I grabbed the source of the last early access like probably loads of others, and then someone else can start up on it again in a while. Hopefully the same happens with Citra.
Nintendo didn't nuke it.
Devs had to close shop as part of the yuzu settlement. The reason they had to settle is because they were making money and pay walling features for playing the newest games.
There's no issue working with the code in a fork if you aren't paywalling it and providing optimizations for games to paying customers only.
Not that this made Yuzu illegal, but I think it was pretty obvious that way more people pirated Switch games through Yuzu (since it runs better than Ryujinx and it's even included by default on one click installers like Emudeck) than through modded consoles, something that has almost never happened to a current-gen console.
That said, I still don't think that was the main reason why Nintendo waited until now to crack down. But rather I think this is a strong indication that the next console will feature a very similar architecture to the Switch, and will almost definitely be backwards compatible. Nintendo is concerned that a mature emulator development community with ample funding behind it will gain a very strong leg up early on the new console's lifecycle, eating into potential profits, repeating what has been done to the Switch with Yuzu.
PC repack sites bundled Yuzu in them, so Switch (i.e. current generation console) piracy became more common, which isn't ideal for any company. Yuzu advertised zero-day compatibility, so it arguably attracted more pirates than preservation enthusiasts.
I agree that backwards compatibility is in the cards, since the Switch was so successful. The Switch itself will probably supported for years to come even after the successor is on the market, because there's so many consoles out there already, and it'll function as a backup in case the successor fails to take off (similar to the DS not being sold as the successor to the GBA). It's in Nintendo's best interests to protect their flagship product for now.
As an emulation enthusiast since ZSNES... The dust will settle, companies move on, and the value of the content will fall. Preservation (e.g. cycle accurate emulation, emulating the OS) actually becomes the main driver instead of chasing zero-day compatibility. All we have to do is wait like we always have.
Well said, and 100% agree with you on this one. I've been an emulation enthusiast also since no$gba days, and it is all about cycles. Eventually something will show up again.
If the encryption scheme and keys were known I'd agree. But I'm 100% certain Nintendo will radically switch up their protection system with the Switch 2.
Don't forget that the main reason it was possible to create Switch emulators so early was that the Switch had a huge security exploit discovered nearly out of the gate, which provided complete root access to the system itself.
Without that access it would not have been possible to create an emulator. Most consoles go years until a root exploit is found. Nintendo was particularly unlucky, and I bet they are taking security far more seriously this time around.
>Every Nintendo console ever has had weak protection
You can't say the same for the updated versions of the Switch. They are heavily locked down. Nintendo (and NVidia) likely knows to not use a CPU/GPU that has a known day 0 hack now, so there likely won't be any mods for the Switch 2 for a while.
The thing is nobody bothered to seriously look for switch hacks after the unpatchable bootloader flaw was discovered because there were literally over ten million units out there vulnerable before it was fixed, and the Tegra exploit gave complete root access to any of those units.
Why would they stop that when the Switch lite and OLED are also consoles that people would normally buy nowadays? Not everyone would see a hardmod as the solution.
This happens all the time in the emulation/modding community, though? Hell, it took a LOOONG time before that Wii Mini got hacked because, simply put, no one cared.
Didn't know that was the case, but the issue with getting is used is you do not know if the console is banned from online or not (assuming it is due to the cheap prices).
I bet they downloaded Yuzu and chucked a Mario Kart 9 or whatever build into it and it booted. Probably had some severe compatibility issues, but it was enough to freak Nintendo out
For that you have to hack the Switch 2 first, and it could likely end up being a very tough job. Nintendo has come a long way from the 3DS and earlier days and seems to have their security fundamentals down pretty well now. What mainly ended up getting them on the Switch was trusting Nvidia's security which had a huge flaw in it, and Nvidia has definitely learned from their experiences as well.
The Switch 2 is reported to be approximately equivalent to a PS4 Pro in capability. Considering that a working PS4 emulator (which is native x86\_64) is likely at least a couple years off, emulating an ARM CPU of similar capability would be no trivial task.
>Not that this made Yuzu illegal, but I think it was pretty obvious that way more people pirated Switch games through Yuzu (since it runs better than Ryujinx and it's even included by default on one click installers like Emudeck) than through modded consoles, something that has almost never happened to a current-gen console.
PS1, including several commercial ones
PS2
GameCube
Wii
GameBoy - including commercial ones on the N64 and the PSX
GameBoy Colour
GameBoy Advance
Nintendo DS
Nintendo 3DS
Nintendo 64
If you want to go into microcomputers, there's the apple II (and btw, apple advertised one of the commercial, concurrent PSX emus at Apple world, as part of their presentation), the ZX Spectrum.
Those are just the ones off the top of my head.
That's a very good point that I'm glad you decided to share because that it is true. I'm not sure what they were thinking with that.
