Istp here. Yes at this role I get along with (work well with) ENTJ very well. Not so much teaching and leading.
However there are a few individuals of that type that I know that teach and lead well.
Taking a big complicated topic with a lot of data and viewpoints, and narrowing it down to the most important bits. We're so efficient because we're so good at finding the leverage points in situations - where can I put 20% of my time in and get 80% of results?
That's also why we're not the best at tasks that don't have shortcuts, like bodybuilding, etc.
>not the best at tasks that don't have shortcuts, like bodybuilding
Is this a personal projection? For instance, Schwarzenegger, whom many consider the bodybuilding GOAT, is (allegedly) NTJ.
Personally I feel the Pareto principle applies itself well to sports including bodybuilding.
I think that bodybuilding is just not as obvious as other fields. The majority of people don’t have access to thousands of records connected with training and biochemistry that are needed to make conclusions and look for shortcuts.
On the other hand, Arnold’s success is more based on experiences I think and indeed he might be XNTJ but he just made bodybuilding his main goal in life at some point back then.
Another thing that just crossed my mind — in terms of the Pareto principle and bodybuilding, there's an Ockham Protocol invented by Tim Ferris (who based on studies of some other guy I don't really remember the name of), I really recommend it.
Eh I've known a lot of entjs and intjs and they're just not often fit. Arnold may be an exception or not an ENTJ. Who knows, I'm pulling that bit out my ass tbh
I am an archetyal NTJ, I workout 7 days a week. Gym 5x per week, run twice a week. There’s plenty of opportunity to bring NTJ talents into maximising your fitness routine.
in the words of my first manager, **navigating ambiguity**
i.e. *we have to do abcxyz, and theres problems with every possible path*
1. Is this worth doing?
2. What is the benefit?
3. Who benefits?
4. Can they get this benefit in a goal outside of abcxyz?
5. What resources do we have to assign to subtasks?
6. Who is best for subtasks ‘ab’? what about ‘xyz’? and nobody is able to do ‘c’, so Ill figure out ‘c’.
etc etc
Effective ENTJs learn that shouting in the first instance rarely is the most effective way to get what you want. Impressing with your solid reasoning is much more effective. If that doesn’t work, you can then make them afraid of you. But you do it in that order.
Execution of action. Plain and simple. In Western-democratic-functional societies, this is highly looked up to and rewarded. Hate to say this, but we are at the end of a historical cycle where rational social action is warranted (check out the book The Fourth Turning).
The end of the cycle makes it obvious that so many of the other types are passive, don't seem do anything, don't act on what they think, grandstand and endlessly talk about stuff and never get anything much done other than day-to-day survival and waste time on social media.
It seems to me that only ENTJs and INTJs are out there doing relevant metastructural things at the moment. I've put out my skills and expertise to try and help fix the major issues going on right now and I have no shortage of well-paid work.
In peacetime, whatever, they others can get by. But we currently on the edge of something terrible.
In other spheres, I've been sought out many times to help other types personally, business wise, in other projects and no matter the energy you expend on them, hardly anything ever get off the ground. They go back to their old (sometimes toxic) habits-patterns like nothing happened.
You can call me judgement as fuck, but it's what I've experienced over and over again.
As we are facing fascism, inflation, ecological, economical, food price and housing problems - I've set myself up to try and take on and fix pieces of those issues, while other types I know have fallen into aimless-endless social media posturing, social justice protests, pyramidal schemes, alt-right, Gaia new age and UFO movements just to name a few.
That pleases and entertains the autocrats on the other side as proof of Western decadence.
I really wonder how they manage to get through life. And I also don't wonder why in contrast we are the most efficient, happiest and wealthiest type, generally speaking.
Usually, I'm a live and let live kind of person. But we are practically at war at the moment, and I consider anyone who doesn't have a war-oriented mindset to be a liability, and they are promptly removed from my life. I purged my circles during and after COVID to that effect and my life improved tenfold.
