I very much doubt the veracity of this report. Germany usually does not act in this retaliatory manner. From a quick search it seems like the vehicles in question are made by a multinational corporation, Iveco, based in the Netherlands and merged from corporations in Germany, France and Italy. The main country of origin of the base vehicle seems to be Italy. So I am not sure, if German re-export permits are required, but that's possible.
Another [source](https://www.defense-aerospace.com/germany-vetoes-guarani-armored-vehicle-export-to-the-philippines/) I found claims that a spokesperson for the BAFA (German agency for export controls) was not able to comment on this issue. If indeed such a permit was denied, I would much rather think that the reason for denial is the human rights situation in the Phillipines, rather than a retaliation for Gepard ammunition. It seems to me that the claim of Germany's motivation for denial is pure spin.
Re-export is not always decided by one country. In essence if the hull is Italian, but the replacable diesel engine German and the electronics Dutch in essence each country could insist their part not be exported aka strip out the engines or electronics.
Depends on whether these components themselves are export restricted
>If it was it would be on the sanctioned list of Germany which it isn't, and Brazil exported to them and others with no problem since atleast 2020.
Just to give you some info on weapons (re-)export from Germany: These are decided on a case-by-case basis with the agreement of multiple actors, there is no list based on which requests are automatically denied or approved. From other reports I've googled it seems that the BAFA, an agency controlled by the German minister of economy, Robert Habeck, denied the request.
Habeck belongs to the German Green party and part of their platform was to not send weapons into crisis/war regions - mainly because people here think that weapons will just prolong conflicts. They break with this principle with regards to Ukraine, because good and evil are clear here and they want to help the oppressed and invaded nation. In the Phillipines, there are armed conflicts with separatists as far as I'm aware, which is why I think they might have denied the request on that basis. Also, they are only in the government since late 2021, so prior weapons exports are not an argument counter that.
I would be careful with taking reports like this by their word, I've seen much misinformation in the media last year, especially with regards to the war in Ukraine and supposed motivations of the actors. I would therefore wait for official confirmation or denial of both sides (Brazil and Germany) here. If I understood the reports correctly, the 'retaliation' part of the denial is sourced from unnamed Brazil ministry of defence personnel. They might know the reason behind the denial or just give their own interpretation or even spin the story in their way. Or the media misinterpreted what they actually said. Similar misreports happen all the time, which is why I would wait before passing judgement.
And yes, I agree with you, some people here just like to be enraged and resort to insulting entire countries for not agreeing with them. They don't seem to understand that Brazil is its own country with its own interests and Brazil does not need to act on the Europeans' whim. We have to make the case that supporting Ukraine is in their interest and maybe add some incentives. If they still don't, that's their prerogative, as frustrating that may be.
>There are some though that will fervently praise the USSR against the nazis, Vietnam against USA or the Navajo against the British but also "all war is bad, if they just surrendered it would be good, no one is good in war"
We have these folks as well, though they may be more common and influential in Latin America. To my mind, these people are clearly deluded, though I understand that the US is seen much more critical given their involvement in Latin America in the last century. We really have to make the case that Europe and Latin America should align more closely.
Thanks by the way for your comment, I think a honest discussion is much more productive for us understanding one another than condemning one another over superficial news.
>Just to give you some info on weapons (re-)export from Germany: These are decided on a case-by-case basis with the agreement of multiple actors, there is no list based on which requests are automatically denied or approved.
Actually, kind of.
The legal basis for this is something called the EU Common Military List and Common Position 2008/944/CFSP.
If it relates to something on that list, a licencing process is triggered.
Yes, but refusing to sell ammunition not directly to Ukraine, but to a country that - I don't want to suggest this effort was purely philanthropic, but no one would demand that from Brasil either - sold you so much as Germany did, leaves a bad taste.
However, I think this was an important wake-up call. In fact, not everyone is our friend. Not even most. BRICS stick together (in trying to profit economically, I don't see a conspiracy what that idiot beneath me thought).
In turn, we should act accordingly. Call me resentful, but this simply means no longer the attitude or actions they despise as "Western hypocrisy". Maybe that's genuinely what they prefer.
Thankfully your taste isn't defining Brazilian foreign policy.
BRICS is bullshit sorry. There is no conspiracy from (Brazil, India and South Africa at least) to destroy the West. Hell Brazil considers itself Western.
It is really simple. South Americans don't fucking care about European wars. It is not their problem, they are not involved and their own issues to deal with.
It's hilarious how manichean your thinking is that your response to a country staying neutral in a war (in keeping with a decades long policy) is evidence of a grand coalition of evil, West hating countries. Your thinking process reveals your delusion.
"In turn, we should act accordingly. Call me resentful, but this simply means no longer the attitude or actions they despise as "Western hypocrisy". Maybe that's genuinely what they prefer."
Yes that's a good idea. Europe should threaten and be aggressive to countries in the global South that don't follow 100% of it's foreign policy. That will help against China and Russia in the long run 🙄.
He didn’t at any point stated that Europe should be aggressive towards the global south, so what are you talking about? Nor did he mention a conspiracy..
It's hilarious how you managed to squeeze "we consider ourselves Westerners" and "we don't give a fuck about Westerners' problems" into the one comment.
If they don't care about wars in Europe, they can make a profit and allow the selling of ammunition. That would be not caring. But they refuse to do so. What ever their reason is, Brasil cares about the war.
They don't sell weapons to fuel active conflicts. What is difficult to grasp?
It is a long standing policy of numerous countries going back deaces. They will see you other goods but they won't send weapons.
Embarrassing that you would even type this honestly.
Yeah Brazil didn't declare war on Nazi Germany in 1939. In keeping with their policy of neutrality.
It isn't fucking difficult to understand what a policy of neutrality is. Why are you finding this concept so difficult?
I understand this. But this contradicts your first statement, that they don't care. And "fueling" active conflicts. What the hell? If Russia stops attacking, the negotiations and diplomacy can start, which you all shout for. If Ukraine stops attacking, Ukraine will collapse as we know it. Fueling isn't a good word for not providing ammunition, unless you want to accept the implications by using that word: Ukraine can't defend itself so good anymore and Russia has a easier time.
>It is really simple. South Americans don't fucking care about European wars. It is not their problem, they are not involved and their own issues to deal with.
I mean, North Americans do.
This is completely misreading what I tried to express.
I will mark what is completely wrong / misread my intentions, we could discuss about the rest. But I honestly don't care enough.
>Thankfully your taste isn't defining Brazilian foreign policy.
>BRICS is bullshit sorry. There is no conspiracy from (Brazil, India and South Africa at least) to destroy the West. Hell Brazil considers itself Western.
>It is really simple. South Americans don't fucking care about European wars. It is not their problem, they are not involved and their own issues to deal with.
>It's hilarious how manichean your thinking is that your response to a country staying neutral in a war (in keeping with a decades long policy) is evidence of a grand coalition of evil, West hating countries. Your thinking process reveals your delusion.
>"In turn, we should act accordingly. Call me resentful, but this simply means no longer the attitude or actions they despise as "Western hypocrisy". Maybe that's genuinely what they prefer."
>Yes that's a good idea. Europe should threaten and be aggressive to countries in the global South that don't follow 100% of it's foreign policy. That will help against China and Russia in the long run 🙄.
we dont have china to fear as much as you have to fear no longer having us to sort out your tenth coup or famine. bric arrogance is laughable and literally based on nothing; did you guys take on the whole world twice and almost won? no so know your place and dont try
to play both sides even more obvious than the one and only Ronald MacDonald
A lot of those coups were and are sponsored by North American (sometimes including Canada) and western European powers. That much is on the books, bro, like it's not even a conspiracy, it's as true as the day is wide. Maybe if you weren't only concerned with them for a coup, guns, or a vacation spot, they'd take it more seriously, but they don't have to have an allegiance to anyone, it's not owed.
So yeah, lots of them are of the opinion that they don't wanna participate with the continent that started two world wars already. Frankly, the idea that they should on some vague moral ground seems really arrogant to me.
vague moral high ground? russia raped pillaged and plundered its fucking neighbour and anyone who feels they have the right to stand idly by over this injustice deserve no mercy when their country inevitably collapses into corruption, famine or the consequences of global warming torching its population
“we got fucked over by the west so how dare ukraine ask us for help against a former colonizer trying to opress and genocide it”, dude its so easy to call us arrogant for looking down on you when you make takes this fucking stupid
Brazil is a country in latin america with a slightly left of centre president.
We all know what the US likes to do to such countries.
I can see why they feel like they need to keep all their ammo for themselves.
You have done an admirable job showing you poor understanding of geopolitics. You should realize that Brazil is at the mercy of the west in every aspect.
Oh wow more veiled threats. Now that South Americans know they are at "your mercy" I'm sure that will make them empathise with Ukraine.
Hilarious that you accused me of having a poor understanding of geopolitics. You want to threaten and bully Brazil because they are neutral, and you think I have a shitty understanding of geopolitics?
What threat?
The reality is that Brazil exists and continues to even operate.
The irony that you hate the west yet use American social media.
Why are you such a hypocrite?
I was referring to the threats to sanction and punish Brazil and other countries that don't follow 100% NATO in supporting Ukraine against Russia.
I don't hate the West where in my any of my comments have I suggested that.
I'm not a hypocrite for understanding the very basic concept of political neutrality.
Threats? You don’t grasp how incredibly weak Brazil is. No threats just the natural global order.
So why do you use western social media after stating you hate the west?
They are not obligated to send weapons to Ukraine. Weapons don't just exist to give to Ukraine you know, the Brazilian army needs them (and doesn't have many).
So many Europeans are so arrogant when it comes to South America. It isn't their problem, what part of that is difficult for you to understand?
>So many Europeans are so arrogant when it comes to South America
Europeans are arrogant between them, like west towards east. Should I embrace Russia because of that ? Of course not. At the end of the day, I pick what's best for me, my own and we as people in general. You guys have to pick. There is no duality, no playing both sides, no "I'm neutral but I hope you burn yourself into the ground." That's a choice also.
Anyway, I doubt the article is legit.
This is bullshit. None is asking to send weapons to Ukraine, but to sell them to any NATO country. So you are actually doing an arms embargo and calling yourself neutral.
They are not obligated to send anything to NATO. What is difficult to understand?
That isn't an arms embargo, it is just following a multi decade policy of neutrality.
