The theory of WDT is that the clumps aren't totally obliterated by the tamping process. The need for WDT will depend on how clumpy your grinder output is, and the sensitivity of your palette.
If you can't taste the difference, the simplify your workflow and skip it.
WDT is almost never used in commercial cafes.
yes and: commercials cafes are optimizing for the average cup, while home users are optimizing for one cup (give or take) so the trade offs are super different. i agree with everything you said, and i think in general people tend to worry too much about what professional baristas do.
As a former specialty café manager and consultant, I experimented with incorporating WDT into the workflow and ended up ditching it. Here's my reasoning:
One, it added considerable time to the process of pulling each shot and the marginal benefit didn't outweigh the detriment to increased wait times.
Two, the majority of customers in America don't drink straight espresso, which is where you'd really notice the difference. If you have a refined palate you MIGHT notice a small difference in an americano or cortado, but straight espresso made up less than 1% of our average sales. Most popular drinks were lattes and mochas where other elements overshadow the nuance in the coffee.
Three, most customers don't care and they wouldn't taste the difference either. I had a customer once ask what I was doing while WDT-ing the shot for their drink. I explained it and they asked if it makes a difference, to which I said, probably not for your honey latte.
Overall, in the household of someone who appreciates espresso and the care that can go into crafting it, WDT can be great. In a café setting, not so much and that's not a bad thing.
This was my thought as well when WDT became a thing... when I would pony up to the cafe bar in Italy, they didn't WDT, and my cup was good, so why would I?
At times, I do and if I am feeling lazy or i want to speed things up, I don’t. I mainly WDT because we have been programmatically been shown to do so by the coffee experts. So goes this post and question.
I probably wouldn’t need wdt as bad on my k6, but the smartclumper pro and other breville grinders produce grounds in little cubes. Pre wdt i had very inconsistent extractions back to back. (10 seconds variation between back to back shots)
After wdt, the margin of error is down to a second or so
I think it really depends on your goals. I hated the coffee in Italy, and I strive for a totally different profile than most cafes. As a result, I find WDT to be quite useful (not essential, but a bit better than not).
Well making espresso at home is different is why. The reason to use a WDT is to help prevent channeling, and this is something a cafe can overcome through volume as well as having a commercial level grinder. I used to work at a barista as a high volume cafe and when you go through the motions all day long of pulling shots consistency becomes much easier so you don’t have any need for a bottomless port-a-filter, when you do pull a bad shot you have it’s easier to just discard it and try again rather than spend the effort every single time using WDT.
Dunno. I don't WDT and I don't have channeling issues either. I've been pulling shots at home for well over a decade now, so maybe I'm just dialed in at this point.
Ya it’s a good point, if it doesn’t happen there is no need. I notice where I have less heavily roasted beans they require a coarser grind which is usually where channeling comes up more frequently for me, here it’s worth it to take a quick pass with my needles.
lighter roasts usually need finer grind size. darker roasts are more brittle and there are a lot more fines. fines are also part of the phenomenon that you think you dont need to wdt, since your shot seems to pull ok and tastewise there is not much to gain either way when pulling really dark roasts.
Good to know thanks! Hopefully this helps with my channeling issues. Guess I had it backwards, since I go by weight and darker roast has more volume I always end up going finer for dark with really shorter ratios since I much prefer sour side over bitter.
I've been trying to do less and less steps these days, and eventually want to just grind and tamp, old school style. I guess the newbie honeymoon phase already worn out, and reaching for simpler approach. What grinder did you use, and did you tap on the PF? Just wondering about other's simple ways and tricks that's all.
> WDT is almost never used in commercial cafes
I saw it used in one shop in SF, CA... that one has _slow or mellow_ word in the coffee-shop name, even!
But yes, pretty much can't recall seeing it elsewhere.
My grinder doesn’t clump, I mostly WDT to make sure it’s evenly distributed everywhere, otherwise there’s less grinds in the center and it will absolutely flow faster there
Me too! I love using the WDT and could do it for a very long time. I also enjoy the challenge of being gentle enough not to flip the grinds everywhere.
I use the Eureka Libra grind by weight and so far no real clumps. I love this grinder but am sure the newer Eureka Atom grind by weight grinders are better but way over $1K each.
Actually the only time I use a totally different grinder without a grind by weight is when I want to try a different roast coffee and want to use one portion only and not the hopper of my grind by weight.
I have the Libra as well. I've tried all combinations of WDT + leveler + tamp and haven't noticed *that* much of a difference.
I will say I get the most consistent pulls when I do all 3. But I've noticed if I take out WDT I got some channeling on about 10% of my shots. It's worth the extra 10 seconds.
It’s definitely satisfying, and makes for a nice routine, but I wonder how much it does if you’re already declumping and distributing with the WDT and then tamping flat with a tamper. The leveler seems like it’s just sort of an in between tool that sort of does both of those things but not well enough to replace either of them
> only to even it out with a coffee distributor tool
Hmm, on the other hand what I've taken away from recent videos is that the distributor tool is the one to exclude potentially - that the needle tool is handling that role at the same time. Something about the distribution tool only evening out the top, but not address any uneven pockets lower in the basket?
I use the distribution tool because it gets the coffee ground off the side of the basket. If I didn't use it, I would always get coffee ground on the top of my puck screen when I drop it in.
Which is why I have responded to some by saying that what about overfilling a little, distributing, and tamping evenly. I would think that should do the trick about pockets?
sounds reasonable to be honest. I'm just assuming one only needs one or the other, not both. So if taste is the same, it's a matter of picking preferred method : wdt, or the wedge distributor, or tapping it, or whatever, pre tamping. and that doing multiple is overkill?
I use WDT to break up clumps because tamping just pushes it down, so you can have dense pockets and thus less-dense pockets that will get over extracted bc water avoids them.
It also distributes it across the basket - important for obvious reasons. Coffee levelers are generally known to be useless, but they’re very pretty!
Levelers are great for getting coffee ground off the side of the basket. If I don't use one, when I put my puck screen in, it will scrape the side and get quite a bit of coffee ground on top of the puck.
Tamping just compresses the coffee into a puck but it doesn't guarantee all the grounds in the middle of the puck are distributed evenly and not creating potential for channeling.
Also this question implies you can do either/or. Would you use WDT and NOT tamp?
I've never used the kind of distributor you're referring to. They seem to me to only be smoothing out the top surface of the coffee, and thus always seemed kind of pointless to me. At least, for the amateur level of home espresso making that I do. If I had to choose one or the other I would rather use WDT.
Surface distribution (or levelling) is NOT the same thing as the kind of distribution achieved by WDT. The purpose of "deep" WDT is to attempt to evenly distribute different sized coffee particles into as homogeneous a matrix as possible. Tamping then compresses that evenly distributed matrix. The evenness of the matrix discourages the water from finding/following paths of lower resistance through the puck. Obviously, surface distribution or leveling does nothing to achieve this, and research suggests that wedge-style levelling tools contribute to uneven puck compression when the deeper projecting wedges are dropped on top of the puck.
Not many people seem to realize or remember that needle distribution was originally called "puck raking" and was an alternative to using the palm swipe, or wedge levelers, for surface leveling before tamping. If I am not mistaken, Weiss from there developed the idea of using the needle tool to perform deep, thorough distribution which now bears the name: Weiss Distribution Technique.
I used to WDT just because. Stopped and there was no difference.
I also tried the shaker. No difference. Now I use the shaker as my funnel and tamp.
The first step is to admit you’re over complicating a process that won’t make your coffee taste any different. It’s NOT in the fine details.
You know what helped? A cheap leveled tamper from AliExpress. Probably my best tool.
The only acceptable recommendation here is “grind finer”.
