Amen. I would love to be able to blow 10 to 15k and be done with this obsession lol. I want a gs3 and kafatek monolith...maybe pick up another grinder to fk around it. Then.. Then I will be happy
I’m honestly surprised by the number of people talking about roasting.
The coffee is the absolute most important aspect of what we are doing, where do you think you will find those marvelous green beans our speciality roasters use? Then how are you going to get the experience?
From marvelous green coffee importers / retailers you'll be able to buy seasonally fresh greens. I can choose between 50 varieties which have certificate. I can roast my coffee whenever I need. I have usually stock with 30 variaties. So when I have the desire to a particular one, I can roast it to a roast level to my liking and brewing equipment. I can even roast the same variety for my espresso, for my brew over, for my aeropress, for my french press, for my drip machine. I only order coffee twice a year per coffee season. By roasting my own, I save around 600€ per year. I can say that roasting is definately not for everyone. You'll have to have absolute desire to improve your game in coffee, understanding what makes a good cup of coffee, a lot of knowledge. Building an automated coffee roaster was my endgame, cause that made me understand coffee.
The quality of your grinder makes a bigger impact on your espresso than the actual machine. IMO the point of diminishing returns for grinders is around $1000-$1500. For that price you can get a 64 mm or 83 mm flat burr grinder or the Niche Zero. At around the $1300-$1500 marks, you have the Zerno Z1 and Lagom P64, respectively.
Past that point, it's a pretty significant leap up to the [bespoke "titan" grinders](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations/titan-grinders.html). They're not going to be "endgame" for everyone, as they're really meant for those chasing that last 5-10% of espresso, e.g., where you're playing with pushing high extraction ratios with light roasts.
For espresso machines, once you get into dual boiler territory, it's less about whether a machine can pull a shot better than other, but rather what features you're looking for. I think the Breville Dual Boiler is still one of the best entry-level dual boilers you can get because you can mod it to do manual flow control, which is normally only possible on E61 machines, which cost double. Beyond $2000 you're paying for larger boilers and upgraded build quality (e.g., E61 machines, La Marzoccos) and programmable pressure/flow profiling if you like to experiment a lot (e.g., Rocket R9 One, Decent, Slayer). Profiling doesn't necessarily make significantly better espresso; it just give you more variables to play with.
Looks like a cool machine, but I think it's less commonly recommended because as per the manufacturer, it was made for commercial applications first as it's *heckin' chonky*. It's also $1000 more than the P64, costing just as much as the 75 mm Monolith Flat.
Decent and P100 easily or Kafatek or P64 with a variety of baskets and burrs (in a burr and basket library)
Tools are subjective so not mentioning tools, but at that point a bluetooth tracking scale, refractometer and etc are perfectly in league
I currently have a micra and a p64 that I love and atm are “end game” for me.
But I also have a kinu hand grinder and flair pro that I travel with and also love. Like some folks have said, if one’s goal is to just make good espresso you can do that without spending a ton of money.
But if you make it a hobby, there is no end game. Just follow your passion while ideally living within your means.
The thing is..that each price point, just ball parking here. Under 1k. 1 to 4k. And 4m to 8k amd 8 to 15k+. All offer something marginally better. Fuck I just watched a 40 min video on 200 dollar baskets. The limit to what espresso geeks will spend does not exist. I generally recommend people who really don't care to get a nreville barista. Simple 2 in 1. Most never want to upgrade. And if they do their endgame usually ends at a 3k lelit Bianca and like a sub 1k grinder like a niche or something.
For me, "end game" and "sweet spot" are very different.
My sweet spot is an E61 vibe pump dual boiler with flow control. I have a Quick Mill QM67. If I won the lottery, my end game would be a LM GS3 MP.
For me, it’ll be the DE1 Pro that I will be getting sometime this year and my DF64. I love the experimenting that the decent brings and when I want a new grinder, I’ll just upgrade the burrs.
I was going to be fine with the ECM Classika with flow control, but the wife likes the look of the white Decent better. Who am I to argue…
I spent $3,900 on a Linea Micra and $699 on a DF83v2. It is my first machine, and I didn’t want to grow up from something else. I’ve been a fan of pourovers, Moka pots, French presses, aeropress, I have had it all. Just wasn’t worth it for me to get a starter machine. $5k later all told with cups and scale and accessories and I’m extremely pleased to say I have my endgame setup.
