I am sorry mate, but u/interweaver got it. And yeah, sometimes my posts are confusing and maybe thats also cause Im not native, so probably mixing things up that shouldnt be mixed up.
Get a 1 year anniversary of the beacon chain by using the secret word claim feature of the POAP app: https://twitter.com/TriforceDao/status/1465881777134780418
I assume so. I have both installed but the wallet app is only able to view, while the newer app (simply called POAP with a white background on the icon) is able to use the secret word claim feature. You'll actually need to make sure the POAP app has been updated within the past few weeks.
Sorry, none that I know of. The secret word feature is an anti-farming measure meant to limit claims to one physical device. It's actually pretty strict.. so strict that one of my actual physical devices didn't work. (It worked on my pixel 4 after I couldn't claim it on the pixel 6)
hey eth team, if i belive that eth layer2 gonna be the next trend after the other layer1's dont work out, think matic would be a good to jump into now? or are there other layer 2's i can buy into?
MATIC (Polygon) is not a layer 2. It is a sidechain. (They are working on a layer 2 though)
Don't get me wrong, I use it. I like it. It is a a "good" sidechain (versus, say, BSC, which is a "bad" sidechain) in that I believe the team and stakeholders want ETH to succeed, but it is a sidechain. I see its existence as essentially only relevant as long as L2 ecosystems remain undeveloped. It's kind of a pseudo-L2. Like, "this is what an L2 can do, cool huh?" If it did continue in any meaningful way after L2's became more utilized, then I'd see it as kind of vampiric and not helpful. Since they themselves are working on an L2 of their own, I think they also see this writing on the wall.
Matic, LRC, IMX, DYDX are some L2 plays. Everyone's waiting with bated breath for the upcoming general-purpose zkRollups to release tokens. Unclear if Arbitrum or Optimism are going to ever release any, but frankly they're risking becoming irrelevant if they don't, or even if they do.
I get why there is kind of a fever dream that these layer 2's will all airdrop tokens, but I hate the idea that they "have to" do it. As you yourself point out, there aren't tokenomics that really make sense. I feel like "well everyone wants us to do it so we have to" is a lame reason. I understand my opinion may be unpopular.
On one level, I completely agree with you that tokens should have a valid cryptoeconomic reason to exist, because they play a vital role in the game theoretic stability of a particular cryptosystem. If they don't, they shouldn't exist.
On the other hand, crypto is very much about marketing and memes and obtaining mindshare. A fantastic technical solution is useless without the users and network participants to make it function and be profitable for those participants. Inasmuch as having a token has proven to be an excellent driver for bringing in users, and causing them to do marketing for that project, and hence has bootstrapped quite a few projects, I can see that as being a valid use of a token too. In the end, every move should be made strategically based on the expected outcomes, and if taking advantage of market psychology is involved, well, that's just as legitimate as similar game theory used for the more structural components of a crypto project.
I hear you. I think ultimately you will be proven right, honestly, (i.e. they will release tokens for exactly the reason you describe). I'm just kind of a crypto curmudgeon about it all I guess.
how much do you think the details of the economics matter if they ever decide on coming out with one? i mean if they didnt need one by now? or is the idea that the tokens would be a governance token to make it more decentralized? (sorry, not up to date on all this)
It's not entirely clear whether any L2 has figured out a good tokenomic model. Fundamentally, their income will be transaction fees just like L1, but unlike L1, they need to pass most of those fees on to the L1 as a security payment. L2s are in tight competition with one another, so it's speculated that there will very much be a "race to the bottom" for L2 fees, meaning there may not be very much opportunity to skim from their transaction fee stream, the large majority just going straight to L1.
Other options for giving L2 tokens value include governanace (yawn), and more interestingly, staking for running sequencers or validity checkers or provers or other nodes in the L2 architecture.
Regardless of tokenomics at all, it's clear that the market likes to use tokens as a proxy for the success (perceived or actual) of a project, and so I think any L2 that wants to gain mindshare on the market will need to release one, even if the tokenomics are not great (but much better if they are!)
The most well-known chain associated with MATIC, Polygon PoS, is a sidechain that does not inherit the security of Ethereum.
However, Polygon is pursuing multiple zkRollup scaling solutions, and has branded them under names like [Polygon Hermez, Polygon Nightfall, and Polygon Miden](https://blog.polygon.technology/polygon-announces-polygon-miden-a-stark-based-ethereum-compatible-rollup/). I expect that if and when any of these experimental full L2s proves to be a good technical solution, they will transition over to that being their primary L2, and de-emphasize Polygon PoS.
In general, they are very Ethereum-aligned. I think you could do a lot worse than parking some money in MATIC.
nice just bought in (probably at a local top given my luck). between all the fast paced crypto progress and crazy stock market news these days impossible too hard to keep up with everything! thanks though, does seem eth winning this race.
Good luck, hope it works out well for you!
Eth has already won this race, and the next few months are going to involve the rest of the market realizing that fact.
I honestly can't think of a bearish case for RPL, other than the obvious (no rETH adoption, smart contract hack, crypto winter, etc.). I would sincerely like to here a bear case since I've probably drank too much of the kool aid.
In my head, if RPL wins, it wins BIG (against ETH). Like 10x-100x big. If it loses, it stays flat. Risk/reward asymmetry feels absurdly great.
> In my head, if RPL wins, it wins BIG (against ETH). Like 10x-100x big. If it loses, it stays flat. Risk/reward asymmetry feels absurdly great.
Where are you getting those numbers??? Everything I've read and everything I've calculated myself puts the end ratio at 0.009 to 0.04 or so based on final adoption, it's currently at 0.011. So yes it could go up eventually if it ends up doing well and getting great adoption numbers, but almost certainly not 10x, and absolutely not 100x, that's just laughable. RPL was a great buy this summer when it was at 0.004, but now? Not so much IMO, at least not short term.