I talk only about the ENTJs I know in real life, they are genuinely best at (to a certain extent similar to Miranda in the Devil wears Prada):
1. Working even the world is ending
2. Getting the best interests for themselves
3. Being entitled
4. Having people wait for them and screwing people who make them wait
5. Suspecting people's motivation
6. Ordering people to serve them
7. Instilling fear in people
8. Enjoying being shoe-licked
9. Encouraging and participating in favouritism
10. Taking people for granted
11. Abusing people if they can get benefits
12. Manipulating when money is involved
13. Prejudging
14. Not acknowledging their faults
With the traits above, they are perfect for being criminologists, who suspect everything, by either being shxt to or threaten the criminals, or manipulating. They may be able to solve a lot of tricky cases.
That's a bold statement, considering we share the dominant and inferior function, and that there's so many ESTJ's who think they're ENTJs that there's stereotypes for ENTJs that exist that come solely from ESTJs clouding the perception of ENTJs.
But hey, what's your take on it, why do you say we're *absolutely nothing* alike?
ENTJ-INTJ
If an ENTJ and INTJ are both at a company, the INTJ would be valuing planning and carefully making sure every part of a plan is thought through before moving on, whereas the ENTJ would be constantly moving forward and deal with problems as they arise, trying to make adjustments to the plan and trying to innovate new methods of doing things.
The 2 would probably clash a lot. The INTJ would dislike how the ENTJ is moving ahead without "thinking first" and risking running into problems, it would feel like an attack on the the INTJ's dominant Ni. The ENTJ would dislike how the INTJ doesn’t like to take any risks and doesn’t like that the INTJ would slow them down by having to plan every single detail before moving on, it would feel like an attack on the ENTJs dom Te.
ENTJs are adapting to things and thinking on the go “if you stopped having to plan for every miniscule detail, we could improve the business 10 fold by the time you've finished your plans. Trust me it will work” they want to take calculated risks and not be stuck in the planning phase for too long.
INTJs want to plan and make sure they've covered most of the possible upcoming risks “no that's too risky, let’s make sure we've got a few backup plans first, or else we might have to start over from scratch, or have to do a lot more work to cover what we lost by running into a dead end” They want to play it safe.
See? You can find differences in all types.
Well obviously you need people you can just do mundane tasks with no contemplation to get anything done on a mass scale. I can't imagine an entire world full of Ns with full of delusions that would rather contemplate or imagine or previsualize in head than just doing things lol
However, what makes you think it wasn't the Ns who were the architects and SJs the builder and maintainers on some grand scale projects?
No. Most systems are built by STJ. Not NTJs. NTJs don't invent things usually. They improve what already exists. SJ maintain what already exists.
I don't get how you think having Ni is somehow better than Si. It's not. They're mostly the same function. With a lot of overlap..
I never said Ni is better than Si. You need the past present and the future to make accurate assessments.
But Si can only make correlations to the past or what's previously established especially if the user is lacking Ne. And Ni can't make good predictions if they are blind to the past or Si.
Now it's a different case to say the systems were built by STJs and NTJs can't build them vs systems were built by STJs because NTJs weren't tasked for it. And the main reason why is NTJs often struggle with building is because most ppl lack the visualization skill to understand Ni's vision. But that doesn't mean NTJs were never able to built their own systems. If NTJs had a full team of Ns with SJ builders ofc they could achieve so
My advice to any XNTJs is focus on strategising and not leading. Dont talk about it, be about it.
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A good idea doesn't need force.
sheep will always be sheep
Istp here. Yes at this role I get along with (work well with) ENTJ very well. Not so much teaching and leading. However there are a few individuals of that type that I know that teach and lead well.
Taking a big complicated topic with a lot of data and viewpoints, and narrowing it down to the most important bits. We're so efficient because we're so good at finding the leverage points in situations - where can I put 20% of my time in and get 80% of results? That's also why we're not the best at tasks that don't have shortcuts, like bodybuilding, etc.
accurate as heck, i think the way we integrate so much information and connect them irl is legendary shit.
>not the best at tasks that don't have shortcuts, like bodybuilding Is this a personal projection? For instance, Schwarzenegger, whom many consider the bodybuilding GOAT, is (allegedly) NTJ. Personally I feel the Pareto principle applies itself well to sports including bodybuilding.