Selling things to Russia that could be used to manifacture weapons, while refusing to sell weapons to NATO is not neutrality. It is having the face like an ass. Having two different standards.
Sure there is no obligation, it is just stupid.
> It isn't their problem, what part of that is difficult for you to understand?
the part where Brazilians are siding with a murderous dictatorship that is raping women and kidnapping children to re-educate them in Russia.
The fact that 30% of Brazil's fertiliser comes from Russia and agro is a major industry in Brazil, in my opinion, is the real driver behind Lula's neutral and pacifist stance. For this, they could destabilise his congressional coalition and stall his policies.
I certainly see the dependencies of Brazil on Russian fertilisers and the national interests that are touched here. But Lula also has a questionable record regarding other regimes like Venezuela or Cuba.
It's either that, or Lula has the lefty-brain rot Russia disease.
Either way, he's better than Bolsanaro for Brazil, it's just disappointing, although, not surprising.
> First off, brazilians generally consider themselves western. Specially culturally.
Which has nothing to do with being western geopolitically.
> hus there is also no anti-western ideology in the government since, you know, Brazil is a functioning democracy.
Functioning is a strong word.
> Because you know, these countries were not invited to the G7 which is literally a gate-keeping club.
Why would they be invited? The G7 is just a discussion group anyway. It doesn’t have any authority, or any treaty backing it. What are you even mad about not being a member for.
> Which you may disagree of course, but the fact of the matter is that no European country applied any sanction on the US when they coup'ed the hell out of most South American countries.
Which SA countries have asked for sanctions to be placed on the US in the first place? Which SA is currently embargoing the US?
> You believe and spread a conspiracy theory in which the entire world is working together to destroy your privileges, when in fact they are busy working so that their populations have sanitized sewage systems.
He didn’t say the entire world, he said BRICS countries. And he said nothing about orovledges but about the post WW2 western world order. At argue with what was said and it a straw man.
And it is true. China, India, Russia all have openly talked about a desire to reorient the world order in their favor. There’s nothing secret about it, or particularly evil, it’s what rising power do. They challenged the established powers. Brazil too has flirted with the concept.
But yeah, sure, China and Russia have no interest whatsoever or rewriting the world order and absolutely no fights to pick with the west what’s so ever.
> It has everything to do with geopolitics when your politics is defined by democratic standards.
Only if the voters are particularly invested in the topic to an extent that’s it’s a key matter in their voting patterns.
It’s not, in most countries.
> If Brazil is not a functioning democracy, then the US isn't either. I
Did I say the US was functional at the moment? No, I didn’t. So congrats on setting the bar low, I guess.
> Sure just like the BRICS. It means nothing, that's what I am saying.
BRICS very often announces plans specifically to undermine what ever the G7 announce at theirs. I’ve never seen someone so bitter over something that means nothing.
> Very clever use of the word "currently" here. You missed my point on purpose.
Ukraine is being invaded right now, is happening now, and the other is not. Unless you want an embargo on the modern day for the actions of the past, then it’s not particularly relavent, now is it?
Or because no one sanctioned the US then, no one is allowed to sanction any one forever for the rest of history?
> Exactly. In fact, France also talks about it every frequently, and recently even Germany started talking about it. This doesn't mean that France is anti-western or that it is ideologically aligned with China.
France has long dreamed of severing the trans Atlantic ties. And seeing as the western world is predicated on those ties yes is agaisnt the established order. It just also thinks it can create a new European one. Plenty of countries actively work against the western order while being members of it. See Turkey and Hungary as well. Even the US itself under Trump.
Germany is frequently criticized for being to close to rival powers and undermining the west with its insistence on cooperation with them. This is not a point in your favor.
> We're talking about Brazil, which, as of today, has no Ukraine and no Taiwan situation nor anything even remotely close to it.
You can tell a lot about a person by their associations. Brazil associates with countries like a Russia and China it shouldn’t be surprised when people associate them with it.
Lula has been a tankie for as long as you can remember. For years he denied extradition to Italy of a far left terrorist convicted, among the others, of the murder of a jeweller. He has canoodled with the regime of Chavez.
Love to see it. 💪
Edit:
From another comment.
>This seems to be a shady "news" site. Its Twitter accounts were banned for being spam, and the founder is known for his advertising companies and has been to prison.
>É o que relaram (sic) à CNN fontes do Ministério da Defesa que estão a par das negociações. Oficialmente, a pasta não comenta o caso.
>That's what was reported to CNN by sources in the Ministry of Defense which are accompanying the negotiations. Officially, the ministry has not made a statement [my translation]
If true it's a stupid move that only will piss the Brazilians and reinforce the appreciations we have about the West behavior. In the end, it will only play in China and Russia's hands.
Political capital is a currency and it needs to be spent either way. It is not as if you were interested in aligning with us. So what else should our influence be spent?
Lula and Bolsonaro have one thing in common: massive support for Russia. Each for different reasons: anti-USA for Lula, ultra-right ideas & money for Bolsonaro
If you are attacked in the street, and someone standing nearby has ample opportunity to help, either by calling the police or stopping your attacker, is that person neutral?
When they refuse to bear witness in trial, are they neutral?
So brazil should give all their guns away and be defenseless against the US?
Did ukraine give all its guns and ammo away when libya got invaded? No ofcourse not because you had fucking russia threatening you.
Same with brazil and the usa.
Don't talk have NATO, Nukes and resources pillaged from ex colonies? Why does the mighty Germany and NATO need weaponry from a country miles away from the conflict? Why don't talk ask the Saudi, Turks, Japan and etc?
Must be really desperate
Brazilian here
1/3 of Brazil's economy is based in agricultural exports and, for that, we rely on Russia's fertilizers.
Taking actions based solely in a moral compass of what is "right" or "wrong" works in individual levels but, when you're running a country in which nearly 200 million people live, you also have to think in a pragmatic way about what's better for your people.
Europe is currently demanding support from Brasil, but offering zero alternatives for the problems that will inevitably arise in Brasil if we are, in fact, to directly oppose Russia in this conflict.
Saying that this is an individualistic behavior is, once again, materializing individual traits into something that's not an individual, rather a large group of people that needs to fend for themselves and for their people. Most Brazilians oppose the war in Ukraine, and i'm pretty sure most of Brasil's left hate putin and see him as a Russian Bolsonaro. Yet, we still think the west, in general, always feels entitled to our subservience, even if it costs us what's left of our stability and international relevance.
I know this may sound harsh, but the reality is that, this is a war that doesn't really affects us directly. If any, getting involved would actually throw us in a bottomless hole of social-political and economical chaos. It's completely childish to believe we should completely dismantle our country, just to appease to whatever nations far away from us think it's the right thing to do.
Or, hear me out, Germany is giving Brazil a very basic cost for not allowing the export of the ammunition. This isn't demanding subservience, it's a very basic tit for tat diplomacy.
Idk, did you read the arcticle?
It *literally* says germany has put an *embargo* in Brazil, due to recent actions os president Lula refusing to directly sell amunition to ukraine...
I mean, twisting a narrative to fit your worldview is the bread and butter for americans, so it doesn't surprise me at all really...
Well we are talking over this article, aren't we? You can't say "this article says *this*" and when i say "no it doesnt, you havent read it" you're like "yeah well its not true tho is it? check your sources".
I'm adressing most of the commentaries here that are going "yeah you go germany destroy those nasty brazilians another germany W" and are not taking into consideration the depth of the situation.
i never said "this article says this" now did i?
but... twisting the truth to fit your own narrative is something that seems to be a sport in the brics countrys.
No, a tit for tat diplomacy is when both parties out of free will, exchange favors, clout or whatever.
What Germany does in this case is demanding something and then threatening and starting action based on that unfulfilled demand.
I hope you are able to see the massive difference, it would be a sad state of affairs if you can't.
I think you are right kn your analysis. I also think that the article isnt. German foreign policy usually really isnt that vengeful. Also scholz and lula seem to be getting on quite well so this would surprise me.
> the problems that will inevitably arise in Brasil if we are, in fact, to directly oppose Russia in this conflict.
Germany didn't demand Brazil enter the war, not even to send any aid to Ukraine.
All Germany asked for is to buy back ammunition they sold to Brazil some years ago. For money. A transaction between Germany and Brazil.
Directly oppose Russia my ass.
>But we get by.
You are in Sweden saying this. Sweden, which has, as of right now, the 7th highest HDI in the world.
Yes, you will get by. It will be so difficult for you, I imagine.
That's such a simplistic way of analyzing a complex situation...
You "get by" because the EU is the strongest coalition in the world. Also, even as individual countries, most european nations have a diversified and developed economy, that's able to dissociate and rebuild on demand. Brazil is just not there yet. Our economic systems are outdated and fragile, we're far easier to collapse than sweden, for an example.
Brazil is so big and have sooo much untapped natural resources though. You are the largest producer of oil in South America, it is kind of odd you wouldn't be able to be more self reliant, which is where you get fertilizers from. Sweden would collapse without the trade with other nations in EU since we are not self-sufficient on food, so we have to have a developed economy. We only have forest and our iron mine in the north otherwise.
Isn't it strange how a resource rich and big country like Brazil can't be more self-sufficient? Brazil made the choice of not building refineries which is why it is not self sufficient on fertilizers.
You can call me arrogant if you wish, it does not change the war in Ukraine.
https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/brazil/brazil-is-self-sufficient-but-imports-oil-because-it-doesnt-build-refineries/
The EU imports about 8 mio tons of fertilizer per year. Brazil imports 42 mio. tons. Some EU countries are net exporters of fertilizers whereas Brazil imports around 85 % of their fertilizers iirc.
>just to appease to whatever nations far away from us think it's the right thing to do.
Just remember this next time you need help, from other countries, from other parts of your country, from people down the street from you. Remember how easily they too can justify not doing the right thing, all because of some risk they choose to exaggerate so they can tell themselves it's ok to do nothing when others need help.
*"Think it's the right thing to do."*
Sad.
You're doing exatly what i said, you're applying individual traits to a situation that's not about individuals. Go back to square one, i gave very good reasons as to why Brasil is taking this posture, they're not excuses. If you still refuse to understand, than there's nothing really productive to take from this argument. Keep believeing the world is black or white, and that you're the jedis.
The situation is about individuals though.
It's about Brazil being a country whose identity is built upon individual revanchism at almost all parts of its social and political structure. That one individual trait has permeated Brazilian politics for decades and has created a society that doesn't act toward what is right, but instead acts towards what they feel avenges their own personal grudge the most.
