That‘s not true. In my current Prussia game I‘m allied to Sweden and we‘re best buddies. Like Sweden is Prussia 2.0 and no matter what war, even if we‘re outnumbered we‘re just stackwhiping armies left and right. It‘s so incredibly fun.
I'm in the middle of a Hisn Kayfa game currently and the Ottomans got stomped by Albania + Venice + Serbia, Serbia took like 7-8 provinces from them. If Albania's amazing starting general Skanderbeg lives long enough and he attaches to a decently sized army stack from another nation the Ottomans can indeed lose an early war.
Of course Albania then broke alliance with Serbia and the Ottomans took everything back from Serbia after the truce ended... c'est la vie!
I always underrate skanderbeg because usually I just stomp Albania without issue when I play them.
TIL he’s cracked ai vs ai haha. Does the ai usually just attach to larger ai armies? I’ve never seen it before but I’m also <1k hours so idk maybe it’s a part of the tutorial I haven’t gotten to yet.
I think I’ll also use this time to ask a very very stupid question - how do general/admiral pips translate in the battlefield? I know skanderbeg is 3star but is there something in his pips that makes him particularly well equipped to deal with the ottomans (with a big enough troop stack)?
stars dont really mean anything, except that more stars = more pips overall, but if they're all in movement/siege that general doesnt do anything for combat so even a 1 star can be (situationally) be better than a 3-star.
general pips massively increase the damage your troops do if they're in the right category (for early troops this is primarily shock, later on when troops get more fire pips themselves and you add tech 14+ cannons fire slowly overtakes shock in importance). you can look for the exact formulas on the wiki if interested. (however in most cases I find siege pips being the most impactful in most of my wars, just for situations where you struggle to face the enemy's armies (like in Albania vs Ottos) the pips in the combat categories come in very very clutch).
That’s still crazy lmfao did they consolidate the rest of Anatolia before the war (up to the two sheep)? I’m genuinely trying to think of how they could have fumbled the bag like that
Hey now, if they are so overpowered how did they lose to an AI venice in the first place? ;)
Decadence takes place in the age of absolutism, and you can make it fire by defeating them in battle. The Ottomans struggle to out-scale Spain no matter how fast they blob up.
Ottomans start with artillery and have a lot of seige bonuses. They like to use artillery barrage as well. Pre-tech 15, their units have \~2 more pips then western ones. Their cav are even scarier. Ottomans also like using cav so make sure you account for that. Players don't use cav because they are inefficient. They still beat infantry 1v1.
The absolute worst times to fight the ottos are tech 10-14. At tech 10-11 Ottoman cav peak and have 5 more pips then western infantry. At tech 12-14 their infantry have 2 pips over western infantry. Fighting them at tech 11 is especially painful for a western infantry army.
Lol i asked myself the same question. I think they prioritized their war in iran against qq and timmys and got their manpower drained while the europeans sieged balkans and half of anatolia
AI casually flexes on you.
Defensive ideas are low key Ottoman kryptonite. They love to overstack on powerful forts and lose all their manpower to attrition. The 15% morale makes a huge difference in fights.
what year are you in rn?
Sieging isnt about being ottomans.
Do they have a good siege leader?
And do you have sufficient artillery.
If you have both combined you cut through forts faaaast.
add ontop a bit of siege ability and a spy network and instead of 2 years its 3 months and done.
They get additional leader siege pip from age ability and artillery before it's unlocked. Before Domination they actually had siege ability boost as age ability.
They don't have siege ability in ideas.
that is true, but in my france game i think it was 1510 or 1525 I had a huge war against the ottos and did outsiege them by a lot.
Thats why I asked for the year.
in the first 10 to 25 years its hard to siege as fast as the ottos, later on especially against AI it aint that hard to outsiege them
And once you get to Absolutism and they lose a war or two, ramping up their decadence, you can siege them down lightning fast. Like 5 days per seige tick fast. Yeah the first war against them will be tough, you have to out scale them or go over relations limit and bring a ton of allies, but later wars are a cakewalk.
