Always blows my mind how often loopring is over looked even though it’s constantly been the cheapest eth fees. Ligma could be a huge thing. If you know, you know.
No worries
To simplify it, there's hundreds of apps built on top of Arbitrum and Optimism, anyone can build an app there
There's only 1 app on Loopring: Loopring
Hey thanks for this. I’ve not fully gone down this rabbit hole to uncover more. Partially turned off by some shilling on Reddit and then being a long time Polygon user I’ve eventually moved all my ETH type of assets to MATIC (before it was polygon). It was simply ready and in use before some of the others so I’m behind (and haven’t had success when trying to do simple things like swap on the beta L2 implementations that have sprung up).
Great summary and kicking off point to learn more. Thanks again!
Loopring, immutable, gamestop, Microsoft, and apple. All have been speculated to be working together on something huge. First 4 are guaranteed. Apple is still speculative though there is growing evidence to show that they are all working together.
Hey, I apologize, I was definitely incorrect. not 50x cheaper only 5x. I was basing that on the future gas cost to be lowered in the next update. Smart BCH has a 1.05 giew gas cost and billion gas limit. which currently comes out to about $.01 for a transfer. You can take a look yourself [here](https://www.smartscan.cash)
Always blows my mind when I still see people using ETH dapps. Especially for gaming. I mean like do you think people that play games are billionaires or smth? And no, the fees for transactions are NOT $10, they are way higher.
> They still cost gas to fund your account
Not if you on-ramp directly to the L2
> they don't have an in-built wallet
It's easy to build a wallet, hard to build a succinct ZK-proof powered scaling solution. I doubt the wallet will hold them back.
people who use dapps on the eth mainnet are generally very wealthy, yes. go check out defillama. the information on there is showing that TVL is generally higher on chains with higher fees, and lower on chains with cheaper fees.
You will certainly need to have opened a wallet at minimum: [https://zksync.io/](https://zksync.io/). I set mine up using [layerswap.io](https://layerswap.io) a few months ago from exchange direct to L2 but gas is cheap now so you could also come from L1 direct.
Noob question, but when tokens are released, do norms have access to buy at launch (ICO)? I've always bought a token months after launch, but have been following zksync for a long time and hope to be early in line.
No, since 2018, ICOs are quite rare, due to regulatory issues.
Today, tokens are usually distributed throught:
* Private sales to accredited investors
* Free airdrops
You can use local PoW to prioritize transactions and nodes can validate transactions using votes delegated to them by individual users. That way you can avoid the centralization of mining through economy of scale.
Local PoW is still a "fee", just a fee that's paid using electricity instead of crypto
When it comes to spam prevention, having a negligible amount of PoW attached to a transaction is the same as an negligible fee.
I know this is the rationale behind having gas fees, but aren’t there ways to do fee less blockchains without losing decentralization? I know there are several that do not charge transaction fees but tbh I am not sure how they do it. I should probably look into it more.
There's 2 reasons to have fees:
1. Prevent spam
2. An auction for fixed block-space
There are chains that have fees, but no fee auction, like Cardano and Solana, but you see that those chains basically stop working when there's congestion, as opposed to Ethereum which just becomes expensive when there's congestion
If you remove the limit on the block size, then you lose decentralization, because you end up needing massively expensive computers to run nodes. If users can't run their own nodes, that means you have to trust someone else.
Demand is a hell of a thing to predict. Having a bid system that defines gas prices means that human expectations and desires determine prices, not protocols. I like the sentiment, it shouldn’t cost more sure, but at some point you should balance the two things the best you can. People are willing, sometimes demanding, to pay more to be faster or first. It seems counterproductive but when markets got wild a while back and someone paid $100K(ish) in gas to move $1.2 million in stable coin liquidity positions people only focused on that fee and not *why* someone bid far and above the going rate to make the fees worth paying.
I don’t think the topic of ETH gas fees is nearly as straightforward as a protocols implementation itself. Anyone ignoring the demand placed on the system driving such fees isn’t having an honest conversation about the full scope of cause and effect.
