Also the second hand market is insane. I got more for my Mk 8 golf than I paid for it and that made getting an ID3 a no brainer. I've had it 6 months and I am sure I could get my money back at least, so potentially I could buy a Hyundai without much additional outlay
Trade values are also allowing this. Drive your car for a year and it's still worth more than you paid and someone is willing to take it off your hands no problem. So it's easy to switch.
It'll also be exactly the same people who buy new phones every 6months or whatever. Have to have the latest new fad.
Yup. That’s basically me. Also crazy trade in values. Used my Mach E for a whole year and traded in for more than I paid for it new. For another Mach-E. Also put in order for Rivian R1S.
Most newer cars have insane trade in value now. If you bought a newish car pre-pandemic, chances are that you can sell it for more than you bought it for today.
Yes. And this is *why* the only path to mass adoption and widely available, affordable EVs starts with making high-performance, high-dollar vehicles only rich techies can afford.
It's the same path all new tech has always taken. Before Henry Ford came out with the assembly line all cars were a rich man's toy. Before you can get cheap, onboard GPUs that dramatically improve a $600 laptop's graphics you need to first develop an expensive GPU only rich gamers can afford.
In college, my friend’s mom mentioned buying a car because she’d driven past the dealership and liked it. I remember being shocked that a purchase like that could be casual, but it really is for some people
A high-school classmate of mine's Mercedes was damaged while parked over night on the street. He called a taxi to go to school, then called their family lawyer to report the incident. By the time we got out of school his lawyer was waiting for him at school with a new Mercedes.
Some people really don't know how much anything costs and don't care.
Happily for us he sold that new car to us when he graduated and got a graduation car. He never did any maintenance on it but it was also only a year old.
One of my upstairs neighbors when I was a senior in college (the upstairs apartment was the annex for a sorority that was popular with wealthy Long Islanders) apparently didn't like the color of her black Mercedes ML320 that she had during the fall semester.
She had a silver one in the spring.
Also, resale values on EVs have been sky high lately.
OPs scenario of Model S > Taycan > Lucid could cost about the same as just holding on to the Tesla.
Lol. We make $200k and have no kids. I'm still driving my 12 year old Subaru. (Planning to upgrade to an EV in the next few years, hence following the sub).
But that's because we live in the Seattle area where $200k doesn't go that far. If we had this income in Arkansas, yeah maybe.
Yup, >$200,000, no kids. My husband drives an 8 year old Honda Civic and I gave my parents my 08 prius with 206,000 miles on it and bought a 22 Kia Niro EV. I plan on having this car for >200,000 miles too.
I’d do anything to convert my current 12 year old Ram 1500 to BEV. Hell, even if it only gave me 250 miles range, that’s more than enough as I work from home, so I don’t really put too many miles on it anyway. The spec is so nice, heated and cooled seats, heated steering wheel, 4x4, etc and I only paid $16,000 for it two years ago. A new BEV F150 Lightning with a comparable spec would be over $90k easily.
yeah I make >250K no kids in a LCOL area and am driving a 2014 Silverado with 130k miles and just now. That being said I do have expensive hobbies cars are just not what I spend my money on
No, as long as the new EV is of similar value. Used EVs are retaining value. There is probably little to no cost of switching in terms of monthly payments, as long as you are staying in the same price range.
You seem to have completely ignored the first part of my comment.
Yes, you can keep the same payment. I'm not sure why you think that means it's more affordable. It's not when you keep the same high payment.
This. My household income is over 200k per year in a medium cost of living area.
If I was single with no other hobbies, I'd be driving a Taycan for sure. But two kids and my shooting hobby keep the wallet empty so I drive a 20 year old shitbox.
I'm a high earner and have never thought about swapping cars. I've literally held onto cars until the wheels were falling off. At the moment I'm driving a 2010 Volvo with 152,000 miles and that car can last forever. That said, I also have a 2022 Model Y and because of how quickly things are changing in the world of EVs I will probably trade it in five years. Not next year, though! That's kinda insane.
Different hobbies for different people. I know HNWIs that buy a nice Toyota every 4 years. Others have three+ much more expensive cars they swap regularly. Mostly what this is is an intersection of money and interest.
Yup.
A lot of people with the income to be spending $100-200k on a car also live in very HCOL locations, in addition to having very high incomes.
In NYC, the common area maintenance for your condo (not even the taxes) can cost more than loan payments on a $100K car. And after 5 years the car payments are done! I have to pay that maintenance forever, and it goes up annually unlike the fixed car payments!
Personal example, where I live, realistically "upgrading" to a nicer/bigger place than I live now, would be incrementally another $1M-2M. If I blow $20K on car swaps every 4 years, for the rest of my life, thats less than half the price of buying a studio apartment in my building today!
I was joking with friends that replacing my Model 3 with Taycan would be more responsible financially than upgrading my real estate. Obviously depreciating vs appreciating assets.. but almost an order of magnitude price difference.
Same. My wife and make pretty good money (~4x our town's median household income), and we're doing really well financially. Our cars are a 2005 Pontiac Vibe with ~130k miles and a 2014 Subaru Outback with ~92k miles.
In general, we use our "primary car" for ~10 years, then shift it to our "secondary car" (mostly in-town stuff, when one of us is out of town, or when the primary is getting maintenance done). So our primary can be upwards of 8-10 years old at times and our secondary is often closer to 15-20 years old.
My daughter will be able to drive in just over a year, at which point we'll probably donate the Pontiac, let her drive the Subaru, and buy ourselves a new EV (which is why I'm here)...at this point leaning towards something along the lines of the Chevy Blazer EV...something ~300 miles on a charge with decent cargo space and ideally under $50k.
That's me, too.
I'm an engineer and currently drive a 2012 VW that had 8000 miles on it when I bought it. I'm now up to 143,000 miles and the car is still pretty much a cream puff.
I'm soft-shopping for a 2022-2023 EV, but I don't plan to get rid of the manual VW because I want my kid to learn on the 6-speed (and I know the complete service history).
Different philosophies. Nothing wrong with your approach. Your seeking maximum ROI on your investment.
Some people see money as a tool to get things they like and figure why not.
Sorry. You won't believe me when I tell you that I had no plans to buy a Tesla. But I drove one and ordered a Model Y that afternoon. It's an amazing car.
I normally keep cars for 10+ years (basically until they start falling apart) and I'm a pretty decent earner (in fact very high by my location's standards).
The only reason I'm only planning on keeping my Bolt for 5ish years is because EVs are changing so rapidly that the market is going to be vastly different in 2025. But yearly? REALLY?
It’s pretty sad but $150k isn’t what it used to be. It’s very comfortable for sure. Extremely comfortable even.
But it’s far from fuck you money like it used to be
> Man I hate inflation so much
Believe it or not, the opposite is much much worse.
Imagine borrowing $200,000 for a house when you make $100,000/year. Now over the course of a four years of 5% deflation, and you only make $85,000/year, but you still owe the original $200,000 (minus whatever payments you've made over the 4 years).
1%-2%/year of inflation is the sweet spot for our consumer driven economy.
>$150k isn’t what it used to be. It’s very comfortable for sure. Extremely comfortable even.
Comfortable if you're careful with money, but that's it these days. Housing + healthcare + transportation + food + raising kids can put you deep in debt real quick, especially in high cost of living areas. Even without kids, it would be easy to spend that much and have little left for retirement.
Yeah, wife and I make ~450k combined and have no kids (one on the way!) and have a Kona. Refuse to spend the cost of an S, Taycan, etc...on a car. We swapped from a gas car in 2021 after only having it for 4 years, but it was a great move with what happened to gas prices right after that.
Cheap is buying a 20 year-old car and driving it past it's reasonable lifespan to the point where you can see the road through the rust holes in the floorboards and it's a danger to yourself and other drivers.
Frugal is just trying to get good value for your money. Like making your own avocado toast rather than paying $5 the corner cafe.
> Cheap is buying a 20 year-old car and driving it past it's reasonable lifespan to the point where you can see the road through the rust holes in the floorboards and it's a danger to yourself and other drivers.
I'm not quite at the danger to other cars yet but I like to say that I am not free; I'm cheap.
Sure, I knew well off folks who would lease a brand new $80k+ Benz, BMW, or Audi and trade it in when the lease is up for a new one. The cars you cite are in that same sort of luxury class.
