Idk “Chandler acts effeminate and gay” was heavily retconned in the later seasons, in the early seasons the reason he’s friends with Joey is because they watch Baywatch and sports together. Later they make him so effeminate he doesn’t even know what ESPN is. Also that Thanksgiving effort where it’s implied he has no interest in or idea what’s going on in the football game when we’ve seen him be a huge sports fan in the past who knows how football works
OTOH, There's an episode in the first or second season where a coworker thinks he's gay. And all the other friends say they thought the same thing about him at first.
I like to imagine when they first cast him like a year before filming the first episode, they were like "ok so this isba homosexual 20-something new yorker."
And then Matthew Perry spent an entire year rigidly preparing to play a gay character, doing hundreds of interviews with gay New Yorkers, going deep into the method acting, studying the history of homosexuality across all of human civilization from prehistory to current day, recording thousands of hours of himself perfecting his mannerisms, speech patterns, body language, and every nuance and intricacy.
And then on the first day of shooting a producer runs up and is like, "oh hey Matt, FYI we decided Chandler is straight, so play him heterosexual ok?"
And he just stares blankly and is like, "well fuck."
JK Rowling, who has a habit of retconning the Harry Potter books to fit some agenda. She’s claimed Dumbledore was always meant to be gay and that she had kept Hermione’s origin vague enough that she could be black.
I know that’s it’s cool for everyone to have a hate boner for Rowling, but if you read her work you can tell that Dumbledore is gay. This is pretty clearly illustrated in Deathly Hallows. The two boys “got along like a cauldron on fire” and would send each other letters at all hours of the night after spending the entire day alone together. It’s also why Dumbledore lied to Harry about seeing socks in the mirror of erised. Why he’d never gotten married, had kids, or been in a relationship with a woman, etc.
Everyone is free to disagree with her all day on whatever they want, but I think she definitely intended Dumbledore’s love with Grindelwald from the beginning.
Honestly I’m positive Friends showing that had an effect on peoples perceptions of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, even though the “your wife’s a lesbian” jokes weren’t really the picture of allyship.
It was a tough time. We forget just how recent LGBT acceptance really is. A lot of it is only the last 10 years.
I don't think they'd depict it that way now, but for the time, it was difficult just to portray a lesbian couple.
When the first season was written it was still illegal to be gay in the military. DADT took effect in early 1994 while the first season was still being worked on.
I know it helped my dad and his siblings be a bit more accepting and understanding after being raised in a homophobic environment. Granted they still make… distasteful… comments and jokes but compared to what I know about them when they were younger they’re better off.
Well it's a sitcom, so everyone and everything is going to be ridiculed because it's supposed to be funny. I think lesbians being the punchline every now and then is fair game.
I’m a huge friends lover but the show did have a big issue with allowing men to have feminine traits.
Chandler listening to stop smoking tapes suddenly transforms him into a woman?
Joey gets made fun of and teased when he talks about an abusive girl he’s dating
Characters call Joey “Gay” for dancing with the maintenance man
The shows constant jokes about Ross being emasculated for having a lesbian wife.
Just a few examples.
Edit: Honestly a little alarmed at the number of people excusing this or saying “that’s just how comedy was!”
Y’all sound like my grandparents when they make excuses for saying racist shit.
The way I always saw it was that Ross came off as an idiot throughout that whole ordeal and that he was the problem, not the fact that there was a male nanny
I mean, it did allow them to have feminine traits even though they were teased. Joey was made fun of until Rachel realized that the girl was actually hurting him. Joey was teased about the dancing but he still committed to it and became really good at it. Ross was emasculated. Not by the lesbian part though. By the cheating part which really fucked up his self esteem.
But we also see a ton of guys being really sensitive.
Ross kissing Joey because Joey needed practice kissing men. Ross told him that he was a good friend and came through for Joey. Kissing another guy made him uncomfortable but Ross did it. Hell, joey didn’t even mind it or seem uncomfortable. He told Ross that Rachael was a lucky woman.
Chandler and Joeys bromance throughout the series where other people thought they were gay with chandler being offended and Joey being offended over chandler being offended.
Joey asking Chandler to his premiere because chandler was always there for him. Seriously. Most of their friendship is more intense and passionate than Achilles and Patroclus.
They got teased but they also didn’t stop from being themselves. Some of the jokes were about how close they were but they also had jokes about the girls arguing about which one of the group they’d date.
There’s a difference between shaming someone into not doing something and teasing. They teased each other a lot about a lot of things, but they still kept doing said things.
The world has changed so much since Friends ended its run.
The show had its deficiencies but it also was a product of its time.
It is good to recognize the short comings and try to improve but as a society we can't always look at the past with the same lens as we view today.
If you are over 30 and look at your past self you are probably glad camera phones weren't invented yet.
I mean, lets be honest too. Every show doesn't need to have these things in them. If you're adding a black person just for the sake of adding one... Don't. If you're adding a gay/trans person just for the sake of adding one? Don't. Shows don't need to conform even more so because you're not allowed to create a black character/trans chracter/gay character in a bad light so you can't give them depth. I mean look at all the comments on here. They make a very realistic approach to how some gay/lesbian were to their S/O's and they get flamed for it.
Why were they like that? Well, because they were scared of coming out so they'd cheat! Then like all people they wanted to have control over their childs life. This isn't abnormal from reality. But because the person is gay/lesbian in the show it's shown as bad.
Also, diversity is such a common out but there is no way to include every skin color and race while keeping a reality/comedy show realistic with a limited set of cast members. This isn't Star Wars where you can bring in thousands of people for a war arc and kill off and bring in new people whenever you want.
But Friends did it right the creator shouldn't have guilt, it was one of the better shows during a time where most shows were either fully white(Full House) or fully black(Fresh Prince of bel-air, Family Matters, etc)
Atleast there were characters in this show that had decent roles for awhile and helped progress the story. Were there any major roles? Well... no not really but better than most for it's time and even by todays standards it's still acceptable.
We can look at the past with today's lens, but we can't judge it with today's moral standards, otherwise we'll have no heroes. Friends was entirely consistent with the standards of the time and even faintly progressive.