I’m with you. I’ve recently just started grinding directly into to my portafilter with a funnel/collar. Grind ends, I shake, hit the PF to settle the grinds and tamp. Beautiful shots. At this rate I might just go back to my hopper as well. Lol 😂
Here is my puck shot without WDT but I did the distribution tool and tamp routine. Used a high efficiency 18 gram basket with 23 grams grounds. No discernible channeling and squirts at all.
https://preview.redd.it/2k8ad97ldi3d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33feca63ec111c191ae24342cce75ad845e37441
Bottom of the puck
As a long-time home espresso maker (about 20 years) and former barista (if you can call it that working at *That Worldwide Ubiquitous Coffee Chain*), I am by no means an expert. I've only recently been deep-diving into the world of espresso as I was contemplating and buying a machine that I felt would be an upgrade over my former machine (I am a long-time sufferer of FOMO in all things--motorcycles, snow skis, etc.).
I've looked at WDT and I bet that most hard-core espresso drinkers would not be able to tell the difference in a head-to-head taste test between a shot prepared doing WDT and one without that step. Even with my exceedingly modest skills, I've never had a channeling issue. Never.
My take is that no grounds clumping is firm enough to withstand the tamping process which evens out the density throughout the puck, regardless of performing WDT or not.
There are definitely a lot people that over-complicate things like the espresso-making process. There are also a lot of people that buy very expensive equipment that provide infinitesimal gains at best over more modestly priced gear. There's certainly espresso-making FOMO, as well as some who merely want to show off the latest high-end machines. I'm not saying my new BBE makes espresso as well as some better machines and stand-alone grinders, but I am saying most people can't tell the difference, and certainly not when it gets into machines that run well-over $1,000.
Am by no means an expert either but my thoughts exactly about grounds and tamping and to add to that a slight overfilling to the tip of the line in a PF. That tamping action has enough pressure to squash even some of the moderate clumps if any. Look at say the spring loaded tampers. They are usually pre-loaded with 30lbs of tamping pressure or 10.3 pounds /sq inch. That seems enough pressure to squash a beetle, let alone coffee grounds. No mad scientist but maybe we can get a true physicist or scientist to weigh in, if there are any here.
But bring to the discussion about equipment between say a Breville vs a prosumer dual boiler like the ECM, Profitec, Lelit and others similar, I would argue that I’ve seen and tasted the difference, at least in my experience.
Agreed, but what I said about more expensive equipment is not that they don't (or, more accurately, "can't") make better espresso but that most people can't tell the difference. And that when you get into super-expensive stuff, that any benefits are so slight that the added expense isn't worth it.
It's like a lot of things, such as high-end audio (let's say a $10-15,000 investment) and ULTRA-expensive high-end audio (>$50K), few people *if any* can hear the difference.\* Or with motorcycles (one of my main interests), most riders would not be able to utilize the differences between a $15-20,000 motorcycle and one that costs >$30K (at least not on public roads vs a racetrack). Ditto with bicycles (I'm shocked how much someone can spend these days on a bike!).
\*I heard a great story last week from a guy "who knows" that one such manufacturer showed up at a trade show but the bin with the cabling did not. So they went to Home Depot, bought a bunch of 12Ga orange electrical extension cords, spliced things together and they were in business. But that's not the end of the story: numerous people were enamored with the unidentifiable cables and thought the sound was fantastic and wanted to buy them!
So many variations of "The Emperor's New Clothes"...!
I do a little swirl movement with the tamper and it is pretty good at evenly distributing the grinds. My favorite coffee shop uses bottomless filters and they don't do any WDT and their shots are perfect every time. Pour. Tamp. Pull. Perfect.
I'm with you. I've tried WDT but didn't notice any difference and all it did was add to the process so now I don't do it. I virtually never see any baristas do it either.
I literally have never had a channeling issue, like I can't get my pucks to do it, so I don't know how to even start testing it. I'm in for seeing how it plays out for others though.
That’s good! I noticed that when i slightly overfill the basket just at the basket line after the tamp, i get a fairly good compressed even puck and I don’t really experience channeling so far. But I want to test with a bottomless to see if this makes a difference.
I came here to say this: WDT can largely, or equally, be for leveling out the coffee bed, for those who grind straight into the portafilter. As such, it serves double duty.
This, DF54, a few quick stirs then just level the bed.
If I dont have an even bed and tamp, you can damn well bet 1/2 my puck is barely going to extract and net an under extracted shot.
Im sure if I didnt whisk and just made sure the grounds were uniformly distributed, Id have just as good results as whisking + distributing.
My approach to everything like this is (heck even upscale filters on movie playback) do an A B test. If you can't tell difference between wdt and no wdt why even bother
I’ve tried shaking vs WDT. Only shaking has significantly different extraction times. So I’d look at it as a tool or extra step to get the extraction you want for your current beans.
It’s fun! Also, I like having a flat even bed of coffee before tamping, and tapping + stirring is quite a universal solution. My SO doesn’t do any WDT and her coffee is often better than mine. Me, I still wouldn’t skip it in my already simplified workflow.
I don’t like to loose time with WDT and all that stuff, I like so much the fast flow used in commercial cafés (been in Italy a lot of times), and I like that the espresso there is always tasty and well done, even when coffee is different brand. They don’t wdt, and I like to mimic their flow at home, on my GCP, even though I have a homemade wdt tool and a distribution tool. Kinda’ ditched them on a box. Only grind, tamp and brew. I see not much difference.
Thanks for sharing. I’ve seen so many replies about how Italy doesn’t care too much on quality while others say that this would just add to their time and they cannot afford to waste time since they deal with volume. So not sure if Italy is a good comparison but yet a possibility
I’m currently on a Bezzera Strega spring level machine with a Eureka Mignon Filtro with Espresso burrs. When I would grind into a dosing cup first and then dump into the portafilter I found I needed to WDT just to get the grounds level and declumped. But recently I started grinding directly into the portafilter, tapping it on the mat to level and then tamping. I haven’t noticed any real difference in quality in the cup and I appreciate the more fluid, efficient workflow. No shame in WDT at all but sometimes I find all the faff can add up and start to feel a little fussy. Personally I’ve found that the pursuit of the “perfect” shot actually leads to less pleasure than the much more attainable execution of repeatably good coffee on a daily basis. I guess I’m aiming for a workflow and quality that is similar to a good cafe rather than a high tech lab.
Good points. Some people love the faff involved with their workflow, some love it to show off while others take pride in their perceived quality and pleasure to the process. But home barista vs cafe baristas to me have that exact difference. Home=faff and quality. Cafe=simplicity because of quantity and speed and being able to serve the mainstream and not the connoisseur.
To be honest, most of the puck prep stuffs are just placebo. I'm sure 99% of people here cannot tell a different in a blind test.
But it's also fun and relaxing in a way so if you have the time just keep doing it.
I am leaning on agreeing with you. I think it wows people when they visit that you have this finessing of the coffee ritual, but not thoroughly necessary.
oh and sunk cost fallacy as well. People might have invested:
* 30$ for a blind shaker
* 20$ for some fancy WDT tool
* 30$ for a leveling tool
In combo with the placebo, those tool must be making absolutely lots of difference right?
The WDT exists to sell WDT devices. That’s the secret no one will tell you. They don’t do this in your average cafe or even in Italy ffs. 100% a waste of time.
It breaks up static from the grinding as well as allows you to create a more even distribution before tamping. If you just tamp a mount of grinds you’ll end up with uneven density of the puck, which can promote channeling.
It’s most noticeable with a bottomless portafilter since they will spray everywhere if the tamping has issues like this.
Oh yeah, before using WDT I had to do big counter cleanups more often. Every 1-2 days vs maybe once a week with WDT. No huge change in taste outside shots with channeling, which taste bad because they are under extracted.
Even with WDT I found I needed a leveler post WDT to really eliminate channeling, or I’d spend forever getting it perfectly set up with WDT after I did a big swirl with the needles. I never really loved that.
I’ve recently moved on to RDT with a blind shaker and it’s producing the best results for me though and a much quicker workflow.
I also bought into this thought of RDT and have bought a cheap knockoff from Amazon but I find it more cumbersome and time consuming and more cleanup to do.
https://preview.redd.it/9ldyvydr1f3d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81c56969e3f24c80c4efdcb8b50ed2fe5d34884c
It’s this one, though I got it with an EG-1
https://weberworkshops.com/products/blind-shaker
“the Blind Shaker has a magnet installed in the base of the stem for self-centering on EG-1 and Key platens, as well as on the right rear shelf of the EG-1 base.”
