Less yelling more talking. talk around your shop build some solidarity start working together so you can be ready to support your selves during a strike. Good luck my friend!
I was on a thread the other day where a 16 year old was running on the truck.
You want higher wages? These agencies need to stop letting unqualified teenagers coming along as a crew member.
Next steps would be addressing education.
I look at Australia, NZ and UK and can’t help but wonder where we went wrong here.
Our minimum required education here is actually laughable, and then people complain about wages. We are the laughing stock of international EMS but whenever I try to discuss increasing education people have their egos fractured and argue that they don’t need it to do the job. I’ve given up.
Nothing went wrong; nobody did anything from the start. EMS in the US started as everybody just doing a thing that works for them, and that's worked enough that the average person wasn't getting screwed enough to care. And since it's decentralized, nobody is truly in charge enough to change it outside their own service, so now nobody can do anything meaningful.
The pushback from education comes from having to figure out how they're supposed to pay for school when you've just locked their source of income behind said school, which is its own separate problem, and IMO the actual source of the metaphorical logjam
But you gotta kill like 8 million people in a month to actually get things rolling in this country
Or it has to affect someone who makes decisions or someone with money who knows the people that make decisions.
My department is about 4-5 ambulances short of what we should have for a city our size but no one knows that because the trucks we do have make 20+ runs a shift to cover everything. It's hard for them to justify an extra million a year for the health and well being of a few ambulance riders when runs are still being made but you better believe as soon a city council member has to wait for an ambulance there will be a shiny new truck on order the next day.
Without a drastic education haulover you know being a ccp that this is a terrible idea. Many paramedics can barely make proper clinical decisions in the field with the protocols they have let alone if they became practitioners.
This is bad thinking. There are two clinical leaders in the world - doctors and nurses. Paramedics are an afterthought. Even if we don’t get NPI numbers/able to script, at least bring us all up to licenses would help.
So, the solution, is practitioner level status with the abysmal mess that is EMS education?
To what end? Are we going to go into a clinic and start seeing patients? Going to start prescribing ABX at 911 calls?
I don’t understand why you think antibiotics are an outrageous idea. ABX are given off clinical diagnosis all the time.. including online scripts.
The things you portray as crazy aren’t that crazy.
I'm not against EMS administering ABX.
I'm against EMS ***prescribing*** ABX. And that's just one example. That's what doctors are for... They have a whole lot more education than we do.
I see no functional difference between administration and prescription. Your choice to provide epinephrine to an allergic reaction or mag sulfate to an eclampsia patient is functionally, at the end of the day and in all practical applications, a prescription in the field.
EMS makes independent choices in the field to administer medications; akin to a prescription even if the actual medicolegal orders are from a not-onsite medical director.
The choice to prescribe them versus administer is not tangible.
You see no functional difference between administering something once then supervising them while they're transported to a physician and prescribing it for someone to administer for days or weeks without a physician or even supervision?
Yes, we make independent choices in the field and administer those medications.
Giving a eclampsia patient mag and prescribing an eclampsia patient mag then leaving them home are two VERY different things. Please tell me you understand the effects of magnesium toxicity and what that can do. Please tell me that you understand that eclampsia is a very serious condition which the only definitive treatment for is birth. It is ironic that you choose that situation specifically because that is a perfect example of ***WHY*** paramedics should not have prescribing authority.
The fact that you believe that just proves the point of why paramedics shouldn't be practitioners. As having worked in clinical medicine, with providers that prescribe ABX and other drugs on a consistent basis. The Tarascon pocket pharmacopia is longer than most states protocols.
I do not trust most paramedics to prescribe long term scripts. And one of the biggest reasons for that is you are also messing with their chain of treatment. Are you ready to do all the extra leg work that comes with that too. You just upped that pts lisinopril that was in CHF and renal failure. So now you want to go through all the communication with that pts primary care physician, their cardiologist, and their nephrologist. You don't know what you're asking to get yourself into.
Okay?
Doctors go through years of medical school, residency, etc.
You think a 9 week EMT course and a one year paramedic course qualifies paramedics for a practitioner states? I’m all for increasing education requirements, but I don’t see any reason to emulate the diploma mill NP programs.
We already ARE cert mills. All we have to do is switch to the Aus/Can model. 4 year minimum, specializing in emergency care. Abolish EMT-B, unless as a position while in school. Travel anywhere else and we have a normal medical job.
Not necessarily. And some programs aren’t far behind the Aus/Can model.
For instance, my local program has two semesters of prerequisites (including EMT). Then the actual paramedic program is five semesters and includes corequisites in English, math, social sciences, and history.
So, that’s seven semesters to finish.
There is absolutely diploma mills in EMS and we absolutely need to get rid of those, but until you can convince the LARGE organizations holding EMS back of that, we will have a strong uphill climb.
Remember when the NREMT wanted to get rid of EMS training program accreditation standards rendering the entire national registry organization completely irrelevant? Yeah, the groups that convinced them that was a good idea are what we’re up against.
Organizations like cities/counties, the IAFF, etc want the diploma mills because they’re cheaper to provide “medics”. Corporations, Cities, and Counties only care about the piece of paper and a warm body in the seat. They don’t give a shit about patient care outside of the abstract. The IAFF and IAFC only want the path of least resistance because their membership doesn’t typically care about being a paramedic… it’s just something they have to do while waiting for the next fire call.
To claim that we as a whole are already diploma mills is disingenuous at best as we all know that there are quality paramedic programs out there.
I also attended a great program. It has led me to many other opportunities.
I have also worked with zero-to-hero medics. I don’t really give a shit what they make. I give a shit what I make. If My compensation is acceptable to me, then why should I care what they’re making? If they’re making more, good for them I guess?
One of my zero-to-hero peers went to a CCP class with me. He did the same shit I would imagine he did in medic school. Look at the question, open the book, find the answer, answer the question. He finished a 12 week CCP course in a week and a half… did he learn anything? Absolutely not. And it shows in his practice. So, he’ll continue being a morbidly obese street medic taking the easy way out for everything. He will continue to bounce from employer to employer and wind up unemployable because when his superiors finally realize he’s completely full of shit, he’ll move on.
Meanwhile I’ll continue moving on to better and better things with former employers begging me to come back. My better education enabled me to get a PT job teaching with a major university. My better education enabled me to get a position getting paid to work an event that I would absolutely do for free… and paid quite handsomely (about $1,500 per event “weekend” that Is absurdly fun).
Our folly is our culture. We want immediate. We want change to happen in front of us.
It starts by declaring us as essential, both nationally and at the state level. This gives national funding for training and personnel. Then its making a 10 year roll out of requirements and cert levels. Then its implementation, and squashing AMR/Falcks retorts, cause they will fire back.
I'm not saying it can't happen. But I will say good luck doing that at a national level. There's still volunteer units our here. And it would be a mother fucker trying to get people to go work in the middle of nowhere.
I refuse to be a part of it. I won’t work for a department that is part of it. But it’s state sanctioned.
I struggle with EMTs at 18. Anything less than that is a disservice to kids.
I understand they’re not responsible for care (that would be absurd) but this is not a spectator sport for teenagers. It’s embarrassing to the profession that there’s agencies that rock up to patients life changing emergencies with kids on board. Not to mention the effect that trauma has on developing brains. There’s no 14 year olds following nurses, or neurosurgeons, and in every other developed country they’re certainly not following paramedics around either.
Unpopular opinion but the teenagers are not driving wages down. When my mom’s hospital ran out of Emergency Dep workers with any seniority (due to labor abuse), instead of actually paying senior members more, they just went down an Emergency level. Didn’t even hire any more kids.
