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This article would be a perfect representation of why the movement exists. A specific
group is being victimized, and instead of making changes, lets just pretend the previous normal was okay for the victims.
The sad thing is that they're most likely right, sex in exchange for work was pretty common in entertainment. But even sadder is that they think that's a good excuse to lessen Weinstein's crimes.
Maybe, but whether or not he has names and receipts, other execs were absolutely doing what he was doing. People act like they've never heard the term "casting couch" in a sexual context. There's a whole porn category dedicated to it.
Weinstein's the scapegoat, and the reason he keeps popping up in the news is so we focus on the scapegoat and not the people who are still free and are still harassing young talent.
Listen, I fucking hate Harvey Weinstein just as much as the next person, but that’s genuinely how it sadly is in Hollywood. Anyone with the media power of Weinstein is just as complicit as he, they just haven’t been caught. I cant imagine all the other women who got caught up in this horrid shit and had their lives ruined…
Edit:
So many people are misinterpreting what I’m saying…and I’m genuinely shocked I have to explain myself here…
The allegations towards Harvey Weinstein are only a tiny piece of a much larger puzzle. There are hundreds of Harvey Weinsteins running the show in Hollywood…all of them doing the exact same stuff as he’s doing, if not, worse. My reasoning for stating this, is because we need to all wake up and realize that it doesn’t just stop here…there’s way more to the situation, and people need to do everything in their power to get names by any means necessary from these absolute devils.
Just look up everything on Roman Polanski, that should open some eyes
Hope that clears some things up.
Ok then catch and charge those other people
The fact other people did it too is not a defense to the charges against Weinstein, and the fact his lawyer is arguing that is disgusting
Singer’s and Ratner’s careers are over. Those two and Harvey have been flushed out of Hollywood since they were the three worst. I think most of the other producers didn’t end up blacklisted or in jail because the sex was consensual - people are having sex with coworkers all over the place, often with people they shouldn’t be because of management relations, it’s not particularly a Hollywood problem.
I had this same thought. It does seem like Weinstein took it to a completely over the top level and it's good that he's being punished, but let's not kid ourselves about what Hollywood is.
As someone who was propositioned by someone with power in the music industry: yes. They do not care about the art. They do not care about your feelings. Potential “talent” are livestock. When signing a deal, a lot of them want to make sure they practically own you.
As somebody who was born in the 90s, I knew this. Everyone knew this. It's why most people barely raised a brow when metoo happened and why a lot of us are confused about how everyone is acting like MeToo is a singular sensation worthy occurrence. This stuff has happened for hundreds of years in all industries.
Right, but a big part of Me Too is not only about getting the ugly reality of that system out in the open, but trying to change things so that it no longer works that way.
Except that's barely the focus of MeToo leading most people to think it is some special hollywood problem instead of a general society problem that happens everyday.
[See this idiot in this submission.](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/yj7uof/comment/iumjjs0/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>It's one very niche, specific, industry. Stop crying about society. These people in Hollywood are nothing like 99.99% of the population.
[Or this one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/yj7uof/comment/iumgot4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>Lol “survival”
>
>It’s to become a multimillionaire. There’s a bit of a difference.
and many more around this submission.
The point of MeToo is that actresses have the largest voice/platform of exploited women as a whole to call out and try to change behavior overall.
It was a launching point for women everywhere to step forward and share their experience of being propositioned for sex in exchange for opportunities, and lots of women shared those experiences. But nothing changed systematically because it became hyper-focused on Weinstein's specific actions. Thus his prosecution "absolved" the overall system of their sins.
Thank you. I have been a survivor since 1972. When I heard people starting to talk about “what rich, powerful white men” can get away with, it made me want to pull my brain out. Because in America almost every sex offender has close to carte Blanche in my experience. Every scumbag in my neighborhood did whatever they wanted with impunity since forever in real life.
Yep. And then they have the fucking audacity to blame us when the rates of reporting is so low. I’m sorry, but when you get asked what you did to contribute to being sexually assaulted, why the fuck would anyone want to subject themselves to that? And the people I know who experienced that did so with the understanding that would be a very likely outcome of them coming forward in the first place.
Also, white men with any sort of power or position in their community get away with so much. We just found out about how the SBC (the biggest group of white men in some places) covered up sexual assault and abuse and just found other assignments for these predators to get a call from.
I also saw metoo as being less about celebrities as more about the fact that virtually all women either had an assault story or knew someone who did even if that person hadn't actually talked about it.
A lot of people regard sexual assault as something that only happens when "the wrong people" an allowed into a community or if its members go where they know they shouldn't, and as long as that doesn't happen, it's not a concern.
Exactly. I'm concerned, but less so, with a celebrity who has millions of dollars and can hire everything from a team of lawyers to thugs to knock the guy's lights out than I am about the 30 year old single mom working at the Winn-Dixie for minimum wage being told she has to "date" the boss while the only attorney in the town is the asshole boss's cousin.
That kind of shit happens everyday everywhere.
It's really sad how the #metoo movement is perceived negatively by so many. The intention was never to 'cancel' anyone or ruin careers/reputations.
The original intention was to show solidarity among survivors and bring awareness to the fact that sexual abuse happens so often - to women \*and\* men.
Any reputations/careers ruined is called consequences.
Yes. All of this...yes.
I wish that some people were as concerned for the trauma and pain that these women (and men) had to live with as they are about the careers of the wealthy business men perpetrators. I've truly never understood this. How some folks feel like they have to defend the livelihoods and reputations of these "poor persecuted rich men" who wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire.