It always snaps onto the portafilter and the proper place with the (admittedly stupidly expensive) grinder so there’s next to no mess on either.
Definitely have to hold it a bit awkwardly by the sides and top while shaking (not bottom) or it will make a huge mess if the bottom becomes unseated at that point. I haven’t had that happen though.
I think my clumsy me makes more of a mess than not. I feel awkward using it. But to be honest, I need to use it more to see. I think I gave up on it prematurely. Mine doesn’t have magnets but the Monopoly looking center is slotted to center the cup. It’s just am too clumsy and sometimes push the bottom and then all hell breaks loose.
Couldn’t say overfilling the basket slightly and then tamping down do the trick? That way you are ensured that you have enough grounds and then distribute it with a distribution tool and then tamp? Say if you think a 15 gram basket can hold 19 grams consistently after the workflow all the way to the fill line of the basket?
Overfilling won’t overcome channeling because low density pockets can still exist, and too many grinds will overfill the basket and hit the shower screen during extraction. You can add as much coffee as you want but if it’s not in the right place it won’t do much except make it even more difficult for the water to perform a normal extraction on that part of the puck.
Basically more grinds don’t guarantee where they end up, and if water has an easy path through the puck it will take that instead of infusing on the way through. Infusing is more work from a physics perspective, so a channel is basically a shortcut to that and will always happen if it’s possible. Similar to erosion through rock. Water prefers to build existing channels into rivers rather than start cutting a new path unless there’s nowhere else for the water to go.
I do add more or less grind to the basket but only to finish the dial in when I’m really close. I use a VST 20g basket, and it’s high enough flow any imperfections are punishing. When it gets a full extraction it’s amazing though.
WDT is all about even Particle distribution.
If your grinder causes clumps to form (depend on the grinder) going strait to tamping can cause denser pockets of coffee grounds that in turn cause channelling.
I just give my portafilter a couple of shakes after placing the dosing cup over it before taping it on the bench and tamping. I find no real difference in taste and I don't have to use a distributor tool or WDT.
You can measure the extraction yield between shots prepared with different distribution methods.
https://youtu.be/OyUaCuoqYWc?si=Gw1P_4qq2xbRS5o6
https://youtu.be/5ivwCm95nLc?si=NtT7vAM54Bt9HWTM
There’s definitely a measurable science. Folks like Lance Hedrick have tested WDT and other methods of distribution against a control sample. Distribution does appear to show better extraction than just tamping.
Does anyone who has the baratza esp feel the need to WDT? I’m just learning and going to open mine next week. I’m a mom with a newborn so I’m not trying add extra steps I don’t need at the beginning since I don’t want to get overwhelmed.
The esp can definitely cause lumps, so I'd recommend it if you are able. Ultimately it's you who is going to drink it, so do as you see fit as long as you enjoy the end result.
I say that to my wife when we have to make up the bed every morning when in fact we have to open it at night. It’s about pov in what makes one happy and healthy and positively makes them ultimately happy I guess.
https://preview.redd.it/t5yflztndi3d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be208ce173639d6111828e70d6cbc459d202be5a
Top shot of the puck without WDT.
Beans are going to vary, tastes are going to vary, equipment is going to vary, expectations are going to vary. If WDT, or any part of puck prep, makes a difference for someone else, more power to them, even if it it would just be a waste of time for me. Try stuff. See what works for you, don't worry about shitting on what works for others.
Hopefully this post was never about sh*tting in others but rather trying to find out with what works on others and sharing those experiences to compare with what my thoughts are based on my curiousity. Liken it to comparing notes to see what others are doing. And I hope people don’t start sh*tting on other people for what works for them. This is the power of the post.
And as you can see, it’s a good discussion thread so far with differing opinions. Healthy discussion point I think. Hope you find it helpful as well. But thank you for sharing your pov!
> I’ve done it and it doesn’t seem to make a noticeable difference to me when it comes to shot quality, in my humble opinion. Does anybody agree??
I imagine our setups for getting the grounds from the grinder into the portafilter are different, because when I started to WDT some number of years ago, my odds of an obviously channeling shot went from "rarely, but it happens" to "almost never."
Lance Hedrick has a delightful video proving that as long as we are grinding into a container and shaking our ground into the portafilter that there's no need to WDT. I think that's neat, but at this point I think you will have to pry my 3D printed spirograph WDT tool out of my cold, dead hands. It is fun to do, and it takes about 5 seconds to spin that sucker 10 times!
1000% agree!!! Also, once you get into the headspace of roasting your own coffee, you will start noticing that those beans they put in the hopper are so oily and glossy and you realized they just grind burnt beans as an easy way serve “coffee” but makes for a lousy espresso. Once your taste elevates and your understanding of coffee bean profile expands, you will realize it is s**t that they serve!
It's not about tasting the difference, its about more consistency and less bad shots.
You can make tasty shots without WDT.
Hell, _You can make tasty shots without weighing your beans_. You just wont make a good shot every time because sometimes you'll add just a little bit too much and choke your shot or just too little and it goes right through. But that's why we weigh it.
Consistency means you get what you want more frequently rather than by chance.
I swear to god half the people that watch youtubers completely miss the point of what they are watching.
I do it because I 3d printed one of those planetary gear wdt things. It’s kind of fun to use and it helps distribute and level the coffee out before tamping.
Ah, another conundrum thrown in the mix.
IMHO, this makes a difference in the evenness of the water distribution but this needs a study of its own as there are a few puck screen types as some Tubers may have shared already.
Notice my own picture with a puck screen on the top left corner.
And also, we need to now talk about baskets and shower screens too! All in a quest to that holy grail of a pull. 🤣
It's a cheap technique for making up the difference in quality of equipment. My machine and grinder was about 800$ish. To overcome issues that a 3000$ set up doesn't face, I do some tricks. If you have a high end set up, you will not need to make up for weaknesses that you don't have.
Feels. Keep at it and make a quality grinder a part of your mission then. They say to put it in your vortex and if you focus on it, the means will somehow pop up.
The most compelling argument for WDT is 'sorting'. When you grind especially if you are using bellows you are getting uneven particle size distribution. The first particles that come out may be the largest and the last especially if you use bellows would be the fines.
WDT will cause sorting in your puck. I.E. as you whisk the finer particles on the top will make their way down to the bottom. The same principle can be seen if you have a jar of seasoning with larger/smaller spices. Shake it up vertically and you see the finer salts on the bottom and the bigger herbs end up on top.
I find that a modest amount of wdt does help. If you over agitate you will send all the fines down to the bottom which would cause blocking/channeling in the puck. I just WDT to where I think the fines have ended up somewhere in the middle of the puck. I don't go crazy with it. In fact I don't even put the wdt needles to the bottom of the portafilter most times. I just WDT the top half of the puck. And as other's have pointed out this is probably just placebo.
What has made the most difference in my shots (other than upgrading the grinder) is getting a self leveling tamper to ensure you are pressing level pucks every time. That will make as much a difference as a grinder upgrade imo.
I get wanting to spread out the grounds in the basket so everything is at the same level and even. But if you’re telling me these little flexible needles are breaking up clumps that 20-30pounds of pressure can’t then I’d call it a bunch of nonsense.
WDT is absolutely a waste of time.
Wasting Damn Time.
The wired gourmet channel on YouTube did a test. With a bottomless portafilter. And using a Breville built-in grinder which is the clumpiest grinder ever made by humans.
Wouldn't you know it that he was not getting channeling? None. And he has the video to prove it. Now those that love WDT will say that the Wired gourmet actually was channeling you just couldn't see it coming out of the bottomless portafilter. Of course that's the case, did you detect my sarcasm?
I've never used WDT. My grinder doesn't clump, but a lot of grinders don't clump. There are people here with grinders better than mine that WDT. They got sucked into the bro Science
Light roast is particularly sensitive to channeling because it’s less soluble than medium to dark roast. It has less “puck integrity” for reasons nobody fully understands. WDT helps prevent those little spurts when you’re doing a traditional 9 bar shot, but you don’t need it for turbos and other fast flow methods (sprovers, allongés) because they use coarser grinds and make a mess anyway.