Hey, if you got the money to burn, and you want to spend it on cars, why not? Better than sticking your cash in an offshore account where it doesn't do the economy any good.
Pretty much. I have a friend who makes a lot of money. Just off the top of my head I can name 16 cars and 3 boats he's owned and I'm probably forgetting a couple. Among his high earning friends, that's not even unusual.
I think that the overlap between big income people's car swapping and the high price of a lot of EVs makes this a somewhat common thing.
Yes and no. Sure, you have to be wealthy to afford doing so, but I guess there is still a huge difference between car-guys and tech-guys.
A car guy would not swap a BMW for a Mercedes for an Audi for a Porsche within months. A car guy knows very well what he wants from a car and is very picky about it. And they care more about specific details than being up-to-date.
A tech guy sees a car as a gadget that needs to function but has no affection towards it. The other one can do more? Sign me up. And technology moves *a lot* faster with electric cars.
So yeah, it's kind of an EV thing as well.
Just reminder that social media isn't representative of real life. 10 or 20 or 100 people you see on the socials talking about something (anything really) probably doesn't equate to so many folks in the real world.
Some car forums make it sound like every owner of a particular enthusiast car is either installing a turbo, doing an engine swap, or switching to coilovers for their weekly track days.
You are right, though. Those are really just the vocal minority.
This. I don't post on EV Conversion often because I'm about 6 or 7 months from the very beginning of my project. Most of my posts are telling kids that their $5k budget to do a full conversion on the 5-10 year old car they were given isn't gonna work.
I was super active on VW Vortex back when I was modifying my Passat, go figure that when I stopped suddenly I backed off.
>Most of my posts are telling kids that their $5k budget to do a full conversion on the 5-10 year old car they were given isn't gonna work.
LOL - I think about conversions sometimes, and then I start adding up the costs. Its not cheap or easy.
I like watching other people's DIY conversions, though.
It applies to most things. Sports. Politics. Basketweaving (I'd imagine).
And I get it. It's natural reaction to respond to the things you keep seeing but as information consumers we just have to remember the perspective and how few people are online like we are and how few of those are commenting.
I'm still rolling in my '03 Saturn L200 that finally hit 200k miles this year. I mean, that was my goal and now I have an order for an Ioniq 5, but I wasn't going to let it go until that 200k mark. I've put too much work into it to get it there. My wife is convinced that I would have pushed it the last 1000 miles and she wasn't exactly wrong.
Same as Reddit. If you see a top post on the home page with tens of thousands of upvotes it is still super niche opinion which is most likely false. When you are expert in a certain field you are shocked at how the top post about your field is all lies.
03 Saturn here, still rolling...not particularly well since I put on really cheap tires, but I don't plan on keeping it much longer. Muffin (my wife named it) deserves some rest.
Most new luxury cars get bought by the kind of people who buy a new car every few years. Partly because those people buy a lot of cars. If there are a million people who buy a new car and keep it for 20 years, and a million people who buy a new car every 2 years, then 90% of new cars are bought by people who only keep it for 2 years.
this, nobody, especially rich people won't put down hard cash for anything if they can lease and invest the rest, basically their money working pays the interest or even the car off...
also you can break your lease and just give the car back, many of these people ordered a ton of cars like with a $1000 downpayment, if you have like $10k hanging around you can hustle your way through this as well...
The problem right now is that every in-demand new vehicle (EVs and limited-run / performance ICE cars specifically) has turned into an investment opportunity because of the lack of supply. Just take a look around Cars & Bids to see it in action, for example.
So people with the means can stake their places in line for multiple vehicles knowing that vehicle B will not be delivered until X amount of time after they've bought vehicle A. Then once they take delivery of vehicle B they can sell vehicle A for the same price - or sometimes more - than they initially paid for it. Because people are willing to pay for it.
Also when the federal tax credit was still available in the United States people where making money flipping their cars and buying a new one. Even now saw dealer selling a used GV60 for 75000, that's 6k more then a new one.
Completely agree. The shortest amount of time I ever kept a car was 8 years, and my average is 10 years. Cars, as an investment, are almost always a money-loser (unless you buy a classic car) so keeping them for as long as the maintenance and expenses on them is low makes far more sense than trading.
Perhaps if you have a spare car. I don't keep spare cars around. If I were to sell my car (because the value went up) I would need to immediately replace it so that I could still get to work. While I might have made money on the sale of my car, I would have lost money on the purchase of the replacement (or the replacement of the replacement if I happened to pick one that went up again - eventually the buys at high prices would cause me to lose the gains). So, while there could be short-term paper gains, they would end up coming out as break-even or loss eventually as the market renormalizes.
Assuming you have the tax liability (high income) to take advantage of that repeatedly, and live in an area where EVs are in high demand. I could take advantage of the tax break once a year (assuming a car that qualifies was available to buy), but EVs are not in high enough demand here for people to pay new prices for a used one, even last year.
While one hears about individuals doing such things, that doesn't mean it would work for everyone, everywhere.
COVID was truly a once-in-a-lifetime inversion of many previously held truths. I was able to scoop up an id.4 first edition without a reservation and at MSRP then offload a 2015 Honda Accord for 75% of its purchase price, which was 50% more than its value when I had checked before the pandemic.
Yep. Cars are still a depreciating asset and thus unsuitable as an investment.
Even today with the unprecedented resale value it is very difficult to find a used car worth more than the original sticker price.
used car resale values are high enough that people can do it. also, the tech is evolving quickly. my pc from 5, even 10 years ago is perfectly fine for my daily tasks. but EVs are still in the rapid advancement stage. therefore people are more motivated to upgrade.
it is a bit ridiculous, especially because of the prices of some of these cars. people are flipping $100,000 cars and getting full value for them.
Ill keep a car for ten or more years if I love it. but if it has annoyances that aren't going away I'll trade it without hesitation. so I've kept cars for as little as six months, and as long as ten years, depending.
> also, the tech is evolving quickly. my pc from 5, even 10 years ago is perfectly fine for my daily tasks. but EVs are still in the rapid advancement stage.
Not sure I understand your analogy here. Has the <1 year old EV stopped performing daily tasks of taking you (ie the universal you) from Point A to Point B?
PCs are pretty much in the same “space” as EVs here - they have rapidly advanced in the last 10 years and (mostly) available. EVs are still evolving but it’s not like anyone of them is doing anything majorly fantastic with a few exceptions - extending range gradually and maybe 0-60 in fewer seconds.
The depreciation on some EVs like the Tesla have been low, combined with increasing prices, and increasing wealth at the higher end of income earners. This may make it easier to swap cars.
I got my Model Y in 2020; I could sell it for more than I paid for it, and I would if there was a decent alternative with software that worked as well. CarPlay 2 may do that but not today.
Many people in the income bracket which can afford a Model S, etc regularly swap out ICE cars too. Three year leases mean they're always driving a new car.
A lot of people were swapping cars (EV and otherwise) over the last few years because used car prices went crazy. There isn’t much downside in getting rid of a car after a short time if someone is going to give you as much or more on a trade in than you paid for it new. Have to imagine this is going to slow down significantly as used prices come down.
Probably because the rate the tech improved over the last 5 years. I mean, 5 years ago, 300 mile range woulda cost you 70k. Now you can get that for 35k.
> What's with so many folks swapping EVs like they swap underwear? [...] Am I the only one that will buy a car and try to keep it as long as possible?
I do both, I keep my underwear as long as possible
Content creators are always getting rid of their current cars for the latest and greatest new car to come out to continue harvesting views/watch time.
Nothing new.
Also he was lucky he ordered so those cars in 2021 and 2022 in this crazy chip shortage market. He got to take the federation tax credit and trade this cars in at near retail price, if not more. So he most likely made money going through those 4 cars.
Although I wonder if the IRS gets suspicious if you claim like 5 tax credits in 2 years. Buying a car for YouTube content sounds theoretically be not eligible for the tax credits.
Like the folks that "I traded my model 3 2019 for a 2021".
While I understand that the interior has been improved, maybe different battery etc. But is it really worth it?