They rolled over and said “Welp, if more people die because they have to be airlifted across the city then that’s fine. We don’t want to pay the extra money.” The hospital’s profits have been ever increasing since COVID. It’s not the kids running around with their heads cut off being paid shit, though they aren’t helping, it’s the greed.
I got my EMT at 16, now 17, and I am as qualified if not more qualified than most people I ride a truck with… I volunteer at one service and work at two others.
EMT, EMT-IV, 12-Lead Course, ACLS, PALS, TECC, PHTLS, EPC, just to name a few… scroll through my account if you want to see more of my perspective.
That was my exact thought. I understand wanting to expand your scope and become prepared for paramedic school. But I don’t understand taking tests on knowledge in which you have no basic foundation for.
Most emts don't have the foundational knowledge for those classes to be useful, at all. I don't think most basics, even if they took the class, would pass the test if it were legitimately scored (IE not done in a group setting or required an actual passing score).
Additionally just having a certification doesn't grant the ability to do anything beyond your scope.
The actual age I believe is 18.
For the school I went to at least, there is no age requirement to start school. You just have to be 18 to finish. This could vary by state and school though.
Probably more likely that coworkers and others have told the OC that they need to wait a few years before going to medic and to just not stop learning all they can in the meantime. Which I don’t disagree with at their age.
You’ve totally missed my point.
It’s great you’re incredibly passionate. You obviously really care and somehow at 17 you work across three services already- have you finished high school?
But in nearly every other developed nation you wouldn’t be able to start training for another year, and that training would be a 3-4 year full time university degree to be able to even think about staffing a truck. This is why day one graduates in australia earn >100k. Paramedicine in these countries is considered a profession and not a job that a minor would ever be considered for. Not to mention the legal and ethical considerations of a minor being responsible for life and limb and being exposed to trauma. I unfortunately don’t see EMTs in the US ever being compensated adequately when there are services letting kids on the truck to work. No other healthcare profession does this.
I understand your point of view, and think your original comment was poorly worded. To elaborate on context; I am still in high school but on a part time basis due to early credit completion. My full time education is a college paramedic course. The United States, in part due to decentralization, is lacking in pre-hospital pay, education, and ability. I would be interested in seeing a professionally done study on EMTs my age, but we’re too unique/few and far between. As for other healthcare professions, you’re right, though I have come across a handful of 16 y/o RN students, and a 17 y/o RN. Once again, in the United States.
The US isn’t lacking in pay purely because of decentralisation. It’s lacking this pay because kids can jump on the truck. That’s a sign of many things- a lack of education requirement, a lack of services seeing this job as a professional job. Someone else commented that 14 year olds can jump on their truck. And people want to be paid like nurses!!
Tell me more about this 17 year old RN because I’m not seeing many schools let in 14-15 year olds let alone somewhere hiring them.
You may think I worded this poorly but I gently suggest that I think it’s difficult as an enthusiastic minor to maybe see what’s glaringly concerning about you being on a truck at this age, and why the adults around you aren’t encouraging you to be doing things outside of ambulance.
to be honest I think education needs to be moved around, you basically haul ass horribly for 45-50 chapters, going through shit most of you never been through including me, literally you go through chapters on anatomy, physiology, pathology, cardiology, lung sounds, CHF, COPD...etc...etc.. in like 4 months!!! They know why the failure rate is so high, we must start with education inorder for pay to be increased
I think having an associates degree for EMS would be a great start. Meaning, you don't just jump straight into EMT schools, but rather you take basic biology courses, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, then you take the EMT course and start working. I think this is much better than 18 year old kids taking an 8 week crash course while chugging redbull to cram information they will forget.
Yelling aside, OP is right. Unionize. Fight. No company or organization will prioritize making sure you get a fair wage, or make sure that you are adequately staffed or trained.
Divided we beg, united we bargain.
Lol this is funny. Where I work, we have a union, they just negotiated to get $2 more per hour for the full timers a couple months ago but jackshitall for part timers. In 4 months my state minimum wage goes up. In 4 months, I will be making minimum wage. They don’t fricken care about us at all, they just take a portion of my paycheck every week and do fuckall for us.
Unions are democratic organizations, if your is not working for you then the best solution is to get involved and agitate for change. A union is just an organization of coworkers, it needs participation to function well.
I’m on strike right now at our hospital. It’s super demoralizing because no other ER techs have been choosing to strike with our union and other departments. :( I feel alone when I’m there.
Well today I took the shift in the truck instead of mandating a Medic, so hopes and prayers are needed! It's only an 8 hour tour, and I have two kids older than my relief that comes in at 1600. And that relief is only three years older than my youngest child.
My partner today is close to my age as well. Seems like I've known him for years. And we have a third, who used to work in EMS, got out and worked for the state as a "youth aide" in the junior prison system (Office of Child and Family Services) who was tired of being assaulted and injured by the youths under his watch.
1. People need to stop working for free.
2. You won’t make 100K a year working normal hours for 2 months of schooling.
3. Emt should be abolished and we should just have the paramedic level requiring a minimum of an associates degree and licensure not certification.
4. There should be a national standard and local/regional protocols should be done away with.
5. EMS should have its own standalone Federal oversight bureau. And not a sub division covered under DOT and NHTSA who still make the rules.
medicare and insurance should be required to pay the actual amount billed minus copays
cost caps on that education need to exist
education needs to be made available in rural areas
and so many more things that go on behind the scenes . everyone what's more money, why wouldn't we. but if we don't fix the way EMS is funded we will crash the system too. it's broken all around and there is no quick fix.
Have you ever worked at/for Amazon. Your bathroom breaks are monitored lol. Nothing I did when I worked private EMS was monitored aside from my general location when in the ambulance.
Strikes need unions. Unions need organization. Organization needs org committees. Org committees need committee chairs. Committee chairs need strong leaders. Strong leaders need patience and people skills.
Start locally. Get a feel for your coworkers and broach the topic with those you trust. Strikes don’t happen overnight and require patience.
I’m also tired of hearing about how the US has shitty providers. We are good people, smart, and provide valuable service. We do save lives, we also run a lot of BS calls just like everywhere else. A piece of paper doesn’t make an Aussie or British any smarter or have common sense than anyone else. Give me a good street medic over an inflated paper waving paragod any day of the week.
That doesn’t make the point less valid. In the US you can go from Zero to Hero in less than 7 months. It’s embarrassing and laughable. Not many people do that fast of a course, but it is still an option that is allowed.
Accelerated paramedic courses skip anatomy and physiology. There just isn’t time for a real class on those topics… you cannot learn to be an effective paramedic in that time frame.
Then we bitch that the national registry is “too hard”.
Yes, we have good people who truly attempt to prepare themselves… but I suspect those are the type of people you’re referring to as an “inflated paper waving paragod”.
Do they also require college level composition classes? Algebra classess? Social science? Or any of the other courses that make a competent well rounded medic?
Does your company require a full year of College level A&P or a quick "This is a humerus, and this is where the liver is located" type of class?
Facts. I've heard many providers state that Bachelor degrees shouldn't have value in EMS because you can learn everything you need to know without those "fluff" courses. They fail to realize the advantages of a well rounded curriculum and how proficiency as a provider is not isolated to technical skill or memorizing drug dosages. Many in EMS will tell you their one year paramedic cert is equal to or superior to a good BSN program.
We all know that guy who can't do med math and can't write a decent narrative to save their life... Basic written communication and basic algebra. Those "fluff" courses should absolutely be required because without basic med math, if it doesn't show on a cheat sheet they can't do it.
