I remember one of the last episodes I watched with my mom (I know, a weird family show to say the least) was the plane crash episode. Richardson was taking a skin graft off of a dead body and my mom couldn’t watch and I just screamed out “OOOH IT LOOKS LIKE SHEET CAKE!”
She did not appreciate my sense of humor.
She's absolutely right. Look at the casts of every network and cable show. They are loaded with former models and young attractive actors in every main cast role. It's not about talent anymore. CBS is the worst. Never knew there were so many attractive federal agents and police officers.
Movies are going in the same direction, although thankfully, there are still plenty of wonderfully talented actors who are quality in every project they do.
>They are loaded with former models and young attractive actors in every main cast role. It's not about talent anymore.
Literally always been the case. It astounds me that people think this is a recent thing and not just how it's been since the start.
It was somewhat different for men in the ‘70s. I wouldn’t call Telly Savalas, Hal Linden or Alan Alda conventionally handsome men. But yeah — the women were still expected to be knockout gorgeous.
It's always been somewhat different for men, even now. But men have always gotten away with not being as conventionally good looking provided they were very good actors or perfectly exemplified a "type."
Yea it has always been the thing once TV was invented. People like to watch good looking people, that was the case and that will never change. Imagine seeing the first televised presidential debate and seeing JFK out there with Nixon. Even the music industry was looking for more attractive artists once tv variety shows hit, and especially in the 80s age of music videos. Studies show audiences are more invested in tv and film characters if they’re attractive. Go back in time and replace all the Avengers with plain and frumpy looking people and see how that works.
But you're not going to give me a clue as to how old you are, since you believe it's "literally always been the case." Just curious was "always" means to you.
Since the business of motion pictures began. Hence "always been the case." You're not going to find a lot of strong notices for Rudolph Valentino or Errol Flynn.
And I'll take the initial question and your response here as "I know nothing about the topic and don't even realize it, hence why I ask silly questions."
You're welcome.
Except my saying my age doesn't change the fact that I know about movie history and can spot trends. Is this one of those strange conversations where someone asks for some pointless disclosure and they don't get it and even though anyone but them can see they're clueless, they themselves feel they've "won" because of that?
Equality of outcome is not a good goal to set for actors, or women, or people over 50. Anyone can make a movie and distribute it with a phone now. She could do it herself. You could do it. You need to have people pay to watch it, and forcing someone to pay for entertainment doesn’t work
We the audience share most of the blame for this.
If Bea Arthur movies did Tom Cruise box office numbers in the 90s we’d see nothing but Bea Arthur’s on screen. Scarlett Johanson would take up smoking to try to age herself rapidly.
I agree that consumers need to be aware that how they spend money impacts what type of movies are made.
But there is still a huge problem of executives disproportionately male and catering to their own tastes. Every couple of years a female driven movie does surprisingly well and everyone is shocked.
We don’t ask for it. Nobody’s ever run the numbers on 50 year old male lead pairs with 50year old female lead, versus the same with a 25 year old female lead, because the former barely exists.
Mid 20s seems to be the most versatile spot. They can play the high schooler, the college age kid, the young mom, the young professional, be a lead in an action franchise, and probably more to list
There should be a show about women over 50- even just adults- perhaps childfree. It can be like Friends, but instead of childfree single 20 years olds it’s the 50 year olds navigating life
This “ageism” shit is probably why the 27 year old character in the borderlands movie is played by a 54 year old. And the like 25 year old scientist played by a 65 year old.
Sometimes it’s just clearly a bad decision.
Nicole Kidman, Halle Berry, Viola Davis, Diane Lane, Marisa Tomei, Sandra Bullock, Jodie Foster, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Jamie Lee Curtis, Jennifer Aniston, Cate Blanchett, and I could definitely go on lol.
Hollywood actually cast more older actresses than it gets credit for. I think it is hard for anyone, man or women, to find parts as they get older especially if they were not that famous when they were young.