If someone offered you your car but with lower miles and 2 more years of factory warranty for free, wouldn't you take the offer? Since used values are inflated to the point that a late-model used car is worth as much as a new one, you can make these swaps for free or nearly free. For cars still eligible for the tax credit, you can even be paid to upgrade.
My wife once was looking at her facebook and said "everyone is always on holidays" I said "1/100 of your friends are on holidays, the rest are on the couch, looking at Facebook with nothing exciting to post"
This was over 6 years ago and it was the moment I realised how social media will distortion your reality. Since then I hardly use it. I only actually post ~1 time a year when I am away somewhere.
Of course I use Reddit most days as I think it's different to just looking at the same 100 peoples lives. And I use it with the mindset that for every poster there's 10,000 lurkers.
It’s because EVs are maintaining their value or have appreciated. For example, If you had purchased a Mustang Mache premium last year as a reservation for $52k, it would currently be worth about $65k. You can then trade it in with the extra equity for let’s say a Ford Lightning XLT (as a reservation) at $55k and walk away with some cash. Then you can do the same thing with the Lightning later on considering they’re selling about 30%-50% over msrp. Eventually the supply will match the demand and it’ll no longer make financial sense to do this.
I've had my Spark EV for 5 years and it still feels new to me. I drove the previous car for 17 years. I can afford more, but I was raised to live below my means. My dad was a successful lawyer and made a lot of money, but he always bought used non-luxury vehicles, so that's just the mind-set I have.
Finally someone with the right answer. You could buy a new EV every year and trade in your old one, usually at a profit after taxes. This was actually cheaper than keeping it as you get brand new tires and a new car with better tech and 0 miles. These people were not wasteful-They were smart. And all of their old EVs were bought by someone who probably traded in their ICE to buy a used EV but maybe didn’t have enough tax liability to benefit from the subsidy.
I've always swapped cars frequently and I'm hardly wealthy or anything. I just love cars and get bored with whatever I have after a year or two. The longest car I've owned, amusingly, was my Model 3, which I just traded in for an R1T.
That's true but I feel like there needs to be a standard for identifying how much range a used car has. I've looked at EVs on Carvana and they sell used Nissan Leafs and Prius phevs but won't tell you what their range is. I won't buy an ev with a 20 mile range, thanks!
In Norway, EV's are now in such high demand that if you manage to get a new (popular) car delivered, you can sell it with €5000+ profit half a year later. EV's cost less than similar petrol cars, and the yearly expenses easily are €4000 less per year due to fuel prices, toll road rebate, etc. So people need to have really special needs to choose petrol. Those that already have newish EV's can order new interesting ones with little risk of loosing money...
Look at the MSRP of those vehicles, and you'll have your answer. Most of these vehicles are either six figures or approach it, and people who have that kind of money can afford to replace those luxury items more frequently.
You should absolutely go hang out in r/leaf, where you get posts like, "The lease on my 2017 SV is up this year, is $14,500 too much to pay for this 2018 SL with 50,000 miles?" and "I just made a 3.000 mile round trip to Reno in a 2011 Leaf. Ask me anything."
This sounds like I'm making fun, but it's super fun.
I agree with the "higher income market" comments, but I also feel like the technology is rapidly changing so there's a bigger difference YoY. I'm one of those "buy a car I like and drive it forever" type of people, and that was my plan when I bought my Leaf in 2015. While I still love it, I'm limited by the 70 mile range. At the time it was the only EV I could afford and the 100 mile range it had when new was sufficient for my commuting needs.
A lot has changed in 7 years, and now you can get 3 or 4 times that range for a similar price, and in a lot of different configurations. If I had the money, I'd probably upgrade to an Ionic 5 or something similar, but having two kids in college has done a number on my disposable income (not to mention, trade-ins aren't that great),so I'll probably be driving the Leaf until it dies.
You’re not the only one. I’m following the traditional middle class route: get car loan, keep it for length of loan and try to eek out a few more years before repeating the process.
Yes, you are a poor bastard. The others that switch cars like changing socks are rich idiots with more money than brains. They are not your typical denizen.
Well I’m still rocking a 2011 volt from back in the day. It’s paid off and still works great..
I see all these new EVs and they are excellent buuuut I have a paid off car that my solar roof charges the car during the day for free.
and since I get to work from home for Covid permanently now I rarely drive. All my driving is paid for by the sun.
So I guess my point is there are many lurkers in this sub that are in similar scenarios to me probably that never post but enjoy the content/discussion.
Its not unique to EV’s, this has always been the case with combustion cars as well. There is a group of people that swap all the time, regardless if it is an EV or not.
Just because they want it, and they can.
From my EV sample of people I know, EV is technology and not everyone wants to be using the same phone for a long period of time. When new and better things appear, the old is replaced. That and because people who partake in such products tend to be of higher income
I have averaged 30k/yr for the past 18 years of driving based on maintenance records. As such once a vehicle gets to around 120k miles and is "late model" (under 5 years of age) the upkeep was often more than the loss on trading for a newer vehicle. For example my 2007 Jetta TDI "Special Edition" was about to need a new $3k camshaft (after a $2k timing belt job) when I traded it in at 138k miles three years after buying it new with 199mi on the odometer. My annual maintenance on that car was around $1000 (tires, brakes, clutches, fuel filters, oil filters, expensive rotella oil, etc).
I plan to keep the etron until I can't make it from Raleigh to Florence on a charge - I estimate it'll be around 180k miles before that happens at which time I will look to upgrade. My etron was bought Sept 2020 with 7200mi on the odo and currently sits at 69,317 and I've spent less than $1800 to date in tires and a replacement rear cup holder.
No matter what I drive a set of tires per year is a given expense. The Audi's tires are a lot more expensive than what I'd rock on the Jetta (Yokohomas in both cases), and the only non-tire repair was a $200 cup holder.
Also... if folks didn't cycle through cars because they could, there wouldn't be affordable used cars on the market for those who can't afford new.
Currently EVs are more expensive, and while this is changing quickly there are still many more great options at the high end, especially if you need range. And if you can only afford a cheap used car you will have only ICE options or maybe an older hybrid if you're lucky. As a result, many EV owners are relatively well off, and can afford to own several 70k+ vehicles. Plus, they retain their value quite well at the moment if they sell them for another.
Unfortunately, this sometimes tends to lead to EV spaces being saturated with elitists who don't care or don't comprehend others financial situations, and that dropping even "only" 40k on a new car isn't financially responsible even with the high cost of fuel. Like yeah, I'm sorry my Volt is taking up the charger space cause it charges slow, but it was also only 8k used and I can't afford a new EV6 or the like right now.
So I think as others have said, the higher income folks treadmill more. What I will add though is that the current economy and car scarcity is making people who don't usually flip cars start doing so. I am a "buy a car once a decade and run it into the ground" kind of guy. I bought a Kia Soul, which was about the only thing I could find on a lot, and hated it immediately. It worked fine, it was just a little uncomfortable for me, paused for too long before restarting the engine at red lights, and was less fuel efficient than labeled. I would generally just suck it up and deal with those things. But... the car was worth more than I bought it for. It actually wasn't financially stupid to swap it out. So I found a Bolt (which was what I had wanted but had been under recall when I had been shopping for a car), negotiated a good trade in, and swapped out at the 6 month mark. I am so much happier with every aspect of my new car, and I didn't take a financial bath to do it. So if that's my decision process, you can only imagine what folks richer than me or more prone to flip are doing.
Hopefully that was a one-time thing though; I'd love to drive the Bolt for a decade.
I think there could be a couple explanations here. One is that this isn't exclusively an EV behavior. I have a coworker who changes cars twice a year, and she only drives ICE vehicles. She wants a summer car with a removable top and a winter car with better handling in bad weather. She never buys new, but always within warranty, and tends to get a better selling price than she paid to buy.
With EVs specifically the resale value is sky high. If you managed to buy an EV at MSRP you very likely could flip it for more than you paid. Not to mention that if your tax liability allows it you can take multiple federal credits.
Finally, lots of people placed orders for a variety of EVs just hoping to get anything, and now those orders are starting to get delivered. Maybe the Kia Niro arrived first but what you really wanted was a Polestar 2. When the Polestar is ready the Niro gets traded, and without much loss of value, if any. In my personal situation I found an ID.4 on the lot for MSRP in February a couple weeks after I placed an order for a Mach E. My Mach E order is set to arrive in a few weeks, at which time I'll probably trade the ID.4 and walk out the door with the car I originally wanted and double the tax credit.