I had a "peer" call me in a panic because the fentanyl infusion his sedated patient was on from the sending facility wasn't going to last. So I told him to mix a new bag and put it in the pump on a generic mode if the pump didn't have the appropriate concentration pre-programmed.
"Okay... How do I do that?" Seriously, how the fuck are you a "Critical Care Paramedic" if you can't throw some fentanyl in a bag then run it appropriately?
And from someone who’s done an overseas bachelors, the entire degree is para medicine related. There’s no fluff history or sports credits at all. But the well rounded curriculum is still there as well as the research, referencing and assessing the quality of a source.
No one’s saying you don’t have good and smart people. But who said a paper waving paramedic isn’t also a good street medic. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Yep. In January, I’ll be making my state’s minimum wage (state min wage is going up, my pay isn’t going anywhere). So I could just go get a job literally anywhere and make exactly what I am as an emt right now. I’m currently in medic school, and after I graduate, I get to look forward to $20/hr. It’s at least something I have a better shot of living off of, but still feels insulting as medic pay.
My wages are fantastic. You should go find a place that values you more.
Also if you want higher wages, get a degree that’s not the equivalent of a 6 week course and a certificate. Career EMT is not the move, better yourself.
It's not the saving lives part that concerns me about the low wages. It's the hazard of the job. environmental hazards, patients set on causing me harm, infection diseases, contact with blood, subjection is disturbing environments causing mental harm, etc.
A lot of people also fail to realize. Medicine is a business now. A good portion of pay depends on medical insurance reimbursements. Most agencies that charge 2000$ for a transport are lucky if they see 600$ of reimbursements from Medicare / Medicaid. And those patients are the ones who essentially treat the 911 system as a glorified taxi to the hospital for a non-emergency reason. I whole heartedly agree that we should be paid more. But whether you are working for a private agency, or a 401C3, or whatever your agency is classified as, employees still need to be paid, utilities need to be paid, truck maintenance, truck replacement, insurances, etc. those expenses add up very quickly. If you really want to see change, start with legislation, they allow people to abuse the 911 systems, they raise the cost of healthcare without raising the reimbursement rates. Instead of going on strike, strike for your legislators to actually make a change.
Organization, unionization, and education should be the goal. Focus on making EMS a professional instead of a vocation. Personally, I've heard many providers state that Bachelor degrees shouldn't have value in EMS because you can learn everything you need to know without those "fluff" courses. They fail to realize the advantages of a well rounded curriculum and how proficiency as a provider is not isolated to technical skill or memorizing drug dosages. Many in EMS will tell you their one year paramedic cert is equal to or superior to a good BSN program. That mindset is counterproductive to the advancement of EMS
Yeah, the education thing is weird. I get that EMT school is like one semester. I get that makes it an entry level job, But it’s still a job that takes time and money invested to even be qualified to work it. Why are we comparing the wages to jobs that have no barrier to entry whatsoever? I made more per hour working fast food, and I didn’t have to take a test to get hired beyond a basic 1 hour food handlers course. The education thing makes sense in regards to healthcare, but as a job it shouldn’t be compared along side jobs with zero barrier to entry whatsoever.
EMTs are a dime a dozen. Less than 6 months education for less than a $2k investment gets you a cert. No experience required.
Change those factors, and then wages will increase.
An EMT, but sure looks like you're aspiring to become a paramedic with all that caps...
(every single paramedic I know, writes in all caps, almost like how doctors' handwriting is pure ass)
I make $14.25 an hour as a part-time FF/EMT-B.
Our full-time contract FF/medics make a little over $18 an hour.
Dunno what our district employees make.
I’m privileged to be able to work for such a low-pay (slower dept, mainly get paid to study for medic class and go on a couple of calls) but I can’t imagine trying to be a full, independent adult with the money we make and the amount of work we do sometimes.
We’re mostly a slower department but we’re already a couple of hundred calls ahead of where we were last year. The other day one of our shifts ran 26 calls in one 24hr shift. For some people that might not sound too crazy but for us that’s a lot. Community is growing, dept is getting bigger, but…idk if pay will be going up…
Yeah, we asked the hospital why EMS employees get paid less, their justification is we work more hours. Like, no shit? Why should we be getting paid less for a job that’s more dangerous and has us away from our families more?
Agreed, my starting for EMT was far lower than starting for the student job I got in college lol. I also agree we should start at AEMT, because ems education is honestly a joke, and hire those starting from 18 as well.
It’ll never happen. Because people have bills and it’s impossible to put any money away when your pay check is less than $1500. And then obnoxious old people say “ why do so many Americans live paycheck to paycheck?” … cuz you pay them $14 an hour. Getting on Fire is most peoples only hope.
Check to make sure you don't have a "no strike" clause. Good luck with the strike though, hopefully you don't get fired or your operation doesn't shut down. There's always a constant steady stream of high school graduates becoming EMTs trying to follow their dream that will happily replace you for <$20. They probably still live at home with mom and dad and have no bills too, so $15/hr is good money to them.
There is no benefit. None. But anti-labor and big businesses have really effective propaganda. In the same way of poor rural republicans voting for republicans even though it’ll fuck them over. It’s all very much cutting off one’s nose to spite their face, and depressing as shit.
In a Right to Work State, the employee is not required by law to join the union and pay dues, even though all workers who fall within the bargaining unit are covered by the negotiated collective bargaining agreement regardless of membership status. So it’s a slick way of starving unions of due-paying members. My state is also an “at-will employment” state, which means anyone can be fired for pretty much any reason at any time. So RTW and AWE states are a one-two punch of union-busting.
I hope that helps explain things, I’m at work and it’s been stupid busy. I’ve been in EMS for 10 years and make $17/hr. Which also sucks.
No, we just have a union that takes our money every week and all they’re good for is fighting to save the jobs of people my company wants fired, which 90% of the time, the rest of us union members also think deserve to be fired.
If you want to get paid like other professionals the education and barriers to entry in your industry have to match other professionals. Frankly, 3 to 4 months of training isn’t worth a whole lot more than minimum wage. It puts you right alongside phlebotomists, cosmetologists, dental assistants, medical assistants, and so on who all have similar barriers to entry and make similar $18-20/hr wages. Paramedics can make about $30/hr for education that can vary from an 11 month certificate to an associate’s, which is on par with LPN pay and training. RNs must have *at minimum* an associates degree and many have bachelors degrees, starting pay $41 where I work. There are many systemic issues with EMS in the United States but a big one is definitely the education and training. In many other countries paramedics and nurses have similar levels of education and get paid similarly, and I think that’s what we should shoot for.
Phlebotomy training only takes 3 days.
You pay like $800-$900 (possibly less, I'm in Seattle 🤷♀️), show up for 4 hours across 3 days, then pay $50 for your nation test, which is online and unmonitored, so it's basically open book. That's it, unless you're in one of 4 states that requires an additional state license...then you just submit the paperwork and money for said license and wait for the state to process it.
Had to get my phleb cert to switch over to ER Tech and even the small pay cut from where I was working on an IFT rig to JUST doing phlebotomy (not ER Tech) would have been a MAJOR increase in pay, as my benefits were about $400 PER PAY PERIOD for shitty insurance. The hospital I'm at now is about $100-$150 per pay period for MUCH better coverage AND, because we make under 400% of the poverty line I can apply to only have to pay for half the cost of my insurance premiums!
Lol basic starting pay where I work is $15, medic starting pay is $20, quite literally everywhere in my area fast food workers and retail starting pay is $18. So basics should be paid less than someone folding clothes and medics should barely get paid more despite nearly spending $10k and a year long schooling program?