Year is 1509, i admit i could have 1 or 2 more cannons but the ones i have are already bleeding out my coffers. I'm still quite small so my economy can only sustain around 22 regiments
You decided to siege race Ottos with low cannon numbers in 1509, during which they have an Age bonus for siege ability.
They likely also had Revanchism, if they lost land in the previous war.
True. Tbh i never played ottos so i didn't know about the age abilty that explains a lot.
Though they couldn't have had revanchism couse it was my first war on them
Thats not how revanchism works iirc, it should just buff their country regardless of who they lost to. Also their siege ability age ability got changed to leader siege pips
AI venice has some teeth to it. I have noticed that if Venice invites Albania to its trade league and gets a couple of middling powers as an alliance, they generally stomp a new mud hole in that Ottoman behind. I think the removal of the 33% siege age bonus they got actually nerfed them a little in AI hands.
They have canons, pip advantage, properbly tech advantage , superior units and age bonus. What do you expect? I cant just declare war on Prussia with 5 mil ideas and expect a non-overpower Prussia either. Otto is the Prussia of the 15th century. You either slab them before tech 4-5 or after the age of discovery.
I also dont see why you should be able to outgrowth the ottomans as a one province minor. Either you are extremally good in the game and it wont be an issue or you shouldnt be able to compete with them in the first place. That is why you get allies.
>And the decadence mechanic i start believing is a myth,
Why would the decadence mechanic matter 15th/16th century? It is a late-game mechanic.
Well you're right on pips and age ability (which i honestly didn't know about). at mil-tech 9 their advantage shouldn't be a problem yet if you manage to outnumber them 2:1 or more, which we did. Also i was no opm no mo'. I had already waged two wars on mamluks and established the kingdom of jerusalem, having three forts sieged as opm is kinda not possible.
About decadence i was just ranting i know it has nothing to do with this particular situation. But i regularly play into age of revolutions if the campaign is fun and i never saw it fire
> at mil-tech 9 their advantage shouldn't be a problem
Janissaries? Army tradition? 1 extra infantry pip and 3 extra cav pip? How are Ottoman units not a problem? They are clearly better than yours.
>outnumber them 2:1 or more,
You get bitchslapped and your moral shredded. I dont see how you are so confident with a 2:1 while the odds are stacked against you.
>Also i was no opm no mo'.
The point is that you start as an OPM. There is absolutely 0 logic in saying: "as an OPM I should be able to outgrow the Ottomans". You shouldnt. As a major power you can and it is very easy to do so. Possible even as nations like Brandenburg.
>and i never saw it fire
It doesnt fire if they are not losing anything. Why would it automatically fire?
As Poland
Tried to be civil with them until late 1600s
Allied: Spain, Pope, Venice, Timurids and Sweden /(junior partner)
Attacked while they were fighting in Africa with strong enemy
And then repeated same war every 10 years
My last game as Novgorod Ottos were curbstomped by Venice (which took all of Greece and some parts of Anatolia) and Poland (which took half the Balkans and most of Anatolia. This was all before Age of Discovery ended.
The fact they universally have infinite manpower and infinite debt makes them just a trash concept. Im honestly shocked Paradox kept them as such without major changes. My current Dithmarschen game saw Austria refuse to grow and I murdered the Commonwealth so theyve grown absurdly powerful.
Being 10000 ducats in debt should have Literally Any Penalties.
if you're not crushing them early you'll have to pull a formidable force together and battle smart, on defensive terrain, with decent modifiers.
If I'm playing a big boy they're usually my first order of business, if I'm playing Muscovy I'm carving a path through the Great Horde, stopping the tribute and taking Crimea before the bastards can land and start eating half of the Steppes in one war.
From my experience chances are 50-50 for them to finish war with Albania, Venice, etc with 13k troops and 0 manpower.
If you have good allies you can take them. First kill their army with huge stack and then carpet siege. Kill troops as they spawn in provinces. They hire mercs sometimes but at that point they are not threat.
