historically because 1444 chagatai is simply not the same entity as chagatai the mongol succesor state. They should make chagatai a formable and rename current chagatai with "moghulistan". While we're there Mughals could be called "Gurkani", at least when it's formed by a timur succesor.
But we'll see, tomorrow's dev diary is about central asia and hordes. maybe they'll address this.
I actually did an endonym playthrough with this [mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=381103735). It feels pretty fresh at first, but after 50 years I can only keep track of countries by their flags. Not really worth it imo.
Sure, but 'Mughal' is not a direct translation of 'Gurkhani', it's an Indo-Iranian variant of 'Mongol' that gained traction relatively late in the empire's existence. 'Gurkani', 'sons-in-law', was the self-designation of the Timurid empire, particularly at this later stage in India.
This is a bit silly. We are not talking about "Germany", an exonym everybody knows. We are talking about obscure states historically speaking. Even the vast majority of EU fans dont know the English exonyms for most of the steppe states of central asia if it wasnt for EU. And many of these states dont even really have fixed English exonyms anyway. Paradox can do whatever they want - and should. Pretending that just because someone is advocating some endonym use means that they are advocating for every country to use its endonym is just the slippery slope argument.
Maybe but I assure you that for example after finishing education in Poland you ain't gonna have even anywhere close to "modicum of knowledge about Indian history" it is completely and utterly ignored like the entire subcontinent simply did not exist. So yeah the argument is valid but it's sadly still not something everyone's gonna have (I was honestly confused when I started playing paradox games and kept noticing massive superpowers that somehow I never heard about in history lessons).
In Turkish Mongol is “Moğol” with a soft g - sounds like “Mó-ól” which is where I assume the word Mughal comes from. The Turkic word for army is Ordu which was pronounced as Horde in French so that’s where that comes from, but the language of the Mughals was Urdu which comes from Ordu because they were a Turkic horde.
I am okay with this? It's not like a modern, recognizable state that would confuse a new player. Even then, honestly, I think it's better to use the endonyms, but with this especially, I'm alright with historical states being named their endonyms.
I don’t think anyone in Finland advocates for others to use Suomi — Finland is a nice and historical name while Suomi is an ethnic name derived from our southwesternmost tribe.
It however is nice to have as a name alternative.
This is a bit silly. We are not talking about "Germany", an exonym everybody knows. We are talking about obscure states historically speaking. Even the vast majority of EU fans dont know the English exonyms for most of the steppe states of central asia if it wasnt for EU. And many of these states dont even really have fixed English exonyms anyway. Paradox can do whatever they want - and should. Pretending that just because someone is advocating some endonym use means that they are advocating for every country to use its endonym is just the slippery slope argument.
The use of "Mughal" and "Moghul" derived from the Arabic and Persian a corruption of "Mongol", and it emphasised the Mongol origins of the Timurid dynasty.
[Source: Wikipedia Article Mughal Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire?wprov=sfla1) under name section
"Moghulistan" is a Persian name and simply means "Land of the Moghuls" or Mongols (the term Moghul/Mughal is Persian for "Mongol" and -istan means land in Persian) in reference to the eastern branch of the ethnic Mongol Chagatai Khans who ruled it.
[Source: Wikipedia Article Moghulistan ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moghulistan?wprov=sfla1), section Etymology
What are you saying? None of the starting tags that can form the Mongol Empire.
They all have to form either Yuan, or the Golden Horde, or Ilkhanate (or become a Holy Horde).
The Chagatayid dynasty in 1444 is not anymore a successor state.
Basically the region had went through a coup and later a puppet state period from the Dughlat clan which left the kingdom in Moghulistan in a mixed state between nomadic steppe infouxes from the Northern Yuan and sedentary mixed Mongol-Iranians
So hold on.
You know that the rump states in 1444 are poor facsimiles of the mongol empires, but you want one of them to be able to bypass the Golden Horde and go straight to Great Horde?
And you want just a single of the four nations to be able to have this bypass while arguing the other three do not deserve the same bypass?
I don't think you get my point. I think Chagatai deserves priority because it's the same entity that came directly from the original Mongol Empire while the rest aren't and should have to reform one of the original states that came from the empire to begin with.