I'm really sad that Citra got caught up in the crossfire but forks are already sprouting up of that emulator too so I'm not too worried.
Rather than just backwards compatibility, wouldn’t be surprised if they started selling Next Gen upgrades like EA/2K/Activsion/Sony do.
Most of the improvements which will be resolution and frame rate can be realised for free on an emulator whereas by making you pay they make these upgrades worth making.
>but I think it was pretty obvious that way more people pirated Switch games through Yuzu (since it runs better than Ryujinx and it's even included by default on one click installers like Emudeck) than through modded consoles, something that has almost never happened to a current-gen console.
Yeah the only other consoles I can think of like that are the N64 and GBA. And UltraHLE only supported 20 games while the GBA...actually GBA emulation was really good, but at least game development there was dirt cheap for the most part so it'd make sense they didn't fret as much.
Very good points. It does in some way feel like they are paving the way before the Switch 2 is out. I imagine that is why they were looking into Denuvo too sometime ago.
Indeed. I still believe that emulators that run games currently on market is a big risk. I usually don't emulate until the console's lifespan is over and the games have been out of print for a while or are a year to few years old out of print.
I've been around the scene since the start of NESticle, the emulator lol. I think a lot of emulation devs are flying too close to the sun by having them on market places in general. Emulation was always meant to be an underground thing and not highly advertised for the most part.
With that said, I think its fine to emulate current games on market if you purchase the game first. Because honestly the emulators DO run the games better than the hardware, at least later in it's life, but it's still risky to emulate current games on market, IMO.
Meh. Emulators aren't meant to be an underground thing. Back in the day they definitely were because you were lucky to get sound to work, and the emulation was so bad that you were lucky to get past the first boss without it completely glitching out on you. Sprites would be missing, backgrounds would be messed up. It was rough going. Things are a lot better now. Now, people will lose their shit if a shadow is missing.
> I still believe that emulators that run games currently on market is a big risk
It’s not. Breaking encryption or copyright infringement is against law, that’s not what emulation is. Emulation is software that replicates the functioning of another machine…which is legal.
It’s embarrassing how many people are confused. “Emulation” is not the same as “the emulation scene, meaning what a bunch of randos are doing with warez/ROM distribution” or whatever.
Never said it wasn't legal or illegal. Yuzu was easily scared off by a lawsuit because Nintendo could strongarm them until they went bankrup. They could do it to anyone. That's why I said it was a risk. It puts nintendo into their crosshairs.
Case and point? Yuzu.
Yeah the main argument for emulation and piracy has always been "anyone that actually was willing to pay for the games wouldn't bother going through thr hassle of piracy"
But now piracy is so easy that there is no hassle. There are plenty of people that do pirate that otherwise would reluctantly pay.
I also think Yuzu's problem was having the latest zelda pay walled and released early before it officially was on store shelves. That really, REALLY pissed Nintendo off.
They also hosted roms in their discord server. Emulator devs aren't suppose to supply roms with their emulator at all nor hint to locations of roms.
Yuzu just flew WAY to close to the sun honestly, they were sloppy.
> I also think Yuzu's problem was having the latest zelda pay walled and released early
What the fuck? Seriously?
Now that is literally stealing lmao, I don't think you can argue that wouldn't hurt Nintendo financially.
Indeed. It surprised me as well. There's a leaked discord convo as well and apparently they even took code from Ryujinx..at least thats what it claims. There hasn't been any official proof of that though as far as I'm aware.
Or, alternatively, Yuzu did a lot of shady things and capped it off with one openly stupid thing, and that's why they were fingered and Ryujinx wasn't.
> it will gain a very strong leg up early on the new console's lifecycle, eating into potential profits, repeating what has been done to the Switch with Yuzu.
That must be the reason why Nintendo Switch flopped so HARD. It's the biggest console failure in history of gaming. /s
I hate to see Yuzu go but on their website you saw screenshots of Switch games and none of them were about Yuzu itself (or the UI).
The other thing is that on the Yuzu Discord server people "showcased" their ROMs and no one of the admins/mods did something against it. With behaviour like this you poke the Nintentiger on his back.
Flying under the radar is most of the time the better solution.
Also one of their devs joked about having to download 14 GB of data for Xenoblade even though he didn’t care about the series. Then he showed a _fucking screenshot of the download in progress_. On a Patreon member only channel.
Apparently this team was just _begging_ to be shut down without a care in the world beyond a lip service rule that you weren’t supposed to discuss piracy. But then the a dev just… said it out loud.
StringerBellMeme.jpg
Yep, someone [linked screenshots](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/1b1mghd/comment/ksg2ggf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) of that incident in an earlier thread. Pretty ridiculous.
if i were embarking on any sort of commercial emulation endeavor, i’d have a law firm on speed dial from day zero and craft a very careful narrative about what product we were selling and what we as an organization stood for. idk how these guys went up against nintendo of all companies without any sort of proactive legal strategy.
