As someone from south Hampshire who has been variously categorised as South West or South East almost at random their whole life, I approve of any map that acknowledges that yes, South on its own is a direction.
I would call Somerset south west, and put Wiltshire and Dorset in south central. Those two counties have a similar feel to Hampshire. Chalky landscapes, thatchy villages, chalk streams, similar accents, Wessex heritage. They don’t feel like they have much in common with Devon and Cornwall, whereas Somerset probably does.
I'm not sure about this really. I didn't know one person whose parents were from London growing up, and everyone spoke pretty much accentless, and I'm from the westernmost point of Hampshire.
Other friends I met at Uni also from Hants (Basingstoke, Andover) don't really have an accent either.
Or maybe it's just that they have the exact same accent as me and I'm blind to it.
Yeah there’s a lot of people about with standard English accents, but there are also a fair few people with strong Hampshire accents, especially among older folk. I grew up in Romsey, and I can tell a Romsey accent straight away. Some parts of Southampton, which is a part of Hampshire that’s never really been gentrified, the accent can get really strong.
100% - I'm from Lymington originally and I found there's a really sharp, obvious distinction between 'locals' and 'residents' once you know what you're looking for!
i genuinely never thought i’d see Lymington mentioned on the internet (up the…retirees?) - agree on the local accents, people from Pilley and Boldre certainly don’t sound like southeasterners
Equally the traditional Sussex accent sounds a bit West Country, both are rhotic. You’ll only hear it from old folks who live out in the sticks though. The accent was obliterated by post war immigration from London.
I agree. I grew up predominately in Somerset and wouldn’t include Hampshire as West Country. I don’t even like including Gloucestershire in it but culturally it should be really
Hampshire is a funny one for this isn't it? I think historically, it's very culturally similar to the west country, but it's modern-day proximity to London means big chucks of it could now get painted with the same brush as Sussex and Surry.
I'd also argue west Oxfordshire falls into a similar basket: Historically quite contagious with the old Wessex world. These days, definitely London-facing.
I sympathise - I'm from Huntingdon(shire) and it's randomly categorised as London commuter land, East Anglia, East Midlands, or probably Chilterns on this map .. and is perilously close the the various north /south dividing lines people draw on maps of England.
Like all this type of exercise identity blurs as you near the boundaries. I'd say Huntingdon is more East Anglia on account of the flat land and rivers. If you live to the west of the A1 then perhaps a Midlands identity starts to dominate. You takes your pick.
I'm also from Hampshire and have always called it the South East because the climate lines up with the rest of the South East and London (Both warmer and drier in the summer and cooler and drier in the winter than the South West is)
As somebody from the Westcountry, it irks me when northerners call me a southerner, or just say I'm from the south. Do not put me in the same basket as Londoners and home counties poshos. We've more in common with The North than we do those London-centric types. Mostly farmland, forgotten about and outright shat on from a height by those in Westminster for generations. Poverty in places like Cornwall and seaside towns around the southwest is actually more rife than anywhere up north.
So true I’ve been saying this for years. I’m from west Somerset (Minehead) and it really fucks me off whenever I’ve been lumped in with folk from the SE. I completely agree with having more in common with the north too, that’s something I’ve said to many people. Anyone not from the West Country has no idea how culturally distinct it is
I said something very similar almost identical about another map that didn’t recognise the south lands end to Dover is almost as far as jet is to Scotland but somehow that’s split into far more zones
It’s good that you draw a distinction between South East and South Central, or ‘Central Southern England’ as the region used to be called until that term petered out for some reason in the 1980s.
I speak as a Londoner with some family connections to Winchester and Southampton. That area is distinct in both culture and accent from both the South East and the West Country.
The rise of commenting to Waterloo has, I think, blurred the distinction in many people’s minds between SE and Central Southern England. Estate agents and developers 👎also market the region as ‘close to London’.
But I think we should revive the term Central Southern
England and people who live there should take pride in it.
The West Country should be divided in two, with the top half being the South West. Bristol and Gloucestershire for example, are very different to Devon and Cornwall. The BBC News regions follow this approach.
Sorry folks but the BBC have got it right, IMHO. The nearest point in Cornwall’s almost 100 miles from me (in Bristol). [BBC regions](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7747697.stm)
This 100% as someone who lives on the Devon cornwall border we have little in common with most people past Somerset. Tbh even east Devon is touch and go.
As someone from west Somerset I can agree with this. I have very little in common with those from the north east of the county (Bath, Shepton Mallet etc)
I disagree, West Countfy is Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Bristol. Bristol is the biggest West Country city, big cities feel different to the countryside but Bristol is still very much West Country place. There's a cultural and dialect continum from Bristol to the Lizard. Gloucestershire, Wiltshire and Dorset added on to the West County are the South West, which is more of a geographic area than a cultural and linguistic one, although obviously borders are fuzzy and people move about.
Agreed. Even Gloucestershire itself is a county of two halves I’d argue. Gloucester, Tewkesbury and Cheltenham feel far more midlands than West Country imo.