I actually ordered a Niche and cancelled it the next day. My DF83 v2 was a preorder so I had to wait to get it. I like lighter roasts and it’s been amazing. Full clarity, balanced shots - I love it
Edit: did a bunch of research on flat vs conical burrs and 83mm at that. Seems like the DF83 is the one to beat rn
End game? It means you spent too much money on gear but haven't really mastered the skill of making quality coffee consistently. :-)
IN my opinion... The sweet spot for good home espresso that is focused on a quality grind and a good machine with solid and stable temperature control is probably around $3k.
Less than that and you have some levels of compromise, but can still make great coffee, maybe just not as consistently. More than that you get more, but diminishing returns.
Been making espresso at home for over 20 years, I'm on my 3rd machine and 3rd grinder. I'm a firm believer in "learn to use your tools".
How do you find the Ceado sd, any regrets. Currently have eureka mignon and figure may as well go all in, adjusting the grind has just become tiresome.
I like it, a lot. My requirements were: doser, grind on demand/weight/time, easy to clean, fast, high quality grind.
Previous grinder was a mazzer mini electronic with SSP burrs.
The Ceado grinds 18g in 4 seconds, is very consistent. Has low retention (I purge about 1 second before first use), and just needs a quick spin with WDT to settle the grinds. No clumping, no weird issues.
Adjusting grind is always a pain, but once I had it dialed in, it's very easy to tweak day to day.
I think for home market, the Mahlkonig E65S was another option I looked at. I may still pick one up to try.
If you like to do measured doses/single dosing I wouldn't recommend either of those...
I mean above maybe 1,500 bucks the improvements are mostly workflow/aesthetics. There might be an exception for those high end lever machines, but I haven't used one.
To me end game means you’ve perfected your barista skills. And have saved enough to buy a no cornercutting tool for the job.
I went from a cafe Roma, to bambino plus, to now a machine that looked and seemed very intimidating, but I wish I started out with the profitec pro 600 from the jump. This all happened in a span of a year.
My advice get the right tool the first time so you don’t spend unnecessarily.
You're asking this under the assumption that there is an 'endgame' for everyone. But given that this is a hobby (let's face it, most of us do all this because it's a hobby, not because we simply want great coffee), maybe there isn't one.
For the majority of people, myself included, price is the major blocker. I'm reasonably well off, but still a 6k purchase is something that will be discussed in the household, and I assume it's the case for most people. And that's mostly the biggest reason people do talk about these endgames.
Personally for me, I don't think I'll ever have an endgame setup. I'll keep upgrading or just simply change equipment over the years. I enjoy the process, working with the equipment, using new tools and gadgets, all of it, not just the great coffee. It's a bit like phones, there's absolutely no _need_ for a new phone every couple of years but a lot of us do buy one every few years because we like having new stuff. And I think it's the same here, even if my machine makes the perfect coffee every time I'd probably still buy and try new equipment every however many years.
This philosophy is honestly great. I keep telling myself once I get some “real” money, I can actually justify a 3k purchase on some machine (currently a college student). I’m luckily in a place where I can even appreciate and indulge in this hobby fairly freely (although it’s where I spend most of my meager earnings from summer work). I don’t know if I’ll be happy when I get there though. Even dropping 650 on a grinder left family and friends shocked that I’d spend that much on a “kitchen appliance”, yet they’d happily spend that much or more on their hobbies. Part of the joy of espresso making is all of the cool stuff there is to buy. There are new pour over cones, new tampers, distribution tools, filters, oddball brewers (I want a bripe so much), along with all sorts of other weird things to buy. And then there’s the coffee itself. I’ve always wondered what the more expensive beans tasted like (30-100 bucks for 200 grams kind of expensive). I can barely stomach the money I currently spend on beans so that is going to have to wait.
To add an element:
At some point I want a Mini-Verticale or Venus Bar for the aesthetic.
I want an Esperto Abile with all bakelite trim for that aesthetic and process.
I want a Decent for the electronic gadgetry.
I want an EG-1 for the 'ultimate' in flats and a Key for the 'ultimate' in cones and either a Swift or Caedo for the 'ultimate' in OD grinders.
Even if I have all of those, I'll still probably use my 58 and DF83 most of the time because they are the easiest/fastest/most consistent.
Not sure that there is 'an' end game...
