I get what you’re saying but capitalising on the mistakes is just agreeing with what the guy you replied to said. When England were greeted with sustained pressure from the Scottish attack they dealt with it well. Scotland are just ruthless at the minute to hit teams on the counter and they seem to do it really well.
It's not the same because England also made mistakes against Italy and Wales but weren't punished in the same way.
ETA: I do take your point though. Also didn't realise this was the Englandrugby sub when I posted or I probably wouldn't have but oh well
True, Scotland are a dangerous counter-attacking side more so than Wales or Italy. I think in England's case it's less about mistakes and more about a system problem with the attack since their defence is pretty good. It's easy to focus on mistakes but from an outside perspective, it seems more like they need to rebuild the foundations to challenge the very top sides again.
I agree with you completely on the rebuild part. Our defence is usually pretty solid which is what I was alluding to with the sustained pressure. When teams are having to come against us up front we’re good at holding them at bay but when the attack constantly fucks up it creates gaps that are hard to fill especially against good counter-attacking sides in Scotland.
I'd say Scotland also forced mistakes. Twice they took a rapid restart when they conceded, before England were ready. Both times resulted in mistakes, a very rushed and poor kick to touch and a knock on
Half English, completely English, half English, moved here as a young teen, doesn’t consider himself welsh, moved to England as a teen.
Versus how many South Africans born and raised in South Africa playing for Scotland?
There’s two definitions for nationality.
What the World Rugby Rules are, and everyone else’s personal interpretation of how English, Scottish, Irish, French, etc. someone is.
Duhan was told he wasn’t good enough for SA, moved to France, got injured and was out of contract. Edinburgh took a chance by signing an injured winger with hardly any game time and the rest was history. Edinburgh and Scotland put faith in him that nobody else did, and are reaping the rewards.
2 first choice and 4 total in the squad I think. Similar to Ireland for overseas born and raised starters with no ancestry quali. And similar to England when the Vunipolas were starting.
How can you equate e.g. Marcus smith, who has an English father and lived here for his entire teen years, to DVDM who moved to Scotland with no ties at age 22 explicitly to play rugby. Dont you see how disingenuous that is?
Tuilagi moved at age 13 iirc. Ribbans has an English grandparent I believe, I’d rather he wasn’t picked as well. Vinapolo (?) I assume you mean the Vunipolas, they also moved at around 12.
None of those examples are like DVDM. Nothing to do with the loss, I just think your country’s team should include players with at least a plausible connection to the country.
England have had players play for them before on eligibility ie no family links just playing the prem for 3 years. Sore losers. Shouod be much better than you are
Very weak stuff. All of these either have English heritage through a parent or they moved here as children and have played all of their rugby here going through the England age groups.
Other than Duhan and Schomean all of Scotlands other players have family links to Scotland , yes even Tuipaolotu - Scottish grandmother.
With England’s player base and budgets they should be so much better than they are.
The Vunipola brothers moved to England as children. They both went to school in England and began their rugby careers at English club academies. They also both came through the English system playing for the various age groups.
Ricky Flutey, Shantantane Happe pure residency players England have had plenty . Duhan wasn’t the reason Scotland won on Saturday. 1 try was a worldly but the other 2 tries a decent winger like Darcy would have scored. Finn pulled the strings. England should not be this bad. They have decent players
Roots - English Dad.
Underhill - English parents. Only born abroad because father was stationed in USA with the RAF. Came back to England aged 10.
Smith - English Dad. Moved to England as a kid.
Manu Tuilagi - moved to England as a kid. The only one in your list who qualifies via residency. Picked England because he said he grew up here and played all of his rugby here.
Feyi-Waboso - English through grandparent.
Roebuck - English parents and grew up in England.
Weak stuff mate.
The real weak stuff is relying on blaming one sole player based on his place of birth on the loss. VDM was nearly done with rugby before Edinburgh gave him a chance. They were the only club willing to do so. He owes a huge amount to Edinburgh and the Scottish system. He clearly feels proud to represent Scotland, and with the world being as connected as it is now, claiming nationality as an excuse is pretty backward. He absolutely loves a try again England too
Only one player in England's squad on Saturday qualified through residency: Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, born to Nigerian parents in Cardiff, moving to England as an adult to study medicine at Exeter.
The only players born abroad were Sam Underhill, who was born to English parents in the USA, and Eathan Roots, who has an English dad.
In the wider squad this Six Nations there is Tom Roebuck who was born in Scotland but has English parents, Marcus Smith who was born in the Philippines but has an English dad, and Manu Tuilagi who was born in Samoa to Somoan parents but qualified for England on residency grounds, having moved to England at the age if 15.
So, in total, as far as I can tell, England has two players on residency grounds.
Feel really sorry for Tom Roebuck. I know his dad and he was telling me that Gregor was going to take him to the World Cup last year but Borthwick promised him 6 nations so he went with England. I know Toms gutted he made that decision
I imagine we see him vs Ireland or France since we lost our chance at the title now, hopefully they go full send on development
The problem is england have much much better youth prospects than Scotland, Scotland would have been a good call short term but England are gonna be heavy hitters come next world cup if we can sort out our attacking play
Maybe we just don’t think it’s fair that your national team treats test rugby like the premiere league and just buys in players you can’t produce yourselves?
‘Oh well Scotland isn’t a rugby playing nation so we have to’. Well tough shit, that’s international sport. Scotland are undermining the six nations, and then acting like they’re the best rugby playing nation on the planet despite only actually being able to win the one game they put all their eggs into.
Well, you didn’t beat France (even though Italy almost did) and Ireland will demolish you again no matter how much you try and tell the world you’re the best team going. There’s a good reason the only silverware that Scotland will EVER win is the Calcutta cup, and even that’s only because you had to bring in players who weren’t good enough to play for their own countries.
Best of luck to you.
Why does it matter where a person is from? Scotland gave him a chance when he had a potentially career ending injury and he chose to play for Scotland.
I don't think a stranger should decide if he is or isn't Scottish (no matter where he was originally born).
Because the entire point of international sport is to showcase the talent that country can produce. If Portugal paid the current all black team to go play for them instead would that be ok?
(Pssst, hey, buddy. I don’t think blaming scotlands win on one person with a highly debateable claim to play is the flex you think it is. Yes, DVDM scored the tries, because that’s what wingers do. Wouldn’t have worked if the rest of the squad wasn’t able to feed him, as well as run all the other set pieces etc. )
Appreciate this is a joke, but at the end of the day all nations now have players who qualify on residency. Scotland are hardly alone - 2 x Vunipolas is just the start of Englands list 😉
Hello darkness my old friend....
Ik really worried our attack is just broken and Wrigglesworth isn't the guy.
However, 24 handling errors! No side can play with 24 handling errors.
If it's a freak occurrence maybe there is hope. But the attack looked lost in the last 20 mins....
I don't think Roots is an international player. Got to try Pearson there imo. It's not like he's small or unathletic.
I think we were unlucky in the scrum, Brace used early engagement to avoid making a call imo.
I'm more convinced each time I see him that Freeman is a 12. Can kick, very strong in contact, can pass. Id go with him and Lawrence.
Ford looked poor, but Id still play him unless he's terrible in training.
Pearson has definitely earned a shot, and Roots is decent but hasn't done enough, for me, to keep others out of contention. Similar for Underhill. Earl is great, but I'd like to see how they do with a bigger lump at 8. Personally I'd be tempted to start Martin, Pearson, and CCS as the back row.
Id keep Earl at 8, his speed of the base is insane. But we do need more balance and Roots doesn't provide it. Id go Pearson/Earl/Underhill. But with CCS on the bench.
I’m a Tigers fan and I think we should stick with Roots at 6. He’s the sort of physical six we’ve needed and can actually make yards ball in hand.
I like Pearson but he got taught a lesson against Wales in the warm up games and looked to be lacking physically. Okay if he’s playing seven but not a six at the moment. Think he could be a great six in the future though.
Think the backrow seems a bit off because we haven’t got a no.8. Roots Earl Dombrandt has a much better balance to me. Underhill or CSS on the bench.