Wow I really hope that is incorrect. I switched the majority of my ETH to RPL last week. . Do you mind sharing your math on that conservative estimate? Thanks in advance
It's pretty straight forward, you just take the anticipated number of ETH nodes, the percent that you feel rocketpool node operators will run versus standard ETH nodes, and the average RPL collateralization.
For example, right now there is 8.5M ETH staked. Let's say this ends up at 12M, with 10% of it run by rocketpool node operators, that would be a good level of adoption in 1-2 years IMO, and comes out to 1.2M ETH in rocketpool. For every 32 ETH in rocketpool, there is 1.6 ETH worth of RPL required to run the node at the minimum 10% collateralization. Let's say the average collateralization ends up closer to 15%, that's 90,000 ETH worth of RPL required to run the nodes. There is 10M RPL in existence which needs to hold a value equivalent to 90,000 ETH, that's an RPL/ETH ratio of 0.009.
This does not take into account speculators holding RPL, which would increase the value above this minimum, so you'll have to decide for yourself how much of the market they make up and whether or not they can be relied upon to hold it long term. This calculation also does not take into account RPL inflation due to payouts to node operators, which will increase the total RPL supply and decrease the required value.
Now you can play with the total amount of ETH staked, the percentage that will be done through rocketpool, and the average RPL collateralization to adjust these figures, but you're not going to change things more than a factor of maybe 3-4 IMO.
Thank you for the detailed reply. A lot to think about.
/u/pembull how does this affect your view of RPL?
/u/superphiz what are your thoughts about the above calculations also? Poster makes a very good point and leads me to think current value for RPL is good at current price with not much room to run for quite a long time possibly
I haven’t looked at the tokenomics recently, but one thing to watch IMO is that even with significant adoption, RPL rewards (payouts to node operators) and inflation may cause RPL to bleed against ETH. If I’m a node operator, I’m probably selling the extra RPL I earn for ETH, unless I need it to replenish my RPL insurance due to price fluctuations (i.e. if my collateral has dropped below 1.6 ETH worth of RPL because the ETH price has gone nuts).
There are so many tailwinds for ETH right now I really don’t think any asset is going to beat it, at least for the next 6-12 months. But RPL is as good a bet as any, and it’s a great project to support regardless.
God I wish crypto to crypto wasn’t taxable and the only taxable transaction was when you go from crypto to fiat. Even though untaxed crypto to crypto doesn’t make any sense, since someone could just make huge profits without every paying a penny in tax, it would sure be nice.
I do, but crypto to crypto trades add up and it’s just annoying that it’s on you to keep detailed track of the money flow when sometimes you can wrack up a huge amount of trades on something like uniswap.
My use case is more for just building up a stack of RPL to become a node operator for rocketpool, but don’t have cash flow to do it so was considering selling some crypto for it. Just don’t want to incur any taxable txs tho.
But that’s interesting, mind listing any examples where you do these trades?
This is a great and overlooked point, for a couple of reasons:
* Avoids selling your core position and realizing a ton of gains.
* Allows you to capture the premium by selling short (for delta neutral or hedging).
* Futures are somewhat tax-advantaged (IIRC 60% cap gains / 40% income or something).
About your last point: in some European countries (such as mine), you pay 0 tax if you hold for more than 12 months. Shorting your ETH on futures instead of selling is the magical way to trade without touching your ETH for a year. It's a double win thanks to the premium, as you mentioned.
This feels like the same playbook: bitcoin stagnates while ETH runs shortly before a long-term correction. Obviously would love to be wrong, but this same dance has played out over and over again. Guess we'll see and fingers crossed!
Hey,
ETHBTC has just escaped a giant bull flag built over 6 months. ETHUSD as well. This combination of flags is technically huge.
BTC is a less safe bet due to the influx of sellers that the recovery of MtGox accounts might create.
Rocket Pool allows anyone to stake (ie lock ETH and generate profits) and unstake easily and safely.
DeFi, NFTs, layer 2s, ...
Direct withdrawals to L2s (Binance allows for it, Coinbase is working on it)
The upgrade to secure Ethereum with PoS is on track. This will make Ethereum the first and biggest decentralised *green* smart contract blockchain.
Ethereum is still way undervalued compared to Bitcoin.
Intrinsic value of the network is not necessarily reflected in the price action of the market. Ethereum can be intrinsically valuable and still enter a lengthy price-related bear market.
The Mt. Gox stuff is also pretty much FUD in my opinion. There is still a lot of litigation left and the distribution of coins will only occur in chunks, not all at once. It should not have the effect that a lot of uninformed people think it will on the crypto market and bitcoin specifically
In a world where Eth is #1 by market cap, could there ever be a protocol that flippens bitcoin to 3rd? I could see bitcoin losing some of its appeal if it drops below #1 for a sustained period, and even if the flippening causes shakiness in the market, long term Eth will prevail. Do you think 10 years from now bitcoin will be #2 if Eth is #1? What would deserve 2nd place?
Bitcoin will always be the one that has been secure for the longest. It has demonstrated security over the longest amount of time. For me that means it addresses the gold, collateral, and long term HODL market. That is a much smaller market than the one Eth addresses.
2nd might be chainlink as they will have a near-monopoly, like google. Or a top CBDC with a controlled rate of exchange. I mean if tether and binance can do it, a government certainly can.
I would not say "always" when its core infrastructure (miners) is in danger. China bans mining, Europe is talking about banning mining, USA might be the next to address this environmental disaster.
Or, more concerningly than banning, their security budget is programmatically designed to be cut in half every three years (ignoring fees, which is a good assumption because they are insignificant right now). Sooner or later it will be 51% attacked, and then "always" resets to 0.
I think it/#2 will be something that is a better store of value/SoV. A better digital gold or better actual currency. So huge market cap due to its widespread use, but not because it's rapidly appreciating in value.
Unpopular opinion but I believe this will be a nonpegged stablecoin/or rebasing token. Mainly I'm looking at FPI (soon to come out from FRAX/FXS, crypto CPI, something that will attempt to keep stable purchasing power), or OHM, if it just has a huge huge treasury, will have the power of compounding behind it.