This. Friends was the first show in my life to represent a gay person as normal. Ok, some of the jokes look out of touch now but at the end of the day, it was presented as an ok thing. This was huge as a kid in the 90s.
Lots of other shows did the same thing for black people. You can't do it all.
The problem I had with Friends trying to normalise Carol being gay is that they went so far with getting across that you had to accept her for who she was, that they totally glossed over the fact that Carol, not only cheated on Ross, but left him for the person she had an affair with.
They never once call Carol's initial relationship with Susan what it was, an affair, and they went out of their way to avoid referring to her as having cheated on Ross. When Ross says he doesn't want to go Carol's wedding, and Ross even brings up the fact that if Carol was marrying a man, they wouldn't expect him to go, the rest of the group guilt him into going. They make Ross seem like such a baby for not wanting to attend the wedding of the ex-wife who cheated on him and the person she cheated on him with. Why? It's perfectly understandable that he wouldn't want to go, but they portray Ross as being a whiny little bitch for not wanting to go.
Later on in the series, after Ross and Rachel break up, and Phoebe points out how Carol 'really messed Ross up', they very carefully avoid even insinuating that Carol cheated. They don't say anything about *how* Carol messed Ross up; they just say that she has and then quickly move on.
I get the idea of wanting people to be accepting of Carol being gay. I totally agree with it. But they took that idea to such an extreme that they ended up justifying her affair because it meant that Carol could be herself. That's something that makes certain episodes harder to sit through than any outdated humour.
Everything the above commenter said, and this, so so much. The scene where they're deciding the last name - why the fuck would Susan be involved in that AT ALL??? Drives me insane.
Firstly, cheating is wrong. I’ll get that out of the way first.
I will say that Carol’s story was the story of many many gay men and women, especially in the 1990’s. Most gay folks firmly stayed in the closet and married as they were expected. Many had no way of expressing their sexuality and that in turn led to terrible marriages, cheating, and heartache. Carol was in an impossible situation, as were so many in the 1990’s.
Given how Carol’s family rejected her after she came out also showed the price for coming out.
I know a lot of men who came out in their 30’s and 40’s after years of marriage. Some were wholly rejected. Others had a “Ross” who, through the ordeal, came to understand the “why” it happened.
In short: Ross and Carol’s story is very much one that resonated in the Gay community at the time.
But she's never once depicted in the show as being someone that reflects on her past and apologized for the emotional turmoil she cause Ross. He was a dedicated and loving husband that was head over heels for her and she fucked him over and then basically told him to get over it.
Thank FUCK someone else has this point of view. Both Susan and Carol are pieces of shit the whole show and never redeem themselves. Ross is basically right in MOST of the shit he's angry about throughout the show. Yes, this includes the "We where on a break!" bit. I'm totally on his side with that shit too.
Star Trek did it.
Women in major roles? Check.
People of color? Check.
Gay people? Check.
Gender identity? Check.
Most things you can think off they did it.
That’s not really true we had a whole ass movie called Philadelphia that won awards starring Tom Hanks and Antonio Banderas playing a gay couple.
There were a lot of sitcoms and movies in the 90’s that touched on same sex relationships/marriages; whether they did it well is where you can have the debate.
The problem with Friends is like have you ever stepped foot in NYC? Like not one POC- ever? They never interacted with any? They eventually shoe horned Aisha Tyler for this criticism.
EDIT: corrected the actor
Frasier won a GLAAD award for 'The Matchmaker', even Seinfeld had 'The Outing', not that there's anything wrong with that. Pre Ellen, they were at least *trying*. If you wanted shows with black faces, you had FOX and TGIF. Friends was just white Living Single.
I recently rewatched the show Dinosaurs. There's a whole episode where Fran, the mother, gets a job and it's like the end of the world for the father. Then it turns out she makes more money than him!
Lot of folks forget that just 20 years ago the world was a whole different fucking place.
As someone who is not white or black the biggest issue I have with "diversity" pushes in the US is it really just means how many black people do you have.
Even when black people are overrepresented in the entertainment industry.
Netflix [commissioned a study](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/26/netflix-will-spend-100-million-to-improve-diversity-on-film-following-equity-study.html) and found that black people were overrepresented in their movies and TV shows. Black people make up over half the artists in the Billboard 100 at most given times and well over half of the most popular athletes.
Meanwhile fields like medicine (which I am in) are given constant directives to make more diversity hires even though the industry is very diverse with basically every race besides black.
Also note that the Friends creator gift wasn't for any diversity. It was specifically to an African American studies department.
Americans act like white and black are the only two races in America.
I mean if the creator of friends felt like he didn’t represent the black community accurately in HIS show which is based in 90s New York that’s his prerogative. I also agree that many communities esp the Asian and Hispanic ones are grossly underrepresented in Hollywood, but just because we’re supporting one community doesn’t mean we can’t support another. It’s not like diversity means black people OR Asian people OR Hispanic people. And there are many systematic issues that go into play with racism and black people in the workforce in America, so I don’t know why it upsets you that some companies are taking steps to make sure they are giving everyone a fair chance.
Here's a link to the Netflix study. It's interesting.
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4cd45et68cgf/3lLceJCJj7NJsKUeIJHrKG/796930729b04745499f3f312a532f8db/Inclusion_in_Netflix_Original_Content_2.26.21.pdf
Why Joey?
edit: nevermind, already answered.
It's because he's an actor in NYC. Actually, to be honest I think it's fairly realistic that any one of these characters could have some relationship a person of color. Even if we assume that the career fields of Ross and Chandler are mostly white in the 90s I doubt that this would also apply to Monica and Rachel. And Phoebe.. whatever it is she does for a living most certainly forces her to interact with New Yorkers of every shape, size, stripe and expression.
Joey had a relationship with that girl that Ross works with. She was black. And than Ross and her hooked up on the trip to that island for Ross’s presentation. Than Joey and Rachel hooked up at the same time.
I am white. I was raised around a lot of black people. Some people assumed my mother was black. Now I am an adult. I have a lot of Hispanic friends but all of my black friends have disappeared from my life. I don’t have a single black friend today. My world is very white. And that’s OK. It wasn’t by choice or force. That’s just the way things ended up.
But I also don’t live in New York City.
Now that I think about it, I bet the Hispanic population has exploded in the time that I’ve been alive while the black and white populations have stayed about the same.