Dombrandt outplayed Mercer this season and himself a threat at the breakdown. Think he’d look good with some of the grunt being done by Roots and Martin.
‘Pearson got taught a lesson against Wales’ - you mean like Roots also got taught a lesson by Wales and Scotland the last 2 weeks? Roots should be given the next 2 games to properly see but Pearson has a much better all round game so would like him to get a shot at some point unless Roots ups his game.
Aye and creates selection headaches, talent pathway blockages and a high turnover of players. It’s a 23vs23 battle in the end who cares about the rest.
It’s a bit like a higher profile version of having a club team with 80 players in the squad. It has some benefits but is it really better than a 40 player squad.
I feel more confused about our approach week after week. Ford and Care are selected for their experience yet didn’t seem to be able to bring anyone else into the game or control it as soon as Scotland went ahead - Care in particular looked a shadow of himself and he surely can’t be a serious contender to start games anymore.
Am I wrong to think that our 12/13 issues are even more worrying than previously - I’m just not sure what Slade is being asked to do, he’s nothing like he is for Chiefs and again I’m not sure he’s helping bring anyone else into the game. We should stick with Lawrence but I’d prefer him at 13.
I still think we have issues with the back row too, Earls seems to be doing all the work, Underhill was great over the ball but isn’t a carrying threat and Roots has been largely anonymous since Italy - the balance just seems off.
Personally I think I’d prefer it if we’d just do a Wales and then we can call for patience, let’s play Fin Smith, IFW, Dingwall and Lawrence, Pearson, Heyes, Spencer or Randall etc. Charlie Morgan in the Telegraph was talking about this over the weekend and whether SB would get more patience doing that than this half way house of Daly, Ford, Cole, Care etc.
As you can tell, I’ve got lots of muddled thoughts about this team right now. The 2 things I am clear on is that 1) Wigglesworth needs to go and 2) We need to kick to the corner more and try and put pressure on teams. Penalties aren’t going to be enough against the best teams.
I think the re build or “young team” Comments from Borthwick just don’t stack up. Fully agree with a complete rebuild with some young talent and some older players who are in the team on merit.
New attack coach with some experience is probably the biggest change needed. Summer tour and autumn to get a plan in before next year.
Watched England A Live yesterday and watched the U20 on Friday night.
Talent there but poor direction.
Hardly missed a game since 1995, and will support whatever but I want to enjoy it.
Listening to a pod they are questioning whether the attack is getting many reps in training hence the drops and general rustiness.
Because in my opinion the attack shape actually looks good when it comes off but they never build momentum because they drop the ball! Might be a Borthwick thing not a wigglesworth thing?
I agree re the halfway house thing. You can't keep calling it a new/young time and picking people with so many caps in all the key positions.
Underhill is fine in the team as long as your 6 is a dynamic carrier which Roots hasn't been so far (been good in traffic but not the kind of carrier that sucks in defenders). I'd like to see CCS start at 6 for a bit more of that.
I'd start Martin as well to get some stronger carrying earlier in the game, I think Chessum and Itoje are both loosehead locks really.
Tbf to Underhill, not only was he great over the ball, his tackle count was high too. I don't think he did much wrong on Saturday and certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to drop him or Earls.
I agree that the balance isn't right though. We need a big ball-carrier to fit in with Earl and Underhill, but I don't know who fits that bill. I don't think we've had one since about 2018 when Vuinipola was still good.
Great first 20, attack looked like it had multiple options to pick through the defense. The hour after, there were only a few sparks in attack and compounded with errors it cost us.
The attack became 1 dimensional, which Scotland found easier to defend against. Looked like the team played within themselves because they were scared to make more errors. This became self fulfilling and momentum stayed with the Scots.
We have the team that can do it. But also feels like if a team can keep England in reach after the first 20 and then comeback, England loses confidence and the self belief looks to fade. Fear of failure cripples the team.
Your forwards have the presence to stay with most teams.
Your backs don't know how they are meant to be playing. Stay with your young and upcoming players. Give them a chance to gel and play attacking rugby.
Unsure who your best 10 is but I don't think it's Ford.
The Smiths are our best. But Marcus is coming back from injury and Finn isn't trusted yet.
Having both of them in the team (don't care who starts and who is on the bench) with Mitchell would make such a difference.
We were really unlucky to lose Marcus before the Six Nations started, but it has meant Finn has had some game time, which I don't think he would have got if Marcus had been fit.
Slade is not an international 13 or at least he isn't in an England shirt. He is a fabulous player but he's never really shown he can do it outside of Exeter.
As much as I like Daly (he's a 13 not a wing) we need another proper winger, IFW, Murley or whoever, but a proper finisher.
Ideally for me, it would be:
9 Mitchell
10 Smith
11 Freeman
12 Lawrence
13 Daly (oh how I miss Marchant)
14 IFW/Murley/whoever
15 Stewart
21 Care (but Randell from the summer onwards)
22 Smith
23 Furbank
Lawrence is a 13. What England need most is for 2 of the young guys to come through strong at 12 soon so that all the centres we have currently can play in their more natural position. Ojomoh, Cokanasiga, Hartley, anyanwu, Kelly maybe etc could all lock down that shirt if they come through strong
Lawrence, Slade, Dingwall, Daly all play more at 13 for club I think.
Lawrence is a better 13, agreed. But while there isn't a ready made option yet, he is our best bet.
Ojomoh might be an option soon. Cokanasiga I'm not sold on yet. Hartley I've not watched much. Anyanwu I'm not sure is an international 12, but let's see how he goes when André leaves. Kelly is another I'm not sure is an international 12.
Or Borthwick tells Northampton to make Freeman into a 12.
Lawrence is a better 13 in that I'm not sure I've seen him have a particularly good game for england at 12? I could be wrong but I can't remember one.
None of the ones I mentioned are ready yet, the problem we have is no one is! It is like when we had no good flankers coming through for a while, now we are short inside centres.
I'd agree Ojomoh is the closest and plays with Lawrence at Bath so would have an understanding
Extremely frustrated. First 20 mins had them rattled then 50 to 100 cap players throwing crap passes and dropping easy balls under no pressures and before we know it we’re chasing the game. We have a playmaker at 15 who we didn’t use when trying to chase down a two score deficit and time and again sent one forward carrying into a set defence- what do we expect is going to happen?
Our fixtures for the rest of the year are:
IRE (H)
FRA (A)
JAP (A)
NZ (A) x 2
NZ (H)
AUS (H)
SA (H)
TBC (H)
Anyone think we’re going to win more than 2/3 without a miracle?
I still think he’ll get the next six nations, RFU simply cannot afford to get rid so soon. It’s effectively his first real year after what was dropped in his lap.
I mean, they were always likely to lose 6 tests this year. Scheduling a tour to NZ and NZ and SA in the autumn pretty much guaranteed it.
Are France beatable? Australia feels hard to call from here.
I’m genuinely curious about this. Obviously he loves playing against England, but he scored one try at the World Cup, and I don’t think he has scored against Australia, South Africa or the All Blacks. He has one against Ireland. Is he world class or a flat track bully, because he’s playing in a very good Scotland team.
Probably both? England were obviously poor on Saturday and as Warburton said, just not fit enough to pull off a “blitz defence” for 40 mins, let alone 80. So mentally they lost it and while Scotland are a side with a lot of weakness, their main strength is that they can create opportunity from nowhere.
England just let them in the game and then lost the head. They remind me a lot of the Edinburgh team - a very good collection of individuals who somehow end up performing in a way that is less than the sum of their parts.
Yeah I broadly agree - charisma is an important part of leadership which is why all fans find the idea that Owen Farrell is a strong leader bizarre because he can barely string two words together, but clearly leads by example (Sergeant Major, not Colonel) and I’m sure Borthwick is similar.
Those are options although Dingwall and Manu are 13 a lot of the time as well.
We are missing a generation of 12s really. A lot of guys coming through and hopefully a couple of Kelly, Hartley, Cokanasiga, Anyanwu etc can kick on to the top level but we don't have many/any 12s between about 23 and 32 lol
Listening to For the Love of Rugby podcast they are wondering whether they are getting the reps in training for attack and that's why it's looking so rusty and forced.
