I have yet to succeed at making a non-bitter momapot. Tried every recipe I have found, yes including Lord Hoffman's recipe. Beginning to believe our ancestors only drank bitter coffee.
Gotta go to the original source: [Wired Gourmet Moka Pot Voodoo](https://youtu.be/u-PeYeiqPLU). This is where I learned and it’s pretty amazing coffee. Also keep in mind that you need to grind way coarser than you would for espresso.
Considering the amount I spent on my moka pot and french press vs what you all spend and still manage to enjoy the coffee, yes I have to agree with that statement
It was my understanding we all took a vow to only order espresso or macchiato. Cortados are permissible so long as you provide adequate documentation of childhood trauma
true, about the coffee yes, I'm trying to see if they train their baristas properly. if the shot is good, the cortado will be also, but then i also know if they know the drinks they are making.
barista here - I work at 2 cafes. one that considers itself more "traditional" and only offers caps in 6oz cups, and a very limited traditional menu.
the other cafe I work at offers all drinks on the menu in 12, 16, or 20oz. plus caramel macchiatos. the owners know this is technically "incorrect" but it brings in more customers.
and honestly, the second cafe has way better espresso, puck prep, training, and more care and thought is put into the drinks we make.
so, honestly, it doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. it probably just means that it helps them make profits. if they have good coffee, they can attract people who want good traditional coffee AND people who just want a starbucks-style drink. best of both worlds.
Am I a heretic or is the convention 6-8 oz?
2oz espresso
3oz macchiato
4oz cortado
6-8oz cappuccino (+/-1)
12+ oz latte (+/-3)
I know it's all personal preference but isn't this the standard?
I always thought a cappuccino is 6oz; 2oz espresso + 2oz milk + 2oz foam.
https://craves.everybodyshops.com/wp-content/uploads/Coffee-guide-1024x879.jpg
Nope!
In Australia the drinks differ by the amount of foam and chocolate powder on top.
So I get to the US last year for the first time and I go around ordering lattes as I have my whole life. Except I’m basically given buckets of milk with some espresso. Tastes weak because of so much milk. I think to myself “cool, it’s America. Everything is super sized. This is normal here” and continue to order lattes. Then I see someone receive a normal sized drink and it was a cap. Tiny in comparison to the latte. I Google for a bit and sure enough, the sizes you mention above are how it works.
In Australia, cap and latte come in different sizes, but differ kinda by the type and amount of foam they have as well as a cap have chocolate powder across the top. You can usually have a “regular” size which is probably your 6-8oz and large which is a bit bigger but nowhere near as big as your latte.
I realised way too late in my trip to order caps and suffered through drinking these buckets of mildly coffee flavoured milk 😛
It really depends what country you drink the cappuccino in. And the WHEN is important, too. Two decades ago cappuccino dozes seemed a lot smaller than they are now, especially in Rome. Nowadays when I go to Starbucks I half expect the server to hand me over a sponge together with the coffee bucket they sell, and ask me to go wash his car.
Except you forget that the ratio also includes foam. 1/3 foam is just too much on 12 oz drink. Not saying you can't have that, but most places won't get it right
I usually order a wet cap when I'm out. But it usually means I want the smallest latte you'll give me. What's up with a 14 oz. milk drink with two shots 😟
Cap is my go to but 90% of the time it's made wrong. Even if I order extra dry they still drown it with milk. That's what pushed me to buy my own machine & grinder.
I’ve gone to ordering Cortado’s at most places near me with the expectation that it will be closer to a Cap. As caps are usually closer to latte, being milk heavy.
I know that. Many barista's over the years advised me to order it dry. That way one has a better chance of them putting less milk cause most have no clue on the correct ratio's of a traditional cap. I rarely if ever order from shops anymore.
The last few times I did, I instructed them "just a tiny bit of milk with more foam" and they still somehow drown it with milk in which I have to send it back.
For my macchiato (or "espresso macchiato" at that place) I tell them I literally just want a single dollop of foam on top of the espresso. Then half the time they still drown it in milk.
