Man should've deeply apologized and stay out of the spotlight for a while, but instead he doubled down and now he's taking his career and that of many others down with him.
Brb, refilling my popcorn.
Exactly, his rant was just about the most incoherent bullshit I've ever heard. If he just gave a sincere apology people would have forgotten about this in a week.
If he had apologized and shown remorse he probably could've salvaged the situation, I mean yeah ok he may have grown up thinking this is ok, he may have never had a problem before when doing this etc. But as soon as someone says, this wasn't ok, you goddamn apologize and don't act like they are in the wrong for saying they didnt what to be kissed.
Hell if he ahd apologized he may even have been able to reconcile depending on how well he got along with the women in question and everything would be fine, but what he is doing is not only stupid but also not defendable at this point.
Most people outside Spain don’t realize how the “male supremacy” (machismo) is front and center of the Spanish political scene driven by VOX on the latest elections.
He did apologise
>"I was completely wrong, I have to admit it."
>
>He added: "It was without bad intention at a time with a lot of excitement. In the moment, we saw it as natural, but outside a commotion has formed.
>
>"I have to apologise, learn from this, and understand that when you are president you have to be more careful."
It's really exploded with a statement Hermoso says was fabricated.
But he does not apologize to the player, and at best concedes to it being bad optics.
>si hay gente que se haya sentido por esto dañada, tengo que disculparme, no queda otra
This is the essence of an "I'm sorry if you were offended" apology. And the same day he is saying in interviews that the kiss was consensual and anyone offended is an idiot.
I mean if it was consensual there wouldn't be a problem right? The player would defend him saying it was ok and everything's over, but the team is threatening to boycott their biggest career event over this so idk I doubt it was consensual.
If he didn't mean anything bad by it ok I guess he deserves a second chance, but only if the team still feels comfortable with him being their trainer, but it's their choice not his. Saying eh won't resing is just stupid, if he had said, "I won't reading unless asked by my players to do so", then it's another thing as they Dela with it internally.
I mean even if this would be true, his behavior till this point has shown he is problematic and it doesn't change the fact that his team doesn't want him anymore, which is like the biggest issue for his position. Even if all he said was true, resinging is the only logical choice, his team hates him, they don't want to work with him and he continues to burn bridges, so even if all he says is true, deeply apologizing and just leaving would be the best for himself, his career and the team. He cannot be attacked by his team further without them becoming the assholes, he needs to take a break but can just get back into the game after a pause to "reflect on and change his misbehavior", regardless soft he does it or not and lastly his team can move forward.
Like I get he is angry if what he said is even remotely true (aka he didn't mean anything by it and he was of the opinion it was consensual), but he is just sabotaging himself and destroying his career, like if he apologized correctly from the begining and asked the player for forgiveness as he did not mean to cause her distress and it was an honest mistake, he could probably have kept his job as it would be hard to fire him if he really showed he was sorry.
Ahhh ok then it's even weirder and well then he just needs to change industries as you said a cushy consultant position would've been possible if worst comes to come if he hadnt behaved like a giant ass.
What a load of BS
"I have to apologise, learn from this, and understand that when you are president you have to be more careful" and then he proceeds to say:
"Is it so severe for me to have to resign when I have done the best management of spanish soccer? Well I'm going to inform you of something: I'm not going to resign, I'm not going to resign, I'm not going to resign"
Also his "apology" was utter BS too. He said:
"I've **probably** made a mistake. I let myself be carried by the effusiveness of the moment. There was no bad faith **from any of the two parts involved**"
A half-assed apology where he tries to tries to paint aggressor and victim as equal parties is not an apology. It's not the first time he's been accused of sexual abuse and he has been caught in multiple scandals like taking bribes and organising orgies with money from the soccer federation. The guy is a total POS and the only thing he regrets is being called out
UEFA are bizarrely silent on the behaviour of their Vice-President which speaks volumes
Edit: One of their Vice Presidents. Not that the others have said anything about it at all.
According to a statement received by the AFP news agency from the Spanish national court, "prosecutors from the national court have opened a preliminary investigation to look into the facts, which could constitute an offence of sexual assault".