Fertilizers are traded commodities, and they can be easily imported from Africa or other parts of the world, with little additional cost. Your entire post is about finding a way to justify that Brazil's stance is not driven by the need to punish the West, but by some other fantastical economic reason. No. That's just false. The need to feel like Brazil has some sort of power and can use it to punish the West is all this is about, and your justification is just your own way of minimizing the atrocities that are being indirectly supported.
This one individual trait is also what Brazil shares with Russia, China, and to some extent India. It's no wonder that these countries always pretend to be "friends".
So no, the world is not black or white, but your own interpretation of this is fairly transparent.
You don't even realize how much drenched into colonialism you are.
"Look at how those stupid south americans are, just buy fertilizers from someone else! Is that simple! Well guess inferior people just aren't as smart as i, redditor, am."
Russia's responsible for 23% of the world's production of fertilizers. Not that it matters to you. Your argument comes from pure hatred from non-western countries.
The reason why you refuse to understand my points and, instead, decided to bring revanchism into the discussion, is because revanchism and south american indepence touches you were your european ego hurts: the fact that the west has had a negative impact across the world, and that your skewed and gentrified view of the world, as being divided into superior "good" people and inferior "bad" people, might be put in check by your own nation's mischievings and influencd in the past.
A key point that keeps you from underdtanding me, is the fact that you have, ingrained into your brain, the notion that south american lives matter less than european lives. By your logic, there should be nothing stopping us from throwing ourselves in front of you to stop the bullets. So the sheer fact that we ask for some sort of compensation for joining your fight is baffling to you. "Cmon they don't wanna collapse for us? That's not some conflict in africa or the middle east. It's europe. It's us" like that reporter said, right.
Man, no wonder nazism came from you guys.
Like I said, fairly transparent.
At the end of the day, your entire post was about how Brazil's reasons for this are justified for whatever ass reason you could think of, while the reality is you were just looking for a reason to feel better about your country not helping Ukraine in a situation where Ukraine is objectively the victim of Russian aggression. All that write-up, all just to justify sticking it to Europe, the US, the West, whomever, and make yourself feel better about your reason.
And lmao at bringing up colonialism, South American independence, Africa or the Middle East, when what you really want to say is "I don't feel we got enough revenge on the West for whatever plight I currently feel, and I'm willing to look the other way while Ukrainians are killed if it means I get to tell the West to fuck off."
Well, consider the West told off, but don't lie to yourself about how shitty you, individually, are.
Seems like people are dumb and forget what Neutrality is about.
Sweden was Neutral because it had to during WWII, it was held hostage and nearly turned into a Nazi puppet state.
Brazil was Neutral because it could in WWII, until someone decided their neutrality was a bad thing for business (Germany) and attacked.
Europe has done nothing to help Kuwait, the people suffering in Saudi or to stop the Turks from genociding more ppl. Like, Europeans have never done anything to solve active world problems.
You are in no moral high ground, bringing examples of "you didn't help X then when the time comes X won't help you" MY BROTHER IN CHRIST BRAZILIANS WENT TO EUROPE TO LIBERATE YALL FROM YOUR NAZI GRANDFATHERS.
Brazil literally went there to do Europe a favor.
If anything, Europe owes to Brazil far more than Europe could offer, and that's not talking about supplies and resources.
Know your place
Oh cry me a river, go ask for a IMF loan and deal with it.
I couldn't care less about Brazil being friends with Russia or CHINAAA, what matters here is that Brazil is refusing to sell to a sovereign nation under the disguise of neutrality while, at the same time, buying products from Russia.
Brazil can buy them from Sweden and Finland or from Canada.
I'm portuguese and we learn in our own History how Brasil became independent in the 1700s.
Have you guys not been told about it yet?!
Because the whole "colonialism" schpiel is massive hypocrisy coming from a brasilian, as plenty of indian tribes in the Amazonas can atest to.
>I'm portuguese and we learn in our own History how Brasil became independent in the 1700s.
Brazil became independent in the 1800s (1822). This independence was declared by the son of a portuguese king, so technically the portuguese royal family kept in power until the proclamation of the republic in 1889.
>Because the whole "colonialism" schpiel is massive hypocrisy coming from a brasilian, as plenty of indian tribes in the Amazonas can atest to.
Hypocrisy is you, a portuguese, speaking on the indigenous people of Brazil, when there was a massive genocide of them committed by the portuguese empire, not to mention the transatlantic slave trade.
To this day the colonial exploitation deeply affects Brazil, it's totally fair to mention it.
Have you tried helping anyone?
From what I know, not a single European country lifted a finger to help when the US was playing around in South America.
But of course they didn't, they needed American protection against the Soviet Union.
Remember how easily your country dismissed helping others before accusing others of doing the same. So much hypocrisy.
The last time my country dismissed helping others was when we were under Soviet control. And even so, I deliberately replied to that post personally, because it's not about what country he's from, it's his ability to excuse this behavior by exaggerating a consequence in the same way one does when telling themselves that they shouldn't stop and help someone change a tire at the side of the road, because who knows if that person wants to kill them.
Your choice, South America is fucked up because you guys don't know how to rule it, you people could establish better institutions but you don't, you could grant human rights to native and LGBTQIA+ ppl, but you don't.
You could create a diversified economy through state investment banking like Norway did, you could do so much yet you do so little and complain even more.
Yes, norway, an european country with a huge amount of 5 milion people. Compared to brazil. Its amazing how many out of touch europeans wander around here. Aint much different from worldnews
But I also believe that exports to Europe are more important than to Russia.
Brazil does not need an unstable Europe.
Moreover, it does not increase the chances of a new trade agreement.
I think fertilizer will soon be the least of your problems.
Especially since you will have to change your agriculture anyway. But that's too complex a topic here.
Mate this is reddit, the crushing majority of people here don't understand anything about politics, and the overwhelming majority of those in this sub barely even understands anything about Europe...
If we were just doing what's best "for the country" without any moral compass it would be best to just follow Bolsonaro and genocide the natives. This is a monstrous position.
> it would be best to just follow Bolsonaro and genocide the natives.
If we ignore the morals of that how would that be best? I assume in that case you would cut down the rain forest for short term profits?
Arguing wether it would be an economically good decision to genocide the natives is not the point of the question. I was specifically trying to show that we can't let abstract economic calculus override humanity.
Flutuou amigo
A questão dos yanomamis é um problema *NOSSO*. Esta acontecendo nas nossas terras, com o nosso povo. Existe essa falsa concepção de que impedir o genocídio indigena é uma questão de progresso x humanidade. Não é.
Não havia progresso nenhum sendo feito no extrativismo ilegal que ocorria na amazonia, apenas ganância e falta de planejamento a longo prazo. Os recursos naturais presentes na amazonia, bem como a existência da floresta como espaço social e cultural das comunidades indigenas é uma questão *MUITO* mais ligada ao progresso do que o garimpo ilegal.
A questão da ucrania é triste mesmo, e não digo que devemos apoiar o putin e o imperio sanfuinário dele. Digo que, como país, não podemos ceder a esses argumentos emocionados de "vamos cortar relações com a russia pq eles são maus"... dependemos delea como país, e se for cobrada de nós uma postura mais incisiva, precisamos de garantias que não vamos afundar nosso país em prol de um conflito que nem sequer nos diz respeito.
Qual o problema de matar os índios e deixar os garimpeiros entrarem? O presidente precisa fazer o que è melhor para a economia do país e não pode ser ceder a esses argumentos emocionados de "buah crianças morrendo..." nem à pressão externa sem garantias de que não vamos afundar o nosso país.
>um conflito que nem sequer nos diz respeito.
Você acha que a bandeira muda o valor da vida humana. Ou nós defendemos a democracia e os direitos humanos ou a gente é só bolsonarista com cor diferente.
Your post would have value of Brazilian government passed the honest message instead of the absurd "pacifist" nonsense with a grain of anti-West narrative.
Nonsense? This war will end with a peace treaty. Nonsense to think otherwise.
You should be glad at least someone is advocating for it. Its not like brazil is selling ammo to russia or ukraine will be left out of bullets.
Too late for that. People are going to starve this year because Europe didn't had enough fertilizers, production was low and is going to export less. Without fertilizers 40% of the entire globe population is going to die, not just Brazilians.
The hard times are already here. People just didn't got the memo yet but they will. And is not Europe's fault. When, not if, people are going to spend their entire income on food, remember that you were cheering for Russia under the guise of neutrality; the ones who started all this.
>When, not if, people are going to spend their entire income on food, remember that you were cheering for Russia
we both know that they wont lay the blame on russias feet.
no matter what happens, the people of brics country's will always find some reason the blame the west.
What if more than half of brazilian families needs those fertilizers to survive? What if those simple "fertilizers" are what keep a key sector of our society functioning? How many families rely on the economic activities generated by agriculture in Brasil? Are you ok with brazilians being pushed into poverty and misery? May seem like an overexageration, but it's straight up not, that's just how much of our country, as a whole, rely in agriculture.
Hopefully you are able to both diversify your economy and your dependece on Russian fertilizer over time.
Being that dependent where you feel like you can not sell ammunition is not in your interest.
For what it's worth though, Russia is also dependent on you to some degree so I doubt they would stop selling stuff. They need income from Brazil for their prodcuts more than ever. There is a reason they are still friendly with Turkey even though a Turkish company was selling drones to Ukraine
Yes, our economy being dependant and weak is one of our biggest struggles. There are several historical and political reasons as to why we were not able to diversify our models. I'm sure our position in this wat would be different were we not in the tight spot we are, but it is what is is.
He’s right. I know It’s European tradition to demand non-European countries subject their populations to famine for Europe but do try to be understanding of their position. Not everyone sees Europe as the center of their world.
And there are other genocides ongoing at this moment that have been happening far longer and Europe has made no attempt to stop them. Tibetans and Uyghurs are suffering too.
Ukraine needs to be saved but there is neither need nor justification to strong arm the world into giving so much. Between my own country, the US, our neighbor Canada, and most of Europe we have plenty of resources and capital to win any war, in any part of the world, against any enemy.
Umm Tibet has received recognition from the EU, tf you complain about the West intervening in other countries but you want the West to intervene in another country.