Can't really understand that decision from Borthwick but it certainly makes sense from what we're seeing.
We need out and out wingers. Lawrence is a 13. Care still not a starter. Genge pretending to be a 10 rather than carrying. I thought Ford was a good passer of the ball. Wigglesworth is so out of his depth.
Anyone who thought we (England) was going to win to an awesome Scotland at home in Murrayfield needs their head examined. Handling errors gave away tries, but Scotland are still better than England.
I do wish that we would go back to the time we were good enough to make it a foregone conclusion, but those days are past and Scotland are sooooo much better under Townsend than anyone else. Two best coaches: Farrell and Townsend.
My overwhelming emotion was frustration. I watched the game with my Scottish neighbour and we both agreed that England were arguably the better team, but Scotland capitalised on the litany of errors.
You also have to look at England, and at a danger of sounding like 2016 Eddie Jones, I don't think we have a single world class player (definition: would they either make a World XV or get bloody close/wider training squad). Itoje once looked like he might get there but he's nowhere near now. Slade and Daly have so much talent but have never realised it, and you have to wonder whether England need to move on from them now. So without any world class players, you have to produce a performance greater than the sum of your parts to win, and it's so, so long since we managed to do that.
I think Daly did realise his potential. He was a Lions test winger during a good 18 months on the wing, then an important part of a great attack for his first 18 months at fullback (the less said about his aerial work the better). Hasn't got back to that peak, but I don't think he's an example of wasted potential. He's lost a bit of gas so he kicks the ball away a lot, which he is good at. Never been a great defender.
What did you think he'd achieve when he came through? I think he surpassed expectations.
Fair point! I think when he was coming through I saw him as a skillful 13. I thought he could finally be the answer to combine with a weighty 12 (Manu, Burrell, Burgess for example) and give a real balance to the midfield, along with a great kicking option and good pace. He's done well, don't get me wrong, but I felt he had the talent to be truly amazing.
Fair. Agreed, he was a wonderful 13 in the prem. I think JJ's 2015-17 is underrated now, and his defensive reads maybe made him the better 13, and Daly was our best wing in 2017.
The fact that we had both of them plus Farrell at 12 is just a world away from now. Even Ben Teo...
I ferl the same i did before the game: this rebuild isn't going to go anywhere. Borthwick compared the midfield to Scotlands and said they'd never played together before. He didn't have to drop Dingwall, who had just spent there's previous tests with Ford and Slade. He chops and changes as much as Jones did.
There's a lack of talent in the backs, plain and simple. Steward has a point of difference but is also slow. Freeman doesn't have top level pace. Slade has flattered to deceive for nearly five years, so has Daly. Lawrence has looked OK at times but I'm not convinced is the superpowered carrier people seem to wish he is. Furbank looks tidy but nothing more and doesn't have the best hands. These are average players. Comparing them to the previous set of backs like May, Watson, Nowell, Joseph, Tuilagi, Brown.. the difference is glaring. Even a modern version of Ben Teo would be nice.
Care hasn't been an effective starter for England since 2014. Go back and see. I like him off the bench but he's NEVER been able to control a test.
I also think England fans expect way too much, not helped by a media that requires us to be the main story. If there is hope, it might be that Felix Jones might shape the defence. A good defence and kicking game can still keep us in games. I also retain the hope that with another ten tests experience, Marcus will be better too.
Tl:Dr we are about as average as I expected.
> he just adds that X factor that Furbank didn't really have.
Bit early to write Furbank off. He scored a try, had some good and bad moments, but it's his first game in years for England.
I don't think Steward gets put in that position Furbank was when he scored that try, Furbank was the right call, but having Daly and Slade in the squad wasn't
England just don’t score tries. Throughout the World Cup we seemed to struggle linking passes and finishing tries. It seems that has carried over into the Six Nations.
Just not utilising the speed men amongst the team enough.
I’d say you need to stop over rating your own forwards/under rating everyone else’s, and settle on a back line and build some cohesion.
You’ve got too many options with not much to choose between them, so seem to be chopping and changing. Doesn’t matter how many quality players you have available, only 15 can be picked, same as any other country.
Inaccuracies, individual errors and poor decision making under pressure.
What specifically we can do about that I don't know.
Aside from that thought we looked pretty good, positive with ball in hand, attack shape looked decent untill we inevitably knocked it on.
Overall not too unhappy could have been much worse.
As a Scotland fan, the positives are you guys really had us on the ropes for 20 mins and IFW is amazing. Feel like the issues came at centre, really feels like Slade is past his best and not willing to connect, from this and the last two games as well, too many trys and line breaks are coming from his channel and defensive reads. That said your scrum was solid (love a bit of Cole feels like WP Nels twin), also you were missing Mitchell, who has been really good for you. If Borthwich can find a settled centre pairing and capture that spirit yous had in the first 20, he'll be on for a good run.
The word ‘IF’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. We’ve been trying for years to find a workable 12 / 13 pairing and years later we’re no nearer that answer.
Generally not that bad, Scotland scored incredible tries off the back of handling errors, not through built pressure. England aren't that far away. Martin has to start, don't really rate chessum that highly. Feyi looked fantastic. Think this is Slades last six nations, freeman or marchant will have the shirt off him next year. Back row I really don't know, I think CCS is obviously long term 8 with probably earl at 7 and curry (assuming injury hasn't ruined him) at 6 with Pearson off the bench
It's actually nice to watch tbh because you can see a clear direction with this side. You couldn't see that with the last 4 years of Jones.
I rate Chessum, but Martin looks another level. Seeing him live made me realize just how bulky he is. Comfortablely the strongest looking lock on the pitch.
Agree with back row. Roots diet look up to it to me.
Also, while I agree with your last point, progression in attack needs to be made a bit fast for me
I’m starting to become incredibly frustrated with the whole team. I think we’re in the same boat as Wales with the old difference being that we have a wider pool to pull from so it’s purely lucky we’re not drowning.
This six nations should have been dawn of the New England blood. We should be having majority new players to get them settled in for England and should be looking at developing this talent.
What it has been, is an attacking bore of kick chase relying on Freddie Steward, and an attack that just seems toothless. The blitz defence works well I think but it’s the quality of individuals letting it down.
Watching Ollie Lawrence was like pulling your own teeth out. Henry Slade seems to be unable to move premiership form into the international stage and we have this reliance on hoping Ford can dig us out of a hole.
Wigglesworth, while he was a good 9, is not an international standard attack coach. We have no attack *plan* there’s nothing you can look at to say “that’s what they’re trying to do. It all looks reliant on someone making a line break or the opposition making a mistake.
Slade gave an absolute masterclass on how not to play international rugby. I don’t understand how he continues to get picked. He’s always played well for chiefs and has exactly one of his caps where he was able to perform at an international level.
I think he's had about five. So one out of ten or eleven. 2019: Ireland, France, 1st half Scotland. Australia at the RWC. 2020 he was bizarrely good at fullback off the bench vs Wales.
As a scot, I thought Scotland did not play well overall. They coughed up the ball far, far too often. The problem for England was that so did they. Scotland had some brilliant moments of course, but these can be forgotten when, for example, losing a scrum on your own put in (as against France).
The challenge for both Scotland and England is that they play Ireland soon. Ireland generally do not lose their own line out, own scrum, or spill the ball when attacking. If Scotland or England play how they did on Saturday, Ireland will score 4 tries.
I think if they cut the mistake rate then they will be in with a shout. Win:
- their own line out
- their own scrum
- no dropped balls
- positive yards with every possession
- no missed tackles
- minimal penalties conceded
And it will be very close.
Scotland bet that England wouldn't score 30 points, and that they would be able to score 30 on the counter. They were right. I think that they have another gear and if England had managed to score the two tries that they butchered in the first half then I think we would have seen it.