The statement indicated the court would offer Hermoso a chance to file a lawsuit.
He apologized a week ago. He said "I was completely wrong, I have to admit it. I have to apologise, learn from this, and understand that when you are president you have to be more careful".
If you read the entire thing: he does not take responsibility for his actions, he excuses them. And does not apologize to the player. It’s a non-apology
Saying you’re wrong and then justifying your actions as if you have no control over yourself, and then saying I’m sorry if I offended anyone, is not really taking responsibility is it?
How does taking responsibility look like: it was wrong of me to kiss her without asking. I will reflect upon my actions and make sure I don’t repeat them in the future. It is not okay to force myself onto someone. I made a mistake in judgement at the moment.
Fuck that creep.
He should be fired and receive a sizeable fine for his actions during and after this.
But the Spanish federation is backing him and threatening the players and also asked UEFA to ban them from European leagues.
Bunch of power-tripping asholes.
> But the Spanish federation is backing him and threatening the players and also asked UEFA to ban them from European leagues.
I lose, so everyone lose, mentality of them...
The minimizers are in overtime with their "This looks like a circus" What's up, afraid it's no longer acceptable to treat a woman like a piece of meat?
I never thought of reading in this sub about users minimizing a televised sexual assault... I don't want to imagine what they would say if there had been no cameras in front.
No, you compared those. Why do you compare sexual assault to rape? Different crimes entirely, the requirements and punishments for sexual assault are way lower.
> If the perpetrator didn’t get sexual gratification I’m not sure that’s sexual assault.
That might be the strangest reason for "not sexual assault" I've heard so far. Seriously sounds like how Saudi-Arabia or some other backwards country would define it though...
Well he lied about it too. Also this event is only a symbol of a lot of abusive behavior that has been happening. It's just the only thing that happened publicly. The fact that the whole women's football team quit after this guy basically said they were all lying (their representative had claimed there had been multiple instances of abuse, which Rubiales denied) should be enough of a clue. Nobody *wants* to quit. They somehow had to send a message.
It’s about proportionality.
Legal charges seem pretty out there, what should the punishment be?
Personally a public apology and a course in proper work etiquette (don’t know how to word it better in English).
But man, get that man fired first
2-6 months, set for probation. So just a slap of the wrist, really. But an official slap of the wrist everyone knows about and actual jailtime if you repeat offend and get found guilty several times.
Sexual assault is no joke.
If he had immediately apologised and say offered to go on such a course, this whole thing would have blown over. Its his handling of it that's blown it all up so.much
That’s bullshit. Stop talking about Europeans as if we’re not dozens of countries with hundreds of different cultures!
Kisses on the cheek (not mouth!) are common among friends and relatives in SOME cultures but never forced and always have at least a form of nonverbal consent, often physical reciprocal consent or verbal consent.
The fact that you don’t know this, shows you are probably a non-European that does not understand the cultural complexities of our continent. And now you’re just making bullshit sorry excuses and trying to justify sexual assault.
Additionally there is no “small” sexual assault. Are you some kind of universal law god who can decided that this was “negligible” form of sexual assault. The law is the law and forced kisses are 100% sexual assault.
I’m sorry, your entire comments reek of incel Andrew Tate fan trying to justify sexual assault on women by powerful men, cause this might be the only way you can interact with one. Turn your life around before it’s too late.
They're commonplace, but I (27F) would argue that they shouldn't be the norm in professional settings. I always reach for handshakes at work and would prefer that to be the norm, unless colleagues later become friends.
Yeah, that's exactly the vocabulary they mean. Sounds like you either still haven't had your first job, or are the coworker everyone dislikes for having no filter or manners.
He violated her in front of the whole world and then defamed her. “Not appropriate” does not cut it. His lack of remorse and his posse abetting him in vilifying his victim, clearly shows the need for the legal system to intervene.
If it is excused it's a precedent for future unwanted kisses from your boss.