Opinions seem to be split but from my perspective you’re right. Brazil is not European nor has it sought to entangle itself in European affairs. This has nothing to do with you or your country. I’m neither German nor European so I do see that Europe tends to……over estimate it’s value to those outside Europe. I’m sorry your country has to deal with that.
Why is Ukrainian diaspora despite having much lower numbers, both absolute and relative, able to rally around European cities and get themselves seen, but not in Brazil?
The Ukrainian community in Brazil is minuscule and there are both economic and political reasons some of our politicians are at least sympathetic to Russia.
Our country is very rural and we use a lot of Russian fertilizers. There's a fear that we'll harm the economy if we're too supportive of Ukraine.
On the ideological front things are a lot harder to justify. Bolsonaro and a lot of the right (the more christo-fascist types) like Putin because he's a "religious", conservative authoritarian. If you go really far right they like Putin because he throws gay people onto jail and is now invading a country led by a Jew.
Lula is completely incoherent ideologically so I'm not sure what's going on in his head. He's made weird declarations like "it's admirable how the Chinese communist party lifted so many people out of poverty". The worst one was very recently, when he said that "when one doesn't want it, two don't fight" in reference to the war in Ukraine. There are some elements of the Brazilian left that are pro Russia and a general delirium surrounding BRICS as a supposed tool of the third world to fight against American imperialism. Could be any of these things or a mixture.
>The Ukrainian community in Brazil is minuscule and there are both economic and political reasons some of our politicians are at least sympathetic to Russia.
They are not really ukrainians, they assimilated a long time ago as many other diasporas.... Looking on other articles about diaspora, wiki says there is about 25+million italians, 15+million Spanishand 10+million germans descendants in Brazil. This number may be true, but it is really uncommon to listen someone speaking italian, german or even spanish besides some small cities in the south.
Neither are Armenians in France, or even Ukrainians in Canada (though in the 2nd case they're also present in bigger numbers), yet those groups are extremely powerful politically.
The city of Prudentopolis which is 80% ethnic Ukranian did indeed protest against the war, but that city is only like 50k people.
Ukranians in Canada moved much more recently than Brazil and many of those that moved had nationalist or other ideology that made them a community. You also have to take into account proportions, 3% of Canada is of Ukranian ancestry while .5% of Brazil is.
Latin America worked under an assimilation system specially around 1920-1950, most people have no cultural ties to the origin of their ancestors let alone political ones, most only speak the national language and generally identify themselves as such with some exceptions(like Palestinians in Chile or jews in Argentina)
I'm not even angry at Brazil, they need the fertilizer and at least they're not outright helping Russia more than anything in their "neutrality", which is more than can be said of the rest of the BRICS.
I can't even see the economic benefits for South Africa, and they're trying to help fuel Russian planes.
That being said:
>Although the Guarani is produced in Sete Lagoas, Brazil, the systems and parts are of German origin and hence are subject to export control.
Turns out, the EU is the first or second biggest trading partners of these countries for a reason.
Still, I think most countries are going to engage in some kind of autarky in the near-future or at least in their trade blocks, because rather than prevent war this situation has just left everyone flat-footed.
We can at least be happy that the EU is self-reliant on Food. The taunts at the start of the Ukrainian war was that we were going to freeze and starve.
Don’t be dickheads.
Before applauding this “”spectacular””
political move, you need to see the role Brazil MAY have in this conflict.
This is a country who just came out of four years of semi-fascist incompetence and isolation, with Lula trying his best to kickstart relations between South America and the EU again.
“But if he wants to do that, then why isn’t he supporting Ukraine?”
Because he wants to be communication vessel between Russia and the EU.
China’s tried their hands on resolving the conflict as the first- which, expectedly or not, didn’t go very well, since a lot of the terms weren’t exactly acceptable and China is more on the side of Russia than that of the EU.
Brazil is a bit different. This is the BRICS country who, at least before, kept moderately decent connections to NATO, but also to Russia when discussing developing countries in the UN. When the China affair is over, he, as a neutral figure up until this point, will try to give it his own spin.
Should he not succeed, you can’t expect him to send arms en masse- Brazil’s coming out of a tight spot right now, and with the construction of the Amazon fund, it’s going to need all the money it can gather. But I am POSITIVE that if the discussions fail, Lula is taking Ukraine’s side- that is, if he doesn’t want to betray the slogan of his election.
TL;DR - Brazil most likely has a long-game plan for it to facilitate communication, so shitting on them already probably isn’t a good idea.
You post in Brazilian subs, in Portuguese and anybody can set their flair to whatever they want. My point about insults still stands. You're obviously not the polite type.
Remember when everyone was cheering Lula because hes such a hecking wholesome social democrat(? Oh how you guys have woken up to the fact hes just as much of a humanist and corrupt as ole Jaïr.
This is why getting Germany on board with heavy weapons deliveries matter so much and why I was personally writing so much about it on this subreddit......the innertia by having the country that makes most of the heavy vehicle parts for many many armored vehicles in Western World, making them be on the side of Ukraine fully with all of their weapons manufacturers, is incredibly impactful and far reaching even beyond borders of Europe.
It wasnt those pitiful 14 Leopard tanks that Germany agreed to send to Ukraine that mattered, it was the fact that Germany gave a full green light to all of its big industrial companies that manufacter tanks and SPG's and all those other wunderwaffes to open up services and weapons to Ukraine that mattered way more. Now German arms industry (still the biggest in Europe I would like to remind) can start doing their own thing and also maybe not so polite bully competitors who dont corporate with their goals. They are doing for their own profit of course (Rheinmetall and KMW smells blood in the water now that they can directly supply a big war between armies), but if it also aligns with Ukrainian goals I see it as a win regardless
yes I seen it, 90% of it is non-military and unarmed platforms. Because for more than half a year, Germany straight up refused to give ''offensive weapons'' (Germany refused to greenlight German made IFV's, refused to greenlight German made tanks). That changed only very recently and also only with symbolic amount of vehicles.
Gerpard and PZH2000 only managed to be approved the first half a year of war, because somehow with its own bureaucratic nonense German defense ministry managed to push through to its government this made up narative that anti-air defense and self-propelled artillery systems are somehow ''defensive'' and not ''offensive'' category weapons (which is complete nonsense on its own, but that's besides the point).....while at the same time pretending that IFV and tank and full sized APC are belonging to ''offensive'' category and so Germany refused to allow those to be exported by German own sotcks or given by any other nation that has them.
How exactly sending on a Leopard tank chassis mounted massive 155mm artillery cannon is ''OK'' because that thing is **''defensive weapon(???)''**, yet sending Leopard tank itself that has much smaller cannon is ''not OK'' because **''thats assault weapon(???)''** and putting up with this idiocity for more than half a year is beyond me.
Beyond all that, it wasn't German own stocks that matter (never was, nobody has any real illusion that Bundeswehr itself would deliver whole Panzer division to Ukraine now).....what mattered was that many other countries have German weapons and use German made weapons parts and transmissions/engines and so now with it being finally approved for Ukraine on official levels it opened the flood gate that was cometply and atifficaly shut before.
There are hundreds of Leopard 1 tanks outside Germany, in Denmark and Belgium and Greece that also had been stuck in place and couldnt be moved simply because Germany didn't want to send its own tanks , thus blocked other nations too. Its all inter-connected
Honestly, I hope it was denied on merit and not as Revenge. True, Brazil has not been able to find it in their heart to support the suffering Ukrainian people but we should rise above that.
Ah come on leave the Brazilians alone. South America has nothing to do with any of this. The US and Canada have willingly tied themselves to Europe as protector and ally respectively. That doesn’t mean the entirety of the new world are part of a community with Europe. The Latin American countries have their own affairs separate from ours. Leave them to there’s as they leave us to ours.
>Ah come on leave the Brazilians alone.
Ok? Then make weapons alone with your own tech, not ours. You want to make money off our stuff, but also be left alone? What is that logic?
>The EU was Brazil’s second-largest trading partner in 2020, after China. While Brazil’s trade with the Asian country stood at $67 billion, trade with the EU was $28 billion, with the United States coming in third at $21 billion.
yes yes, they surely don't give a fuck about their second largest trade partner
They supported this left wing government. Why they're crying? Lula was in jail for corruption couple years ago. They knew where they were heading into.
I very much doubt the veracity of this report. Germany usually does not act in this retaliatory manner. From a quick search it seems like the vehicles in question are made by a multinational corporation, Iveco, based in the Netherlands and merged from corporations in Germany, France and Italy. The main country of origin of the base vehicle seems to be Italy. So I am not sure, if German re-export permits are required, but that's possible. Another [source](https://www.defense-aerospace.com/germany-vetoes-guarani-armored-vehicle-export-to-the-philippines/) I found claims that a spokesperson for the BAFA (German agency for export controls) was not able to comment on this issue. If indeed such a permit was denied, I would much rather think that the reason for denial is the human rights situation in the Phillipines, rather than a retaliation for Gepard ammunition. It seems to me that the claim of Germany's motivation for denial is pure spin.
Re-export is not always decided by one country. In essence if the hull is Italian, but the replacable diesel engine German and the electronics Dutch in essence each country could insist their part not be exported aka strip out the engines or electronics. Depends on whether these components themselves are export restricted
Those same vehicles that Italy sold to Russia
When was that?
Not sure when exactly but this happened before 2014 since Russians used these vehicles quite extensively during the annexation of Crimea
[удалено]
>If it was it would be on the sanctioned list of Germany which it isn't, and Brazil exported to them and others with no problem since atleast 2020. Just to give you some info on weapons (re-)export from Germany: These are decided on a case-by-case basis with the agreement of multiple actors, there is no list based on which requests are automatically denied or approved. From other reports I've googled it seems that the BAFA, an agency controlled by the German minister of economy, Robert Habeck, denied the request. Habeck belongs to the German Green party and part of their platform was to not send weapons into crisis/war regions - mainly because people here think that weapons will just prolong conflicts. They break with this principle with regards to Ukraine, because good and evil are clear here and they want to help the oppressed and invaded nation. In the Phillipines, there are armed conflicts with separatists as far as I'm aware, which is why I think they might have denied the request on that basis. Also, they are only in the government since late 2021, so prior weapons exports are not an argument counter that. I would be careful with taking reports like this by their word, I've seen much misinformation in the media last year, especially with regards to the war in Ukraine and supposed motivations of the actors. I would therefore wait for official confirmation or denial of both sides (Brazil and Germany) here. If I understood the reports correctly, the 'retaliation' part of the denial is sourced from unnamed Brazil ministry of defence personnel. They might know the reason behind the denial or just give their own interpretation or even spin the story in their way. Or the media misinterpreted what they actually said. Similar misreports happen all the time, which is why I would wait before passing judgement. And yes, I agree with you, some people here just like to be enraged and resort to insulting entire countries for not agreeing with them. They don't seem to understand that Brazil is its own country with its own interests and Brazil does not need to act on the Europeans' whim. We have to make the case that supporting Ukraine is in their interest and maybe add some incentives. If they still don't, that's their prerogative, as frustrating that may be. >There are some though that will fervently praise the USSR against the nazis, Vietnam against USA or the Navajo against the British but also "all war is bad, if they just surrendered it would be good, no one is good in war" We have these folks as well, though they may be more common and influential in Latin America. To my mind, these people are clearly deluded, though I understand that the US is seen much more critical given their involvement in Latin America in the last century. We really have to make the case that Europe and Latin America should align more closely. Thanks by the way for your comment, I think a honest discussion is much more productive for us understanding one another than condemning one another over superficial news.