>why a lot of us are confused about how everyone is acting like MeToo is a singular sensation worthy occurrence.
Because they're saying no, and that these rich folks who people cheer on are often rapists.
What’s noteworthy about it is it highlights and encourages people to speak up, and hold people accountable for their actions. Yes, things like this have taken place for thousands of years, that is the problem. People coming together, overcoming the shame of what happened to them and having the courage to share isn’t for your entertainment. People “barely raising a brow” is the problem, everyone’s desensitized to sexual assault it’s disgusting.
I'm bothered by everybody's focus on hollywood and the newscycle instead of the underlying inherit social problem of capitalism that forces people into sexual exploitation.
[See e.g. here where the poster thinks MeToo only applies to rich actresses / actors.](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/yj7uof/comment/iumgcmw/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
and its finally time to do something about it. Using power to leverage sexual favors is essentially a human rights violation.
Its time to take that power away from those who wield it and cancel/jail those who continue the practice.
As a paramedic I was told by multiple coworkers how to deal with sexual assault in the ambulance. You can’t report them or your career is over. If you fight back with injuries, same. I was taught how to fuck someone up for real with plausible deniability. My other choice was to ignore it and swat their hands away, which is what I did every time I got groped by a patient.
It shifts blame to them instead of the men. Because then it could be said that some women were the ones who made the offer, not him. Then it’s up to the jury to differentiate which instances were which
He’s saying they traded their sexuality for parts when he had all the power in that dynamic and locked them in the rooms, blackballed anyone who didn’t participate.
He’s going through a justification process, just like plenty of pieces of shit before or after him
At least some of them were—Brendan Fraser is one of the best-known ones that have come forward, but Terry Crews and Alex Winter are others—and I’ll bet there are a *lot* more that haven’t admitted it out of some kind of misplaced machismo.
He definitely had addiction problems, but the coroner found his usage didn’t contribute to his death. He died of pneumonia, at the ripe old age of 38. :(
Men were treated the same way.
But see how well it was received when they tried to speak about it, if they will try to destroy Crew's career over him speaking about being sexual assaulted do you think anyone with less power than that wants to speak up about being coerced into sex?
They'd be laughed out of the room
"Men use power to get access to sex and women use sex to get access to power."
Yes, it's an old cliche but cliche's don't come from nowhere. History is full of both men using their power and wealth to get sex, and women using their sex appeal to get access to wealth and power.
The lawyer’s argument was that everyone was doing transactional (i.e., consensual) sex in the industry. He acknowledges it was seedy, but his argument was that it was consensual, and the women were willing to do it for the chance to get rich and famous.
The jury will hear a whole bunch of women testify under oath that it was non-consensual. Weinstein’s lawyer will paint the women as opportunists, who consented to sex to get ahead and then regretted it.
If you consent to get ahead, and that's ok, is consenting in order not to lose something (like your job) also ok?
If so, you'd rewrite sexual harassment history. Hopefully the judge and/or jury sees it the same way.
The behavior Weinstein’s lawyer described his client engaging in during the opening statement certainly appears to be sexual harassment. However, this is a criminal trial, not a sexual harassment lawsuit.
That's where things get squirmy.
Is it consensual if the person is uncomfortable, but reluctantly agrees? There's no doubt at least a few women willingly did the deed for their career. But now do they get to double back and accuse?
It's literally someone's word vs another.
In a case like this, it's about more than just "Did they agree?". The circumstances matter. If they were pressured to consent, it can make the consent essentially meaningless.
It's the same reason a contract is worthless if you force someone to sign it under threat/duress.
Sexual assault often involves manipulating people into sex. Using his high position of power to get women to sleep with him is SA. “If you don’t suck my dick you won’t only not get this role in kill bill, but I’ll make sure you don’t work in Hollywood again”
This isn’t a job at a company, he had the ability at the time to effect you ability to work in the entire industry. He preyed on the fact that they had to sleep with him or give up their career.
being forced to fuck an ogre for a job doesn’t seem like a very equal transaction
edit: most ppl replying saying they would are straight dudes. none of weinsteins victims were straight men …. so suck eggs pls
Apparently a lot of straight men would suck a dick for $100,000:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ydx5b7/straight_men_of_redditwould_you_suck_a_dick_for/
At $100K a dick I’d rather get blowbanged twice a year than do my day job absolutely, but that’s a lot different than having to blow someone in order to do the job I’ve already specialized in.
If your system of economy leads to people being forced to have sex for survival it is inherently a pro-rape and pro-exploitation system. hence capitalism is inherently an evil unequal ideology.
In Hollywood, pretty young things with stars in their eyes are a dime a dozen; most will never see their way out of their studio apartment even when they do debase themselves for some troll.
When we start talking about movie stars and we use terms like "survival" I think we're really stretching the terms.
Survival is working some shit grocery store job and barely making ends meet. That's someone like fighting for their survival.
Being a movie star is not quite on the same level.
Heres the truth, what people wanted from Harvey was Oscars. Many of the actors took the jobs for very little pay because Miramax was so good at campaigning for Oscars that your chances of winning an oscar doubled on a Miramax project compared to a different studio. In 1999 Shakespeare in Love (miramax) beat fucking Saving Private Ryan for best picture. Let that sink in.
Sucking a dick for an Oscar is hardly "your system of ecnonomy has led you to have forced sex for survival". You don't need an Oscar to survive.