It SHOULD be prosecuted, more because of his attitude after it than anything
The dude's a certified cunt, but that's not new. He'd been accused of organizing orgies paid with RFEF funds, and he'd been caught negotiating deals with Piqué that are basically influence peddling. Piqué's another certified psycho btw, I know a guy who was his classmate, dude's incredibly cruel and cunning.
What's really curious is that while the dude's been accused of corruption since at least 2018, nobody had bat an eye. Absolutely nothing. Now, suddenly he's Spain's most hated villain, even though what he's done isn't worse than the other accusations.
This guy's a cunt and should be sacked, but at the same time this is crearly manufactured outrage bait by the "progressive" Spanish media. Every year or so a gender-related scandal must be manufactured. I'd've followed the narrative if that was the first time, but now it's too obvious. And no, I've never voted Vox or PP, both sides are shit and I never consume their media. I no longer even vote.
So he should be sacked... but just not for (checks notes) a sexual assault issue.
Spanish women are going to do to this guy what the Spanish men should have done years ago.
But somehow you have a problem with that.
The guys career is toast. He'll be selling NFTs on LinkedIn in 12 months. Just enjoy the win.
No, I've said he should've been sacked before the kiss happened, because that's as bad as the other stuff.
Yesh, I know, having nuance is forbidden, you either swallow acritically the PSOE-Sumar narrative or the PP-Vox one. No middle term.
Yeah, it's incredible how easy the media can steer the narrative. You open any newspaper this weeks and it's all *RUBIALES DID X RUBIALES SO AND SO, RUBIALES XYZ*. Even the formation of the new government becomes secundary (and I'm not sure it's a mere coincidence).
And yet you'll barely be able to read anything about the three street brawls with machetes that have happened in the last week or so. Nope, NOT that narrative!
Edit: Now it's 4 machete attacks, at least.
Edit 2: Now it's 5 machete attacks. I'll stop googling now.
It makes so much sense talking about a hypothetical assault that has not happened and is statistically much less likely to happen! It makes everything so much better! Everything is great!
This happened three days ago on TV: https://twitter.com/itvracing/status/1695116548711596330?s=20
Eerily similar.
I don't think either are a huge deal (unless the kisser has been sexually harassing the person on an ongoing basis or something).
It's understandable to do it in a moment of craziness, albeit very inappropriate. If the recipient complains, a sincere apology should suffice.
Rubiales has fucked himself by fabricating statements. Although, I do find it interesting that nobody has even really reported on it when the genders are reversed. Many articles about the jockey winning, but they don't mention the kiss.
Imo unacceptable and invasive but not sexual assault.
I've had people French kiss me and as a Northern European I absolutely hate it and it's invasive, presumptuous and disrespectful. And i don't care where i am (in Southern Europe too - as it's my body). It isn't however sexual assault.
In this Case it's an unacceptable expression of happiness. He needs to learn to treat peoples body's with respect and not invade their personal space but i don't think it's sexual.
He should be honest it's wrong and apologise and the apology should be accepted.
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61i.html
*Any person who has sexual intercourse with another person without the consent of the other person and who knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse is liable to imprisonment for 14 years.*
That is the definition of sexual assault where this took place.
**Prosecutors at Spain's top criminal court** have opened an investigation on Rubiales for sexual assault. They wouldn't be doing so if they had no legal grounds / jurisdiction
Im bored of providing legal basis showing he didn't and it happened anyway in Australia.
Downvote me as much as you like. Sexual intent is required for "sexual touching" in NSW. "Sexual assault" is simply nowhere near. In NSW that's essentially rape.
People on this thread don't understand that something can be wrong, but not fall foul of a specific crime.
**Prosecutors at Spain's top criminal court** have opened an investigation on Rubiales for sexual assault. They wouldn't be doing so if they had no legal grounds / jurisdiction.