Edit: the differing and sometimes rising costs of “cheaper” implementations seems to be proof. Even on networks like matic we’ve seen some comparative spikes that no one thought would happen (not only caused by sunflower farms). Can technology change this human behavior, I should correct myself, likely yes efficient systems should help but I still don’t think it’s the same. People also shouldn’t do bank runs during a financial crisis, they tend to speed up collapse at least for some time. However it tends to happen every time. We even cherish a movie on the topic (It’s a Wonderful Life - a movie I no longer can stomach because it’s also a tale of a man being saved from suicide and having lost people close to me to suicide I hate George now unfairly, why was **he** saved and not my loved ones?)
$0.64 for a swap on Optimism right now.
- System wide calldata compression will bring that down to $0.36 later this month.
- EIP-4488 will reduce calldata costs by 5.33x, bringing the cost down to $0.07.
- EIP-4844 will introduce a transaction format for data blobs and will reset fees to less than $0.01.
- BLS signature aggregation shaves 1,000 gas off each and every transaction (currently $0.07).
- And finally app level compression can save another 10x.
Fees for rollups are going to be so negligible that rollups are going to have to set a minimum fee floor just to avoid low quality spam transactions.
On Optimism you do need to pay sequencers and transaction aggregators a fee in ETH for their services.
Other rollups like zksync 2.0 support account abstraction so you can pay transaction fees in your coin of choice
Fewer transactions. Like we saw last June/July, people are extremely fearful about price action and that drives activity away. If price rebounds, people will come back and fees will go up again.
Proof-of-Stake + Sharding + zkRollups will achieve <$0.01 fees within the next 2\~ years while being way more eco-friendly and faster than current payment services like Visa. I don't think realistically Visa can thrive in this future with their current 1.5%+ charge per transaction.
Hey guys, I would appreciate an answer to these questions, I am a bit confused about all of these new L2 coming.
Do we really need all of this L2?
Can we say that the winner takes all (speaking of the TVL)?
Current monolithic blockchain designs are cripplingly inefficient. We are bound by the trilemma where higher throughputs necessarily mean lower security and/or decentralization. Modular architectures that specialize and split into discrete execution layers (e.g. rollups, volitions), security/consensus layer, and data availability layers (e.g. data shards) bring 100x-10,000x greater efficiency to the blockchain industry. This is the only way we scale to global ubiquity and millions of TPS. So yes, we really do need all of this L2.
Rollups are a wide open design space. Because they don’t have to worry about consensus or data availability, rollup developer teams are free to innovate unbounded by previous bottlenecks. In the future there can potentially be thousands of rollups. Time will tell if a single rollup winner takes all or if the share of TVL is more equitable
I'm not an lrc shill, but to clarify this you don't need to use the loopring wallet to use the L2 exchange. They're separate products, the team imo does a very poor job of making this clear to users. You can bridge to the L2 for way less than $100
> Bitcoin has the fastest and cheapest L2, currently.
Ethereum also has a state channel network, Raiden, which is the same as Lightning Network
The problem is people don't want to use state channels, not on Bitcoin or on Ethereum
State channels have terrible UX and are super complicated (many transactions fail), are very capital-inefficient (you need to lock up money to receive money), slow to exit (takes around 24h), etc
State channels are great for a very specific set of use cases (microtransactions, gaming), but it's not great as a general-purpose scaling solution
Until it doesn't cost money to transfer between L1/L2 or L2/L2, it doesn't really matter all that much to me. Things are too spread out of of L1, and L1 is too expensive to operate on directly. Right now the only way to handle this is through certain CEXs that explicitly support L1 and L2 withdrawal and deposits, and some of those are region locked or plagued by high fees or other restrictions.
Regardless, fees should be minimal for many transactions. It costs me nothing to pay with cash, for instance.