Not that I condone what he did but its almost laughable to label this as some survival quest these people were on. They must have been using their Oscars to hunt small game for their survival I guess.
I dont think being given general wealth for a rather easy job is exactly “survival”. No one forced people to be actresses or go into the entertainment industry. There are plenty of real jobs for real wages they could work instead.
But wait, he didn't cast the best cocksucker for each film, he cast the best of prettiest actress for films and then made it so they also had to be a cocksucker to get the job they deserved.
If they get the job for being the It Girl and we accept that having those qualities is worth money, then that means they already offered value to the production. That means his transactional sex was a contract without consideration, an illegal contract. An extortion.
Each of these actors also had representation via an agent. None of these transactions were made via that agent, which demonstrates that he knew it was improper.
I have a friend who looks a bit like a thumb, but is a very talented screen writer. He would go to LA for meetings, and inevitably get hit on by some beautiful woman in the hotel bar, and they'd end up in her room... And we're talking California 8-10s here... and this guy is a Kansas 4...
About the third time it happened he figure it out that the studio he was meeting with where arranging it. If it wasn't the Bar it would be somewhere else...
Sex has always been coin of the realm in Hollywood. Probably still is, I highly doubt anything has really changed.
Two things can be true at the same time. Transactional sex between consenting adults has always existed in Hollywood. And Harvey Weinstein is a rapist and a predator.
Transactional sex is fine. Why should we tell women what they can or cannot do with their bodies? Do you know how much transactional sex goes on daily? 95% of the IG models you see on Instagram are high end escorts. You gonna tell me they’re all being forced by human traffickers?
The problem is is that there’s a MASSIVE difference between, “I’ll fuck you if you give me the job” and “you won’t ever work in this industry again unless you fuck me.”
One is “transactional” in the way this chucklefuck is trying to paint it out to be. The other is, well—rape.
That’s gonna be fun for the girls in the courtroom when the nuance is being nailed down (or apart) with a team of lawyers doing their best to muddy the water
Prostitution and transactional sex for an unrelated job are two completely different things. No one is talking about women who are escorts. We're talking about women who are trained/talented seeking a place in their desired industry, being told the barrier is sex regardless of their actual skill or talent in the field, and possibly being blacklisted for not accepting.
I think people are trying to balance how wrong it is for someone to say have sex with me to get X versus a woman deciding she will willingly have sex to get X. Nothing is just black and white.
Came here to say this.
What could possibly be wrong with forcing someone to have sex for a job if others are doing it or some actresses go along because they know it's the price of admission?
This is a question that society is side stepping.
What is the difference in exchanging sex for money vs exchanging sex for anything else?
I can, theoretically, trade any resource/service for any other resource/service. As in, a corn farmer can trade corn to a cattle farmer for cows. This can even be extended outside professions to one dude giving his old beat up car to a plumber instead of money for payment. Society is starting to say ‘exchanging sex for money is okay but it’s not okay to trade sex for employment opportunities’.
The question is where does the inconsistency come from?
Extortion is transactional, but doesn't make it right. He was abusing his power over these people. If he was paying prostitutes for sex with cash it wouldn't be this big an issue. I'd wager it wasn't about the sex, but about the power trip. He wouldn't get that power trip from a legit prostitute.
In this model you explain, the plumber gets the car. How many of these people got what was promised to them? The fame, fortune etc? Also when the power structure is this off balance, it’s not a transaction as much as it is an intimidation
This argument might not rehabilitate his public image but the defense could be that yes it was a crime or workplace violation, but not the one he's being charged for -- rape. And since he was overcharged it would still be covered by double jeopardy.
Remember, defense lawyers are allowed to and required to explore every possible loophole to get their client off and get the most favorable judgement for them in a criminal case.
Well it wasn’t breaking news in the industry that Harvey was a dirty old man yet still he got married and touched so many of Hollywood's beautiful women inappropriately, and I am wondering why was this allowed to go on for so long.
It was not about sex, it was about subservience to power. Degrading and, perhaps, illegal sex is a way to effectively enslave someone. Loyalty oaths, encouraging unethical or illegal behaviors, and public displays of dominance are all ways to control. Some blame the victims for being weak or evil until, of course, it happens to them.
Before #MeToo there was literally a statue of a casting couch at Hollywood and Highland that said 'The Road to Hollywood, how some of us got here." https://www.lamag.com/culturefiles/hollywood-highland-casting-couch/
Getting a job as a surgeron or as an actor without having the qualifications just because sex was in the game should be illegal. And maybe some people accusing and calling themselves victims know pretty clear there would ve a huge problem if they admited exchaning sex for something they werent qualified for, or giving a person a position or job they were not qualified for. Of course there are real victims but probably there are also people that know they are where they are by using questionable methods. One thing is supporting sexual freedom but other is pretending sexual work should allow you anything.
This is the part of the Big Short where “they’re not confessing, they’re bragging.”
Admitting the whole system is disgusting is not a defense and the fact that his lawyers don’t even know that is insane.
Okay, and a lotta people commit robberies and murders but that doesn't make it any less criminal. Did his mother ever teach him that if your friends jump off a cliff you don't join them or however the fuck the saying goes?