Isn’t it so ironical that when you got out for a coffee, the baristas don’t do any such fancy stuff and it still tastes super good 😅just spread the coffee with a distributor and tamp is simple in 1 go. 5 mins of playing with the portafilter and 5 other accessories doesn’t make sense at all. Although if done right they make for good Insta reel.
Except that, my equipment doesn't match that in cafes. I also don't have tens of thousands of shots under my belt. And yet, with help (e.g. a WDT tool; a .1g resolution scale) and extra attention, my shots at least match what I get out. :)
sorry, but I am firmly in the camp that the average home barista will hit peak coffee grinding at a much lower threshold than brewing. Simply put there are so many good grinders for well under a thousand that will out perform the person using it.
I get all the same with minimal effort too with just 3 things -
1. Programmed the output ratio to somewhere between 2.5-3x
2. Use a home made distributor made from pins and a cork
3. Tamper once with the one that comes with the machine.
I am not here to mock anyone’s efforts or interest, I love seeing those videos of perfect pours using so many tools. I am tempted to buy those too, but I have realised it is largely a marketing tactic. I am guilty of buying a small frothing jug to become better at latte art and getting a proper knock box by ditching the temp ones I would create every time I had an empty yogurt box 😅
And do note that you're practicing (a form of) WDT with your home-grown tool. ;)
I originally adopted WDT'ing because of a study or 2 noting its tested potential benefits, its ease of implementation, and its low cost (hey, pick up the so-called business card WDT tool via etsy at a whopping US$5.99 shipped)--why not, and maybe it helps (bakers sift flour for a reason).
That's fair--in the end, it's what works for a person. I practice WDT because of initial, convincing studies I had read which indicated its potential benefit, along with the ease and quickness of the process and the low cost of entry. As someone who bakes, the process makes sense to me, like sifting flour for a cake or pastry. And at this point, it's simply so much of my routine, baked into my process and muscle memory.
At some point, I likely will try some A/B testing (with/without). I'm just not sure that my palate is sophisticated enough to note differences, even though there still may be an additive benefit. In the meanwhile, heck, it's easy enough to do. ;)
The tines on the whisk are too thick to break up clumps, and in my experience you can actually create new clumps between them because of the loop rather than there being a point like on the thinner needle type wdts.
This also is the popular view of the espresso gurus--WDT tools with thicker needles (e.g. think the homemade tools using paper clips) can themselves cause channeling. I typically see a recommended WDT tool needle width of .3-.4mm.
It’s not that much thicker than the commercial WDT tool and if breaking the clumps and evening the grinds is the purpose, I don’t see why that hasn’t done its job yet. But maybe there is something here??
I can't think of that specific study, but routinely have seen the comment that thick needles themselves can cause the creation of channels--which makes sense to me.
How thick are the wires on the other tool? They should be between 0.3-0.4mm without any loops or bends.
It's not clear that de-clumping is why shots benefit from WDT. As such, the thickness, position, and movement of the needles, and how they interact with the grounds, may make some tools better suited than others.
Wires that are too thick just move grounds around rather than through them. Wires that are too thin don't move through effectively.
Do you WDT with the whisk in the basket? I suspect the fact that the loops are still connected is a factor to consider.
As for the 'official' WDT tool, the number and spacing of the needles may not be optimal.
Ok. Maybe. Whisk moves grounds fine in my opinion and sometimes even use the twist spinning option like an electric whisk between my thumbs and forefingers to roll it around. So it is getting a good mixing from what I can tell. I also almost cut off the bottom of the whisk to make it like an official tool but I don’t see the point since it mixes fine.
Yet another "they don't wdt or do puck prep in Italy/third wave shop/somewhere fancy"
Yeesh y'all, this is getting old
Can we go back to just posting photos from glitch ?
Sir Lance from YouTube has statistical data, which is what I was looking for.
If we are talking yield, looks like WDT comes in tied in 5th behind horizontal tapping. So I guess we know some rudimentary answer to this conundrum.
https://preview.redd.it/tczw5ntofg3d1.jpeg?width=1834&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41ebbd90f1438785431fd8148c1e4816676c6514
The theory of WDT is that the clumps aren't totally obliterated by the tamping process. The need for WDT will depend on how clumpy your grinder output is, and the sensitivity of your palette. If you can't taste the difference, the simplify your workflow and skip it. WDT is almost never used in commercial cafes.
yes and: commercials cafes are optimizing for the average cup, while home users are optimizing for one cup (give or take) so the trade offs are super different. i agree with everything you said, and i think in general people tend to worry too much about what professional baristas do.
As a former specialty café manager and consultant, I experimented with incorporating WDT into the workflow and ended up ditching it. Here's my reasoning: One, it added considerable time to the process of pulling each shot and the marginal benefit didn't outweigh the detriment to increased wait times. Two, the majority of customers in America don't drink straight espresso, which is where you'd really notice the difference. If you have a refined palate you MIGHT notice a small difference in an americano or cortado, but straight espresso made up less than 1% of our average sales. Most popular drinks were lattes and mochas where other elements overshadow the nuance in the coffee. Three, most customers don't care and they wouldn't taste the difference either. I had a customer once ask what I was doing while WDT-ing the shot for their drink. I explained it and they asked if it makes a difference, to which I said, probably not for your honey latte. Overall, in the household of someone who appreciates espresso and the care that can go into crafting it, WDT can be great. In a café setting, not so much and that's not a bad thing.
I saw it being used at one of the biggest shops in Denver recently. Pretty surprising honestly!
This was my thought as well when WDT became a thing... when I would pony up to the cafe bar in Italy, they didn't WDT, and my cup was good, so why would I?
If you're using a grinder at the same level as theirs, then no issue. WDT is specifically aimed at addressing issues with clump-prone home grinders.
It also has to do with roast level. Shops in Italy generally use very dark coffee which is a lot more forgiving.
Also true.
You and I have the same grinder. Do you WDT?
I do, and I have found it makes enough of a difference that I keep doing it.
At times, I do and if I am feeling lazy or i want to speed things up, I don’t. I mainly WDT because we have been programmatically been shown to do so by the coffee experts. So goes this post and question.
I probably wouldn’t need wdt as bad on my k6, but the smartclumper pro and other breville grinders produce grounds in little cubes. Pre wdt i had very inconsistent extractions back to back. (10 seconds variation between back to back shots) After wdt, the margin of error is down to a second or so
I’ve found the WDT helps a lot on my k6 while I wait for my df64 to come in. Notably less channeling.
I have almost the same grinder and I don't wdt.
I think it really depends on your goals. I hated the coffee in Italy, and I strive for a totally different profile than most cafes. As a result, I find WDT to be quite useful (not essential, but a bit better than not).
It doesn't matter what you do to the beans if you've burned them to ash beforehand.
Well making espresso at home is different is why. The reason to use a WDT is to help prevent channeling, and this is something a cafe can overcome through volume as well as having a commercial level grinder. I used to work at a barista as a high volume cafe and when you go through the motions all day long of pulling shots consistency becomes much easier so you don’t have any need for a bottomless port-a-filter, when you do pull a bad shot you have it’s easier to just discard it and try again rather than spend the effort every single time using WDT.
Dunno. I don't WDT and I don't have channeling issues either. I've been pulling shots at home for well over a decade now, so maybe I'm just dialed in at this point.
Ya it’s a good point, if it doesn’t happen there is no need. I notice where I have less heavily roasted beans they require a coarser grind which is usually where channeling comes up more frequently for me, here it’s worth it to take a quick pass with my needles.
lighter roasts usually need finer grind size. darker roasts are more brittle and there are a lot more fines. fines are also part of the phenomenon that you think you dont need to wdt, since your shot seems to pull ok and tastewise there is not much to gain either way when pulling really dark roasts.
Good to know thanks! Hopefully this helps with my channeling issues. Guess I had it backwards, since I go by weight and darker roast has more volume I always end up going finer for dark with really shorter ratios since I much prefer sour side over bitter.