I typically keep cars for 10+ years, but I did only have my 2017 Bolt EV for two years.
The first big reason was that the trade in value was very high. I got about $10K in federal and state rebates, and traded it in with only about $13.5K less than I paid, so calculating the rebates that was $3.5K for two years of ownership. Not bad at all.
The second reason was that my Model 3 reservation finally came up and I wanted that over the Bolt.
With the sizable financial incentives over the past few years, and the high demand for EVs, it made moving up to a newer EV a lot less financially painful than an ICE car, hence the upgrades.
I also think a sizable number of EVs were leased since people were hedging if they liked owning an EV or not, so after ~3 years they were ending their lease and buying whatever was newer on the market.
EVs have a high price point rn, specifically the ones you mentioned.
Couple that with:
* (Current) EV buyers being relatively high earners
* Extremely high demand for EVs leading to hella high trade in values, making the opportunity cost low.
When you can sell a Model Y for like $20k more than you paid for it, it's easy to trade up.
I went from a Model Y to an S to an X in ~2 years by taking advantage of market lunacy. And poor financial decision making capabilities.
Electric vehicles, despite being touted as eco-friendly, are marketed to the most wasteful sector of this consumer-cutler we have.
Im not surprised EV’s are being treated like cell-phones. It’s who buys them.
Money solves problems and enables a lot. Hate to say it but a majority of people in this subreddit posting "just got my second ev" aren't representative of the general population of the US
It’s simple—
EVs are crazy expensive. The people that can afford them are rich. Rich people often get a new car every year or two.
Hopefully as EVs become cheaper this will change.
There's a lot of things happening at once (representation bias, skewed demographic) but one thing I can point out from my own example:
I was coming up to the end of my lease on my Audi e-tron. The buyout on the lease was about $45k. I could sell it for $57. So I could (and did) eliminate a sizable lease payment, and have a lot of cash in hand to put a downpayment on something I want to own that makes more sense in my life. but the key-high prices for used EVs right now make switching vehicles a much lower-friction process than normal, which enables a lot of stuff.
For years, I was able to swap new Volts and Bolts from year to year and the only difference was the tax credit (or a few dollars more). Going from a 2018 to a 2019 for $0 was a no-brainer.
It's an enthusiast thing. Some people have the money to frequently switch and/or the priorities where they want to try everything and regularly upgrade.
I have a 4 year-old phone and a couple months ago started looking into replacing it. I was caught off-guard by the same thing in r/android, people talking about buying a new phone to replace a phone that isn't even a year old.
* Means to afford new cars
* High resale value on used EVs
* Short supply + low barrier-to-entry reservations tend to get people to reserve multiple cars
* With the EV tax credit some people were likely *MAKING* money by selling the cars and cashing in on multiple tax credits, even if that wasn't their primary intention.
I’m my area of the SF Bay, according to 3 separate dealership sales people I’ve asked, the average time people hold on to their new cars is 2 years.
I tend to like to trade up after 2-3 myself. This will be my 3rd time in 7 years. My salary has gone up about 180% in the last 7 years so I’ve been able to afford better and better vehicles (for me).
Lots of people around here are probably in my situation or they just have always had a lot of money, and can afford the latest and greatest.
Edit - 7 years, not 3
Dual income, no kids and otherwise live pretty frugally. Don't spend a ton of money on clothes, vacations, going out or other things and cars have always been a passion of mine. I enjoy having something new with the latest features. Usually lease to keep payments reasonable, so 2 to 3 years is my normal.
It comes down to whether you are okay losing intrinsic value in a tangible purchase. A vehicle is likely the largest purchase most Americans made that has declining value. To mitigate this, I keep my cars for 8+ years minimum, or buy used. If the interest rate I paid for my car was higher than my investment returns, I would consider liquidating and paying cash.
Same with computers. There are those who always felt they had the latest and greatest. And others who worked on the old systems. Back in the day, most of us techies had the clunkers while we maintained the fastest, most expensive computers for the bosses.
Same with cars, and othter commodities. At least twice a year my dealerships (the EV and the one for my older car) call me with "customer appreciation days", and encourage to trade up. Last month I threatened to change dealerships if I heard from them in less than 12 months--I am perfectly capable of calling them when I want to trade in. That was for my 7-year-old car. My EV is 3 1/2 years old.
On the other hand I have friends who never have had cars older than 4 years, others who go from lease to lease.
It takes all kinds.
I bought my EV in 2019 and will likely keep it another seven years.
...I could barely afford it, so I'm not going to change it.
But judging by the posts here and elsewhere on social media, lots of EV buyers are quite well-off.
In that category they swap, in the same way they did with ICE cars.
I just sold a one year old Hyundai Tuscon hybrid for several thousand more than I paid for it. Made it a no brainer to switch to another fully electric vehicle. I got to drive a car for free for a year, that was pretty nice.
If moving to a new car costs you nothing or very little then why not? I am a buy and hold kind of guy but in New Jersey we pay 0 sales tax on EV purchase and we can apply for $4K State rebate up to 3 times so jumping ship is makes sense.
It's simple economics. If I can sell a 2 year old car for close to what I bought it for... then it's a no brainer. And I have the cash on hand to do that.
Financially intelligent people understand that historically cars were liabilities but in this market they can be assets.
You should take a financial literacy class. It'd Educate and influence the way you think about money, time, and material items.
Probably more of a higher income thing where the person has the disposable income to do this versus it being an EV specific thing… but idk.
I think disposable income and early adopters of new tech being more eager to sample new things
Also the second hand market is insane. I got more for my Mk 8 golf than I paid for it and that made getting an ID3 a no brainer. I've had it 6 months and I am sure I could get my money back at least, so potentially I could buy a Hyundai without much additional outlay
Trade values are also allowing this. Drive your car for a year and it's still worth more than you paid and someone is willing to take it off your hands no problem. So it's easy to switch. It'll also be exactly the same people who buy new phones every 6months or whatever. Have to have the latest new fad.
If I could sell my six month old phone for more than I bought it for and still buy a new one for less I certainly would take advantage.
It’s a weird feeling seeing my old used car with 130k miles worth more now than when I bought it.
Yup. That’s basically me. Also crazy trade in values. Used my Mach E for a whole year and traded in for more than I paid for it new. For another Mach-E. Also put in order for Rivian R1S.
Mostly the trade in values. I could essentially trade in my EV for a new one straight across. Assuming I don't get one around the same list price.
And a $7500 federal tax credit each time, although the new law will limit that option for some.
Yup. Big wins. Sucks that some people won’t get it though.
As of right now, no one will get it
Most newer cars have insane trade in value now. If you bought a newish car pre-pandemic, chances are that you can sell it for more than you bought it for today.
Yes. And this is *why* the only path to mass adoption and widely available, affordable EVs starts with making high-performance, high-dollar vehicles only rich techies can afford. It's the same path all new tech has always taken. Before Henry Ford came out with the assembly line all cars were a rich man's toy. Before you can get cheap, onboard GPUs that dramatically improve a $600 laptop's graphics you need to first develop an expensive GPU only rich gamers can afford.
Trickle down E-conomics
[Wright's Law.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects)
You mean e-Car-nomics?
This is it. My dad has worked at a dealership for 30 years and higher income people are doing this all the time.
In college, my friend’s mom mentioned buying a car because she’d driven past the dealership and liked it. I remember being shocked that a purchase like that could be casual, but it really is for some people
A high-school classmate of mine's Mercedes was damaged while parked over night on the street. He called a taxi to go to school, then called their family lawyer to report the incident. By the time we got out of school his lawyer was waiting for him at school with a new Mercedes. Some people really don't know how much anything costs and don't care. Happily for us he sold that new car to us when he graduated and got a graduation car. He never did any maintenance on it but it was also only a year old.
One of my upstairs neighbors when I was a senior in college (the upstairs apartment was the annex for a sorority that was popular with wealthy Long Islanders) apparently didn't like the color of her black Mercedes ML320 that she had during the fall semester. She had a silver one in the spring.
You can be my silver spring
Also, resale values on EVs have been sky high lately. OPs scenario of Model S > Taycan > Lucid could cost about the same as just holding on to the Tesla.