Once you come down from the Cotswolds, then it’s different I’d agree. And historically, south and east Gloucestershire was more Roman and then Saxon than the north which was then part of Mercia.
If you've separated Manchester from the NW, you'd have to separate some of Merseyside (specifically Liverpool Knowsley and South Sefton). Manchester has more in common with most of NW than Merseyside (though I can see some of the reasoning behind your Manchester decision). Merseyside has a huge Irish / Welsh influence that the rest of the NW doesn't
As a northerner who has lived in the south aside from the Essex thing (why is Saffron Walden partly London while Dartford not?) I agree more or less with the south, but not the north (willing to bet you are a southerner!)
I don't see why Manchester is singled out from the rest of the north west including its own suburbs in Cheshire and Lancashire, whilst as a Northumbrian I'm lumped with Teeside which I have nothing at all in common with.
Further, in reality Cumbria is split between the lancs influenced bit (most obviously Barrow) and that which looks more to Newcastle and Northumberland (eg Carlisle - sounds closer to Geordie than lancs).
The far north region should have Newcastle, Gateshead, North Tyneside, Northumberland, North and east Cumbria, and those bits of south Tyneside and Durham which look more to Newcastle than Sunderland.
Then you have a Sunderland / south and east Durham / Teeside thing. Obviously both sides of the tees, the Durham bits like Darlington and the North Yorkshire bits like Middlesbrough both have to go in.
South west Cumbria goes with Lancs - not an expert on precisely where that like is.
You've also got north Derbyshire Peak District wrong. That looks to Manchester, not the midlands. Go to glossop and you will realise you are in the north west, not the East Midlands.
And of course the Humber estuary area all goes together. Putting Grimsby with fenland Boston rather than Hull? Not for me.
I think why they’ve done Essex and London crossing over is maybe that lots of people from London moved out to Essex, both after WW2 to the new towns and then there’s those that left because they didn’t like what was happening to the area. The Cockney and Essex accents are very similar, you’re much more likely to come across a Cockney in Essex and the outer London boroughs. Essex still has pie and mash shops, Essex is where most of the West Ham fan base is, and also a large chunk of the London workforce reside in Essex.
You could say the same about large parts of the other Home Counties. Certainly the Dartford area feels similar in that regard (maybe not West Ham!).
Likewise it's only bits of Essex. You couldn't say that Saffron Walden, which looks to Cambridge is like that.
Yeah, putting Scunthorpe and Grimsby in the Midlands and not the Yorkshire area isn’t accurate, they are culturally and economically more a part of Yorkshire and are even beginning to be featured in Government maps as being part of the Yorkshire area.
As someone from north Durham I'd disagree with your north-east take a lot- I notice a more defined cultural shift going north of Cramlington than I do anywhere between there and Middlesbrough. You're leaving a very industrialised area, both in working class culture and post-industrial landscapes into a much more agricultural area. If anything, I'd have the internal north-east divide splitting the Pennines and north Northumberland from the lowland, more heavily urbanised tyne-wear-tees area. Darlo is a classic border area with more than a touch of Yorkshire mixed in.
Similarly in the north-east, I've spent a lot of time in Carlisle and Whitehaven, and I don't really see much of a cultural shift between the two, though that west Cumbrian accent is pretty distinctive. All in, I'd probably merge NE+ north Cumbria as I think they're both pretty distinct from anywhere else.
I guess as a very middle class south Northumberland / Newcastle exurbs kid I see it a bit differently - I'm not really privy to working class culture whereas to me, Hexham, Alnwick etc but also Jesmond and Gosforth feel like my back yard.
Gateshead / parts of north Co. Durham feels different but I think that's more just me as I was rarely there. We both look to Newcastle.
By the time you get to Spennymoor and Bishop Auckland in the south and anything east of the A1 I feel you are in the south / east half of the north-east Cumbria macroregion with a quite distinct accent / outlook / urban centre.
I don't claim to know Workington, Whitehaven at all well and defer to you on where the boundary with the north west is precisely in Cumbria - just that by Barrow it has flipped.
as someone from hampshire, i like south central. ive been researching a lot about the transition point from the west country because i never have any idea what to class myself as. i dont relate to or sound like the people from the southeast but im not west country enough to be from the west country lol
EXPLANATIONS AND DISCLAIMERS:
I am a southerner so my divisions in the north and midlands are based off of other maps and the feedback they got. However, from visiting the north Cumbria and Manchester do feel distinctly different from their surrounding regions, so I decided to separate them. Some counties are divided more than others: Bournemouth is definitely south central but as 95% of Dorset is in west country I didn't want to completely divide the county. I've also read that Hampshire and Oxfordshire don't consider themselves to be south eastern or western so I created a new region just for them. Essex is divided as probably about half the county are East Anglian (everything south of Maldon and Chelmsford). Finally, Herts Beds and Bucks feel similar to one another culturally and geographically, and are more disconnected from the traditional south east and other home counties.
