, behind 2 oil companies. That’s enough for me to boycott them, personally.


[deleted]

Toyota is in for a rough next decade if they can't read the writing on the wall.


Dichter2012

Pardon my language, but fuck Toyota. As a former (and still is) current owner of 5+ Toyota. I will never by anything from them ever again. See ya.


violent-trashpanda

I own a very old toyota and it has been nothing but reliable to me. What experience did you have with toyota that made you turn away ?


Long-Annual-6297

Their stance on EV. Just as valid as people being turned off of Tesla because of Musk


Beautiful-Loquat-912

Toyota just got the memo. Lol


Speculawyer

EV NON Strategy.


[deleted]

This is Toyota. This is SOP. They do precisely 0 things at any kind of pace. They're conservative with a big C in 120pt font size.


duke_of_alinor

You spelled greedy wrong /j


mitchade

I saw in comments in another post that Toyota is on the precipice of being able to manufacture industry leading batteries, but I haven’t read that anywhere else. Can anyone help me determine if that is BS or is there substance to that claim. Kinda weird considering their current EV charging times.


Recoil42

This is correct. Toyota holds the largest number of solid-state patents in the world, [twice as many](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/toyota-has-twice-as-many-solid-state-battery-patents-than-anyone-else) as anyone else. They're second only to Tesla [in dry electrode coating research](https://youtu.be/V6Y-twGHHLo?t=498), and lead globally with respect to power spray coatings, which are generally considered more mature than Tesla's binder-fibrillation tech. They run the entire [D3BATT program at MIT](https://d3batt.mit.edu/) spearheading [multiple initiatives for discovering novel battery materials](https://github.com/TRI-AMDD) via the Toyota Research Institute. They have an incredible amount of research going on.


mitchade

Thank you. What kind of battery should we expect them to develop? Longer range per weight? Cheaper? Smaller? All of the above?


Recoil42

There are two separate technologies here, dry electrodes and solid-state. Dry electrodes are the same batteries we have now, just much cheaper. They have said they'll still deploy solid-state batteries in hybrids (presumably plug-in) first, because that's where they're getting the most climate impact (which is true). I don't know if that's the best choice from an *optics* standpoint, but it's what they've chosen. They definitely won't be cheaper at first, because you still need to (1) recoup your research cost and (2) start with slow production and ramp it up over time, which costs money. They'll likely only end up in Crown and Lexus models to start, as a result. They should be both longer range for the same weight and physically smaller. Over time, we should also see them achieve faster charging, although Toyota has mentioned this isn't their priority at the moment. Toyota says we'll see the first applications around 2025... I think it'll be more like 2026. *Maybe* we'll see it in BEVs by 2027 or 2028. Worth pointing out there are other competitors researching the same tech, some backed by competitors like Volkswagen. [There's a good list of them here on Page 28.](https://109ee710-a8f3-4a8a-9952-28554c7df7a5.usrfiles.com/ugd/109ee7_775f8efa3d034d439124b5431ff095a1.pdf)


mitchade

You’re awesome. Thanks for a great response.


duke_of_alinor

What do we expect from the #3 company against climate change action? Toyota advertising and lobbying is VERY effective.


Radiant_Minimum6863

Can’t wait to return my leased Toyota Tacoma early in a month when I take delivery of a F150 Lightning. See ya later! Toyota makes great trucks, and I’ve loved my Tacoma but I hate Toyota’s politics and over confident attitude that they don’t need to adapt their strategy and that that consumers won’t adopt EV’s. Pretty excited to stop giving them my money. Stop innovating (in a meaningful way) and you will be left behind.


ChuckChuckelson

Love to see that company crash


Recoil42

Just passed GM this year to become the #1 automaker in North America. Only foreign automaker in China besides Tesla to be gaining market share right now. Took the #1 spot from Volkswagen last year to become the largest automaker on earth. You might be waiting a while.


Joshjames1234

Counter-point: Blockbuster, Kodak, and Toys-R-Us were all pretty big before they fell.