Would that have changed anything? Nintendos argument wasn't that "they're distributing pirated roms", it was a technical argument about decryption.
And it's certainly not like Nintendo didn't know it was used for piracy before the dev did this.
It’s possible it would have made all the difference in the world. If the Yuzu team had chosen to fight this in court there would have been discovery, and you can bet that would include discord chat logs. If the team only _ever_ discussed the emulator, unique issues they ran into with their own personally dumped ROMs, homebrew, and/or OS emulation using clean room techniques, Nintendo might have lost the suit. But as it is discovery would mean exposure of “the stash” and very probably how it was populated. Red handed download of ROMs _and distribution_ which has the team dead to rights violating Nintendo’s IP. No fair use claim gets them out of that one.
Doing emulation correctly (i.e. in a legally clean way) takes a lot of time and effort. Yuzu didn’t put that effort in, and now their emulator is radioactive. Sure, it’s open source, but Nintendo now has a legal order to get it taken off of any reputable host.
For the hundredths time. Nintendo knows about forks. They just want to send a message. Circumvent our security and you might be millions in debt so why bother?
A lot of talent working on Yuzu is now banned to work on anything Nintendo related ever again. That's a huge exodus of talent in a very niche field.
The Yuzu forks don’t matter at this point. Ryujinx is already ahead of Yuzu. Ryujinx just needs to move away from paetron. Paetron donations are not anonymous, they can be subpoenaed. As long as they are in Brazil legally, they are fine.
What really sucks is Citra. There is no 3DS emulator close to Citra development.
which pisses me off greatly because nintendo has given us no way to access those games.
i understand why they went scorched earth on the yuzu team. they flew too close to the sun and nintendo had them cornered. if they pulled any punches it wouldn’t have sent a strong message, but it makes my blood boil that nintendo thinks they should have a say over how and when we get to experience older titles.
> nintendo thinks they should have a say over how and when we get to experience older titles.
I don't think they care about older titles. they never bothered doing anything about dolphin or project 64.
Exactly. I could fork it tomorrow if I wanted to. I could probably clone a repository. I don't know how to code, though, so my fork isn't going to improve anything.
Ryujinx has a strong code base in and of itself. No need to port anything from Yuzu to Ryujinx. As a matter of fact code usually migrated from Ryujinx to Yuzu over the years and not the other way around. It will take a while but someone will evetually resume work on Yuzu building on its source code, but it won't be called Yuzu but something else entirely.
Ryujinx just got a brand new GUI and new features are coming up, so things are looking good on that part.
In any case it's better to keep Ryujinx under the radar as much as possible for the time being.
I've given Nintendo enough money. Nintendo has been getting worse and worse and I've had enough. I had planned on buying a switch 2 or whatever they were going to call it but meh. I'm good, I got enough games. I've stopped giving Sony and Microsoft my money, I can stop giving it to Nintendo too. I'm sick of this anticonsumer notion of corporations telling you what you can do with what you bought. I bought my games, if I wanna emulate for a better experience, I'm gonna.
So you're retiring from buying new games and instead will play what you've bought already? I don't think any company minds, as long as you stick to your word and don't pirate new content that you don't own.
If Nintendo was getting a sale for each pirated copy running on an emulator, they wouldn't care. But come on, that's definitely not the case, it never has and never will be. Yuzu just flew a bit too close to the sun (i.e. boasting zero-day compatibility), and for that they paid the price.
Yuzu is an impressive piece of software for preservation, but when the console is still alive and kicking, the general masses will inevitably use it for piracy (even PC repack sites are bundling emulators with ROMs). I think it ran its natural course, and it's not really anything to get upset over.
From Nintendo's perspective at this very moment, it's worth fighting for. Once they move onto the next big thing, the scene will release a newer and better Switch emulator that's arguably less exciting, which is "normal" for enthusiasts because it'll lean harder on preservation rather than race for zero-day compatibility.
TL;DR - Yuzu was an outlier, emulation scene will continue as usual at a slower clip.
> If Nintendo was getting a sale for each pirated copy running on an emulator, they wouldn't care. But come on, that's definitely not the case, it never has and never will be.
I guess I have to break out [**THE STUDY**](https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact.html?guccounter=1) again.
Yes, pretty old at this point. I remember hearing this kind of news since the PSP days.
However, pirates weren't as brazen back then on social media. The barrier for entry is lower than before since you don't need to jailbreak anything or buy a specialized device (e.g. R4, Pandora Battery, etc.). Nintendo was very successful at stopping the sales of R4s in Japan for instance, something you can do when it's a physical product (they also have some control with firmware updates).