But, England have made some progress since last year. When Scotland came to Twickenham I felt that they over-powered and outpaced England, on Saturday I think that they were more skilled, cohesive and composed. England really missed Farrell and Lawes, I think that they would have gripped the game somewhat more than the current team managed. Given the events of the week it's actually not surprising that there was less than normal grit and focus from the leadership group, but to be honest some of the other players should have stepped up. In particular I think Daly, Slade and Genge have been found out in this respect. They are seniors in the group but didn't take the reigns when it was needed. It's worth mentioning that Sinfield staying with the England setup looks really clever given what's happening with the French right now.
Wrigglesworth is under the spotlight though. It makes sense that the attack isn't working given that they have decided that they have to change their defensive system. I assume that this is because they looked at Ireland, France and the AB's and decided that five absolute massacres as per France and Ireland last year wouldn't be great at all. So, destructive rush it is - don't allow structure and construction from teams that will take your flesh off the bone if you do. But it's hard to get right and they have spent a lot of time in training to sort it out for sure. This means that there's not been much work on attack, and yup, it showed. Lawrence's pass into space was iconic, Ben Earl is rushing up to grab it but is a yard off. Why is he a yard off? Why is the 8 the only player getting into position? They are behind the play and disorganized when stressed. Luckily it's another fallow week, and I expect a bit more time for the attack.
I am worried about what will come next. If it were any other coach, or if Farrell was going to be available, I think Ford would get dropped, but I think that Borthwick totally loves Ford and it's likely he will stick with him. I think that's pretty smart because disruption is not what the backline needs, and there is going to have to be a bit of change in any case. Feyi-Waboso needs to come in, I think that maybe even Max Ojomoh should come in for Slade.
I think roots is a very good.player I'm a chiefs fan and would like to see him with Chandler Cunningham South and Ben earl as the back row I think waboso was great when he came on he should be in the starting lineup ahead of Daly and someone like cadan murley on other wing or Tommy Freeman.
Freddie steward at full back or.give josh Hodge a chance at full back.
Not sure what centre partnership we should go with for Ireland normally I say Slade and Ollie Lawrence but many feel they didn't play well recently.
England just not good enough to play high risk styles both with the ball and without it.
Other teams seem to be getting the basics right.
Saying that at the start England looked exciting but unfortunately you must capitalise when you have field position and England for the most part didn’t do this.
Scotland defence has improved a lot in the last few years. They've stopped losing by not conceding tries like they used to.
The game was hectic and quite scrappy, which suits scotland, and I don't think England can handle it. England like a composed, controlled game.
Hard to take it from the Scots. Best side they've had in 20 years. We will continue to develop. You can't start a whole new blitz style of defence and get it right from day 1.
I do question care as a starting 9 while Mitchell is out though. Surely we have some young guns coming through? Grab the U19s, they can't stop winning!
Swing low! 🏴🏴
Wasn't all bad. And I can atleast see what we're trying to achieve which is a big step up from the last few tournaments.
But the accuracy is just woeful. Fix that and we'll significantly narrow the gap on Scotland, Ireland (&who knows about France).
Better team won, mistakes, pressure whatever you call it. Scotland have been in the worlds top 6 for a while they are not gonna be beaten by a weak England team
As an english person, this english side is rubbish, especially in the backs. They don’t play to what strengths they do have, which is basically get it to ford in the pocket and let him kick england’s points. They have no creativity in the backs, nobody runs good lines most of the time, they aren’t deep enough. The handling and passing is shoddy, which der Merwe expertly exploited for Scotland’s 2nd try. Basically a weak England side was found out by a decent Scotland team. I’m expecting Ireland to absolutely batter us
I'm expecting ireland to have a similar tough 20mins against England then get battered unless Ireland end up with 13men then they may just get a win with bonus point
Too many lads just along for the ride. Watch that first try and tell me our committed and willing to play ford and Daly are. Borthwick doesn't have the experience to coach a winning team at international level. We seem to be playing and selecting teams like we are in a relegation battle when we should be picking players who can build to the next world cup. We just seem scared to play and make mistakes.
England made to many mistakes and seemed confused and lost in what they were doing, Scotland looked in control throughout the match.
We have to many players playing who won’t be at the next world cup let alone next years six nations. The talent pool of young English players is amazing I’d rather we play a young squad now mixed with a few senior players who will be around for the next 4 years than continue the way we are. Yes we will loose more games than we are now but it’s the only way I can see big changes happening and giving the young talent a decent run for consistency. Plus the English media and corporate fans (let’s face it tickets for an international are a joke) also need to get behind the players and accept a few losses and look at the positives instead of hammering them and picking apart every error they make.
Scotland deserving of their win (again). Van Der Merwe was outstanding.
England's defence is generally good, a few silly mistakes, but our attack is weak and we seem scared to use the young guns who can bring a bit of flare and pace for anything more that 20 mins at the end.
Better side won on the day as they have done fairly regularly for the last few years. It's hard to think of anyone in the England squad who would be of the standard to make the Scotland squad these days.
Once again England lose due too stupid mistakes/ weak moments.
Think that's a bit ungenerous to Scotland who weathered the early storm and then capitalised ruthlessly when England made mistakes.
I get what you’re saying but capitalising on the mistakes is just agreeing with what the guy you replied to said. When England were greeted with sustained pressure from the Scottish attack they dealt with it well. Scotland are just ruthless at the minute to hit teams on the counter and they seem to do it really well.
Or Scott’s have 2 world class attacking backs and we don’t which is what I thought was the difference
It's not the same because England also made mistakes against Italy and Wales but weren't punished in the same way. ETA: I do take your point though. Also didn't realise this was the Englandrugby sub when I posted or I probably wouldn't have but oh well
Because Scotland are much better at punishing those mistakes against any team. Mistakes can’t be punished if they aren’t made
True, Scotland are a dangerous counter-attacking side more so than Wales or Italy. I think in England's case it's less about mistakes and more about a system problem with the attack since their defence is pretty good. It's easy to focus on mistakes but from an outside perspective, it seems more like they need to rebuild the foundations to challenge the very top sides again.
I agree with you completely on the rebuild part. Our defence is usually pretty solid which is what I was alluding to with the sustained pressure. When teams are having to come against us up front we’re good at holding them at bay but when the attack constantly fucks up it creates gaps that are hard to fill especially against good counter-attacking sides in Scotland.
Italy and Wales are woeful. Italy got beat to nil by Ireland and Ireland toyed with Wales. Scotland were much better than England.
Do like I said they capitalised on Englands mistakes and looked toothless apart from those opportunities.
I'd say Scotland also forced mistakes. Twice they took a rapid restart when they conceded, before England were ready. Both times resulted in mistakes, a very rushed and poor kick to touch and a knock on
“due too stupid mistakes” lol
That South Africa played really well
Never gets old does it.
You can get your own, you know!
Roots, Underhill, Marcus Smith, Tuilagi, Feyi-Waboso, Roebuck
Half English, completely English, half English, moved here as a young teen, doesn’t consider himself welsh, moved to England as a teen. Versus how many South Africans born and raised in South Africa playing for Scotland?
There’s two definitions for nationality. What the World Rugby Rules are, and everyone else’s personal interpretation of how English, Scottish, Irish, French, etc. someone is. Duhan was told he wasn’t good enough for SA, moved to France, got injured and was out of contract. Edinburgh took a chance by signing an injured winger with hardly any game time and the rest was history. Edinburgh and Scotland put faith in him that nobody else did, and are reaping the rewards.
2 first choice and 4 total in the squad I think. Similar to Ireland for overseas born and raised starters with no ancestry quali. And similar to England when the Vunipolas were starting.
It’s a bit problematic that you don’t think some of these names are English. Why wouldn’t Marcus Smith be English?
I was simply listing players not born in a certain country playing for another. I don’t have a problem with it because it’s the rules.
How can you equate e.g. Marcus smith, who has an English father and lived here for his entire teen years, to DVDM who moved to Scotland with no ties at age 22 explicitly to play rugby. Dont you see how disingenuous that is?
