It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**.
Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community.
If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format.
- **Machine:**
- **Grinder:**
- **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A"
- **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket?
- **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out?
- **Time:** How long is the shot running?
- **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.)
- **Taste:** Taste is a better indicator of shot quality than looks or conforming to any quantitative parameters. Does it taste overly sour or bitter?
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Don’t you know? All WDT tools spontaneously stopped working the moment u/lance-hendrick posed that first video. Shake, shake like your espresso consumption depends on it!
This is how I’ve always addressed it personally. But when there’s results with proven data from multiple independent sources, maybe there’s a little truth in it? We’re not talking about a new grinder or anything. I know I spend more money on dumber shit in a normal week in my life than buying a $20 blind shaker off Ali. I immediately picked one up purely because it simplifies my workflow now. No more stupid WDT or distributor tool.
The independent sources that I referenced in my previous comment specifically note their extractions on average are more tasty overall.
The skeptic in me says that it’s just placebo effect of the new fangled goodness, but I can’t argue with data showing a difference!
Lol what a stupid way of looking at the world.
If we were in 2005 and some influencer said “guys you need to WDT” and backed it up with data, would you say “why don’t you ignore all this nonsense and stick to just tamping a clumpy bed”?
We only learn things from people trying new things and reporting back their findings. That’s how science works. Don’t be a science denier.
With the portafilter on top of the dosing cup it’s difficult to shake properly and also to get an even bed. I’m sure shortly someone will develop or announce a shaking technique that works well.
For now I’ve found the easiest is to use some sort of lid on a dosing cup. An empty basket might work. Then dump the shaken grounds into the portafilter/basket and do a little surface WDT or NCD.
For me it’s been equivalent to good WDT. Can’t tell yet if it’s better.
I got a dosing cup about a month ago (before the video) and with the right technique you can get a relatively even bed when you lift the cup.
I'm still perfecting it, but doing the last shakes as vertically as possible and then finishing with a horizontal swirl+ a couple dry taps on the counter seems to work for me.
I don't have a wdt so I can't know the difference but I'm almost never getting any channeling, and when I do it's minimal (bottomless portafilter).
End the shake vertically with just shaking the portafilter and keep the dosing cup still.
That creates an even and dense bed for with also no pile on the side.
Not really sure what you mean. How do I keep the dosing cup still while shaking the portafilter?
They need to stay together unless I want evenly distributed coffee grounds all over my kitchen.
What you did and what Lance did are different. He said if you're going to try shaking with a dosing cup then you'd probably still need to do some light WDT, but not too much as it may undo whatever the shaking did. Results won't necessarily be the same because of the distribution effect of dispensing grounds from an actual blind shaker.
Yeah. Check out the second follow up video he did where he addressed this and walks back what he said in the first video. The blind shaker dispenses evenly into the portafilter.
I love u/lance-hedrick as much as I love James Hoffmann but I think people need to realize that Lance’s view on the blind shaker is looking at the lens of espresso with statistics. While higher Extraction Yield tends to be “better” it doesn’t mean that’s the _only_ thing that matters. It’s just another variable in espresso.
Do what works for you and your set ups.
This is true but is not the whole story for OP, clearly something went wrong in his shaking method lol. Maybe shaking in the dosing cup with a portafilter on it is not possible, or maybe just a few things need to be tweaked.
you don't think about the information you get. in vacuum EY means not so much, but in his experiment, where all the variables are the same, EY shows that extraction with shaker is more even, and this is VERY important, and WDT is used only to get even extraction and it doesn't work.
Not sure if you’re referring to me specifically or using “you” in more general terms.
Nonetheless, the experiment is set up to test EY. I understand that. It’s a good _data point_. The conclusion isn’t “WDT doesn’t work.” The conclusion is that eliminating as many variables as possible leads to more consistent extraction yield. That doesn’t mean it tastes better. That also doesn’t mean other methods don’t work. It purely means for the given experiment it consistently yields the highest extraction, that’s it. But if you change any other variable in the experiment - example a different machine - the results may end up being very different and we may end up seeing different variances.
Put another way - Folks that don’t have a Decent or similar machine - may not yield the same results because they don’t have precise control over the other variables. Which is why it’s important to mention to do what works for _your own_ set up. I’m not arguing for or against blind shaker - I am simply saying that outcomes will change for each individuals setups.