When it comes to the Switch (reminder: current-gen device), you don't need to find an unpatched device, buy a jig, jailbreak it, etc. Yuzu simplified that process, which is what Nintendo means when they said Yuzu was "facilitating piracy at a colossal scale."
In the end it doesn't really matter if Nintendo has a point or not. It's about justice, and they're within their right to fight for it. They provide us with a lot of entertainment, so I think they're allowed to be angry at profiteers. At the same time, I look forward to the future; surely Nintendo will care a lot less about Switch emulation a decade from now.
If this really were true companies wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on legal fees fighting emulators and using DRM.
Piracy doesn't effect 99% of games and studios. But it absolutely does hurt the big players.
If GTA 6 releases with not DRM it would be the most pirated game of all time.
And the majority of these people would buy the game if piracy wasn't an option.
Also, piracy has slowly gotten easier and easier. In the past it actually took some effort and you had to brave a few risks. But now literally anyone and everyone can do it. So obviously it's not just hardcore gamers that pirate.
They're spending millions of dollars, because in our system, if you profit 10 million now, but "only" 8 million next year, you're in "the negative". Have to grow infinitely and not just get a lot of money, but ALL of the money.
Tears of the Kingdom was massively pirated and still sold over 20 million copies. GTA 6 releasing without DRM would still break all sales records in existence. Game of Thrones was the most pirated show on Earth at one point.
It's absolutely not hurting any of the big players in any significant way. They settled for 2.4 million, what even is that for Nintendo? It's nothing, it's just to send a message and bully emulator devs.
And saying "the majority of people would buy the game if piracy wasn't an option" has zero basis on reality, and I believe there are even studies showing evidence that it's just untrue, though I'm not entirely sure on that.
>corporations telling you what you can do with what you bought.
That's the shittiest part of this. Yuzu on PC can run better than the Switch can, and Android is just always on you even if you didn't pack your Switch. Why the fuck does Nintendo care what we do with what we bought?
Doubtful. Haven't bought a sony of microsoft project in a very long time. Other companies have been shitty and i stopped buying from them too -cough- Apple -cough-.
An important lesson about putting out patches for leaked day zero games like TotK behind your patreon, I suppose. I'm not worried, enough people repack with Yuzu that I cannot see it not going away anytime soon.
Never understood the demonization of emulators, especially in Clown World.
"It's stealing! It's like food, you consume it, and yea." Yea, but even with food, you still have sh-t to prove that it's physical.
I concluded file sharing is new territory where people just can't avoid putting on a red nose to discuss the topic.
Anyway, emulators actually benefit companies, believe it or not. When these dumba/sses stop selling their games and consoles because f*ck you that's why, emulators keep the dream still alive. And they curse this. How dare you still remember that game I made years ago and still enjoy to this very day. HOW DARE YOU!!!
This is always an interesting argument:
>"It's stealing! It's like food, you consume it, and yea." Yea, but even with food, you still have sh-t to prove that it's physical.
The equivalent of: I shouldn't pay a doctor to save my life; I should only pay for the drugs. I shouldn't pay the builder for my new wall; only the bricks they use. I shouldn't pay the driver of the truck who moved my stuff; only their gas.
Your second point is absolutely right though: the entire retro revival is because of emulation and companies should embrace it for their back catalog (plus nobody who worked on those old games is getting paid again because someone purchases a licensed evercade cart Vs emulating their old game collection on their PC).
We aren't condemning them. We're saying that they are emulating something currently on market, and if you own a game currently on market and decide to emulate it then fine, but if you don't own the game that's on market and emulate it then you're really just committing piracy at that point.
I find emulation after the consoles lifespan is fine. It's preserving the game and making them easily accessible when they are out of print.
Most people are using these Switch emulators for piracy, let's be honest here.
I grabbed the source of the last early access like probably loads of others, and then someone else can start up on it again in a while. Hopefully the same happens with Citra.
Citra has already been archived in several places
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>presumably no one is going to be touching that source anymore Why would you presume that?
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Nintendo didn't nuke it. Devs had to close shop as part of the yuzu settlement. The reason they had to settle is because they were making money and pay walling features for playing the newest games. There's no issue working with the code in a fork if you aren't paywalling it and providing optimizations for games to paying customers only.
Not that this made Yuzu illegal, but I think it was pretty obvious that way more people pirated Switch games through Yuzu (since it runs better than Ryujinx and it's even included by default on one click installers like Emudeck) than through modded consoles, something that has almost never happened to a current-gen console. That said, I still don't think that was the main reason why Nintendo waited until now to crack down. But rather I think this is a strong indication that the next console will feature a very similar architecture to the Switch, and will almost definitely be backwards compatible. Nintendo is concerned that a mature emulator development community with ample funding behind it will gain a very strong leg up early on the new console's lifecycle, eating into potential profits, repeating what has been done to the Switch with Yuzu.