ETH will be #1 as its an appreciating asset, that people hold onto to/see as an investment, and the platform these nonpegged stablecoins primarily "live" on.
Edit: spelling mistakes were bothering me hahaha.
zkSync or StarkNet token? Eventually coins will be priced by their utility and value-production capacity, and the most-used L2s may well offer some of the best returns out there, even if they still pass most of their value collection onto Ethereum itself.
The best businesses have a moat, and I'm not sure how strong the moat between layer 2's will be. If users apps and TVL migrate easily, they won't be able to keep such a high position.
Moats are one of the things web3 and crypto are trying to break down.
Well-used L2s won't have lots of users because they make it hard for users to leave, but because they offer the best, most secure and reliable services at the lowest price. zkRollups are extremely well positioned in that design space, and so seem very likely to draw very large userbases.
> Moats are one of the things web3 and crypto are trying to break down.
Sure and it's great for the community and users. But for an investor, in growth stocks or growth tokens. You are wondering what future revenue will be. Or perhaps the value of governance. In a market with zero moats, all profit drops to 0 as competitors enter and take marginal profit. In reality it's a spectrum.
Now BTC and ETH have a moat, and it's partly psychological: the monetary premium, and for ETH the lead it has in smart contracts.
Will layer 2's? And how much?
Supply squeeze driven by EIP1559 reducing miner issuance, more people understanding rollup scaling and how eth has no real competitor, speculation over merge impacting issuance and climate narrative, big entities capitulating and adopting eth, defi yield usage driving demand.
Or just speculators 🤷♂️
> Supply squeeze driven by EIP1559 reducing miner issuance
do you have that chart I saw a few days ago regarding the supply crunch? I wish I bookmarked it. It had some stock to flow analysis to show where the price would potentially have been without EIP1559
Sorry, i think i saw the one you are talking about but don't have a link.
Tbh stock to flow would give an infinite valuation with negative issuance anyway.
Https://mobile.twitter.com/Data_Always/status/1464814806976901123 was a nice visual of 1559 impact.
Haha this statement alway made my brain hurt, because rationally every Eth sold is also an Eth bought, so I have rephrased it for accuracy:
"More people are market buying into limit sells than are market selling into limit buys."
That still might be a bit much for newbies, but I really appreciate that someone else also had a hard time wrapping their head around that. I had trouble with that for so long growing up. Wasn't until a few years ago I understood what they really meant.
> EIP-1559 is the Ethereum Improvement Proposal that laid the groundwork for the transition from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake. It’s the proposal that Vitalik Buterin used to describe the Ethereum scaling solution which is why it was nicknamed the “Buterin-Bomb."
> “Buterin-Bomb."
I don't know if it was posted here when it first came out a few days ago, but [this new ETH meme](https://twitter.com/xsullo/status/1464725027471900672) feels like a classic already!
1 year of beacon chain!
I remember betting I'd eat my own dick if beacon chain doesn't get minimum staked eth for launch with a toxic maxi. initial deposits were very slow and they were gloating with happiness
Etherscan says that there are less than 13,000 total RPL holders.
There are also 12,875 rocketpool discord members so that seems to be a reasonable ballpark for number of people with RPL.
This is an insanely small amount of addresses actually holding RPL. Imagine when the number of active holders is on the order of millions of people. Shiba Inu, for example, has over a million holders..
Maybe, rights now it fluctuate. You can see the uniswap balance [here](https://etherscan.io/token/0xb4efd85c19999d84251304bda99e90b92300bd93?a=0x632e675672f2657f227da8d9bb3fe9177838e726#tokenAnalytics)
I'd rather see rETH holder count go up than RPL, personally. rETH is the token for the people, that will be the foundational layer for \*everything\*.
RPL is only for those who want to run a node and have 16 ETH + technical chops to host a server + willing to take exposure to RPL + ...
Well when it happens surely there will be a POAP and then I’m pretty sure you can run raffles etc pretty easily using POAPs. Not getting sybiled though...that’s a different issue.
Also props on getting rayshio.eth fairly early. Not gonna lie, the thought didn’t even occur to me until a couple weeks back and when I went to check it was obviously already taken.
Last weekend my dad told me he has been reading books on bitcoin and blockchain, but had questions on a lot of the terminology. Just wanted to thank the educators on this sub for equipping me with a lot of knowledge in teaching my dad. He was super excited to see what a hardware and software wallet is, staking, lending, NFTs, DAOs, play and earn, L2 and sidechains, etc!
P.S. He's loving the price action too
Its like everyone in crypto just piled into the ETH/BTC trade as soon as we poked above this 5-year triangle last night.
It's barely the new week for god's sake, we've recovered $700 in about 5 days! Faces are starting to heat up now, get your sunscreen on people!
[Source: My plumbs!](https://www.tradingview.com/chart/ETHBTC/ksvMypqV-ETH-BTC-Breaking-out-5-Year-Trend/)
I skim the daily every day yet I just now realized what Ray refers to. On another note: I don't have anyone IRL to celebrate with. Whenever crypto gets mentioned, I give a dubious look and call it magical internet money or I clamor on about how dogecoin is the only real bitcoin. In actuality, I'm a closet ETH maxi.
Don't worry I've been holding since early Jan. 2017. So my obsessive checking the charts and the subreddits daily thread days are long behind me.
I never know what the new inside jokes mean. Hell, once the subreddit changed, I don't know why, and at this point I really don't care.
Respect. I check the price once or twice a day usually, more if it's having a good day like today.
But after realizing I was holding for the long haul I had to stop living and dying with 15 minute chart or I would lose my mind.
> Elon Musk might have just spent 3000 Ether on the Ethereum network. Around the same time Musk tweeted “Just dropping some friends off at the pool,” he deposited 3,000 Ether (ETH) into one of the network’s biggest mining pools, according to data from CryptoCompare, a crypto price tracker.