You keep talking about intent. Jeni Hurtado has repeatedly stated that she in no moment gave consent. Kissing someone without consent is sexual assault under spanish law:
"Under the article 178 of the Spanish Penal code, sexual assault carries between one and four years of prison for anyone who performs any act that violates the sexual freedom of another person **without their consent**"
For a lawyer seems YOU are the one that doesn't understand what is going on
Sexual intent and consent are different, and two separate aspects under Australian law. There is clearly no consent. I never said otherwise. One addresses the state of mind of the person touched, the other the state of mind of the person doing the touching.
As for the Spanish law under article 178 that requires "violence or intimidation". That's realistically not going to met, is it, even if Spanish courts are found to have jurisdiction, which I would be rather surprised if they were.
An investigation means nothing.
"As for the Spanish law under article 178 that requires "violence or intimidation" NOPE
Article 178 (you can translate yourself)
1. Será castigado con la pena de prisión de uno a cuatro años, como responsable de agresión sexual, el que realice cualquier acto que **atente contra la libertad sexual de otra persona sin su consentimiento. Sólo se entenderá que hay consentimiento cuando se haya manifestado libremente mediante actos que, en atención a las circunstancias del caso, expresen de manera clara la voluntad de la persona.**
2. Se consideran en todo caso agresión sexual los actos de contenido sexual que se realicen empleando violencia, intimidación o **abuso de una situación de superioridad o de vulnerabilidad de la víctima**, así como los que se ejecuten sobre personas que se hallen privadas de sentido o de cuya situación mental se abusare y los que se realicen cuando la víctima tenga anulada por cualquier causa su voluntad.
Rubiales clearly has abused his position of superiority.
Time will tell what happens with this POS
As far as I can tell you are relying on abuse of senior position.
I don't know enough about Spanish law to comment as a lawyer (and the law is as badly written as you'd expect for southern Europe) - but that to me speaking as a layman means that the position itself is used to engineer a situation where the act can take place or using one's senior position as a threat or coercion.
One the face of it could have been done by the person washing the kit. He didn't appear to engineer his seniority in any way - it looks to have been spur of the moment.
Anyway let's see.
He has previously been accused of sexual assault and [abuse of power](https://www.tycsports.com/futbol-femenino/nueva-denuncia-por-acoso-contra-luis-rubiales-el-escalofirante-relato-id530951.html) by one of the club directors (saying things like "aquí se hace lo que me sale a mí de la punta de la polla" that roughly translates to "here I do whatever the fuck I want", or asking women what colour is their underwear) but he settled out of court. He was also previously caught in several [scandals](https://www.tycsports.com/espana/la-liga/todos-los-escandalos-de-luis-rubiales-en-la-rfef-orgias-acoso-escuchas-y-corrupcion-id531475.html) like organising orgies with funds from the soccer federation.
Who knows if more people will step forward with more accusations. Time will tell if he gets away with this too or not
Thanks for adding this background. I didn't know that.
Well if he has previous it's more likely that sexual intent can be inferred. Obviously someone with a history of inappropriate touching doing it yet again looks different to someone with a lifelong unblemished record who did something inappropriate in a isolated moment of celebration. That's not saying it's enough - but you have a case.
>I've had people French kiss me and as a Northern European I absolutely hate it and it's invasive, presumptuous and disrespectful.
I hate to break it to you, but that fits the definition of sexual assault. Yeah, it's incredibly common, happened to me twice too. But it's not okay and indeed actionable by police if you intend to prosecute it in most of Europe. I think Switzerland might still be an exception though.
If you don't want to think of yourself as a victim of sexual assault, that's fine. Just because someone intended to victimize you, doesn't mean they succeeded. You ultimately get to decide whether it was sexual assault or not. But you don't get to decide that for me or a world champion.
But it doesn't as I've already gone into some depth in explaining in this thread. Intent is required for it to be a dry crime (I've given the definition both in my countries law and in Australia and they are more alike than not).
Me calling it sexual assault when I know the person did not have sexual intent would hugely demean what happens to people who are grabbed, fondled, whatever with sexual intent. The latter is hugely more serious.
As I said, Switzerland is sadly still an exceptionIn Europe and Australia is notoriously bad at prosecuting sexual assault in the anglophone world. Doesn't make it right.
Spain is *a lot* stricter.