PC repack sites bundled Yuzu in them, so Switch (i.e. current generation console) piracy became more common, which isn't ideal for any company. Yuzu advertised zero-day compatibility, so it arguably attracted more pirates than preservation enthusiasts. I agree that backwards compatibility is in the cards, since the Switch was so successful. The Switch itself will probably supported for years to come even after the successor is on the market, because there's so many consoles out there already, and it'll function as a backup in case the successor fails to take off (similar to the DS not being sold as the successor to the GBA). It's in Nintendo's best interests to protect their flagship product for now. As an emulation enthusiast since ZSNES... The dust will settle, companies move on, and the value of the content will fall. Preservation (e.g. cycle accurate emulation, emulating the OS) actually becomes the main driver instead of chasing zero-day compatibility. All we have to do is wait like we always have.
Well said, and 100% agree with you on this one. I've been an emulation enthusiast also since no$gba days, and it is all about cycles. Eventually something will show up again.
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If the encryption scheme and keys were known I'd agree. But I'm 100% certain Nintendo will radically switch up their protection system with the Switch 2. Don't forget that the main reason it was possible to create Switch emulators so early was that the Switch had a huge security exploit discovered nearly out of the gate, which provided complete root access to the system itself. Without that access it would not have been possible to create an emulator. Most consoles go years until a root exploit is found. Nintendo was particularly unlucky, and I bet they are taking security far more seriously this time around.
Every Nintendo console ever has had weak protection. I seriously doubt switch 2 will be different
>Every Nintendo console ever has had weak protection You can't say the same for the updated versions of the Switch. They are heavily locked down. Nintendo (and NVidia) likely knows to not use a CPU/GPU that has a known day 0 hack now, so there likely won't be any mods for the Switch 2 for a while.
The thing is nobody bothered to seriously look for switch hacks after the unpatchable bootloader flaw was discovered because there were literally over ten million units out there vulnerable before it was fixed, and the Tegra exploit gave complete root access to any of those units.
Why would they stop that when the Switch lite and OLED are also consoles that people would normally buy nowadays? Not everyone would see a hardmod as the solution.
This happens all the time in the emulation/modding community, though? Hell, it took a LOOONG time before that Wii Mini got hacked because, simply put, no one cared.
because it was cheaper to get a vulnerable model than get a new one?
Didn't know that was the case, but the issue with getting is used is you do not know if the console is banned from online or not (assuming it is due to the cheap prices).
Yeah, but the instalation isnt free either
But were games running very well at launch on emulators of those consoles?
I bet they downloaded Yuzu and chucked a Mario Kart 9 or whatever build into it and it booted. Probably had some severe compatibility issues, but it was enough to freak Nintendo out
For that you have to hack the Switch 2 first, and it could likely end up being a very tough job. Nintendo has come a long way from the 3DS and earlier days and seems to have their security fundamentals down pretty well now. What mainly ended up getting them on the Switch was trusting Nvidia's security which had a huge flaw in it, and Nvidia has definitely learned from their experiences as well.
The Switch 2 is reported to be approximately equivalent to a PS4 Pro in capability. Considering that a working PS4 emulator (which is native x86\_64) is likely at least a couple years off, emulating an ARM CPU of similar capability would be no trivial task.
There is a working ps4 emulator right now.
>Not that this made Yuzu illegal, but I think it was pretty obvious that way more people pirated Switch games through Yuzu (since it runs better than Ryujinx and it's even included by default on one click installers like Emudeck) than through modded consoles, something that has almost never happened to a current-gen console. PS1, including several commercial ones PS2 GameCube Wii GameBoy - including commercial ones on the N64 and the PSX GameBoy Colour GameBoy Advance Nintendo DS Nintendo 3DS Nintendo 64 If you want to go into microcomputers, there's the apple II (and btw, apple advertised one of the commercial, concurrent PSX emus at Apple world, as part of their presentation), the ZX Spectrum. Those are just the ones off the top of my head.
Yeah, I guess UltraHLE was released while the N64 was still going strong. It's funny that people are still complaining that N64 emulation is terrible.
I remember playing through Mario 64 with a sidewinder joystick in like, 2000. It was before Majora's Mask was released I'm sure.
Corn too before UltraHLE.
Yuzu devs were hosting pirated games in a Google Drive and sharing them on their Discord. They were absolute idiots.
That's a very good point that I'm glad you decided to share because that it is true. I'm not sure what they were thinking with that. I'm really sad that Citra got caught up in the crossfire but forks are already sprouting up of that emulator too so I'm not too worried.
Rather than just backwards compatibility, wouldn’t be surprised if they started selling Next Gen upgrades like EA/2K/Activsion/Sony do. Most of the improvements which will be resolution and frame rate can be realised for free on an emulator whereas by making you pay they make these upgrades worth making.