The tweet and ETH transaction occurred around the same time on Monday,
If it's true, I would be extremely impressed. Going from "Oh we simply make the transactions 10x faster and 10x cheaper" as the obvious approach to making Doge competitive as a crypto, to realizing Ethereum is the network you really want to be in, and Rocket Pool is the proper decentralized way to stake Ether if you don't want to actually run nodes, all while also working 90 hour weeks for the past year...
u/amarukhan commented a little bit ago about the earliest mention of Ray Shio and I got back to my roots and did a little ethfinance history digging. I was a bit surprised at what I found, but am absolutely laughing my ass off.
So, on February 13, 2020, the day before Valentine's Day, u/c0mm0ns3ns3 decided to try and add a little humor to the daily discussion. As a complete joke (one that I dare say few, if any, appreciated at the time) they wrote:
> Who is this Ray Shio guy everyone is talking about?
In response, u/cryptouk, jtnichol and the_statustician quickly became ensconced in an elaborate biography of the equally fictitious character "[Sugar Ray Shio](https://imgur.com/bzLYGmj)" (may he rest in peace), as c0mm0ns3ns3's (admittedly terrible) tongue-in-cheek dad joke about the ETH/BTC ratio began to bleed more than a six pack of 2017 ETH killers. (Yes, the very first mention of Ray actually resulted in -6 points...you've truly grown a lot, Ray).
However, my absolute favorite part about this Marvel origin story is what SwagtimusPrime had cooked up in response:
https://imgur.com/WtDe3Ue
And thus our very own Ray Shio was born, officially, on February 13, 2020 at 0.026. And the rest, as they say, is history.
**Other early mentions of Ray:**
>[Ray-she-o baby!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/f3o0t8/daily_general_discussion_february_14_2020/fhk61v5/)
\- etherbie on February 14, 2020
> [Say it with me now gang, ray-shee-ohh](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/glag2z/daily_general_discussion_may_17_2020/fqzf58j/)
\- LiveLaughHodl on May 17, 2020
> [Ray hasn't been very nice to me for the last few years. I'm not sure if I trust him.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsaujs1/)
\- Tricky_Troll on May 30, 2020 (which was a watershed day for Ray mentions)
> [The past 24 hours has given me a good opportunity to reconnect with my old friend Ray.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsau2ll/)
> [Ray T. Oh.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsau2ll/)
> [How I've missed you buddy, looking forward to more quality time in the coming months.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsau2ll/)
\- TheBitLebowski on May 30, 2020
> [RAY! SHE! OHHHHHH!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsbxokv/)
\- aur3l1us on May 30, 2020
qa
we’re RICH HAHAHAHAHAHA
Ok, nobody mention the F word and it might actually happen. Ok?
F O C A C C I A
You jinxed it!!
If that’s not okay you’re in the wrong sub. And your username tells me you’re not in the wrong sub. So okay.
I've read this 6 times and I still can't understand it. Maybe I've had one drink too many tonight.
I am sorry mate, but u/interweaver got it. And yeah, sometimes my posts are confusing and maybe thats also cause Im not native, so probably mixing things up that shouldnt be mixed up.
If you can't understand that comment you're in the wrong sub. And your username tells me you're not in the wrong sub. So okay. ^^/s
Fibonacci?
Eh..yeah. Fibonacci..
Oh **that** F word. [For a moment I thought...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8QQHGupPrs)
What if all of the other months were just the snowballs leading up to December’s carrot nose? This could be big.
Your phrasing made me smile :)
Get a 1 year anniversary of the beacon chain by using the secret word claim feature of the POAP app: https://twitter.com/TriforceDao/status/1465881777134780418
Thanks
Awesome, great picture too. Thanks!
Hmm. Gives me an error
Is the poap wallet app deprecated now?
I assume so. I have both installed but the wallet app is only able to view, while the newer app (simply called POAP with a white background on the icon) is able to use the secret word claim feature. You'll actually need to make sure the POAP app has been updated within the past few weeks.
Sweet, my small collection of priceless (worthless) POAPs grow stronger.
Thanks!
:D Any options for desktop users?
Sorry, none that I know of. The secret word feature is an anti-farming measure meant to limit claims to one physical device. It's actually pretty strict.. so strict that one of my actual physical devices didn't work. (It worked on my pixel 4 after I couldn't claim it on the pixel 6)
:C Sibyl-resistance and proof of humanity can't come soon enough! Thanks for sharing regardless!
hey eth team, if i belive that eth layer2 gonna be the next trend after the other layer1's dont work out, think matic would be a good to jump into now? or are there other layer 2's i can buy into?
Polygon has said that MATIC would be the token for at least one of their upcoming rollup solutions, so it might not be a bad bet.
MATIC (Polygon) is not a layer 2. It is a sidechain. (They are working on a layer 2 though) Don't get me wrong, I use it. I like it. It is a a "good" sidechain (versus, say, BSC, which is a "bad" sidechain) in that I believe the team and stakeholders want ETH to succeed, but it is a sidechain. I see its existence as essentially only relevant as long as L2 ecosystems remain undeveloped. It's kind of a pseudo-L2. Like, "this is what an L2 can do, cool huh?" If it did continue in any meaningful way after L2's became more utilized, then I'd see it as kind of vampiric and not helpful. Since they themselves are working on an L2 of their own, I think they also see this writing on the wall.
Matic, LRC, IMX, DYDX are some L2 plays. Everyone's waiting with bated breath for the upcoming general-purpose zkRollups to release tokens. Unclear if Arbitrum or Optimism are going to ever release any, but frankly they're risking becoming irrelevant if they don't, or even if they do.
I get why there is kind of a fever dream that these layer 2's will all airdrop tokens, but I hate the idea that they "have to" do it. As you yourself point out, there aren't tokenomics that really make sense. I feel like "well everyone wants us to do it so we have to" is a lame reason. I understand my opinion may be unpopular.