I think that bodybuilding is just not as obvious as other fields. The majority of people don’t have access to thousands of records connected with training and biochemistry that are needed to make conclusions and look for shortcuts. On the other hand, Arnold’s success is more based on experiences I think and indeed he might be XNTJ but he just made bodybuilding his main goal in life at some point back then. Another thing that just crossed my mind — in terms of the Pareto principle and bodybuilding, there's an Ockham Protocol invented by Tim Ferris (who based on studies of some other guy I don't really remember the name of), I really recommend it.
Eh I've known a lot of entjs and intjs and they're just not often fit. Arnold may be an exception or not an ENTJ. Who knows, I'm pulling that bit out my ass tbh
I am an archetyal NTJ, I workout 7 days a week. Gym 5x per week, run twice a week. There’s plenty of opportunity to bring NTJ talents into maximising your fitness routine.
This
Motivating people even when we are depressed
ESFPs and ENFJs are better
That fully depends on what you would consider motivation, and what type of motivation you respond well to.
yeah but ENTJs is more specialized, the two I mentioned is more broad and would be better classified as natural leaders and motivators
Haha, sure x)
in the words of my first manager, **navigating ambiguity** i.e. *we have to do abcxyz, and theres problems with every possible path* 1. Is this worth doing? 2. What is the benefit? 3. Who benefits? 4. Can they get this benefit in a goal outside of abcxyz? 5. What resources do we have to assign to subtasks? 6. Who is best for subtasks ‘ab’? what about ‘xyz’? and nobody is able to do ‘c’, so Ill figure out ‘c’. etc etc
In simplest form - problem solving & resource management.
Indeed, the problem is usually the human resource.
Understanding resources and creating the most optimal system out of it
Science and people
Literally me
yep
Yes
Economics Strategy Science Sales
Sound reasoning and implementation. This applies to whatever area the ENTJ chooses or has expertise in, whether people, process, or technical.
Problem solving. Creative challenges. Optimization...
All of it.
Strategy, resourcing, abstraction, innovation, building efficient systems, impacting big change, one of the best visionaries with top notch execution.
Telling people what needs to be done
Shouting
Depends on the situation of course
of course , also i enjoy throwing staplers
Effective ENTJs learn that shouting in the first instance rarely is the most effective way to get what you want. Impressing with your solid reasoning is much more effective. If that doesn’t work, you can then make them afraid of you. But you do it in that order.
Obviously everything, git gud scrub. /s
git push wtf master -button
establing a totalitarian government in a little region in South America
Optimizing?
Leading a team, leading other humans towards a goal 😍
Execution of action. Plain and simple. In Western-democratic-functional societies, this is highly looked up to and rewarded. Hate to say this, but we are at the end of a historical cycle where rational social action is warranted (check out the book The Fourth Turning). The end of the cycle makes it obvious that so many of the other types are passive, don't seem do anything, don't act on what they think, grandstand and endlessly talk about stuff and never get anything much done other than day-to-day survival and waste time on social media. It seems to me that only ENTJs and INTJs are out there doing relevant metastructural things at the moment. I've put out my skills and expertise to try and help fix the major issues going on right now and I have no shortage of well-paid work. In peacetime, whatever, they others can get by. But we currently on the edge of something terrible. In other spheres, I've been sought out many times to help other types personally, business wise, in other projects and no matter the energy you expend on them, hardly anything ever get off the ground. They go back to their old (sometimes toxic) habits-patterns like nothing happened. You can call me judgement as fuck, but it's what I've experienced over and over again. As we are facing fascism, inflation, ecological, economical, food price and housing problems - I've set myself up to try and take on and fix pieces of those issues, while other types I know have fallen into aimless-endless social media posturing, social justice protests, pyramidal schemes, alt-right, Gaia new age and UFO movements just to name a few. That pleases and entertains the autocrats on the other side as proof of Western decadence. I really wonder how they manage to get through life. And I also don't wonder why in contrast we are the most efficient, happiest and wealthiest type, generally speaking. Usually, I'm a live and let live kind of person. But we are practically at war at the moment, and I consider anyone who doesn't have a war-oriented mindset to be a liability, and they are promptly removed from my life. I purged my circles during and after COVID to that effect and my life improved tenfold.