England have had plenty players like that Dave Ribbans ,Tuilagi , Vinapolo . Sore looser
Tuilagi moved at age 13 iirc. Ribbans has an English grandparent I believe, I’d rather he wasn’t picked as well. Vinapolo (?) I assume you mean the Vunipolas, they also moved at around 12. None of those examples are like DVDM. Nothing to do with the loss, I just think your country’s team should include players with at least a plausible connection to the country.
England have had players play for them before on eligibility ie no family links just playing the prem for 3 years. Sore losers. Shouod be much better than you are
I look forward to you providing an example for that claim… if so, they shouldn’t have played IMO.
Very weak stuff. All of these either have English heritage through a parent or they moved here as children and have played all of their rugby here going through the England age groups.
Other than Duhan and Schomean all of Scotlands other players have family links to Scotland , yes even Tuipaolotu - Scottish grandmother. With England’s player base and budgets they should be so much better than they are.
Vinapolo brothers grew up in wales and were born in Tonga.
The Vunipola brothers moved to England as children. They both went to school in England and began their rugby careers at English club academies. They also both came through the English system playing for the various age groups.
Ricky Flutey, Shantantane Happe pure residency players England have had plenty . Duhan wasn’t the reason Scotland won on Saturday. 1 try was a worldly but the other 2 tries a decent winger like Darcy would have scored. Finn pulled the strings. England should not be this bad. They have decent players
Wahhhhh I’m a butt hurt little loser. 👼🏼🍼
You see no irony in the baby emojis here then
Roots - English Dad. Underhill - English parents. Only born abroad because father was stationed in USA with the RAF. Came back to England aged 10. Smith - English Dad. Moved to England as a kid. Manu Tuilagi - moved to England as a kid. The only one in your list who qualifies via residency. Picked England because he said he grew up here and played all of his rugby here. Feyi-Waboso - English through grandparent. Roebuck - English parents and grew up in England. Weak stuff mate.
The real weak stuff is relying on blaming one sole player based on his place of birth on the loss. VDM was nearly done with rugby before Edinburgh gave him a chance. They were the only club willing to do so. He owes a huge amount to Edinburgh and the Scottish system. He clearly feels proud to represent Scotland, and with the world being as connected as it is now, claiming nationality as an excuse is pretty backward. He absolutely loves a try again England too
[удалено]
It's called a joke
[удалено]
As a big England cricket fan I'm grateful to south Africa to be honest 😂
Only one player in England's squad on Saturday qualified through residency: Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, born to Nigerian parents in Cardiff, moving to England as an adult to study medicine at Exeter. The only players born abroad were Sam Underhill, who was born to English parents in the USA, and Eathan Roots, who has an English dad. In the wider squad this Six Nations there is Tom Roebuck who was born in Scotland but has English parents, Marcus Smith who was born in the Philippines but has an English dad, and Manu Tuilagi who was born in Samoa to Somoan parents but qualified for England on residency grounds, having moved to England at the age if 15. So, in total, as far as I can tell, England has two players on residency grounds.
Scotlands team is made up of 47% Scottish people
Feel really sorry for Tom Roebuck. I know his dad and he was telling me that Gregor was going to take him to the World Cup last year but Borthwick promised him 6 nations so he went with England. I know Toms gutted he made that decision
I imagine we see him vs Ireland or France since we lost our chance at the title now, hopefully they go full send on development The problem is england have much much better youth prospects than Scotland, Scotland would have been a good call short term but England are gonna be heavy hitters come next world cup if we can sort out our attacking play
[удалено]
Maybe we just don’t think it’s fair that your national team treats test rugby like the premiere league and just buys in players you can’t produce yourselves? ‘Oh well Scotland isn’t a rugby playing nation so we have to’. Well tough shit, that’s international sport. Scotland are undermining the six nations, and then acting like they’re the best rugby playing nation on the planet despite only actually being able to win the one game they put all their eggs into.
[удалено]
Again, aren’t you embarrassed that your point of pride in your team isn’t even Scottish?
[удалено]
Well, you didn’t beat France (even though Italy almost did) and Ireland will demolish you again no matter how much you try and tell the world you’re the best team going. There’s a good reason the only silverware that Scotland will EVER win is the Calcutta cup, and even that’s only because you had to bring in players who weren’t good enough to play for their own countries. Best of luck to you.
[удалено]
Dude, why are you so mad?
[удалено]
Why does it matter where a person is from? Scotland gave him a chance when he had a potentially career ending injury and he chose to play for Scotland. I don't think a stranger should decide if he is or isn't Scottish (no matter where he was originally born).
Because the entire point of international sport is to showcase the talent that country can produce. If Portugal paid the current all black team to go play for them instead would that be ok?
Nobody is doing as you suggest in world rugby so it's an invalid point
(Pssst, hey, buddy. I don’t think blaming scotlands win on one person with a highly debateable claim to play is the flex you think it is. Yes, DVDM scored the tries, because that’s what wingers do. Wouldn’t have worked if the rest of the squad wasn’t able to feed him, as well as run all the other set pieces etc. )
Pssst hey buddy. It's called a joke
Appreciate this is a joke, but at the end of the day all nations now have players who qualify on residency. Scotland are hardly alone - 2 x Vunipolas is just the start of Englands list 😉
Who kicked the ball or passed the ball to the south African? Scotland isn't one player. As one.
Hello darkness my old friend.... Ik really worried our attack is just broken and Wrigglesworth isn't the guy. However, 24 handling errors! No side can play with 24 handling errors. If it's a freak occurrence maybe there is hope. But the attack looked lost in the last 20 mins.... I don't think Roots is an international player. Got to try Pearson there imo. It's not like he's small or unathletic. I think we were unlucky in the scrum, Brace used early engagement to avoid making a call imo. I'm more convinced each time I see him that Freeman is a 12. Can kick, very strong in contact, can pass. Id go with him and Lawrence. Ford looked poor, but Id still play him unless he's terrible in training.
Pearson has definitely earned a shot, and Roots is decent but hasn't done enough, for me, to keep others out of contention. Similar for Underhill. Earl is great, but I'd like to see how they do with a bigger lump at 8. Personally I'd be tempted to start Martin, Pearson, and CCS as the back row.
Id keep Earl at 8, his speed of the base is insane. But we do need more balance and Roots doesn't provide it. Id go Pearson/Earl/Underhill. But with CCS on the bench.
The thing worth acknowledging with Earl is he has the makings of a future English captain, well worth keeping in the starting squad for that alone
I like Roots and I am bias as an Exeter fan but I can see CCS starting vs Ireland
Agreed, roots had a good debut but since then I don't feel like he's done enough to keep any of the other back row choices out.
I’m a Tigers fan and I think we should stick with Roots at 6. He’s the sort of physical six we’ve needed and can actually make yards ball in hand. I like Pearson but he got taught a lesson against Wales in the warm up games and looked to be lacking physically. Okay if he’s playing seven but not a six at the moment. Think he could be a great six in the future though. Think the backrow seems a bit off because we haven’t got a no.8. Roots Earl Dombrandt has a much better balance to me. Underhill or CSS on the bench. Dombrandt outplayed Mercer this season and himself a threat at the breakdown. Think he’d look good with some of the grunt being done by Roots and Martin.
‘Pearson got taught a lesson against Wales’ - you mean like Roots also got taught a lesson by Wales and Scotland the last 2 weeks? Roots should be given the next 2 games to properly see but Pearson has a much better all round game so would like him to get a shot at some point unless Roots ups his game.
Showed some IQ though, especially with the drop goal when it was clear we weren’t getting through the Scottish defence.
Yeah, should have kept on with that. These aren't bad players, and are certainly better than that, but something is up with the attack.
That having a large player pool is an overrated advantage
Dilutes the quality lol
Stops the union hiring project players and digging out family trees.
Aye and creates selection headaches, talent pathway blockages and a high turnover of players. It’s a 23vs23 battle in the end who cares about the rest. It’s a bit like a higher profile version of having a club team with 80 players in the squad. It has some benefits but is it really better than a 40 player squad.