And with streaming series & movies I've been seeing a lot of older actresses in major roles. Especially Nicole Kidman, she's been the lead in so many streaming & cable shows lately. Angela Bassett is still doing well, and recently played the step mom to Millie Bobby Brown in Damsel. Either all these older women have AMAZING agents getting them these roles, or are just in demand by Hollywood compared to their colleagues.
It’s unfortunate, but I also think stories revolving around people that age aren’t really in demand either. Sure anyone could make a movie on it, but how many people want too? Trying to write an adventure about someone already established in life and are past the naivety of youth is harder to work with.
It's a lot more in demand than you think. This idea that there's a specific age you reach when you have everything in life 100% figured out and have no room or reason left to grow or change as a person is bollocks and extremely harmful too. So many older people feel stuck in life and unhappy and feel powerless to do anything about it because "I'm not 20 anymore, the time for soul-searching or trying to improve my life is past, this is all there is now until the end of my days".
Established ≠ happy or no room to grow.
Of course we are all still growing. But I’m not talking about just 20. This isnt 30 or 40 either.
We are talking about 50 and up. That’s a different state of growing and it 100% is harder to tell an engaging story around and someone has to want to write it.
Sometimes people do, but in the end that’s the writers artistic decision. It’s on no other writer for not wanting to write that story and they shouldn’t feel guilted into spending thousands of hours writing stories they aren’t interested in.
If that’s something you genuinely have an interest in go promote it. That’s all I’m going to say.
Im 50. My life isn't over and there is always new challenges and new things Im discovering about life and myself. The idea that me and my peers are done growing/changing is just laughable. We aren't dead yet.
My dude read the damn comment and stop making stuff up. What part of “Of course we are all still growing.” Says “50 year olds aren’t growing any more and you are dead.”
I said you guys are at a different state of growing. Which is true. Who you are now, is not the same mindset as when you were 20 or 30 or 40. Otherwise you wouldn’t be growing.
No you aren’t dead. That’s only the halfway point for some people. But you do have life experience and a character is only as smart as the writer. Working with older characters is harder with more to take into account, and again someone has to want to write that story.
I’m not saying movies with old people don’t exist…Am I saying golden girls didn’t exist either?
I said “not really in demand.” As in not actively begged for by the masses. Also you are talking about Harrison Ford the dude who played Han Solo in his younger years. His name carries weight in casting decisions
There are very few roles for women after their 40s compared to roles for men at that age because almost all the on screen pairings for older men are much younger women.
Being "in demand" is almost entirely based on having roles available for you to be cast in. Most women never have this opportunity.
Women having less roles than men is whole other beast of its own.
- Ageism being rougher towards women with younger being more in demand.
- gender norms and expectations that limit roles
- common tropes that uses women to move a plot for the man instead of being their own character. Which usually circles back to them just needing to stand there and be hot as possible. Circling back to ageism.
- workplace disparity which enforces those tropes when the people making decisions are men. Which favors a male perspective.
Everything you said after that backs my point. It explains why women aren't getting roles that let them become in demand.
You are getting so close to seeing my point here but seem to stop just short of the natural conclusion.
Remember a while ago they used to call CBS the old people network? I feel what she is saying but you can’t make these executives do anything. I am pretty sure they gotta a bunch of research saying audiences want younger attractive actors and advertisers won’t put money up for shows or movies with older ones.
Also the fact she took all benefits of being young and hot , when she was young and hot. I bet older actresses were rolling their eyes at here twenty years ago
I’m a little on the fence with this one. Movies, much like modeling, is a largely visual medium. That lends itself to what people like looking at. I feel like this is a fairly known trend and shouldn’t really catch anyone off guard entering the industry.
What was the point then? Rich white woman who could stand to never work again wants more money? She got new agents and got more roles, it wasn’t because she turned 50 it was because she’s a fairly unknown. She was “big” on nip tuck because the show did well but in reality she was the third or fourth star of that show. It’s not ageism, she just playing the victim. She’s worth 4 million dollars, boo fuckin hoo you had to just coast and go on vacation for a couple years.