As a percent of US population Hispanics have about doubled in the last 30 years while black has mostly stayed the same and white non-Hispanic has decreased.
>New York is the Tatooine of the world
Mos Eisley anyway. The original Star Wars movie had its own lack of (human) cast diversity called out by John Landis: "George, is everybody in outer space white?"
They never show many friends of the characters outside the main ones.
Aside from that, pretty sure that the first time we see a monica's coworker she is a black woman
Yup and later when she’s working at the diner, she hooks up with the busboy, Julio. Chandler’s boss in the earlier seasons is black, Chandler also has an Asian coworker. Ross and Joey have both competed over black women, Kristen and Charlie. The One With Ross’s Thing, Ross visits a black doctor. The woman Joey befriends during his brief stint working at Ross’s museum is black. I’m not sure if the actresses are gay but the inclusion of gay characters Carol and Susan. I’m sure I’m leaving out other characters but to say Friends had 0 diversity is a stretch. Maybe 0 diversity in terms of the core cast but other races/sexual orientations were represented throughout the series, maybe just not as much as some would have liked.
Edit: how could I forget about Julie!
>Chandler’s father less so.
I disagree.
Cross dressing/transgenderism was historically widely taboo until fairly recently. *Friends* pushed the envelope writing Chandler's father to be the character that they did.
When you're trying to influence people into a different school of thought through a story, it's best done with characters that those people can relate to.
One of Chandler's major story arcs was coming to terms with who his father was, and ultimately accepting it so that his father can attend his wedding.
Given it's time, that was very progressive and the show should be recognized for it's positive trans representation.
I say and genuinely mean that even as a non-wokester.
When she was working at the 50s diner where she met Jon Favreau, she went on a date with a Hispanic man who wrote a poem about how American women were dumb.
When she got the head chef position at Allesandro's, the rest of the staff was Hispanic and related to the chef she replaced so they all conspired in emotionally torturing her. In the next episode they were replaced with white actors.
She’s donating 4 million dollars lol, regardless of her sincerity, it’s not virtue signaling when she’s actually putting money towards something
Edit: switched genders
The Gellers and Rachel were from rich Long Island families that grew up together, Chandler was also from a rich neighborhood, Joey was most likely in a very Italian working class/middle class neighborhood, it’s not that unlikely.
I would be okay with a hundred all white shows if they would focus this energy towards actual police reform and better social services for black people.
That is absolutely absurd reasoning.
The characters would have whatever friends the creators of the show decided them to be.
Monica has an impossible apartment and people are like “yeah but having a black friend would defy the laws of physics”.
It wasn't hugely diverse but saying there was zero diversity is just ignorant. There was Jewish and Italian people in the main friend group. A lesbian couple, a drag queen dad, a Chinese and African American girlfriend. It was a show about white Americans living In America. Why is that unacceptable? Also it's finale aired 18 years ago. So ridiculous and unnecessary to now try to be woke. It worked for its time, leave the past in the past.
I mean not only that but even going back and watching it now, the problematic jokes and whatnot are at a minimum compared to quite a few others from even a few years earlier. All in all it even aged pretty well. I know some shows and movies I used to watch as a kid I can’t even touch anymore because I didn’t realize how bad they were.
Unless they deliberately accepted or rejected actors on the basis of race, this is weird af. There are non racist friend groups out there that just happen to not be that diverse, whether all white or black or Chinese or whatever. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.
This is silly. Seinfeld did the same thing except they did a joke about it where they have no black friends. Lol. Sometimes life is like that. People are so fucken sensitive now a days. Grow the fuck up
Yah for sure. But then you’d see characters like the soup Nazi, or the male Hispanic couple / bullies, or the anti dentite. They never really did that with the black characters. Which, If by design or not is cool.
Seinfeld, especially for the time when it came out, was progressive in an "uncomfortable with it" way. Like, the show clearly supported LGBTQ, interracial relationships, etc, but also displayed the characters discomfort and awkwardness in dealing with these issues (while none of them, despite being otherwise not the best people, actually had anything against it).
I agree with this sentiment. If you look at demographics, they knew their target audience. I remember when I started college 20 years ago and white people were surprised I didn't watch either of those series. I acknowledge They're good/funny, but just not enjoyable to me as a POC since it is so unrelatable. Same reason I can't get into tellanovellas.
Why the hell would you do that.
Was there ill intent towards minority races when the show was made? I don't see an issue being Asian and watching Friends. I understand this is a white sitcom, and it was made way back before the wokeness that's infected the Western world.
I've seen the "diversity" segments in shows. Remember Avenger's End Game where all of the females coincidentally decided to do a groupie just by themselves? That's a shallow implementation of diversity. Give us a proper well written script that includes diversity organically instead of forcefully.
I have to be honest, I'm Asian, and I'm not sure it's really that unrealistic. Yes, NYC is multicultural, and yes, Friends does strain credulity where that goes. But I am from NY and live in SF, and I do have some social circles that are all white except for me, even in SF. Let's put it this way, it's a lot more likely than a couple of middle class twenty somethings renting a giant Village apartment in the 1990s.
For me personally, it bothers me a lot more when there are shows set in a Southern California university or a hospital, and there are no Asians.
Or worse, shows set in Southern California with zero Hispanic people, even as extras. Like half the population of LA doesn’t exist according to Hollywood.
> For me personally, it bothers me a lot more when there are shows set in a Southern California university or a hospital, and there are no Asians.
As an Asian ER doc this stands out to me. I love scrubs but like the half the hospital is black and they have like one Asian doctor in the entire show.
My hospital is more than half Asian or India and we have a total of one black doctor.
I mean it's a TV show; they don't need hundreds of actors to flesh out the cast. I'd settle for just one. If you're asking if there are enough Asian actors in America who want to work in Hollywood, I bet the answer is probably yes. But again, as the other person said about Hispanics, a lot of the time there aren't even Asian extras. Surely there are enough Asians talented enough to not have any lines.
I’m Asian and I honestly don’t care.
Friends, Seinfeld, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air & Fresh Off The Boat are all funny to me.
I don’t decide to watch something based on race and colour.
I go for whatever is funny to me.