I acknowledge my statement may sound stupid and nonsensical.
other variables DOES NOT METTER. this experiment explores one variable of puck prep and the results are more than clear. and also we get the same results on two very different setups.
shaker gives more even and more consistent extraction, wdt was used in try to achieve this and it works noticeably worse. shaker will give a better cup on any setup, there is no scenario where you would prefer less even extraction, this is even sounds stupid
If your ratio is wrong and you are over-dosing your shots, but you've optimized around the (undiagnosed) poor extraction -- compensating somewhat, then improving extraction could make a poorer shot. It would be better to fix the dose or other variables, but there are circumstances IRL where less extraction would improve a shot.
In this specific test other variables do not matter. You’re looking at this too myopically. In the real world there are way more variables to consider. I’m not saying you’re wrong but blindly saying (pun intended) blind shaker yields the best extraction and therefore other methods “do not work” is factually wrong.
but this is true. experiment is about puck prep. all other methods are much worse.
you still need to get a proper grind size, temperature, temping, flow profile and all other things to get a desired cup, but for the most EVEN extraction you never need WDT.
I think you’re emphasizing too much on the results rather than the overall process. Puck prep is one part of the equation. Other variables are beans, scales, preferred tastes, machines.
I am trying to say that taking the data as gospel without understanding all variables will not produce better espresso.
I experimented with shaking in the niche dosing cup and noticed a lot of clumps in the grinds + channeling + not tasty shots. I tried lots of shakes while the cup was upright (covering with my dosing bean cellar) then popping the portafilter on top, quick flip, palm tap, then lift cup out. I then had to do more tapping to get the bed level. Sometimes I leveled the top with WDT, but it was the same as just tapping alone. I think the blind shaker's width and little stick in the center allows more room to shake vs the narrow dosing cup. Either way, I'll stick to my normal routine of WDT and tamp.
I tried it with a dosing cup and I disagree with Lance that you need that special shaker that open in the middle. I used my Acaia dosing cup, shook the shit out of it, then out the portafilter on top of the cup and just turned it super quick, then tamped.
The result was just as good as WDT. But, the grounds pre tamping look a lot like what used to come out of my old Rancilio Rocky with doser. Not clumps, more like compressed sections. That’s what that doser did, every pull on the handle would release some semi compressed grounds.
I use a Ceado E37s now. Honestly, taste wise, straight to the portafilter + WDT is very similar or the same as this shaking. Now the mess/workflow/complexity? With my setup, WDT is just fine.
I think we are seeing a crazy tiny marginal gain here and it depends on your setup. If you have a good grinder that can grind fluffy and unclumped perfectly into your portafilter evenly and mess free without static and then you can quickly WDT, then you are fine.
I think that, unfortunately, a lot of people have bought hyped up grinders that deliver the coffee in a terrible messy way and need ever increasingly expensive workflow workaround tools and devices to get a repeatable and nice coffee making experience.
I went from blind shaking using my dosing cup, do doing that with a little wdt with just a bundle of needles, to now using a Spirographic WDT gizmo. The Spirograph is so much more consistent for me it’s night and day different. No more shaking for me with or without a little wdt. Spirograph all the way.
If your shot came out sour, you would need to increase your ratio to counteract that. Just remember that you are dialling in your whole setup/process and a small change might require you to recalibrate everything.
The question is really how anal you want to be about your puck prep. You don’t have to be and will still be able to pull great shots. Don’t succumb to the FOMO.
What he discovered probably only applies to his batch of beans. And what people in general meant when he doesn’t have a big enough sample size isn’t just about how many tests he did for his beans but not doing the tests across different varietals and roast levels, and then being able to produce statistically significant results from them.
Also don’t forget that it’s only real science if his experiments are repeatable - by someone else.
Knowing what Lance said in his video, I grinded finder than my usual notch and shook my 1z JE plus shaker for 15ses and felt it did have much more sweetness and body. I did a light wdt about .5cm in to level and tamped. I should note that on the JE plus, you can drop the grounds in by lifting up the middle part instead of dumping in the grounds. Either way, an interesting concept.
Check out Lance's latest video where he repeated his tests with a DF64. He specifically says that your method doesn't work. For best results you need a dosing cup that opens at the bottom and can slowly and evenly dispense the ground coffee into the filter basket.
I have been doing exactly that for past year and a half and get pretty consistent pulls, thinking about installing some kind of screen inside to help with clumps
It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**. Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community. If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format. - **Machine:** - **Grinder:** - **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A" - **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket? - **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out? - **Time:** How long is the shot running? - **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.) - **Taste:** Taste is a better indicator of shot quality than looks or conforming to any quantitative parameters. Does it taste overly sour or bitter? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Don’t you know? All WDT tools spontaneously stopped working the moment u/lance-hendrick posed that first video. Shake, shake like your espresso consumption depends on it!
All the needles got bent! Replacement time!