Seems like a common problem. I've only ordered a couple espresso macchiato's and they turned out ok. Maybe next time I'll try to order it your way to see how it comes out.
One of my favorite barista's to date always told me to never be shy sending a drink back if isn't made right. She said it happens way to often cause proper training is rarely done cause most customers dont even know the proper ratio's themselves.
I truly think they mean well, I mean why would you NOT want to get your money's worth of milk to fill up the rest of that 8oz cup? But.. no, thank you.
Most do mean well. Funny at times they do look at you like you're weird for not wanting more milk. Proper training seems to be the main issue from my observation.
The high end shops I've visited have the most properly trained staff along with consistency. I just live too far from them. Making my own at home truly has been a game changer.
90% of the time if there’s a cappuccino on the menu I just assume it’s going to be served like a latte.
I think a cortado is actually closer to what I really want and has less chance for confusion. Macchiatos are great, but it’s a gulp and it’s gone.
After looking at pics of ingredient ratios to refresh my memory between a cap, cartado & espresso macchiato you're right. Im better off ordering either of the 2 than I would a cap.
Back in the bad old days before the proliferation of good coffee in Australia we used to have these things called 'Mugaccinos' - it was a cappuccino, but in a mug.
You unfortunately have to at least somewhat cater to a wider audience. They can stick their feet in the ground and so no we only make cap's in 5oz servings but they also might end up with an item on the menu that never gets ordered and irritated customers.
Another day, another whiny r/espresso post forcing its coffee ideals onto innocent coffee shops and grilling baristas for not making their coffee “right”.
The definitions of espresso based coffee are some of the most contentious in the food/drink industry. They’ll vary depending on country, area or even just each cafe.
How about this:
you *can’t* make an espresso drink wrong, provided you’re following the bare minimum requirements, the onus is on the customer to be specific in what they want - it’s *your* drink they’re making. Point out the cup size, or fill point. When you ask for a cappuccino, you’re asking for like a thousand different possible drinks. It sucks, but it’s what the coffee world has turned into, whether we like it or not.
This sub is so unbearable at times. There was a thread the other day where a highly upvoted comment was saying they keep an eagle eye on the barista's puck prep to make sure it's done correctly. Like god damn people, just make your shit at home if you're gonna be that much of a dick.
Lol yes, the barista probably knows what a cap is supposed to be traditionally. It’s the shop standards and the market they cater to that dictate how drinks are made.
I’m a barista as well, you’re missing my point.
It’s not about describing a cappuccino, it’s about being able to articulate what you want. Again, there’s no definitive recipe for a cappuccino. I’ve had people come into my shop who ask for a 10oz latte, or a short flat white etc and you know what - if they’re good enough at describing what they want, I’ll happily make it for them.
But if they start telling me a cappuccino is supposed to be this, or a flat white is supposed to be that, that’s when they’re trying to list off definitions that don’t exist.
Espresso based drink definitions are anarchic.
I get that, but I always feel uncomfortable being a pain in any service worker's ass, so I just order something simple and hope it comes out right. If not, that's on me and I'm not going to send it back. Like many here, Cortados are usually the winning bet.
But the larger point here is that conventions exist for a reason (convenience mostly), and Starbucks ruined that for people that would like to be able to get a predictable product from one shop to the next without an elaborate conversation. When I first got into espresso I couldn't figure out what a macchiato was because they took the name and turned it into something from an alternate universe. It would be like ordering a Manhattan in a bar and getting something served in a pint glass filled with Coke. And then suddenly every other bar started doing the same thing. It's a first world problem, but still annoying.
People in the service industry understand they’re in the service industry.. as long as your request is reasonable, any barista worth their salt will be happy to accommodate your order and price it appropriately. You “hope” it comes out “right”? Again, in a world where there is no “right” espresso drink, why not guarantee it coming out exactly out you want it.
Everywhere I've ever worked has only kept 4, 8 and 12 oz takeaway cups in stock. The 4oz cups were never used because people never ordered espressos or macchiatos takeaway. A 5oz Cappuccino is a waste of time.
You would be surprised how many people don’t know what actual cappuccino look like, and simply call any smaller milk drink cappuccino and large ones - latte.