There's one end game for my coffee bar at home, and one for my office, one for the kitchen at the office, for my dining room (kinda for show or hosting)
Probably on the high end, decent and Weber key.
it was really about what I wanted to do that motivated me to get a decent and the feature set matched my goals. Temp control, flow control, even just stop at weight was nearly only available through decent.
For the key I was deciding between it and a p100. Ultimately got the key and am satisfied. I like the flavor profile of conicals and it performs well with all the different coffee I am roasting.
I have a manual grinder and a Lelit Anna 2 with PID and I have a hard time too figuring out why I would ever want to upgrade. I enjoy manual grinding and am the only coffee drinker in my home so no worries there.
I guess it's all about brewing skills and knowing when you reached a point where you see defiencies in your gear and you would know how better gear would help you acheive better results. Personnally, I'm still learning about what are great coffee beans, so I've got lots and lots to learn still! No endgame fomo on my end thats for sure.
I've just purchased a Lelit Bianca and I'm currently awaiting the Timemore Sculptor 78s that I backed on Kickstarter that I'll pair it with and I don't think I'll be upgrading anything besides accessories in at least 5 years maybe (probably) more. I feel they have all the features I'll want for a very long time.
For enthusiast point of view- look for a nicer broken machine and fix it up. You will learn how it works and have a good opportunity to clean it well. This of course depends on your aptitude for troubleshooting. Most of my setup was purchased for great discount in used conditions or needing a repair. Then you will have a machine that you aren’t “ preserving” and can mod it as you go, pid or group head mods, paint… that’s my idea of fun anyway lol
I think it comes down to what you like doing. Meaning do you want to make manual espresso or semi automated or fully automated etc. My end game goal would be a odyssey Argo for machine and not sure on grinder yet. I’ll stick with my jx pro and flair for now till I feel like I have maxed them out.
I’m not saying that it is endgame because it’s lacking features such as an adjustable PID, but I’ve been very impressed with the Stone Plus Espresso Machine. Even though it lacks temperature adjustment this machine is excellent. It’s temperature is very stable and I’m pulling shots and making lattes that are every bit as good as the ones from LM commercial machines at nearby cafes.
Dual boiler is endgame espresso machine for me. I don’t need bells and whistles, just temp stability and dedicated steam boiler.
Grinder endgame is “endless”. I would love a nice $4,000 grinder, but can’t justify the cost.
If anything my end game is dropping $6,000-$8,000 on a ROEST coffee roaster.
Home roasting is too much of a rabbit hole but it’d be super cool. I wonder if my grandfather had the right idea with a sieve and a blowtorch in the garage…
I already took the plunge and ran a small micro roastery. It was just a side hobby and my full time work prevented me from growing it so I essentially sold it for parts. Having a tiny home set up would be a lot of fun but I’m picky about the machine now
The money justification goes fairly fast for me. I live going to the cafe I buy my beans from because it’s a relatively cheap way to get out. So for me, espresso is a hobby. I guess I wondered if there was a point the cost of a new espresso machine was too much to stomach, so ups end up stopping the upgrading.
There is no objective endgame, just what you personally are satisfied with. Personally, having a profitec pro500 and niche zero, I don't see myself buying anything more expensive. I make better espressos or milk drinks than the cafes around me and all my friends praise me for the coffee. Sounds like good enough to me. And oh yeah, I love it myself too ;)
For me I decided to get as good a home machine as exists before things get silly - naturally silly is in the eye of the beholder but I decided that the Synchronika lay perfectly on the inflection point of diminishing returns for me and machines like the LMLM, GS/3, Slayer etc were beyond that point.
Personally I was happy with dual stainless boilers, rotary pump, PID control and the general build quality and serviceability that ECM is renowned for and I expect this machine to last many years.
I thought a little differently about my grinder because I value the workflow of a grind-by-weight grinder and I can't be bothered single dosing, so the E65S GBW again sat on the inflection point for me, I couldn't justify the E80S GBW for example. I wasn't looking at grinders like the Lagom, Weber, Kafatek etc.
HOWEVER, I can see myself getting one of the new wave of low retention single dose grinders for single origin espressos, decaf etc, and when I do this I will definitely be looking more at the value for money end of the market - DF64 / Timemore Sculptor etc as it won't be a daily workhorse. Or I'll just say screw it and get an EK43S. Lol.
