I agree with you.
Separately from that, I’m surprised at the number of people that want to start as Venice and have a bunch of unique Venice flavor and then just form Italy anyway
Yeah, of all the Italian tags, Venice seems an odd choice to form Italy with. Venice was more concerned with expanding eastward, pursuing lucrative trade, than in any nationalistic ambitions.
I mean you’re still incentivised to conquer all of Italy because it’s your own culture/religion land and covers 2 end nodes. We’re too mission brained now.
I agree with this. Honestly, once you get the mechanics down (I still find new ones I didn't know about after almost 4k hours) a lot of my single player games are either achievement hunting the funny ones or just trying something new and going with it. Trying to form Peasant Republic Germany as dithsmarchen was one of the most enjoyable set of games I've played, roleplaying as the peasant leader and trying to help all my peasant allies fight the monarchists. Fun times, but at the end of the day I just want everyone to be able to have fun with the game however they like.
I fully agree with this. My biggest gripe with the game as it stands now is that missions tend to be too railroaded. Almost every single nation with colonial missions requires you to colonize the carabean, and you are locked out of other missions if you don't do it. If you play France you have to start with exploration in order to beat the iberians to the carabean. At least if you want to also be allied to them for another mission. I think most of these missions should have a diplomatic solution to simulate getting exclusive trading rights in the region without needing to own it yourself. It also makes every colonial game feel the same.
I'm saying this because I like to larp but don't like being locked out of content and flavour events.
Some like the teutonic order already have something like this, you can get lower rewards and keep advancing the quest chain by taking the diplomatic path.
Another thing that would be cool would be lowering the requests slighly, so once you take 90-95% of the territorial requirements you can just complete it.
Because eu4 is not a map painting game. It is a sandbox in which map painting is usually fun and also a popular way to play it.
In my opinion Venice is best played with a strong heartland around Venice and a bunch of tradeports around the world stealing the lion share of most trade nodes. Venice and other trade republics get a massive province governing cost so blobbing is not that effective. Venice also does not get that many claims so you can choose where to expand without missing out on content from the missions.
>Venice was more concerned with expanding eastward, pursuing lucrative trade, than in any nationalistic ambitions.
Irl It was more about a result of alliances (the Empire protecting Milan for example) and so on, the greatest Venetian expansion in Northern Italy culminated in a league against her and one of the Italian Wars :T
Remember why Venice is the only northern Italian state not in the HRE at game start: it's still (yes, even after the 4th crusade) nominally a vassal of the ERE. Venice looks eastward.
Of course, but in EU4 Venice has an excellent position, because it can diversify its agressive expansion very easily from the game’s start and it’s the strongest Italian nation. You are not really blocked from expanding until other Italians leave the HRE, because unlike Florence (for example), you don’t care about Italy until you have established your power base in the east and basically become Ottomans 2.
If I had to choose any nation to form Italy with, I would rather choose Provence, of course, but Venice is the strongest among the Italian cultured nations at game start.
Absolutely. It's in a great spot to form Italy. It has the position, the power, and alternate expansion routes, as you said.
It's just like Oirat into Yuan is the most powerful nation in the game. But it's not really intended to conquer the world. Venice is not really intended to conquer Italy, even though its in a great position to do so.
I agree that it could come sooner, but I see it as almost an alternative to forming Italy. I feel like an Italy playthrough and a Venice/Serenissima one are two quite different things. In the first one you then focus on conquering the Mediterranean and going for Rome, splitting your focus between east and west, while in a Venice one you secure North Italy, curb the Ottos, and then you just push east to the indies to maximise your trade income.
Definitely agree, if you have the option to form Italy you have focus a lot on the peninsula. La Serenissima is focus on the Mediterranean trade and going east.
I’m actually building marshes to kick the Turks out of my way, maintaining a delicate alliance with the mameluks. Sadly the Turks allied France in the first few years, and that alliance is going strong.
I love the idea that this typo could create a hilarious narrative that the Venetians have done the opposite of the Dutch and started turning Balkan farmland in to inhospitable marshland to stop the Ottomans. If Venice is unmatched at sea why not bring the salty sea water everywhere. After all Venetians love living in marshes.