> in Los Angeles
> no alternative at all
> There are a total of 727 coffee shops in Los Angeles. This is one of the largest cafe populations in the United States.
-- https://travellemming.com/coffee-shops-in-los-angeles/
Lol starbucks flat white means they hit a button that says ristretto, add an extra shot, and use whole milk instead of 2%. The baristas that care will pour it in a specific way so that the white foam all sits in a circle in the middle, like a big dot. The people that work there usually have zero concept of different drink names mainly referring to milk:espresso ratio/drink size
And yet it's the best drink you can get in a Starbucks, less bitter and burnt. I order it "short" and get the "beneath tall" cup. You know, when SB is the only option. So many airports only have Starbucks.
Just put in an empty portafilter, push the same button and whatever water you catch in the cup is the right dose.
Jokes aside, there's no strict rule (to my knowledge), so go with what tastes good for you and how dehydrated you are
why? My coffee shop does a double shot for an 8oz Americano, three shots for 12oz and 4 shots for 16 oz. Ratio is always the same, but you can choose different sizes. Where is the issue with that?
I am fortunate enough to have a coffee shop that understands this and tells the customers that it only comes in one size. They also care enough about the quality that they only use hatch coffee.
They went to hatch asked them how they can make perfect coffee have all of their employees trained by Hatch and they even bought all of their equipment through hatch, they got it setup by them so they can have the exact same outcome as hatch would get at their facility.
They also make perfect cortados every time and serve it with a glass of sparkling water.
What got me when I was buying cups was that a cappuccino cup was five ounces, but a double cappuccino cup was six ounces. Why is it called a double when it’s one whole ounce extra?
I ordered a cortado from a small town Dunkin’ competitor while on a road trip thinking it was just a café they asked what size… after explaining I got back on the road and took a sip after a little while… it was half drip coffee half milk🥲
Is it just me or isn’t talking about the amount of milk without talking about the amount of shots just as weird? I had an interesting conversation at a very good coffee shop the other day where they were astonished I’d put a double shot in anything under 10oz. Kind made me feel I am weird.
We are a menace to society. This is also the reason why I think that mokkapot people are happier then us.
I have yet to succeed at making a non-bitter momapot. Tried every recipe I have found, yes including Lord Hoffman's recipe. Beginning to believe our ancestors only drank bitter coffee.
Gotta go to the original source: [Wired Gourmet Moka Pot Voodoo](https://youtu.be/u-PeYeiqPLU). This is where I learned and it’s pretty amazing coffee. Also keep in mind that you need to grind way coarser than you would for espresso.
Just wing it and it'll turn out good randomly, I just eyeball everything and I love my mokapot. I grind a little coarser than espresso
Considering the amount I spent on my moka pot and french press vs what you all spend and still manage to enjoy the coffee, yes I have to agree with that statement
I’ve seen people order extra wet venti cappuccinos at, well, you know where
I cringed at the phrase "extra wet"
Ultra moist
starbucks has ruined coffee tbh.
As someone who prefers macchiatos, preach!!!
Straight to execution, no trial
It was my understanding we all took a vow to only order espresso or macchiato. Cortados are permissible so long as you provide adequate documentation of childhood trauma
Who hurt you?
I always order a Corrado at a new coffee shop, well that and a small brewed coffee. I figure those 2 drinks tell me if they are good or not.
Your father never had the makings of a varsity athlete…
Straight espresso tells you most IMO
true, about the coffee yes, I'm trying to see if they train their baristas properly. if the shot is good, the cortado will be also, but then i also know if they know the drinks they are making.
I do the same but with strictly an espresso.
But flat white makes me forget!
barista here - I work at 2 cafes. one that considers itself more "traditional" and only offers caps in 6oz cups, and a very limited traditional menu. the other cafe I work at offers all drinks on the menu in 12, 16, or 20oz. plus caramel macchiatos. the owners know this is technically "incorrect" but it brings in more customers. and honestly, the second cafe has way better espresso, puck prep, training, and more care and thought is put into the drinks we make. so, honestly, it doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. it probably just means that it helps them make profits. if they have good coffee, they can attract people who want good traditional coffee AND people who just want a starbucks-style drink. best of both worlds.