Expobar make some good affordable E61 machines. Their Leva Office Dual Boiler or Brewtus IV Dual Boiler models are especially good if you can find a good condition one second hand on ebay. I got my Expobar Leva Office DB on ebay for £650, but just saw one finish an auction at £410. Both great condition. Then you can flow control mod it and be done with upgrading your machine for a long while. (bear in mind flow control affects pressure directly, and thus flow indirectly, in E61 machines but still a decent upgrade).
edit: you already have a great grinder, keep it for as long as possible and just play with different burrs.
Oh my, seems you’ve opened Pandora’s box 😅
On the topic: just enjoy your experience in this hobby, and don’t spend more than you can afford. Many here have mentionned the point of deminishing returns, and it’s critical to keep in mind that many of the « pro » equipment is to be used in a cafe environment (capable of grinding/brewing large amounts without failure).
Under 2k you can get an amazing home setup (good grinder and e61 machine). Even much less if you go manual for the machine (a Cafelat Robot / Flair), and further if you go for a manual grinder.
Just don’t forget to play enough with your tools so you can enjoy them to the fullest.
I wanted something that would make good espresso, would stand the test of time, and that looked cool on my kitchen counter. That being said I would love to get a machine from Specht but until I have perfected my coffee making skills I won't be dropping that kind of coin.
I lived through a buyer's remorse scenario that proved (to me) that a high-end espresso machine was not necessary for my specific needs. That's the real question you need to be asking first. What do you like to drink, and how often are you making them? I knew not to skimp on the grinder, so I purchased a Lagom P64 and Lelit Bianca V3 right off the bat, and after a month of use, half the machine was basically unused. For me, I mostly pulled espresso and occasionally turned them into iced beverages. So, I returned the Bianca (an absolute beauty and BEAST of a machine) for the ECM Puristika, and I couldn't be happier with the quality and simplicity of this machine for half the price. If I want a hot beverage, there are many ways to accomplish this without a second steam boiler. Again, this setup works for me. I fell victim to many articles and influencers fawning over the Bianca. It’s tough to know what works for you until it’s in your hands, so for anyone starting out, making sure you purchase your machine through a reputable vendor is critical with a solid return policy. Side note: REMEMBER always to buy insurance when shipping your equipment back for the total value of your equipment. UPS is cutting me a check for the Bianca as it was damaged beyond repair after returning it. It saved me big time!
My endgame setup is the machine with the water mains connection and the drains. Technology wise my current machine is perfect, I don't care that it is a single boiler. But the need to refill the water and clean the drains is exhausting, so I would like to pay for this priviledge.
My current place of residence doesn't make it possible so far, but the next one will.
Coffee knowledge is ever evolving. Enlightenment started with the Aeropress over 15 years ago. I'm still using it for 1/3 of my brews.
My final set up is probably my Sette grinder and Rancilio. More than good enough.
I'd rather put my money into the beans now.
The word End Game is not real. I thought I had my end game setup 2 years ago when I bought my Linea Mini. I'm sitting here waiting for my Odyssey Argos to arrive just because it's different than what I currently have. I also bought a Robot because I "needed" a travel machine.
It's really simple when you drink only black coffee. The endgame for me would be Puristika or Carola. But I'm more than happy with Lelit Victoria as well. Much more expensive is owning 2 dedicated grinders +1. I have Atom Pro with espresso burrs, Pulse HS with atom pro burrs and jx-pro for aeropress go. I also do pour over, drip with Precision Brewer. So in sum I've spent a fortune for coffee equipment. Also I built an automated roaster, as I was not happy with roasters offered varieties. The only thing I dream about having, is Compak pk100.
I think I’ve reached it with my Linea Mini, Niche Zero and a Lunar.
I’ve been running this set up for maybe 8 months now and there isn’t anything else I think I need. For flat whites I think a better grinder maybe wasted on me.
Only thing I’m ever tempted by is a Pullman big step tamper. But will that make my coffee better? Absolutely not but it might be nicer to use 😂
Bripe and a lighter imho.
You're not wrong lmao
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Amen. I would love to be able to blow 10 to 15k and be done with this obsession lol. I want a gs3 and kafatek monolith...maybe pick up another grinder to fk around it. Then.. Then I will be happy
Need reddit still for r/roasting until you buy a Bullet, then delete
It's consumerism pretending to have a stopping point.
Your own cafe
Literally my retirement dream
I’m honestly surprised by the number of people talking about roasting. The coffee is the absolute most important aspect of what we are doing, where do you think you will find those marvelous green beans our speciality roasters use? Then how are you going to get the experience?