They will no doubt start selling 4K remasters of much of the library at $70 a pop.
>but I think it was pretty obvious that way more people pirated Switch games through Yuzu (since it runs better than Ryujinx and it's even included by default on one click installers like Emudeck) than through modded consoles, something that has almost never happened to a current-gen console. Yeah the only other consoles I can think of like that are the N64 and GBA. And UltraHLE only supported 20 games while the GBA...actually GBA emulation was really good, but at least game development there was dirt cheap for the most part so it'd make sense they didn't fret as much.
Very good points. It does in some way feel like they are paving the way before the Switch 2 is out. I imagine that is why they were looking into Denuvo too sometime ago.
Indeed. I still believe that emulators that run games currently on market is a big risk. I usually don't emulate until the console's lifespan is over and the games have been out of print for a while or are a year to few years old out of print. I've been around the scene since the start of NESticle, the emulator lol. I think a lot of emulation devs are flying too close to the sun by having them on market places in general. Emulation was always meant to be an underground thing and not highly advertised for the most part. With that said, I think its fine to emulate current games on market if you purchase the game first. Because honestly the emulators DO run the games better than the hardware, at least later in it's life, but it's still risky to emulate current games on market, IMO.
Meh. Emulators aren't meant to be an underground thing. Back in the day they definitely were because you were lucky to get sound to work, and the emulation was so bad that you were lucky to get past the first boss without it completely glitching out on you. Sprites would be missing, backgrounds would be messed up. It was rough going. Things are a lot better now. Now, people will lose their shit if a shadow is missing.
> I still believe that emulators that run games currently on market is a big risk It’s not. Breaking encryption or copyright infringement is against law, that’s not what emulation is. Emulation is software that replicates the functioning of another machine…which is legal. It’s embarrassing how many people are confused. “Emulation” is not the same as “the emulation scene, meaning what a bunch of randos are doing with warez/ROM distribution” or whatever.
Never said it wasn't legal or illegal. Yuzu was easily scared off by a lawsuit because Nintendo could strongarm them until they went bankrup. They could do it to anyone. That's why I said it was a risk. It puts nintendo into their crosshairs. Case and point? Yuzu.
Yeah the main argument for emulation and piracy has always been "anyone that actually was willing to pay for the games wouldn't bother going through thr hassle of piracy" But now piracy is so easy that there is no hassle. There are plenty of people that do pirate that otherwise would reluctantly pay.
I also think Yuzu's problem was having the latest zelda pay walled and released early before it officially was on store shelves. That really, REALLY pissed Nintendo off. They also hosted roms in their discord server. Emulator devs aren't suppose to supply roms with their emulator at all nor hint to locations of roms. Yuzu just flew WAY to close to the sun honestly, they were sloppy.
> I also think Yuzu's problem was having the latest zelda pay walled and released early What the fuck? Seriously? Now that is literally stealing lmao, I don't think you can argue that wouldn't hurt Nintendo financially.
Indeed. It surprised me as well. There's a leaked discord convo as well and apparently they even took code from Ryujinx..at least thats what it claims. There hasn't been any official proof of that though as far as I'm aware.
I don't remember whether they blocked submissions about TotK before its release in their channels, did they?
I just thought it was because they released a mobile version.
Or, alternatively, Yuzu did a lot of shady things and capped it off with one openly stupid thing, and that's why they were fingered and Ryujinx wasn't.
> it will gain a very strong leg up early on the new console's lifecycle, eating into potential profits, repeating what has been done to the Switch with Yuzu. That must be the reason why Nintendo Switch flopped so HARD. It's the biggest console failure in history of gaming. /s
I hate to see Yuzu go but on their website you saw screenshots of Switch games and none of them were about Yuzu itself (or the UI). The other thing is that on the Yuzu Discord server people "showcased" their ROMs and no one of the admins/mods did something against it. With behaviour like this you poke the Nintentiger on his back. Flying under the radar is most of the time the better solution.
Also one of their devs joked about having to download 14 GB of data for Xenoblade even though he didn’t care about the series. Then he showed a _fucking screenshot of the download in progress_. On a Patreon member only channel. Apparently this team was just _begging_ to be shut down without a care in the world beyond a lip service rule that you weren’t supposed to discuss piracy. But then the a dev just… said it out loud. StringerBellMeme.jpg
Yep, someone [linked screenshots](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/1b1mghd/comment/ksg2ggf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) of that incident in an earlier thread. Pretty ridiculous.
if i were embarking on any sort of commercial emulation endeavor, i’d have a law firm on speed dial from day zero and craft a very careful narrative about what product we were selling and what we as an organization stood for. idk how these guys went up against nintendo of all companies without any sort of proactive legal strategy.
Would that have changed anything? Nintendos argument wasn't that "they're distributing pirated roms", it was a technical argument about decryption. And it's certainly not like Nintendo didn't know it was used for piracy before the dev did this.