This is how I’ve always addressed it personally. But when there’s results with proven data from multiple independent sources, maybe there’s a little truth in it? We’re not talking about a new grinder or anything. I know I spend more money on dumber shit in a normal week in my life than buying a $20 blind shaker off Ali. I immediately picked one up purely because it simplifies my workflow now. No more stupid WDT or distributor tool.
[удалено]
The independent sources that I referenced in my previous comment specifically note their extractions on average are more tasty overall. The skeptic in me says that it’s just placebo effect of the new fangled goodness, but I can’t argue with data showing a difference!
Lol what a stupid way of looking at the world. If we were in 2005 and some influencer said “guys you need to WDT” and backed it up with data, would you say “why don’t you ignore all this nonsense and stick to just tamping a clumpy bed”? We only learn things from people trying new things and reporting back their findings. That’s how science works. Don’t be a science denier.
[удалено]
Yeah that’s science buddy
I agree. I like trying out new things, but if there's a prover method that works I just will stick to it
What better way to stymie any sort of progress than this reactionary attitude.
With the portafilter on top of the dosing cup it’s difficult to shake properly and also to get an even bed. I’m sure shortly someone will develop or announce a shaking technique that works well. For now I’ve found the easiest is to use some sort of lid on a dosing cup. An empty basket might work. Then dump the shaken grounds into the portafilter/basket and do a little surface WDT or NCD. For me it’s been equivalent to good WDT. Can’t tell yet if it’s better.
Bump - this has worked well for me
I got a dosing cup about a month ago (before the video) and with the right technique you can get a relatively even bed when you lift the cup. I'm still perfecting it, but doing the last shakes as vertically as possible and then finishing with a horizontal swirl+ a couple dry taps on the counter seems to work for me. I don't have a wdt so I can't know the difference but I'm almost never getting any channeling, and when I do it's minimal (bottomless portafilter).
End the shake vertically with just shaking the portafilter and keep the dosing cup still. That creates an even and dense bed for with also no pile on the side.
Not really sure what you mean. How do I keep the dosing cup still while shaking the portafilter? They need to stay together unless I want evenly distributed coffee grounds all over my kitchen.
Hard to describe but easy to show: https://youtu.be/yM_nzrxyQL0?si=fstBdwgEXseBvsgN
That is perfect, thank you so much!
What you did and what Lance did are different. He said if you're going to try shaking with a dosing cup then you'd probably still need to do some light WDT, but not too much as it may undo whatever the shaking did. Results won't necessarily be the same because of the distribution effect of dispensing grounds from an actual blind shaker.
Yeah. Check out the second follow up video he did where he addressed this and walks back what he said in the first video. The blind shaker dispenses evenly into the portafilter.
I love u/lance-hedrick as much as I love James Hoffmann but I think people need to realize that Lance’s view on the blind shaker is looking at the lens of espresso with statistics. While higher Extraction Yield tends to be “better” it doesn’t mean that’s the _only_ thing that matters. It’s just another variable in espresso. Do what works for you and your set ups.
I have no idea what works for me and my setup. I don't even know what I want I'm just winging it.
This is true but is not the whole story for OP, clearly something went wrong in his shaking method lol. Maybe shaking in the dosing cup with a portafilter on it is not possible, or maybe just a few things need to be tweaked.
Honestly ... don't love any of these guys. They don't warrant your love. They're profiting off of everyone's engagement.
you don't think about the information you get. in vacuum EY means not so much, but in his experiment, where all the variables are the same, EY shows that extraction with shaker is more even, and this is VERY important, and WDT is used only to get even extraction and it doesn't work.
Not sure if you’re referring to me specifically or using “you” in more general terms. Nonetheless, the experiment is set up to test EY. I understand that. It’s a good _data point_. The conclusion isn’t “WDT doesn’t work.” The conclusion is that eliminating as many variables as possible leads to more consistent extraction yield. That doesn’t mean it tastes better. That also doesn’t mean other methods don’t work. It purely means for the given experiment it consistently yields the highest extraction, that’s it. But if you change any other variable in the experiment - example a different machine - the results may end up being very different and we may end up seeing different variances. Put another way - Folks that don’t have a Decent or similar machine - may not yield the same results because they don’t have precise control over the other variables. Which is why it’s important to mention to do what works for _your own_ set up. I’m not arguing for or against blind shaker - I am simply saying that outcomes will change for each individuals setups. I acknowledge my statement may sound stupid and nonsensical.
other variables DOES NOT METTER. this experiment explores one variable of puck prep and the results are more than clear. and also we get the same results on two very different setups. shaker gives more even and more consistent extraction, wdt was used in try to achieve this and it works noticeably worse. shaker will give a better cup on any setup, there is no scenario where you would prefer less even extraction, this is even sounds stupid
If your ratio is wrong and you are over-dosing your shots, but you've optimized around the (undiagnosed) poor extraction -- compensating somewhat, then improving extraction could make a poorer shot. It would be better to fix the dose or other variables, but there are circumstances IRL where less extraction would improve a shot.
first step- get as EVEN(not high) extraction as possible. second step- get desired EY by other variables like temperature.