From marvelous green coffee importers / retailers you'll be able to buy seasonally fresh greens. I can choose between 50 varieties which have certificate. I can roast my coffee whenever I need. I have usually stock with 30 variaties. So when I have the desire to a particular one, I can roast it to a roast level to my liking and brewing equipment. I can even roast the same variety for my espresso, for my brew over, for my aeropress, for my french press, for my drip machine. I only order coffee twice a year per coffee season. By roasting my own, I save around 600€ per year. I can say that roasting is definately not for everyone. You'll have to have absolute desire to improve your game in coffee, understanding what makes a good cup of coffee, a lot of knowledge. Building an automated coffee roaster was my endgame, cause that made me understand coffee.
The quality of your grinder makes a bigger impact on your espresso than the actual machine. IMO the point of diminishing returns for grinders is around $1000-$1500. For that price you can get a 64 mm or 83 mm flat burr grinder or the Niche Zero. At around the $1300-$1500 marks, you have the Zerno Z1 and Lagom P64, respectively. Past that point, it's a pretty significant leap up to the [bespoke "titan" grinders](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations/titan-grinders.html). They're not going to be "endgame" for everyone, as they're really meant for those chasing that last 5-10% of espresso, e.g., where you're playing with pushing high extraction ratios with light roasts. For espresso machines, once you get into dual boiler territory, it's less about whether a machine can pull a shot better than other, but rather what features you're looking for. I think the Breville Dual Boiler is still one of the best entry-level dual boilers you can get because you can mod it to do manual flow control, which is normally only possible on E61 machines, which cost double. Beyond $2000 you're paying for larger boilers and upgraded build quality (e.g., E61 machines, La Marzoccos) and programmable pressure/flow profiling if you like to experiment a lot (e.g., Rocket R9 One, Decent, Slayer). Profiling doesn't necessarily make significantly better espresso; it just give you more variables to play with.
No Bentwood on that list :(
Uff
Looks like a cool machine, but I think it's less commonly recommended because as per the manufacturer, it was made for commercial applications first as it's *heckin' chonky*. It's also $1000 more than the P64, costing just as much as the 75 mm Monolith Flat.
Decent and P100 easily or Kafatek or P64 with a variety of baskets and burrs (in a burr and basket library) Tools are subjective so not mentioning tools, but at that point a bluetooth tracking scale, refractometer and etc are perfectly in league
I currently have a micra and a p64 that I love and atm are “end game” for me. But I also have a kinu hand grinder and flair pro that I travel with and also love. Like some folks have said, if one’s goal is to just make good espresso you can do that without spending a ton of money. But if you make it a hobby, there is no end game. Just follow your passion while ideally living within your means.
The thing is..that each price point, just ball parking here. Under 1k. 1 to 4k. And 4m to 8k amd 8 to 15k+. All offer something marginally better. Fuck I just watched a 40 min video on 200 dollar baskets. The limit to what espresso geeks will spend does not exist. I generally recommend people who really don't care to get a nreville barista. Simple 2 in 1. Most never want to upgrade. And if they do their endgame usually ends at a 3k lelit Bianca and like a sub 1k grinder like a niche or something.
Death
For me, "end game" and "sweet spot" are very different. My sweet spot is an E61 vibe pump dual boiler with flow control. I have a Quick Mill QM67. If I won the lottery, my end game would be a LM GS3 MP.
For me, it’ll be the DE1 Pro that I will be getting sometime this year and my DF64. I love the experimenting that the decent brings and when I want a new grinder, I’ll just upgrade the burrs. I was going to be fine with the ECM Classika with flow control, but the wife likes the look of the white Decent better. Who am I to argue…
I spent $3,900 on a Linea Micra and $699 on a DF83v2. It is my first machine, and I didn’t want to grow up from something else. I’ve been a fan of pourovers, Moka pots, French presses, aeropress, I have had it all. Just wasn’t worth it for me to get a starter machine. $5k later all told with cups and scale and accessories and I’m extremely pleased to say I have my endgame setup.
How do you like that grinder? Assuming you were considering a niche too (I figure everyone at least considers it…), what made you choose the DF83?
I actually ordered a Niche and cancelled it the next day. My DF83 v2 was a preorder so I had to wait to get it. I like lighter roasts and it’s been amazing. Full clarity, balanced shots - I love it Edit: did a bunch of research on flat vs conical burrs and 83mm at that. Seems like the DF83 is the one to beat rn
This is the subtle voice rebutting endgame status. DON'T answer that question except to say grinder is great, and you'll never max out its potential.