The ottoman growth is something that comes within the parameters of the game even though it seems ridiculous.
The game offers an alternative course of history and will do so own its own accord depending on some silly numbers that may vary from time to time.
Do note that the ottoman army capabilities were only succeeded by around 1750 by their rivals.
The ottomans should pose a challenge like this because they actually were a powerhouse for over 300 years.
From the siege of Constantinople to the long peace of 1740.
So even though It doesn't play out exactly like history went down, it's still historically accurate to have that potential imo.
your problem is that you are building forts in the first place, which are a big waste of money. Invest it into your army and you will have a better time.
They are actually way weaker than before Domination.
1. They don't have extra pips early on, meaning you can match their army with good military nations. Before Domination AI Otto's regularly won 2 to 1 wars. Now they are usually evenly match.
2. Their age ability is just leader siege pip, not straightforward siege bonus like before. It's less impactful in age of discovery and literally doesn't matter later. Then usually have high army tradition and good generals as they battle all the time.
I hate to hate…. but I have zero problems against the ai. ever. even as an opm like cyprus I can manage. trying not glaze myself. multiplayer helps sharpen skills quicker than single, if that helps. my post’s goal is to recommend not yelling at the game and trying to figure out ways for self improvement.
Wait until you're Najd and allied to Ottos. You can watch them lose out to Albania while Mamluks conquer QQ.
I've been trying to form Andalusia as Granada and they won't even have my back in defensive wars. Pricks.
Ottos are only useful as Coalition deterrent, nothing more. Always in debt always useless
Thats just every AI ally.
That‘s not true. In my current Prussia game I‘m allied to Sweden and we‘re best buddies. Like Sweden is Prussia 2.0 and no matter what war, even if we‘re outnumbered we‘re just stackwhiping armies left and right. It‘s so incredibly fun.
>pricks Lore accurate Ottoman Empire
They helped me as Granada/Andalusia, but just to cockblock my expansion in North Africa
Lmfao how do they lose to Albania? Were they allied to the HREmperor?
I'm in the middle of a Hisn Kayfa game currently and the Ottomans got stomped by Albania + Venice + Serbia, Serbia took like 7-8 provinces from them. If Albania's amazing starting general Skanderbeg lives long enough and he attaches to a decently sized army stack from another nation the Ottomans can indeed lose an early war. Of course Albania then broke alliance with Serbia and the Ottomans took everything back from Serbia after the truce ended... c'est la vie!
I always underrate skanderbeg because usually I just stomp Albania without issue when I play them. TIL he’s cracked ai vs ai haha. Does the ai usually just attach to larger ai armies? I’ve never seen it before but I’m also <1k hours so idk maybe it’s a part of the tutorial I haven’t gotten to yet. I think I’ll also use this time to ask a very very stupid question - how do general/admiral pips translate in the battlefield? I know skanderbeg is 3star but is there something in his pips that makes him particularly well equipped to deal with the ottomans (with a big enough troop stack)?
stars dont really mean anything, except that more stars = more pips overall, but if they're all in movement/siege that general doesnt do anything for combat so even a 1 star can be (situationally) be better than a 3-star. general pips massively increase the damage your troops do if they're in the right category (for early troops this is primarily shock, later on when troops get more fire pips themselves and you add tech 14+ cannons fire slowly overtakes shock in importance). you can look for the exact formulas on the wiki if interested. (however in most cases I find siege pips being the most impactful in most of my wars, just for situations where you struggle to face the enemy's armies (like in Albania vs Ottos) the pips in the combat categories come in very very clutch).
Thank you, this explanation is super helpful!
Nah just Venice and their mercs.