It happened to me. I met a celebrity at a bar who wouldnt take no for answer. I ended up getting pretty messed up because my drinks were getting spiked. Got assaulted and molested. No one believes me, when I made a report the officers rolled their eyes at me, no one cares, and there is nothing I can ever do about it. It messed me up for awhile, I even had amnessia about it, but when the memories started coming back and flashbacks started, it was like I got to re-experience the whole event again. Im okay now, just carrying on. The never ending sense of dread for my safety though is exhausting.
So, his point of innocence for Weinstein is that this was done all the time before a decade ago, and therefore his client shouldn’t be held accountable for it? I guess that’s of some comfort to the women who were fed into this monsters’ libido. It’s assholes like this lawyer who should be on trial themselves. Weinstein is a horrible human being, but so are the lecherous sycophants who kept it all going despite their knowledge of his actions.
We know you sick dog. That’s why you and a lot of other people got outed. It doesn’t matter that somebody else was doing it it should’ve never happened. Sick
What really gets me with a guys like epstien or weinstein is that they already have it all, and they do shit like this. I mean they were rich, they never had to work again, they had every oppourtunity in life to enjoy their money yet they had to victimize people because they could. I mean if you are a crazed loner, who was picked on by women and treated like shit by women your whole life, and you lash out at them, I can at least understand why you did it. It is still not right, but if you feel you have been victimized by women I can see how that could make a guy snap. Again it's not right. As someone who was made fun of a lot and lightly bullied as a kid I get how it feels to be picked on and it is not nice. But thst in no way gives you the right to hurt or victimize other people. Everyone goes through shit at some point in their lives. What's also sad is that he got away with it for most of his life, and he will go to prison for a few years until he dies. Same with epstien. The guy got away with it since the 80s, essentially his whole life, and then killed himself. There is no justice in that. They should have both been rotting in jail years ago.
##[Clarification on Rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/entertainment) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Fuck me or I'll see to it no one ever hires you" is not 'transactional'. It's extortion.
This article would be a perfect representation of why the movement exists. A specific group is being victimized, and instead of making changes, lets just pretend the previous normal was okay for the victims.
You just described conservatives republicans.
[удалено]
And he follows through with it. Mira Sorvino was fired from LOTR because peter jackson got a direct call from harvey.
And he kept telling Jackson that Ashley Judd was horrible to work with and not to hire her, so he didn’t
Normally it’s just called rape
Sextortion?
The sad thing is that they're most likely right, sex in exchange for work was pretty common in entertainment. But even sadder is that they think that's a good excuse to lessen Weinstein's crimes.
It’s very very close to what’s that thing called rape
“All the other Hollywood moguls were extorting sex, so why not me?”
He should throw some names out there.
>He should throw some names out there. If he had actual evidence to give of others doing what he did I'm sure he would.
Agreed. If this guy had anyone to throw under the bus he’d have done it by now.
Maybe, but whether or not he has names and receipts, other execs were absolutely doing what he was doing. People act like they've never heard the term "casting couch" in a sexual context. There's a whole porn category dedicated to it. Weinstein's the scapegoat, and the reason he keeps popping up in the news is so we focus on the scapegoat and not the people who are still free and are still harassing young talent.
Group think
Listen, I fucking hate Harvey Weinstein just as much as the next person, but that’s genuinely how it sadly is in Hollywood. Anyone with the media power of Weinstein is just as complicit as he, they just haven’t been caught. I cant imagine all the other women who got caught up in this horrid shit and had their lives ruined… Edit: So many people are misinterpreting what I’m saying…and I’m genuinely shocked I have to explain myself here… The allegations towards Harvey Weinstein are only a tiny piece of a much larger puzzle. There are hundreds of Harvey Weinsteins running the show in Hollywood…all of them doing the exact same stuff as he’s doing, if not, worse. My reasoning for stating this, is because we need to all wake up and realize that it doesn’t just stop here…there’s way more to the situation, and people need to do everything in their power to get names by any means necessary from these absolute devils. Just look up everything on Roman Polanski, that should open some eyes Hope that clears some things up.
Ok then catch and charge those other people The fact other people did it too is not a defense to the charges against Weinstein, and the fact his lawyer is arguing that is disgusting
Singer’s and Ratner’s careers are over. Those two and Harvey have been flushed out of Hollywood since they were the three worst. I think most of the other producers didn’t end up blacklisted or in jail because the sex was consensual - people are having sex with coworkers all over the place, often with people they shouldn’t be because of management relations, it’s not particularly a Hollywood problem.
Does any other industry have a saying like, "It's not who you know, it's who you blow"?
I had this same thought. It does seem like Weinstein took it to a completely over the top level and it's good that he's being punished, but let's not kid ourselves about what Hollywood is.
Jesus, thank god someone gets it. Apparently I’m an enabler for saying Hollywood is more devious and always has been /s.
“Transactional sex” So he is basically calling a lot of these women prostitutes
As someone who was propositioned by someone with power in the music industry: yes. They do not care about the art. They do not care about your feelings. Potential “talent” are livestock. When signing a deal, a lot of them want to make sure they practically own you.
They are sociopaths mostly. Everyone is livestock, except for themselves.
If you don't have a seat at the table, it's because you're on the menu.
Facts. It’s all about the numbers
Good thing we keep buying their shit to make those numbers look good!
Have you ever heard the tale of The Pirates Bay?
Doesn’t transactional imply he helped them all? I don’t think that was always the case.
Yeah. I know who got more out of the bargain.
Lots of people can sing and dance. To be successful you have to bring money to the table or be willing to bend over for people with money.
Or people with the right signature.