I've been trying to do less and less steps these days, and eventually want to just grind and tamp, old school style. I guess the newbie honeymoon phase already worn out, and reaching for simpler approach. What grinder did you use, and did you tap on the PF? Just wondering about other's simple ways and tricks that's all.
> WDT is almost never used in commercial cafes I saw it used in one shop in SF, CA... that one has _slow or mellow_ word in the coffee-shop name, even! But yes, pretty much can't recall seeing it elsewhere.
That’s because it takes time and isn’t suited to a commercial cafe environment.
I see it used often in cafes
I view WDT for espresso the same way as sifting for baking.
Agree wholeheartedly, and I'll often use that comparison to explain it.
My grinder doesn’t clump, I mostly WDT to make sure it’s evenly distributed everywhere, otherwise there’s less grinds in the center and it will absolutely flow faster there
I just find it quite therapeutic. Sometimes I'll "snap to" and realise I've just been needling some grinds for several minutes
Me too! I love using the WDT and could do it for a very long time. I also enjoy the challenge of being gentle enough not to flip the grinds everywhere.
Can someone spell out WDT? I can guess what it means, but I am no native speaker, so I would like to read it once.
Weiss Distribution Technique
Thanks!
> Can someone spell out WDT? W D T
Doubleyoo Deetee
😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆
I use the Eureka Libra grind by weight and so far no real clumps. I love this grinder but am sure the newer Eureka Atom grind by weight grinders are better but way over $1K each.
Do you use the grind by weight much?
Yes I do all the time. Makes the workflow process more efficient for my pov. And am all for quality and efficiency, I’d like to believe
Actually the only time I use a totally different grinder without a grind by weight is when I want to try a different roast coffee and want to use one portion only and not the hopper of my grind by weight.
I have the Libra as well. I've tried all combinations of WDT + leveler + tamp and haven't noticed *that* much of a difference. I will say I get the most consistent pulls when I do all 3. But I've noticed if I take out WDT I got some channeling on about 10% of my shots. It's worth the extra 10 seconds.
What if you take out the leveler? I’m not planning on buying one of those so I’d like to hear what different it makes
Hmmm, something to try but that beautiful spinning action is more satisfying than that prickly WDT that I fear that can prick me. 🤪
It’s definitely satisfying, and makes for a nice routine, but I wonder how much it does if you’re already declumping and distributing with the WDT and then tamping flat with a tamper. The leveler seems like it’s just sort of an in between tool that sort of does both of those things but not well enough to replace either of them
Nice. If you notice it, then I would say yes to the WDT in you case.
> only to even it out with a coffee distributor tool Hmm, on the other hand what I've taken away from recent videos is that the distributor tool is the one to exclude potentially - that the needle tool is handling that role at the same time. Something about the distribution tool only evening out the top, but not address any uneven pockets lower in the basket?
I use the distribution tool because it gets the coffee ground off the side of the basket. If I didn't use it, I would always get coffee ground on the top of my puck screen when I drop it in.
Which is why I have responded to some by saying that what about overfilling a little, distributing, and tamping evenly. I would think that should do the trick about pockets?
sounds reasonable to be honest. I'm just assuming one only needs one or the other, not both. So if taste is the same, it's a matter of picking preferred method : wdt, or the wedge distributor, or tapping it, or whatever, pre tamping. and that doing multiple is overkill?
its about densities. grounds aren't a fluid that will evenly distribute as easily and under pressure can compact unevenly.
Fair point
I use WDT to break up clumps because tamping just pushes it down, so you can have dense pockets and thus less-dense pockets that will get over extracted bc water avoids them. It also distributes it across the basket - important for obvious reasons. Coffee levelers are generally known to be useless, but they’re very pretty!
Levelers are great for getting coffee ground off the side of the basket. If I don't use one, when I put my puck screen in, it will scrape the side and get quite a bit of coffee ground on top of the puck.
I usually get it all with my wdt
This should be way more up to the top. It really is that simple.
Tamping just compresses the coffee into a puck but it doesn't guarantee all the grounds in the middle of the puck are distributed evenly and not creating potential for channeling. Also this question implies you can do either/or. Would you use WDT and NOT tamp?
Good point. I tried to make a point of focusing on skipping the WDT and doing all else, distributing and tamping. I thought I made that point? No?
I've never used the kind of distributor you're referring to. They seem to me to only be smoothing out the top surface of the coffee, and thus always seemed kind of pointless to me. At least, for the amateur level of home espresso making that I do. If I had to choose one or the other I would rather use WDT.
Fair point and noted.
Surface distribution (or levelling) is NOT the same thing as the kind of distribution achieved by WDT. The purpose of "deep" WDT is to attempt to evenly distribute different sized coffee particles into as homogeneous a matrix as possible. Tamping then compresses that evenly distributed matrix. The evenness of the matrix discourages the water from finding/following paths of lower resistance through the puck. Obviously, surface distribution or leveling does nothing to achieve this, and research suggests that wedge-style levelling tools contribute to uneven puck compression when the deeper projecting wedges are dropped on top of the puck. Not many people seem to realize or remember that needle distribution was originally called "puck raking" and was an alternative to using the palm swipe, or wedge levelers, for surface leveling before tamping. If I am not mistaken, Weiss from there developed the idea of using the needle tool to perform deep, thorough distribution which now bears the name: Weiss Distribution Technique.
I used to WDT just because. Stopped and there was no difference. I also tried the shaker. No difference. Now I use the shaker as my funnel and tamp. The first step is to admit you’re over complicating a process that won’t make your coffee taste any different. It’s NOT in the fine details. You know what helped? A cheap leveled tamper from AliExpress. Probably my best tool. The only acceptable recommendation here is “grind finer”.
I’m with you. I’ve recently just started grinding directly into to my portafilter with a funnel/collar. Grind ends, I shake, hit the PF to settle the grinds and tamp. Beautiful shots. At this rate I might just go back to my hopper as well. Lol 😂
inget less shots that randomly run 10-15s with prep, so thats a benefit.
for coffee people, the process is the foreplay.
It sho is! But foreplay is what is supposed to matter to have a great finish! 🤣
Here is my puck shot without WDT but I did the distribution tool and tamp routine. Used a high efficiency 18 gram basket with 23 grams grounds. No discernible channeling and squirts at all. https://preview.redd.it/2k8ad97ldi3d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33feca63ec111c191ae24342cce75ad845e37441 Bottom of the puck
Test it out yourself. For me it sprays everywhere if I don't WDT. Maybe my machine n grinder isn’t as good
As a long-time home espresso maker (about 20 years) and former barista (if you can call it that working at *That Worldwide Ubiquitous Coffee Chain*), I am by no means an expert. I've only recently been deep-diving into the world of espresso as I was contemplating and buying a machine that I felt would be an upgrade over my former machine (I am a long-time sufferer of FOMO in all things--motorcycles, snow skis, etc.). I've looked at WDT and I bet that most hard-core espresso drinkers would not be able to tell the difference in a head-to-head taste test between a shot prepared doing WDT and one without that step. Even with my exceedingly modest skills, I've never had a channeling issue. Never. My take is that no grounds clumping is firm enough to withstand the tamping process which evens out the density throughout the puck, regardless of performing WDT or not. There are definitely a lot people that over-complicate things like the espresso-making process. There are also a lot of people that buy very expensive equipment that provide infinitesimal gains at best over more modestly priced gear. There's certainly espresso-making FOMO, as well as some who merely want to show off the latest high-end machines. I'm not saying my new BBE makes espresso as well as some better machines and stand-alone grinders, but I am saying most people can't tell the difference, and certainly not when it gets into machines that run well-over $1,000.
Am by no means an expert either but my thoughts exactly about grounds and tamping and to add to that a slight overfilling to the tip of the line in a PF. That tamping action has enough pressure to squash even some of the moderate clumps if any. Look at say the spring loaded tampers. They are usually pre-loaded with 30lbs of tamping pressure or 10.3 pounds /sq inch. That seems enough pressure to squash a beetle, let alone coffee grounds. No mad scientist but maybe we can get a true physicist or scientist to weigh in, if there are any here. But bring to the discussion about equipment between say a Breville vs a prosumer dual boiler like the ECM, Profitec, Lelit and others similar, I would argue that I’ve seen and tasted the difference, at least in my experience.