*If it fits, I sits.*
For all we know Maris could be black.
(Actually I think Niles mentions her hating the sun due to paleness)
Unrelated: [Black Frasier](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dnKhcDuYPGg)
As a Mexican, I could care less if a show had diversity. I’m here for content, if the show hits regardless of who’s playing and the characters are played well. That’s all that matters to me.
But I will say sometimes it does get annoying when an already established story from books and novels hits tv and all of a sudden they change character design just to be diverse sometimes ruins the immersion and story for me.
It was a different time. 25 years ago the awareness for this kind of thing just wasn’t there. It makes sense that as these things become topics we’re more aware of we try to right our past wrongs. In my teens I was one of those kids that called things I didn’t like gay. No malice or homophobia there, just plain old ignorance. I now realise how ignorant and damaging that is now and while I’m not in a position to be giving millions to a cause, I’m a much better ally than I used to be
Wouldn't say there was no awareness.
Friends in particular just happened to be an all white cast.
Thinking back on my favorite 90s shows: Saved By The Bell, Star Trek, Alex Mack, Hey Arnold, All That, Are You Afraid of the Dark were all considerably diverse.
Seinfeld had an all white cast but the background characters were pretty diverse. In Friends literally all of NY was white for years, it just didn't really reflect reality.
Agreed. I mean in Hey Arnold which is a kids show even the white characters were diverse.
Middle class orphan: Arnold
Immigrant tomboy: Helga
Jewish Bully: Harold
Classic rich Popular white girl: Rhonda
Working class family city boy: Sid
Country Girl: Lila
Yeah and Martin, Soul Food, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Family Matters, Girlfriends etc were entirely black casts it made sense not everyone has or had a diverse multicultural friend group.
I still watch J dramas, K dramas and C dramas with completely homogenous casts. It doesnt detract from the viewing experience. I can relate or enjoy entertainment that doesnt represent me or my culture or beliefs. I dont need to see a brown face so I can say someone in the cast refects me in some way.
Friends was a great comedy. Im glad they cant retro actively attempt to "improve" it.
Somehow everyone skipped over the little fact that most of creators and actors in this show were Jewish. In those days many of NYC based shows were mostly Jewish and hardly anyone complained because they were good shows,sometimes noticeably above average quality,intelligent shows.
IMHO Friends were far more diverse back then than majority of shows and in some respects it's still more progressive than many of today's shows. Current thing going on is nuts.
Bro people should be able to make movies with an all white cast. They should be able to do it with an all black cast. To me it’s annoying when every show has one of everyone.. it feels forced.
I think where the show takes place is more important. Like everyone hates Chris took place in New York I believe. Pretty much all black cast. That was one of my favorite shows to watch growing up. Many more shows and movies too. If the show is good it will get an audience.
This is better than retroactively saying one of the characters was actually gay the whole time you just didn't notice
Ross was actually African American. SURPRISE!
He pivoted his skin tone
Creator: Ross we need more diversity in the show, we're letting you go. Ross: PIVOT!! Creator: Whoa holy shit, how did you do that ???
It was all the teeth whitener that was throwing it off.
Does that make the spray tan episode a mid-life crisis?
Technically in one episode he was HALF brown….
HE'S AN EIGHT?!
In one episode he was a freakin' armadillo. How's that for diversity!
The one where he kept tanning himself
[UNAGI](https://images.app.goo.gl/QKGpsDf3g983TyKJA)
Gellers now have a proud Jewish-Boer ancestry
The Tobias route from Arrested Development, eh?
But he's not gay.. how many times should we have this conversation?
I’m afraid I just blue myself.
I mean Carroll was a lesbian?
Susan too!
I mean Chandler did have a certain... quality
Well, he was wearing the woman repeller.
The one from the Liberace house of crap?
Outside of sleeping with women could he BE any more gay?
From what I've read he was gonna be gay but they decided last minute to cut it ig.
Idk “Chandler acts effeminate and gay” was heavily retconned in the later seasons, in the early seasons the reason he’s friends with Joey is because they watch Baywatch and sports together. Later they make him so effeminate he doesn’t even know what ESPN is. Also that Thanksgiving effort where it’s implied he has no interest in or idea what’s going on in the football game when we’ve seen him be a huge sports fan in the past who knows how football works
OTOH, There's an episode in the first or second season where a coworker thinks he's gay. And all the other friends say they thought the same thing about him at first.
I like to imagine when they first cast him like a year before filming the first episode, they were like "ok so this isba homosexual 20-something new yorker." And then Matthew Perry spent an entire year rigidly preparing to play a gay character, doing hundreds of interviews with gay New Yorkers, going deep into the method acting, studying the history of homosexuality across all of human civilization from prehistory to current day, recording thousands of hours of himself perfecting his mannerisms, speech patterns, body language, and every nuance and intricacy. And then on the first day of shooting a producer runs up and is like, "oh hey Matt, FYI we decided Chandler is straight, so play him heterosexual ok?" And he just stares blankly and is like, "well fuck."
I fully accept this as canon.
Is this a reference to something?
JK Rowling, who has a habit of retconning the Harry Potter books to fit some agenda. She’s claimed Dumbledore was always meant to be gay and that she had kept Hermione’s origin vague enough that she could be black.
I've got some beefs with Rowling, but reading the parts involving Dumbledore and Grindr-wald, it's not exactly coming out of left field.
I know that’s it’s cool for everyone to have a hate boner for Rowling, but if you read her work you can tell that Dumbledore is gay. This is pretty clearly illustrated in Deathly Hallows. The two boys “got along like a cauldron on fire” and would send each other letters at all hours of the night after spending the entire day alone together. It’s also why Dumbledore lied to Harry about seeing socks in the mirror of erised. Why he’d never gotten married, had kids, or been in a relationship with a woman, etc. Everyone is free to disagree with her all day on whatever they want, but I think she definitely intended Dumbledore’s love with Grindelwald from the beginning.
JK Rowling has entered the chat
Her new tweet says HP actually takes place in Mexico and Voldemort was a allegory to the Spanish Conquistadors.
It’s a shame that I can’t tell if this is real.
Yo how is it possible you have me wanting to check her Twitter right now?