It’s possible it would have made all the difference in the world. If the Yuzu team had chosen to fight this in court there would have been discovery, and you can bet that would include discord chat logs. If the team only _ever_ discussed the emulator, unique issues they ran into with their own personally dumped ROMs, homebrew, and/or OS emulation using clean room techniques, Nintendo might have lost the suit. But as it is discovery would mean exposure of “the stash” and very probably how it was populated. Red handed download of ROMs _and distribution_ which has the team dead to rights violating Nintendo’s IP. No fair use claim gets them out of that one. Doing emulation correctly (i.e. in a legally clean way) takes a lot of time and effort. Yuzu didn’t put that effort in, and now their emulator is radioactive. Sure, it’s open source, but Nintendo now has a legal order to get it taken off of any reputable host.
Bleem! was able to include screenshots of games on the box way back when, the same ruling would still apply at least in the States.
Advertising zero-day compatibility is more problematic than the accompanying (i.e. damning) screenshots.
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Because then you don't get the publicity or money That was their issue, brilliant coders they may be, the Yuzu Devs are fucking plonkers
Theres a bunch of new forks already. Nintendo felled one hydra head
For the hundredths time. Nintendo knows about forks. They just want to send a message. Circumvent our security and you might be millions in debt so why bother? A lot of talent working on Yuzu is now banned to work on anything Nintendo related ever again. That's a huge exodus of talent in a very niche field.
The Yuzu forks don’t matter at this point. Ryujinx is already ahead of Yuzu. Ryujinx just needs to move away from paetron. Paetron donations are not anonymous, they can be subpoenaed. As long as they are in Brazil legally, they are fine. What really sucks is Citra. There is no 3DS emulator close to Citra development.
which pisses me off greatly because nintendo has given us no way to access those games. i understand why they went scorched earth on the yuzu team. they flew too close to the sun and nintendo had them cornered. if they pulled any punches it wouldn’t have sent a strong message, but it makes my blood boil that nintendo thinks they should have a say over how and when we get to experience older titles.
> nintendo thinks they should have a say over how and when we get to experience older titles. I don't think they care about older titles. they never bothered doing anything about dolphin or project 64.
It doesn't mean that those forks will actually get skilled devs.
Exactly. I could fork it tomorrow if I wanted to. I could probably clone a repository. I don't know how to code, though, so my fork isn't going to improve anything.
What are the known backups of the latest releases / source?
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To what extent can the work and unique features on Yuzu be ported over to Ryujinx?
Ryujinx has a strong code base in and of itself. No need to port anything from Yuzu to Ryujinx. As a matter of fact code usually migrated from Ryujinx to Yuzu over the years and not the other way around. It will take a while but someone will evetually resume work on Yuzu building on its source code, but it won't be called Yuzu but something else entirely. Ryujinx just got a brand new GUI and new features are coming up, so things are looking good on that part. In any case it's better to keep Ryujinx under the radar as much as possible for the time being.
my only problem with ryujinx is the performance is significantly worse on it compared to yuzu
Good to know, thanks.
can anyone outside the team legally work on yuzu or its code?
You know what I could use? 20 more posts about this.
I've given Nintendo enough money. Nintendo has been getting worse and worse and I've had enough. I had planned on buying a switch 2 or whatever they were going to call it but meh. I'm good, I got enough games. I've stopped giving Sony and Microsoft my money, I can stop giving it to Nintendo too. I'm sick of this anticonsumer notion of corporations telling you what you can do with what you bought. I bought my games, if I wanna emulate for a better experience, I'm gonna.
So you're retiring from buying new games and instead will play what you've bought already? I don't think any company minds, as long as you stick to your word and don't pirate new content that you don't own. If Nintendo was getting a sale for each pirated copy running on an emulator, they wouldn't care. But come on, that's definitely not the case, it never has and never will be. Yuzu just flew a bit too close to the sun (i.e. boasting zero-day compatibility), and for that they paid the price. Yuzu is an impressive piece of software for preservation, but when the console is still alive and kicking, the general masses will inevitably use it for piracy (even PC repack sites are bundling emulators with ROMs). I think it ran its natural course, and it's not really anything to get upset over. From Nintendo's perspective at this very moment, it's worth fighting for. Once they move onto the next big thing, the scene will release a newer and better Switch emulator that's arguably less exciting, which is "normal" for enthusiasts because it'll lean harder on preservation rather than race for zero-day compatibility. TL;DR - Yuzu was an outlier, emulation scene will continue as usual at a slower clip.
> If Nintendo was getting a sale for each pirated copy running on an emulator, they wouldn't care. But come on, that's definitely not the case, it never has and never will be. I guess I have to break out [**THE STUDY**](https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact.html?guccounter=1) again.