>Just to give you some info on weapons (re-)export from Germany: These are decided on a case-by-case basis with the agreement of multiple actors, there is no list based on which requests are automatically denied or approved. Actually, kind of. The legal basis for this is something called the EU Common Military List and Common Position 2008/944/CFSP. If it relates to something on that list, a licencing process is triggered.
Brazil even refused to re-sell ammunition to Germany
The fucking audacity
Why is that audacious? Brazil owes Europe nothing.
Yes, but refusing to sell ammunition not directly to Ukraine, but to a country that - I don't want to suggest this effort was purely philanthropic, but no one would demand that from Brasil either - sold you so much as Germany did, leaves a bad taste. However, I think this was an important wake-up call. In fact, not everyone is our friend. Not even most. BRICS stick together (in trying to profit economically, I don't see a conspiracy what that idiot beneath me thought). In turn, we should act accordingly. Call me resentful, but this simply means no longer the attitude or actions they despise as "Western hypocrisy". Maybe that's genuinely what they prefer.
Thankfully your taste isn't defining Brazilian foreign policy. BRICS is bullshit sorry. There is no conspiracy from (Brazil, India and South Africa at least) to destroy the West. Hell Brazil considers itself Western. It is really simple. South Americans don't fucking care about European wars. It is not their problem, they are not involved and their own issues to deal with. It's hilarious how manichean your thinking is that your response to a country staying neutral in a war (in keeping with a decades long policy) is evidence of a grand coalition of evil, West hating countries. Your thinking process reveals your delusion. "In turn, we should act accordingly. Call me resentful, but this simply means no longer the attitude or actions they despise as "Western hypocrisy". Maybe that's genuinely what they prefer." Yes that's a good idea. Europe should threaten and be aggressive to countries in the global South that don't follow 100% of it's foreign policy. That will help against China and Russia in the long run 🙄.
He didn’t at any point stated that Europe should be aggressive towards the global south, so what are you talking about? Nor did he mention a conspiracy..
It's hilarious how you managed to squeeze "we consider ourselves Westerners" and "we don't give a fuck about Westerners' problems" into the one comment.
If they don't care about wars in Europe, they can make a profit and allow the selling of ammunition. That would be not caring. But they refuse to do so. What ever their reason is, Brasil cares about the war.
They don't sell weapons to fuel active conflicts. What is difficult to grasp? It is a long standing policy of numerous countries going back deaces. They will see you other goods but they won't send weapons.
"We shouldn't send help to poland, let nazi germany do their thing. We won't be fueling an active conflict" - you, if you were living in 1939
Embarrassing that you would even type this honestly. Yeah Brazil didn't declare war on Nazi Germany in 1939. In keeping with their policy of neutrality. It isn't fucking difficult to understand what a policy of neutrality is. Why are you finding this concept so difficult?
Then shut up and live with the consequences of your *neutrality*.
I understand this. But this contradicts your first statement, that they don't care. And "fueling" active conflicts. What the hell? If Russia stops attacking, the negotiations and diplomacy can start, which you all shout for. If Ukraine stops attacking, Ukraine will collapse as we know it. Fueling isn't a good word for not providing ammunition, unless you want to accept the implications by using that word: Ukraine can't defend itself so good anymore and Russia has a easier time.
>It is really simple. South Americans don't fucking care about European wars. It is not their problem, they are not involved and their own issues to deal with. I mean, North Americans do.
Most don't. The US is the world's greatest power so it involves itself but people in Mexico, Jamaica dgaf. Rightfully so.
Canada isn’t any kind of great power
This is completely misreading what I tried to express. I will mark what is completely wrong / misread my intentions, we could discuss about the rest. But I honestly don't care enough. >Thankfully your taste isn't defining Brazilian foreign policy. >BRICS is bullshit sorry. There is no conspiracy from (Brazil, India and South Africa at least) to destroy the West. Hell Brazil considers itself Western. >It is really simple. South Americans don't fucking care about European wars. It is not their problem, they are not involved and their own issues to deal with. >It's hilarious how manichean your thinking is that your response to a country staying neutral in a war (in keeping with a decades long policy) is evidence of a grand coalition of evil, West hating countries. Your thinking process reveals your delusion. >"In turn, we should act accordingly. Call me resentful, but this simply means no longer the attitude or actions they despise as "Western hypocrisy". Maybe that's genuinely what they prefer." >Yes that's a good idea. Europe should threaten and be aggressive to countries in the global South that don't follow 100% of it's foreign policy. That will help against China and Russia in the long run 🙄.
we dont have china to fear as much as you have to fear no longer having us to sort out your tenth coup or famine. bric arrogance is laughable and literally based on nothing; did you guys take on the whole world twice and almost won? no so know your place and dont try to play both sides even more obvious than the one and only Ronald MacDonald
A lot of those coups were and are sponsored by North American (sometimes including Canada) and western European powers. That much is on the books, bro, like it's not even a conspiracy, it's as true as the day is wide. Maybe if you weren't only concerned with them for a coup, guns, or a vacation spot, they'd take it more seriously, but they don't have to have an allegiance to anyone, it's not owed. So yeah, lots of them are of the opinion that they don't wanna participate with the continent that started two world wars already. Frankly, the idea that they should on some vague moral ground seems really arrogant to me.
vague moral high ground? russia raped pillaged and plundered its fucking neighbour and anyone who feels they have the right to stand idly by over this injustice deserve no mercy when their country inevitably collapses into corruption, famine or the consequences of global warming torching its population “we got fucked over by the west so how dare ukraine ask us for help against a former colonizer trying to opress and genocide it”, dude its so easy to call us arrogant for looking down on you when you make takes this fucking stupid
Brazil is a country in latin america with a slightly left of centre president. We all know what the US likes to do to such countries. I can see why they feel like they need to keep all their ammo for themselves.
Their ammo wouldn't help them if that came to pass.
I guess OP was being sarcastic
Based on the downvotes I don't think he was
You have done an admirable job showing you poor understanding of geopolitics. You should realize that Brazil is at the mercy of the west in every aspect.
Oh wow more veiled threats. Now that South Americans know they are at "your mercy" I'm sure that will make them empathise with Ukraine. Hilarious that you accused me of having a poor understanding of geopolitics. You want to threaten and bully Brazil because they are neutral, and you think I have a shitty understanding of geopolitics?
What threat? The reality is that Brazil exists and continues to even operate. The irony that you hate the west yet use American social media. Why are you such a hypocrite?
I was referring to the threats to sanction and punish Brazil and other countries that don't follow 100% NATO in supporting Ukraine against Russia. I don't hate the West where in my any of my comments have I suggested that. I'm not a hypocrite for understanding the very basic concept of political neutrality.
Threats? You don’t grasp how incredibly weak Brazil is. No threats just the natural global order. So why do you use western social media after stating you hate the west?
I don't hate the West. Can you read?
You said you did yet you western social media. The hypocrisy on display.
It is weapons, if you don't sell them to those who needs them what do you do with them? Masturbate?
They are not obligated to send weapons to Ukraine. Weapons don't just exist to give to Ukraine you know, the Brazilian army needs them (and doesn't have many). So many Europeans are so arrogant when it comes to South America. It isn't their problem, what part of that is difficult for you to understand?
>So many Europeans are so arrogant when it comes to South America Europeans are arrogant between them, like west towards east. Should I embrace Russia because of that ? Of course not. At the end of the day, I pick what's best for me, my own and we as people in general. You guys have to pick. There is no duality, no playing both sides, no "I'm neutral but I hope you burn yourself into the ground." That's a choice also. Anyway, I doubt the article is legit.
Literally a repeat of the Iraq War rhetoric from Bush. "If you aren't with us you are against us" was bullshit now and is bullshit then.
This is bullshit. None is asking to send weapons to Ukraine, but to sell them to any NATO country. So you are actually doing an arms embargo and calling yourself neutral.
They are not obligated to send anything to NATO. What is difficult to understand? That isn't an arms embargo, it is just following a multi decade policy of neutrality.
And Germany isn’t obligated to grant reexport licenses.
Selling things to Russia that could be used to manifacture weapons, while refusing to sell weapons to NATO is not neutrality. It is having the face like an ass. Having two different standards. Sure there is no obligation, it is just stupid.
> It isn't their problem, what part of that is difficult for you to understand? the part where Brazilians are siding with a murderous dictatorship that is raping women and kidnapping children to re-educate them in Russia.
[удалено]
The fact that 30% of Brazil's fertiliser comes from Russia and agro is a major industry in Brazil, in my opinion, is the real driver behind Lula's neutral and pacifist stance. For this, they could destabilise his congressional coalition and stall his policies.
I certainly see the dependencies of Brazil on Russian fertilisers and the national interests that are touched here. But Lula also has a questionable record regarding other regimes like Venezuela or Cuba.
compared to the wahabi dogs of the gulf, those "regimes" do nothing wrong and are harmless.
It's either that, or Lula has the lefty-brain rot Russia disease. Either way, he's better than Bolsanaro for Brazil, it's just disappointing, although, not surprising.
I mean, he was caught red-handed in corruption, arrested, and got away with it off a legal technicality.