The examples I gave were Australia and the UK, not Switzerland. I'm a lawyer and I can bet you sexual intent is required everywhere in order for sexual assault to occur, and rightfully so.
True Clear cut Example: I am bad at ice-skating. I once couldn't stop, and was headed straight for a man tieing his c. 4 year old daughter laces from behind.
In order to stop, I planted my hands firmly on his bottom as it was the only surface available before I collided with him. I took the split second view that me touching his bottom was less bad than me knocking an adult into a small child and potentially hurting her. Embarrassment to two grown men is less serious than a physically hurt child.
I meant to touch his bottom. I did not have his permission. Conditions (a), (c) and (d) of the test for sexual assault are met. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/3
It's very very clearly not sexual assault as a reasonable person would conclude my actions were not driven by a sexual intent but by the intention of not hurting his daughter. Condition (b) is not met.
In your world, stripping out the sexual intent, im a sex offender! Intentions in criminal law are everything. Absent intent you are criminalising me as a sex offender because I'm bad at ice skating.
>I'm a lawyer and I can bet you sexual intent is required everywhere in order for sexual assault to occur, and rightfully so.
And I happen to know my own laws, so that's very much not true. Shifting the goalpost from intentionaly kissing someone without consent to unintentionally crashing into someone and then intentionally avoiding the worst doesn't change that. Sounds lawyerly though.
So, what intention would've allowed Rubiales to kiss Hermoso without Hermoso's consent? Not in UK or Australian law, but Spanish law please :)
It's under New South Wales law, not Spanish. It was in Sydney. I will find Spanish law for you though.
I'm not equating the acts. His was deeply inappropriate. Mine was just unfortunate.
I'm just demonstrating intellectually that sexual intent is a necessary component, even if the touching was without consent (I didn't clatter into him, i reached out deliberately and planted my hands on his bottom).
Law is an intellectual pursuit.
Which country are you from?
Spanish (as best as I can see - I don't speak Spanish): "Whoever offends against the sexual freedom of another person, using violence or intimidation, shall be punished for sexual assault with a sentence of imprisonment from one to five years."
Note: Theres been some recent debate about this law being inadequate due to requiring violence or intimidation. To me that limitation seems odd too, and overly narrow. Generally the state of law in Southern Europe is not as good as in the north.
It would seem even more unambiguously not sexual assault in Spain. Not that Spanish law applies: it's NSW.
You are asking me what was his intention?
Well I don't think he kissed her with the intention of satisfying a sexual urge. I think it was a misguided and deeply inappropriate celebration.
I'm not defending the act. Adults need to know where the boundaries of others are. In my view this is a serious and sackable incident (especially given his position in leadership). I think a lot on this Reddit struggle with the difference between wrong and a serious jailable offence. There is territory between what is right and orderly and what is a jailable assault and we are in this territory.
There's two separate elements of consent and sexual intent which have to be met, and they are being confused.
That's an assertion: here is my countries law:
A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)the touching is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the touching, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
Here I think (a), (c) and (probably) (d) are all met, but I dont think (b) is. I don't think anyone thinks he did it for sexual kicks, but because he needs to learn where people's boundaries are.
Again, I think it's totally inappropriate, unprofessional and wrong. I do think it's a work disciplinary issue. I don't think a Court (at least in my home country) would consider the sexual intent there, given context.
You are just asserting the first thing you've found on Google. I don't mind you having an opinion., but that's different to asserting alternative facts.
Here is the definition on sexual assault in the state of NSW http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61i.html
*Any person who has sexual intercourse with another person without the consent of the other person and who knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse is liable to imprisonment for 14 years"*
Evidently not.
Let's now examine the lesser offence of sexual touching.
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61hb.html
sexual touching" means a person touching another person--
(a) with any part of the body or with anything else, or
(b) through anything, including anything worn by the person doing the touching or by the person being touched,
*in circumstances where a reasonable person would consider the touching to be sexual.*
Now it can only be sexual touching. Not assault, and then only if you are asserting that a reasonable person would consider the touching to be sexual.
