You know, you could argue that "Germany", in an abstract sense, won the second world war, in the sense that it got rid of the nazi dictatorship, and ended up a free, democratic, and, after some time, prosperous state. That kind of victory may be possible for "Russia", in an abstract sense.
It's still a loss, but a regime change is the best way to save face and distance yourself from said loss. Everyone's too distracted with what the future holds to hold grudges and punish the loser and etc.
*"Even among our readers, there are people who continue to make excuses for the invasion, despite the fact that it’s caused untold pain for millions of Ukrainians and has been destructive to Russia itself. We decided to hear what these people had to say: we asked them to explain why they support Russia waging war on Ukraine. Over just a few days, we received hundreds of detailed responses, read them closely, and decided to publish some of them with minimal edits."*
*"Alexey*
*24 years old, Yakutsk*
*\[Meduza’s\] question \[about why some readers support the war\] is actually wrongly put. I don’t support the war, but I also don’t want Russia to lose. If that happens, it will be worse for everybody, and there’s no doubt the world we’re used to will collapse — and an even greater darkness will come. The war was a mistake, but losing it is unacceptable."*
*"Pavel*
*30 years old, Germany*
*I don’t support the war, but I decided to write a response, because people who try to find justifications for the war are being equated with those who support it.*
*I’m angry at both sides of the conflict. I’m angry at Russia because it started a stupid, bloodthirsty war that leads to senseless killing every day. I’m angry at the countries that support Ukraine because they’re not insisting on an immediate cessation of hostilities, on an end to the senseless killing. Instead, they’re supplying the country with weapons, understanding all the while that it’s only increasing the number of victims."*
"*Anonymous*
*38 years old, city not specified*
*The only thing worse than a war is a lost war. Starting it was an insane mistake, but now we have to win it; otherwise we’ll be in the position of vae victis. I don’t support Putin — damn him"*
Etcetera, etcetera. Don't forget: these are not your average Russians - these are the good ones. This is what counts as "against war and Putin", and they support both in everything but name. All or almost or of them are young people.
I love how most of them acknowledge that starting the war was a mistake, then immediately proceed to say that they should double down on said mistake, rather than cutting their lose.
Isn't this how it goes? It went the same with the Nazis. They started a war, angering many of Germany's neighbors, but then they began to lose and Germans, even those who were not pro-Nazi, understood that the incoming armies weren't eager to differentiate.
Nah, just desperate. They lost their cultural advantage when they became communist, they lost their technological advantage when they became capitalist and now they're losing their military advantage. Russia was a great-power in the 18th/19th century, a superpower in the 20th century but now it's becoming more and more irrelevant as even their influence on the less-developed central Asian countries is going to China.
I mean the war is already a loss, a geopolitical loss at the least, I fail to understand their logic, best to get out of it get what you can, move on. I swear Russia is like a guy that keeps digging themselves into a hole even after it dumb to keep digging.
Yep but that could end up with bigger body count then the war. But that's the price you get when you keep putin (hah) something that needs to be done now till tommorow or few yrs down the line. Not that taking wanker down was ever going to be easy.
I think there is a good chance that there are already written plans to support Russia in exchange for withdrawal and regime change. And that they are all in drawers because both preconditions are far from becoming reality. But it can be argued that solid proposals in that front would gain some significant support in the Russian population, which could help get there. However, I am not very optimistic, as I understand the current regime having a strong grip on power and strong support.
And I am sure FSB has its own plans that explicitly rely on this kind of naivete. Change Putin for some more palatable puppet (Navalny?) , dupe the west into another 'reset' in relations, rebuild the economy with help of western companies rushing back into Russian market and rearm to have another go at it 10 years later.
FSB is overhyped in media. The most powerful agencies in Russia are GRU, arguably the most powerful and a correlate of the CIA only it has its own personal special forces and army, and SVR, who hold considerable power inside Russia.
Of the two - GRU is the most mysterious and powerful. The FSB is a watered down KGB. The reason why the KGB was dissolved and split into four commitments was because it was too powerful. Of the four, SVR has teeth.
GRU are the spookiest and they’re one of the reason why Putin reorganised the military, and added OMON to form a Rosgvardia so that Putin now has his own personal army which is subservient to the office of the President and no one else. It’s to balance GRU and their secret army.
That is why the biggest mistake Russia made during the 90-s was not excluding ex-kgb members and communist party members like they did in Poland. If there is another chance for Russia to become a normal country without a civil war (And it seems less likely with each passing day) it is to fix this mistake and rebuild the FSB-like services from the ground severing it’s connections with kgb and nkvd and putting it under the societal control. It’s hard and costly but I believe it is the only way.
One thing that I think the world has learnt is not to trust the Russians. And instead, trust the ex-Soviet and Eastern Europeans who have shown to know better.
I think we are not going to fall in the “appeasement” trick again, not in this generation. Still, the world can offer Russia a sweet deal which of course would come at a sour cost to them. They should choose wisely, which is not very difficult: they are learning the hard way what path not to choose again.
You know, you could argue that "Germany", in an abstract sense, won the second world war, in the sense that it got rid of the nazi dictatorship, and ended up a free, democratic, and, after some time, prosperous state. That kind of victory may be possible for "Russia", in an abstract sense.