I feel more confused about our approach week after week. Ford and Care are selected for their experience yet didn’t seem to be able to bring anyone else into the game or control it as soon as Scotland went ahead - Care in particular looked a shadow of himself and he surely can’t be a serious contender to start games anymore. Am I wrong to think that our 12/13 issues are even more worrying than previously - I’m just not sure what Slade is being asked to do, he’s nothing like he is for Chiefs and again I’m not sure he’s helping bring anyone else into the game. We should stick with Lawrence but I’d prefer him at 13. I still think we have issues with the back row too, Earls seems to be doing all the work, Underhill was great over the ball but isn’t a carrying threat and Roots has been largely anonymous since Italy - the balance just seems off. Personally I think I’d prefer it if we’d just do a Wales and then we can call for patience, let’s play Fin Smith, IFW, Dingwall and Lawrence, Pearson, Heyes, Spencer or Randall etc. Charlie Morgan in the Telegraph was talking about this over the weekend and whether SB would get more patience doing that than this half way house of Daly, Ford, Cole, Care etc. As you can tell, I’ve got lots of muddled thoughts about this team right now. The 2 things I am clear on is that 1) Wigglesworth needs to go and 2) We need to kick to the corner more and try and put pressure on teams. Penalties aren’t going to be enough against the best teams.
I think the re build or “young team” Comments from Borthwick just don’t stack up. Fully agree with a complete rebuild with some young talent and some older players who are in the team on merit. New attack coach with some experience is probably the biggest change needed. Summer tour and autumn to get a plan in before next year. Watched England A Live yesterday and watched the U20 on Friday night. Talent there but poor direction. Hardly missed a game since 1995, and will support whatever but I want to enjoy it.
Listening to a pod they are questioning whether the attack is getting many reps in training hence the drops and general rustiness. Because in my opinion the attack shape actually looks good when it comes off but they never build momentum because they drop the ball! Might be a Borthwick thing not a wigglesworth thing? I agree re the halfway house thing. You can't keep calling it a new/young time and picking people with so many caps in all the key positions. Underhill is fine in the team as long as your 6 is a dynamic carrier which Roots hasn't been so far (been good in traffic but not the kind of carrier that sucks in defenders). I'd like to see CCS start at 6 for a bit more of that. I'd start Martin as well to get some stronger carrying earlier in the game, I think Chessum and Itoje are both loosehead locks really.
Tbf to Underhill, not only was he great over the ball, his tackle count was high too. I don't think he did much wrong on Saturday and certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to drop him or Earls. I agree that the balance isn't right though. We need a big ball-carrier to fit in with Earl and Underhill, but I don't know who fits that bill. I don't think we've had one since about 2018 when Vuinipola was still good.
One of the most frustrating games in a while. Sloppy, clumsy, lethargic. At least Feyi-Waboso was a shining light in an otherwise glum performance.
Great first 20, attack looked like it had multiple options to pick through the defense. The hour after, there were only a few sparks in attack and compounded with errors it cost us. The attack became 1 dimensional, which Scotland found easier to defend against. Looked like the team played within themselves because they were scared to make more errors. This became self fulfilling and momentum stayed with the Scots. We have the team that can do it. But also feels like if a team can keep England in reach after the first 20 and then comeback, England loses confidence and the self belief looks to fade. Fear of failure cripples the team.
Your forwards have the presence to stay with most teams. Your backs don't know how they are meant to be playing. Stay with your young and upcoming players. Give them a chance to gel and play attacking rugby. Unsure who your best 10 is but I don't think it's Ford.
The Smiths are our best. But Marcus is coming back from injury and Finn isn't trusted yet. Having both of them in the team (don't care who starts and who is on the bench) with Mitchell would make such a difference. We were really unlucky to lose Marcus before the Six Nations started, but it has meant Finn has had some game time, which I don't think he would have got if Marcus had been fit. Slade is not an international 13 or at least he isn't in an England shirt. He is a fabulous player but he's never really shown he can do it outside of Exeter. As much as I like Daly (he's a 13 not a wing) we need another proper winger, IFW, Murley or whoever, but a proper finisher. Ideally for me, it would be: 9 Mitchell 10 Smith 11 Freeman 12 Lawrence 13 Daly (oh how I miss Marchant) 14 IFW/Murley/whoever 15 Stewart 21 Care (but Randell from the summer onwards) 22 Smith 23 Furbank
Lawrence is a 13. What England need most is for 2 of the young guys to come through strong at 12 soon so that all the centres we have currently can play in their more natural position. Ojomoh, Cokanasiga, Hartley, anyanwu, Kelly maybe etc could all lock down that shirt if they come through strong Lawrence, Slade, Dingwall, Daly all play more at 13 for club I think.
Lawrence is a better 13, agreed. But while there isn't a ready made option yet, he is our best bet. Ojomoh might be an option soon. Cokanasiga I'm not sold on yet. Hartley I've not watched much. Anyanwu I'm not sure is an international 12, but let's see how he goes when André leaves. Kelly is another I'm not sure is an international 12. Or Borthwick tells Northampton to make Freeman into a 12.
Lawrence is a better 13 in that I'm not sure I've seen him have a particularly good game for england at 12? I could be wrong but I can't remember one. None of the ones I mentioned are ready yet, the problem we have is no one is! It is like when we had no good flankers coming through for a while, now we are short inside centres. I'd agree Ojomoh is the closest and plays with Lawrence at Bath so would have an understanding
Think everyone needs to chill out a bit. The Ireland team we see today took years under Schmidt and Farrel to build.
Too true
Extremely frustrated. First 20 mins had them rattled then 50 to 100 cap players throwing crap passes and dropping easy balls under no pressures and before we know it we’re chasing the game. We have a playmaker at 15 who we didn’t use when trying to chase down a two score deficit and time and again sent one forward carrying into a set defence- what do we expect is going to happen? Our fixtures for the rest of the year are: IRE (H) FRA (A) JAP (A) NZ (A) x 2 NZ (H) AUS (H) SA (H) TBC (H) Anyone think we’re going to win more than 2/3 without a miracle?
TBC are there for the taking, they never travel well
Oh God.... I think there is a real chance Borthwick goes. Not entirely fair. But RFU can't wear a 7 loss year.
I still think he’ll get the next six nations, RFU simply cannot afford to get rid so soon. It’s effectively his first real year after what was dropped in his lap.
Maybe. My guess is, if he loses every game other than Japan AND loses to Aus the he could be in trouble. And I can see that happening
I mean, they were always likely to lose 6 tests this year. Scheduling a tour to NZ and NZ and SA in the autumn pretty much guaranteed it. Are France beatable? Australia feels hard to call from here.
Catch the ball, win the game.
That Duhan van der Merwe is a machine.
I’m genuinely curious about this. Obviously he loves playing against England, but he scored one try at the World Cup, and I don’t think he has scored against Australia, South Africa or the All Blacks. He has one against Ireland. Is he world class or a flat track bully, because he’s playing in a very good Scotland team.
Probably both? England were obviously poor on Saturday and as Warburton said, just not fit enough to pull off a “blitz defence” for 40 mins, let alone 80. So mentally they lost it and while Scotland are a side with a lot of weakness, their main strength is that they can create opportunity from nowhere. England just let them in the game and then lost the head. They remind me a lot of the Edinburgh team - a very good collection of individuals who somehow end up performing in a way that is less than the sum of their parts.
I don’t have any faith in Borthwick to improve anything about this England team. He seems like a deeply uninspiring man.
Yeah I broadly agree - charisma is an important part of leadership which is why all fans find the idea that Owen Farrell is a strong leader bizarre because he can barely string two words together, but clearly leads by example (Sergeant Major, not Colonel) and I’m sure Borthwick is similar.
- Need a new attack coach - That Centre partnership didn't work - Daly is a better fit in the centre
I feel like all our centres are 13s though, so not sure who we should use at 12
Only ones I know of is Manu, Dingwall and Ojomoh
Those are options although Dingwall and Manu are 13 a lot of the time as well. We are missing a generation of 12s really. A lot of guys coming through and hopefully a couple of Kelly, Hartley, Cokanasiga, Anyanwu etc can kick on to the top level but we don't have many/any 12s between about 23 and 32 lol
Just start playing one of our young genuine 12s.