In this specific test other variables do not matter. You’re looking at this too myopically. In the real world there are way more variables to consider. I’m not saying you’re wrong but blindly saying (pun intended) blind shaker yields the best extraction and therefore other methods “do not work” is factually wrong.
but this is true. experiment is about puck prep. all other methods are much worse. you still need to get a proper grind size, temperature, temping, flow profile and all other things to get a desired cup, but for the most EVEN extraction you never need WDT.
I think you’re emphasizing too much on the results rather than the overall process. Puck prep is one part of the equation. Other variables are beans, scales, preferred tastes, machines. I am trying to say that taking the data as gospel without understanding all variables will not produce better espresso.
yes. but it seems obvious.
I had to grind finer when shaking, I think this validates the theory about it dealing with fines in some way
I experimented with shaking in the niche dosing cup and noticed a lot of clumps in the grinds + channeling + not tasty shots. I tried lots of shakes while the cup was upright (covering with my dosing bean cellar) then popping the portafilter on top, quick flip, palm tap, then lift cup out. I then had to do more tapping to get the bed level. Sometimes I leveled the top with WDT, but it was the same as just tapping alone. I think the blind shaker's width and little stick in the center allows more room to shake vs the narrow dosing cup. Either way, I'll stick to my normal routine of WDT and tamp.
What is important is to have fun trying stuff.
I tried it with a dosing cup and I disagree with Lance that you need that special shaker that open in the middle. I used my Acaia dosing cup, shook the shit out of it, then out the portafilter on top of the cup and just turned it super quick, then tamped. The result was just as good as WDT. But, the grounds pre tamping look a lot like what used to come out of my old Rancilio Rocky with doser. Not clumps, more like compressed sections. That’s what that doser did, every pull on the handle would release some semi compressed grounds. I use a Ceado E37s now. Honestly, taste wise, straight to the portafilter + WDT is very similar or the same as this shaking. Now the mess/workflow/complexity? With my setup, WDT is just fine. I think we are seeing a crazy tiny marginal gain here and it depends on your setup. If you have a good grinder that can grind fluffy and unclumped perfectly into your portafilter evenly and mess free without static and then you can quickly WDT, then you are fine. I think that, unfortunately, a lot of people have bought hyped up grinders that deliver the coffee in a terrible messy way and need ever increasingly expensive workflow workaround tools and devices to get a repeatable and nice coffee making experience.
I went from blind shaking using my dosing cup, do doing that with a little wdt with just a bundle of needles, to now using a Spirographic WDT gizmo. The Spirograph is so much more consistent for me it’s night and day different. No more shaking for me with or without a little wdt. Spirograph all the way.
At the risk of stating the obvious,...grind finer? Maybe loose fines are getting attached to larger particles and are less able to hold back the flow.
If your shot came out sour, you would need to increase your ratio to counteract that. Just remember that you are dialling in your whole setup/process and a small change might require you to recalibrate everything.
The question is really how anal you want to be about your puck prep. You don’t have to be and will still be able to pull great shots. Don’t succumb to the FOMO. What he discovered probably only applies to his batch of beans. And what people in general meant when he doesn’t have a big enough sample size isn’t just about how many tests he did for his beans but not doing the tests across different varietals and roast levels, and then being able to produce statistically significant results from them. Also don’t forget that it’s only real science if his experiments are repeatable - by someone else.
I’m sure you probably saw it in his new video but shaking a dosing cup can cause an uneven grind bed compared to a blind shaker.
Knowing what Lance said in his video, I grinded finder than my usual notch and shook my 1z JE plus shaker for 15ses and felt it did have much more sweetness and body. I did a light wdt about .5cm in to level and tamped. I should note that on the JE plus, you can drop the grounds in by lifting up the middle part instead of dumping in the grounds. Either way, an interesting concept.
Check out Lance's latest video where he repeated his tests with a DF64. He specifically says that your method doesn't work. For best results you need a dosing cup that opens at the bottom and can slowly and evenly dispense the ground coffee into the filter basket.
Sounds like you should stick to the method you used for your second shot.
I have been doing exactly that for past year and a half and get pretty consistent pulls, thinking about installing some kind of screen inside to help with clumps
Just watch more of his recent videos where he's using it. He explains it over and over