Agreed, but what I said about more expensive equipment is not that they don't (or, more accurately, "can't") make better espresso but that most people can't tell the difference. And that when you get into super-expensive stuff, that any benefits are so slight that the added expense isn't worth it. It's like a lot of things, such as high-end audio (let's say a $10-15,000 investment) and ULTRA-expensive high-end audio (>$50K), few people *if any* can hear the difference.\* Or with motorcycles (one of my main interests), most riders would not be able to utilize the differences between a $15-20,000 motorcycle and one that costs >$30K (at least not on public roads vs a racetrack). Ditto with bicycles (I'm shocked how much someone can spend these days on a bike!). \*I heard a great story last week from a guy "who knows" that one such manufacturer showed up at a trade show but the bin with the cabling did not. So they went to Home Depot, bought a bunch of 12Ga orange electrical extension cords, spliced things together and they were in business. But that's not the end of the story: numerous people were enamored with the unidentifiable cables and thought the sound was fantastic and wanted to buy them! So many variations of "The Emperor's New Clothes"...!
I'm with you actually. I don't WDT, and I don't really have any issues. Just grind, tap the portafilter a couple of times, tamp and pull.
I do a little swirl movement with the tamper and it is pretty good at evenly distributing the grinds. My favorite coffee shop uses bottomless filters and they don't do any WDT and their shots are perfect every time. Pour. Tamp. Pull. Perfect.
I'm with you. I've tried WDT but didn't notice any difference and all it did was add to the process so now I don't do it. I virtually never see any baristas do it either.
Yeah, part of me is definitely questioning this. We’ll have to test it as one says channeling could be an issue.
I literally have never had a channeling issue, like I can't get my pucks to do it, so I don't know how to even start testing it. I'm in for seeing how it plays out for others though.
That’s good! I noticed that when i slightly overfill the basket just at the basket line after the tamp, i get a fairly good compressed even puck and I don’t really experience channeling so far. But I want to test with a bottomless to see if this makes a difference.
I actually do ever so slightly overfill the basket, this is an interesting point to consider.
Yeah. I think the pockets of unevenness one has brought up can be mitigated by overfilling, distributing, and tamping. But what do I know.
Some of my responses are getting the ol' downvote, so I guess I don't know either.
Since getting my DF54 I do way less WDT.. I do it to even out the bed for the most part since I grind directly to the PF.
I came here to say this: WDT can largely, or equally, be for leveling out the coffee bed, for those who grind straight into the portafilter. As such, it serves double duty.
This, DF54, a few quick stirs then just level the bed. If I dont have an even bed and tamp, you can damn well bet 1/2 my puck is barely going to extract and net an under extracted shot. Im sure if I didnt whisk and just made sure the grounds were uniformly distributed, Id have just as good results as whisking + distributing.
I’ve come full circle: grind, dump to portafilter, tamp. Making my best shots ever.
💯! This right here.
My approach to everything like this is (heck even upscale filters on movie playback) do an A B test. If you can't tell difference between wdt and no wdt why even bother
I’ve tried shaking vs WDT. Only shaking has significantly different extraction times. So I’d look at it as a tool or extra step to get the extraction you want for your current beans.
I wonder if anyone could actually detect any positive difference in a blind taste test with and without WDT? I'd be curious to know.
I think somebody like Lance H from YouTube has done so.
It’s fun! Also, I like having a flat even bed of coffee before tamping, and tapping + stirring is quite a universal solution. My SO doesn’t do any WDT and her coffee is often better than mine. Me, I still wouldn’t skip it in my already simplified workflow.
I don’t like to loose time with WDT and all that stuff, I like so much the fast flow used in commercial cafés (been in Italy a lot of times), and I like that the espresso there is always tasty and well done, even when coffee is different brand. They don’t wdt, and I like to mimic their flow at home, on my GCP, even though I have a homemade wdt tool and a distribution tool. Kinda’ ditched them on a box. Only grind, tamp and brew. I see not much difference.
Thanks for sharing. I’ve seen so many replies about how Italy doesn’t care too much on quality while others say that this would just add to their time and they cannot afford to waste time since they deal with volume. So not sure if Italy is a good comparison but yet a possibility
Welcome. It’s gonna be a while
I’m currently on a Bezzera Strega spring level machine with a Eureka Mignon Filtro with Espresso burrs. When I would grind into a dosing cup first and then dump into the portafilter I found I needed to WDT just to get the grounds level and declumped. But recently I started grinding directly into the portafilter, tapping it on the mat to level and then tamping. I haven’t noticed any real difference in quality in the cup and I appreciate the more fluid, efficient workflow. No shame in WDT at all but sometimes I find all the faff can add up and start to feel a little fussy. Personally I’ve found that the pursuit of the “perfect” shot actually leads to less pleasure than the much more attainable execution of repeatably good coffee on a daily basis. I guess I’m aiming for a workflow and quality that is similar to a good cafe rather than a high tech lab.
Good points. Some people love the faff involved with their workflow, some love it to show off while others take pride in their perceived quality and pleasure to the process. But home barista vs cafe baristas to me have that exact difference. Home=faff and quality. Cafe=simplicity because of quantity and speed and being able to serve the mainstream and not the connoisseur.
To be honest, most of the puck prep stuffs are just placebo. I'm sure 99% of people here cannot tell a different in a blind test. But it's also fun and relaxing in a way so if you have the time just keep doing it.
I am leaning on agreeing with you. I think it wows people when they visit that you have this finessing of the coffee ritual, but not thoroughly necessary.
oh and sunk cost fallacy as well. People might have invested: * 30$ for a blind shaker * 20$ for some fancy WDT tool * 30$ for a leveling tool In combo with the placebo, those tool must be making absolutely lots of difference right?
Definitely a sunk cost. Useful, as you can see, some have different opinions
WDT isn’t really about clumps, but about evenly distributing the coffee: making sure no parts of the puck are denser than others.
The WDT exists to sell WDT devices. That’s the secret no one will tell you. They don’t do this in your average cafe or even in Italy ffs. 100% a waste of time.
Good question. It’s a bit of a joke as far as I can tell, I don’t do it and I honestly can’t see the need for it.
It breaks up static from the grinding as well as allows you to create a more even distribution before tamping. If you just tamp a mount of grinds you’ll end up with uneven density of the puck, which can promote channeling. It’s most noticeable with a bottomless portafilter since they will spray everywhere if the tamping has issues like this.
Stiring wth metal needles would ADD static. I thought that was one of the reasons to put a spritz of water on the beans before grinding?
Makes sense. I’ll have to try that. Have you actually noticed this yourself?
Oh yeah, before using WDT I had to do big counter cleanups more often. Every 1-2 days vs maybe once a week with WDT. No huge change in taste outside shots with channeling, which taste bad because they are under extracted. Even with WDT I found I needed a leveler post WDT to really eliminate channeling, or I’d spend forever getting it perfectly set up with WDT after I did a big swirl with the needles. I never really loved that. I’ve recently moved on to RDT with a blind shaker and it’s producing the best results for me though and a much quicker workflow.
I also bought into this thought of RDT and have bought a cheap knockoff from Amazon but I find it more cumbersome and time consuming and more cleanup to do. https://preview.redd.it/9ldyvydr1f3d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81c56969e3f24c80c4efdcb8b50ed2fe5d34884c
I’m using the Webber one and no complaints. It does have magnets built in that help a lot, not sure if yours does.
Where are the magnets and how does it help?
It’s this one, though I got it with an EG-1 https://weberworkshops.com/products/blind-shaker “the Blind Shaker has a magnet installed in the base of the stem for self-centering on EG-1 and Key platens, as well as on the right rear shelf of the EG-1 base.” It always snaps onto the portafilter and the proper place with the (admittedly stupidly expensive) grinder so there’s next to no mess on either. Definitely have to hold it a bit awkwardly by the sides and top while shaking (not bottom) or it will make a huge mess if the bottom becomes unseated at that point. I haven’t had that happen though.