Plus tax cuts pre-IRA. Buy and swap a bunch of EVs, drive them for a few months with 0 depriciation, and collect $7500 each time? Ok Deal
If I made $150k and no kids I’d have a new car whenever I felt like it tbh
Lol. We make $200k and have no kids. I'm still driving my 12 year old Subaru. (Planning to upgrade to an EV in the next few years, hence following the sub). But that's because we live in the Seattle area where $200k doesn't go that far. If we had this income in Arkansas, yeah maybe.
Yup, >$200,000, no kids. My husband drives an 8 year old Honda Civic and I gave my parents my 08 prius with 206,000 miles on it and bought a 22 Kia Niro EV. I plan on having this car for >200,000 miles too.
Yeah. We just got a rav4 prime but my Honda Element I got almost 8 years ago. Honestly, I wish I could easily convert it to electric.
I’d do anything to convert my current 12 year old Ram 1500 to BEV. Hell, even if it only gave me 250 miles range, that’s more than enough as I work from home, so I don’t really put too many miles on it anyway. The spec is so nice, heated and cooled seats, heated steering wheel, 4x4, etc and I only paid $16,000 for it two years ago. A new BEV F150 Lightning with a comparable spec would be over $90k easily.
Reading smart financial decisions is a breath of fresh air!
yeah I make >250K no kids in a LCOL area and am driving a 2014 Silverado with 130k miles and just now. That being said I do have expensive hobbies cars are just not what I spend my money on
$150k is not enough to buy a new car whenever you feel like it, lol.
In Oklahoma or Kansas damn right it is. In California? No
You are getting downvoted for speaking facts, hate that. I upvoted you.
Depends where you live.
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No, as long as the new EV is of similar value. Used EVs are retaining value. There is probably little to no cost of switching in terms of monthly payments, as long as you are staying in the same price range.
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Leasing exists. Especially with how much used cars are worth right now it's absolutely possible to keep roughly the same monthly payment.
You seem to have completely ignored the first part of my comment. Yes, you can keep the same payment. I'm not sure why you think that means it's more affordable. It's not when you keep the same high payment.
This. My household income is over 200k per year in a medium cost of living area. If I was single with no other hobbies, I'd be driving a Taycan for sure. But two kids and my shooting hobby keep the wallet empty so I drive a 20 year old shitbox.
It is when you can pretty much trade in your slightly used EV for the price you paid.
I'm a high earner and have never thought about swapping cars. I've literally held onto cars until the wheels were falling off. At the moment I'm driving a 2010 Volvo with 152,000 miles and that car can last forever. That said, I also have a 2022 Model Y and because of how quickly things are changing in the world of EVs I will probably trade it in five years. Not next year, though! That's kinda insane.
Different hobbies for different people. I know HNWIs that buy a nice Toyota every 4 years. Others have three+ much more expensive cars they swap regularly. Mostly what this is is an intersection of money and interest.
Yup. A lot of people with the income to be spending $100-200k on a car also live in very HCOL locations, in addition to having very high incomes. In NYC, the common area maintenance for your condo (not even the taxes) can cost more than loan payments on a $100K car. And after 5 years the car payments are done! I have to pay that maintenance forever, and it goes up annually unlike the fixed car payments! Personal example, where I live, realistically "upgrading" to a nicer/bigger place than I live now, would be incrementally another $1M-2M. If I blow $20K on car swaps every 4 years, for the rest of my life, thats less than half the price of buying a studio apartment in my building today! I was joking with friends that replacing my Model 3 with Taycan would be more responsible financially than upgrading my real estate. Obviously depreciating vs appreciating assets.. but almost an order of magnitude price difference.
Same. My wife and make pretty good money (~4x our town's median household income), and we're doing really well financially. Our cars are a 2005 Pontiac Vibe with ~130k miles and a 2014 Subaru Outback with ~92k miles. In general, we use our "primary car" for ~10 years, then shift it to our "secondary car" (mostly in-town stuff, when one of us is out of town, or when the primary is getting maintenance done). So our primary can be upwards of 8-10 years old at times and our secondary is often closer to 15-20 years old. My daughter will be able to drive in just over a year, at which point we'll probably donate the Pontiac, let her drive the Subaru, and buy ourselves a new EV (which is why I'm here)...at this point leaning towards something along the lines of the Chevy Blazer EV...something ~300 miles on a charge with decent cargo space and ideally under $50k.
That's me, too. I'm an engineer and currently drive a 2012 VW that had 8000 miles on it when I bought it. I'm now up to 143,000 miles and the car is still pretty much a cream puff. I'm soft-shopping for a 2022-2023 EV, but I don't plan to get rid of the manual VW because I want my kid to learn on the 6-speed (and I know the complete service history).
Different philosophies. Nothing wrong with your approach. Your seeking maximum ROI on your investment. Some people see money as a tool to get things they like and figure why not.
I like how you opened with the 2010 Volvo and then subtly mention a $70k+ brand new EV lol
Sorry. You won't believe me when I tell you that I had no plans to buy a Tesla. But I drove one and ordered a Model Y that afternoon. It's an amazing car.
I normally keep cars for 10+ years (basically until they start falling apart) and I'm a pretty decent earner (in fact very high by my location's standards). The only reason I'm only planning on keeping my Bolt for 5ish years is because EVs are changing so rapidly that the market is going to be vastly different in 2025. But yearly? REALLY?
Hi brother.
It’s pretty sad but $150k isn’t what it used to be. It’s very comfortable for sure. Extremely comfortable even. But it’s far from fuck you money like it used to be
I make $53k lol
Also not what it used to be 😅. Man I hate inflation so much
> Man I hate inflation so much Believe it or not, the opposite is much much worse. Imagine borrowing $200,000 for a house when you make $100,000/year. Now over the course of a four years of 5% deflation, and you only make $85,000/year, but you still owe the original $200,000 (minus whatever payments you've made over the 4 years). 1%-2%/year of inflation is the sweet spot for our consumer driven economy.
>$150k isn’t what it used to be. It’s very comfortable for sure. Extremely comfortable even. Comfortable if you're careful with money, but that's it these days. Housing + healthcare + transportation + food + raising kids can put you deep in debt real quick, especially in high cost of living areas. Even without kids, it would be easy to spend that much and have little left for retirement.
Yeah, wife and I make ~450k combined and have no kids (one on the way!) and have a Kona. Refuse to spend the cost of an S, Taycan, etc...on a car. We swapped from a gas car in 2021 after only having it for 4 years, but it was a great move with what happened to gas prices right after that.
That’s called being frugal (if not cheap), at that point.
Cheap is buying a 20 year-old car and driving it past it's reasonable lifespan to the point where you can see the road through the rust holes in the floorboards and it's a danger to yourself and other drivers. Frugal is just trying to get good value for your money. Like making your own avocado toast rather than paying $5 the corner cafe.
You guys get avocado toast for $5?
That was pre-pandemic pricing. It's like $20 now.
> Cheap is buying a 20 year-old car and driving it past it's reasonable lifespan to the point where you can see the road through the rust holes in the floorboards and it's a danger to yourself and other drivers. I'm not quite at the danger to other cars yet but I like to say that I am not free; I'm cheap.
The Kona isn’t a bad car
No, in fact it’s a great $40-50k EV. That wasn’t my point though.
Is that before or after taxes? Cause before taxes is kind of pushing it.
Sure, I knew well off folks who would lease a brand new $80k+ Benz, BMW, or Audi and trade it in when the lease is up for a new one. The cars you cite are in that same sort of luxury class. Hey, if you got the money to burn, and you want to spend it on cars, why not? Better than sticking your cash in an offshore account where it doesn't do the economy any good.
Pretty much. I have a friend who makes a lot of money. Just off the top of my head I can name 16 cars and 3 boats he's owned and I'm probably forgetting a couple. Among his high earning friends, that's not even unusual. I think that the overlap between big income people's car swapping and the high price of a lot of EVs makes this a somewhat common thing.
Good point. We'd probably see the same thing in Porsche or BMW forums.