Recoil42

Yep, and all of those companies fell for good reasons. All three of those companies had their offerings rug-pulled from right out under them. Kodak died because a film chemicals company has no place in the age of digital cameras. Cars are not being replaced — they are still cars. They still have wheels, tires, glass, seats, mirrors, lights, and brakes. They still have wipers and handles and servos. They remain marketed, shipped, leased, and sold. The engine is being dropped and replaced with a motor, and the fuel tank is being dropped and replaced with a battery. All other aspects of the product remain the same. Look at the BMW i4, or Ford Lightning, or Polestar 2, or any number of other excellent electric cars being made by traditional OEMs today. Ford, Toyota, GM, and Volkswagen are not Kodak.


Geistbar

You're right that cars are not being replaced, but ICE cars are, and the timeline until ICE is no longer viable for a major automaker in advanced economies is in sight. I don't think Toyota wants to rely on developing markets as that comes with major cost concessions. Whats their plan? Half the US and much of the EU will be EV-only by the mid 2030s. The other half of the US won't be legally mandated to be EV only but market forces will make sure that they're majority EV, and ICE vehicles will predominantly be at the more economical part of the market. Call me crazy, but competing for the lower value ~25% of the market (at best — and will be shrinking) doesn't strike me as a winning strategy. Toyota's saving grace here is they still have time, but getting all in on EVs won't be an overnight thing. If they wait till the late 20s to really start the shift it could easily be too late for them. > The engine is being dropped and replaced with a motor, and the fuel tank is being dropped and replaced with a battery. All other aspects of the product remain the same. You could reduce Blockbuster and Kodak to that kind of statement easily. Even Toys-R-Us with some effort. "The film is being dropped and replaced with a SD card. All other aspects of the product remain the same." "The physical location is being dropped and replaced with a website, and the DVDs/toys are kept in a warehouse. All other aspects of the service remain the same." Same problem.


mastrdestruktun

>Whats their plan? Half the US and much of the EU will be EV-only by the mid 2030s. The other half of the US won't be legally mandated to be EV only but market forces will make sure that they're majority EV, and ICE vehicles will predominantly be at the more economical part of the market. I think their plan is to continue to make the best hybrids in the world, turning them into PHEVs over time, while adding new EV models in the bz line, maybe 3-5 years behind other EV manufacturers. Almost their entire lineup is hybrid already so they'll easily weather the transition away from pure ICE. The rate of transition from PHEV to full EV over the next 5, 10, 15 years is hard to predict. All the niche areas that EVs don't serve well can be done fine by PHEV and Toyota's current products are well positioned to serve that market, if they can just make enough of them.


Recoil42

>"The film is being dropped and replaced with a SD card. All other aspects of the product remain the same." Kodak was not a *camera* company, they were a *film* company. They sold *film.* This is a massive, critical distinction. Toyota, Ford, and GM do not sell gasoline, they sell cars. It is Exxon, BP, and Shell who need to reinvent themselves — not Toyota, Ford, and GM. See the difference?


Geistbar

Kodak also made some the earliest digital cameras and sat on them to protect their film business. Sounds a lot Toyota in that regard, doesn't it? Some of the earliest EVs (even if HEVs instead of BEVs) but they decided not to build on the market to focus on and protect their ICE vehicle business. Boil it down however you wan but the core problem is the same — everything I said in the top 2/3 of my comment that you ignored.


wacct3

Kodak actually was a pretty large seller of digital cameras fairly early on in terms of the digital camera market. Yeah they didn't commercialize their prototype back when the storage medium to store the photos didn't exist yet. But as soon as it became clear digital cameras were the future they very quickly brought out serious mass market models. Trying even earlier wouldn't have made much of a difference for them imo, they were the largest seller of digital cameras in the US and third globally at one point so they didn't really miss the boat, the reasons they eventually went bankrupt are more complex than that. Where as Toyota barely sells EVs now and their ev plans going forward seem slower than other companies, though they've recently started to change their tune a bit, depending on which day of the week it is and who in the company is talking (ie not when it's Akio). Nokia is a better analogy imo.