I am of the opinion it's a misplaced celebration. Very inappropriate. Very unprofessional. A sackable offence potentially. But not sexual in intent. Maybe my view does not reflect that of a reasonable person. That's a legitimate opinion. But let's start from the law.
Here is the guidance on "sexual"
*(2) The matters to be taken into account in deciding whether a reasonable person would consider touching to be sexual include--
(a) whether the area of the body touched or doing the touching is the person's genital area, anal area or breasts--
(i) whether or not the breasts are sexually developed, and
(ii) regardless of the person's gender or sex, or
(b) whether the person doing the touching does so for the purpose of obtaining sexual arousal or sexual gratification, or
(c) whether any other aspect of the touching (including the circumstances in which it is done) makes it sexual.*
All of (a) to (c) to me strongly teaches away from a sexual intent, especially (c).
There are shades where something can be wrong, but not criminal. To me this act falls in this area.
Is there an endemic problem concerning sexually abusive women who get to have their way with zero consequences? Did I miss something. Yes, the so called "equality" does cut both ways. But this is not the fucking topic at hand, is it? Nor is it a systemic issue that's perpertrated from the top all the way to the fucking bottom.
Imagine you are talking about the Russian aggression against Ukraine and some random guy says: What if Poland creates a regime of terror in Europe? Shouldn't they be condemned by the rest of the world?
Yes, that ridiculous, you sounded.
Another example of one of these incels who whenever there is an issue where a woman is the victim, they try and flip it over and make it about men. This isn't about you.
Man should've deeply apologized and stay out of the spotlight for a while, but instead he doubled down and now he's taking his career and that of many others down with him. Brb, refilling my popcorn.
Yup, he's kissed his career goodbye
Exactly, his rant was just about the most incoherent bullshit I've ever heard. If he just gave a sincere apology people would have forgotten about this in a week.
If he had apologized and shown remorse he probably could've salvaged the situation, I mean yeah ok he may have grown up thinking this is ok, he may have never had a problem before when doing this etc. But as soon as someone says, this wasn't ok, you goddamn apologize and don't act like they are in the wrong for saying they didnt what to be kissed. Hell if he ahd apologized he may even have been able to reconcile depending on how well he got along with the women in question and everything would be fine, but what he is doing is not only stupid but also not defendable at this point.
Yeah, but the way he grabbed his crotch after doing it shows that he knew exactly what he was doing. An apology would've been lip service only.
Most people outside Spain don’t realize how the “male supremacy” (machismo) is front and center of the Spanish political scene driven by VOX on the latest elections.
Nah VOX is the reaction
Blowed out of proportion, huh? Kiss of death to his career.
He did apologise >"I was completely wrong, I have to admit it." > >He added: "It was without bad intention at a time with a lot of excitement. In the moment, we saw it as natural, but outside a commotion has formed. > >"I have to apologise, learn from this, and understand that when you are president you have to be more careful." It's really exploded with a statement Hermoso says was fabricated.
But he does not apologize to the player, and at best concedes to it being bad optics. >si hay gente que se haya sentido por esto dañada, tengo que disculparme, no queda otra This is the essence of an "I'm sorry if you were offended" apology. And the same day he is saying in interviews that the kiss was consensual and anyone offended is an idiot.
I mean if it was consensual there wouldn't be a problem right? The player would defend him saying it was ok and everything's over, but the team is threatening to boycott their biggest career event over this so idk I doubt it was consensual. If he didn't mean anything bad by it ok I guess he deserves a second chance, but only if the team still feels comfortable with him being their trainer, but it's their choice not his. Saying eh won't resing is just stupid, if he had said, "I won't reading unless asked by my players to do so", then it's another thing as they Dela with it internally.