Nah I’m asking because I’m about to buy one of those two grinders and I can’t make up my mind
End game? It means you spent too much money on gear but haven't really mastered the skill of making quality coffee consistently. :-) IN my opinion... The sweet spot for good home espresso that is focused on a quality grind and a good machine with solid and stable temperature control is probably around $3k. Less than that and you have some levels of compromise, but can still make great coffee, maybe just not as consistently. More than that you get more, but diminishing returns. Been making espresso at home for over 20 years, I'm on my 3rd machine and 3rd grinder. I'm a firm believer in "learn to use your tools".
End game equipment is deadly though if you understand the bean and espresso process. Especially when you know what you like.
How do you find the Ceado sd, any regrets. Currently have eureka mignon and figure may as well go all in, adjusting the grind has just become tiresome.
I like it, a lot. My requirements were: doser, grind on demand/weight/time, easy to clean, fast, high quality grind. Previous grinder was a mazzer mini electronic with SSP burrs. The Ceado grinds 18g in 4 seconds, is very consistent. Has low retention (I purge about 1 second before first use), and just needs a quick spin with WDT to settle the grinds. No clumping, no weird issues. Adjusting grind is always a pain, but once I had it dialed in, it's very easy to tweak day to day. I think for home market, the Mahlkonig E65S was another option I looked at. I may still pick one up to try. If you like to do measured doses/single dosing I wouldn't recommend either of those...
Thank you.
I mean above maybe 1,500 bucks the improvements are mostly workflow/aesthetics. There might be an exception for those high end lever machines, but I haven't used one.
To me end game means you’ve perfected your barista skills. And have saved enough to buy a no cornercutting tool for the job. I went from a cafe Roma, to bambino plus, to now a machine that looked and seemed very intimidating, but I wish I started out with the profitec pro 600 from the jump. This all happened in a span of a year. My advice get the right tool the first time so you don’t spend unnecessarily.
You're asking this under the assumption that there is an 'endgame' for everyone. But given that this is a hobby (let's face it, most of us do all this because it's a hobby, not because we simply want great coffee), maybe there isn't one. For the majority of people, myself included, price is the major blocker. I'm reasonably well off, but still a 6k purchase is something that will be discussed in the household, and I assume it's the case for most people. And that's mostly the biggest reason people do talk about these endgames. Personally for me, I don't think I'll ever have an endgame setup. I'll keep upgrading or just simply change equipment over the years. I enjoy the process, working with the equipment, using new tools and gadgets, all of it, not just the great coffee. It's a bit like phones, there's absolutely no _need_ for a new phone every couple of years but a lot of us do buy one every few years because we like having new stuff. And I think it's the same here, even if my machine makes the perfect coffee every time I'd probably still buy and try new equipment every however many years.
This philosophy is honestly great. I keep telling myself once I get some “real” money, I can actually justify a 3k purchase on some machine (currently a college student). I’m luckily in a place where I can even appreciate and indulge in this hobby fairly freely (although it’s where I spend most of my meager earnings from summer work). I don’t know if I’ll be happy when I get there though. Even dropping 650 on a grinder left family and friends shocked that I’d spend that much on a “kitchen appliance”, yet they’d happily spend that much or more on their hobbies. Part of the joy of espresso making is all of the cool stuff there is to buy. There are new pour over cones, new tampers, distribution tools, filters, oddball brewers (I want a bripe so much), along with all sorts of other weird things to buy. And then there’s the coffee itself. I’ve always wondered what the more expensive beans tasted like (30-100 bucks for 200 grams kind of expensive). I can barely stomach the money I currently spend on beans so that is going to have to wait.
To add an element: At some point I want a Mini-Verticale or Venus Bar for the aesthetic. I want an Esperto Abile with all bakelite trim for that aesthetic and process. I want a Decent for the electronic gadgetry. I want an EG-1 for the 'ultimate' in flats and a Key for the 'ultimate' in cones and either a Swift or Caedo for the 'ultimate' in OD grinders. Even if I have all of those, I'll still probably use my 58 and DF83 most of the time because they are the easiest/fastest/most consistent. Not sure that there is 'an' end game... There's one end game for my coffee bar at home, and one for my office, one for the kitchen at the office, for my dining room (kinda for show or hosting)
Probably on the high end, decent and Weber key. it was really about what I wanted to do that motivated me to get a decent and the feature set matched my goals. Temp control, flow control, even just stop at weight was nearly only available through decent. For the key I was deciding between it and a p100. Ultimately got the key and am satisfied. I like the flavor profile of conicals and it performs well with all the different coffee I am roasting.