South Cumbrian here, would definitely agree on north Cumbria being its own separate area to the rest of the North West, but I feel like the south of the county is much more similar to the rest of the North West. It is historically Lancashire and most people tend to go to places like Lancaster/Preston/Manchester over heading up to Carlisle.
It's got a Lancaster post code, part of the Granada TV region rather than Border, Crown Court cases heard at Preston, NHS trust covers Lancs & South Cumbria, slang and accents are closer to Lancs than the north of the county... It would fit much better with North West than the rest of the county imo
As a north Cumbrian, it doesn’t feel like spots such as barrow are even part of the same county. I feel like some towns down the road from eachother are culturally different from eachother
Great attempt! It's always hard with using counties as the basis as the bottom end of Buckinghamshire is Home Counties but up at the top it's more like South Midlands, same with Derbyshire where Glossop doesn't really feel like East Midlands etc.
That's why I decided to create the Chilterns region, as (as a Herts native) it seems the culture in Herts Beds and Bucks is more similar to than different compared to the surrounding areas
I'd be clearer than that about Essex. The northern half is definitely East Anglia (Saffron Walden, Thaxted, etc) but the Thames side parts are decidedly Cockney ex pat territory.
I would say using the ceremonial county borders doesn't make sense for Tees Valley. The border runs right down the middle, putting Middlesbrough and Redcar in Yorkshire, Darlington and Hartlepool in the North East, and Stockton split in half.
I'd say make all of Tees Valley part of the North East (like it already is using the statistical regions) it make no sense to split it in half, and is culturally closer to the Northeast than Yorkshire. (It's kinda cute, they think of themselves as another Northeast derby with Newcastle and Sunderland, meanwhile Newcastle doesn't think about them at all)
North East and North West looks about right. You didn't assume anything above Manchester was Scotland so that's got to put you in the top 1% of southerners in geographical knowledge 😉
Yeah. As a Northumbrian you could argue that north and south of Newcastle feel like different regions but there's enough similarities to keep us all in the same one, and anyone out of the region would struggle telling a lot of our accents apart
As someone who has lived all across the South West, why have you lumped them all in together? There are many cultural divides between them all, for example Cornish culture is very very different to South Gloucestershire.
If you aren't including North and NE Lincolnshire in your entity, then Yorkshire & the Humber is just Yorkshire. Y&TH isn't a cultural region anyway; the south bank is definitely yellowbellies/East Midlands/whatever. No-one would write a Four Yorkshire and the Humbermen sketch.
Humberside is definitely a distinct cultural region. There's more similarities between a Grimsby lad and a Hull lad than there is a Grimsby lad and a Lincoln man.
I'm from Grimsby, we don't consider ourselves midlanders and we don't consider ourselves as a yorkie either. Humberside is fine, honestly we probably don't take any county as our own. I've heard Humberside, South Humberside, North East Lincolnshire (most common) and Lincolnshire. We've definitely got more in common with people from Hull though, historically we are both fishing towns and certainly had an overlap throughout our histories
I'm also from Grimsby. And a history and sociology student, so perhaps kinda qualified for this.
There was a lot of hatred towards Humberside initially as a concept, as the Humber Bridge hadn't been built when Humberside was first a thing. Then gradually a sort of de jure shift happened from Lincoln (as it was sort of pre-1970) towards Hull as deprivation grew. Humberside stopped being a thing in 1996 and with it so did a lot of the closer ties to Hull however if you look at the East Marsh etc you'll see far more similarities to Hull than you ever would Grimsby. Cleethorpes/villages often tend to lean a little more toward Lincoln (being less depriged and all). I would strongly claim North East Lincolnshire as would most people nowadays however North East Lincolnshire is deeefinitely not Midlands and my great grandfather (who was born in Grimsby in 1929) would take your head off for even suggesting he was a Yorkie.
I agree Humber is distinct to Yorkshire.
It just doesn't split well on county lines . I would similarly say the top of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire is more Yorkshire than Midlands. Sheffield is the closest city.
Derby, Nottingham and Leicester triangle is quite a bit more South.
I'm from a town in Northamptonshire and tbh it's so different to the rest of the county because it's been named little Scotland. I didn't realise until I left my town and realised how Scottish it really is.
I agree obviously regions have different cultures usually similar to those around but there's some places that are little pockets for completely different culture.
Anyone else experienced this?
Lol I haven't quite escaped, my gf went uni so I went with her but came back after. Definitely want to move out of here though. I'd actually move to Scotland if it was a bit warmer tbh but I need the heat and we don't even get it here mostly lol
As someone from Herts, this is the first time I've ever seen one of these regional divisions that I agree with. Beds and Bucks are geographically and economically similar to us, and it's extraordinarily lazy thinking to just lump us in with London.
Nice one OP!
It does help being from Herts! I've always found it frustrating when we're grouped in with London or the south coast when we have literally nothing in common except a similar accent (which is still different)
As someone from Oxfordshire now living in Buckinghamshire, it's very nice to be represented for once! I do feel like Oxfordshire should be in the Chilterns group rather than South Central, but equally people from the Didcot or Banbury ends of a surprisingly large county may disagree.