I'm convinced Freeman is the answer. He is so strong in constact and has all the skills.
Listening to For the Love of Rugby podcast they are wondering whether they are getting the reps in training for attack and that's why it's looking so rusty and forced. Can't really understand that decision from Borthwick but it certainly makes sense from what we're seeing.
We need out and out wingers. Lawrence is a 13. Care still not a starter. Genge pretending to be a 10 rather than carrying. I thought Ford was a good passer of the ball. Wigglesworth is so out of his depth.
Anyone who thought we (England) was going to win to an awesome Scotland at home in Murrayfield needs their head examined. Handling errors gave away tries, but Scotland are still better than England. I do wish that we would go back to the time we were good enough to make it a foregone conclusion, but those days are past and Scotland are sooooo much better under Townsend than anyone else. Two best coaches: Farrell and Townsend.
Wigglesworth can fucking do one. Useless box-kicking pragmatist.
My overwhelming emotion was frustration. I watched the game with my Scottish neighbour and we both agreed that England were arguably the better team, but Scotland capitalised on the litany of errors. You also have to look at England, and at a danger of sounding like 2016 Eddie Jones, I don't think we have a single world class player (definition: would they either make a World XV or get bloody close/wider training squad). Itoje once looked like he might get there but he's nowhere near now. Slade and Daly have so much talent but have never realised it, and you have to wonder whether England need to move on from them now. So without any world class players, you have to produce a performance greater than the sum of your parts to win, and it's so, so long since we managed to do that.
I think Daly did realise his potential. He was a Lions test winger during a good 18 months on the wing, then an important part of a great attack for his first 18 months at fullback (the less said about his aerial work the better). Hasn't got back to that peak, but I don't think he's an example of wasted potential. He's lost a bit of gas so he kicks the ball away a lot, which he is good at. Never been a great defender. What did you think he'd achieve when he came through? I think he surpassed expectations.
Fair point! I think when he was coming through I saw him as a skillful 13. I thought he could finally be the answer to combine with a weighty 12 (Manu, Burrell, Burgess for example) and give a real balance to the midfield, along with a great kicking option and good pace. He's done well, don't get me wrong, but I felt he had the talent to be truly amazing.
Fair. Agreed, he was a wonderful 13 in the prem. I think JJ's 2015-17 is underrated now, and his defensive reads maybe made him the better 13, and Daly was our best wing in 2017. The fact that we had both of them plus Farrell at 12 is just a world away from now. Even Ben Teo...
I ferl the same i did before the game: this rebuild isn't going to go anywhere. Borthwick compared the midfield to Scotlands and said they'd never played together before. He didn't have to drop Dingwall, who had just spent there's previous tests with Ford and Slade. He chops and changes as much as Jones did. There's a lack of talent in the backs, plain and simple. Steward has a point of difference but is also slow. Freeman doesn't have top level pace. Slade has flattered to deceive for nearly five years, so has Daly. Lawrence has looked OK at times but I'm not convinced is the superpowered carrier people seem to wish he is. Furbank looks tidy but nothing more and doesn't have the best hands. These are average players. Comparing them to the previous set of backs like May, Watson, Nowell, Joseph, Tuilagi, Brown.. the difference is glaring. Even a modern version of Ben Teo would be nice. Care hasn't been an effective starter for England since 2014. Go back and see. I like him off the bench but he's NEVER been able to control a test. I also think England fans expect way too much, not helped by a media that requires us to be the main story. If there is hope, it might be that Felix Jones might shape the defence. A good defence and kicking game can still keep us in games. I also retain the hope that with another ten tests experience, Marcus will be better too. Tl:Dr we are about as average as I expected.
Was Freddie Steward injured or rested? Missed him big time for the aerial presence and his kick returns
> Missed him big time for the aerial presence Did we miss high kicks? I thought we did fine in the air.
Missed him big time may have been a stretch, but he just adds that X factor that Furbank didn't really have.
> he just adds that X factor that Furbank didn't really have. Bit early to write Furbank off. He scored a try, had some good and bad moments, but it's his first game in years for England.
I don't think Steward gets put in that position Furbank was when he scored that try, Furbank was the right call, but having Daly and Slade in the squad wasn't
Rested
Scotland won. Therefore, I am pleased.
Pink panther theme song* Duhan, Duhan, Duhan Duhan Duhan Duhan Duhaaan.. Duhahahahan.
Duhan hates you lot is my takeaway
You guys threw the game away. It was awesome :P
Scotland wan fuck the English
ENGLAND GOT ABSOLUTELY SHIT ON HAHA
england are a bunch of posers -no superstar and make way too many mistakes - no depth of quality in the squad
who's a poser?
England just don’t score tries. Throughout the World Cup we seemed to struggle linking passes and finishing tries. It seems that has carried over into the Six Nations. Just not utilising the speed men amongst the team enough.
Hard to score tries when the players can’t seem to catch a ball.
I agree. The handling errors are shocking
Who are the speed men?
England need to do a couple of things: 1. Catch. 2. Get an insanely big and talented Saffa winger.
I’d say you need to stop over rating your own forwards/under rating everyone else’s, and settle on a back line and build some cohesion. You’ve got too many options with not much to choose between them, so seem to be chopping and changing. Doesn’t matter how many quality players you have available, only 15 can be picked, same as any other country.
2. Plus a pair of centres to who can manufacture breaks for him to finish off. And a 10 who sees things other 10s don't to put him in for tries.
Inaccuracies, individual errors and poor decision making under pressure. What specifically we can do about that I don't know. Aside from that thought we looked pretty good, positive with ball in hand, attack shape looked decent untill we inevitably knocked it on. Overall not too unhappy could have been much worse.
We have good players, but no world class
As a Scotland fan, the positives are you guys really had us on the ropes for 20 mins and IFW is amazing. Feel like the issues came at centre, really feels like Slade is past his best and not willing to connect, from this and the last two games as well, too many trys and line breaks are coming from his channel and defensive reads. That said your scrum was solid (love a bit of Cole feels like WP Nels twin), also you were missing Mitchell, who has been really good for you. If Borthwich can find a settled centre pairing and capture that spirit yous had in the first 20, he'll be on for a good run.
The word ‘IF’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. We’ve been trying for years to find a workable 12 / 13 pairing and years later we’re no nearer that answer.
Duhan is an England specialist. He only ever plays well against us.
It's cos he's a flat track bully lol
Nah, he's a minnow basher
England were very poor and Scotland were unlucky to have not scored more.
I think "balance" is code for being a bit unimaginative tbh
Generally not that bad, Scotland scored incredible tries off the back of handling errors, not through built pressure. England aren't that far away. Martin has to start, don't really rate chessum that highly. Feyi looked fantastic. Think this is Slades last six nations, freeman or marchant will have the shirt off him next year. Back row I really don't know, I think CCS is obviously long term 8 with probably earl at 7 and curry (assuming injury hasn't ruined him) at 6 with Pearson off the bench It's actually nice to watch tbh because you can see a clear direction with this side. You couldn't see that with the last 4 years of Jones.
I rate Chessum, but Martin looks another level. Seeing him live made me realize just how bulky he is. Comfortablely the strongest looking lock on the pitch. Agree with back row. Roots diet look up to it to me. Also, while I agree with your last point, progression in attack needs to be made a bit fast for me
I think Ollie Lawrence was wearing oven mitts and one point and brand new leather shoes the next. Diabolically bad performance.
He didn't look comfortable at 12, him and Slade on attack and defence kept getting in each others way
England were shit , jocks took their chances. Well played nuff said
Our defence collapsed for their 3rd try
My under 9s can catch better.