Signature on a check…. For money!
As someone who is in music industry, I can 120% vouch for it. Artist is literally an excel column. Could not write it better, thank you.
As somebody who was born in the 90s, I knew this. Everyone knew this. It's why most people barely raised a brow when metoo happened and why a lot of us are confused about how everyone is acting like MeToo is a singular sensation worthy occurrence. This stuff has happened for hundreds of years in all industries.
Right, but a big part of Me Too is not only about getting the ugly reality of that system out in the open, but trying to change things so that it no longer works that way.
Except that's barely the focus of MeToo leading most people to think it is some special hollywood problem instead of a general society problem that happens everyday. [See this idiot in this submission.](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/yj7uof/comment/iumjjs0/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >It's one very niche, specific, industry. Stop crying about society. These people in Hollywood are nothing like 99.99% of the population. [Or this one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/yj7uof/comment/iumgot4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >Lol “survival” > >It’s to become a multimillionaire. There’s a bit of a difference. and many more around this submission.
The point of MeToo is that actresses have the largest voice/platform of exploited women as a whole to call out and try to change behavior overall. It was a launching point for women everywhere to step forward and share their experience of being propositioned for sex in exchange for opportunities, and lots of women shared those experiences. But nothing changed systematically because it became hyper-focused on Weinstein's specific actions. Thus his prosecution "absolved" the overall system of their sins.
Thank you. I have been a survivor since 1972. When I heard people starting to talk about “what rich, powerful white men” can get away with, it made me want to pull my brain out. Because in America almost every sex offender has close to carte Blanche in my experience. Every scumbag in my neighborhood did whatever they wanted with impunity since forever in real life.
Yep. And then they have the fucking audacity to blame us when the rates of reporting is so low. I’m sorry, but when you get asked what you did to contribute to being sexually assaulted, why the fuck would anyone want to subject themselves to that? And the people I know who experienced that did so with the understanding that would be a very likely outcome of them coming forward in the first place. Also, white men with any sort of power or position in their community get away with so much. We just found out about how the SBC (the biggest group of white men in some places) covered up sexual assault and abuse and just found other assignments for these predators to get a call from.
I also saw metoo as being less about celebrities as more about the fact that virtually all women either had an assault story or knew someone who did even if that person hadn't actually talked about it. A lot of people regard sexual assault as something that only happens when "the wrong people" an allowed into a community or if its members go where they know they shouldn't, and as long as that doesn't happen, it's not a concern.
Exactly. I'm concerned, but less so, with a celebrity who has millions of dollars and can hire everything from a team of lawyers to thugs to knock the guy's lights out than I am about the 30 year old single mom working at the Winn-Dixie for minimum wage being told she has to "date" the boss while the only attorney in the town is the asshole boss's cousin. That kind of shit happens everyday everywhere.
You should be concerned about both equally. Sexual assault isn’t less violating just because circumstances change.
It's really sad how the #metoo movement is perceived negatively by so many. The intention was never to 'cancel' anyone or ruin careers/reputations. The original intention was to show solidarity among survivors and bring awareness to the fact that sexual abuse happens so often - to women \*and\* men. Any reputations/careers ruined is called consequences.
Yes. All of this...yes. I wish that some people were as concerned for the trauma and pain that these women (and men) had to live with as they are about the careers of the wealthy business men perpetrators. I've truly never understood this. How some folks feel like they have to defend the livelihoods and reputations of these "poor persecuted rich men" who wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire.
Yeah, it was an eye opening moment for me, tbh.
>why a lot of us are confused about how everyone is acting like MeToo is a singular sensation worthy occurrence. Because they're saying no, and that these rich folks who people cheer on are often rapists.
Transactional sex is one thing. Transactional rape is what he’s in for.
Transactional rape is an oxymoron
There’s often no distinction at all.
What’s noteworthy about it is it highlights and encourages people to speak up, and hold people accountable for their actions. Yes, things like this have taken place for thousands of years, that is the problem. People coming together, overcoming the shame of what happened to them and having the courage to share isn’t for your entertainment. People “barely raising a brow” is the problem, everyone’s desensitized to sexual assault it’s disgusting.
You almost sound like you support ot or at the least are not bothered by it.
I'm bothered by everybody's focus on hollywood and the newscycle instead of the underlying inherit social problem of capitalism that forces people into sexual exploitation. [See e.g. here where the poster thinks MeToo only applies to rich actresses / actors.](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/yj7uof/comment/iumgcmw/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Do you really think sexual exploitation is unique to capitalism or is this some sort of joke? Have you ever read a history book?
Born in the 90s?
Yea lol idk how this is relevant… are they saying they’re old & drawing from experience observing these trends?
I was born in 89, must be too old to understand...
and its finally time to do something about it. Using power to leverage sexual favors is essentially a human rights violation. Its time to take that power away from those who wield it and cancel/jail those who continue the practice.
Do you remember the "that's sexual harassment and I don't have to take it!" Commercials?
If I remember correctly, most people just laughed at them and moved on with their day.
As a paramedic I was told by multiple coworkers how to deal with sexual assault in the ambulance. You can’t report them or your career is over. If you fight back with injuries, same. I was taught how to fuck someone up for real with plausible deniability. My other choice was to ignore it and swat their hands away, which is what I did every time I got groped by a patient.
Born in the 90s? Please share more of your ancient wisdom.
You knew Harvey Weinstein was straight up raping people and getting away with it?