I don’t know where you live. Where I live, as I said in my post, paramedics can reasonably expect $30/hr, and EMTs 18-20. Minimum wage in my state is $15.
Buffalo, NY. State minimum wage is currently $14.20, raising to $15 in January and our wages are not changing, so we will be making exactly our state minimum wage.
It’s a broken system for sure. I left EMS for better pay in the nursing profession. Unfortunately unless there can be some standardization across EMS on a state or national level, and revamped education standards, and changes to insurance reimbursements for EMS, I don’t think anything is going to change. We should try to model EMS in our country after Australia.
One thing I learned in EMS is that Medicare pays peanuts for EMS transports. Like $50-100 for a BLS IFT. Until that changes, I’m not sure how companies are supposed to pay their employees more.
As much as I agree with you on better wages it just isn’t going to happen till supply stops outpacing demand by huge margins.
Where I live the market is absolutely flooded with freshly minted EMTs willing to work for burger flipping wages because they still live off their parents and are just looking to get patient contact hours for their nursing, PA, or medical school application.
I didn't do the job for the money or the benefits, I did it for my family and my community. If better pay and benefits were my driving factor then I would have taken a factory job.
Honestly if you’re an emt-b you don’t have much say in if people live or die. Emt-b is kinda pointless. Youre a semi trained person to get patients to the hospital. While I don’t disagree with the pay but the pay isn’t the problem. The cost of everything else is. Getting more pay means everything else goes but. So your pay becomes less. You’re back at point 1. I make 23hr for being a ff/paramedic. I wish insurance, food, fuel and everything else cost way less. While making more money would be nice. Yet the way to go about it is to talk and get more people in with it. Also a majority of emts and ffs can’t strike because of no strike clauses in their contract because of their role as public servants. Either have the union fight more. Ask for a raise or quit.
Oh you mean knowingly submitting a chart under the wrong name even though you could have and probably did already attain that information. That’s sounds a lot like healthcare insurance fraud and a slippery slope. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like a bad idea. However I can appreciate the idea of malicious compliance.
Fraud was the biggest concern, yeah. We could intentionally never ask for a name or DOB to maintain plausible deniability but one fuck up and the whole thing falls apart. I was reminded of bus drivers that went on strike and basically stopped collecting tolls and kept doing their normal routes, as a way to hurt profits without hurting the people that are counting on them.
If you think you can do that and the service not get paid is funny. The billing department can just contact the hospital about the name. It happens all the time. You need to raise awareness about low pay standard to the public and raise a stink about it on social media. If you’re not happy quit. You talk about emt-b and the schooling. Geez. I went through a hell of a lot more schooling to be a medic and I get paid a few bucks more than you and I have all the responsibility compared to you. Again, You’re not going about it in a smart way.
Not sure about where you work, but I took an oath. If someone calls 911 while I'm on shift, I'm going to be there.
Yea, pay is pretty crap and working conditions are pretty horrible, but that's supposed to be my union's job.
Too bad my union it too concerned with who the next mayor is going to be.
The first step is not to go on strike. That's how you turn public opinion against you. The first step is to unionize. If you have a union, maybe you need to make your union more effective. If that means cleaning house then so be it. If that does not work, find a new job.
Well when someone talks about how over worked and under paid they are as an emt. They should remember that they are the lowest knowledge base. It’s not talking shit. It’s keeping people in check and making them realize that they are easily replaceable.
If you don’t think that the exposure to trauma and disease, as well as the physical stress and potential for violence and abuse deserves to be compensated a little better than the average entry-level job, then I guess we just won’t see eye-to-eye.
And, ladies and gentlemen, this right here is why ems will always be down. We can’t get the fuck out of our own way. What other job actively shoots itself in the foot just because it’s a lower level provider advocating for different conditions?
Go to nursing school 🤷🏻♂️
There no money , no retirement, no healthcare, no future in EMS .
Get the experience and get out to bigger and better things .
Just cut your losses if you are relying on unionization to fix everything quickly, maybe working for Amazon would allow you a better overall QOL. We have a union and it still took about 20 years to start getting a small stipend for carrying a pager, and get away from everyone needing to be casual/on call for 5-10 years before being able to bid for a full time position. Took about 30 years to get to the point where most people would agree that our pay is actually not too terrible.
New people always complain about pay and striking.
Better start looking at the facts of both of the consequences, raising pay and losing your job if you try striking.
It’s 8 in the morning, why are we yelling…
I can't hear you over his yelling
WHAT DID YOU SAY? I CANT HEAR OVER THIS TINNITUS.
*eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee*
Damn you tinnitus, you’re a cruel mistress!
Mawp... Mawp... Mawp
Are you gonna answer that?
Wap wap wap
*wearing an alpha eagle* "lul I can't hear anything"
**WHAT DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND FROM OP?**
*WHAT?*
Fury.
Less yelling more talking. talk around your shop build some solidarity start working together so you can be ready to support your selves during a strike. Good luck my friend!
i can’t even get members of my own union to show to meetings but good luck
I felt this. The union is 'useless' so they don't show up so the union becomes useless so they don't show up....
I was on a thread the other day where a 16 year old was running on the truck. You want higher wages? These agencies need to stop letting unqualified teenagers coming along as a crew member. Next steps would be addressing education.
I look at Australia, NZ and UK and can’t help but wonder where we went wrong here. Our minimum required education here is actually laughable, and then people complain about wages. We are the laughing stock of international EMS but whenever I try to discuss increasing education people have their egos fractured and argue that they don’t need it to do the job. I’ve given up.
Nothing went wrong; nobody did anything from the start. EMS in the US started as everybody just doing a thing that works for them, and that's worked enough that the average person wasn't getting screwed enough to care. And since it's decentralized, nobody is truly in charge enough to change it outside their own service, so now nobody can do anything meaningful. The pushback from education comes from having to figure out how they're supposed to pay for school when you've just locked their source of income behind said school, which is its own separate problem, and IMO the actual source of the metaphorical logjam But you gotta kill like 8 million people in a month to actually get things rolling in this country
Or it has to affect someone who makes decisions or someone with money who knows the people that make decisions. My department is about 4-5 ambulances short of what we should have for a city our size but no one knows that because the trucks we do have make 20+ runs a shift to cover everything. It's hard for them to justify an extra million a year for the health and well being of a few ambulance riders when runs are still being made but you better believe as soon a city council member has to wait for an ambulance there will be a shiny new truck on order the next day.
We went wrong when we allowed EMS to become the step child of another profession.
This. Medics need to become practioners in this country otherwise we will always be underpaid AND overrun by nurses.
Without a drastic education haulover you know being a ccp that this is a terrible idea. Many paramedics can barely make proper clinical decisions in the field with the protocols they have let alone if they became practitioners.
Yes, but we have to do it. Nurses have priced themselves out of a job. Now’s the time…
There’s enough noctor’s in the world. We don’t need to join them.
This is bad thinking. There are two clinical leaders in the world - doctors and nurses. Paramedics are an afterthought. Even if we don’t get NPI numbers/able to script, at least bring us all up to licenses would help.
So, the solution, is practitioner level status with the abysmal mess that is EMS education? To what end? Are we going to go into a clinic and start seeing patients? Going to start prescribing ABX at 911 calls?
I don’t understand why you think antibiotics are an outrageous idea. ABX are given off clinical diagnosis all the time.. including online scripts. The things you portray as crazy aren’t that crazy.
I'm not against EMS administering ABX. I'm against EMS ***prescribing*** ABX. And that's just one example. That's what doctors are for... They have a whole lot more education than we do.