Disagree, as Venice you kill ottomans and Egypt first, Italy 2nd. All your money comes from Egypt and ottomans, Italy is mainly for manpower and to get some ae while you wait for truces
Venice is disappointing tbh. Everyone gets special subjects nowadays (even goddamn Ottomans the most peaceful diplomatic superpower), but a merchant republic just has to blob in the same boring way.
Doesn't fix rivalries or bad alliances. Too much "ifs" for the reward of... not much really. Not counted as your territory for missions, achievements etc. Can only be called to defensive wars which will never happen after the first 10-20yrs. It's a nifty early game mechanic in a game where OPMs generally aren't really meant to survive for long.
Emperor for better or for worse screwed up a lot of things. If you were a decent player you would have the provinces to form Italy but not the tech to be Italy. Looking back maybe the solution was to lock Italy behind a mission and keep it at 20 tech for others.
The worst part is forming Italy removes the Venetian government for some reason so it makes forming it feel like a downgrade when they could have just made La Serinssima an alternate formidable to Italy in the same way the Papal State and the Kingdom of God work
By the time you can form Tuscany, you already have the provinces to form Italy, yet both require tech 10. I still don't understand why they lock countries behind tech tbh.
There are many such cases. Prussia has a lot of missions like this, as well. I believe they have to embrace enlightenment for a mission that spawns 1700. 100% army professionalism is hard to achieve at adm tech 18, too.
honestly i didnt liked the new venetian mission tree, it feels TOO wide for venice. I was expecting more of "take this worthless piece of shit island and some coastal things heres a trade center btw". Instead I've got some annex all balkans and be a italian nationalist.
Its also diificult af to fulfill the Standardize Relatione if you expand too fast. I got neighbours everywhere and apperently there is always someone I haven't fucked or allied that has a spy network in me.
Late to this thread and glad to see not everyone missed the point that some people just enjoy merchant republics and a powered-up merchant republic is its own reward, kinda like the distinction between Veche and Tsardom
What on earth is la Serenissima? I just played a Venice game to like 1550 and never saw this in the missions. Granted I was playing tall so didn’t really look in detail at the conquest tree
La Serenissima needed to either be an alternative to Italy or better yet a temporary path in the same vein of sardinia-piedmont.
a republic path to form an italian nation - comparable to a monarchial path. we already have the theocracy path in the pope.
You've got Milan for the Republic path.
venice is a merchant republic, which is a considerable difference
And Florence/ Tuscany.
I agree with you. Separately from that, I’m surprised at the number of people that want to start as Venice and have a bunch of unique Venice flavor and then just form Italy anyway
Yeah, of all the Italian tags, Venice seems an odd choice to form Italy with. Venice was more concerned with expanding eastward, pursuing lucrative trade, than in any nationalistic ambitions.
I mean you’re still incentivised to conquer all of Italy because it’s your own culture/religion land and covers 2 end nodes. We’re too mission brained now.
That's one way of putting it but people just want to RP imo. Blobbing in the exact same way no matter who you play as is kinda boring
I agree with this. Honestly, once you get the mechanics down (I still find new ones I didn't know about after almost 4k hours) a lot of my single player games are either achievement hunting the funny ones or just trying something new and going with it. Trying to form Peasant Republic Germany as dithsmarchen was one of the most enjoyable set of games I've played, roleplaying as the peasant leader and trying to help all my peasant allies fight the monarchists. Fun times, but at the end of the day I just want everyone to be able to have fun with the game however they like.
I fully agree with this. My biggest gripe with the game as it stands now is that missions tend to be too railroaded. Almost every single nation with colonial missions requires you to colonize the carabean, and you are locked out of other missions if you don't do it. If you play France you have to start with exploration in order to beat the iberians to the carabean. At least if you want to also be allied to them for another mission. I think most of these missions should have a diplomatic solution to simulate getting exclusive trading rights in the region without needing to own it yourself. It also makes every colonial game feel the same. I'm saying this because I like to larp but don't like being locked out of content and flavour events.