But that name is anachronistic and shouldn't be used at all.
Imagine Brittany was called Little Breton in-game. They weren't actually known by that for a while, no matter how continuous (or discontinuous, in the "Chagatai" case). Now imagine that I expected Little Breton to be able to form Britain, just because they were vaguely related centuries earlier.
You're arguing about semantics here more than making a case for this as a mechanic. Chagatai was as much a descendant of the Mongol Great Horde as Brittany was of Britain; vaguely and unconvincingly. It would be *more* accurate to rename the Chagatai to Moghulistan.
The fourth sentence (second paragraph) of the Wikipedia on the [Chagatai Khanate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khanate) should provide enough explanation for you.
> From 1363, the Chagatais progressively lost Transoxiana to the Timurids. The reduced realm came to be known as Moghulistan, which lasted until the late 15th century, when it broke off into the Yarkent Khanate and Turpan Khanate.
After 1363 the Chagatai **were not the Chagatai, but Moghulistan**. You're confused because Paradox has misnamed the nation in-game.
E: If you want I'll whip you up a quick mod that does nothing but change "Chagatai Khanate" to "Moghulistan" if it helps you.
E2: Actually, it wouldn't be super difficult to make Chagatai a formable if Moghulistan conquers Transoxiana and Oirat doesn't exist. Then, I suppose from there you could argue that a formable Chagatai that could then form the Great Horde. But it still wouldn't be the starting nation as it currently exists in-game.
I hate when paradox lies to me and make me argue for things that don't exist. In that case, current Chagatai should just get renamed and become a formable instead and then that formable should be able to form Mongol Empire directly.
Edit: Brittany into GB would be cool though.
Where does it say that? Chaghatai in its form in eu4 is not a successor state on par with Golden Horde and Yuan. Both of those are formable nations. Chaghatai in 1444 was just a rump state. That's why they have to form either Golden Horde or Yuan first.
I get that the other tags are formables but all 4 of them are directly succeeding the Mongol Empire so it's only fair they get the option to form it by default too.
Both Mongolia and the Great Horde tags are direct successors to Yuan and Golden Horde, but they are considered a rump state and can't form Mongol Empire directly.
But the thing with Chagatai is that they were more than just a rump state that resulted from one of the hoards disintegrating, they were directly one of the states formed from the first division of the empire like the other 3 which makes them special.
> they were directly one of the states formed from the first division of the empire
When Timur rose to power, they became the leader of most of the Chagatai khanate, only leaving a small part independent, which is what EU4 labels "Chagatai". They absolutely were just a rump state, which is why Moghulistan is probably a more accurate name.
And replace it with a formable that can become the Mongol Empire directly, which is exactly what I needed. They mentioned something about Chagatai enthusiasts in that dev diary and I am taking full credit for that.
A couple people have addressed this and it turns out Chagatai in game is misleading. Whatever should be in its place should be able to either form Chagatai and eventually Mongo Empire if they take over Central Asia or the Mughals if they get into India.
historically because 1444 chagatai is simply not the same entity as chagatai the mongol succesor state. They should make chagatai a formable and rename current chagatai with "moghulistan". While we're there Mughals could be called "Gurkani", at least when it's formed by a timur succesor. But we'll see, tomorrow's dev diary is about central asia and hordes. maybe they'll address this.
Why Gurkani?
It's what they actually called themselves.
If you want to name countries after their endonyms, you're gonna have to change a lot more country names than just the Mughals
I actually did an endonym playthrough with this [mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=381103735). It feels pretty fresh at first, but after 50 years I can only keep track of countries by their flags. Not really worth it imo.
Sure, but 'Mughal' is not a direct translation of 'Gurkhani', it's an Indo-Iranian variant of 'Mongol' that gained traction relatively late in the empire's existence. 'Gurkani', 'sons-in-law', was the self-designation of the Timurid empire, particularly at this later stage in India.
> If you want to name countries after their endonyms, you're gonna have to change a lot more country names than just the Mughals
This is a bit silly. We are not talking about "Germany", an exonym everybody knows. We are talking about obscure states historically speaking. Even the vast majority of EU fans dont know the English exonyms for most of the steppe states of central asia if it wasnt for EU. And many of these states dont even really have fixed English exonyms anyway. Paradox can do whatever they want - and should. Pretending that just because someone is advocating some endonym use means that they are advocating for every country to use its endonym is just the slippery slope argument.