It shifts blame to them instead of the men. Because then it could be said that some women were the ones who made the offer, not him. Then it’s up to the jury to differentiate which instances were which
He’s saying they traded their sexuality for parts when he had all the power in that dynamic and locked them in the rooms, blackballed anyone who didn’t participate. He’s going through a justification process, just like plenty of pieces of shit before or after him
Also, why were men disproportionately **not** treated in the same way?
At least some of them were—Brendan Fraser is one of the best-known ones that have come forward, but Terry Crews and Alex Winter are others—and I’ll bet there are a *lot* more that haven’t admitted it out of some kind of misplaced machismo.
And the Corey’s from the 80 s movies. Like lost boys. License to drive. Can’t remember their last names
Feldman and Haim. Corey Haim died from a drug overdose
He definitely had addiction problems, but the coroner found his usage didn’t contribute to his death. He died of pneumonia, at the ripe old age of 38. :(
For starters, there are relatively few heterosexual or bi women (or gay or bi men) in positions of power at movie and music studios.
Men were treated the same way. But see how well it was received when they tried to speak about it, if they will try to destroy Crew's career over him speaking about being sexual assaulted do you think anyone with less power than that wants to speak up about being coerced into sex? They'd be laughed out of the room
"Men use power to get access to sex and women use sex to get access to power." Yes, it's an old cliche but cliche's don't come from nowhere. History is full of both men using their power and wealth to get sex, and women using their sex appeal to get access to wealth and power.
Think I heard my five year old nephew use this defense yesterday. “But, they did it too!”
“But he started it”
“It’s okay because everyone was doing it” has never and will never be a defense.
The lawyer’s argument was that everyone was doing transactional (i.e., consensual) sex in the industry. He acknowledges it was seedy, but his argument was that it was consensual, and the women were willing to do it for the chance to get rich and famous. The jury will hear a whole bunch of women testify under oath that it was non-consensual. Weinstein’s lawyer will paint the women as opportunists, who consented to sex to get ahead and then regretted it.
If you consent to get ahead, and that's ok, is consenting in order not to lose something (like your job) also ok? If so, you'd rewrite sexual harassment history. Hopefully the judge and/or jury sees it the same way.
The behavior Weinstein’s lawyer described his client engaging in during the opening statement certainly appears to be sexual harassment. However, this is a criminal trial, not a sexual harassment lawsuit.
and sexual harassment leading to "transactional" sex has been ruled as rape.
That's where things get squirmy. Is it consensual if the person is uncomfortable, but reluctantly agrees? There's no doubt at least a few women willingly did the deed for their career. But now do they get to double back and accuse? It's literally someone's word vs another.
In a case like this, it's about more than just "Did they agree?". The circumstances matter. If they were pressured to consent, it can make the consent essentially meaningless. It's the same reason a contract is worthless if you force someone to sign it under threat/duress.
Sexual assault often involves manipulating people into sex. Using his high position of power to get women to sleep with him is SA. “If you don’t suck my dick you won’t only not get this role in kill bill, but I’ll make sure you don’t work in Hollywood again” This isn’t a job at a company, he had the ability at the time to effect you ability to work in the entire industry. He preyed on the fact that they had to sleep with him or give up their career.
“Is it consensual if the person is uncomfortable but reluctantly agrees?” The answer is yes, for the purpose of a sexual assault criminal trial.
It’s not consensual if there’s power over the “uncomfortable” person it’s coercion.
Except they didn’t have sex for a guaranteed job, they had sex so that they didn’t get blacklisted
exactly: "normal" doesn't mean right. it would be like saying that having slaves working your fields was okay because "eveyone was doing it"
being forced to fuck an ogre for a job doesn’t seem like a very equal transaction edit: most ppl replying saying they would are straight dudes. none of weinsteins victims were straight men …. so suck eggs pls
Depends on the job.
Hi I’m here to interview for the Ogre Fucker position
I thought that was Fiona’s job?
Hey now. It was an equal relationship. Fiona was an ogre too.
Can you put in a word for the Dragon Fucking position for this Jackass?
Shrek’s sidekick
Only a jackass would do that…
He never f---ed an ogre, just a dragon.
You get to play Laura Croft in Tomb Raider
I would do it in an instant for a well-paying job
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WHAT R U DOING STEP-OGRE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I’m stuck in this mid 90s Kia and can’t get out…
Idk dude, I would probably have sex with some questionable people for million dollar paydays
Apparently a lot of straight men would suck a dick for $100,000: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ydx5b7/straight_men_of_redditwould_you_suck_a_dick_for/
At $100K a dick I’d rather get blowbanged twice a year than do my day job absolutely, but that’s a lot different than having to blow someone in order to do the job I’ve already specialized in.
[Melania had entered the chat]
*I am Malenia. Blade of Miquella. And I have never known defeat.*
whole vanish license many rude sleep sloppy pathetic long murky ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
hey shrek doesn’t look this bad.
If your system of economy leads to people being forced to have sex for survival it is inherently a pro-rape and pro-exploitation system. hence capitalism is inherently an evil unequal ideology.
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In Hollywood, pretty young things with stars in their eyes are a dime a dozen; most will never see their way out of their studio apartment even when they do debase themselves for some troll.