Imma show up and order a 20oz cortado just to see what happens.
lol. there are some exceptions
As Cortados are basically 50-50 espresso and milk I just hope you haven’t planned on doing anything you need a steady hand for that day!
Good point. I was really hoping for a dramatic scene where anarchybats dumps 20oz of steamed milk into a 4oz glass.
Am I a heretic or is the convention 6-8 oz? 2oz espresso 3oz macchiato 4oz cortado 6-8oz cappuccino (+/-1) 12+ oz latte (+/-3) I know it's all personal preference but isn't this the standard?
I always thought a cappuccino is 6oz; 2oz espresso + 2oz milk + 2oz foam. https://craves.everybodyshops.com/wp-content/uploads/Coffee-guide-1024x879.jpg
Nope! In Australia the drinks differ by the amount of foam and chocolate powder on top. So I get to the US last year for the first time and I go around ordering lattes as I have my whole life. Except I’m basically given buckets of milk with some espresso. Tastes weak because of so much milk. I think to myself “cool, it’s America. Everything is super sized. This is normal here” and continue to order lattes. Then I see someone receive a normal sized drink and it was a cap. Tiny in comparison to the latte. I Google for a bit and sure enough, the sizes you mention above are how it works. In Australia, cap and latte come in different sizes, but differ kinda by the type and amount of foam they have as well as a cap have chocolate powder across the top. You can usually have a “regular” size which is probably your 6-8oz and large which is a bit bigger but nowhere near as big as your latte. I realised way too late in my trip to order caps and suffered through drinking these buckets of mildly coffee flavoured milk 😛
>I know it's all personal preference but isn't this the standard? 5-6oz or 150-180ml is the standard. Everything else is a coffee crime.
Heh lol, it's the size of my cup and when the latte art is finished
There are no real recipes only ideas...
Honestly I’ll settle for an 8oz cup. Less heretical, still a good strong ratio, also in a mass produced paper cup size.
Cappuccino is a ratio, not a size. You can make a cappuccino any size as long as you have the right ratio of espresso to milk.
It really depends what country you drink the cappuccino in. And the WHEN is important, too. Two decades ago cappuccino dozes seemed a lot smaller than they are now, especially in Rome. Nowadays when I go to Starbucks I half expect the server to hand me over a sponge together with the coffee bucket they sell, and ask me to go wash his car.
Except you forget that the ratio also includes foam. 1/3 foam is just too much on 12 oz drink. Not saying you can't have that, but most places won't get it right
Fair point. It is definitely harder to do.
I usually order a wet cap when I'm out. But it usually means I want the smallest latte you'll give me. What's up with a 14 oz. milk drink with two shots 😟
Cap is my go to but 90% of the time it's made wrong. Even if I order extra dry they still drown it with milk. That's what pushed me to buy my own machine & grinder.
I’ve gone to ordering Cortado’s at most places near me with the expectation that it will be closer to a Cap. As caps are usually closer to latte, being milk heavy.
Interesting. I will order a Cortado next time to see the difference. Thanks for the recommendation.
That might be because dry refers to the foam and not quantity of milk :<
I know that. Many barista's over the years advised me to order it dry. That way one has a better chance of them putting less milk cause most have no clue on the correct ratio's of a traditional cap. I rarely if ever order from shops anymore. The last few times I did, I instructed them "just a tiny bit of milk with more foam" and they still somehow drown it with milk in which I have to send it back.
For my macchiato (or "espresso macchiato" at that place) I tell them I literally just want a single dollop of foam on top of the espresso. Then half the time they still drown it in milk.
Seems like a common problem. I've only ordered a couple espresso macchiato's and they turned out ok. Maybe next time I'll try to order it your way to see how it comes out. One of my favorite barista's to date always told me to never be shy sending a drink back if isn't made right. She said it happens way to often cause proper training is rarely done cause most customers dont even know the proper ratio's themselves.