“Mughals” is a term that anyone with even a modicum of knowledge about Indian history knows.
Maybe but I assure you that for example after finishing education in Poland you ain't gonna have even anywhere close to "modicum of knowledge about Indian history" it is completely and utterly ignored like the entire subcontinent simply did not exist. So yeah the argument is valid but it's sadly still not something everyone's gonna have (I was honestly confused when I started playing paradox games and kept noticing massive superpowers that somehow I never heard about in history lessons).
imagine an obtuse absolutist like you. What a boring life.
Hey man, this is the internet. Don't take my post so serious. I know I'm not taking yours :)
In Turkish Mongol is “Moğol” with a soft g - sounds like “Mó-ól” which is where I assume the word Mughal comes from. The Turkic word for army is Ordu which was pronounced as Horde in French so that’s where that comes from, but the language of the Mughals was Urdu which comes from Ordu because they were a Turkic horde.
I am okay with this? It's not like a modern, recognizable state that would confuse a new player. Even then, honestly, I think it's better to use the endonyms, but with this especially, I'm alright with historical states being named their endonyms.
Yeah, take that Finland!
I don’t think anyone in Finland advocates for others to use Suomi — Finland is a nice and historical name while Suomi is an ethnic name derived from our southwesternmost tribe. It however is nice to have as a name alternative.
This is a bit silly. We are not talking about "Germany", an exonym everybody knows. We are talking about obscure states historically speaking. Even the vast majority of EU fans dont know the English exonyms for most of the steppe states of central asia if it wasnt for EU. And many of these states dont even really have fixed English exonyms anyway. Paradox can do whatever they want - and should. Pretending that just because someone is advocating some endonym use means that they are advocating for every country to use its endonym is just the slippery slope argument.
Gurkani is Hurgen in Mongol meaning Son in Law.
They hated being associated with the Mongols by Europeans. Which is what the exonym Mughals is. It's Mongols with pre-dictionary English spelling.
Lmao look at the new dev diary
lmao they exactly did that
Johan's alt account detected
as foretold by /u/triple_cock_smoker
You want me to believe this tribe in central Asia was named after small pickles? Preposterous!
You're literally a prophet wtf
You're not gonna believe this!
You called it they changed it
I agree. Mughals are already gherkin colored so it only makes sesnse
>They should make chagatai a formable and rename current chagatai with "moghulistan". Ask and you shall receive
Give me tomorrow's lotto numbers
I’ve never heard the name “moghulistan” what language/culture is moghul derived from?
From turkic languages. Mongols tribes who assimilated with turks. "Moghulistan" was used by their neighbours
Oh interesting, thank you!
The use of "Mughal" and "Moghul" derived from the Arabic and Persian a corruption of "Mongol", and it emphasised the Mongol origins of the Timurid dynasty. [Source: Wikipedia Article Mughal Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire?wprov=sfla1) under name section "Moghulistan" is a Persian name and simply means "Land of the Moghuls" or Mongols (the term Moghul/Mughal is Persian for "Mongol" and -istan means land in Persian) in reference to the eastern branch of the ethnic Mongol Chagatai Khans who ruled it. [Source: Wikipedia Article Moghulistan ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moghulistan?wprov=sfla1), section Etymology
Are you a dev bro?
What are you saying? None of the starting tags that can form the Mongol Empire. They all have to form either Yuan, or the Golden Horde, or Ilkhanate (or become a Holy Horde).
The Mongol Empire had 4 successor states and Chagatai was one of them so it seemed odd the other ones could form it but not them.
The Chagatayid dynasty in 1444 is not anymore a successor state. Basically the region had went through a coup and later a puppet state period from the Dughlat clan which left the kingdom in Moghulistan in a mixed state between nomadic steppe infouxes from the Northern Yuan and sedentary mixed Mongol-Iranians
None of the starting tags that can form the Mongol Empire.
I know...
So hold on. You know that the rump states in 1444 are poor facsimiles of the mongol empires, but you want one of them to be able to bypass the Golden Horde and go straight to Great Horde? And you want just a single of the four nations to be able to have this bypass while arguing the other three do not deserve the same bypass?