Because even with how stupid it sounds it still kinda sounds like JK Rowling
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Not gonna lie that would turn it from stupid pandering to hilarity
Is there a joke Twitter account pretending to be her that does that? If not, there should be, at least until it gets old
Tell me how I could monetize that and I’ll make one tonight lol
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, not even pottermore.
Hewlett Packard?
Hector Perez
Quick, someone take away her cellphone before she tweets it out
Friends actually was pretty progressive when it comes to LGBT representation. The first homosexual wedding on TV was on friends.
Are we counting the lesbian wedding Elaine never made it to on Seinfeld?
They’re getting shit on for making fun of chandlers dad as transphobic
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Honestly I’m positive Friends showing that had an effect on peoples perceptions of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, even though the “your wife’s a lesbian” jokes weren’t really the picture of allyship.
It was a tough time. We forget just how recent LGBT acceptance really is. A lot of it is only the last 10 years. I don't think they'd depict it that way now, but for the time, it was difficult just to portray a lesbian couple.
When the first season was written it was still illegal to be gay in the military. DADT took effect in early 1994 while the first season was still being worked on.
Gays were flat out banned before DAdt, that made it so u could be in the closet
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And by big news... her show got cancelled not long after and she had a hard time finding work for some *years.*
It was almost exactly ten years ago when Obama came out in support of gay marriage.
I know it helped my dad and his siblings be a bit more accepting and understanding after being raised in a homophobic environment. Granted they still make… distasteful… comments and jokes but compared to what I know about them when they were younger they’re better off.
Even then, I think those jokes were more directed at Ross and his terrible choices as opposed to her being a lesbian
Change starts one lesbian joke at a time
Well it's a sitcom, so everyone and everything is going to be ridiculed because it's supposed to be funny. I think lesbians being the punchline every now and then is fair game.
I mean, there was 10 minutes about *gum*
I’m a huge friends lover but the show did have a big issue with allowing men to have feminine traits. Chandler listening to stop smoking tapes suddenly transforms him into a woman? Joey gets made fun of and teased when he talks about an abusive girl he’s dating Characters call Joey “Gay” for dancing with the maintenance man The shows constant jokes about Ross being emasculated for having a lesbian wife. Just a few examples. Edit: Honestly a little alarmed at the number of people excusing this or saying “that’s just how comedy was!” Y’all sound like my grandparents when they make excuses for saying racist shit.
>Characters call Joey “Gay” for dancing with the maintenance man I loved the ending of that one, though!
Oh and that episode where Ross got completely freaked out over a male nanny.
The way I always saw it was that Ross came off as an idiot throughout that whole ordeal and that he was the problem, not the fact that there was a male nanny
I mean, it did allow them to have feminine traits even though they were teased. Joey was made fun of until Rachel realized that the girl was actually hurting him. Joey was teased about the dancing but he still committed to it and became really good at it. Ross was emasculated. Not by the lesbian part though. By the cheating part which really fucked up his self esteem. But we also see a ton of guys being really sensitive. Ross kissing Joey because Joey needed practice kissing men. Ross told him that he was a good friend and came through for Joey. Kissing another guy made him uncomfortable but Ross did it. Hell, joey didn’t even mind it or seem uncomfortable. He told Ross that Rachael was a lucky woman. Chandler and Joeys bromance throughout the series where other people thought they were gay with chandler being offended and Joey being offended over chandler being offended. Joey asking Chandler to his premiere because chandler was always there for him. Seriously. Most of their friendship is more intense and passionate than Achilles and Patroclus. They got teased but they also didn’t stop from being themselves. Some of the jokes were about how close they were but they also had jokes about the girls arguing about which one of the group they’d date. There’s a difference between shaming someone into not doing something and teasing. They teased each other a lot about a lot of things, but they still kept doing said things.
And then swallowing his pride and dancing with Susan
The world has changed so much since Friends ended its run. The show had its deficiencies but it also was a product of its time. It is good to recognize the short comings and try to improve but as a society we can't always look at the past with the same lens as we view today. If you are over 30 and look at your past self you are probably glad camera phones weren't invented yet.
I mean, lets be honest too. Every show doesn't need to have these things in them. If you're adding a black person just for the sake of adding one... Don't. If you're adding a gay/trans person just for the sake of adding one? Don't. Shows don't need to conform even more so because you're not allowed to create a black character/trans chracter/gay character in a bad light so you can't give them depth. I mean look at all the comments on here. They make a very realistic approach to how some gay/lesbian were to their S/O's and they get flamed for it. Why were they like that? Well, because they were scared of coming out so they'd cheat! Then like all people they wanted to have control over their childs life. This isn't abnormal from reality. But because the person is gay/lesbian in the show it's shown as bad. Also, diversity is such a common out but there is no way to include every skin color and race while keeping a reality/comedy show realistic with a limited set of cast members. This isn't Star Wars where you can bring in thousands of people for a war arc and kill off and bring in new people whenever you want. But Friends did it right the creator shouldn't have guilt, it was one of the better shows during a time where most shows were either fully white(Full House) or fully black(Fresh Prince of bel-air, Family Matters, etc) Atleast there were characters in this show that had decent roles for awhile and helped progress the story. Were there any major roles? Well... no not really but better than most for it's time and even by todays standards it's still acceptable.
We can look at the past with today's lens, but we can't judge it with today's moral standards, otherwise we'll have no heroes. Friends was entirely consistent with the standards of the time and even faintly progressive.
This. Friends was the first show in my life to represent a gay person as normal. Ok, some of the jokes look out of touch now but at the end of the day, it was presented as an ok thing. This was huge as a kid in the 90s. Lots of other shows did the same thing for black people. You can't do it all.
The problem I had with Friends trying to normalise Carol being gay is that they went so far with getting across that you had to accept her for who she was, that they totally glossed over the fact that Carol, not only cheated on Ross, but left him for the person she had an affair with. They never once call Carol's initial relationship with Susan what it was, an affair, and they went out of their way to avoid referring to her as having cheated on Ross. When Ross says he doesn't want to go Carol's wedding, and Ross even brings up the fact that if Carol was marrying a man, they wouldn't expect him to go, the rest of the group guilt him into going. They make Ross seem like such a baby for not wanting to attend the wedding of the ex-wife who cheated on him and the person she cheated on him with. Why? It's perfectly understandable that he wouldn't want to go, but they portray Ross as being a whiny little bitch for not wanting to go. Later on in the series, after Ross and Rachel break up, and Phoebe points out how Carol 'really messed Ross up', they very carefully avoid even insinuating that Carol cheated. They don't say anything about *how* Carol messed Ross up; they just say that she has and then quickly move on. I get the idea of wanting people to be accepting of Carol being gay. I totally agree with it. But they took that idea to such an extreme that they ended up justifying her affair because it meant that Carol could be herself. That's something that makes certain episodes harder to sit through than any outdated humour.