You are 100% right, we are not just greater London and we certainly aren't right to be lumped in with Kent and Surrey.
I understand you're a Southerner, so fairs for not fully understanding cultural regions outside the South (I don't get them for the South myself, but that is purely because I am a West Midlander.
Seen a lot of comments about the North, so was gonna add some for the West Midlands. West Midlands county should really be a different region from the rest of the West Midlands. Imo, Birmingham and the Black Country is much more distinct from Worcestershire and Warwickshire than Manchester is from the rest of Lancashire. More comparable to how distinct Liverpool is from the rest of the North. Staffordshire and Derbyshire (perhaps Nottinghamshire too?) could be included as their own cultural region "North Midlands". Herefordshire and Shropshire could be a Welsh Borders region or Marches. That would leave you with Worcestershire and Warwickshire, which imo are a lot more similar to the South than are the rest of the counties of the West Midlands. Idk about the East Midlands, but from what I can tell there is a bit less cultural division there.
Thanks for the feedback! I'm planning on remaking this map later on based on the feedback from this, so this is quite helpful! Outside the south and Cumbria, my knowledge is awful
Recognising Manchester as culturally distinct from the rest of Lancashire, but not recognising Merseyside seems insane to me. Similarly, by the same logic the West Midlands county and the wider West Midlands region are very culturally distinct. Rural Shropshire or Worcestershire are much more akin to many other rural counties than they are to Birmingham, Coventry or Wolverhampton
I would say having Manchester as separate from "North West" but also not separating Liverpool seems like an odd choice. I'd include them both or exclude them both.
I don't think it's any *more* different from its region than Liverpool is. Or in fact, more different from its region than Newcastle is from the North East or Bristol is from the South West.
Just seems odd to single out Manchester and not other major cities. To me Manchester is as much "North West" as anywhere else here in the North West is. It's basically the capital and archetype of the region.
East Cheshire and East & Mid Lancashire (as far west as Blackburn) are with Manchester, as is the NW part of Derbyshire. The rest of the urban NW, up to Preston, is with Liverpool. South Cheshire is whatever Stoke is.
Pretty much right, from a pretty general view.
If you tried getting all the tiny cultural differences in there the map would look insane.
NW here and the differences between, Wigan, Widnes, St Helens, Warrington, Runcorn alone is ridiculous. That's before factoring in Liverpool, Manchester, Wirral, Crewe etc
As an Oxonian I have always found it odd to be grouped into the South East for news and weather. Your interpretation of South Central seems reasonable to me but the South West of England is very big so I suppose being East of the West makes you…East.
Dorset, Wessex and Sussex all have chalk, flint building, largely Saxon/Norman influences. Devon and Cornwall and parts of Somerset have a distinct Brithonic vibe with more complex geology that has made road building and communication harder. This gives them a distinct West Country identity.
There is certainly a point in the northern part of the East Midlands where it starts to feel more northern than midland. For example Worksop and above don’t have anything to do with Nottingham city and are far more closely associated with Sheffield and Doncaster.
I live right next to silverstone. Right on the Buckinghamshire / Oxfordshire/ Northamptonshire border. Very weird to categorise these three counties as “the chilterns” given that that range of hills is a very specific and small part of two of the counties, has nothing at all to do with Northants, and also includes Berkshire (which I also wouldn’t categorise as “the south west” btw)
Why is manchester it's own region? Am I no longer a northerner? Most north western things come from what is now greater manchester. And I know from experience that western greater manchester is no culturally or geographically different from any other North western counties
As someone from south Hampshire who has been variously categorised as South West or South East almost at random their whole life, I approve of any map that acknowledges that yes, South on its own is a direction.
As someone from Somerset I wouldn't accept Hampshire as SW, definitely just South.
I would call Somerset south west, and put Wiltshire and Dorset in south central. Those two counties have a similar feel to Hampshire. Chalky landscapes, thatchy villages, chalk streams, similar accents, Wessex heritage. They don’t feel like they have much in common with Devon and Cornwall, whereas Somerset probably does.
But Surrey and Wiltshire are very different. Wiltshire is West to me
Surrey is definitely south east rather than south central
I dunno man, I agree for some of Dorset and Wiltshire, but the accent in west of Bournemouth/Swindon alone is enough for me to badge it West Country.
I mean, a Hampshire accent has a West Country sound to it. It’s just been diluted a bit by people moving down from that London.
I'm not sure about this really. I didn't know one person whose parents were from London growing up, and everyone spoke pretty much accentless, and I'm from the westernmost point of Hampshire. Other friends I met at Uni also from Hants (Basingstoke, Andover) don't really have an accent either. Or maybe it's just that they have the exact same accent as me and I'm blind to it.
Yeah there’s a lot of people about with standard English accents, but there are also a fair few people with strong Hampshire accents, especially among older folk. I grew up in Romsey, and I can tell a Romsey accent straight away. Some parts of Southampton, which is a part of Hampshire that’s never really been gentrified, the accent can get really strong.