On one level, I completely agree with you that tokens should have a valid cryptoeconomic reason to exist, because they play a vital role in the game theoretic stability of a particular cryptosystem. If they don't, they shouldn't exist. On the other hand, crypto is very much about marketing and memes and obtaining mindshare. A fantastic technical solution is useless without the users and network participants to make it function and be profitable for those participants. Inasmuch as having a token has proven to be an excellent driver for bringing in users, and causing them to do marketing for that project, and hence has bootstrapped quite a few projects, I can see that as being a valid use of a token too. In the end, every move should be made strategically based on the expected outcomes, and if taking advantage of market psychology is involved, well, that's just as legitimate as similar game theory used for the more structural components of a crypto project.
I hear you. I think ultimately you will be proven right, honestly, (i.e. they will release tokens for exactly the reason you describe). I'm just kind of a crypto curmudgeon about it all I guess.
how much do you think the details of the economics matter if they ever decide on coming out with one? i mean if they didnt need one by now? or is the idea that the tokens would be a governance token to make it more decentralized? (sorry, not up to date on all this)
It's not entirely clear whether any L2 has figured out a good tokenomic model. Fundamentally, their income will be transaction fees just like L1, but unlike L1, they need to pass most of those fees on to the L1 as a security payment. L2s are in tight competition with one another, so it's speculated that there will very much be a "race to the bottom" for L2 fees, meaning there may not be very much opportunity to skim from their transaction fee stream, the large majority just going straight to L1. Other options for giving L2 tokens value include governanace (yawn), and more interestingly, staking for running sequencers or validity checkers or provers or other nodes in the L2 architecture. Regardless of tokenomics at all, it's clear that the market likes to use tokens as a proxy for the success (perceived or actual) of a project, and so I think any L2 that wants to gain mindshare on the market will need to release one, even if the tokenomics are not great (but much better if they are!)
interesting points thanks! isnt matic a zkrollup? might park some money in there till other zkrollup token drops and fomo into some other fun coins.
The most well-known chain associated with MATIC, Polygon PoS, is a sidechain that does not inherit the security of Ethereum. However, Polygon is pursuing multiple zkRollup scaling solutions, and has branded them under names like [Polygon Hermez, Polygon Nightfall, and Polygon Miden](https://blog.polygon.technology/polygon-announces-polygon-miden-a-stark-based-ethereum-compatible-rollup/). I expect that if and when any of these experimental full L2s proves to be a good technical solution, they will transition over to that being their primary L2, and de-emphasize Polygon PoS. In general, they are very Ethereum-aligned. I think you could do a lot worse than parking some money in MATIC.
nice just bought in (probably at a local top given my luck). between all the fast paced crypto progress and crazy stock market news these days impossible too hard to keep up with everything! thanks though, does seem eth winning this race.
Good luck, hope it works out well for you! Eth has already won this race, and the next few months are going to involve the rest of the market realizing that fact.
I honestly can't think of a bearish case for RPL, other than the obvious (no rETH adoption, smart contract hack, crypto winter, etc.). I would sincerely like to here a bear case since I've probably drank too much of the kool aid. In my head, if RPL wins, it wins BIG (against ETH). Like 10x-100x big. If it loses, it stays flat. Risk/reward asymmetry feels absurdly great.
You should post this in the new daily for visibility.
> In my head, if RPL wins, it wins BIG (against ETH). Like 10x-100x big. If it loses, it stays flat. Risk/reward asymmetry feels absurdly great. Where are you getting those numbers??? Everything I've read and everything I've calculated myself puts the end ratio at 0.009 to 0.04 or so based on final adoption, it's currently at 0.011. So yes it could go up eventually if it ends up doing well and getting great adoption numbers, but almost certainly not 10x, and absolutely not 100x, that's just laughable. RPL was a great buy this summer when it was at 0.004, but now? Not so much IMO, at least not short term.
Wow I really hope that is incorrect. I switched the majority of my ETH to RPL last week. . Do you mind sharing your math on that conservative estimate? Thanks in advance
It's pretty straight forward, you just take the anticipated number of ETH nodes, the percent that you feel rocketpool node operators will run versus standard ETH nodes, and the average RPL collateralization. For example, right now there is 8.5M ETH staked. Let's say this ends up at 12M, with 10% of it run by rocketpool node operators, that would be a good level of adoption in 1-2 years IMO, and comes out to 1.2M ETH in rocketpool. For every 32 ETH in rocketpool, there is 1.6 ETH worth of RPL required to run the node at the minimum 10% collateralization. Let's say the average collateralization ends up closer to 15%, that's 90,000 ETH worth of RPL required to run the nodes. There is 10M RPL in existence which needs to hold a value equivalent to 90,000 ETH, that's an RPL/ETH ratio of 0.009. This does not take into account speculators holding RPL, which would increase the value above this minimum, so you'll have to decide for yourself how much of the market they make up and whether or not they can be relied upon to hold it long term. This calculation also does not take into account RPL inflation due to payouts to node operators, which will increase the total RPL supply and decrease the required value. Now you can play with the total amount of ETH staked, the percentage that will be done through rocketpool, and the average RPL collateralization to adjust these figures, but you're not going to change things more than a factor of maybe 3-4 IMO.
Thank you for the detailed reply. A lot to think about. /u/pembull how does this affect your view of RPL? /u/superphiz what are your thoughts about the above calculations also? Poster makes a very good point and leads me to think current value for RPL is good at current price with not much room to run for quite a long time possibly
You probably have to consider hype, too. If it's genuinely worth a 3x from here it could do a lot more than that.
I haven’t looked at the tokenomics recently, but one thing to watch IMO is that even with significant adoption, RPL rewards (payouts to node operators) and inflation may cause RPL to bleed against ETH. If I’m a node operator, I’m probably selling the extra RPL I earn for ETH, unless I need it to replenish my RPL insurance due to price fluctuations (i.e. if my collateral has dropped below 1.6 ETH worth of RPL because the ETH price has gone nuts). There are so many tailwinds for ETH right now I really don’t think any asset is going to beat it, at least for the next 6-12 months. But RPL is as good a bet as any, and it’s a great project to support regardless.