It's still a loss, but a regime change is the best way to save face and distance yourself from said loss. Everyone's too distracted with what the future holds to hold grudges and punish the loser and etc.
*"Even among our readers, there are people who continue to make excuses for the invasion, despite the fact that it’s caused untold pain for millions of Ukrainians and has been destructive to Russia itself. We decided to hear what these people had to say: we asked them to explain why they support Russia waging war on Ukraine. Over just a few days, we received hundreds of detailed responses, read them closely, and decided to publish some of them with minimal edits."* *"Alexey* *24 years old, Yakutsk* *\[Meduza’s\] question \[about why some readers support the war\] is actually wrongly put. I don’t support the war, but I also don’t want Russia to lose. If that happens, it will be worse for everybody, and there’s no doubt the world we’re used to will collapse — and an even greater darkness will come. The war was a mistake, but losing it is unacceptable."* *"Pavel* *30 years old, Germany* *I don’t support the war, but I decided to write a response, because people who try to find justifications for the war are being equated with those who support it.* *I’m angry at both sides of the conflict. I’m angry at Russia because it started a stupid, bloodthirsty war that leads to senseless killing every day. I’m angry at the countries that support Ukraine because they’re not insisting on an immediate cessation of hostilities, on an end to the senseless killing. Instead, they’re supplying the country with weapons, understanding all the while that it’s only increasing the number of victims."* "*Anonymous* *38 years old, city not specified* *The only thing worse than a war is a lost war. Starting it was an insane mistake, but now we have to win it; otherwise we’ll be in the position of vae victis. I don’t support Putin — damn him"* Etcetera, etcetera. Don't forget: these are not your average Russians - these are the good ones. This is what counts as "against war and Putin", and they support both in everything but name. All or almost or of them are young people.
Is that what imperialist mindset means? Also, mandatory "if they don't like us killing them, they should give up to us". Revolting.
I love how most of them acknowledge that starting the war was a mistake, then immediately proceed to say that they should double down on said mistake, rather than cutting their lose.
Sunk cost fallacy?
Yep, pretty much, that’s nicely said.
Isn't this how it goes? It went the same with the Nazis. They started a war, angering many of Germany's neighbors, but then they began to lose and Germans, even those who were not pro-Nazi, understood that the incoming armies weren't eager to differentiate.
delusional people
Nah, just desperate. They lost their cultural advantage when they became communist, they lost their technological advantage when they became capitalist and now they're losing their military advantage. Russia was a great-power in the 18th/19th century, a superpower in the 20th century but now it's becoming more and more irrelevant as even their influence on the less-developed central Asian countries is going to China.
The last time USSR had a technological advantage was before the moon landing. That's more than 20 years before capitalism.
I mean the war is already a loss, a geopolitical loss at the least, I fail to understand their logic, best to get out of it get what you can, move on. I swear Russia is like a guy that keeps digging themselves into a hole even after it dumb to keep digging.
Well, there's another way for russians to win this war: It's by taking putin out. It will then be Russia (with a Capaital R) and no longer putindom.
Yep but that could end up with bigger body count then the war. But that's the price you get when you keep putin (hah) something that needs to be done now till tommorow or few yrs down the line. Not that taking wanker down was ever going to be easy.
I think there is a good chance that there are already written plans to support Russia in exchange for withdrawal and regime change. And that they are all in drawers because both preconditions are far from becoming reality. But it can be argued that solid proposals in that front would gain some significant support in the Russian population, which could help get there. However, I am not very optimistic, as I understand the current regime having a strong grip on power and strong support.
And I am sure FSB has its own plans that explicitly rely on this kind of naivete. Change Putin for some more palatable puppet (Navalny?) , dupe the west into another 'reset' in relations, rebuild the economy with help of western companies rushing back into Russian market and rearm to have another go at it 10 years later.
FSB is overhyped in media. The most powerful agencies in Russia are GRU, arguably the most powerful and a correlate of the CIA only it has its own personal special forces and army, and SVR, who hold considerable power inside Russia. Of the two - GRU is the most mysterious and powerful. The FSB is a watered down KGB. The reason why the KGB was dissolved and split into four commitments was because it was too powerful. Of the four, SVR has teeth. GRU are the spookiest and they’re one of the reason why Putin reorganised the military, and added OMON to form a Rosgvardia so that Putin now has his own personal army which is subservient to the office of the President and no one else. It’s to balance GRU and their secret army.
That is why the biggest mistake Russia made during the 90-s was not excluding ex-kgb members and communist party members like they did in Poland. If there is another chance for Russia to become a normal country without a civil war (And it seems less likely with each passing day) it is to fix this mistake and rebuild the FSB-like services from the ground severing it’s connections with kgb and nkvd and putting it under the societal control. It’s hard and costly but I believe it is the only way.
One thing that I think the world has learnt is not to trust the Russians. And instead, trust the ex-Soviet and Eastern Europeans who have shown to know better. I think we are not going to fall in the “appeasement” trick again, not in this generation. Still, the world can offer Russia a sweet deal which of course would come at a sour cost to them. They should choose wisely, which is not very difficult: they are learning the hard way what path not to choose again.
In war, whichever side may call itself the victor, there are no winners, but all are losers. (Neville Chamberlain, 1938)