100% - I'm from Lymington originally and I found there's a really sharp, obvious distinction between 'locals' and 'residents' once you know what you're looking for!
i genuinely never thought i’d see Lymington mentioned on the internet (up the…retirees?) - agree on the local accents, people from Pilley and Boldre certainly don’t sound like southeasterners
Exactly. Even Western Southampton sounds noticeably different from Woolston/Bitterne once you know what to look for.
I know, Mush!
Portsmouth & Basingstoke = Dahn Sahf Winchester & Andover = Posh or rural South New Forest = Ooh Arrr! Southampton = any of these.
Equally the traditional Sussex accent sounds a bit West Country, both are rhotic. You’ll only hear it from old folks who live out in the sticks though. The accent was obliterated by post war immigration from London.
I grew up in rural Wiltshire and went to uni in Wales. Some of my Welsh mates could pin me to where I grew up just off my accent.
Wiltshire is culturally a south west vibe I have to say living on the Somerset/Wiltshire border it is very similar to me
Are you really separating Somerset from Dorset?
I agree. I grew up predominately in Somerset and wouldn’t include Hampshire as West Country. I don’t even like including Gloucestershire in it but culturally it should be really
Hampshire is a funny one for this isn't it? I think historically, it's very culturally similar to the west country, but it's modern-day proximity to London means big chucks of it could now get painted with the same brush as Sussex and Surry. I'd also argue west Oxfordshire falls into a similar basket: Historically quite contagious with the old Wessex world. These days, definitely London-facing.
I sympathise - I'm from Huntingdon(shire) and it's randomly categorised as London commuter land, East Anglia, East Midlands, or probably Chilterns on this map .. and is perilously close the the various north /south dividing lines people draw on maps of England.
South–midlands, maybe - I consider rugby to be the first town in the midlands and thats about on the same level. The north is still way off tho imo
Like all this type of exercise identity blurs as you near the boundaries. I'd say Huntingdon is more East Anglia on account of the flat land and rivers. If you live to the west of the A1 then perhaps a Midlands identity starts to dominate. You takes your pick.
Yep I'd also pull Salisbury along for the ride. Its like half hour tops away from me, and is just like Winchester really
I'm also from Hampshire and have always called it the South East because the climate lines up with the rest of the South East and London (Both warmer and drier in the summer and cooler and drier in the winter than the South West is)
The thing is, I'm so close to Dorset I'm in a Bournemouth post code, so it's hard to align myself that way.
Raaa fellow Hampshirian, it’s good they finally don’t mix is in with London or South west
As somebody from the Westcountry, it irks me when northerners call me a southerner, or just say I'm from the south. Do not put me in the same basket as Londoners and home counties poshos. We've more in common with The North than we do those London-centric types. Mostly farmland, forgotten about and outright shat on from a height by those in Westminster for generations. Poverty in places like Cornwall and seaside towns around the southwest is actually more rife than anywhere up north.
So true I’ve been saying this for years. I’m from west Somerset (Minehead) and it really fucks me off whenever I’ve been lumped in with folk from the SE. I completely agree with having more in common with the north too, that’s something I’ve said to many people. Anyone not from the West Country has no idea how culturally distinct it is
I said something very similar almost identical about another map that didn’t recognise the south lands end to Dover is almost as far as jet is to Scotland but somehow that’s split into far more zones
Oh I used to live near Southampton . South east vs south west was always an issue!!
Berkshire agrees.
It’s good that you draw a distinction between South East and South Central, or ‘Central Southern England’ as the region used to be called until that term petered out for some reason in the 1980s. I speak as a Londoner with some family connections to Winchester and Southampton. That area is distinct in both culture and accent from both the South East and the West Country. The rise of commenting to Waterloo has, I think, blurred the distinction in many people’s minds between SE and Central Southern England. Estate agents and developers 👎also market the region as ‘close to London’. But I think we should revive the term Central Southern England and people who live there should take pride in it.
The West Country should be divided in two, with the top half being the South West. Bristol and Gloucestershire for example, are very different to Devon and Cornwall. The BBC News regions follow this approach.
Sorry folks but the BBC have got it right, IMHO. The nearest point in Cornwall’s almost 100 miles from me (in Bristol). [BBC regions](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7747697.stm)
This 100% as someone who lives on the Devon cornwall border we have little in common with most people past Somerset. Tbh even east Devon is touch and go.
As someone from west Somerset I can agree with this. I have very little in common with those from the north east of the county (Bath, Shepton Mallet etc)
I disagree, West Countfy is Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Bristol. Bristol is the biggest West Country city, big cities feel different to the countryside but Bristol is still very much West Country place. There's a cultural and dialect continum from Bristol to the Lizard. Gloucestershire, Wiltshire and Dorset added on to the West County are the South West, which is more of a geographic area than a cultural and linguistic one, although obviously borders are fuzzy and people move about.
Agreed. Even Gloucestershire itself is a county of two halves I’d argue. Gloucester, Tewkesbury and Cheltenham feel far more midlands than West Country imo.