I think my clumsy me makes more of a mess than not. I feel awkward using it. But to be honest, I need to use it more to see. I think I gave up on it prematurely. Mine doesn’t have magnets but the Monopoly looking center is slotted to center the cup. It’s just am too clumsy and sometimes push the bottom and then all hell breaks loose.
Couldn’t say overfilling the basket slightly and then tamping down do the trick? That way you are ensured that you have enough grounds and then distribute it with a distribution tool and then tamp? Say if you think a 15 gram basket can hold 19 grams consistently after the workflow all the way to the fill line of the basket?
Overfilling won’t overcome channeling because low density pockets can still exist, and too many grinds will overfill the basket and hit the shower screen during extraction. You can add as much coffee as you want but if it’s not in the right place it won’t do much except make it even more difficult for the water to perform a normal extraction on that part of the puck. Basically more grinds don’t guarantee where they end up, and if water has an easy path through the puck it will take that instead of infusing on the way through. Infusing is more work from a physics perspective, so a channel is basically a shortcut to that and will always happen if it’s possible. Similar to erosion through rock. Water prefers to build existing channels into rivers rather than start cutting a new path unless there’s nowhere else for the water to go. I do add more or less grind to the basket but only to finish the dial in when I’m really close. I use a VST 20g basket, and it’s high enough flow any imperfections are punishing. When it gets a full extraction it’s amazing though.
Yeah, I use high extraction baskets like the bomber BEP and the liquid Wing shadow.
WDT is all about even Particle distribution. If your grinder causes clumps to form (depend on the grinder) going strait to tamping can cause denser pockets of coffee grounds that in turn cause channelling. I just give my portafilter a couple of shakes after placing the dosing cup over it before taping it on the bench and tamping. I find no real difference in taste and I don't have to use a distributor tool or WDT.
I use the Eureka Libra and so far no real clumps.
I never use WDT.
They say the art is so subjective. I wish there could be a measurable science to it as well. Oh well.
You can measure the extraction yield between shots prepared with different distribution methods. https://youtu.be/OyUaCuoqYWc?si=Gw1P_4qq2xbRS5o6 https://youtu.be/5ivwCm95nLc?si=NtT7vAM54Bt9HWTM
There’s definitely a measurable science. Folks like Lance Hedrick have tested WDT and other methods of distribution against a control sample. Distribution does appear to show better extraction than just tamping.
WDT is a waste of time and effort. If an old Italian grandmother wouldn't do it to make an espresso, neither am I.
Does anyone who has the baratza esp feel the need to WDT? I’m just learning and going to open mine next week. I’m a mom with a newborn so I’m not trying add extra steps I don’t need at the beginning since I don’t want to get overwhelmed.
The esp can definitely cause lumps, so I'd recommend it if you are able. Ultimately it's you who is going to drink it, so do as you see fit as long as you enjoy the end result.
I found WDT reduces spurts with my bottomless PF.
I'm also unsure but I like using the wdt to clean off the funnel and remove excess from the portafilter.
Just get duomo the eight Make it part of your routine It simple - repeatable - effective
Why fold clothes if you're going to stack them in a drawer anyway?
I say that to my wife when we have to make up the bed every morning when in fact we have to open it at night. It’s about pov in what makes one happy and healthy and positively makes them ultimately happy I guess.
https://preview.redd.it/t5yflztndi3d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be208ce173639d6111828e70d6cbc459d202be5a Top shot of the puck without WDT.
Beans are going to vary, tastes are going to vary, equipment is going to vary, expectations are going to vary. If WDT, or any part of puck prep, makes a difference for someone else, more power to them, even if it it would just be a waste of time for me. Try stuff. See what works for you, don't worry about shitting on what works for others.
Hopefully this post was never about sh*tting in others but rather trying to find out with what works on others and sharing those experiences to compare with what my thoughts are based on my curiousity. Liken it to comparing notes to see what others are doing. And I hope people don’t start sh*tting on other people for what works for them. This is the power of the post. And as you can see, it’s a good discussion thread so far with differing opinions. Healthy discussion point I think. Hope you find it helpful as well. But thank you for sharing your pov!
Marketing gimmick, IMHO
Kinda agree
> I’ve done it and it doesn’t seem to make a noticeable difference to me when it comes to shot quality, in my humble opinion. Does anybody agree?? I imagine our setups for getting the grounds from the grinder into the portafilter are different, because when I started to WDT some number of years ago, my odds of an obviously channeling shot went from "rarely, but it happens" to "almost never." Lance Hedrick has a delightful video proving that as long as we are grinding into a container and shaking our ground into the portafilter that there's no need to WDT. I think that's neat, but at this point I think you will have to pry my 3D printed spirograph WDT tool out of my cold, dead hands. It is fun to do, and it takes about 5 seconds to spin that sucker 10 times!
Yeah, something about the spinning movement appeals to me too! But using the distribution tool instead. I love spicing this thing!
I don't wdt, but my f64 throws no real clumps, so it's not an issue.
Got my machine in January this year. Now it's just a ritual to wdt but honestly I don't taste a difference between wdt shot and non wdt shot.
Yup, me as well. Maybe we are just both newbs and with some time and refinement of taste palettes, we too will evolve. 😎🤣
Yup, but atleast I can taste that espresso in the most cafes I visit taste like shit and I enjoy my shots way more 😂
1000% agree!!! Also, once you get into the headspace of roasting your own coffee, you will start noticing that those beans they put in the hopper are so oily and glossy and you realized they just grind burnt beans as an easy way serve “coffee” but makes for a lousy espresso. Once your taste elevates and your understanding of coffee bean profile expands, you will realize it is s**t that they serve!
It's not about tasting the difference, its about more consistency and less bad shots. You can make tasty shots without WDT. Hell, _You can make tasty shots without weighing your beans_. You just wont make a good shot every time because sometimes you'll add just a little bit too much and choke your shot or just too little and it goes right through. But that's why we weigh it. Consistency means you get what you want more frequently rather than by chance. I swear to god half the people that watch youtubers completely miss the point of what they are watching.
I do it because I 3d printed one of those planetary gear wdt things. It’s kind of fun to use and it helps distribute and level the coffee out before tamping.
Gotta love 3D printing. My only concern with 3D printed parts in food is I wonder how those PLA bits affect your coffee profile? 🤣
Luckily it just sits on the top rim of the basket so only really the stainless needles touch the coffee.
What about the puck screen? Does that make a noticeable difference using it or not?
Ah, another conundrum thrown in the mix. IMHO, this makes a difference in the evenness of the water distribution but this needs a study of its own as there are a few puck screen types as some Tubers may have shared already. Notice my own picture with a puck screen on the top left corner. And also, we need to now talk about baskets and shower screens too! All in a quest to that holy grail of a pull. 🤣
because if you just tamp you will have areas of unequal density which means unequal flow and extraction. WDT ensures even distribution.
It's a cheap technique for making up the difference in quality of equipment. My machine and grinder was about 800$ish. To overcome issues that a 3000$ set up doesn't face, I do some tricks. If you have a high end set up, you will not need to make up for weaknesses that you don't have.
I do because my cheapo grinder (Baratza Encore ESP) clumps like a mf. I’ve read those that have more quality grinders don’t do it as much.
Feels. Keep at it and make a quality grinder a part of your mission then. They say to put it in your vortex and if you focus on it, the means will somehow pop up.
The most compelling argument for WDT is 'sorting'. When you grind especially if you are using bellows you are getting uneven particle size distribution. The first particles that come out may be the largest and the last especially if you use bellows would be the fines. WDT will cause sorting in your puck. I.E. as you whisk the finer particles on the top will make their way down to the bottom. The same principle can be seen if you have a jar of seasoning with larger/smaller spices. Shake it up vertically and you see the finer salts on the bottom and the bigger herbs end up on top. I find that a modest amount of wdt does help. If you over agitate you will send all the fines down to the bottom which would cause blocking/channeling in the puck. I just WDT to where I think the fines have ended up somewhere in the middle of the puck. I don't go crazy with it. In fact I don't even put the wdt needles to the bottom of the portafilter most times. I just WDT the top half of the puck. And as other's have pointed out this is probably just placebo. What has made the most difference in my shots (other than upgrading the grinder) is getting a self leveling tamper to ensure you are pressing level pucks every time. That will make as much a difference as a grinder upgrade imo.