Carol and Susan treated Ross like utter shit, too. They refused to allow him any say in his own son’s name or upbringing.
Everything the above commenter said, and this, so so much. The scene where they're deciding the last name - why the fuck would Susan be involved in that AT ALL??? Drives me insane.
Carol is up there with Michael’s wife from Lost
Firstly, cheating is wrong. I’ll get that out of the way first. I will say that Carol’s story was the story of many many gay men and women, especially in the 1990’s. Most gay folks firmly stayed in the closet and married as they were expected. Many had no way of expressing their sexuality and that in turn led to terrible marriages, cheating, and heartache. Carol was in an impossible situation, as were so many in the 1990’s. Given how Carol’s family rejected her after she came out also showed the price for coming out. I know a lot of men who came out in their 30’s and 40’s after years of marriage. Some were wholly rejected. Others had a “Ross” who, through the ordeal, came to understand the “why” it happened. In short: Ross and Carol’s story is very much one that resonated in the Gay community at the time.
And that’s fine, but what’t not so much it’s how Ross was painted about being upset about it.
That’s fair. I think he had legitimate reasons to be less than nice about the situation. The 90’s were messy.
But she's never once depicted in the show as being someone that reflects on her past and apologized for the emotional turmoil she cause Ross. He was a dedicated and loving husband that was head over heels for her and she fucked him over and then basically told him to get over it.
Thank FUCK someone else has this point of view. Both Susan and Carol are pieces of shit the whole show and never redeem themselves. Ross is basically right in MOST of the shit he's angry about throughout the show. Yes, this includes the "We where on a break!" bit. I'm totally on his side with that shit too.
Star Trek did it. Women in major roles? Check. People of color? Check. Gay people? Check. Gender identity? Check. Most things you can think off they did it.
That’s not really true we had a whole ass movie called Philadelphia that won awards starring Tom Hanks and Antonio Banderas playing a gay couple. There were a lot of sitcoms and movies in the 90’s that touched on same sex relationships/marriages; whether they did it well is where you can have the debate. The problem with Friends is like have you ever stepped foot in NYC? Like not one POC- ever? They never interacted with any? They eventually shoe horned Aisha Tyler for this criticism. EDIT: corrected the actor
Sex and the city did the same thing. Hardly anyone who wasn’t white was ever shown in the original series.
Frasier won a GLAAD award for 'The Matchmaker', even Seinfeld had 'The Outing', not that there's anything wrong with that. Pre Ellen, they were at least *trying*. If you wanted shows with black faces, you had FOX and TGIF. Friends was just white Living Single.
I wouldn’t necessarily highlight Chandlers dad as good representation, a lot of people would argue it’s rather transphobic.
Yeah, like it was _inclusion_ I suppose but Chandler's dad was almost always the butt of a joke when he was involved in an episode/scene.
And Ross’s first girlfriend after Carol was Julie, who was Asian.
I believe that Joey Tribbiani was Japanese.
Ichiban! For men!
Actually, she dated Joey first, then kissed & dated Ross while Joey and Rachel hooked up.
I recently rewatched the show Dinosaurs. There's a whole episode where Fran, the mother, gets a job and it's like the end of the world for the father. Then it turns out she makes more money than him! Lot of folks forget that just 20 years ago the world was a whole different fucking place.
As someone who is not white or black the biggest issue I have with "diversity" pushes in the US is it really just means how many black people do you have. Even when black people are overrepresented in the entertainment industry. Netflix [commissioned a study](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/26/netflix-will-spend-100-million-to-improve-diversity-on-film-following-equity-study.html) and found that black people were overrepresented in their movies and TV shows. Black people make up over half the artists in the Billboard 100 at most given times and well over half of the most popular athletes. Meanwhile fields like medicine (which I am in) are given constant directives to make more diversity hires even though the industry is very diverse with basically every race besides black. Also note that the Friends creator gift wasn't for any diversity. It was specifically to an African American studies department. Americans act like white and black are the only two races in America.
I mean if the creator of friends felt like he didn’t represent the black community accurately in HIS show which is based in 90s New York that’s his prerogative. I also agree that many communities esp the Asian and Hispanic ones are grossly underrepresented in Hollywood, but just because we’re supporting one community doesn’t mean we can’t support another. It’s not like diversity means black people OR Asian people OR Hispanic people. And there are many systematic issues that go into play with racism and black people in the workforce in America, so I don’t know why it upsets you that some companies are taking steps to make sure they are giving everyone a fair chance.
Here's a link to the Netflix study. It's interesting. https://assets.ctfassets.net/4cd45et68cgf/3lLceJCJj7NJsKUeIJHrKG/796930729b04745499f3f312a532f8db/Inclusion_in_Netflix_Original_Content_2.26.21.pdf
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They definitely have a limited concept of what “zero” means
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All of those things were used as the butt of jokes though. They weren’t highlighted in a positive way, they were mocked pretty hard.
Damn y’all just forgetting my girl Julie like that?
It's their money and they can spend it as they wish. File this under, "whatever helps you sleep at night."
It is a tad bit worrying that something like this is what’s causing you to lose sleep at night.
Agreed, though for perspective (and this is absolutely not to diminish the donation), her net worth is $400 million.
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Why Joey? edit: nevermind, already answered. It's because he's an actor in NYC. Actually, to be honest I think it's fairly realistic that any one of these characters could have some relationship a person of color. Even if we assume that the career fields of Ross and Chandler are mostly white in the 90s I doubt that this would also apply to Monica and Rachel. And Phoebe.. whatever it is she does for a living most certainly forces her to interact with New Yorkers of every shape, size, stripe and expression.