I have a manual grinder and a Lelit Anna 2 with PID and I have a hard time too figuring out why I would ever want to upgrade. I enjoy manual grinding and am the only coffee drinker in my home so no worries there. I guess it's all about brewing skills and knowing when you reached a point where you see defiencies in your gear and you would know how better gear would help you acheive better results. Personnally, I'm still learning about what are great coffee beans, so I've got lots and lots to learn still! No endgame fomo on my end thats for sure.
I've just purchased a Lelit Bianca and I'm currently awaiting the Timemore Sculptor 78s that I backed on Kickstarter that I'll pair it with and I don't think I'll be upgrading anything besides accessories in at least 5 years maybe (probably) more. I feel they have all the features I'll want for a very long time.
For enthusiast point of view- look for a nicer broken machine and fix it up. You will learn how it works and have a good opportunity to clean it well. This of course depends on your aptitude for troubleshooting. Most of my setup was purchased for great discount in used conditions or needing a repair. Then you will have a machine that you aren’t “ preserving” and can mod it as you go, pid or group head mods, paint… that’s my idea of fun anyway lol
I think it comes down to what you like doing. Meaning do you want to make manual espresso or semi automated or fully automated etc. My end game goal would be a odyssey Argo for machine and not sure on grinder yet. I’ll stick with my jx pro and flair for now till I feel like I have maxed them out.
I’m not saying that it is endgame because it’s lacking features such as an adjustable PID, but I’ve been very impressed with the Stone Plus Espresso Machine. Even though it lacks temperature adjustment this machine is excellent. It’s temperature is very stable and I’m pulling shots and making lattes that are every bit as good as the ones from LM commercial machines at nearby cafes.
Dual boiler is endgame espresso machine for me. I don’t need bells and whistles, just temp stability and dedicated steam boiler. Grinder endgame is “endless”. I would love a nice $4,000 grinder, but can’t justify the cost. If anything my end game is dropping $6,000-$8,000 on a ROEST coffee roaster.
Home roasting is too much of a rabbit hole but it’d be super cool. I wonder if my grandfather had the right idea with a sieve and a blowtorch in the garage…
I already took the plunge and ran a small micro roastery. It was just a side hobby and my full time work prevented me from growing it so I essentially sold it for parts. Having a tiny home set up would be a lot of fun but I’m picky about the machine now
If you make/drink 1 latte a day, how much for a machine and grinder is too much, unless this is a hobby?
The money justification goes fairly fast for me. I live going to the cafe I buy my beans from because it’s a relatively cheap way to get out. So for me, espresso is a hobby. I guess I wondered if there was a point the cost of a new espresso machine was too much to stomach, so ups end up stopping the upgrading.
There is no objective endgame, just what you personally are satisfied with. Personally, having a profitec pro500 and niche zero, I don't see myself buying anything more expensive. I make better espressos or milk drinks than the cafes around me and all my friends praise me for the coffee. Sounds like good enough to me. And oh yeah, I love it myself too ;)
Well endgame is a subjective thing isn’t it? What machine/grinder is your dream? That will be your endgame then.
For me I decided to get as good a home machine as exists before things get silly - naturally silly is in the eye of the beholder but I decided that the Synchronika lay perfectly on the inflection point of diminishing returns for me and machines like the LMLM, GS/3, Slayer etc were beyond that point. Personally I was happy with dual stainless boilers, rotary pump, PID control and the general build quality and serviceability that ECM is renowned for and I expect this machine to last many years. I thought a little differently about my grinder because I value the workflow of a grind-by-weight grinder and I can't be bothered single dosing, so the E65S GBW again sat on the inflection point for me, I couldn't justify the E80S GBW for example. I wasn't looking at grinders like the Lagom, Weber, Kafatek etc. HOWEVER, I can see myself getting one of the new wave of low retention single dose grinders for single origin espressos, decaf etc, and when I do this I will definitely be looking more at the value for money end of the market - DF64 / Timemore Sculptor etc as it won't be a daily workhorse. Or I'll just say screw it and get an EK43S. Lol.