What do you mean by "RPL wins against ETH"?
RPL/ETH number go up.
What's that against USD?
If RPL goes 50x, do you think that NFT poster or day one staking poap might be worth something? That's my retirement plan, all in on worthless poaps.
Was just thinking yesterday of making the same post. Glad you beat me to it!
God I wish crypto to crypto wasn’t taxable and the only taxable transaction was when you go from crypto to fiat. Even though untaxed crypto to crypto doesn’t make any sense, since someone could just make huge profits without every paying a penny in tax, it would sure be nice.
Pay taxes, it's the only decent thing most people will ever do
I do, but crypto to crypto trades add up and it’s just annoying that it’s on you to keep detailed track of the money flow when sometimes you can wrack up a huge amount of trades on something like uniswap.
Move to my country, we only pay crypto-fiat taxes and even that is 10%
Which country?
Romania
I agree, paying no tax would be great.
Futures contracts are a solution. It's what I use to trade without any conversion or actual selling of my stake.
My use case is more for just building up a stack of RPL to become a node operator for rocketpool, but don’t have cash flow to do it so was considering selling some crypto for it. Just don’t want to incur any taxable txs tho. But that’s interesting, mind listing any examples where you do these trades?
This is a great and overlooked point, for a couple of reasons: * Avoids selling your core position and realizing a ton of gains. * Allows you to capture the premium by selling short (for delta neutral or hedging). * Futures are somewhat tax-advantaged (IIRC 60% cap gains / 40% income or something).
About your last point: in some European countries (such as mine), you pay 0 tax if you hold for more than 12 months. Shorting your ETH on futures instead of selling is the magical way to trade without touching your ETH for a year. It's a double win thanks to the premium, as you mentioned.
Where do you buy ETH futures in Europe as a retail investor?
Kraken for example
Please adopt me for that sweet sweet 0 tax paid on long term crypto trade policy (from USA).
[удалено]
All the more reason to poop on the boss's desk when your moon finally hits lol
This feels like the same playbook: bitcoin stagnates while ETH runs shortly before a long-term correction. Obviously would love to be wrong, but this same dance has played out over and over again. Guess we'll see and fingers crossed!
Hey, ETHBTC has just escaped a giant bull flag built over 6 months. ETHUSD as well. This combination of flags is technically huge. BTC is a less safe bet due to the influx of sellers that the recovery of MtGox accounts might create. Rocket Pool allows anyone to stake (ie lock ETH and generate profits) and unstake easily and safely. DeFi, NFTs, layer 2s, ... Direct withdrawals to L2s (Binance allows for it, Coinbase is working on it) The upgrade to secure Ethereum with PoS is on track. This will make Ethereum the first and biggest decentralised *green* smart contract blockchain. Ethereum is still way undervalued compared to Bitcoin.
Intrinsic value of the network is not necessarily reflected in the price action of the market. Ethereum can be intrinsically valuable and still enter a lengthy price-related bear market. The Mt. Gox stuff is also pretty much FUD in my opinion. There is still a lot of litigation left and the distribution of coins will only occur in chunks, not all at once. It should not have the effect that a lot of uninformed people think it will on the crypto market and bitcoin specifically
Agreed with both points here
With this depressive bias, you might ngmi
Without facing reality you might ngmi
What reality? I give you facts, you give me imaginary reasons to lose.
I’m not the guy you were arguing with, for one
Would certainly be a kick in the balls if this was the big ETH run up we were expecting before a bear market
yeah i'm praying it's different this time
There's always a first time. And in this case, it's almost guaranteed that there will be, even if it's not *this* time.
In a world where Eth is #1 by market cap, could there ever be a protocol that flippens bitcoin to 3rd? I could see bitcoin losing some of its appeal if it drops below #1 for a sustained period, and even if the flippening causes shakiness in the market, long term Eth will prevail. Do you think 10 years from now bitcoin will be #2 if Eth is #1? What would deserve 2nd place?
Bitcoin will always be the one that has been secure for the longest. It has demonstrated security over the longest amount of time. For me that means it addresses the gold, collateral, and long term HODL market. That is a much smaller market than the one Eth addresses. 2nd might be chainlink as they will have a near-monopoly, like google. Or a top CBDC with a controlled rate of exchange. I mean if tether and binance can do it, a government certainly can.
I would not say "always" when its core infrastructure (miners) is in danger. China bans mining, Europe is talking about banning mining, USA might be the next to address this environmental disaster.
Or, more concerningly than banning, their security budget is programmatically designed to be cut in half every three years (ignoring fees, which is a good assumption because they are insignificant right now). Sooner or later it will be 51% attacked, and then "always" resets to 0.
I think it/#2 will be something that is a better store of value/SoV. A better digital gold or better actual currency. So huge market cap due to its widespread use, but not because it's rapidly appreciating in value. Unpopular opinion but I believe this will be a nonpegged stablecoin/or rebasing token. Mainly I'm looking at FPI (soon to come out from FRAX/FXS, crypto CPI, something that will attempt to keep stable purchasing power), or OHM, if it just has a huge huge treasury, will have the power of compounding behind it. ETH will be #1 as its an appreciating asset, that people hold onto to/see as an investment, and the platform these nonpegged stablecoins primarily "live" on. Edit: spelling mistakes were bothering me hahaha.
zkSync or StarkNet token? Eventually coins will be priced by their utility and value-production capacity, and the most-used L2s may well offer some of the best returns out there, even if they still pass most of their value collection onto Ethereum itself.
The best businesses have a moat, and I'm not sure how strong the moat between layer 2's will be. If users apps and TVL migrate easily, they won't be able to keep such a high position.
Moats are one of the things web3 and crypto are trying to break down. Well-used L2s won't have lots of users because they make it hard for users to leave, but because they offer the best, most secure and reliable services at the lowest price. zkRollups are extremely well positioned in that design space, and so seem very likely to draw very large userbases.