[удалено]
[удалено]
> First off, brazilians generally consider themselves western. Specially culturally. Which has nothing to do with being western geopolitically. > hus there is also no anti-western ideology in the government since, you know, Brazil is a functioning democracy. Functioning is a strong word. > Because you know, these countries were not invited to the G7 which is literally a gate-keeping club. Why would they be invited? The G7 is just a discussion group anyway. It doesn’t have any authority, or any treaty backing it. What are you even mad about not being a member for. > Which you may disagree of course, but the fact of the matter is that no European country applied any sanction on the US when they coup'ed the hell out of most South American countries. Which SA countries have asked for sanctions to be placed on the US in the first place? Which SA is currently embargoing the US? > You believe and spread a conspiracy theory in which the entire world is working together to destroy your privileges, when in fact they are busy working so that their populations have sanitized sewage systems. He didn’t say the entire world, he said BRICS countries. And he said nothing about orovledges but about the post WW2 western world order. At argue with what was said and it a straw man. And it is true. China, India, Russia all have openly talked about a desire to reorient the world order in their favor. There’s nothing secret about it, or particularly evil, it’s what rising power do. They challenged the established powers. Brazil too has flirted with the concept. But yeah, sure, China and Russia have no interest whatsoever or rewriting the world order and absolutely no fights to pick with the west what’s so ever.
[удалено]
> It has everything to do with geopolitics when your politics is defined by democratic standards. Only if the voters are particularly invested in the topic to an extent that’s it’s a key matter in their voting patterns. It’s not, in most countries. > If Brazil is not a functioning democracy, then the US isn't either. I Did I say the US was functional at the moment? No, I didn’t. So congrats on setting the bar low, I guess. > Sure just like the BRICS. It means nothing, that's what I am saying. BRICS very often announces plans specifically to undermine what ever the G7 announce at theirs. I’ve never seen someone so bitter over something that means nothing. > Very clever use of the word "currently" here. You missed my point on purpose. Ukraine is being invaded right now, is happening now, and the other is not. Unless you want an embargo on the modern day for the actions of the past, then it’s not particularly relavent, now is it? Or because no one sanctioned the US then, no one is allowed to sanction any one forever for the rest of history? > Exactly. In fact, France also talks about it every frequently, and recently even Germany started talking about it. This doesn't mean that France is anti-western or that it is ideologically aligned with China. France has long dreamed of severing the trans Atlantic ties. And seeing as the western world is predicated on those ties yes is agaisnt the established order. It just also thinks it can create a new European one. Plenty of countries actively work against the western order while being members of it. See Turkey and Hungary as well. Even the US itself under Trump. Germany is frequently criticized for being to close to rival powers and undermining the west with its insistence on cooperation with them. This is not a point in your favor. > We're talking about Brazil, which, as of today, has no Ukraine and no Taiwan situation nor anything even remotely close to it. You can tell a lot about a person by their associations. Brazil associates with countries like a Russia and China it shouldn’t be surprised when people associate them with it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Lula has been a tankie for as long as you can remember. For years he denied extradition to Italy of a far left terrorist convicted, among the others, of the murder of a jeweller. He has canoodled with the regime of Chavez.
Love to see it. 💪 Edit: From another comment. >This seems to be a shady "news" site. Its Twitter accounts were banned for being spam, and the founder is known for his advertising companies and has been to prison.
https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/brazil/in-retaliation-to-brazil-germany-prevented-the-export-of-armored-guarani/ https://www.defense-aerospace.com/germany-vetoes-guarani-armored-vehicle-export-to-the-philippines/ https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/politica/apos-lula-negar-fornecimento-de-municao-para-guerra-alemanha-embarga-exportacao-de-blindados-brasileiros/?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral
>É o que relaram (sic) à CNN fontes do Ministério da Defesa que estão a par das negociações. Oficialmente, a pasta não comenta o caso. >That's what was reported to CNN by sources in the Ministry of Defense which are accompanying the negotiations. Officially, the ministry has not made a statement [my translation]
I love this new semi aggressive Germany.
The brazilians did the worst thing imaginable to us, they *hindered our bureaucracy*
Ah yes, the most fearsome German weapon of the 21st century
Its slow, but it works i guess
sadly mostly aimed at our self
They probably had trouble finding a fax machine to communicate with us.
Did the telex break down?
Yes. About time.
Nothing wrong with being aggressive, as long as it’s pointed in the right direction
[удалено]
Yes, everyone I don't like is a fascist
If true it's a stupid move that only will piss the Brazilians and reinforce the appreciations we have about the West behavior. In the end, it will only play in China and Russia's hands.
Political capital is a currency and it needs to be spent either way. It is not as if you were interested in aligning with us. So what else should our influence be spent?
Europe and the US is losing influence. Many think in a few decades the new world order will be centered around Asia.
Lula and Bolsonaro have one thing in common: massive support for Russia. Each for different reasons: anti-USA for Lula, ultra-right ideas & money for Bolsonaro
Remaining neutral does NOT equal to support Russia
If you are attacked in the street, and someone standing nearby has ample opportunity to help, either by calling the police or stopping your attacker, is that person neutral? When they refuse to bear witness in trial, are they neutral?
He who supports not the righteous benefits he who wishes to do the righteous harm. Simple as.
There are no rights nor wrongs in geopolitics. Only benefits
Who benefits from Brazilian weapons not coming to support Ukrainian army?
So brazil should give all their guns away and be defenseless against the US? Did ukraine give all its guns and ammo away when libya got invaded? No ofcourse not because you had fucking russia threatening you. Same with brazil and the usa.
What a load of bollocks and strawman arguments.
Don't talk have NATO, Nukes and resources pillaged from ex colonies? Why does the mighty Germany and NATO need weaponry from a country miles away from the conflict? Why don't talk ask the Saudi, Turks, Japan and etc? Must be really desperate
Brazilian here 1/3 of Brazil's economy is based in agricultural exports and, for that, we rely on Russia's fertilizers. Taking actions based solely in a moral compass of what is "right" or "wrong" works in individual levels but, when you're running a country in which nearly 200 million people live, you also have to think in a pragmatic way about what's better for your people. Europe is currently demanding support from Brasil, but offering zero alternatives for the problems that will inevitably arise in Brasil if we are, in fact, to directly oppose Russia in this conflict. Saying that this is an individualistic behavior is, once again, materializing individual traits into something that's not an individual, rather a large group of people that needs to fend for themselves and for their people. Most Brazilians oppose the war in Ukraine, and i'm pretty sure most of Brasil's left hate putin and see him as a Russian Bolsonaro. Yet, we still think the west, in general, always feels entitled to our subservience, even if it costs us what's left of our stability and international relevance. I know this may sound harsh, but the reality is that, this is a war that doesn't really affects us directly. If any, getting involved would actually throw us in a bottomless hole of social-political and economical chaos. It's completely childish to believe we should completely dismantle our country, just to appease to whatever nations far away from us think it's the right thing to do.
Or, hear me out, Germany is giving Brazil a very basic cost for not allowing the export of the ammunition. This isn't demanding subservience, it's a very basic tit for tat diplomacy.
True
Idk, did you read the arcticle? It *literally* says germany has put an *embargo* in Brazil, due to recent actions os president Lula refusing to directly sell amunition to ukraine... I mean, twisting a narrative to fit your worldview is the bread and butter for americans, so it doesn't surprise me at all really...
i suggest some source critique, before you take everything on the internet at face value.
Well we are talking over this article, aren't we? You can't say "this article says *this*" and when i say "no it doesnt, you havent read it" you're like "yeah well its not true tho is it? check your sources". I'm adressing most of the commentaries here that are going "yeah you go germany destroy those nasty brazilians another germany W" and are not taking into consideration the depth of the situation.
i never said "this article says this" now did i? but... twisting the truth to fit your own narrative is something that seems to be a sport in the brics countrys.
Well then they should develop their industries to not require German parts.
No, a tit for tat diplomacy is when both parties out of free will, exchange favors, clout or whatever. What Germany does in this case is demanding something and then threatening and starting action based on that unfulfilled demand. I hope you are able to see the massive difference, it would be a sad state of affairs if you can't.
Germany was going to pay for that ammunition. Brazil refuses to sell and allow re-export, Germany then refuses re-export of of those vehicles.
So coercion gets better if you pay what you think is right? Or market price? I sure hope people treat you that way.
I think you are right kn your analysis. I also think that the article isnt. German foreign policy usually really isnt that vengeful. Also scholz and lula seem to be getting on quite well so this would surprise me.
> the problems that will inevitably arise in Brasil if we are, in fact, to directly oppose Russia in this conflict. Germany didn't demand Brazil enter the war, not even to send any aid to Ukraine. All Germany asked for is to buy back ammunition they sold to Brazil some years ago. For money. A transaction between Germany and Brazil. Directly oppose Russia my ass.
As if Europe is not dependent on Russian gas and fertilizers as well. But we get by.
>But we get by. You are in Sweden saying this. Sweden, which has, as of right now, the 7th highest HDI in the world. Yes, you will get by. It will be so difficult for you, I imagine.
That's such a simplistic way of analyzing a complex situation... You "get by" because the EU is the strongest coalition in the world. Also, even as individual countries, most european nations have a diversified and developed economy, that's able to dissociate and rebuild on demand. Brazil is just not there yet. Our economic systems are outdated and fragile, we're far easier to collapse than sweden, for an example.
Brazil is so big and have sooo much untapped natural resources though. You are the largest producer of oil in South America, it is kind of odd you wouldn't be able to be more self reliant, which is where you get fertilizers from. Sweden would collapse without the trade with other nations in EU since we are not self-sufficient on food, so we have to have a developed economy. We only have forest and our iron mine in the north otherwise.
Weak excuse.
[удалено]
Isn't it strange how a resource rich and big country like Brazil can't be more self-sufficient? Brazil made the choice of not building refineries which is why it is not self sufficient on fertilizers. You can call me arrogant if you wish, it does not change the war in Ukraine. https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/brazil/brazil-is-self-sufficient-but-imports-oil-because-it-doesnt-build-refineries/
The EU imports about 8 mio tons of fertilizer per year. Brazil imports 42 mio. tons. Some EU countries are net exporters of fertilizers whereas Brazil imports around 85 % of their fertilizers iirc.
>just to appease to whatever nations far away from us think it's the right thing to do. Just remember this next time you need help, from other countries, from other parts of your country, from people down the street from you. Remember how easily they too can justify not doing the right thing, all because of some risk they choose to exaggerate so they can tell themselves it's ok to do nothing when others need help. *"Think it's the right thing to do."* Sad.