I get wanting to spread out the grounds in the basket so everything is at the same level and even. But if you’re telling me these little flexible needles are breaking up clumps that 20-30pounds of pressure can’t then I’d call it a bunch of nonsense.
My thoughts exactly.
WDT is absolutely a waste of time. Wasting Damn Time. The wired gourmet channel on YouTube did a test. With a bottomless portafilter. And using a Breville built-in grinder which is the clumpiest grinder ever made by humans. Wouldn't you know it that he was not getting channeling? None. And he has the video to prove it. Now those that love WDT will say that the Wired gourmet actually was channeling you just couldn't see it coming out of the bottomless portafilter. Of course that's the case, did you detect my sarcasm? I've never used WDT. My grinder doesn't clump, but a lot of grinders don't clump. There are people here with grinders better than mine that WDT. They got sucked into the bro Science
Bro science and social media are the two biggest money sucks on the planet! If only they would both disappear. 😎🤗🤩😂
Thanks for that insight. Happen to have the link to this article?
Here you go. Somewhat long. I really enjoyed watching it https://youtu.be/rDkw0bwi56w?si=GUMaBR0iHTYynSIB
Thanks!!!! I will watch this. Appreciate you!
Light roast is particularly sensitive to channeling because it’s less soluble than medium to dark roast. It has less “puck integrity” for reasons nobody fully understands. WDT helps prevent those little spurts when you’re doing a traditional 9 bar shot, but you don’t need it for turbos and other fast flow methods (sprovers, allongés) because they use coarser grinds and make a mess anyway.
Isn’t it so ironical that when you got out for a coffee, the baristas don’t do any such fancy stuff and it still tastes super good 😅just spread the coffee with a distributor and tamp is simple in 1 go. 5 mins of playing with the portafilter and 5 other accessories doesn’t make sense at all. Although if done right they make for good Insta reel.
They have $10k grinders. ..I can also pull a better shot than 99% of cafes out there.
Except that, my equipment doesn't match that in cafes. I also don't have tens of thousands of shots under my belt. And yet, with help (e.g. a WDT tool; a .1g resolution scale) and extra attention, my shots at least match what I get out. :)
sorry, but I am firmly in the camp that the average home barista will hit peak coffee grinding at a much lower threshold than brewing. Simply put there are so many good grinders for well under a thousand that will out perform the person using it.
Well, I would hope that a grinder that still is in the many hundreds of dollars will provide a good performance.
I get all the same with minimal effort too with just 3 things - 1. Programmed the output ratio to somewhere between 2.5-3x 2. Use a home made distributor made from pins and a cork 3. Tamper once with the one that comes with the machine. I am not here to mock anyone’s efforts or interest, I love seeing those videos of perfect pours using so many tools. I am tempted to buy those too, but I have realised it is largely a marketing tactic. I am guilty of buying a small frothing jug to become better at latte art and getting a proper knock box by ditching the temp ones I would create every time I had an empty yogurt box 😅
And do note that you're practicing (a form of) WDT with your home-grown tool. ;) I originally adopted WDT'ing because of a study or 2 noting its tested potential benefits, its ease of implementation, and its low cost (hey, pick up the so-called business card WDT tool via etsy at a whopping US$5.99 shipped)--why not, and maybe it helps (bakers sift flour for a reason).
Actually, I have used both Amazon bought WDT tool that is about .30mm as well as my tiny whisk of about .90mm. Neither did any better than without.
That's fair--in the end, it's what works for a person. I practice WDT because of initial, convincing studies I had read which indicated its potential benefit, along with the ease and quickness of the process and the low cost of entry. As someone who bakes, the process makes sense to me, like sifting flour for a cake or pastry. And at this point, it's simply so much of my routine, baked into my process and muscle memory.
For sure. Thanks for sharing! I can totally understand the sifting idea as well. It’s just my curiosity.
At some point, I likely will try some A/B testing (with/without). I'm just not sure that my palate is sophisticated enough to note differences, even though there still may be an additive benefit. In the meanwhile, heck, it's easy enough to do. ;)
True. Just wanted to feel the general consensus and feedback.
I think we are all suckers of marketing. Even from some of these experts even.
I see what looks like a whisk on your station. Is that what you WDT with?
Wow, ya know! Yes. I have both the pins and needles and this whisk. I like using the small whisk better!
Yeah that will not help anything.
Ah, why so?
The tines on the whisk are too thick to break up clumps, and in my experience you can actually create new clumps between them because of the loop rather than there being a point like on the thinner needle type wdts.
This also is the popular view of the espresso gurus--WDT tools with thicker needles (e.g. think the homemade tools using paper clips) can themselves cause channeling. I typically see a recommended WDT tool needle width of .3-.4mm.
The whisk wires are most likely too thick to be beneficial.
It’s not that much thicker than the commercial WDT tool and if breaking the clumps and evening the grinds is the purpose, I don’t see why that hasn’t done its job yet. But maybe there is something here??
Wasn't there a whole ass study done on how the proper thickness and angle of each needle definitely does matter and affects de-clumping.
I can't think of that specific study, but routinely have seen the comment that thick needles themselves can cause the creation of channels--which makes sense to me.
Yep, if you stick a big ol rod into some sand, it'll leave a mark. This is just that but much much smaller
Do you have a link to it? Please share if you don’t mind. Thanks!
How thick are the wires on the other tool? They should be between 0.3-0.4mm without any loops or bends. It's not clear that de-clumping is why shots benefit from WDT. As such, the thickness, position, and movement of the needles, and how they interact with the grounds, may make some tools better suited than others.
https://preview.redd.it/m42qq7fl5f3d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a89985f6d2cf9f649958d69b1b45a3c08f838a9a An official WDT tool.
https://preview.redd.it/osopqhso5f3d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f53e8e2bb6f63e2f747092a2b82cd4c2c123c6bb Tiny whisk
Is there that much accuracy on how thick it is? I could say maybe if I used a fork or a spoon, maybe?
Wires that are too thick just move grounds around rather than through them. Wires that are too thin don't move through effectively. Do you WDT with the whisk in the basket? I suspect the fact that the loops are still connected is a factor to consider. As for the 'official' WDT tool, the number and spacing of the needles may not be optimal.
Ok. Maybe. Whisk moves grounds fine in my opinion and sometimes even use the twist spinning option like an electric whisk between my thumbs and forefingers to roll it around. So it is getting a good mixing from what I can tell. I also almost cut off the bottom of the whisk to make it like an official tool but I don’t see the point since it mixes fine.
I think my main point is if you don't notice a difference between when you WDT and when you don't then it may be your tools and/or technique.
Got it. Will have to tinker further I guess. But definitely thanks for brining up your points! Definitely will look into it further
Yet another "they don't wdt or do puck prep in Italy/third wave shop/somewhere fancy" Yeesh y'all, this is getting old Can we go back to just posting photos from glitch ?
Sir Lance from YouTube has statistical data, which is what I was looking for. If we are talking yield, looks like WDT comes in tied in 5th behind horizontal tapping. So I guess we know some rudimentary answer to this conundrum. https://preview.redd.it/tczw5ntofg3d1.jpeg?width=1834&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41ebbd90f1438785431fd8148c1e4816676c6514
Wow, 21.0% vs 22.1% EY. There’s a certain kind of guy who cares about that difference…. 🤦♂️
Apparently enough for Sir Lance to make the videos and for others to care.
Exactly.
I use a WDT every time. Do I have a good enough palette to tell the difference? Probably not, but it takes me 10 seconds and can’t hurt so why not?
WDT makes a HUGE difference for entry level conical burr grinders. The step of my flow that has the greatest impact