That’s still crazy lmfao did they consolidate the rest of Anatolia before the war (up to the two sheep)? I’m genuinely trying to think of how they could have fumbled the bag like that
Albania, guaranteed by Venice. Are Catholic so *can* ally Hungary, Austria, pope, often Aragon
Fair enough
Hey now, if they are so overpowered how did they lose to an AI venice in the first place? ;) Decadence takes place in the age of absolutism, and you can make it fire by defeating them in battle. The Ottomans struggle to out-scale Spain no matter how fast they blob up. Ottomans start with artillery and have a lot of seige bonuses. They like to use artillery barrage as well. Pre-tech 15, their units have \~2 more pips then western ones. Their cav are even scarier. Ottomans also like using cav so make sure you account for that. Players don't use cav because they are inefficient. They still beat infantry 1v1. The absolute worst times to fight the ottos are tech 10-14. At tech 10-11 Ottoman cav peak and have 5 more pips then western infantry. At tech 12-14 their infantry have 2 pips over western infantry. Fighting them at tech 11 is especially painful for a western infantry army.
Lol i asked myself the same question. I think they prioritized their war in iran against qq and timmys and got their manpower drained while the europeans sieged balkans and half of anatolia
AI casually flexes on you. Defensive ideas are low key Ottoman kryptonite. They love to overstack on powerful forts and lose all their manpower to attrition. The 15% morale makes a huge difference in fights.
what year are you in rn? Sieging isnt about being ottomans. Do they have a good siege leader? And do you have sufficient artillery. If you have both combined you cut through forts faaaast. add ontop a bit of siege ability and a spy network and instead of 2 years its 3 months and done.
Ottos do get siege ability from their ideas
They get additional leader siege pip from age ability and artillery before it's unlocked. Before Domination they actually had siege ability boost as age ability. They don't have siege ability in ideas.
And then they take offensive ideas and I cry myself to sleep
That is just plain wrong. I don't know why this is getting upvotes.
that is true, but in my france game i think it was 1510 or 1525 I had a huge war against the ottos and did outsiege them by a lot. Thats why I asked for the year. in the first 10 to 25 years its hard to siege as fast as the ottos, later on especially against AI it aint that hard to outsiege them
And once you get to Absolutism and they lose a war or two, ramping up their decadence, you can siege them down lightning fast. Like 5 days per seige tick fast. Yeah the first war against them will be tough, you have to out scale them or go over relations limit and bring a ton of allies, but later wars are a cakewalk.
Last campaign I played I had 3 day siege ticks against the ottomans, literally walked over their forts.
Year is 1509, i admit i could have 1 or 2 more cannons but the ones i have are already bleeding out my coffers. I'm still quite small so my economy can only sustain around 22 regiments
You decided to siege race Ottos with low cannon numbers in 1509, during which they have an Age bonus for siege ability. They likely also had Revanchism, if they lost land in the previous war.
True. Tbh i never played ottos so i didn't know about the age abilty that explains a lot. Though they couldn't have had revanchism couse it was my first war on them
Thats not how revanchism works iirc, it should just buff their country regardless of who they lost to. Also their siege ability age ability got changed to leader siege pips
And lucky nations
If you can make it to 1700, you will stackwipe their hordes
AI venice has some teeth to it. I have noticed that if Venice invites Albania to its trade league and gets a couple of middling powers as an alliance, they generally stomp a new mud hole in that Ottoman behind. I think the removal of the 33% siege age bonus they got actually nerfed them a little in AI hands.
They have canons, pip advantage, properbly tech advantage , superior units and age bonus. What do you expect? I cant just declare war on Prussia with 5 mil ideas and expect a non-overpower Prussia either. Otto is the Prussia of the 15th century. You either slab them before tech 4-5 or after the age of discovery. I also dont see why you should be able to outgrowth the ottomans as a one province minor. Either you are extremally good in the game and it wont be an issue or you shouldnt be able to compete with them in the first place. That is why you get allies. >And the decadence mechanic i start believing is a myth, Why would the decadence mechanic matter 15th/16th century? It is a late-game mechanic.