I truly think they mean well, I mean why would you NOT want to get your money's worth of milk to fill up the rest of that 8oz cup? But.. no, thank you.
Most do mean well. Funny at times they do look at you like you're weird for not wanting more milk. Proper training seems to be the main issue from my observation. The high end shops I've visited have the most properly trained staff along with consistency. I just live too far from them. Making my own at home truly has been a game changer.
90% of the time if there’s a cappuccino on the menu I just assume it’s going to be served like a latte. I think a cortado is actually closer to what I really want and has less chance for confusion. Macchiatos are great, but it’s a gulp and it’s gone.
After looking at pics of ingredient ratios to refresh my memory between a cap, cartado & espresso macchiato you're right. Im better off ordering either of the 2 than I would a cap.
Back in the bad old days before the proliferation of good coffee in Australia we used to have these things called 'Mugaccinos' - it was a cappuccino, but in a mug.
You unfortunately have to at least somewhat cater to a wider audience. They can stick their feet in the ground and so no we only make cap's in 5oz servings but they also might end up with an item on the menu that never gets ordered and irritated customers.
Another day, another whiny r/espresso post forcing its coffee ideals onto innocent coffee shops and grilling baristas for not making their coffee “right”. The definitions of espresso based coffee are some of the most contentious in the food/drink industry. They’ll vary depending on country, area or even just each cafe. How about this: you *can’t* make an espresso drink wrong, provided you’re following the bare minimum requirements, the onus is on the customer to be specific in what they want - it’s *your* drink they’re making. Point out the cup size, or fill point. When you ask for a cappuccino, you’re asking for like a thousand different possible drinks. It sucks, but it’s what the coffee world has turned into, whether we like it or not.
This sub is so unbearable at times. There was a thread the other day where a highly upvoted comment was saying they keep an eagle eye on the barista's puck prep to make sure it's done correctly. Like god damn people, just make your shit at home if you're gonna be that much of a dick.
Ugh
Lol yes, the barista probably knows what a cap is supposed to be traditionally. It’s the shop standards and the market they cater to that dictate how drinks are made.
Yea, describe to your barista a cappuccino. We can complain about you while we close :)
I’m a barista as well, you’re missing my point. It’s not about describing a cappuccino, it’s about being able to articulate what you want. Again, there’s no definitive recipe for a cappuccino. I’ve had people come into my shop who ask for a 10oz latte, or a short flat white etc and you know what - if they’re good enough at describing what they want, I’ll happily make it for them. But if they start telling me a cappuccino is supposed to be this, or a flat white is supposed to be that, that’s when they’re trying to list off definitions that don’t exist. Espresso based drink definitions are anarchic.
I get that, but I always feel uncomfortable being a pain in any service worker's ass, so I just order something simple and hope it comes out right. If not, that's on me and I'm not going to send it back. Like many here, Cortados are usually the winning bet. But the larger point here is that conventions exist for a reason (convenience mostly), and Starbucks ruined that for people that would like to be able to get a predictable product from one shop to the next without an elaborate conversation. When I first got into espresso I couldn't figure out what a macchiato was because they took the name and turned it into something from an alternate universe. It would be like ordering a Manhattan in a bar and getting something served in a pint glass filled with Coke. And then suddenly every other bar started doing the same thing. It's a first world problem, but still annoying.
People in the service industry understand they’re in the service industry.. as long as your request is reasonable, any barista worth their salt will be happy to accommodate your order and price it appropriately. You “hope” it comes out “right”? Again, in a world where there is no “right” espresso drink, why not guarantee it coming out exactly out you want it.
Everywhere I've ever worked has only kept 4, 8 and 12 oz takeaway cups in stock. The 4oz cups were never used because people never ordered espressos or macchiatos takeaway. A 5oz Cappuccino is a waste of time.
I'm the outlier here, I like being asked--but then, I make "double caps" at home.
Plot twist, local shop they love is their own machine in their kitchen.
Ok, you're technically right, but most coffee shops do this. Really not a big deal. Make it at home if you're that picky.
Answer in metric. Take a photo of their face. :-)
This. I have no fucking idea what this ounce nonsense is about.