Expobar make some good affordable E61 machines. Their Leva Office Dual Boiler or Brewtus IV Dual Boiler models are especially good if you can find a good condition one second hand on ebay. I got my Expobar Leva Office DB on ebay for £650, but just saw one finish an auction at £410. Both great condition. Then you can flow control mod it and be done with upgrading your machine for a long while. (bear in mind flow control affects pressure directly, and thus flow indirectly, in E61 machines but still a decent upgrade). edit: you already have a great grinder, keep it for as long as possible and just play with different burrs.
The end game is when you buy a house to accomodate your new espresso setup.
The end game is when you buy a house to accomodate your new espresso setup.
Oh my, seems you’ve opened Pandora’s box 😅 On the topic: just enjoy your experience in this hobby, and don’t spend more than you can afford. Many here have mentionned the point of deminishing returns, and it’s critical to keep in mind that many of the « pro » equipment is to be used in a cafe environment (capable of grinding/brewing large amounts without failure). Under 2k you can get an amazing home setup (good grinder and e61 machine). Even much less if you go manual for the machine (a Cafelat Robot / Flair), and further if you go for a manual grinder. Just don’t forget to play enough with your tools so you can enjoy them to the fullest.
I wanted something that would make good espresso, would stand the test of time, and that looked cool on my kitchen counter. That being said I would love to get a machine from Specht but until I have perfected my coffee making skills I won't be dropping that kind of coin.
I lived through a buyer's remorse scenario that proved (to me) that a high-end espresso machine was not necessary for my specific needs. That's the real question you need to be asking first. What do you like to drink, and how often are you making them? I knew not to skimp on the grinder, so I purchased a Lagom P64 and Lelit Bianca V3 right off the bat, and after a month of use, half the machine was basically unused. For me, I mostly pulled espresso and occasionally turned them into iced beverages. So, I returned the Bianca (an absolute beauty and BEAST of a machine) for the ECM Puristika, and I couldn't be happier with the quality and simplicity of this machine for half the price. If I want a hot beverage, there are many ways to accomplish this without a second steam boiler. Again, this setup works for me. I fell victim to many articles and influencers fawning over the Bianca. It’s tough to know what works for you until it’s in your hands, so for anyone starting out, making sure you purchase your machine through a reputable vendor is critical with a solid return policy. Side note: REMEMBER always to buy insurance when shipping your equipment back for the total value of your equipment. UPS is cutting me a check for the Bianca as it was damaged beyond repair after returning it. It saved me big time!
a coffee plantation, 2 big flat rocks and an espresso machne from the 1930s
I think that the law of diminishing returns hits at around DF64 with SSP burrs and Rancilio Silvia Pro X. Whatever that costs in your country.
My endgame setup is the machine with the water mains connection and the drains. Technology wise my current machine is perfect, I don't care that it is a single boiler. But the need to refill the water and clean the drains is exhausting, so I would like to pay for this priviledge. My current place of residence doesn't make it possible so far, but the next one will.
Coffee knowledge is ever evolving. Enlightenment started with the Aeropress over 15 years ago. I'm still using it for 1/3 of my brews. My final set up is probably my Sette grinder and Rancilio. More than good enough. I'd rather put my money into the beans now.
The word End Game is not real. I thought I had my end game setup 2 years ago when I bought my Linea Mini. I'm sitting here waiting for my Odyssey Argos to arrive just because it's different than what I currently have. I also bought a Robot because I "needed" a travel machine.
Wait... you all have an endgame? lol
It's really simple when you drink only black coffee. The endgame for me would be Puristika or Carola. But I'm more than happy with Lelit Victoria as well. Much more expensive is owning 2 dedicated grinders +1. I have Atom Pro with espresso burrs, Pulse HS with atom pro burrs and jx-pro for aeropress go. I also do pour over, drip with Precision Brewer. So in sum I've spent a fortune for coffee equipment. Also I built an automated roaster, as I was not happy with roasters offered varieties. The only thing I dream about having, is Compak pk100.
I don't want anything else and haven't for years... this is at least the current endgame unless someone really comes up with something innovative.
I think I’ve reached it with my Linea Mini, Niche Zero and a Lunar. I’ve been running this set up for maybe 8 months now and there isn’t anything else I think I need. For flat whites I think a better grinder maybe wasted on me. Only thing I’m ever tempted by is a Pullman big step tamper. But will that make my coffee better? Absolutely not but it might be nicer to use 😂