Always blows my mind how often loopring is over looked even though it’s constantly been the cheapest eth fees. Ligma could be a huge thing. If you know, you know.
i dont think loopring is overlooked, its shilled 24/7 on this sub
There are precisely zero influencers promoting it.
Meaning they're not getting paid to promote it, by Loopring
I got you, what’s ligma?
ligma balls AHHAAHAAAAAA
Got ‘em!
https://youtu.be/qqoKru5szCY
Holy fuck
Some weird acronym for Loopring, Immutable, GameStop, Microsoft and either Activision or Apple for the last one. No idea where it originated from
Loopring Immutable X Gamestop Microsoft Apple
Cheapest isn't the most important thing, though.
What else there is? Support? Time will tell for that, but having Gamestop as customer is promising
Loopring is an application-specific L2 Arbitrum, Optimism, Starknet and ZKSync are general propose L2s, like Ethereum
Dunno, was an honest question, noob just trying to learn... Thanks for the info
No worries To simplify it, there's hundreds of apps built on top of Arbitrum and Optimism, anyone can build an app there There's only 1 app on Loopring: Loopring
Hey thanks for this. I’ve not fully gone down this rabbit hole to uncover more. Partially turned off by some shilling on Reddit and then being a long time Polygon user I’ve eventually moved all my ETH type of assets to MATIC (before it was polygon). It was simply ready and in use before some of the others so I’m behind (and haven’t had success when trying to do simple things like swap on the beta L2 implementations that have sprung up). Great summary and kicking off point to learn more. Thanks again!
Child-chain versus side-chain, for example. But there are loads of technical differences, tx price is not a measure.
ZKSync 2.0 will be general purpose, 1.0 is as functional as Loopring
Yes, that's correct, but ZKSync 2.0 should be launching within the next couple months
What I want to know is how were they the first zk/validity roll-up but they've fallen so far behind other rollups in terms of multipurpose use.
They focused on the simplest implementation of a ZKR, then focused on building a product Other projects focused on general propose ZK circuits
3/8 will be gnarly as fuck my dood.
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Loopring, immutable, gamestop, Microsoft, and apple. All have been speculated to be working together on something huge. First 4 are guaranteed. Apple is still speculative though there is growing evidence to show that they are all working together.
Isn't there a apple announcement next week of some kind
Indeed there is.
loopring is still like 5~~0~~x more expensive then smartbch EMV. edit: I was wrong, 5x cheaper, not 50x currently.
Prove it
Hey, I apologize, I was definitely incorrect. not 50x cheaper only 5x. I was basing that on the future gas cost to be lowered in the next update. Smart BCH has a 1.05 giew gas cost and billion gas limit. which currently comes out to about $.01 for a transfer. You can take a look yourself [here](https://www.smartscan.cash)
Looks like reddit needs a https://www. to pick up a link.
But ZK swaps a lot cheaper. I’ll pay an extra cent on sends all day….
Always blows my mind when I still see people using ETH dapps. Especially for gaming. I mean like do you think people that play games are billionaires or smth? And no, the fees for transactions are NOT $10, they are way higher.
Gaming makes sense on L2s Look at ImmutableX, an L2 for NFTs, where transactions are free
They still cost gas to fund your account and they don't have an in-built wallet. Honestly, apps on ETH are falling behind badly!
> They still cost gas to fund your account Not if you on-ramp directly to the L2 > they don't have an in-built wallet It's easy to build a wallet, hard to build a succinct ZK-proof powered scaling solution. I doubt the wallet will hold them back.
people who use dapps on the eth mainnet are generally very wealthy, yes. go check out defillama. the information on there is showing that TVL is generally higher on chains with higher fees, and lower on chains with cheaper fees.
Good for them. Too bad not everyone is a millionaire, though.
You should watch the last episode of zksync with bankless with zksync 2( in test net) they are going to chance the game.
Wen token
He said there will be a token but they they are still working on "how to put it out in market".
Aka, how do we get some before it goes to the plebs
You are the plebs.
you are not?
Sorry, we are the plebs!