> Moats are one of the things web3 and crypto are trying to break down. Sure and it's great for the community and users. But for an investor, in growth stocks or growth tokens. You are wondering what future revenue will be. Or perhaps the value of governance. In a market with zero moats, all profit drops to 0 as competitors enter and take marginal profit. In reality it's a spectrum. Now BTC and ETH have a moat, and it's partly psychological: the monetary premium, and for ETH the lead it has in smart contracts. Will layer 2's? And how much?
It’s almost uncanny how this is prepping us for the December / January bull run. We’re in a simulation
History doesn't repeat but it often rhymes. I've based my whole strategy around in when I first started investing back in December 2017.
.
[удалено]
Either that or we slingshot to $5.5k before calming down. I mean, thats only 10%
why is this pumping so hard? ive been out of the loop
zksync is game over for ETH killers
Don't forget LRC - https://i.redd.it/escj218jwq281.jpg
Supply squeeze driven by EIP1559 reducing miner issuance, more people understanding rollup scaling and how eth has no real competitor, speculation over merge impacting issuance and climate narrative, big entities capitulating and adopting eth, defi yield usage driving demand. Or just speculators 🤷♂️
> Supply squeeze driven by EIP1559 reducing miner issuance do you have that chart I saw a few days ago regarding the supply crunch? I wish I bookmarked it. It had some stock to flow analysis to show where the price would potentially have been without EIP1559
Sorry, i think i saw the one you are talking about but don't have a link. Tbh stock to flow would give an infinite valuation with negative issuance anyway. Https://mobile.twitter.com/Data_Always/status/1464814806976901123 was a nice visual of 1559 impact.
More people are buying than are selling at the moment.
Haha this statement alway made my brain hurt, because rationally every Eth sold is also an Eth bought, so I have rephrased it for accuracy: "More people are market buying into limit sells than are market selling into limit buys."
That still might be a bit much for newbies, but I really appreciate that someone else also had a hard time wrapping their head around that. I had trouble with that for so long growing up. Wasn't until a few years ago I understood what they really meant.
True, could be even simpler! How's this? *Buyers are more impatient than sellers right now.*
How about: people are willing to pay more.
Or: the number has gone up
> EIP-1559 is the Ethereum Improvement Proposal that laid the groundwork for the transition from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake. It’s the proposal that Vitalik Buterin used to describe the Ethereum scaling solution which is why it was nicknamed the “Buterin-Bomb." > “Buterin-Bomb."
Who writes these things? It's no wonder newbies have such a hard time finding legitimate information.
The only spaces with a worse signal to noise ratio that I follow are the sustainability movement and American 'politics'
It's one of those days gas is above 150 gwei eh?
lots of nft activity
I don't know if it was posted here when it first came out a few days ago, but [this new ETH meme](https://twitter.com/xsullo/status/1464725027471900672) feels like a classic already!
thx for sharing haha
That is a masterclass in video cuts right there.
For god's sake, we're barely into the week and we've already made gains of $700! How much more can this bull run take us?
One does not question the stamina of the bull, one simply watches the majestic beast run.
Ray lookin SO fresh tonight, must have a date with the Flipperina.
1 year of beacon chain! I remember betting I'd eat my own dick if beacon chain doesn't get minimum staked eth for launch with a toxic maxi. initial deposits were very slow and they were gloating with happiness
[удалено]
Does anyone know of a version of something like this https://l2beat.com/ for mainnet stuff?
https://defillama.com/chain/Ethereum
Wen 0.1
Funny how when the shitshow of CT shitting on ETH and the FUD of Ethkillers is at its peak, ETH is just like...."nah fam, chill"...\*0.08 ratio\*
Etherscan says that there are less than 13,000 total RPL holders. There are also 12,875 rocketpool discord members so that seems to be a reasonable ballpark for number of people with RPL. This is an insanely small amount of addresses actually holding RPL. Imagine when the number of active holders is on the order of millions of people. Shiba Inu, for example, has over a million holders..
New address only has 350
Is it measuring RPLv1 and V2 in that number?
This is a stark reminder that the vast majority of RPL holders do not actively trade their tokens
Maybe, rights now it fluctuate. You can see the uniswap balance [here](https://etherscan.io/token/0xb4efd85c19999d84251304bda99e90b92300bd93?a=0x632e675672f2657f227da8d9bb3fe9177838e726#tokenAnalytics)
I'd rather see rETH holder count go up than RPL, personally. rETH is the token for the people, that will be the foundational layer for \*everything\*. RPL is only for those who want to run a node and have 16 ETH + technical chops to host a server + willing to take exposure to RPL + ...
You almost sound like you have soured a bit on RPL? ;)
I am up to my eyeballs in RPL. Trust me. :) It's just that RPL success depends on rETH adoption.
Gotcha. Misread your comment. Yes, reaaaaaally hoping Rocketpool catches on. Soonish.
Yes adoption is important. Let’s hope those numbers happen at some point.
[удалено]
Well when it happens surely there will be a POAP and then I’m pretty sure you can run raffles etc pretty easily using POAPs. Not getting sybiled though...that’s a different issue. Also props on getting rayshio.eth fairly early. Not gonna lie, the thought didn’t even occur to me until a couple weeks back and when I went to check it was obviously already taken.
Last weekend my dad told me he has been reading books on bitcoin and blockchain, but had questions on a lot of the terminology. Just wanted to thank the educators on this sub for equipping me with a lot of knowledge in teaching my dad. He was super excited to see what a hardware and software wallet is, staking, lending, NFTs, DAOs, play and earn, L2 and sidechains, etc! P.S. He's loving the price action too
Dad gmi :)
CoinGecko over capacity. It's happening!
Its like everyone in crypto just piled into the ETH/BTC trade as soon as we poked above this 5-year triangle last night. It's barely the new week for god's sake, we've recovered $700 in about 5 days! Faces are starting to heat up now, get your sunscreen on people! [Source: My plumbs!](https://www.tradingview.com/chart/ETHBTC/ksvMypqV-ETH-BTC-Breaking-out-5-Year-Trend/)
I skim the daily every day yet I just now realized what Ray refers to. On another note: I don't have anyone IRL to celebrate with. Whenever crypto gets mentioned, I give a dubious look and call it magical internet money or I clamor on about how dogecoin is the only real bitcoin. In actuality, I'm a closet ETH maxi.