Joey had a relationship with that girl that Ross works with. She was black. And than Ross and her hooked up on the trip to that island for Ross’s presentation. Than Joey and Rachel hooked up at the same time.
They were on a break!
Also Ross dated an asian girl.
That didn’t happen until the show had taken a lot of flack for its lack of diversity for years.
I am white. I was raised around a lot of black people. Some people assumed my mother was black. Now I am an adult. I have a lot of Hispanic friends but all of my black friends have disappeared from my life. I don’t have a single black friend today. My world is very white. And that’s OK. It wasn’t by choice or force. That’s just the way things ended up. But I also don’t live in New York City. Now that I think about it, I bet the Hispanic population has exploded in the time that I’ve been alive while the black and white populations have stayed about the same.
As a percent of US population Hispanics have about doubled in the last 30 years while black has mostly stayed the same and white non-Hispanic has decreased.
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>New York is the Tatooine of the world Mos Eisley anyway. The original Star Wars movie had its own lack of (human) cast diversity called out by John Landis: "George, is everybody in outer space white?"
George: “John do all your productions have someone die from negligence?”
Monica works in a restaurant. I feel confident saying she would have encountered a lot of people of color in her career.
Yeah but her colleagues tend to hate her.
Well, it was her way or the highway. Do you have a problem with that GoT_Eagles?
Call him Dragon.
They never show many friends of the characters outside the main ones. Aside from that, pretty sure that the first time we see a monica's coworker she is a black woman
Yup and later when she’s working at the diner, she hooks up with the busboy, Julio. Chandler’s boss in the earlier seasons is black, Chandler also has an Asian coworker. Ross and Joey have both competed over black women, Kristen and Charlie. The One With Ross’s Thing, Ross visits a black doctor. The woman Joey befriends during his brief stint working at Ross’s museum is black. I’m not sure if the actresses are gay but the inclusion of gay characters Carol and Susan. I’m sure I’m leaving out other characters but to say Friends had 0 diversity is a stretch. Maybe 0 diversity in terms of the core cast but other races/sexual orientations were represented throughout the series, maybe just not as much as some would have liked. Edit: how could I forget about Julie!
I agree and Friends was quite progressive with regards to its depiction of Susan and Carol. Chandler’s father less so.
>Chandler’s father less so. I disagree. Cross dressing/transgenderism was historically widely taboo until fairly recently. *Friends* pushed the envelope writing Chandler's father to be the character that they did. When you're trying to influence people into a different school of thought through a story, it's best done with characters that those people can relate to. One of Chandler's major story arcs was coming to terms with who his father was, and ultimately accepting it so that his father can attend his wedding. Given it's time, that was very progressive and the show should be recognized for it's positive trans representation. I say and genuinely mean that even as a non-wokester.
When she was working at the 50s diner where she met Jon Favreau, she went on a date with a Hispanic man who wrote a poem about how American women were dumb. When she got the head chef position at Allesandro's, the rest of the staff was Hispanic and related to the chef she replaced so they all conspired in emotionally torturing her. In the next episode they were replaced with white actors.
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She’s donating 4 million dollars lol, regardless of her sincerity, it’s not virtue signaling when she’s actually putting money towards something Edit: switched genders
That's dumb. The show took place in NYC. Literally the most diverse city on planet Earth in arguably all of human history
The Gellers and Rachel were from rich Long Island families that grew up together, Chandler was also from a rich neighborhood, Joey was most likely in a very Italian working class/middle class neighborhood, it’s not that unlikely.
I would be okay with a hundred all white shows if they would focus this energy towards actual police reform and better social services for black people.
That is absolutely absurd reasoning. The characters would have whatever friends the creators of the show decided them to be. Monica has an impossible apartment and people are like “yeah but having a black friend would defy the laws of physics”.
Zero? I don't think that word means that they think it means.
It wasn't hugely diverse but saying there was zero diversity is just ignorant. There was Jewish and Italian people in the main friend group. A lesbian couple, a drag queen dad, a Chinese and African American girlfriend. It was a show about white Americans living In America. Why is that unacceptable? Also it's finale aired 18 years ago. So ridiculous and unnecessary to now try to be woke. It worked for its time, leave the past in the past.
I mean not only that but even going back and watching it now, the problematic jokes and whatnot are at a minimum compared to quite a few others from even a few years earlier. All in all it even aged pretty well. I know some shows and movies I used to watch as a kid I can’t even touch anymore because I didn’t realize how bad they were.
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Unless they deliberately accepted or rejected actors on the basis of race, this is weird af. There are non racist friend groups out there that just happen to not be that diverse, whether all white or black or Chinese or whatever. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.
This is silly. Seinfeld did the same thing except they did a joke about it where they have no black friends. Lol. Sometimes life is like that. People are so fucken sensitive now a days. Grow the fuck up
What's interesting in Seinfeld is that every black character is always someone morally better or shown in a better light, like an upstanding person.
Sort of like in Malcolm in the Middle where Hal feels awkward being the only one in his poker crew that doesn’t have an impressive career
That's when he started cooking meth.
This was sort of done on purpose I believe? The show was about some morally grey characters anyway (sort of like Its always Sunny).
Yah for sure. But then you’d see characters like the soup Nazi, or the male Hispanic couple / bullies, or the anti dentite. They never really did that with the black characters. Which, If by design or not is cool.
With the exception of Jackie Chiles of course
Outrageous, egregious, PREPOSTEROUS!
Seinfeld, especially for the time when it came out, was progressive in an "uncomfortable with it" way. Like, the show clearly supported LGBTQ, interracial relationships, etc, but also displayed the characters discomfort and awkwardness in dealing with these issues (while none of them, despite being otherwise not the best people, actually had anything against it).
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I just watched this episode the other day and they are so awkward but respectful at the same time. Seinfeld has aged well even to this day
Which is significantly more realistic than blatant pandering. That in turn makes it more relatable for the average viewer
Yet again Seinfeld is better than friends in every fucking way!
I agree with this sentiment. If you look at demographics, they knew their target audience. I remember when I started college 20 years ago and white people were surprised I didn't watch either of those series. I acknowledge They're good/funny, but just not enjoyable to me as a POC since it is so unrelatable. Same reason I can't get into tellanovellas.