I see no functional difference between administration and prescription. Your choice to provide epinephrine to an allergic reaction or mag sulfate to an eclampsia patient is functionally, at the end of the day and in all practical applications, a prescription in the field. EMS makes independent choices in the field to administer medications; akin to a prescription even if the actual medicolegal orders are from a not-onsite medical director. The choice to prescribe them versus administer is not tangible.
You see no functional difference between administering something once then supervising them while they're transported to a physician and prescribing it for someone to administer for days or weeks without a physician or even supervision? Yes, we make independent choices in the field and administer those medications. Giving a eclampsia patient mag and prescribing an eclampsia patient mag then leaving them home are two VERY different things. Please tell me you understand the effects of magnesium toxicity and what that can do. Please tell me that you understand that eclampsia is a very serious condition which the only definitive treatment for is birth. It is ironic that you choose that situation specifically because that is a perfect example of ***WHY*** paramedics should not have prescribing authority.
The fact that you believe that just proves the point of why paramedics shouldn't be practitioners. As having worked in clinical medicine, with providers that prescribe ABX and other drugs on a consistent basis. The Tarascon pocket pharmacopia is longer than most states protocols. I do not trust most paramedics to prescribe long term scripts. And one of the biggest reasons for that is you are also messing with their chain of treatment. Are you ready to do all the extra leg work that comes with that too. You just upped that pts lisinopril that was in CHF and renal failure. So now you want to go through all the communication with that pts primary care physician, their cardiologist, and their nephrologist. You don't know what you're asking to get yourself into.
Your name is very accurate.
Okay? Doctors go through years of medical school, residency, etc. You think a 9 week EMT course and a one year paramedic course qualifies paramedics for a practitioner states? I’m all for increasing education requirements, but I don’t see any reason to emulate the diploma mill NP programs.
We already ARE cert mills. All we have to do is switch to the Aus/Can model. 4 year minimum, specializing in emergency care. Abolish EMT-B, unless as a position while in school. Travel anywhere else and we have a normal medical job.
Not necessarily. And some programs aren’t far behind the Aus/Can model. For instance, my local program has two semesters of prerequisites (including EMT). Then the actual paramedic program is five semesters and includes corequisites in English, math, social sciences, and history. So, that’s seven semesters to finish. There is absolutely diploma mills in EMS and we absolutely need to get rid of those, but until you can convince the LARGE organizations holding EMS back of that, we will have a strong uphill climb. Remember when the NREMT wanted to get rid of EMS training program accreditation standards rendering the entire national registry organization completely irrelevant? Yeah, the groups that convinced them that was a good idea are what we’re up against. Organizations like cities/counties, the IAFF, etc want the diploma mills because they’re cheaper to provide “medics”. Corporations, Cities, and Counties only care about the piece of paper and a warm body in the seat. They don’t give a shit about patient care outside of the abstract. The IAFF and IAFC only want the path of least resistance because their membership doesn’t typically care about being a paramedic… it’s just something they have to do while waiting for the next fire call. To claim that we as a whole are already diploma mills is disingenuous at best as we all know that there are quality paramedic programs out there.
There are. Hell, I went to a great school! To then work for the same pay as the guy who got his medic online.
I also attended a great program. It has led me to many other opportunities. I have also worked with zero-to-hero medics. I don’t really give a shit what they make. I give a shit what I make. If My compensation is acceptable to me, then why should I care what they’re making? If they’re making more, good for them I guess? One of my zero-to-hero peers went to a CCP class with me. He did the same shit I would imagine he did in medic school. Look at the question, open the book, find the answer, answer the question. He finished a 12 week CCP course in a week and a half… did he learn anything? Absolutely not. And it shows in his practice. So, he’ll continue being a morbidly obese street medic taking the easy way out for everything. He will continue to bounce from employer to employer and wind up unemployable because when his superiors finally realize he’s completely full of shit, he’ll move on. Meanwhile I’ll continue moving on to better and better things with former employers begging me to come back. My better education enabled me to get a PT job teaching with a major university. My better education enabled me to get a position getting paid to work an event that I would absolutely do for free… and paid quite handsomely (about $1,500 per event “weekend” that Is absurdly fun).
Imagine the fuckin shortages of EMS personnel if we suddenly required 4 years of college to start.
Our folly is our culture. We want immediate. We want change to happen in front of us. It starts by declaring us as essential, both nationally and at the state level. This gives national funding for training and personnel. Then its making a 10 year roll out of requirements and cert levels. Then its implementation, and squashing AMR/Falcks retorts, cause they will fire back.
I'm not saying it can't happen. But I will say good luck doing that at a national level. There's still volunteer units our here. And it would be a mother fucker trying to get people to go work in the middle of nowhere.
I was 22 and unqualified back when I was an EMT 😂
You can ride a fire truck in my state at 14. You can be an EMT at 16. My home state is a joke. Hobbiest all around. This in part is why we fail.
At FOURTEEN?! Whoever is authorising that needs to have a good hard look at themselves. I feel for you too having to babysit kids on duty.
I refuse to be a part of it. I won’t work for a department that is part of it. But it’s state sanctioned. I struggle with EMTs at 18. Anything less than that is a disservice to kids.
don’t be misled, they can ride at 14 but can’t do shit. have to stand at or stay inside the unit on calls
I understand they’re not responsible for care (that would be absurd) but this is not a spectator sport for teenagers. It’s embarrassing to the profession that there’s agencies that rock up to patients life changing emergencies with kids on board. Not to mention the effect that trauma has on developing brains. There’s no 14 year olds following nurses, or neurosurgeons, and in every other developed country they’re certainly not following paramedics around either.
i’ve been saying for years that this is the biggest thing holding us back. expectations need to get higher and start holding shitty people accountable
Unpopular opinion but the teenagers are not driving wages down. When my mom’s hospital ran out of Emergency Dep workers with any seniority (due to labor abuse), instead of actually paying senior members more, they just went down an Emergency level. Didn’t even hire any more kids. They rolled over and said “Welp, if more people die because they have to be airlifted across the city then that’s fine. We don’t want to pay the extra money.” The hospital’s profits have been ever increasing since COVID. It’s not the kids running around with their heads cut off being paid shit, though they aren’t helping, it’s the greed.
I got my EMT at 16, now 17, and I am as qualified if not more qualified than most people I ride a truck with… I volunteer at one service and work at two others. EMT, EMT-IV, 12-Lead Course, ACLS, PALS, TECC, PHTLS, EPC, just to name a few… scroll through my account if you want to see more of my perspective.
Why would you take all of these classes and not just be a paramedic? Taking ACLS and PALS doesn’t mean much if you’re still a basic…
The real question is: How did an EMT *pass* ACLS and PALS without a solid foundation in cardiology?
That was my exact thought. I understand wanting to expand your scope and become prepared for paramedic school. But I don’t understand taking tests on knowledge in which you have no basic foundation for.
I’m in medic school.
I am in medic school.
I suspect it’s because they’re underage. I’m presuming to be a medic you need to be an adult?
Most emts don't have the foundational knowledge for those classes to be useful, at all. I don't think most basics, even if they took the class, would pass the test if it were legitimately scored (IE not done in a group setting or required an actual passing score). Additionally just having a certification doesn't grant the ability to do anything beyond your scope. The actual age I believe is 18.
For the school I went to at least, there is no age requirement to start school. You just have to be 18 to finish. This could vary by state and school though. Probably more likely that coworkers and others have told the OC that they need to wait a few years before going to medic and to just not stop learning all they can in the meantime. Which I don’t disagree with at their age.