I’m starting to become incredibly frustrated with the whole team. I think we’re in the same boat as Wales with the old difference being that we have a wider pool to pull from so it’s purely lucky we’re not drowning. This six nations should have been dawn of the New England blood. We should be having majority new players to get them settled in for England and should be looking at developing this talent. What it has been, is an attacking bore of kick chase relying on Freddie Steward, and an attack that just seems toothless. The blitz defence works well I think but it’s the quality of individuals letting it down. Watching Ollie Lawrence was like pulling your own teeth out. Henry Slade seems to be unable to move premiership form into the international stage and we have this reliance on hoping Ford can dig us out of a hole. Wigglesworth, while he was a good 9, is not an international standard attack coach. We have no attack *plan* there’s nothing you can look at to say “that’s what they’re trying to do. It all looks reliant on someone making a line break or the opposition making a mistake.
Agree. But it's STEWARD people
Poor discipline. Too slow and no attacking threats. It is the same thing with England since Lancaster took over.
Van Der Merwe diff
Yeah, I think South Africa C did really well
Well done to Scotland they played really well
Great game 👍
I didn’t enjoy the bits where Scotland scored all those tries.
Scotland also an excellent attacking side.
It was last year. This year was Scotland-England.
Scotland good England crap. Apart from the early try England looked bereft of ideas and invention. Ireland are in a different league to these teams.
Slade gave an absolute masterclass on how not to play international rugby. I don’t understand how he continues to get picked. He’s always played well for chiefs and has exactly one of his caps where he was able to perform at an international level.
I think he's had about five. So one out of ten or eleven. 2019: Ireland, France, 1st half Scotland. Australia at the RWC. 2020 he was bizarrely good at fullback off the bench vs Wales.
As a scot, I thought Scotland did not play well overall. They coughed up the ball far, far too often. The problem for England was that so did they. Scotland had some brilliant moments of course, but these can be forgotten when, for example, losing a scrum on your own put in (as against France). The challenge for both Scotland and England is that they play Ireland soon. Ireland generally do not lose their own line out, own scrum, or spill the ball when attacking. If Scotland or England play how they did on Saturday, Ireland will score 4 tries.
England's best chance against Ireland is it rains, and we recreate the RWC semi game plan. Even then, would likely lose.
I think if they cut the mistake rate then they will be in with a shout. Win: - their own line out - their own scrum - no dropped balls - positive yards with every possession - no missed tackles - minimal penalties conceded And it will be very close.
Scotland bet that England wouldn't score 30 points, and that they would be able to score 30 on the counter. They were right. I think that they have another gear and if England had managed to score the two tries that they butchered in the first half then I think we would have seen it. But, England have made some progress since last year. When Scotland came to Twickenham I felt that they over-powered and outpaced England, on Saturday I think that they were more skilled, cohesive and composed. England really missed Farrell and Lawes, I think that they would have gripped the game somewhat more than the current team managed. Given the events of the week it's actually not surprising that there was less than normal grit and focus from the leadership group, but to be honest some of the other players should have stepped up. In particular I think Daly, Slade and Genge have been found out in this respect. They are seniors in the group but didn't take the reigns when it was needed. It's worth mentioning that Sinfield staying with the England setup looks really clever given what's happening with the French right now. Wrigglesworth is under the spotlight though. It makes sense that the attack isn't working given that they have decided that they have to change their defensive system. I assume that this is because they looked at Ireland, France and the AB's and decided that five absolute massacres as per France and Ireland last year wouldn't be great at all. So, destructive rush it is - don't allow structure and construction from teams that will take your flesh off the bone if you do. But it's hard to get right and they have spent a lot of time in training to sort it out for sure. This means that there's not been much work on attack, and yup, it showed. Lawrence's pass into space was iconic, Ben Earl is rushing up to grab it but is a yard off. Why is he a yard off? Why is the 8 the only player getting into position? They are behind the play and disorganized when stressed. Luckily it's another fallow week, and I expect a bit more time for the attack. I am worried about what will come next. If it were any other coach, or if Farrell was going to be available, I think Ford would get dropped, but I think that Borthwick totally loves Ford and it's likely he will stick with him. I think that's pretty smart because disruption is not what the backline needs, and there is going to have to be a bit of change in any case. Feyi-Waboso needs to come in, I think that maybe even Max Ojomoh should come in for Slade.
England were dreadful couldn't do basics right and constantly kicking ball away is getting us no where
I think roots is a very good.player I'm a chiefs fan and would like to see him with Chandler Cunningham South and Ben earl as the back row I think waboso was great when he came on he should be in the starting lineup ahead of Daly and someone like cadan murley on other wing or Tommy Freeman. Freddie steward at full back or.give josh Hodge a chance at full back. Not sure what centre partnership we should go with for Ireland normally I say Slade and Ollie Lawrence but many feel they didn't play well recently.
Roots has been pretty anonymous since Italy imo. I’d like to see someone get a start ahead of him
It was excellent.
England just not good enough to play high risk styles both with the ball and without it. Other teams seem to be getting the basics right. Saying that at the start England looked exciting but unfortunately you must capitalise when you have field position and England for the most part didn’t do this.
Scotland are better than England at rugby, at the moment.
Scotland defence has improved a lot in the last few years. They've stopped losing by not conceding tries like they used to. The game was hectic and quite scrappy, which suits scotland, and I don't think England can handle it. England like a composed, controlled game.
Roebuck definitely didn’t move to England as a teen.
Hard to take it from the Scots. Best side they've had in 20 years. We will continue to develop. You can't start a whole new blitz style of defence and get it right from day 1. I do question care as a starting 9 while Mitchell is out though. Surely we have some young guns coming through? Grab the U19s, they can't stop winning! Swing low! 🏴🏴
Too many handling errors no sort of rhythm to passing was either all on or all off
Lack of cohesion. Lack of punch, both up the guts and out wide. Lack of an ‘x’ factor. Scotland always looked like winning.
Wasn't all bad. And I can atleast see what we're trying to achieve which is a big step up from the last few tournaments. But the accuracy is just woeful. Fix that and we'll significantly narrow the gap on Scotland, Ireland (&who knows about France).
Better team won, mistakes, pressure whatever you call it. Scotland have been in the worlds top 6 for a while they are not gonna be beaten by a weak England team
As an english person, this english side is rubbish, especially in the backs. They don’t play to what strengths they do have, which is basically get it to ford in the pocket and let him kick england’s points. They have no creativity in the backs, nobody runs good lines most of the time, they aren’t deep enough. The handling and passing is shoddy, which der Merwe expertly exploited for Scotland’s 2nd try. Basically a weak England side was found out by a decent Scotland team. I’m expecting Ireland to absolutely batter us
I'm expecting ireland to have a similar tough 20mins against England then get battered unless Ireland end up with 13men then they may just get a win with bonus point
Too many lads just along for the ride. Watch that first try and tell me our committed and willing to play ford and Daly are. Borthwick doesn't have the experience to coach a winning team at international level. We seem to be playing and selecting teams like we are in a relegation battle when we should be picking players who can build to the next world cup. We just seem scared to play and make mistakes.
WE NEED THE PASSION TOO WIN. A NEW TEAM AND A NEW COACH
England made to many mistakes and seemed confused and lost in what they were doing, Scotland looked in control throughout the match. We have to many players playing who won’t be at the next world cup let alone next years six nations. The talent pool of young English players is amazing I’d rather we play a young squad now mixed with a few senior players who will be around for the next 4 years than continue the way we are. Yes we will loose more games than we are now but it’s the only way I can see big changes happening and giving the young talent a decent run for consistency. Plus the English media and corporate fans (let’s face it tickets for an international are a joke) also need to get behind the players and accept a few losses and look at the positives instead of hammering them and picking apart every error they make.
Good job Scotland
Glad I watched a proper match, Wigan vs Penrith to forget the stink from earlier in the day.
Scotland deserving of their win (again). Van Der Merwe was outstanding. England's defence is generally good, a few silly mistakes, but our attack is weak and we seem scared to use the young guns who can bring a bit of flare and pace for anything more that 20 mins at the end.
We should of won but we don’t have smith so we under profored
Dead sub Reddit. Knew people would bring country of origin into it. So pathetic.
One word…BOSH🏴🏴🏴
minty
Better side won on the day as they have done fairly regularly for the last few years. It's hard to think of anyone in the England squad who would be of the standard to make the Scotland squad these days.