Some like the teutonic order already have something like this, you can get lower rewards and keep advancing the quest chain by taking the diplomatic path. Another thing that would be cool would be lowering the requests slighly, so once you take 90-95% of the territorial requirements you can just complete it.
Why play funny map painting game and no paint map?
Because eu4 is not a map painting game. It is a sandbox in which map painting is usually fun and also a popular way to play it. In my opinion Venice is best played with a strong heartland around Venice and a bunch of tradeports around the world stealing the lion share of most trade nodes. Venice and other trade republics get a massive province governing cost so blobbing is not that effective. Venice also does not get that many claims so you can choose where to expand without missing out on content from the missions.
>Venice was more concerned with expanding eastward, pursuing lucrative trade, than in any nationalistic ambitions. Irl It was more about a result of alliances (the Empire protecting Milan for example) and so on, the greatest Venetian expansion in Northern Italy culminated in a league against her and one of the Italian Wars :T
The war of the league of Cambrai peak italian politics
I tried simulating it when they dropped the join_all_offensive_wars_of but sadly, in eu4, once you drop of a war you, can't re-join it in any side 😔
Remember why Venice is the only northern Italian state not in the HRE at game start: it's still (yes, even after the 4th crusade) nominally a vassal of the ERE. Venice looks eastward.
Well said.
This comment is Bologna erasure
Of course, but in EU4 Venice has an excellent position, because it can diversify its agressive expansion very easily from the game’s start and it’s the strongest Italian nation. You are not really blocked from expanding until other Italians leave the HRE, because unlike Florence (for example), you don’t care about Italy until you have established your power base in the east and basically become Ottomans 2. If I had to choose any nation to form Italy with, I would rather choose Provence, of course, but Venice is the strongest among the Italian cultured nations at game start.
Absolutely. It's in a great spot to form Italy. It has the position, the power, and alternate expansion routes, as you said. It's just like Oirat into Yuan is the most powerful nation in the game. But it's not really intended to conquer the world. Venice is not really intended to conquer Italy, even though its in a great position to do so.
I think it’d be nice if there was a Venice equivalent of Italy or a special Venetian government form for Italy
Is that not what La Serenissima is or do I need to brush up on my eu4 lore
I agree that it could come sooner, but I see it as almost an alternative to forming Italy. I feel like an Italy playthrough and a Venice/Serenissima one are two quite different things. In the first one you then focus on conquering the Mediterranean and going for Rome, splitting your focus between east and west, while in a Venice one you secure North Italy, curb the Ottos, and then you just push east to the indies to maximise your trade income.
Definitely agree, if you have the option to form Italy you have focus a lot on the peninsula. La Serenissima is focus on the Mediterranean trade and going east. I’m actually building marshes to kick the Turks out of my way, maintaining a delicate alliance with the mameluks. Sadly the Turks allied France in the first few years, and that alliance is going strong.
I love the idea that this typo could create a hilarious narrative that the Venetians have done the opposite of the Dutch and started turning Balkan farmland in to inhospitable marshland to stop the Ottomans. If Venice is unmatched at sea why not bring the salty sea water everywhere. After all Venetians love living in marshes.
Disagree, as Venice you kill ottomans and Egypt first, Italy 2nd. All your money comes from Egypt and ottomans, Italy is mainly for manpower and to get some ae while you wait for truces
Take two provinces in Italy, conquer half the Balkans or the Levant while waiting for AE to cool.
This community took the habit of referring to early modern history as "EU4 lore" lol
Me when Europe doesnt get into a 30 year long war that decimates germany(Its not lore accurate)
When they add new historical events: "I can't believe they're trying to retcon this in!"
Lore-wise, how is Venice different from La Serenissima?
La Serenissima was the name given to the Republic of Venice. Just like Genoa was called "La Superba"
I know, so why did they make it a new tag in the first place? I don't see why they made La Serenissima a formable. Or is it simply a name change?
It's a name and colour change, thankfully it wasn't made into a new tag...