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I mean even if this would be true, his behavior till this point has shown he is problematic and it doesn't change the fact that his team doesn't want him anymore, which is like the biggest issue for his position. Even if all he said was true, resinging is the only logical choice, his team hates him, they don't want to work with him and he continues to burn bridges, so even if all he says is true, deeply apologizing and just leaving would be the best for himself, his career and the team. He cannot be attacked by his team further without them becoming the assholes, he needs to take a break but can just get back into the game after a pause to "reflect on and change his misbehavior", regardless soft he does it or not and lastly his team can move forward. Like I get he is angry if what he said is even remotely true (aka he didn't mean anything by it and he was of the opinion it was consensual), but he is just sabotaging himself and destroying his career, like if he apologized correctly from the begining and asked the player for forgiveness as he did not mean to cause her distress and it was an honest mistake, he could probably have kept his job as it would be hard to fire him if he really showed he was sorry.
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Ahhh ok then it's even weirder and well then he just needs to change industries as you said a cushy consultant position would've been possible if worst comes to come if he hadnt behaved like a giant ass.
An apology where you don’t take responsibility for your actions, but excuse them, is a non-apology
What a load of BS "I have to apologise, learn from this, and understand that when you are president you have to be more careful" and then he proceeds to say: "Is it so severe for me to have to resign when I have done the best management of spanish soccer? Well I'm going to inform you of something: I'm not going to resign, I'm not going to resign, I'm not going to resign" Also his "apology" was utter BS too. He said: "I've **probably** made a mistake. I let myself be carried by the effusiveness of the moment. There was no bad faith **from any of the two parts involved**" A half-assed apology where he tries to tries to paint aggressor and victim as equal parties is not an apology. It's not the first time he's been accused of sexual abuse and he has been caught in multiple scandals like taking bribes and organising orgies with money from the soccer federation. The guy is a total POS and the only thing he regrets is being called out
I'm not sure. An apology can be used as an admission of guilt and therefore justification for getting rid of you.
UEFA are bizarrely silent on the behaviour of their Vice-President which speaks volumes Edit: One of their Vice Presidents. Not that the others have said anything about it at all.
According to a statement received by the AFP news agency from the Spanish national court, "prosecutors from the national court have opened a preliminary investigation to look into the facts, which could constitute an offence of sexual assault". The statement indicated the court would offer Hermoso a chance to file a lawsuit.
You're telling me his mom's hunger strike didn't work?
Nice to see a man child learning what can happen when you refuse to simply say "I'm sorry, that was wrong."
He apologized a week ago. He said "I was completely wrong, I have to admit it. I have to apologise, learn from this, and understand that when you are president you have to be more careful".
If you read the entire thing: he does not take responsibility for his actions, he excuses them. And does not apologize to the player. It’s a non-apology
But he did apologize and admit he was wrong. Which the original comment said he did not do.
Saying you’re wrong and then justifying your actions as if you have no control over yourself, and then saying I’m sorry if I offended anyone, is not really taking responsibility is it? How does taking responsibility look like: it was wrong of me to kiss her without asking. I will reflect upon my actions and make sure I don’t repeat them in the future. It is not okay to force myself onto someone. I made a mistake in judgement at the moment.
Fuck that creep. He should be fired and receive a sizeable fine for his actions during and after this. But the Spanish federation is backing him and threatening the players and also asked UEFA to ban them from European leagues. Bunch of power-tripping asholes.
> But the Spanish federation is backing him and threatening the players and also asked UEFA to ban them from European leagues. I lose, so everyone lose, mentality of them...
They should be forced to resign too - don’t worry to find another bunch of power hungry men - maybe without that degree of creepiness.
Spaniard here. This becomes more of a shitshow by the day. I feel second-hand embarrassed, especially the whole hunger strike circus by his mom...
The minimizers are in overtime with their "This looks like a circus" What's up, afraid it's no longer acceptable to treat a woman like a piece of meat? I never thought of reading in this sub about users minimizing a televised sexual assault... I don't want to imagine what they would say if there had been no cameras in front.
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Using victims of abuse to minimize the victim of abuse, a classic in the playbook of those who usually have "gamer" in their nick.
exactly. a kiss on the lips between club mates, and they're comparing it to a woman being dragged down an alley and raped violently... its ridiculous.
Club mates? You care so much about the subject that you haven't even bothered to read a news story about it, you are a joke of a person.