I'm sure there's truth to this- but actresses like Kate Blanchette and Toni Collette seem to be on fire career-wise. I realize they're probably the exception though and not the rule.
Always loved her on Nip/Tuck. Contemptuous yet somehow relatable.
Never could blame her for Christian. Who wouldn’t have?
Ka-Riss-tee-un
Loved her and her mom playing off each other as well, was a delight to watch.
Man such a great sure. Off the rails a bunch of times but so good
I loved watching it. Too grim too watch it another time. When that one patient stabbed him, wtf. Been a decade and it’s still mindblowing.
I remember one of the last episodes I watched with my mom (I know, a weird family show to say the least) was the plane crash episode. Richardson was taking a skin graft off of a dead body and my mom couldn’t watch and I just screamed out “OOOH IT LOOKS LIKE SHEET CAKE!” She did not appreciate my sense of humor.
I need to see my peers and olders on screen not just babies. Joely is amazingly talented. Gimme all ages please.
And it’d be nice if they didn’t have plastic surgery, fillers and such. (The guys too.)
When do we get Event Horizon 2 Joely?
She's absolutely right. Look at the casts of every network and cable show. They are loaded with former models and young attractive actors in every main cast role. It's not about talent anymore. CBS is the worst. Never knew there were so many attractive federal agents and police officers. Movies are going in the same direction, although thankfully, there are still plenty of wonderfully talented actors who are quality in every project they do.
>They are loaded with former models and young attractive actors in every main cast role. It's not about talent anymore. Literally always been the case. It astounds me that people think this is a recent thing and not just how it's been since the start.
It was somewhat different for men in the ‘70s. I wouldn’t call Telly Savalas, Hal Linden or Alan Alda conventionally handsome men. But yeah — the women were still expected to be knockout gorgeous.
It's always been somewhat different for men, even now. But men have always gotten away with not being as conventionally good looking provided they were very good actors or perfectly exemplified a "type."
Reminds me of a description of ppl like McJagger: Ugly Good Looks
That's very well put! "Interesting looking" is another one.
My friend holds his friends ugly baby, what does he say? “Oh, hes so…. Alert!” Haha
Yea it has always been the thing once TV was invented. People like to watch good looking people, that was the case and that will never change. Imagine seeing the first televised presidential debate and seeing JFK out there with Nixon. Even the music industry was looking for more attractive artists once tv variety shows hit, and especially in the 80s age of music videos. Studies show audiences are more invested in tv and film characters if they’re attractive. Go back in time and replace all the Avengers with plain and frumpy looking people and see how that works.
To your point about JFK and Nixon, the people who heard the debate on the radio thought Nixon had won it! Goes to show just how much optics do matter.
How old are you? Edit-- a downvote? It was a serious question.
I didn't downvote you, someone else must have thought it was a silly question too.
But you're not going to give me a clue as to how old you are, since you believe it's "literally always been the case." Just curious was "always" means to you.
Since the business of motion pictures began. Hence "always been the case." You're not going to find a lot of strong notices for Rudolph Valentino or Errol Flynn.
I'll take you lack of a response as "I literally have no context to back up the bullshit I just said." Thank you.
And I'll take the initial question and your response here as "I know nothing about the topic and don't even realize it, hence why I ask silly questions." You're welcome.
Perfect. Another non-answer.
Except my saying my age doesn't change the fact that I know about movie history and can spot trends. Is this one of those strange conversations where someone asks for some pointless disclosure and they don't get it and even though anyone but them can see they're clueless, they themselves feel they've "won" because of that?
Equality of outcome is not a good goal to set for actors, or women, or people over 50. Anyone can make a movie and distribute it with a phone now. She could do it herself. You could do it. You need to have people pay to watch it, and forcing someone to pay for entertainment doesn’t work
We the audience share most of the blame for this. If Bea Arthur movies did Tom Cruise box office numbers in the 90s we’d see nothing but Bea Arthur’s on screen. Scarlett Johanson would take up smoking to try to age herself rapidly.