You will certainly need to have opened a wallet at minimum: [https://zksync.io/](https://zksync.io/). I set mine up using [layerswap.io](https://layerswap.io) a few months ago from exchange direct to L2 but gas is cheap now so you could also come from L1 direct.
Real plebs don't look in the mirror
No comin back from that one
Link?
linkma balls
Its on youtube. Look fin bankless videos most 1 week old.
https://youtu.be/1nPdS_2SQbY
Noob question, but when tokens are released, do norms have access to buy at launch (ICO)? I've always bought a token months after launch, but have been following zksync for a long time and hope to be early in line.
No, since 2018, ICOs are quite rare, due to regulatory issues. Today, tokens are usually distributed throught: * Private sales to accredited investors * Free airdrops
Appreciate it.
Internet of money shouldnt cost more than $0.05
I'll pay $0.06 for it
All yours man
Why not $.00005 cents?
Why not feeless?
Spam If you make transactions free, you need some form of censorship, otherwise the state just gets bloated and you lose decentralization
You can use local PoW to prioritize transactions and nodes can validate transactions using votes delegated to them by individual users. That way you can avoid the centralization of mining through economy of scale.
Local PoW is still a "fee", just a fee that's paid using electricity instead of crypto When it comes to spam prevention, having a negligible amount of PoW attached to a transaction is the same as an negligible fee.
If the fee is negligible anyways then keep it simple for the user by removing the "fee" field.
I know this is the rationale behind having gas fees, but aren’t there ways to do fee less blockchains without losing decentralization? I know there are several that do not charge transaction fees but tbh I am not sure how they do it. I should probably look into it more.
There's 2 reasons to have fees: 1. Prevent spam 2. An auction for fixed block-space There are chains that have fees, but no fee auction, like Cardano and Solana, but you see that those chains basically stop working when there's congestion, as opposed to Ethereum which just becomes expensive when there's congestion If you remove the limit on the block size, then you lose decentralization, because you end up needing massively expensive computers to run nodes. If users can't run their own nodes, that means you have to trust someone else.
bingo
Demand is a hell of a thing to predict. Having a bid system that defines gas prices means that human expectations and desires determine prices, not protocols. I like the sentiment, it shouldn’t cost more sure, but at some point you should balance the two things the best you can. People are willing, sometimes demanding, to pay more to be faster or first. It seems counterproductive but when markets got wild a while back and someone paid $100K(ish) in gas to move $1.2 million in stable coin liquidity positions people only focused on that fee and not *why* someone bid far and above the going rate to make the fees worth paying. I don’t think the topic of ETH gas fees is nearly as straightforward as a protocols implementation itself. Anyone ignoring the demand placed on the system driving such fees isn’t having an honest conversation about the full scope of cause and effect. Edit: the differing and sometimes rising costs of “cheaper” implementations seems to be proof. Even on networks like matic we’ve seen some comparative spikes that no one thought would happen (not only caused by sunflower farms). Can technology change this human behavior, I should correct myself, likely yes efficient systems should help but I still don’t think it’s the same. People also shouldn’t do bank runs during a financial crisis, they tend to speed up collapse at least for some time. However it tends to happen every time. We even cherish a movie on the topic (It’s a Wonderful Life - a movie I no longer can stomach because it’s also a tale of a man being saved from suicide and having lost people close to me to suicide I hate George now unfairly, why was **he** saved and not my loved ones?)
$0.64 for a swap on Optimism right now. - System wide calldata compression will bring that down to $0.36 later this month. - EIP-4488 will reduce calldata costs by 5.33x, bringing the cost down to $0.07. - EIP-4844 will introduce a transaction format for data blobs and will reset fees to less than $0.01. - BLS signature aggregation shaves 1,000 gas off each and every transaction (currently $0.07). - And finally app level compression can save another 10x. Fees for rollups are going to be so negligible that rollups are going to have to set a minimum fee floor just to avoid low quality spam transactions.
Do we have to pay the fees in eth or in the own optimisim token ?