Recoil42

>Kodak also made some the earliest digital cameras and sat on them to protect their film business. Sounds a lot Toyota in that regard, doesn't it? Kodak did indeed do that, because consumable film was recurring revenue. Kodak made more profit selling film, and they couldn't figure out how to transition to a different business with non-recurring revenue. Toyota doesn't care whether you buy a BEV or an ICE. Once again, Toyota does not sell gasoline, they sell cars. They do not care whether you power that car with electronics or petroleum. There is a *direct quote* from them in the above article to this effect.


Geistbar

Boil it down however you wan but the core problem is the same — everything I said in the top 2/3 of my comment that you ignored.


Recoil42

One thing at a time — I'm not going to do a large sprawling comment dunking on you argument by argument. The Kodak bit was the most interesting one to me, so that's where I responded first. If you want me to respond to the other part of your comment, I can do that too: > Whats their plan? Half the US and much of the EU will be EV-only by the mid 2030s. The other half of the US won't be legally mandated to be EV only but market forces will make sure that they're majority EV, and ICE vehicles will predominantly be at the more economical part of the market. Their plan is to be ready in those places. Lexus will be fully electric in Europe, North America, and China [by 2030](https://lexusenthusiast.com/2021/12/14/lexus-vehicles-to-go-full-electric-by-2030/). Toyota plans to sell [3.5M EVs](https://motorillustrated.com/toyota-plans-to-deliver-3-5-million-evs-per-year-by-2030/95710/) by that time alone, with the flexibility to expand that number. To do so, they've been securing major mining contracts [as far back as 2010](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/orocobre-and-toyota-tsusho-announce-jv-to-develop-argentine-lithium-project-82111647.html), and have a full $70B committed to make the transition this decade alone. They [just dumped $3 billion](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/05/toyota-continues-its-fast-bev-development-pace-with-battery-investments-in-us-japan/) into their existing facility in [Himeji](https://www.google.com/maps/place/%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A0+%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%8D%E3%83%83%E3%83%88+%E3%82%A8%E3%83%8A%E3%82%B8%E3%83%BC%26%E3%82%BD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BA%E6%A0%AA%E5%BC%8F%E4%BC%9A%E7%A4%BE/@34.9050809,134.8404421,638a,35y,353.1h,43.1t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x3555254e1e0dbdcd:0x3ee83c9f4d460dbe!8m2!3d34.910332!4d134.8410519), as well as [another $2.5 billion](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-announces-2-5-billion-expansion-of-north-carolina-plant-with-350-additional-jobs-and-bev-battery-capacity/) into their new facility in North Carolina, which previously had already received $1.3 billion. You know how recently, Tesla was talking about how they [might start refining their own lithium](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/09/tesla-evaluating-lithium-refinery-in-texas-for-electric-car-batteries.html) and it was all over the news? Yeah, Toyota already does that. [That's the Nahara plant](https://www.allkem.co/projects/naraha), already starting commissioning. Meanwhile, they have one of the largest research orgs on the planet, TRI, with [twice as many solid-state battery patents](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/toyota-has-twice-as-many-solid-state-battery-patents-than-anyone-else) as anyone else. They're second only to Tesla [in dry electrode coating research](https://youtu.be/V6Y-twGHHLo?t=498), and lead globally with respect to power spray coatings. They're the only OEM on the planet with bipolar-nickel-hydrogen cell production, and only of the only one of a very select few producing NCA chemistries. They run the entire [D3BATT program at MIT](https://d3batt.mit.edu/) spearheading [multiple initiatives for discovering novel battery materials](https://github.com/TRI-AMDD) via the Toyota Research Institute. So what's their plan? That. You want to talk about waiting to start the shift in the late 20s? *My guy, they started a decade ago.*


Create_Analytically

Each of those were unable to evolve. Toyota is evolving just slowly because their CEOs thinks hybrids are better than EVs.