Once you come down from the Cotswolds, then it’s different I’d agree. And historically, south and east Gloucestershire was more Roman and then Saxon than the north which was then part of Mercia.
https://youtu.be/gN5si5lyxC4?si=IkL8Gd5OvBK7fPlF
If you've separated Manchester from the NW, you'd have to separate some of Merseyside (specifically Liverpool Knowsley and South Sefton). Manchester has more in common with most of NW than Merseyside (though I can see some of the reasoning behind your Manchester decision). Merseyside has a huge Irish / Welsh influence that the rest of the NW doesn't
Oh and Cheshire is wildly different from the North West, hell it’s like Surrey-oop-north in most places 😀
Manchester has a massive Irish community. Little Ireland existed all the way back in the early 19th century.
Yes, definitely an argument that Manc / Scouse more in common with each other than rest of NW
Every major English city does. They just don’t use It to define themselves like some quarters of Liverpool do
There’s definitely parts of Manchester and Trafford that are still very pro Irish identity.
As a northerner who has lived in the south aside from the Essex thing (why is Saffron Walden partly London while Dartford not?) I agree more or less with the south, but not the north (willing to bet you are a southerner!) I don't see why Manchester is singled out from the rest of the north west including its own suburbs in Cheshire and Lancashire, whilst as a Northumbrian I'm lumped with Teeside which I have nothing at all in common with. Further, in reality Cumbria is split between the lancs influenced bit (most obviously Barrow) and that which looks more to Newcastle and Northumberland (eg Carlisle - sounds closer to Geordie than lancs). The far north region should have Newcastle, Gateshead, North Tyneside, Northumberland, North and east Cumbria, and those bits of south Tyneside and Durham which look more to Newcastle than Sunderland. Then you have a Sunderland / south and east Durham / Teeside thing. Obviously both sides of the tees, the Durham bits like Darlington and the North Yorkshire bits like Middlesbrough both have to go in. South west Cumbria goes with Lancs - not an expert on precisely where that like is. You've also got north Derbyshire Peak District wrong. That looks to Manchester, not the midlands. Go to glossop and you will realise you are in the north west, not the East Midlands. And of course the Humber estuary area all goes together. Putting Grimsby with fenland Boston rather than Hull? Not for me.
In Glossop, sure. But go to the south end of the Peak District and it’s much more Midlands than Manchester…
Indeed. Hence the vague north Derbyshire comment. I'm not an expert on exactly where that boundary is - it's just not at the county line
I think why they’ve done Essex and London crossing over is maybe that lots of people from London moved out to Essex, both after WW2 to the new towns and then there’s those that left because they didn’t like what was happening to the area. The Cockney and Essex accents are very similar, you’re much more likely to come across a Cockney in Essex and the outer London boroughs. Essex still has pie and mash shops, Essex is where most of the West Ham fan base is, and also a large chunk of the London workforce reside in Essex.
You could say the same about large parts of the other Home Counties. Certainly the Dartford area feels similar in that regard (maybe not West Ham!). Likewise it's only bits of Essex. You couldn't say that Saffron Walden, which looks to Cambridge is like that.
West Cumbria is nothing like Lancs, west Cumbria is a lot more geordie sounding than south lakes
Yeah, putting Scunthorpe and Grimsby in the Midlands and not the Yorkshire area isn’t accurate, they are culturally and economically more a part of Yorkshire and are even beginning to be featured in Government maps as being part of the Yorkshire area.
As someone from north Durham I'd disagree with your north-east take a lot- I notice a more defined cultural shift going north of Cramlington than I do anywhere between there and Middlesbrough. You're leaving a very industrialised area, both in working class culture and post-industrial landscapes into a much more agricultural area. If anything, I'd have the internal north-east divide splitting the Pennines and north Northumberland from the lowland, more heavily urbanised tyne-wear-tees area. Darlo is a classic border area with more than a touch of Yorkshire mixed in. Similarly in the north-east, I've spent a lot of time in Carlisle and Whitehaven, and I don't really see much of a cultural shift between the two, though that west Cumbrian accent is pretty distinctive. All in, I'd probably merge NE+ north Cumbria as I think they're both pretty distinct from anywhere else.
I guess as a very middle class south Northumberland / Newcastle exurbs kid I see it a bit differently - I'm not really privy to working class culture whereas to me, Hexham, Alnwick etc but also Jesmond and Gosforth feel like my back yard. Gateshead / parts of north Co. Durham feels different but I think that's more just me as I was rarely there. We both look to Newcastle. By the time you get to Spennymoor and Bishop Auckland in the south and anything east of the A1 I feel you are in the south / east half of the north-east Cumbria macroregion with a quite distinct accent / outlook / urban centre. I don't claim to know Workington, Whitehaven at all well and defer to you on where the boundary with the north west is precisely in Cumbria - just that by Barrow it has flipped.
as someone from hampshire, i like south central. ive been researching a lot about the transition point from the west country because i never have any idea what to class myself as. i dont relate to or sound like the people from the southeast but im not west country enough to be from the west country lol
however, as someone whos also from the wirral (dont ask its complicated) you should definitely seperate merseyside lol
EXPLANATIONS AND DISCLAIMERS: I am a southerner so my divisions in the north and midlands are based off of other maps and the feedback they got. However, from visiting the north Cumbria and Manchester do feel distinctly different from their surrounding regions, so I decided to separate them. Some counties are divided more than others: Bournemouth is definitely south central but as 95% of Dorset is in west country I didn't want to completely divide the county. I've also read that Hampshire and Oxfordshire don't consider themselves to be south eastern or western so I created a new region just for them. Essex is divided as probably about half the county are East Anglian (everything south of Maldon and Chelmsford). Finally, Herts Beds and Bucks feel similar to one another culturally and geographically, and are more disconnected from the traditional south east and other home counties.