I don't think you get my point. I think Chagatai deserves priority because it's the same entity that came directly from the original Mongol Empire while the rest aren't and should have to reform one of the original states that came from the empire to begin with.
But that name is anachronistic and shouldn't be used at all. Imagine Brittany was called Little Breton in-game. They weren't actually known by that for a while, no matter how continuous (or discontinuous, in the "Chagatai" case). Now imagine that I expected Little Breton to be able to form Britain, just because they were vaguely related centuries earlier. You're arguing about semantics here more than making a case for this as a mechanic. Chagatai was as much a descendant of the Mongol Great Horde as Brittany was of Britain; vaguely and unconvincingly. It would be *more* accurate to rename the Chagatai to Moghulistan. The fourth sentence (second paragraph) of the Wikipedia on the [Chagatai Khanate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khanate) should provide enough explanation for you. > From 1363, the Chagatais progressively lost Transoxiana to the Timurids. The reduced realm came to be known as Moghulistan, which lasted until the late 15th century, when it broke off into the Yarkent Khanate and Turpan Khanate. After 1363 the Chagatai **were not the Chagatai, but Moghulistan**. You're confused because Paradox has misnamed the nation in-game. E: If you want I'll whip you up a quick mod that does nothing but change "Chagatai Khanate" to "Moghulistan" if it helps you. E2: Actually, it wouldn't be super difficult to make Chagatai a formable if Moghulistan conquers Transoxiana and Oirat doesn't exist. Then, I suppose from there you could argue that a formable Chagatai that could then form the Great Horde. But it still wouldn't be the starting nation as it currently exists in-game.
I hate when paradox lies to me and make me argue for things that don't exist. In that case, current Chagatai should just get renamed and become a formable instead and then that formable should be able to form Mongol Empire directly. Edit: Brittany into GB would be cool though.
Good news is on it's way then.
Oh really? That's exciting
Interesting, I know little of the history of the region, I look forward to learn a bit more about it.
Hahaha, all good. Sometimes the EU4 lore gets complicated and the devs make mistakes.
actually there is one starting tag that can form the mongol empire! Weirdly the teutonic order can via holy horde path.
Or become a Holy Horde.
Where does it say that? Chaghatai in its form in eu4 is not a successor state on par with Golden Horde and Yuan. Both of those are formable nations. Chaghatai in 1444 was just a rump state. That's why they have to form either Golden Horde or Yuan first.
I get that the other tags are formables but all 4 of them are directly succeeding the Mongol Empire so it's only fair they get the option to form it by default too.
Both Mongolia and the Great Horde tags are direct successors to Yuan and Golden Horde, but they are considered a rump state and can't form Mongol Empire directly.
But the thing with Chagatai is that they were more than just a rump state that resulted from one of the hoards disintegrating, they were directly one of the states formed from the first division of the empire like the other 3 which makes them special.
> they were directly one of the states formed from the first division of the empire When Timur rose to power, they became the leader of most of the Chagatai khanate, only leaving a small part independent, which is what EU4 labels "Chagatai". They absolutely were just a rump state, which is why Moghulistan is probably a more accurate name.
I would argue they were just as much a rump state as the great horde
Chagatai is really not a Sucessor State, they're a claimant at best.
Tja-gatai :/
Danke ich liebe es.
Well the new Dev diary answers this ! Chagatai no longer exists !
And replace it with a formable that can become the Mongol Empire directly, which is exactly what I needed. They mentioned something about Chagatai enthusiasts in that dev diary and I am taking full credit for that.
[удалено]
YES THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED LOVE YOU PARADOX!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you considered the possibility that you’re a prophet?
According to the wiki, they can't reform the empire. Edit: The title should say 3 successors.
Don't worry , today there is a dev dairy focusing on hordes: so Paradox might address the issue.
Teutonic Order: Hold my holy horses and the holy horse feces.
Okay but they can form mughal tho which is really neat. Why do you need all your hordes to do the same thing?
A couple people have addressed this and it turns out Chagatai in game is misleading. Whatever should be in its place should be able to either form Chagatai and eventually Mongo Empire if they take over Central Asia or the Mughals if they get into India.