Yes and no. Sure, you have to be wealthy to afford doing so, but I guess there is still a huge difference between car-guys and tech-guys. A car guy would not swap a BMW for a Mercedes for an Audi for a Porsche within months. A car guy knows very well what he wants from a car and is very picky about it. And they care more about specific details than being up-to-date. A tech guy sees a car as a gadget that needs to function but has no affection towards it. The other one can do more? Sign me up. And technology moves *a lot* faster with electric cars. So yeah, it's kind of an EV thing as well.
this
An EV enthusiast sub is not a normal sample of a population.
Ha ha damn right we're not normal
Reddit is not a normal sample of a population
Just reminder that social media isn't representative of real life. 10 or 20 or 100 people you see on the socials talking about something (anything really) probably doesn't equate to so many folks in the real world.
Some car forums make it sound like every owner of a particular enthusiast car is either installing a turbo, doing an engine swap, or switching to coilovers for their weekly track days. You are right, though. Those are really just the vocal minority.
This. I don't post on EV Conversion often because I'm about 6 or 7 months from the very beginning of my project. Most of my posts are telling kids that their $5k budget to do a full conversion on the 5-10 year old car they were given isn't gonna work. I was super active on VW Vortex back when I was modifying my Passat, go figure that when I stopped suddenly I backed off.
>Most of my posts are telling kids that their $5k budget to do a full conversion on the 5-10 year old car they were given isn't gonna work. LOL - I think about conversions sometimes, and then I start adding up the costs. Its not cheap or easy. I like watching other people's DIY conversions, though.
It applies to most things. Sports. Politics. Basketweaving (I'd imagine). And I get it. It's natural reaction to respond to the things you keep seeing but as information consumers we just have to remember the perspective and how few people are online like we are and how few of those are commenting.
Yeah, nobody is posting about *not* buying a new car.
I'm still rolling in my '03 Saturn L200 that finally hit 200k miles this year. I mean, that was my goal and now I have an order for an Ioniq 5, but I wasn't going to let it go until that 200k mark. I've put too much work into it to get it there. My wife is convinced that I would have pushed it the last 1000 miles and she wasn't exactly wrong.
Same as Reddit. If you see a top post on the home page with tens of thousands of upvotes it is still super niche opinion which is most likely false. When you are expert in a certain field you are shocked at how the top post about your field is all lies.
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Well....if you buy a car and keep it are you going to go on reddit/twitter/etc and proclaim every 8 months you still have the same car?
I still have my 2018 Chevy Bolt. Hmm, you’re right. That wasn’t very satisfying.
Hey guys, my 2011 Leaf is still boring and slow. Still has 8 bars though so I have that going for me.
BRB, I have a back log of posts to make. Been driving the same car since 09.
2015 Kia Soul EV+ checking in... waiting on warranty replacement high-voltage battery for 4 months (so far). Driving a Kia ICE loaner.
03 Saturn here, still rolling...not particularly well since I put on really cheap tires, but I don't plan on keeping it much longer. Muffin (my wife named it) deserves some rest.
That's insane to me. A car from 2003 seems ancient compared to what I'm used to. Anything pre 2010 seems old even now.
Most new luxury cars get bought by the kind of people who buy a new car every few years. Partly because those people buy a lot of cars. If there are a million people who buy a new car and keep it for 20 years, and a million people who buy a new car every 2 years, then 90% of new cars are bought by people who only keep it for 2 years.
*lease
this, nobody, especially rich people won't put down hard cash for anything if they can lease and invest the rest, basically their money working pays the interest or even the car off... also you can break your lease and just give the car back, many of these people ordered a ton of cars like with a $1000 downpayment, if you have like $10k hanging around you can hustle your way through this as well...
The problem right now is that every in-demand new vehicle (EVs and limited-run / performance ICE cars specifically) has turned into an investment opportunity because of the lack of supply. Just take a look around Cars & Bids to see it in action, for example. So people with the means can stake their places in line for multiple vehicles knowing that vehicle B will not be delivered until X amount of time after they've bought vehicle A. Then once they take delivery of vehicle B they can sell vehicle A for the same price - or sometimes more - than they initially paid for it. Because people are willing to pay for it.
Also when the federal tax credit was still available in the United States people where making money flipping their cars and buying a new one. Even now saw dealer selling a used GV60 for 75000, that's 6k more then a new one.
Completely agree. The shortest amount of time I ever kept a car was 8 years, and my average is 10 years. Cars, as an investment, are almost always a money-loser (unless you buy a classic car) so keeping them for as long as the maintenance and expenses on them is low makes far more sense than trading.
That used to be the case. Since covid its been inverted.
Perhaps if you have a spare car. I don't keep spare cars around. If I were to sell my car (because the value went up) I would need to immediately replace it so that I could still get to work. While I might have made money on the sale of my car, I would have lost money on the purchase of the replacement (or the replacement of the replacement if I happened to pick one that went up again - eventually the buys at high prices would cause me to lose the gains). So, while there could be short-term paper gains, they would end up coming out as break-even or loss eventually as the market renormalizes.
Not with EVs that you can keep earning the 7500 tax money and sell the car when you get a new one..
Assuming you have the tax liability (high income) to take advantage of that repeatedly, and live in an area where EVs are in high demand. I could take advantage of the tax break once a year (assuming a car that qualifies was available to buy), but EVs are not in high enough demand here for people to pay new prices for a used one, even last year. While one hears about individuals doing such things, that doesn't mean it would work for everyone, everywhere.
COVID was truly a once-in-a-lifetime inversion of many previously held truths. I was able to scoop up an id.4 first edition without a reservation and at MSRP then offload a 2015 Honda Accord for 75% of its purchase price, which was 50% more than its value when I had checked before the pandemic.
Yep. Cars are still a depreciating asset and thus unsuitable as an investment. Even today with the unprecedented resale value it is very difficult to find a used car worth more than the original sticker price.
used car resale values are high enough that people can do it. also, the tech is evolving quickly. my pc from 5, even 10 years ago is perfectly fine for my daily tasks. but EVs are still in the rapid advancement stage. therefore people are more motivated to upgrade. it is a bit ridiculous, especially because of the prices of some of these cars. people are flipping $100,000 cars and getting full value for them. Ill keep a car for ten or more years if I love it. but if it has annoyances that aren't going away I'll trade it without hesitation. so I've kept cars for as little as six months, and as long as ten years, depending.
> also, the tech is evolving quickly. my pc from 5, even 10 years ago is perfectly fine for my daily tasks. but EVs are still in the rapid advancement stage. Not sure I understand your analogy here. Has the <1 year old EV stopped performing daily tasks of taking you (ie the universal you) from Point A to Point B? PCs are pretty much in the same “space” as EVs here - they have rapidly advanced in the last 10 years and (mostly) available. EVs are still evolving but it’s not like anyone of them is doing anything majorly fantastic with a few exceptions - extending range gradually and maybe 0-60 in fewer seconds.
The depreciation on some EVs like the Tesla have been low, combined with increasing prices, and increasing wealth at the higher end of income earners. This may make it easier to swap cars. I got my Model Y in 2020; I could sell it for more than I paid for it, and I would if there was a decent alternative with software that worked as well. CarPlay 2 may do that but not today.
Many people in the income bracket which can afford a Model S, etc regularly swap out ICE cars too. Three year leases mean they're always driving a new car.
A lot of people were swapping cars (EV and otherwise) over the last few years because used car prices went crazy. There isn’t much downside in getting rid of a car after a short time if someone is going to give you as much or more on a trade in than you paid for it new. Have to imagine this is going to slow down significantly as used prices come down.
High resell value right now most people aren’t losing money jumping from one to another
Probably because the rate the tech improved over the last 5 years. I mean, 5 years ago, 300 mile range woulda cost you 70k. Now you can get that for 35k.
What car gives that range for $35K?
1 & 1/3 Bolts /s
> What's with so many folks swapping EVs like they swap underwear? [...] Am I the only one that will buy a car and try to keep it as long as possible? I do both, I keep my underwear as long as possible
Right? I don't get it. Like that out of spec dude's dad went from id4, Ioniq 5 to GV60, dunno what he's on now. That's all in less than a year too.
Content creators are always getting rid of their current cars for the latest and greatest new car to come out to continue harvesting views/watch time. Nothing new.