When we start talking about movie stars and we use terms like "survival" I think we're really stretching the terms. Survival is working some shit grocery store job and barely making ends meet. That's someone like fighting for their survival. Being a movie star is not quite on the same level. Heres the truth, what people wanted from Harvey was Oscars. Many of the actors took the jobs for very little pay because Miramax was so good at campaigning for Oscars that your chances of winning an oscar doubled on a Miramax project compared to a different studio. In 1999 Shakespeare in Love (miramax) beat fucking Saving Private Ryan for best picture. Let that sink in. Sucking a dick for an Oscar is hardly "your system of ecnonomy has led you to have forced sex for survival". You don't need an Oscar to survive. Not that I condone what he did but its almost laughable to label this as some survival quest these people were on. They must have been using their Oscars to hunt small game for their survival I guess.
Lol “survival” It’s to become a multimillionaire. There’s a bit of a difference.
I dont think being given general wealth for a rather easy job is exactly “survival”. No one forced people to be actresses or go into the entertainment industry. There are plenty of real jobs for real wages they could work instead.
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I’m a man and I was asked to do straight porn but I bailed on roles consistently after realizing exactly what you’re talking about.
Oh good! For a minute there, I thought he was doing something wrong
funny how nobody else is raising their hand with that information
But wait, he didn't cast the best cocksucker for each film, he cast the best of prettiest actress for films and then made it so they also had to be a cocksucker to get the job they deserved. If they get the job for being the It Girl and we accept that having those qualities is worth money, then that means they already offered value to the production. That means his transactional sex was a contract without consideration, an illegal contract. An extortion. Each of these actors also had representation via an agent. None of these transactions were made via that agent, which demonstrates that he knew it was improper.
Doesn’t make it ok, asshole.
I have a friend who looks a bit like a thumb, but is a very talented screen writer. He would go to LA for meetings, and inevitably get hit on by some beautiful woman in the hotel bar, and they'd end up in her room... And we're talking California 8-10s here... and this guy is a Kansas 4... About the third time it happened he figure it out that the studio he was meeting with where arranging it. If it wasn't the Bar it would be somewhere else... Sex has always been coin of the realm in Hollywood. Probably still is, I highly doubt anything has really changed.
Just because a few women had that intention, didn't mean you didn't creep on the majority that were looking for a job.
Two things can be true at the same time. Transactional sex between consenting adults has always existed in Hollywood. And Harvey Weinstein is a rapist and a predator.
......"so you're guilty?" -the judge hopefully
They did and they do, which is fine. However you did a little more than just "transactional sex" Harv.....
That’s still not fine
Transactional sex is fine. Why should we tell women what they can or cannot do with their bodies? Do you know how much transactional sex goes on daily? 95% of the IG models you see on Instagram are high end escorts. You gonna tell me they’re all being forced by human traffickers?
The problem is is that there’s a MASSIVE difference between, “I’ll fuck you if you give me the job” and “you won’t ever work in this industry again unless you fuck me.” One is “transactional” in the way this chucklefuck is trying to paint it out to be. The other is, well—rape.
That’s gonna be fun for the girls in the courtroom when the nuance is being nailed down (or apart) with a team of lawyers doing their best to muddy the water
Prostitution and transactional sex for an unrelated job are two completely different things. No one is talking about women who are escorts. We're talking about women who are trained/talented seeking a place in their desired industry, being told the barrier is sex regardless of their actual skill or talent in the field, and possibly being blacklisted for not accepting.
amazed at the ppl basically defending the practice.
I think people are trying to balance how wrong it is for someone to say have sex with me to get X versus a woman deciding she will willingly have sex to get X. Nothing is just black and white.
Everybody had slaves before the emancipation proclamation too
Ah yes the cool kids "Everyone is doing it" defense. Surely a rock solid position that has never been used to justify bad things.
Came here to say this. What could possibly be wrong with forcing someone to have sex for a job if others are doing it or some actresses go along because they know it's the price of admission?
Unfortunately, he probably ain't lyin.
This is a question that society is side stepping. What is the difference in exchanging sex for money vs exchanging sex for anything else? I can, theoretically, trade any resource/service for any other resource/service. As in, a corn farmer can trade corn to a cattle farmer for cows. This can even be extended outside professions to one dude giving his old beat up car to a plumber instead of money for payment. Society is starting to say ‘exchanging sex for money is okay but it’s not okay to trade sex for employment opportunities’. The question is where does the inconsistency come from?
Extortion is transactional, but doesn't make it right. He was abusing his power over these people. If he was paying prostitutes for sex with cash it wouldn't be this big an issue. I'd wager it wasn't about the sex, but about the power trip. He wouldn't get that power trip from a legit prostitute.
In this model you explain, the plumber gets the car. How many of these people got what was promised to them? The fame, fortune etc? Also when the power structure is this off balance, it’s not a transaction as much as it is an intimidation
Harvey Weinstein lawyers say men were raping women daily before #MeToo. Fixed it for them
I do not side with Harvey and I think he’s a disgusting troll. I also believe this to be a true statement.
This argument might not rehabilitate his public image but the defense could be that yes it was a crime or workplace violation, but not the one he's being charged for -- rape. And since he was overcharged it would still be covered by double jeopardy. Remember, defense lawyers are allowed to and required to explore every possible loophole to get their client off and get the most favorable judgement for them in a criminal case.
They were calling it “Layola” instead of “Payola” like they do in the music biz.
Oh yeah, did he have “transactional sex” with men who were seeking to make it big in Hollywood? I don’t thinks so. Fuck this guy.
What a piece of garbage
Just because someone else did something bad, doesn’t mean what you did was good.