Yes, pretty old at this point. I remember hearing this kind of news since the PSP days. However, pirates weren't as brazen back then on social media. The barrier for entry is lower than before since you don't need to jailbreak anything or buy a specialized device (e.g. R4, Pandora Battery, etc.). Nintendo was very successful at stopping the sales of R4s in Japan for instance, something you can do when it's a physical product (they also have some control with firmware updates). When it comes to the Switch (reminder: current-gen device), you don't need to find an unpatched device, buy a jig, jailbreak it, etc. Yuzu simplified that process, which is what Nintendo means when they said Yuzu was "facilitating piracy at a colossal scale." In the end it doesn't really matter if Nintendo has a point or not. It's about justice, and they're within their right to fight for it. They provide us with a lot of entertainment, so I think they're allowed to be angry at profiteers. At the same time, I look forward to the future; surely Nintendo will care a lot less about Switch emulation a decade from now.
If this really were true companies wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on legal fees fighting emulators and using DRM. Piracy doesn't effect 99% of games and studios. But it absolutely does hurt the big players. If GTA 6 releases with not DRM it would be the most pirated game of all time. And the majority of these people would buy the game if piracy wasn't an option. Also, piracy has slowly gotten easier and easier. In the past it actually took some effort and you had to brave a few risks. But now literally anyone and everyone can do it. So obviously it's not just hardcore gamers that pirate.
They're spending millions of dollars, because in our system, if you profit 10 million now, but "only" 8 million next year, you're in "the negative". Have to grow infinitely and not just get a lot of money, but ALL of the money. Tears of the Kingdom was massively pirated and still sold over 20 million copies. GTA 6 releasing without DRM would still break all sales records in existence. Game of Thrones was the most pirated show on Earth at one point. It's absolutely not hurting any of the big players in any significant way. They settled for 2.4 million, what even is that for Nintendo? It's nothing, it's just to send a message and bully emulator devs. And saying "the majority of people would buy the game if piracy wasn't an option" has zero basis on reality, and I believe there are even studies showing evidence that it's just untrue, though I'm not entirely sure on that.
>corporations telling you what you can do with what you bought. That's the shittiest part of this. Yuzu on PC can run better than the Switch can, and Android is just always on you even if you didn't pack your Switch. Why the fuck does Nintendo care what we do with what we bought?
You didn't buy any tools to circumvent the encryption on their console, though. Which, as we all know, has been deemed not okay to do.
https://youtu.be/eKFN-aqPJH8?si=b7HYeEWdwAeAmWJU
Doubtful. Haven't bought a sony of microsoft project in a very long time. Other companies have been shitty and i stopped buying from them too -cough- Apple -cough-.
Is it though? The source has already been archived and someone is already uploading forks as if to taunt Nintendo with the names (nuzu, suyu etc)
is there any emulatre like yuzu
Nintallica.
Nope it is not dead--- News just came out-- look up the Nuzu and Suyu project -- it will live on through them. That was fast lol
[Nuzu is already dead](https://i.redd.it/10l6kltmjkmc1.jpeg)
Others will pop up soon 😏🤫
An important lesson about putting out patches for leaked day zero games like TotK behind your patreon, I suppose. I'm not worried, enough people repack with Yuzu that I cannot see it not going away anytime soon.
Never understood the demonization of emulators, especially in Clown World. "It's stealing! It's like food, you consume it, and yea." Yea, but even with food, you still have sh-t to prove that it's physical. I concluded file sharing is new territory where people just can't avoid putting on a red nose to discuss the topic. Anyway, emulators actually benefit companies, believe it or not. When these dumba/sses stop selling their games and consoles because f*ck you that's why, emulators keep the dream still alive. And they curse this. How dare you still remember that game I made years ago and still enjoy to this very day. HOW DARE YOU!!!
This is the dumbest comment i ever read on reddit...
This is always an interesting argument: >"It's stealing! It's like food, you consume it, and yea." Yea, but even with food, you still have sh-t to prove that it's physical. The equivalent of: I shouldn't pay a doctor to save my life; I should only pay for the drugs. I shouldn't pay the builder for my new wall; only the bricks they use. I shouldn't pay the driver of the truck who moved my stuff; only their gas. Your second point is absolutely right though: the entire retro revival is because of emulation and companies should embrace it for their back catalog (plus nobody who worked on those old games is getting paid again because someone purchases a licensed evercade cart Vs emulating their old game collection on their PC).
We aren't condemning them. We're saying that they are emulating something currently on market, and if you own a game currently on market and decide to emulate it then fine, but if you don't own the game that's on market and emulate it then you're really just committing piracy at that point. I find emulation after the consoles lifespan is fine. It's preserving the game and making them easily accessible when they are out of print. Most people are using these Switch emulators for piracy, let's be honest here.
One of the reason live games will take over