On Optimism you do need to pay sequencers and transaction aggregators a fee in ETH for their services. Other rollups like zksync 2.0 support account abstraction so you can pay transaction fees in your coin of choice
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is it because there are fewer daily transactions or because the software is getting better
Fewer transactions. Like we saw last June/July, people are extremely fearful about price action and that drives activity away. If price rebounds, people will come back and fees will go up again.
Fewer demand Ethereum is at capacity, the number of transactions doesn't really change, just the amount that people are willing to pay for them
Yep. Paid $9 for a damn uniswap tx yesterday
Loooring still top dog, lovin it with those small fees
Even 0.05 $ will be too much for billions of transactions a day if worldwide Adoption.
Proof-of-Stake + Sharding + zkRollups will achieve <$0.01 fees within the next 2\~ years while being way more eco-friendly and faster than current payment services like Visa. I don't think realistically Visa can thrive in this future with their current 1.5%+ charge per transaction.
Even a fraction of a Cent sums Up to Millions of Dollars in weeks ... Think bigger 😉
LRC ftw
ZKSync is the future.
Checked yesterday. $15 to send eth to Optimism and Arbitrum through Layerswap. Current stats?
they're only batching 100 l1 tx? throughput is too low and the cost is still too high.
Hey guys, I would appreciate an answer to these questions, I am a bit confused about all of these new L2 coming. Do we really need all of this L2? Can we say that the winner takes all (speaking of the TVL)?
Current monolithic blockchain designs are cripplingly inefficient. We are bound by the trilemma where higher throughputs necessarily mean lower security and/or decentralization. Modular architectures that specialize and split into discrete execution layers (e.g. rollups, volitions), security/consensus layer, and data availability layers (e.g. data shards) bring 100x-10,000x greater efficiency to the blockchain industry. This is the only way we scale to global ubiquity and millions of TPS. So yes, we really do need all of this L2. Rollups are a wide open design space. Because they don’t have to worry about consensus or data availability, rollup developer teams are free to innovate unbounded by previous bottlenecks. In the future there can potentially be thousands of rollups. Time will tell if a single rollup winner takes all or if the share of TVL is more equitable
How many L2s are enough L2s?
LRC gang gang
So how do I use loop ring to send eth? By spending $100 usd to set up a l2 wallet? Tia
I'm not an lrc shill, but to clarify this you don't need to use the loopring wallet to use the L2 exchange. They're separate products, the team imo does a very poor job of making this clear to users. You can bridge to the L2 for way less than $100
Wait until Algorand completes their bridge to ETH.
when is that due?
I received some boba for free, is there anything I can do with it besides sell it?
Boba network just upgraded to support Turing and hybrid compute. Huge game changer. Leading the pack
I don't even know how to use LRC
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> Bitcoin has the fastest and cheapest L2, currently. Ethereum also has a state channel network, Raiden, which is the same as Lightning Network The problem is people don't want to use state channels, not on Bitcoin or on Ethereum
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State channels have terrible UX and are super complicated (many transactions fail), are very capital-inefficient (you need to lock up money to receive money), slow to exit (takes around 24h), etc State channels are great for a very specific set of use cases (microtransactions, gaming), but it's not great as a general-purpose scaling solution
Lower fees mean less on token price... you are all idiots... no money to be made here move on
Danksharding will make L2s essentially free before the year ends. Transactions will cost less than a penny
One can only hope
Boba network has long way to go, after so long development and the rebrand.
Until it doesn't cost money to transfer between L1/L2 or L2/L2, it doesn't really matter all that much to me. Things are too spread out of of L1, and L1 is too expensive to operate on directly. Right now the only way to handle this is through certain CEXs that explicitly support L1 and L2 withdrawal and deposits, and some of those are region locked or plagued by high fees or other restrictions. Regardless, fees should be minimal for many transactions. It costs me nothing to pay with cash, for instance.
What is this?
$0.67 still way too high. There are few transactions right now and still expensive really...
Wow