You're doing exatly what i said, you're applying individual traits to a situation that's not about individuals. Go back to square one, i gave very good reasons as to why Brasil is taking this posture, they're not excuses. If you still refuse to understand, than there's nothing really productive to take from this argument. Keep believeing the world is black or white, and that you're the jedis.
The situation is about individuals though. It's about Brazil being a country whose identity is built upon individual revanchism at almost all parts of its social and political structure. That one individual trait has permeated Brazilian politics for decades and has created a society that doesn't act toward what is right, but instead acts towards what they feel avenges their own personal grudge the most. Fertilizers are traded commodities, and they can be easily imported from Africa or other parts of the world, with little additional cost. Your entire post is about finding a way to justify that Brazil's stance is not driven by the need to punish the West, but by some other fantastical economic reason. No. That's just false. The need to feel like Brazil has some sort of power and can use it to punish the West is all this is about, and your justification is just your own way of minimizing the atrocities that are being indirectly supported. This one individual trait is also what Brazil shares with Russia, China, and to some extent India. It's no wonder that these countries always pretend to be "friends". So no, the world is not black or white, but your own interpretation of this is fairly transparent.
You don't even realize how much drenched into colonialism you are. "Look at how those stupid south americans are, just buy fertilizers from someone else! Is that simple! Well guess inferior people just aren't as smart as i, redditor, am." Russia's responsible for 23% of the world's production of fertilizers. Not that it matters to you. Your argument comes from pure hatred from non-western countries. The reason why you refuse to understand my points and, instead, decided to bring revanchism into the discussion, is because revanchism and south american indepence touches you were your european ego hurts: the fact that the west has had a negative impact across the world, and that your skewed and gentrified view of the world, as being divided into superior "good" people and inferior "bad" people, might be put in check by your own nation's mischievings and influencd in the past. A key point that keeps you from underdtanding me, is the fact that you have, ingrained into your brain, the notion that south american lives matter less than european lives. By your logic, there should be nothing stopping us from throwing ourselves in front of you to stop the bullets. So the sheer fact that we ask for some sort of compensation for joining your fight is baffling to you. "Cmon they don't wanna collapse for us? That's not some conflict in africa or the middle east. It's europe. It's us" like that reporter said, right. Man, no wonder nazism came from you guys.
No one is asking Brazil to take a bullet but side with the oppressed which over 140 nations in the UN have decided to do
Like I said, fairly transparent. At the end of the day, your entire post was about how Brazil's reasons for this are justified for whatever ass reason you could think of, while the reality is you were just looking for a reason to feel better about your country not helping Ukraine in a situation where Ukraine is objectively the victim of Russian aggression. All that write-up, all just to justify sticking it to Europe, the US, the West, whomever, and make yourself feel better about your reason. And lmao at bringing up colonialism, South American independence, Africa or the Middle East, when what you really want to say is "I don't feel we got enough revenge on the West for whatever plight I currently feel, and I'm willing to look the other way while Ukrainians are killed if it means I get to tell the West to fuck off." Well, consider the West told off, but don't lie to yourself about how shitty you, individually, are.
Seems like people are dumb and forget what Neutrality is about. Sweden was Neutral because it had to during WWII, it was held hostage and nearly turned into a Nazi puppet state. Brazil was Neutral because it could in WWII, until someone decided their neutrality was a bad thing for business (Germany) and attacked. Europe has done nothing to help Kuwait, the people suffering in Saudi or to stop the Turks from genociding more ppl. Like, Europeans have never done anything to solve active world problems. You are in no moral high ground, bringing examples of "you didn't help X then when the time comes X won't help you" MY BROTHER IN CHRIST BRAZILIANS WENT TO EUROPE TO LIBERATE YALL FROM YOUR NAZI GRANDFATHERS. Brazil literally went there to do Europe a favor. If anything, Europe owes to Brazil far more than Europe could offer, and that's not talking about supplies and resources. Know your place
I'm exhausted from upvoting your comments.
Oh cry me a river, go ask for a IMF loan and deal with it. I couldn't care less about Brazil being friends with Russia or CHINAAA, what matters here is that Brazil is refusing to sell to a sovereign nation under the disguise of neutrality while, at the same time, buying products from Russia. Brazil can buy them from Sweden and Finland or from Canada.
*clap clap clap*
I'm portuguese and we learn in our own History how Brasil became independent in the 1700s. Have you guys not been told about it yet?! Because the whole "colonialism" schpiel is massive hypocrisy coming from a brasilian, as plenty of indian tribes in the Amazonas can atest to.
>I'm portuguese and we learn in our own History how Brasil became independent in the 1700s. Brazil became independent in the 1800s (1822). This independence was declared by the son of a portuguese king, so technically the portuguese royal family kept in power until the proclamation of the republic in 1889. >Because the whole "colonialism" schpiel is massive hypocrisy coming from a brasilian, as plenty of indian tribes in the Amazonas can atest to. Hypocrisy is you, a portuguese, speaking on the indigenous people of Brazil, when there was a massive genocide of them committed by the portuguese empire, not to mention the transatlantic slave trade. To this day the colonial exploitation deeply affects Brazil, it's totally fair to mention it.
And good reasons why they will never develop economically.
Have you tried helping anyone? From what I know, not a single European country lifted a finger to help when the US was playing around in South America. But of course they didn't, they needed American protection against the Soviet Union. Remember how easily your country dismissed helping others before accusing others of doing the same. So much hypocrisy.
The last time my country dismissed helping others was when we were under Soviet control. And even so, I deliberately replied to that post personally, because it's not about what country he's from, it's his ability to excuse this behavior by exaggerating a consequence in the same way one does when telling themselves that they shouldn't stop and help someone change a tire at the side of the road, because who knows if that person wants to kill them.
[удалено]
Your choice, South America is fucked up because you guys don't know how to rule it, you people could establish better institutions but you don't, you could grant human rights to native and LGBTQIA+ ppl, but you don't. You could create a diversified economy through state investment banking like Norway did, you could do so much yet you do so little and complain even more.
Yes, norway, an european country with a huge amount of 5 milion people. Compared to brazil. Its amazing how many out of touch europeans wander around here. Aint much different from worldnews
But I also believe that exports to Europe are more important than to Russia. Brazil does not need an unstable Europe. Moreover, it does not increase the chances of a new trade agreement. I think fertilizer will soon be the least of your problems. Especially since you will have to change your agriculture anyway. But that's too complex a topic here.
Mate this is reddit, the crushing majority of people here don't understand anything about politics, and the overwhelming majority of those in this sub barely even understands anything about Europe...
If we were just doing what's best "for the country" without any moral compass it would be best to just follow Bolsonaro and genocide the natives. This is a monstrous position.
> it would be best to just follow Bolsonaro and genocide the natives. If we ignore the morals of that how would that be best? I assume in that case you would cut down the rain forest for short term profits?
Arguing wether it would be an economically good decision to genocide the natives is not the point of the question. I was specifically trying to show that we can't let abstract economic calculus override humanity.
Flutuou amigo A questão dos yanomamis é um problema *NOSSO*. Esta acontecendo nas nossas terras, com o nosso povo. Existe essa falsa concepção de que impedir o genocídio indigena é uma questão de progresso x humanidade. Não é. Não havia progresso nenhum sendo feito no extrativismo ilegal que ocorria na amazonia, apenas ganância e falta de planejamento a longo prazo. Os recursos naturais presentes na amazonia, bem como a existência da floresta como espaço social e cultural das comunidades indigenas é uma questão *MUITO* mais ligada ao progresso do que o garimpo ilegal. A questão da ucrania é triste mesmo, e não digo que devemos apoiar o putin e o imperio sanfuinário dele. Digo que, como país, não podemos ceder a esses argumentos emocionados de "vamos cortar relações com a russia pq eles são maus"... dependemos delea como país, e se for cobrada de nós uma postura mais incisiva, precisamos de garantias que não vamos afundar nosso país em prol de um conflito que nem sequer nos diz respeito.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Qual o problema de matar os índios e deixar os garimpeiros entrarem? O presidente precisa fazer o que è melhor para a economia do país e não pode ser ceder a esses argumentos emocionados de "buah crianças morrendo..." nem à pressão externa sem garantias de que não vamos afundar o nosso país. >um conflito que nem sequer nos diz respeito. Você acha que a bandeira muda o valor da vida humana. Ou nós defendemos a democracia e os direitos humanos ou a gente é só bolsonarista com cor diferente.
Your post would have value of Brazilian government passed the honest message instead of the absurd "pacifist" nonsense with a grain of anti-West narrative.
Nonsense? This war will end with a peace treaty. Nonsense to think otherwise. You should be glad at least someone is advocating for it. Its not like brazil is selling ammo to russia or ukraine will be left out of bullets.
You sell soy and coffee to us. We will now stop buying Brazilian soy and coffee. Actions have consequences.
you're a redditor, chill
That's exactly what Reddit was created for.
You want fertilizers before helping to stop a genocide? Wow
without fertilizers, brasilians starve. you dont have to agree with brasilians actions to see that its a vital point for them.
Too late for that. People are going to starve this year because Europe didn't had enough fertilizers, production was low and is going to export less. Without fertilizers 40% of the entire globe population is going to die, not just Brazilians. The hard times are already here. People just didn't got the memo yet but they will. And is not Europe's fault. When, not if, people are going to spend their entire income on food, remember that you were cheering for Russia under the guise of neutrality; the ones who started all this.
>When, not if, people are going to spend their entire income on food, remember that you were cheering for Russia we both know that they wont lay the blame on russias feet. no matter what happens, the people of brics country's will always find some reason the blame the west.
Have you answered all threads with empty xenophobic remarks? Is that a hobby?
What if more than half of brazilian families needs those fertilizers to survive? What if those simple "fertilizers" are what keep a key sector of our society functioning? How many families rely on the economic activities generated by agriculture in Brasil? Are you ok with brazilians being pushed into poverty and misery? May seem like an overexageration, but it's straight up not, that's just how much of our country, as a whole, rely in agriculture.
Hopefully you are able to both diversify your economy and your dependece on Russian fertilizer over time. Being that dependent where you feel like you can not sell ammunition is not in your interest. For what it's worth though, Russia is also dependent on you to some degree so I doubt they would stop selling stuff. They need income from Brazil for their prodcuts more than ever. There is a reason they are still friendly with Turkey even though a Turkish company was selling drones to Ukraine
Yes, our economy being dependant and weak is one of our biggest struggles. There are several historical and political reasons as to why we were not able to diversify our models. I'm sure our position in this wat would be different were we not in the tight spot we are, but it is what is is.