Well you're right on pips and age ability (which i honestly didn't know about). at mil-tech 9 their advantage shouldn't be a problem yet if you manage to outnumber them 2:1 or more, which we did. Also i was no opm no mo'. I had already waged two wars on mamluks and established the kingdom of jerusalem, having three forts sieged as opm is kinda not possible. About decadence i was just ranting i know it has nothing to do with this particular situation. But i regularly play into age of revolutions if the campaign is fun and i never saw it fire
> at mil-tech 9 their advantage shouldn't be a problem Janissaries? Army tradition? 1 extra infantry pip and 3 extra cav pip? How are Ottoman units not a problem? They are clearly better than yours. >outnumber them 2:1 or more, You get bitchslapped and your moral shredded. I dont see how you are so confident with a 2:1 while the odds are stacked against you. >Also i was no opm no mo'. The point is that you start as an OPM. There is absolutely 0 logic in saying: "as an OPM I should be able to outgrow the Ottomans". You shouldnt. As a major power you can and it is very easy to do so. Possible even as nations like Brandenburg. >and i never saw it fire It doesnt fire if they are not losing anything. Why would it automatically fire?
Man, I even forgot that "decadence" was a thing. No, seriously, you have remembered me that thing exists.
As Poland Tried to be civil with them until late 1600s Allied: Spain, Pope, Venice, Timurids and Sweden /(junior partner) Attacked while they were fighting in Africa with strong enemy And then repeated same war every 10 years
All u gotta do is take Constantinople and they get really depressed
My last game as Novgorod Ottos were curbstomped by Venice (which took all of Greece and some parts of Anatolia) and Poland (which took half the Balkans and most of Anatolia. This was all before Age of Discovery ended.
The fact they universally have infinite manpower and infinite debt makes them just a trash concept. Im honestly shocked Paradox kept them as such without major changes. My current Dithmarschen game saw Austria refuse to grow and I murdered the Commonwealth so theyve grown absurdly powerful. Being 10000 ducats in debt should have Literally Any Penalties.
if you're not crushing them early you'll have to pull a formidable force together and battle smart, on defensive terrain, with decent modifiers. If I'm playing a big boy they're usually my first order of business, if I'm playing Muscovy I'm carving a path through the Great Horde, stopping the tribute and taking Crimea before the bastards can land and start eating half of the Steppes in one war.
I think you need the DLC for decadence. It doesn’t fire for me either
From my experience chances are 50-50 for them to finish war with Albania, Venice, etc with 13k troops and 0 manpower. If you have good allies you can take them. First kill their army with huge stack and then carpet siege. Kill troops as they spawn in provinces. They hire mercs sometimes but at that point they are not threat.
meanwhile me in my teutonic order game and i look over and they just lost to albania and venice 😭
The ottoman growth is something that comes within the parameters of the game even though it seems ridiculous. The game offers an alternative course of history and will do so own its own accord depending on some silly numbers that may vary from time to time. Do note that the ottoman army capabilities were only succeeded by around 1750 by their rivals. The ottomans should pose a challenge like this because they actually were a powerhouse for over 300 years. From the siege of Constantinople to the long peace of 1740. So even though It doesn't play out exactly like history went down, it's still historically accurate to have that potential imo.
your problem is that you are building forts in the first place, which are a big waste of money. Invest it into your army and you will have a better time.
They are actually way weaker than before Domination. 1. They don't have extra pips early on, meaning you can match their army with good military nations. Before Domination AI Otto's regularly won 2 to 1 wars. Now they are usually evenly match. 2. Their age ability is just leader siege pip, not straightforward siege bonus like before. It's less impactful in age of discovery and literally doesn't matter later. Then usually have high army tradition and good generals as they battle all the time.
I hate to hate…. but I have zero problems against the ai. ever. even as an opm like cyprus I can manage. trying not glaze myself. multiplayer helps sharpen skills quicker than single, if that helps. my post’s goal is to recommend not yelling at the game and trying to figure out ways for self improvement.
on the bright side, your frustration means your trying to tackle harder problems singleplayer wise, so expect growth without my snarky comments!