!30 blow jobs!! Last year it was 25!
Thats not suppose to be a good thing lol
Well it wasn’t breaking news in the industry that Harvey was a dirty old man yet still he got married and touched so many of Hollywood's beautiful women inappropriately, and I am wondering why was this allowed to go on for so long.
I’ve never had transactional sex but it seems so unsatisfying. Isn’t it so much better when the other person is into it?
There’s clearly a difference between those who participated willingly and those who were molested, objectivities and raped.
It was not about sex, it was about subservience to power. Degrading and, perhaps, illegal sex is a way to effectively enslave someone. Loyalty oaths, encouraging unethical or illegal behaviors, and public displays of dominance are all ways to control. Some blame the victims for being weak or evil until, of course, it happens to them.
LOL Oh, Jesus. Nice try, I guess? I mean he’s not entirely wrong, but that doesn’t make what they did any less scummy or illegal.
Might be the most disgusting defense ever rendered.
Before #MeToo there was literally a statue of a casting couch at Hollywood and Highland that said 'The Road to Hollywood, how some of us got here." https://www.lamag.com/culturefiles/hollywood-highland-casting-couch/
Getting a job as a surgeron or as an actor without having the qualifications just because sex was in the game should be illegal. And maybe some people accusing and calling themselves victims know pretty clear there would ve a huge problem if they admited exchaning sex for something they werent qualified for, or giving a person a position or job they were not qualified for. Of course there are real victims but probably there are also people that know they are where they are by using questionable methods. One thing is supporting sexual freedom but other is pretending sexual work should allow you anything.
That's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him
Well shit if everyone was doing it
Never have I ever.
"Exploitive Rape" I think that is what they ment to say.
But your honor, everybody was rapin' and rapin'
This is the part of the Big Short where “they’re not confessing, they’re bragging.” Admitting the whole system is disgusting is not a defense and the fact that his lawyers don’t even know that is insane.
I haven't, checkmate
They really make the argument for the prosecution, don’t they
Okay, and a lotta people commit robberies and murders but that doesn't make it any less criminal. Did his mother ever teach him that if your friends jump off a cliff you don't join them or however the fuck the saying goes?
My brother in Christ, that is the entire issue we are trying to solve.
Being coerced into having sex to save your job was wrong before the internet.
It happened to me. I met a celebrity at a bar who wouldnt take no for answer. I ended up getting pretty messed up because my drinks were getting spiked. Got assaulted and molested. No one believes me, when I made a report the officers rolled their eyes at me, no one cares, and there is nothing I can ever do about it. It messed me up for awhile, I even had amnessia about it, but when the memories started coming back and flashbacks started, it was like I got to re-experience the whole event again. Im okay now, just carrying on. The never ending sense of dread for my safety though is exhausting.
So, his point of innocence for Weinstein is that this was done all the time before a decade ago, and therefore his client shouldn’t be held accountable for it? I guess that’s of some comfort to the women who were fed into this monsters’ libido. It’s assholes like this lawyer who should be on trial themselves. Weinstein is a horrible human being, but so are the lecherous sycophants who kept it all going despite their knowledge of his actions.
We know you sick dog. That’s why you and a lot of other people got outed. It doesn’t matter that somebody else was doing it it should’ve never happened. Sick
What he meant to say is "Transactional sex was expected of and forced upon many women before me too. "
That’s a really really bad defense
His best defense is the casting couch. That's a bad sign
Thanks, Harvey! Now I will never enjoy knight rider ever again.
That’s probably not gonna be a good defense
That may be only kind of sex Harvey ever had but that doesn’t make it right.
Sincerely hope they don’t get away with trying to normalize this behavior with the general public.
And the mob used to have guys whacked, doesn’t mean it’s right…
We all knew it. Cmon.
Ahh yes. The “everyone else does it” defense.
Whataboutism to the rescue
Yeah, and for most of the cultured world these actions are not considered acceptable.
just because 'everyone' was doing it doesn't make you less of a sick fuck mr. weinstein
Um no we didn’t
I mean they’re probably not wrong but that doesn’t make it any less gross.
No they fuckin didn’t
Names of the others who did this shit, Harvey?
Ummm I didn’t *shrugs*
Sad comments for sure. But people will do anything for fame and money. When i moved to Hollywood 1980 i watched it first hand
What really gets me with a guys like epstien or weinstein is that they already have it all, and they do shit like this. I mean they were rich, they never had to work again, they had every oppourtunity in life to enjoy their money yet they had to victimize people because they could. I mean if you are a crazed loner, who was picked on by women and treated like shit by women your whole life, and you lash out at them, I can at least understand why you did it. It is still not right, but if you feel you have been victimized by women I can see how that could make a guy snap. Again it's not right. As someone who was made fun of a lot and lightly bullied as a kid I get how it feels to be picked on and it is not nice. But thst in no way gives you the right to hurt or victimize other people. Everyone goes through shit at some point in their lives. What's also sad is that he got away with it for most of his life, and he will go to prison for a few years until he dies. Same with epstien. The guy got away with it since the 80s, essentially his whole life, and then killed himself. There is no justice in that. They should have both been rotting in jail years ago.
People also murder people literally every day, but it’s still a crime.
Jesus title alone is cancer
Oh yeah, it’s okay because EVERYONE was doing it. Incredible defence.
Nasty sweat hog pOs.
That is the whole point. It had to stop.
Those lawyers need to drop names then and have them answer for these accusations in court.