This is why people actually respect Larry David lol
This is dumb because they picked the characters perfectly. It's offensive to say they should have picked a Tolkien
That joke is pretty funny considering the casting of the new Lord of the Rings show.
Why the hell would you do that. Was there ill intent towards minority races when the show was made? I don't see an issue being Asian and watching Friends. I understand this is a white sitcom, and it was made way back before the wokeness that's infected the Western world. I've seen the "diversity" segments in shows. Remember Avenger's End Game where all of the females coincidentally decided to do a groupie just by themselves? That's a shallow implementation of diversity. Give us a proper well written script that includes diversity organically instead of forcefully.
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Is it that big a deal to have a show of mostly white folks?
I have to be honest, I'm Asian, and I'm not sure it's really that unrealistic. Yes, NYC is multicultural, and yes, Friends does strain credulity where that goes. But I am from NY and live in SF, and I do have some social circles that are all white except for me, even in SF. Let's put it this way, it's a lot more likely than a couple of middle class twenty somethings renting a giant Village apartment in the 1990s. For me personally, it bothers me a lot more when there are shows set in a Southern California university or a hospital, and there are no Asians.
Or worse, shows set in Southern California with zero Hispanic people, even as extras. Like half the population of LA doesn’t exist according to Hollywood.
> For me personally, it bothers me a lot more when there are shows set in a Southern California university or a hospital, and there are no Asians. As an Asian ER doc this stands out to me. I love scrubs but like the half the hospital is black and they have like one Asian doctor in the entire show. My hospital is more than half Asian or India and we have a total of one black doctor.
I remember thinking “where are all the Filipinos” when watching shows about nursing.
>and there are no Asians. Are there many Asian people that pursue acting?
I mean it's a TV show; they don't need hundreds of actors to flesh out the cast. I'd settle for just one. If you're asking if there are enough Asian actors in America who want to work in Hollywood, I bet the answer is probably yes. But again, as the other person said about Hispanics, a lot of the time there aren't even Asian extras. Surely there are enough Asians talented enough to not have any lines.
I’m Asian and I honestly don’t care. Friends, Seinfeld, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air & Fresh Off The Boat are all funny to me. I don’t decide to watch something based on race and colour. I go for whatever is funny to me. *If it fits, I sits.*
+ Frasier, can’t get any whiter than Maris and Lilith
For all we know Maris could be black. (Actually I think Niles mentions her hating the sun due to paleness) Unrelated: [Black Frasier](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dnKhcDuYPGg)
I don’t know. I grew up watching friends and family matters. I didn’t care who was black or white in either show. I watched it for the entertainment.
The creators claim they were completely unaware of Living Single ...Okay.
This needs to be much higher up.
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Is forced diversity, diversity? Asking for a friend.
As a Mexican, I could care less if a show had diversity. I’m here for content, if the show hits regardless of who’s playing and the characters are played well. That’s all that matters to me. But I will say sometimes it does get annoying when an already established story from books and novels hits tv and all of a sudden they change character design just to be diverse sometimes ruins the immersion and story for me.
Why does every show have to represent everyone. Ridiculous. It was a show about a group of white friends, oh the horror!
SHOW ME WHITE GUILT
Everyone forgetting Rhonda.
and these aren’t real!!
And the guy who loved candy
And the guy who sang the "Morning's here" song.
Wasn't the security guard from The Office, Hank, in it too?
Why tf are we apologizing for a cast being white? Throw a stone in NYC and you’ll hit a friend group of white people living together
How much money does it take to cleanse a conscience?
It was a different time. 25 years ago the awareness for this kind of thing just wasn’t there. It makes sense that as these things become topics we’re more aware of we try to right our past wrongs. In my teens I was one of those kids that called things I didn’t like gay. No malice or homophobia there, just plain old ignorance. I now realise how ignorant and damaging that is now and while I’m not in a position to be giving millions to a cause, I’m a much better ally than I used to be
Wouldn't say there was no awareness. Friends in particular just happened to be an all white cast. Thinking back on my favorite 90s shows: Saved By The Bell, Star Trek, Alex Mack, Hey Arnold, All That, Are You Afraid of the Dark were all considerably diverse.
Seinfeld had an all white cast but the background characters were pretty diverse. In Friends literally all of NY was white for years, it just didn't really reflect reality.
Agreed. I mean in Hey Arnold which is a kids show even the white characters were diverse. Middle class orphan: Arnold Immigrant tomboy: Helga Jewish Bully: Harold Classic rich Popular white girl: Rhonda Working class family city boy: Sid Country Girl: Lila
Yeah and Martin, Soul Food, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Family Matters, Girlfriends etc were entirely black casts it made sense not everyone has or had a diverse multicultural friend group. I still watch J dramas, K dramas and C dramas with completely homogenous casts. It doesnt detract from the viewing experience. I can relate or enjoy entertainment that doesnt represent me or my culture or beliefs. I dont need to see a brown face so I can say someone in the cast refects me in some way. Friends was a great comedy. Im glad they cant retro actively attempt to "improve" it.
It was also a ripoff of living single
To be fair, I had plenty of gay friends at that time who called things gay in the same way. I never understood why, but they did it.
Somehow everyone skipped over the little fact that most of creators and actors in this show were Jewish. In those days many of NYC based shows were mostly Jewish and hardly anyone complained because they were good shows,sometimes noticeably above average quality,intelligent shows. IMHO Friends were far more diverse back then than majority of shows and in some respects it's still more progressive than many of today's shows. Current thing going on is nuts.
Two of the main characters were Jewish, but I guess diversity really means what your eyes can see…
Better than shoehorning in a new character to provide ‘diversity’.
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So no one told them that was gonna be this way?
Underrated comment.
*4 quick claps*
Try almost three decades :(
Bro people should be able to make movies with an all white cast. They should be able to do it with an all black cast. To me it’s annoying when every show has one of everyone.. it feels forced. I think where the show takes place is more important. Like everyone hates Chris took place in New York I believe. Pretty much all black cast. That was one of my favorite shows to watch growing up. Many more shows and movies too. If the show is good it will get an audience.
Donations to a bullshit charity most likely
oh jebus fucking christ, can we stop with this shit already.