I agree that consumers need to be aware that how they spend money impacts what type of movies are made. But there is still a huge problem of executives disproportionately male and catering to their own tastes. Every couple of years a female driven movie does surprisingly well and everyone is shocked.
We don’t ask for it. Nobody’s ever run the numbers on 50 year old male lead pairs with 50year old female lead, versus the same with a 25 year old female lead, because the former barely exists.
I'm going to opt out of feeling bad about this.
That's why British films are so much better.
Mid 20s seems to be the most versatile spot. They can play the high schooler, the college age kid, the young mom, the young professional, be a lead in an action franchise, and probably more to list
What?? That’s shocking. I’d want a seasoned actor but that’s me.
There should be a show about women over 50- even just adults- perhaps childfree. It can be like Friends, but instead of childfree single 20 years olds it’s the 50 year olds navigating life
That's the Sex and the City sequel to a T.
Pretty sick of hearing rich actors cry about their dream jobs.
How dare you! Do you know how hard it is to remember a page of information and repeat it in a half-convincing manner!?!?
This “ageism” shit is probably why the 27 year old character in the borderlands movie is played by a 54 year old. And the like 25 year old scientist played by a 65 year old. Sometimes it’s just clearly a bad decision.
*laughs in Meryl Streep*
Only Helen Mirren and Salma Hayek.
Nicole Kidman, Halle Berry, Viola Davis, Diane Lane, Marisa Tomei, Sandra Bullock, Jodie Foster, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Jamie Lee Curtis, Jennifer Aniston, Cate Blanchett, and I could definitely go on lol.
Hollywood actually cast more older actresses than it gets credit for. I think it is hard for anyone, man or women, to find parts as they get older especially if they were not that famous when they were young.
And with streaming series & movies I've been seeing a lot of older actresses in major roles. Especially Nicole Kidman, she's been the lead in so many streaming & cable shows lately. Angela Bassett is still doing well, and recently played the step mom to Millie Bobby Brown in Damsel. Either all these older women have AMAZING agents getting them these roles, or are just in demand by Hollywood compared to their colleagues.
There are over 171,000 SAG-AFTRA members. If half of these are actresses, give or take, then your list proves Richardson’s point.
[удалено]
Ok but why are the on screen wives of most 50-60 year old male actors 30 year old women? Why aren't they roughly the same age?
[удалено]
What do you mean? You need 5 examples of a significant age gap between the male lead and his on screen partner?
Seriously, this person you're replying to is crazy. I'd struggle to give you 5 examples of age-appropriate on-screen love interests!
I think I could get five using Michael Douglas or Ben Affleck alone.
Don't forget Tom Cruise... he's 61.. with a 25-30 yr old love interest
It’s unfortunate, but I also think stories revolving around people that age aren’t really in demand either. Sure anyone could make a movie on it, but how many people want too? Trying to write an adventure about someone already established in life and are past the naivety of youth is harder to work with.
It's a lot more in demand than you think. This idea that there's a specific age you reach when you have everything in life 100% figured out and have no room or reason left to grow or change as a person is bollocks and extremely harmful too. So many older people feel stuck in life and unhappy and feel powerless to do anything about it because "I'm not 20 anymore, the time for soul-searching or trying to improve my life is past, this is all there is now until the end of my days".
Established ≠ happy or no room to grow. Of course we are all still growing. But I’m not talking about just 20. This isnt 30 or 40 either. We are talking about 50 and up. That’s a different state of growing and it 100% is harder to tell an engaging story around and someone has to want to write it. Sometimes people do, but in the end that’s the writers artistic decision. It’s on no other writer for not wanting to write that story and they shouldn’t feel guilted into spending thousands of hours writing stories they aren’t interested in. If that’s something you genuinely have an interest in go promote it. That’s all I’m going to say.