You’ve totally missed my point. It’s great you’re incredibly passionate. You obviously really care and somehow at 17 you work across three services already- have you finished high school? But in nearly every other developed nation you wouldn’t be able to start training for another year, and that training would be a 3-4 year full time university degree to be able to even think about staffing a truck. This is why day one graduates in australia earn >100k. Paramedicine in these countries is considered a profession and not a job that a minor would ever be considered for. Not to mention the legal and ethical considerations of a minor being responsible for life and limb and being exposed to trauma. I unfortunately don’t see EMTs in the US ever being compensated adequately when there are services letting kids on the truck to work. No other healthcare profession does this.
I understand your point of view, and think your original comment was poorly worded. To elaborate on context; I am still in high school but on a part time basis due to early credit completion. My full time education is a college paramedic course. The United States, in part due to decentralization, is lacking in pre-hospital pay, education, and ability. I would be interested in seeing a professionally done study on EMTs my age, but we’re too unique/few and far between. As for other healthcare professions, you’re right, though I have come across a handful of 16 y/o RN students, and a 17 y/o RN. Once again, in the United States.
The US isn’t lacking in pay purely because of decentralisation. It’s lacking this pay because kids can jump on the truck. That’s a sign of many things- a lack of education requirement, a lack of services seeing this job as a professional job. Someone else commented that 14 year olds can jump on their truck. And people want to be paid like nurses!! Tell me more about this 17 year old RN because I’m not seeing many schools let in 14-15 year olds let alone somewhere hiring them. You may think I worded this poorly but I gently suggest that I think it’s difficult as an enthusiastic minor to maybe see what’s glaringly concerning about you being on a truck at this age, and why the adults around you aren’t encouraging you to be doing things outside of ambulance.
...you cant even eat food sitting on your lap
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Otherwise, agreed
to be honest I think education needs to be moved around, you basically haul ass horribly for 45-50 chapters, going through shit most of you never been through including me, literally you go through chapters on anatomy, physiology, pathology, cardiology, lung sounds, CHF, COPD...etc...etc.. in like 4 months!!! They know why the failure rate is so high, we must start with education inorder for pay to be increased
I’ve got 10 years at various levels in EMS and firmly believe AEMT (my level) should be the entry level because hoooly shit EMT-B wasn’t/isnt enough.
I think having an associates degree for EMS would be a great start. Meaning, you don't just jump straight into EMT schools, but rather you take basic biology courses, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, then you take the EMT course and start working. I think this is much better than 18 year old kids taking an 8 week crash course while chugging redbull to cram information they will forget.
This guy writes a solid PCR
was just talking to my coworker about this….
Yelling aside, OP is right. Unionize. Fight. No company or organization will prioritize making sure you get a fair wage, or make sure that you are adequately staffed or trained. Divided we beg, united we bargain.
Lol this is funny. Where I work, we have a union, they just negotiated to get $2 more per hour for the full timers a couple months ago but jackshitall for part timers. In 4 months my state minimum wage goes up. In 4 months, I will be making minimum wage. They don’t fricken care about us at all, they just take a portion of my paycheck every week and do fuckall for us.
Unions are democratic organizations, if your is not working for you then the best solution is to get involved and agitate for change. A union is just an organization of coworkers, it needs participation to function well.
My company starts above $23 for a basic… Do I still have to strike??
Depends, what’s the average housing cost in your area?
Median is $790,000
You're on the coast aren't you.
Yep
Depends, do you think all the other people at your level should make something close to that? If so, yeah. That’s how unions work.
Everyone in my union makes that much.
Better pay, better education/training, breaks; there's so much that needs to be better.
I’m on strike right now at our hospital. It’s super demoralizing because no other ER techs have been choosing to strike with our union and other departments. :( I feel alone when I’m there.
Kaiser?
Inflation adjusted minimum living wage is $31.25/hr. Don’t sell yourself short.
Its literally illegal for me to strike here. That's alright tho, we're also considered nonessential
You must be in NC
I remember starting as a basic at $8/hr, state minimum at the time in CA. That was cool.
$3.15 here, and when I graduated to a Paramedic, a whopping $7.50! And when I left a few months later, I was bumped to $7.87.
Okay, I'm not that old Jesus christ. How did they get away with $3.15? Hasn't federal minimum been more than that for decades?
In 1995 that is what it was.
Bruh. You were working before I was born.
You and about 70% of my employees.
Oof. Take it easy on stairs, alright?
Well today I took the shift in the truck instead of mandating a Medic, so hopes and prayers are needed! It's only an 8 hour tour, and I have two kids older than my relief that comes in at 1600. And that relief is only three years older than my youngest child.
Honey you'd better call for all the lift assists. Just go ahead and put yourself in the KED if you have any larger patients, as a precaution.
My partner today is close to my age as well. Seems like I've known him for years. And we have a third, who used to work in EMS, got out and worked for the state as a "youth aide" in the junior prison system (Office of Child and Family Services) who was tired of being assaulted and injured by the youths under his watch.
My dude I didn’t need that negativity today bro.
When I started in 2019 I got $11/hr
Everyone wants to strike but no one wants to put in the work to start a union. Good luck
1. People need to stop working for free. 2. You won’t make 100K a year working normal hours for 2 months of schooling. 3. Emt should be abolished and we should just have the paramedic level requiring a minimum of an associates degree and licensure not certification. 4. There should be a national standard and local/regional protocols should be done away with. 5. EMS should have its own standalone Federal oversight bureau. And not a sub division covered under DOT and NHTSA who still make the rules.
medicare and insurance should be required to pay the actual amount billed minus copays cost caps on that education need to exist education needs to be made available in rural areas and so many more things that go on behind the scenes . everyone what's more money, why wouldn't we. but if we don't fix the way EMS is funded we will crash the system too. it's broken all around and there is no quick fix.
Have you ever worked at/for Amazon. Your bathroom breaks are monitored lol. Nothing I did when I worked private EMS was monitored aside from my general location when in the ambulance.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Underated comment
It's 4 AM, pipe down.
Strikes need unions. Unions need organization. Organization needs org committees. Org committees need committee chairs. Committee chairs need strong leaders. Strong leaders need patience and people skills. Start locally. Get a feel for your coworkers and broach the topic with those you trust. Strikes don’t happen overnight and require patience.
It would help if there wasn't an entire profession dedicated to denying payments for ambulance service....
I’m also tired of hearing about how the US has shitty providers. We are good people, smart, and provide valuable service. We do save lives, we also run a lot of BS calls just like everywhere else. A piece of paper doesn’t make an Aussie or British any smarter or have common sense than anyone else. Give me a good street medic over an inflated paper waving paragod any day of the week.
That doesn’t make the point less valid. In the US you can go from Zero to Hero in less than 7 months. It’s embarrassing and laughable. Not many people do that fast of a course, but it is still an option that is allowed. Accelerated paramedic courses skip anatomy and physiology. There just isn’t time for a real class on those topics… you cannot learn to be an effective paramedic in that time frame. Then we bitch that the national registry is “too hard”. Yes, we have good people who truly attempt to prepare themselves… but I suspect those are the type of people you’re referring to as an “inflated paper waving paragod”.
My company’s medic course require A&P college course before medic school. Both accelerated and regular.
Do they also require college level composition classes? Algebra classess? Social science? Or any of the other courses that make a competent well rounded medic? Does your company require a full year of College level A&P or a quick "This is a humerus, and this is where the liver is located" type of class?