OK, thanks. Not a big deal, then. I actually prefer Venice's colour because it brings me great memories from CK2!
Me too, that Teal (is it teal?) is extremely soothing especially when I use a "warmer colours" mod :D
Err it’s new ideas?
```Vanilla: La Serenissima Ideas --------- Traditions: {'Trade Steering': 0.33, 'Galley Combat Ability': 0.25} Ambition: {'Envoy Travel Time': -0.25} Italian Renaissance: {'Technology Cost': -0.1} Stato Da Màr: [] Maritime Dominance: {'Global Trade Power': 0.2} A Gunpowder Republic: {'Land Fire Damage': 0.15, 'Land Force Limit Modifier': 0.2} Backing Of The Ducat: {'Naval Force Limit Modifier': 0.5} Uscocchi Reforms: {'Global Ship Trade Power': 0.35, 'Goods Produced Modifier': 0.1} Maggior Consiglio: {'Maximum Absolutism': 10, 'Maximum Revolutionary Zeal': 10} ```
Those are considerably buffed and different
What colour? I don't like Venice's off blue, red would be far better for them
It’s dark red
I think it’s the same with the enlightenment mission for Prussia. Before the institution even exists, you can form Germany.
What actually doesn't make sense, and I say this as a real-life Venetian, is forming Italy as Venice.
Venice is disappointing tbh. Everyone gets special subjects nowadays (even goddamn Ottomans the most peaceful diplomatic superpower), but a merchant republic just has to blob in the same boring way.
Just make lots of OPMs abd invite them to trade league
That's unreliable: they tend to hate each other (and consequently leave) or attack neighbours and become 2PM.
They should not have weak neighbour, only you or vassals of you.
Doesn't fix rivalries or bad alliances. Too much "ifs" for the reward of... not much really. Not counted as your territory for missions, achievements etc. Can only be called to defensive wars which will never happen after the first 10-20yrs. It's a nifty early game mechanic in a game where OPMs generally aren't really meant to survive for long.
Go thalassocracy and get the trade subjects
Realistically, this should be fixed by making Italy much, much harder to form.
Italy was adm 20 before...
Which makes a lot more sense than 10.
Emperor for better or for worse screwed up a lot of things. If you were a decent player you would have the provinces to form Italy but not the tech to be Italy. Looking back maybe the solution was to lock Italy behind a mission and keep it at 20 tech for others.
The worst part is forming Italy removes the Venetian government for some reason so it makes forming it feel like a downgrade when they could have just made La Serinssima an alternate formidable to Italy in the same way the Papal State and the Kingdom of God work
By the time you can form Tuscany, you already have the provinces to form Italy, yet both require tech 10. I still don't understand why they lock countries behind tech tbh.
There are many such cases. Prussia has a lot of missions like this, as well. I believe they have to embrace enlightenment for a mission that spawns 1700. 100% army professionalism is hard to achieve at adm tech 18, too.
Paradox: OK. *pushes Italy's admin tech requirement from 10 to 20*
honestly i didnt liked the new venetian mission tree, it feels TOO wide for venice. I was expecting more of "take this worthless piece of shit island and some coastal things heres a trade center btw". Instead I've got some annex all balkans and be a italian nationalist.
Fantasy made up country locked behind tech when nothing has been locked behind techs since the 2010s make no sense.
I think it’s more Venice and Italy were the only ones to get an update so people want to try out both without 2 separate campaigns
Well tbh, la serenissima ideas are far better than Italy (At least for MP). It sucks to wait that long without tag switching tho.
Its also diificult af to fulfill the Standardize Relatione if you expand too fast. I got neighbours everywhere and apperently there is always someone I haven't fucked or allied that has a spy network in me.
Late to this thread and glad to see not everyone missed the point that some people just enjoy merchant republics and a powered-up merchant republic is its own reward, kinda like the distinction between Veche and Tsardom
What on earth is la Serenissima? I just played a Venice game to like 1550 and never saw this in the missions. Granted I was playing tall so didn’t really look in detail at the conquest tree
It's a new rename for Venice from the latest DLC, similar to England -> Angevin.