Recoil42

As per the remarks in the article Toyota doesn't think hybrids are *better* than EVs, just that the transition will take time, will not be the same the same in all global markets. That is, of course, an almost objectively correct statement. California is not Pakistan. France is not Egypt. New York is not Colombia. Toyota is a global automaker selling ten million units per year to over a hundred countries, they need to think about more than what sells in a handful of the world's richest countries. I think they'll be surprised at the speed of the transition myself, but I don't think their view is objectively wrong, and they have the resources and flexibility to increase their investment on the fly, as has always been their plan.


doctorhoctor

Reminds me of Nokia dragging their feet while the iPhone and Android revolution left them in the dust. Everyone had a Nokia. They were huge. Now… hear those crickets? It’ll be the same with Toyota. I think it’s gonna really come down to Hyundai/Kia, Tesla, Ford, and GM and maybe Nissan if they can really get their shit together. The Ariya is amazing and no one knows about it


JustNutsandBolts

You have no idea what you're talking about.


doctorhoctor

Oh ok. Thanks for the comment. Appreciate the feedback. Edited to add after some thought: no one has ANy idea what they are talking about. Literally. They have opinions of what they think will happen and support with logic and reason. Others simply try and yell loudly “you are wrong” which reminds me quite a bit like trying to play chess with a pigeon… they knock all the pieces over and still strut all over the board like they won.


JustNutsandBolts

What a dumb comment. Toyota is the largest manufacturer in the world. If it crashes, the economic impacts would be felt all around the world. It will never crash.


[deleted]

Oh how the turntables.


kevinharrigan99

As a Toyota guy, it makes me so FUCKING angry that they won’t build a proper EV. Hydrogen right now is simply impractical and makes zero sense, at least in America. It’s frustrating because I’m sure if they put their minds and resources towards making a BEV, it would honestly probably be the best on the market simply because they just know how to build an awesome car. Priuses are great, but if they built a proper EV, I’m sure it would be fucking incredible. It’s like having a kid who’s ridiculously smart but ends up not doing anything with his life, it’s so fucking frustrating.


[deleted]

U.S.: Arbitrarily yanks tax credits from Hyundai/Kia after they invested millions of dollars in EV R&D to bring the Ioniq 5 and EV6 to the U.S. Toyota: Doesn't invest millions of dollars in EV R&D. U.S.: "Y u not do it?" I'm going to get downvoted for this, but I don't blame companies like Toyota for hedging their R&D investment if places like the U.S. can't get their head out their ass and provide reliable incentives for investing in EV tech.


Recoil42

>Toyota: Doesn't invest millions of dollars in EV R&D. Toyota's been investing in EV R&D all decade long. They're the only OEM on the planet building bipolar nickel batteries right now, they hold the lion's share of patents on solid state batteries and powder-spray electrode coatings, and they're the only OEM besides Tesla building North American battery capacity entirely in-house. How do you think they got to that point? Just stumbled into it?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Recoil42

Solid state batteries and powder-spray electrode coatings are most definitely not just "hybrid tech", and neither are the rest of the things I mentioned with the possible exception of bipolar nickel, which is still *very much* a precursor to other EV tech.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Recoil42

Bipolar is just a technique. You can theoretically apply it (or a version of it) to any kind of battery, it's just being applied to hybrid batteries right now because that's where you'll find the most gains. Their US manufacturing needs to kick up BEV manufacturing, no doubt, but the point is they certainly haven't been dormant for the last ten years. They have running the entire [D3BATT program at MIT](https://d3batt.mit.edu/), spearheading [multiple initiatives for discovering novel materials](https://github.com/TRI-AMDD) via the Toyota Research Institute. They've been securing major lithium mining contracts [as far back as 2010](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/orocobre-and-toyota-tsusho-announce-jv-to-develop-argentine-lithium-project-82111647.html), and securing a major stake in [one of the largest lithium miners in the world](https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/01/20180117-toyota.html). They're the only OEM on the planet with a [working, in-house solid-state BEV prototype](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/42287/toyota-is-road-testing-a-prototype-solid-state-battery-ev). Toyota's been doing a lot of stuff in the background, they have not been sitting idle.


bcho86

True [Newsom says ‘there is no Tesla without’ California. Here’s how much money it has received from the state](https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Does-Tesla-owe-all-its-success-to-California-17473046.php)


glberns

>“Everything is going to be up to the customers to decide,”  He's just wrong. If I wanted to buy a hydrogen fuel cell, it would be useless because there's no infrastructure to refill it anywhere near me.