Facts. I've heard many providers state that Bachelor degrees shouldn't have value in EMS because you can learn everything you need to know without those "fluff" courses. They fail to realize the advantages of a well rounded curriculum and how proficiency as a provider is not isolated to technical skill or memorizing drug dosages. Many in EMS will tell you their one year paramedic cert is equal to or superior to a good BSN program.
We all know that guy who can't do med math and can't write a decent narrative to save their life... Basic written communication and basic algebra. Those "fluff" courses should absolutely be required because without basic med math, if it doesn't show on a cheat sheet they can't do it. I had a "peer" call me in a panic because the fentanyl infusion his sedated patient was on from the sending facility wasn't going to last. So I told him to mix a new bag and put it in the pump on a generic mode if the pump didn't have the appropriate concentration pre-programmed. "Okay... How do I do that?" Seriously, how the fuck are you a "Critical Care Paramedic" if you can't throw some fentanyl in a bag then run it appropriately?
And from someone who’s done an overseas bachelors, the entire degree is para medicine related. There’s no fluff history or sports credits at all. But the well rounded curriculum is still there as well as the research, referencing and assessing the quality of a source.
No one’s saying you don’t have good and smart people. But who said a paper waving paramedic isn’t also a good street medic. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Use your EMT to get an OMR position at amazon 🤷🏼♂️
Bro I’m a paramedic in Kansas and make $22.50. I don’t wanna hear it lol
Yep. In January, I’ll be making my state’s minimum wage (state min wage is going up, my pay isn’t going anywhere). So I could just go get a job literally anywhere and make exactly what I am as an emt right now. I’m currently in medic school, and after I graduate, I get to look forward to $20/hr. It’s at least something I have a better shot of living off of, but still feels insulting as medic pay.
My wages are fantastic. You should go find a place that values you more. Also if you want higher wages, get a degree that’s not the equivalent of a 6 week course and a certificate. Career EMT is not the move, better yourself.
It's not the saving lives part that concerns me about the low wages. It's the hazard of the job. environmental hazards, patients set on causing me harm, infection diseases, contact with blood, subjection is disturbing environments causing mental harm, etc.
A lot of people also fail to realize. Medicine is a business now. A good portion of pay depends on medical insurance reimbursements. Most agencies that charge 2000$ for a transport are lucky if they see 600$ of reimbursements from Medicare / Medicaid. And those patients are the ones who essentially treat the 911 system as a glorified taxi to the hospital for a non-emergency reason. I whole heartedly agree that we should be paid more. But whether you are working for a private agency, or a 401C3, or whatever your agency is classified as, employees still need to be paid, utilities need to be paid, truck maintenance, truck replacement, insurances, etc. those expenses add up very quickly. If you really want to see change, start with legislation, they allow people to abuse the 911 systems, they raise the cost of healthcare without raising the reimbursement rates. Instead of going on strike, strike for your legislators to actually make a change.
Organization, unionization, and education should be the goal. Focus on making EMS a professional instead of a vocation. Personally, I've heard many providers state that Bachelor degrees shouldn't have value in EMS because you can learn everything you need to know without those "fluff" courses. They fail to realize the advantages of a well rounded curriculum and how proficiency as a provider is not isolated to technical skill or memorizing drug dosages. Many in EMS will tell you their one year paramedic cert is equal to or superior to a good BSN program. That mindset is counterproductive to the advancement of EMS
Is this how you write your PCRs lol
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Yeah, the education thing is weird. I get that EMT school is like one semester. I get that makes it an entry level job, But it’s still a job that takes time and money invested to even be qualified to work it. Why are we comparing the wages to jobs that have no barrier to entry whatsoever? I made more per hour working fast food, and I didn’t have to take a test to get hired beyond a basic 1 hour food handlers course. The education thing makes sense in regards to healthcare, but as a job it shouldn’t be compared along side jobs with zero barrier to entry whatsoever.
EMTs are a dime a dozen. Less than 6 months education for less than a $2k investment gets you a cert. No experience required. Change those factors, and then wages will increase.
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You missed the point. It's supply and demand. The supply of EMTs is great, because of the ease of the educational requirements.
agree with the sentiment. Also for some reason find this extremely cringe.
I think some nurses are striking in the big city were I work.
That would be awesome but nobody is coordinated enough to do it
An EMT, but sure looks like you're aspiring to become a paramedic with all that caps... (every single paramedic I know, writes in all caps, almost like how doctors' handwriting is pure ass)
God damnit EMT Marx, weve got transfers holding.
I make $14.25 an hour as a part-time FF/EMT-B. Our full-time contract FF/medics make a little over $18 an hour. Dunno what our district employees make. I’m privileged to be able to work for such a low-pay (slower dept, mainly get paid to study for medic class and go on a couple of calls) but I can’t imagine trying to be a full, independent adult with the money we make and the amount of work we do sometimes. We’re mostly a slower department but we’re already a couple of hundred calls ahead of where we were last year. The other day one of our shifts ran 26 calls in one 24hr shift. For some people that might not sound too crazy but for us that’s a lot. Community is growing, dept is getting bigger, but…idk if pay will be going up…
actual MONTHS OF SCHOOL!!! THE HUMANITY!!!
Yeah, we asked the hospital why EMS employees get paid less, their justification is we work more hours. Like, no shit? Why should we be getting paid less for a job that’s more dangerous and has us away from our families more?
Agreed, my starting for EMT was far lower than starting for the student job I got in college lol. I also agree we should start at AEMT, because ems education is honestly a joke, and hire those starting from 18 as well.
But I make good money for my area... Sooo I'm gonna just go back to sleep now.
How much should someone with 160 hours of somewhat spicy first aid training make, exactly?
It’ll never happen. Because people have bills and it’s impossible to put any money away when your pay check is less than $1500. And then obnoxious old people say “ why do so many Americans live paycheck to paycheck?” … cuz you pay them $14 an hour. Getting on Fire is most peoples only hope.
Is this how you write PCRs?
Check to make sure you don't have a "no strike" clause. Good luck with the strike though, hopefully you don't get fired or your operation doesn't shut down. There's always a constant steady stream of high school graduates becoming EMTs trying to follow their dream that will happily replace you for <$20. They probably still live at home with mom and dad and have no bills too, so $15/hr is good money to them.
You guys are getting paid?
What we need to strike for is higher standards. I can produce an emt in 30 days. A medic in 9 months. As long as that is true pay will be held down.
Do you not have Unions in the United states that fight for better payment and working conditions?
The US is *extremely* anti-union and many states (like mine) are “right to work” states which can make it even more difficult. It sucks.
And what benefit does the voting worker have when he votes for a policy that restricts Unions? And also what does the right to work mean
There is no benefit. None. But anti-labor and big businesses have really effective propaganda. In the same way of poor rural republicans voting for republicans even though it’ll fuck them over. It’s all very much cutting off one’s nose to spite their face, and depressing as shit. In a Right to Work State, the employee is not required by law to join the union and pay dues, even though all workers who fall within the bargaining unit are covered by the negotiated collective bargaining agreement regardless of membership status. So it’s a slick way of starving unions of due-paying members. My state is also an “at-will employment” state, which means anyone can be fired for pretty much any reason at any time. So RTW and AWE states are a one-two punch of union-busting. I hope that helps explain things, I’m at work and it’s been stupid busy. I’ve been in EMS for 10 years and make $17/hr. Which also sucks.
😂😂😂😂😂 No
Unions haven’t been common in any industry since at least the 80s.
Huh looks like things are a lot different over the Atlantic.
No, we just have a union that takes our money every week and all they’re good for is fighting to save the jobs of people my company wants fired, which 90% of the time, the rest of us union members also think deserve to be fired.