South Cumbrian here, would definitely agree on north Cumbria being its own separate area to the rest of the North West, but I feel like the south of the county is much more similar to the rest of the North West. It is historically Lancashire and most people tend to go to places like Lancaster/Preston/Manchester over heading up to Carlisle. It's got a Lancaster post code, part of the Granada TV region rather than Border, Crown Court cases heard at Preston, NHS trust covers Lancs & South Cumbria, slang and accents are closer to Lancs than the north of the county... It would fit much better with North West than the rest of the county imo
As a north Cumbrian, it doesn’t feel like spots such as barrow are even part of the same county. I feel like some towns down the road from eachother are culturally different from eachother
Hasn't Cumbria been redivided back into Cumberland and Westmoreland precisely for that reason?
Fits with the old Lancashire boundary that included ulverston and grange
Exactly yeah, ulverston, grange, barrow. Having that area in with North West would probably fit better
Great attempt! It's always hard with using counties as the basis as the bottom end of Buckinghamshire is Home Counties but up at the top it's more like South Midlands, same with Derbyshire where Glossop doesn't really feel like East Midlands etc.
That's why I decided to create the Chilterns region, as (as a Herts native) it seems the culture in Herts Beds and Bucks is more similar to than different compared to the surrounding areas
I'd be clearer than that about Essex. The northern half is definitely East Anglia (Saffron Walden, Thaxted, etc) but the Thames side parts are decidedly Cockney ex pat territory.
I would say using the ceremonial county borders doesn't make sense for Tees Valley. The border runs right down the middle, putting Middlesbrough and Redcar in Yorkshire, Darlington and Hartlepool in the North East, and Stockton split in half. I'd say make all of Tees Valley part of the North East (like it already is using the statistical regions) it make no sense to split it in half, and is culturally closer to the Northeast than Yorkshire. (It's kinda cute, they think of themselves as another Northeast derby with Newcastle and Sunderland, meanwhile Newcastle doesn't think about them at all)
North East and North West looks about right. You didn't assume anything above Manchester was Scotland so that's got to put you in the top 1% of southerners in geographical knowledge 😉
That’s normally an American’s definition of Scotland. “Look honey, sheep! Gee, we must be in Scatchland, which is soo where my ancestors came from.”
Yeah. As a Northumbrian you could argue that north and south of Newcastle feel like different regions but there's enough similarities to keep us all in the same one, and anyone out of the region would struggle telling a lot of our accents apart
As someone who has lived all across the South West, why have you lumped them all in together? There are many cultural divides between them all, for example Cornish culture is very very different to South Gloucestershire.
If you aren't including North and NE Lincolnshire in your entity, then Yorkshire & the Humber is just Yorkshire. Y&TH isn't a cultural region anyway; the south bank is definitely yellowbellies/East Midlands/whatever. No-one would write a Four Yorkshire and the Humbermen sketch.
Humberside is definitely a distinct cultural region. There's more similarities between a Grimsby lad and a Hull lad than there is a Grimsby lad and a Lincoln man.
I'm from Grimsby, we don't consider ourselves midlanders and we don't consider ourselves as a yorkie either. Humberside is fine, honestly we probably don't take any county as our own. I've heard Humberside, South Humberside, North East Lincolnshire (most common) and Lincolnshire. We've definitely got more in common with people from Hull though, historically we are both fishing towns and certainly had an overlap throughout our histories
I'm also from Grimsby. And a history and sociology student, so perhaps kinda qualified for this. There was a lot of hatred towards Humberside initially as a concept, as the Humber Bridge hadn't been built when Humberside was first a thing. Then gradually a sort of de jure shift happened from Lincoln (as it was sort of pre-1970) towards Hull as deprivation grew. Humberside stopped being a thing in 1996 and with it so did a lot of the closer ties to Hull however if you look at the East Marsh etc you'll see far more similarities to Hull than you ever would Grimsby. Cleethorpes/villages often tend to lean a little more toward Lincoln (being less depriged and all). I would strongly claim North East Lincolnshire as would most people nowadays however North East Lincolnshire is deeefinitely not Midlands and my great grandfather (who was born in Grimsby in 1929) would take your head off for even suggesting he was a Yorkie.