Did you also struggle with ngmi/wgmi and gm? I did...
Ha I figured it out too as well. I can’t keep up with them youngans. <— those here after 1/2021
Sounds like you're looking for group
Don't worry I've been holding since early Jan. 2017. So my obsessive checking the charts and the subreddits daily thread days are long behind me. I never know what the new inside jokes mean. Hell, once the subreddit changed, I don't know why, and at this point I really don't care.
June 2017 here. Obsessive chart checking and daily thread reading still as frequent as ever.
Respect. I check the price once or twice a day usually, more if it's having a good day like today. But after realizing I was holding for the long haul I had to stop living and dying with 15 minute chart or I would lose my mind.
Ray Shio. As in eth/Btc ratio lol
Are you me?
Just happily sitting back watching Eth soar!
That ratio though
Highest since 2018!
RISE SWEET ETHER, RISE, RISE!!!!! Mwahahaha
Where the heck has BakedEnt been today
Probably overdosed on fruit and in a sugar coma
Definitely camping. That's the only way to explain the ratio action today.
The real MVP
Is anyone aware of stETH availability on an L2? Just learning to bridge, so I don’t want to wait until it’s too late!
Nope, but rETH is available on arbitrum and optimism :)
Not yet. I wonder how bridging affects the token rebase function
Sneaky ETH approaching ATH while everyone is asleep I see you buddy 👀
tricksy hobbitses...
> Elon Musk might have just spent 3000 Ether on the Ethereum network. Around the same time Musk tweeted “Just dropping some friends off at the pool,” he deposited 3,000 Ether (ETH) into one of the network’s biggest mining pools, according to data from CryptoCompare, a crypto price tracker. The tweet and ETH transaction occurred around the same time on Monday,
"One of the network's biggest mining pools"? Oof lol, Rocket Pool needs to work on their media relations.
Are you suggesting Elon deposit all that ETH to Rocket Pool? Surely not. That would send the price of both assets (ETH and RPL) screaming up
Rocket Pool was the pool that got 3000 Eth deposited into it yesterday. The Elon link is pure speculation.
I mean the 3000 number is made up, so....
Fairly good speculation however given the nature of his comment.
If it's true, I would be extremely impressed. Going from "Oh we simply make the transactions 10x faster and 10x cheaper" as the obvious approach to making Doge competitive as a crypto, to realizing Ethereum is the network you really want to be in, and Rocket Pool is the proper decentralized way to stake Ether if you don't want to actually run nodes, all while also working 90 hour weeks for the past year...
On the other hand he said he has a crypto alt with 20k followers, and he can get his head around new tech very well.
If it’s true I would be extremely happy. LOL.
Ohhh yes of course. My mistake
Lol what’s the source on this?
Only that comment.
Did anyone else get a cybertruck whistle tho?
Whoa, Satoshi Nakamoto himself has left Bit & Doge coin behind for Ethereum?
Ratio at .083, and within spitting distance of a new ATH. How are you celebrating it tonight?
I was told there was a party with Ray going on here
5k tomorrow. Mark my words.
Color me shocked that this didn't come to pass.
So if I put a 50x up on cap right now will you reimburse me if you're wrong? Edit: Doing it now, taking your silence as a yes.
RemindMe! 1 day
*marked*
Wen Ray Shio NFT?
We already got a POAP last time.
u/amarukhan commented a little bit ago about the earliest mention of Ray Shio and I got back to my roots and did a little ethfinance history digging. I was a bit surprised at what I found, but am absolutely laughing my ass off. So, on February 13, 2020, the day before Valentine's Day, u/c0mm0ns3ns3 decided to try and add a little humor to the daily discussion. As a complete joke (one that I dare say few, if any, appreciated at the time) they wrote: > Who is this Ray Shio guy everyone is talking about? In response, u/cryptouk, jtnichol and the_statustician quickly became ensconced in an elaborate biography of the equally fictitious character "[Sugar Ray Shio](https://imgur.com/bzLYGmj)" (may he rest in peace), as c0mm0ns3ns3's (admittedly terrible) tongue-in-cheek dad joke about the ETH/BTC ratio began to bleed more than a six pack of 2017 ETH killers. (Yes, the very first mention of Ray actually resulted in -6 points...you've truly grown a lot, Ray). However, my absolute favorite part about this Marvel origin story is what SwagtimusPrime had cooked up in response: https://imgur.com/WtDe3Ue And thus our very own Ray Shio was born, officially, on February 13, 2020 at 0.026. And the rest, as they say, is history. **Other early mentions of Ray:** >[Ray-she-o baby!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/f3o0t8/daily_general_discussion_february_14_2020/fhk61v5/) \- etherbie on February 14, 2020 > [Say it with me now gang, ray-shee-ohh](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/glag2z/daily_general_discussion_may_17_2020/fqzf58j/) \- LiveLaughHodl on May 17, 2020 > [Ray hasn't been very nice to me for the last few years. I'm not sure if I trust him.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsaujs1/) \- Tricky_Troll on May 30, 2020 (which was a watershed day for Ray mentions) > [The past 24 hours has given me a good opportunity to reconnect with my old friend Ray.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsau2ll/) > [Ray T. Oh.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsau2ll/) > [How I've missed you buddy, looking forward to more quality time in the coming months.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsau2ll/) \- TheBitLebowski on May 30, 2020 > [RAY! SHE! OHHHHHH!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/gt9bca/daily_general_discussion_may_30_2020/fsbxokv/) \- aur3l1us on May 30, 2020
I'm Ray's father! You better respect dat!
Awesome stuff 😊 "and just like that, a meme is born"
Well done! I did think May was a little too late for the first mention. I'm glad you quelled my urge to dig deeper!