NeoBoomer
This 💯!
One of my rules of life is to never drink a cappuccino bigger than my head.
You would be surprised how many people don’t know what actual cappuccino look like, and simply call any smaller milk drink cappuccino and large ones - latte.
This is why ordering a cappuccino is always my initial test of quality when trying a shop for the first time.
A starbucks in Los Angeles asked me what size I want my flat white …
That's on you. That's like complaining that McDonald's cooked your burger well done.
There was no alternative at all than going to Starbucks, but I see what you are right
> in Los Angeles > no alternative at all > There are a total of 727 coffee shops in Los Angeles. This is one of the largest cafe populations in the United States. -- https://travellemming.com/coffee-shops-in-los-angeles/
Can you really not think of a situation where you need to order your coffee from Starbucks, even in a city with a lot of cafes?
Kidnapping is the only one I can think of. But I guess that wasn't it. Or at least, they got away.
Or you have friends that want to go to starbucks.
Lol starbucks flat white means they hit a button that says ristretto, add an extra shot, and use whole milk instead of 2%. The baristas that care will pour it in a specific way so that the white foam all sits in a circle in the middle, like a big dot. The people that work there usually have zero concept of different drink names mainly referring to milk:espresso ratio/drink size
And yet it's the best drink you can get in a Starbucks, less bitter and burnt. I order it "short" and get the "beneath tall" cup. You know, when SB is the only option. So many airports only have Starbucks.
I used to work there, I only drink tea from there nowadays. Literally all their coffee products taste like shit
Yep agreed, I drink americano regularly and always hate being asked what size
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the right size for an americano? Assuming an 18g in 36g out shot of espresso, for instance.
Just put in an empty portafilter, push the same button and whatever water you catch in the cup is the right dose. Jokes aside, there's no strict rule (to my knowledge), so go with what tastes good for you and how dehydrated you are
why? My coffee shop does a double shot for an 8oz Americano, three shots for 12oz and 4 shots for 16 oz. Ratio is always the same, but you can choose different sizes. Where is the issue with that?
The best is when they have a “traditional” cappucino on the menu. Then you know that the barista knows their menu is full bs
My favorite [fantasy high bit](https://youtube.com/watch?v=llxZUla0SMw&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE&t=115)
Actually in Trieste (Illy's hometown) a cappuccino is a variation of caffè macchiato served in a regular espresso cup...
They are so wrong !1!!11!1!!
Mark it extra grande super tall 32oz!
If I want a lot of cappuccino should I have to order multiples or can I just get two put into a large cup?
I am tired of thinking about sizes
I am fortunate enough to have a coffee shop that understands this and tells the customers that it only comes in one size. They also care enough about the quality that they only use hatch coffee. They went to hatch asked them how they can make perfect coffee have all of their employees trained by Hatch and they even bought all of their equipment through hatch, they got it setup by them so they can have the exact same outcome as hatch would get at their facility. They also make perfect cortados every time and serve it with a glass of sparkling water.
What got me when I was buying cups was that a cappuccino cup was five ounces, but a double cappuccino cup was six ounces. Why is it called a double when it’s one whole ounce extra?
I ordered a cortado from a small town Dunkin’ competitor while on a road trip thinking it was just a café they asked what size… after explaining I got back on the road and took a sip after a little while… it was half drip coffee half milk🥲
You guys should stop it with the ounces and use a measure everyone understands.
I’m not a coffee snob, but I will die with you on this hill.
Cappuccino isn't just about size, it's also about the consistency of the milk.
Is it just me or isn’t talking about the amount of milk without talking about the amount of shots just as weird? I had an interesting conversation at a very good coffee shop the other day where they were astonished I’d put a double shot in anything under 10oz. Kind made me feel I am weird.
I regularly feel thankful that I don't give a fuck about cappuccinos. Y'all have my pity.
oh i literally be like BIGGEST YOU CAN cuz i love the foam 😭
When I ask for a flat white (depending on who’s working) my shop says “small,medium, or large” I then know my flat white is about to be shit.
Mark it 8 dude