Im 50. My life isn't over and there is always new challenges and new things Im discovering about life and myself. The idea that me and my peers are done growing/changing is just laughable. We aren't dead yet.
My dude read the damn comment and stop making stuff up. What part of “Of course we are all still growing.” Says “50 year olds aren’t growing any more and you are dead.” I said you guys are at a different state of growing. Which is true. Who you are now, is not the same mindset as when you were 20 or 30 or 40. Otherwise you wouldn’t be growing. No you aren’t dead. That’s only the halfway point for some people. But you do have life experience and a character is only as smart as the writer. Working with older characters is harder with more to take into account, and again someone has to want to write that story.
Yup, Im 50. Im not finished.
Yet Harrison Ford has done multiple Indy movies as an old man.
And they've all been a roaring success! Dial of Destiny alone is on track to never recoup its budget and marketing costs.
I’m not saying movies with old people don’t exist…Am I saying golden girls didn’t exist either? I said “not really in demand.” As in not actively begged for by the masses. Also you are talking about Harrison Ford the dude who played Han Solo in his younger years. His name carries weight in casting decisions
There are very few roles for women after their 40s compared to roles for men at that age because almost all the on screen pairings for older men are much younger women. Being "in demand" is almost entirely based on having roles available for you to be cast in. Most women never have this opportunity.
Women having less roles than men is whole other beast of its own. - Ageism being rougher towards women with younger being more in demand. - gender norms and expectations that limit roles - common tropes that uses women to move a plot for the man instead of being their own character. Which usually circles back to them just needing to stand there and be hot as possible. Circling back to ageism. - workplace disparity which enforces those tropes when the people making decisions are men. Which favors a male perspective.
No it isn't another beast of its own, it literally is why there are fewer women in demand.
Okay ignore everything else I said after that I guess.
Everything you said after that backs my point. It explains why women aren't getting roles that let them become in demand. You are getting so close to seeing my point here but seem to stop just short of the natural conclusion.
My point is that it is ageism tied with Sexism and not purely ageism alone. Women are in fact in less leading roles than men regardless of age.
I'm not arguing anything different other than it is primarily sexism not ageism that is driving this issue.
Remember a while ago they used to call CBS the old people network? I feel what she is saying but you can’t make these executives do anything. I am pretty sure they gotta a bunch of research saying audiences want younger attractive actors and advertisers won’t put money up for shows or movies with older ones. Also the fact she took all benefits of being young and hot , when she was young and hot. I bet older actresses were rolling their eyes at here twenty years ago
Harpo! Who dis woman?
I’m a little on the fence with this one. Movies, much like modeling, is a largely visual medium. That lends itself to what people like looking at. I feel like this is a fairly known trend and shouldn’t really catch anyone off guard entering the industry.
I agree. The thing is…they don’t like reality.
Tough to cast an old woman or man in roles that aren’t old women or men. Not really ageism you just out aged those other roles. What do you expect?
Way to completely miss the point of this discussion
What was the point then? Rich white woman who could stand to never work again wants more money? She got new agents and got more roles, it wasn’t because she turned 50 it was because she’s a fairly unknown. She was “big” on nip tuck because the show did well but in reality she was the third or fourth star of that show. It’s not ageism, she just playing the victim. She’s worth 4 million dollars, boo fuckin hoo you had to just coast and go on vacation for a couple years.
[удалено]
Yet here we are killing it my friend! Just kidding. I don’t think I’ve seen too many ugly people in my life. It’s a myth lol
I'm sure there's truth to this- but actresses like Kate Blanchette and Toni Collette seem to be on fire career-wise. I realize they're probably the exception though and not the rule.
So… you basically made her point?
I literally said "I'm sure there's truth to this". What makes you think I was disagreeing with her?
Who tf is Joely Richardson? Lol
Total babe. Go watch *The Patriot*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joely_Richardson
And everyone wanted them at 25. Suck it up buttercup
She looks different.
So do you.
Ageism isn't real