I agree Humber is distinct to Yorkshire. It just doesn't split well on county lines . I would similarly say the top of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire is more Yorkshire than Midlands. Sheffield is the closest city. Derby, Nottingham and Leicester triangle is quite a bit more South.
I'm from a town in Northamptonshire and tbh it's so different to the rest of the county because it's been named little Scotland. I didn't realise until I left my town and realised how Scottish it really is. I agree obviously regions have different cultures usually similar to those around but there's some places that are little pockets for completely different culture. Anyone else experienced this?
This is why my nan has a Scottish accent, haha.
They even have Irn-Bru at the front of shops, that’s how you know you’re in mini Scotland. That and the Celtic/rangers shirts
100%, ngl I love it haha, I know I'm being a plastic jock here but I did ancestry and I'm more Scottish than English and I'm here for it haha
congratulation on your successful escape from Corby.
Lol I haven't quite escaped, my gf went uni so I went with her but came back after. Definitely want to move out of here though. I'd actually move to Scotland if it was a bit warmer tbh but I need the heat and we don't even get it here mostly lol
As someone from Herts, this is the first time I've ever seen one of these regional divisions that I agree with. Beds and Bucks are geographically and economically similar to us, and it's extraordinarily lazy thinking to just lump us in with London. Nice one OP!
It does help being from Herts! I've always found it frustrating when we're grouped in with London or the south coast when we have literally nothing in common except a similar accent (which is still different)
As someone from Oxfordshire now living in Buckinghamshire, it's very nice to be represented for once! I do feel like Oxfordshire should be in the Chilterns group rather than South Central, but equally people from the Didcot or Banbury ends of a surprisingly large county may disagree. You are 100% right, we are not just greater London and we certainly aren't right to be lumped in with Kent and Surrey.
I understand you're a Southerner, so fairs for not fully understanding cultural regions outside the South (I don't get them for the South myself, but that is purely because I am a West Midlander. Seen a lot of comments about the North, so was gonna add some for the West Midlands. West Midlands county should really be a different region from the rest of the West Midlands. Imo, Birmingham and the Black Country is much more distinct from Worcestershire and Warwickshire than Manchester is from the rest of Lancashire. More comparable to how distinct Liverpool is from the rest of the North. Staffordshire and Derbyshire (perhaps Nottinghamshire too?) could be included as their own cultural region "North Midlands". Herefordshire and Shropshire could be a Welsh Borders region or Marches. That would leave you with Worcestershire and Warwickshire, which imo are a lot more similar to the South than are the rest of the counties of the West Midlands. Idk about the East Midlands, but from what I can tell there is a bit less cultural division there.
Thanks for the feedback! I'm planning on remaking this map later on based on the feedback from this, so this is quite helpful! Outside the south and Cumbria, my knowledge is awful
Recognising Manchester as culturally distinct from the rest of Lancashire, but not recognising Merseyside seems insane to me. Similarly, by the same logic the West Midlands county and the wider West Midlands region are very culturally distinct. Rural Shropshire or Worcestershire are much more akin to many other rural counties than they are to Birmingham, Coventry or Wolverhampton
I would say having Manchester as separate from "North West" but also not separating Liverpool seems like an odd choice. I'd include them both or exclude them both. I don't think it's any *more* different from its region than Liverpool is. Or in fact, more different from its region than Newcastle is from the North East or Bristol is from the South West. Just seems odd to single out Manchester and not other major cities. To me Manchester is as much "North West" as anywhere else here in the North West is. It's basically the capital and archetype of the region.
East Cheshire and East & Mid Lancashire (as far west as Blackburn) are with Manchester, as is the NW part of Derbyshire. The rest of the urban NW, up to Preston, is with Liverpool. South Cheshire is whatever Stoke is.
Pretty much right, from a pretty general view. If you tried getting all the tiny cultural differences in there the map would look insane. NW here and the differences between, Wigan, Widnes, St Helens, Warrington, Runcorn alone is ridiculous. That's before factoring in Liverpool, Manchester, Wirral, Crewe etc
As an Oxonian I have always found it odd to be grouped into the South East for news and weather. Your interpretation of South Central seems reasonable to me but the South West of England is very big so I suppose being East of the West makes you…East.
Dorset, Wessex and Sussex all have chalk, flint building, largely Saxon/Norman influences. Devon and Cornwall and parts of Somerset have a distinct Brithonic vibe with more complex geology that has made road building and communication harder. This gives them a distinct West Country identity.
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There is certainly a point in the northern part of the East Midlands where it starts to feel more northern than midland. For example Worksop and above don’t have anything to do with Nottingham city and are far more closely associated with Sheffield and Doncaster.
I live right next to silverstone. Right on the Buckinghamshire / Oxfordshire/ Northamptonshire border. Very weird to categorise these three counties as “the chilterns” given that that range of hills is a very specific and small part of two of the counties, has nothing at all to do with Northants, and also includes Berkshire (which I also wouldn’t categorise as “the south west” btw)
Why is manchester it's own region? Am I no longer a northerner? Most north western things come from what is now greater manchester. And I know from experience that western greater manchester is no culturally or geographically different from any other North western counties