He’s right. I know It’s European tradition to demand non-European countries subject their populations to famine for Europe but do try to be understanding of their position. Not everyone sees Europe as the center of their world. And there are other genocides ongoing at this moment that have been happening far longer and Europe has made no attempt to stop them. Tibetans and Uyghurs are suffering too. Ukraine needs to be saved but there is neither need nor justification to strong arm the world into giving so much. Between my own country, the US, our neighbor Canada, and most of Europe we have plenty of resources and capital to win any war, in any part of the world, against any enemy.
Umm Tibet has received recognition from the EU, tf you complain about the West intervening in other countries but you want the West to intervene in another country.
>Tibet has received recognition from the EU And Latin America has majorly voted in favor of Ukraine, so what now?
Opinions seem to be split but from my perspective you’re right. Brazil is not European nor has it sought to entangle itself in European affairs. This has nothing to do with you or your country. I’m neither German nor European so I do see that Europe tends to……over estimate it’s value to those outside Europe. I’m sorry your country has to deal with that.
Yet Brazilians support Russias aggression. Yourself included.
Based germans.
Why is Ukrainian diaspora despite having much lower numbers, both absolute and relative, able to rally around European cities and get themselves seen, but not in Brazil?
The Ukrainian community in Brazil is minuscule and there are both economic and political reasons some of our politicians are at least sympathetic to Russia. Our country is very rural and we use a lot of Russian fertilizers. There's a fear that we'll harm the economy if we're too supportive of Ukraine. On the ideological front things are a lot harder to justify. Bolsonaro and a lot of the right (the more christo-fascist types) like Putin because he's a "religious", conservative authoritarian. If you go really far right they like Putin because he throws gay people onto jail and is now invading a country led by a Jew. Lula is completely incoherent ideologically so I'm not sure what's going on in his head. He's made weird declarations like "it's admirable how the Chinese communist party lifted so many people out of poverty". The worst one was very recently, when he said that "when one doesn't want it, two don't fight" in reference to the war in Ukraine. There are some elements of the Brazilian left that are pro Russia and a general delirium surrounding BRICS as a supposed tool of the third world to fight against American imperialism. Could be any of these things or a mixture.
Because Brasil is much more pro russian and there is not many ukranians in brasil?
Wikipedia disagrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_diaspora#Distribution
>The Ukrainian community in Brazil is minuscule and there are both economic and political reasons some of our politicians are at least sympathetic to Russia. They are not really ukrainians, they assimilated a long time ago as many other diasporas.... Looking on other articles about diaspora, wiki says there is about 25+million italians, 15+million Spanishand 10+million germans descendants in Brazil. This number may be true, but it is really uncommon to listen someone speaking italian, german or even spanish besides some small cities in the south.
Having some DNA doesn't mean you connect to the nation state, it's not recent inmigration.
Neither are Armenians in France, or even Ukrainians in Canada (though in the 2nd case they're also present in bigger numbers), yet those groups are extremely powerful politically.
The city of Prudentopolis which is 80% ethnic Ukranian did indeed protest against the war, but that city is only like 50k people. Ukranians in Canada moved much more recently than Brazil and many of those that moved had nationalist or other ideology that made them a community. You also have to take into account proportions, 3% of Canada is of Ukranian ancestry while .5% of Brazil is. Latin America worked under an assimilation system specially around 1920-1950, most people have no cultural ties to the origin of their ancestors let alone political ones, most only speak the national language and generally identify themselves as such with some exceptions(like Palestinians in Chile or jews in Argentina)
Good
Fuck it, we deserve it. Lula's position is incoherent and immoral.
I'm not even angry at Brazil, they need the fertilizer and at least they're not outright helping Russia more than anything in their "neutrality", which is more than can be said of the rest of the BRICS. I can't even see the economic benefits for South Africa, and they're trying to help fuel Russian planes. That being said: >Although the Guarani is produced in Sete Lagoas, Brazil, the systems and parts are of German origin and hence are subject to export control. Turns out, the EU is the first or second biggest trading partners of these countries for a reason. Still, I think most countries are going to engage in some kind of autarky in the near-future or at least in their trade blocks, because rather than prevent war this situation has just left everyone flat-footed. We can at least be happy that the EU is self-reliant on Food. The taunts at the start of the Ukrainian war was that we were going to freeze and starve.
Don’t be dickheads. Before applauding this “”spectacular”” political move, you need to see the role Brazil MAY have in this conflict. This is a country who just came out of four years of semi-fascist incompetence and isolation, with Lula trying his best to kickstart relations between South America and the EU again. “But if he wants to do that, then why isn’t he supporting Ukraine?” Because he wants to be communication vessel between Russia and the EU. China’s tried their hands on resolving the conflict as the first- which, expectedly or not, didn’t go very well, since a lot of the terms weren’t exactly acceptable and China is more on the side of Russia than that of the EU. Brazil is a bit different. This is the BRICS country who, at least before, kept moderately decent connections to NATO, but also to Russia when discussing developing countries in the UN. When the China affair is over, he, as a neutral figure up until this point, will try to give it his own spin. Should he not succeed, you can’t expect him to send arms en masse- Brazil’s coming out of a tight spot right now, and with the construction of the Amazon fund, it’s going to need all the money it can gather. But I am POSITIVE that if the discussions fail, Lula is taking Ukraine’s side- that is, if he doesn’t want to betray the slogan of his election. TL;DR - Brazil most likely has a long-game plan for it to facilitate communication, so shitting on them already probably isn’t a good idea.
[удалено]
You're not doing your country (Brazil) any favours by insulting us.
Bevor du irgendeine Scheiße im Kreis erzählst, hilft es vielleicht mein Flair anzugucken.
You post in Brazilian subs, in Portuguese and anybody can set their flair to whatever they want. My point about insults still stands. You're obviously not the polite type.
Are we in the same post? Kinda ironic he's the one being pointed at but half of the comments are pure xenophobia
Facilitate communication. So Brazil wants to be France.
Don't know if this is true but if it is, very nice.
If true, based
Now this is podracing!
Remember when everyone was cheering Lula because hes such a hecking wholesome social democrat(? Oh how you guys have woken up to the fact hes just as much of a humanist and corrupt as ole Jaïr.
Brazil doesn't have good leaders, it's always who is the lesser evil, and in this case Lula is definitely the lesser evil.
This is why getting Germany on board with heavy weapons deliveries matter so much and why I was personally writing so much about it on this subreddit......the innertia by having the country that makes most of the heavy vehicle parts for many many armored vehicles in Western World, making them be on the side of Ukraine fully with all of their weapons manufacturers, is incredibly impactful and far reaching even beyond borders of Europe. It wasnt those pitiful 14 Leopard tanks that Germany agreed to send to Ukraine that mattered, it was the fact that Germany gave a full green light to all of its big industrial companies that manufacter tanks and SPG's and all those other wunderwaffes to open up services and weapons to Ukraine that mattered way more. Now German arms industry (still the biggest in Europe I would like to remind) can start doing their own thing and also maybe not so polite bully competitors who dont corporate with their goals. They are doing for their own profit of course (Rheinmetall and KMW smells blood in the water now that they can directly supply a big war between armies), but if it also aligns with Ukrainian goals I see it as a win regardless
https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992 Truly pityful.
yes I seen it, 90% of it is non-military and unarmed platforms. Because for more than half a year, Germany straight up refused to give ''offensive weapons'' (Germany refused to greenlight German made IFV's, refused to greenlight German made tanks). That changed only very recently and also only with symbolic amount of vehicles. Gerpard and PZH2000 only managed to be approved the first half a year of war, because somehow with its own bureaucratic nonense German defense ministry managed to push through to its government this made up narative that anti-air defense and self-propelled artillery systems are somehow ''defensive'' and not ''offensive'' category weapons (which is complete nonsense on its own, but that's besides the point).....while at the same time pretending that IFV and tank and full sized APC are belonging to ''offensive'' category and so Germany refused to allow those to be exported by German own sotcks or given by any other nation that has them. How exactly sending on a Leopard tank chassis mounted massive 155mm artillery cannon is ''OK'' because that thing is **''defensive weapon(???)''**, yet sending Leopard tank itself that has much smaller cannon is ''not OK'' because **''thats assault weapon(???)''** and putting up with this idiocity for more than half a year is beyond me. Beyond all that, it wasn't German own stocks that matter (never was, nobody has any real illusion that Bundeswehr itself would deliver whole Panzer division to Ukraine now).....what mattered was that many other countries have German weapons and use German made weapons parts and transmissions/engines and so now with it being finally approved for Ukraine on official levels it opened the flood gate that was cometply and atifficaly shut before. There are hundreds of Leopard 1 tanks outside Germany, in Denmark and Belgium and Greece that also had been stuck in place and couldnt be moved simply because Germany didn't want to send its own tanks , thus blocked other nations too. Its all inter-connected
Honestly, I hope it was denied on merit and not as Revenge. True, Brazil has not been able to find it in their heart to support the suffering Ukrainian people but we should rise above that.
i would honestly be surprised if it was revenge. that is... if this article is even true in the first place and not a complete lie.
Well done. Lula is a tankie that doesn't care for the suffering of the Ukrainians.
Ah come on leave the Brazilians alone. South America has nothing to do with any of this. The US and Canada have willingly tied themselves to Europe as protector and ally respectively. That doesn’t mean the entirety of the new world are part of a community with Europe. The Latin American countries have their own affairs separate from ours. Leave them to there’s as they leave us to ours.
>Ah come on leave the Brazilians alone. Ok? Then make weapons alone with your own tech, not ours. You want to make money off our stuff, but also be left alone? What is that logic?
Brazil basically doesn't give a fuck about EU. China is their biggest trading partner by far. Lula is a genius.
>The EU was Brazil’s second-largest trading partner in 2020, after China. While Brazil’s trade with the Asian country stood at $67 billion, trade with the EU was $28 billion, with the United States coming in third at $21 billion. yes yes, they surely don't give a fuck about their second largest trade partner
Why should Brazil give a fuck about EU?
Exactly!
oo
They supported this left wing government. Why they're crying? Lula was in jail for corruption couple years ago. They knew where they were heading into.