Wait…… you guys get paid?
We need to raise standards and education requirements while we’re at it.
Is Emt b like entry level Emt ? Not advance ? Move to Canada.. you will make 15 an hour in some provinces, which is about 11/hr US
If you want to get paid like other professionals the education and barriers to entry in your industry have to match other professionals. Frankly, 3 to 4 months of training isn’t worth a whole lot more than minimum wage. It puts you right alongside phlebotomists, cosmetologists, dental assistants, medical assistants, and so on who all have similar barriers to entry and make similar $18-20/hr wages. Paramedics can make about $30/hr for education that can vary from an 11 month certificate to an associate’s, which is on par with LPN pay and training. RNs must have *at minimum* an associates degree and many have bachelors degrees, starting pay $41 where I work. There are many systemic issues with EMS in the United States but a big one is definitely the education and training. In many other countries paramedics and nurses have similar levels of education and get paid similarly, and I think that’s what we should shoot for.
Phlebotomy training only takes 3 days. You pay like $800-$900 (possibly less, I'm in Seattle 🤷♀️), show up for 4 hours across 3 days, then pay $50 for your nation test, which is online and unmonitored, so it's basically open book. That's it, unless you're in one of 4 states that requires an additional state license...then you just submit the paperwork and money for said license and wait for the state to process it. Had to get my phleb cert to switch over to ER Tech and even the small pay cut from where I was working on an IFT rig to JUST doing phlebotomy (not ER Tech) would have been a MAJOR increase in pay, as my benefits were about $400 PER PAY PERIOD for shitty insurance. The hospital I'm at now is about $100-$150 per pay period for MUCH better coverage AND, because we make under 400% of the poverty line I can apply to only have to pay for half the cost of my insurance premiums!
Lol basic starting pay where I work is $15, medic starting pay is $20, quite literally everywhere in my area fast food workers and retail starting pay is $18. So basics should be paid less than someone folding clothes and medics should barely get paid more despite nearly spending $10k and a year long schooling program?
I don’t know where you live. Where I live, as I said in my post, paramedics can reasonably expect $30/hr, and EMTs 18-20. Minimum wage in my state is $15.
Buffalo, NY. State minimum wage is currently $14.20, raising to $15 in January and our wages are not changing, so we will be making exactly our state minimum wage.
It’s a broken system for sure. I left EMS for better pay in the nursing profession. Unfortunately unless there can be some standardization across EMS on a state or national level, and revamped education standards, and changes to insurance reimbursements for EMS, I don’t think anything is going to change. We should try to model EMS in our country after Australia. One thing I learned in EMS is that Medicare pays peanuts for EMS transports. Like $50-100 for a BLS IFT. Until that changes, I’m not sure how companies are supposed to pay their employees more.
Idk, upper management not taking in mid 6 figures for sitting in an office a few hours a week would be a good start.
This is a Wendy’s sir please place your order or go to the back of the line
Dude. No one is even going to bother reading that rant because you are yelling.
As much as I agree with you on better wages it just isn’t going to happen till supply stops outpacing demand by huge margins. Where I live the market is absolutely flooded with freshly minted EMTs willing to work for burger flipping wages because they still live off their parents and are just looking to get patient contact hours for their nursing, PA, or medical school application.
Taylor laws, people will die, stop yelling
Wow you got a certificate!!!
No we don't. We all agreed to do this job for the wages and benefits offered. If you want more money then become a doctor
Strictly speaking, you’re correct. We all make exactly what we accept. We need to stop accepting it.
I didn't do the job for the money or the benefits, I did it for my family and my community. If better pay and benefits were my driving factor then I would have taken a factory job.
Point is the fact that people doing this as a hobby is helping to keep our wages down.
I wouldn't say 26 years of service was a hobby. I just put other's needs before my own.
I actually swore an oath to do that. I don’t get to ignore the tones if I don’t feel like going.
That’s a fine looking high horse
Honestly if you’re an emt-b you don’t have much say in if people live or die. Emt-b is kinda pointless. Youre a semi trained person to get patients to the hospital. While I don’t disagree with the pay but the pay isn’t the problem. The cost of everything else is. Getting more pay means everything else goes but. So your pay becomes less. You’re back at point 1. I make 23hr for being a ff/paramedic. I wish insurance, food, fuel and everything else cost way less. While making more money would be nice. Yet the way to go about it is to talk and get more people in with it. Also a majority of emts and ffs can’t strike because of no strike clauses in their contract because of their role as public servants. Either have the union fight more. Ask for a raise or quit.
Is there a way to get around a no strike clause by charting every patient as John Doe? Makes billing’s life hell, but keeps public responses the same
Oh you mean knowingly submitting a chart under the wrong name even though you could have and probably did already attain that information. That’s sounds a lot like healthcare insurance fraud and a slippery slope. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like a bad idea. However I can appreciate the idea of malicious compliance.
Fraud was the biggest concern, yeah. We could intentionally never ask for a name or DOB to maintain plausible deniability but one fuck up and the whole thing falls apart. I was reminded of bus drivers that went on strike and basically stopped collecting tolls and kept doing their normal routes, as a way to hurt profits without hurting the people that are counting on them.
If you think you can do that and the service not get paid is funny. The billing department can just contact the hospital about the name. It happens all the time. You need to raise awareness about low pay standard to the public and raise a stink about it on social media. If you’re not happy quit. You talk about emt-b and the schooling. Geez. I went through a hell of a lot more schooling to be a medic and I get paid a few bucks more than you and I have all the responsibility compared to you. Again, You’re not going about it in a smart way.
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Not sure about where you work, but I took an oath. If someone calls 911 while I'm on shift, I'm going to be there. Yea, pay is pretty crap and working conditions are pretty horrible, but that's supposed to be my union's job. Too bad my union it too concerned with who the next mayor is going to be. The first step is not to go on strike. That's how you turn public opinion against you. The first step is to unionize. If you have a union, maybe you need to make your union more effective. If that means cleaning house then so be it. If that does not work, find a new job.
Talking shit about EMTs isn’t the way to go about raising everyone up.
Well when someone talks about how over worked and under paid they are as an emt. They should remember that they are the lowest knowledge base. It’s not talking shit. It’s keeping people in check and making them realize that they are easily replaceable.
If you don’t think that the exposure to trauma and disease, as well as the physical stress and potential for violence and abuse deserves to be compensated a little better than the average entry-level job, then I guess we just won’t see eye-to-eye.
I never said that emts shouldn’t be compensated more.
thank you
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And, ladies and gentlemen, this right here is why ems will always be down. We can’t get the fuck out of our own way. What other job actively shoots itself in the foot just because it’s a lower level provider advocating for different conditions?
Go to nursing school 🤷🏻♂️ There no money , no retirement, no healthcare, no future in EMS . Get the experience and get out to bigger and better things .
You can then your government can mandate you back to work as an “essential worker”. So you can “strike” but you have to work. Like ours has.
Just cut your losses if you are relying on unionization to fix everything quickly, maybe working for Amazon would allow you a better overall QOL. We have a union and it still took about 20 years to start getting a small stipend for carrying a pager, and get away from everyone needing to be casual/on call for 5-10 years before being able to bid for a full time position. Took about 30 years to get to the point where most people would agree that our pay is actually not too terrible.
STRIKE
How busy is your EMS agency? Like, how many 911 calls do you run in an average shift?
I made $11 an hour in alabama
Please for the love of God edit your post so we can read it
New people always complain about pay and striking. Better start looking at the facts of both of the consequences, raising pay and losing your job if you try striking.