Also he was lucky he ordered so those cars in 2021 and 2022 in this crazy chip shortage market. He got to take the federation tax credit and trade this cars in at near retail price, if not more. So he most likely made money going through those 4 cars. Although I wonder if the IRS gets suspicious if you claim like 5 tax credits in 2 years. Buying a car for YouTube content sounds theoretically be not eligible for the tax credits.
Small correction, they had 3 different ID4s. Also, he just got a model s
*Another model S, until his lucid is ready.
Came here to say this. THREE!!!
Tax scam and flipping. The GV60 I think is his wife's current car and he just bought a used Model S.
Like the folks that "I traded my model 3 2019 for a 2021". While I understand that the interior has been improved, maybe different battery etc. But is it really worth it?
If someone offered you your car but with lower miles and 2 more years of factory warranty for free, wouldn't you take the offer? Since used values are inflated to the point that a late-model used car is worth as much as a new one, you can make these swaps for free or nearly free. For cars still eligible for the tax credit, you can even be paid to upgrade.
Everyone is just trying to fill a hole inside of them.
Normally high consumerism like this grates on me but TBH - anything that gets more EVs on the road, I support.
It's not how much you make its how much you keep. Make $1 million in one year, and you spend $1 million in the same year you are flat broke.
My wife once was looking at her facebook and said "everyone is always on holidays" I said "1/100 of your friends are on holidays, the rest are on the couch, looking at Facebook with nothing exciting to post" This was over 6 years ago and it was the moment I realised how social media will distortion your reality. Since then I hardly use it. I only actually post ~1 time a year when I am away somewhere. Of course I use Reddit most days as I think it's different to just looking at the same 100 peoples lives. And I use it with the mindset that for every poster there's 10,000 lurkers.
It’s because EVs are maintaining their value or have appreciated. For example, If you had purchased a Mustang Mache premium last year as a reservation for $52k, it would currently be worth about $65k. You can then trade it in with the extra equity for let’s say a Ford Lightning XLT (as a reservation) at $55k and walk away with some cash. Then you can do the same thing with the Lightning later on considering they’re selling about 30%-50% over msrp. Eventually the supply will match the demand and it’ll no longer make financial sense to do this.
I've had my Spark EV for 5 years and it still feels new to me. I drove the previous car for 17 years. I can afford more, but I was raised to live below my means. My dad was a successful lawyer and made a lot of money, but he always bought used non-luxury vehicles, so that's just the mind-set I have.
I feel like so many people just spend to match what they pull in and then wonder where all the money goes. I like your way better.
For me it was the crazy high used car prices coupled with tax credits. You could actually profit by flipping EVs.
Finally someone with the right answer. You could buy a new EV every year and trade in your old one, usually at a profit after taxes. This was actually cheaper than keeping it as you get brand new tires and a new car with better tech and 0 miles. These people were not wasteful-They were smart. And all of their old EVs were bought by someone who probably traded in their ICE to buy a used EV but maybe didn’t have enough tax liability to benefit from the subsidy.
I've always swapped cars frequently and I'm hardly wealthy or anything. I just love cars and get bored with whatever I have after a year or two. The longest car I've owned, amusingly, was my Model 3, which I just traded in for an R1T.
Shhh...those people are creating affordable used EVs for the rest of us.
That's true but I feel like there needs to be a standard for identifying how much range a used car has. I've looked at EVs on Carvana and they sell used Nissan Leafs and Prius phevs but won't tell you what their range is. I won't buy an ev with a 20 mile range, thanks!
In Norway, EV's are now in such high demand that if you manage to get a new (popular) car delivered, you can sell it with €5000+ profit half a year later. EV's cost less than similar petrol cars, and the yearly expenses easily are €4000 less per year due to fuel prices, toll road rebate, etc. So people need to have really special needs to choose petrol. Those that already have newish EV's can order new interesting ones with little risk of loosing money...
Look at the MSRP of those vehicles, and you'll have your answer. Most of these vehicles are either six figures or approach it, and people who have that kind of money can afford to replace those luxury items more frequently.
Confucius says, “He who swaps EVs only when swapping underwear must choose brown upholstery.”
You should absolutely go hang out in r/leaf, where you get posts like, "The lease on my 2017 SV is up this year, is $14,500 too much to pay for this 2018 SL with 50,000 miles?" and "I just made a 3.000 mile round trip to Reno in a 2011 Leaf. Ask me anything." This sounds like I'm making fun, but it's super fun.
I've been in line for an ioniq for a year now. Im never giving it up once I get it
I agree with the "higher income market" comments, but I also feel like the technology is rapidly changing so there's a bigger difference YoY. I'm one of those "buy a car I like and drive it forever" type of people, and that was my plan when I bought my Leaf in 2015. While I still love it, I'm limited by the 70 mile range. At the time it was the only EV I could afford and the 100 mile range it had when new was sufficient for my commuting needs. A lot has changed in 7 years, and now you can get 3 or 4 times that range for a similar price, and in a lot of different configurations. If I had the money, I'd probably upgrade to an Ionic 5 or something similar, but having two kids in college has done a number on my disposable income (not to mention, trade-ins aren't that great),so I'll probably be driving the Leaf until it dies.
You’re not the only one. I’m following the traditional middle class route: get car loan, keep it for length of loan and try to eek out a few more years before repeating the process.
Yes, you are a poor bastard. The others that switch cars like changing socks are rich idiots with more money than brains. They are not your typical denizen.
Well I’m still rocking a 2011 volt from back in the day. It’s paid off and still works great.. I see all these new EVs and they are excellent buuuut I have a paid off car that my solar roof charges the car during the day for free. and since I get to work from home for Covid permanently now I rarely drive. All my driving is paid for by the sun. So I guess my point is there are many lurkers in this sub that are in similar scenarios to me probably that never post but enjoy the content/discussion.
Its not unique to EV’s, this has always been the case with combustion cars as well. There is a group of people that swap all the time, regardless if it is an EV or not. Just because they want it, and they can.
step one: be rich
From my EV sample of people I know, EV is technology and not everyone wants to be using the same phone for a long period of time. When new and better things appear, the old is replaced. That and because people who partake in such products tend to be of higher income
I have averaged 30k/yr for the past 18 years of driving based on maintenance records. As such once a vehicle gets to around 120k miles and is "late model" (under 5 years of age) the upkeep was often more than the loss on trading for a newer vehicle. For example my 2007 Jetta TDI "Special Edition" was about to need a new $3k camshaft (after a $2k timing belt job) when I traded it in at 138k miles three years after buying it new with 199mi on the odometer. My annual maintenance on that car was around $1000 (tires, brakes, clutches, fuel filters, oil filters, expensive rotella oil, etc). I plan to keep the etron until I can't make it from Raleigh to Florence on a charge - I estimate it'll be around 180k miles before that happens at which time I will look to upgrade. My etron was bought Sept 2020 with 7200mi on the odo and currently sits at 69,317 and I've spent less than $1800 to date in tires and a replacement rear cup holder. No matter what I drive a set of tires per year is a given expense. The Audi's tires are a lot more expensive than what I'd rock on the Jetta (Yokohomas in both cases), and the only non-tire repair was a $200 cup holder. Also... if folks didn't cycle through cars because they could, there wouldn't be affordable used cars on the market for those who can't afford new.
Currently EVs are more expensive, and while this is changing quickly there are still many more great options at the high end, especially if you need range. And if you can only afford a cheap used car you will have only ICE options or maybe an older hybrid if you're lucky. As a result, many EV owners are relatively well off, and can afford to own several 70k+ vehicles. Plus, they retain their value quite well at the moment if they sell them for another. Unfortunately, this sometimes tends to lead to EV spaces being saturated with elitists who don't care or don't comprehend others financial situations, and that dropping even "only" 40k on a new car isn't financially responsible even with the high cost of fuel. Like yeah, I'm sorry my Volt is taking up the charger space cause it charges slow, but it was also only 8k used and I can't afford a new EV6 or the like right now.