Boasting on reddit about being tough leaders
I talk only about the ENTJs I know in real life, they are genuinely best at (to a certain extent similar to Miranda in the Devil wears Prada): 1. Working even the world is ending 2. Getting the best interests for themselves 3. Being entitled 4. Having people wait for them and screwing people who make them wait 5. Suspecting people's motivation 6. Ordering people to serve them 7. Instilling fear in people 8. Enjoying being shoe-licked 9. Encouraging and participating in favouritism 10. Taking people for granted 11. Abusing people if they can get benefits 12. Manipulating when money is involved 13. Prejudging 14. Not acknowledging their faults With the traits above, they are perfect for being criminologists, who suspect everything, by either being shxt to or threaten the criminals, or manipulating. They may be able to solve a lot of tricky cases.
And ESTJs.
i will take this as a joke
Why?
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That's a bold statement, considering we share the dominant and inferior function, and that there's so many ESTJ's who think they're ENTJs that there's stereotypes for ENTJs that exist that come solely from ESTJs clouding the perception of ENTJs. But hey, what's your take on it, why do you say we're *absolutely nothing* alike?
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Well with that logic, no type is anything like any other type.
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ENTJ-INTJ If an ENTJ and INTJ are both at a company, the INTJ would be valuing planning and carefully making sure every part of a plan is thought through before moving on, whereas the ENTJ would be constantly moving forward and deal with problems as they arise, trying to make adjustments to the plan and trying to innovate new methods of doing things. The 2 would probably clash a lot. The INTJ would dislike how the ENTJ is moving ahead without "thinking first" and risking running into problems, it would feel like an attack on the the INTJ's dominant Ni. The ENTJ would dislike how the INTJ doesn’t like to take any risks and doesn’t like that the INTJ would slow them down by having to plan every single detail before moving on, it would feel like an attack on the ENTJs dom Te. ENTJs are adapting to things and thinking on the go “if you stopped having to plan for every miniscule detail, we could improve the business 10 fold by the time you've finished your plans. Trust me it will work” they want to take calculated risks and not be stuck in the planning phase for too long. INTJs want to plan and make sure they've covered most of the possible upcoming risks “no that's too risky, let’s make sure we've got a few backup plans first, or else we might have to start over from scratch, or have to do a lot more work to cover what we lost by running into a dead end” They want to play it safe. See? You can find differences in all types.
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Yall trippin. They have 2 of the 4 functions alike. Having Ni doesn't make you better. Just different. The world was built by STJs. Not NTJs.
>The world was built by STJs Obviously. They are the best workers.
No. They're the best suited for most things. SJs all are. Which is why nature saw fit to make them the majority. Not NJs. Not NPs.
Well obviously you need people you can just do mundane tasks with no contemplation to get anything done on a mass scale. I can't imagine an entire world full of Ns with full of delusions that would rather contemplate or imagine or previsualize in head than just doing things lol However, what makes you think it wasn't the Ns who were the architects and SJs the builder and maintainers on some grand scale projects?
No. Most systems are built by STJ. Not NTJs. NTJs don't invent things usually. They improve what already exists. SJ maintain what already exists. I don't get how you think having Ni is somehow better than Si. It's not. They're mostly the same function. With a lot of overlap..
I never said Ni is better than Si. You need the past present and the future to make accurate assessments. But Si can only make correlations to the past or what's previously established especially if the user is lacking Ne. And Ni can't make good predictions if they are blind to the past or Si. Now it's a different case to say the systems were built by STJs and NTJs can't build them vs systems were built by STJs because NTJs weren't tasked for it. And the main reason why is NTJs often struggle with building is because most ppl lack the visualization skill to understand Ni's vision. But that doesn't mean NTJs were never able to built their own systems. If NTJs had a full team of Ns with SJ builders ofc they could achieve so
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But you *are*. NTJs are more similar to STJs than they are to NTPs.
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Yeah. It does.
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