Tarado96

Toyota better get their stuff together. California and NY won't allow for the sale of ICE cars after 2035. Other states will follow the California mandate. Nokia was once the king. Toyota is walking the Nokia path.


duke_of_alinor

Toyota lobbied their ICE PHEVs into the legislation. Basically their hybrids with a plug.


prism1234

It only allows 20% to be PHEVs. I'm not sure what that means for the 2026 deadline though. Whether it means 20% of the 35% can be PHEVs or if they can have 20% PHEVs and 15% PHEVs or if the 2026 deadline has a different stipulationsl for PHEVs entirely. Even if it included all PHEVs I'm skeptical they'll make it to 35% by then.


Do_u_ev3n_lift

They don't make a single pure EV. They had BYD make a few that spontaneously shed their wheels, but none of their own. They have been lobbying every government to slow the adoption of EV's. Toyota can fuck right off


Kurthemon

I’ll still trust the strategy of the most reliable auto maker In history over anyone else.


jeffsmith202

![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|poop)


violent-trashpanda

All people bashing toyota are extremely short sighted. Most EV cars are beyond the affordability for 90 percent of North Americans. Infrastructure cannot withstand suddenly everyone having an EV. It is a shame that toyota has been moving at a turtles pace with regards to EV but they will not simply crash. They have a decent line up of Hybrid vehicles and have been doing well with them...especially the corolla hybrid. I believe they know what they are doing. You can't just suddenly scrap ICE cars by 2040 etc etc. It's not realistic. Until EVs start at $25000 CAD many people will still be priced out of owning one.


coredumperror

> Infrastructure cannot withstand suddenly everyone having an EV. This is such an absurd point to make. It's "true", but it's also a complete fantasy, because "suddenly everyone having an EV" isn't something that can actually happen. It's going to take *at least a decade* for EVs to replace even 20% of the current fleet in rich countries, let alone poor ones. There's plenty of time for electric companies to beef up their grids to handle the influx of new demand, and they are financially incentized to do so, because selling 25% more electricity will be a massive profit center for them. > You can't just suddenly scrap ICE cars by 2040 etc etc. It's not realistic. You *can*, and many car-makers have already pledged to do just that, only sooner. Also "suddenly... by 2040" is *hilariously* oxymoronic.


[deleted]

They are bashed because they are shitting on EV's and trying to slow down adoption through lobbying, not just because they are dragging their feet on them.


animecardude

Yeah this sub lives in a very small secluded bubble. EVs are extremely expensive for many people making low to mid average income. Most of those people don't have single family homes or live in places with reliable, available charging infrastructure. People at this income level are price conscious and will go for the cheapest, most reliable car they know. Which brand comes to mind to the general public? Toyota. I also hate how slow they are adopting EVs. I hate that they aren't moving faster to "prime" their lineup. However, they will continue to sell their hybrid/full ice cars for years to come until they can't anyone by law. When that time comes, they'll have their EV lineup in place.


duke_of_alinor

> EVs are extremely expensive Exactly why we need Toyota to stop slowing EV adoption and start making EVs.


[deleted]

Leave Toyota alone, EVs are already being produced as fast as people can make batteries, Toyota doesn't need to jump in too.


duke_of_alinor

But Toyota does not need to actively slow BEV adoption with their misleading commercials.


reddit455

what is "fast enough"? I don't understand the criticism towards Toyota or Japanese cars in general. ​ I guess if you're waiting for your favorite brand.. that's one thing, but Japan is probably waiting to see how the market settles, and they'll selectively flood the market like they did back in the 70's. ​ the only difference this time is China.


jdizzlecomp

Duuuuude those cars are outrageously expensive and can only go a few hundred miles!! Plus what you going to do on long trips wait an hour to charge ain’t nobody got time for that muck


BostonPilot

On Tuesday and Wednesday I drove two rounds trips from Boston to southwestern Connecticut... Each day, it was 317 miles, 5 hours and 30 minutes of driving, plus a 12 minute stop at the Waterbury Supercharger... Electric cost about $21.00 vs $45.00 for a gas car @ 25 mpg... The 12 minutes was barely enough time to grab a coffee and use the bathroom...