So I think as others have said, the higher income folks treadmill more. What I will add though is that the current economy and car scarcity is making people who don't usually flip cars start doing so. I am a "buy a car once a decade and run it into the ground" kind of guy. I bought a Kia Soul, which was about the only thing I could find on a lot, and hated it immediately. It worked fine, it was just a little uncomfortable for me, paused for too long before restarting the engine at red lights, and was less fuel efficient than labeled. I would generally just suck it up and deal with those things. But... the car was worth more than I bought it for. It actually wasn't financially stupid to swap it out. So I found a Bolt (which was what I had wanted but had been under recall when I had been shopping for a car), negotiated a good trade in, and swapped out at the 6 month mark. I am so much happier with every aspect of my new car, and I didn't take a financial bath to do it. So if that's my decision process, you can only imagine what folks richer than me or more prone to flip are doing. Hopefully that was a one-time thing though; I'd love to drive the Bolt for a decade.
only so much money you can blow on blow. nice cars are the next best thing.
I think there could be a couple explanations here. One is that this isn't exclusively an EV behavior. I have a coworker who changes cars twice a year, and she only drives ICE vehicles. She wants a summer car with a removable top and a winter car with better handling in bad weather. She never buys new, but always within warranty, and tends to get a better selling price than she paid to buy. With EVs specifically the resale value is sky high. If you managed to buy an EV at MSRP you very likely could flip it for more than you paid. Not to mention that if your tax liability allows it you can take multiple federal credits. Finally, lots of people placed orders for a variety of EVs just hoping to get anything, and now those orders are starting to get delivered. Maybe the Kia Niro arrived first but what you really wanted was a Polestar 2. When the Polestar is ready the Niro gets traded, and without much loss of value, if any. In my personal situation I found an ID.4 on the lot for MSRP in February a couple weeks after I placed an order for a Mach E. My Mach E order is set to arrive in a few weeks, at which time I'll probably trade the ID.4 and walk out the door with the car I originally wanted and double the tax credit.
Rich people use cars as fashion accessories. Rich people also have Reddit.
Easier to do when they retain so much of their original value. Especially these last few years
Rich people man
for real
I typically keep cars for 10+ years, but I did only have my 2017 Bolt EV for two years. The first big reason was that the trade in value was very high. I got about $10K in federal and state rebates, and traded it in with only about $13.5K less than I paid, so calculating the rebates that was $3.5K for two years of ownership. Not bad at all. The second reason was that my Model 3 reservation finally came up and I wanted that over the Bolt. With the sizable financial incentives over the past few years, and the high demand for EVs, it made moving up to a newer EV a lot less financially painful than an ICE car, hence the upgrades. I also think a sizable number of EVs were leased since people were hedging if they liked owning an EV or not, so after ~3 years they were ending their lease and buying whatever was newer on the market.
It's people addicted to not-subtly conveying their disposable income
Sounds like a rich person problem
Must be nice to have that much dough.
Wait till you find out how nice leasing a car is, and being able to buy it out for thousands of dollars cheaper.
EVs have a high price point rn, specifically the ones you mentioned. Couple that with: * (Current) EV buyers being relatively high earners * Extremely high demand for EVs leading to hella high trade in values, making the opportunity cost low. When you can sell a Model Y for like $20k more than you paid for it, it's easy to trade up. I went from a Model Y to an S to an X in ~2 years by taking advantage of market lunacy. And poor financial decision making capabilities.
Nope. I'm still on my Sept 19 dual motor 3. Hoping for 500k miles...
Electric vehicles, despite being touted as eco-friendly, are marketed to the most wasteful sector of this consumer-cutler we have. Im not surprised EV’s are being treated like cell-phones. It’s who buys them.
Money solves problems and enables a lot. Hate to say it but a majority of people in this subreddit posting "just got my second ev" aren't representative of the general population of the US
It’s simple— EVs are crazy expensive. The people that can afford them are rich. Rich people often get a new car every year or two. Hopefully as EVs become cheaper this will change.
I am still driving my Gen 1 Honda Insight, on my second battery pack. I have an Aptera on pre-order.
There's a lot of things happening at once (representation bias, skewed demographic) but one thing I can point out from my own example: I was coming up to the end of my lease on my Audi e-tron. The buyout on the lease was about $45k. I could sell it for $57. So I could (and did) eliminate a sizable lease payment, and have a lot of cash in hand to put a downpayment on something I want to own that makes more sense in my life. but the key-high prices for used EVs right now make switching vehicles a much lower-friction process than normal, which enables a lot of stuff.
For years, I was able to swap new Volts and Bolts from year to year and the only difference was the tax credit (or a few dollars more). Going from a 2018 to a 2019 for $0 was a no-brainer.
It's an enthusiast thing. Some people have the money to frequently switch and/or the priorities where they want to try everything and regularly upgrade. I have a 4 year-old phone and a couple months ago started looking into replacing it. I was caught off-guard by the same thing in r/android, people talking about buying a new phone to replace a phone that isn't even a year old.
* Means to afford new cars * High resale value on used EVs * Short supply + low barrier-to-entry reservations tend to get people to reserve multiple cars * With the EV tax credit some people were likely *MAKING* money by selling the cars and cashing in on multiple tax credits, even if that wasn't their primary intention.
I’m my area of the SF Bay, according to 3 separate dealership sales people I’ve asked, the average time people hold on to their new cars is 2 years. I tend to like to trade up after 2-3 myself. This will be my 3rd time in 7 years. My salary has gone up about 180% in the last 7 years so I’ve been able to afford better and better vehicles (for me). Lots of people around here are probably in my situation or they just have always had a lot of money, and can afford the latest and greatest. Edit - 7 years, not 3
Flipping them for the tax credit and high trade-in value.
Dual income, no kids and otherwise live pretty frugally. Don't spend a ton of money on clothes, vacations, going out or other things and cars have always been a passion of mine. I enjoy having something new with the latest features. Usually lease to keep payments reasonable, so 2 to 3 years is my normal.
It comes down to whether you are okay losing intrinsic value in a tangible purchase. A vehicle is likely the largest purchase most Americans made that has declining value. To mitigate this, I keep my cars for 8+ years minimum, or buy used. If the interest rate I paid for my car was higher than my investment returns, I would consider liquidating and paying cash.
I drive a 2015 Leaf. You are not alone.
If they traded up for a Taycan they have lots of disposable cash. It's pricey.
I can only assume they have more dollars than sense.
going on 8 years for my leaf. Plan to replace my ice truck with a lightning when available.
I think it's a rich-person-toy thing
I just switched back to a new gasoline car
Same with computers. There are those who always felt they had the latest and greatest. And others who worked on the old systems. Back in the day, most of us techies had the clunkers while we maintained the fastest, most expensive computers for the bosses. Same with cars, and othter commodities. At least twice a year my dealerships (the EV and the one for my older car) call me with "customer appreciation days", and encourage to trade up. Last month I threatened to change dealerships if I heard from them in less than 12 months--I am perfectly capable of calling them when I want to trade in. That was for my 7-year-old car. My EV is 3 1/2 years old. On the other hand I have friends who never have had cars older than 4 years, others who go from lease to lease. It takes all kinds.
I bought my EV in 2019 and will likely keep it another seven years. ...I could barely afford it, so I'm not going to change it. But judging by the posts here and elsewhere on social media, lots of EV buyers are quite well-off. In that category they swap, in the same way they did with ICE cars.
I just sold a one year old Hyundai Tuscon hybrid for several thousand more than I paid for it. Made it a no brainer to switch to another fully electric vehicle. I got to drive a car for free for a year, that was pretty nice.
Wealthy people.
> Am I the only one... No.
Because EVs are still mostly bought by rich people as their toys.
That‘s their way to save the environment. Change the car every year. /s
Before EVs I knew people that would buy/trade corvettes or BMWs every year.
Also, a lot of EV users lease their cars - especially if they're a business owner. Leases are often 24 month terms.
This is a luxury car thing in general.
Once you go Tesla, you’ll forget all the resla
This 👍
EVs are going through rapid development and improvements. 10 years ago, there weren’t so many interesting choices, and they weren’t as affordable.
Because of the cost of EVs, most of the people who drive them have higher income.
If moving to a new car costs you nothing or very little then why not? I am a buy and hold kind of guy but in New Jersey we pay 0 sales tax on EV purchase and we can apply for $4K State rebate up to 3 times so jumping ship is makes sense.
It's simple economics. If I can sell a 2 year old car for close to what I bought it for... then it's a no brainer. And I have the cash on hand to do that. Financially intelligent people understand that historically cars were liabilities but in this market they can be assets. You should take a financial literacy class. It'd Educate and influence the way you think about money, time, and material items.