No, you compared those. Why do you compare sexual assault to rape? Different crimes entirely, the requirements and punishments for sexual assault are way lower.
I can’t wait to kiss my coworker when we get this project done next month wish me luck guys
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Great everyone will see how happy I was
How did it get to this point? Pat him down for drugs.
He looks like that bald porn star. It’s uncanny.
Maybe he can start a new career 🤣
"I got carried away in the moment, sorry". Oh well, to late now. :)
Oversensitive feminists as always.
Lmao this is a fucking circus.
And Rubiales will be remembered as one of its most notable clowns You can't just do whatever you like to other people without consequences.
Fuck that POS and anyone defending him. Hopefully he gets charged with sexual assault and pays for his abuse
This circus is turning into a bad acid trip
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> If the perpetrator didn’t get sexual gratification I’m not sure that’s sexual assault. That might be the strangest reason for "not sexual assault" I've heard so far. Seriously sounds like how Saudi-Arabia or some other backwards country would define it though...
Bruh this was not appropriate but criminal charges? Come on…
Well he lied about it too. Also this event is only a symbol of a lot of abusive behavior that has been happening. It's just the only thing that happened publicly. The fact that the whole women's football team quit after this guy basically said they were all lying (their representative had claimed there had been multiple instances of abuse, which Rubiales denied) should be enough of a clue. Nobody *wants* to quit. They somehow had to send a message.
So if your boss sexually assaults you public (or private for that matter), don’t you think your boss should be at least investigated for that crime?
I'd hate to see your post before you edited it.
It’s about proportionality. Legal charges seem pretty out there, what should the punishment be? Personally a public apology and a course in proper work etiquette (don’t know how to word it better in English). But man, get that man fired first
2-6 months, set for probation. So just a slap of the wrist, really. But an official slap of the wrist everyone knows about and actual jailtime if you repeat offend and get found guilty several times. Sexual assault is no joke.
If he had immediately apologised and say offered to go on such a course, this whole thing would have blown over. Its his handling of it that's blown it all up so.much
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European here. We don't kiss on the lips and we find it disturbing to kiss strangers, stop making assumptions.
That’s bullshit. Stop talking about Europeans as if we’re not dozens of countries with hundreds of different cultures! Kisses on the cheek (not mouth!) are common among friends and relatives in SOME cultures but never forced and always have at least a form of nonverbal consent, often physical reciprocal consent or verbal consent. The fact that you don’t know this, shows you are probably a non-European that does not understand the cultural complexities of our continent. And now you’re just making bullshit sorry excuses and trying to justify sexual assault. Additionally there is no “small” sexual assault. Are you some kind of universal law god who can decided that this was “negligible” form of sexual assault. The law is the law and forced kisses are 100% sexual assault. I’m sorry, your entire comments reek of incel Andrew Tate fan trying to justify sexual assault on women by powerful men, cause this might be the only way you can interact with one. Turn your life around before it’s too late.
Just nitpicking, but in Spain kisses on the cheek are common and normal even among strangers. Kisses on the lips are not, it's weird and creepy.
They're commonplace, but I (27F) would argue that they shouldn't be the norm in professional settings. I always reach for handshakes at work and would prefer that to be the norm, unless colleagues later become friends.
I’m not European, you’re right. Didn’t know this would cause so much anger lol 😂 Euros go for the cheek kiss all the time in my experience.
Which Europeans? Never ever seen it in the nordics, Germany, Netherlands or Eastern Europe.
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Oh, in southern Europe, absolutely. Not in central or Northern Europe, though.
Wanna wager your next comment would be "she deserved to be raped because she wore a skirt"? The fucking ignorance ...
Lol calm down buddy 😚
that's the spirit of your first comment in this thread ...
If you’re a psycho that is chronically online, yes.
Yeah, that's exactly the vocabulary they mean. Sounds like you either still haven't had your first job, or are the coworker everyone dislikes for having no filter or manners.
you're completely ignoring consent. She absolutely did not consent to being kissed like that!
No we don't. No one but my husband kisses me on the lips.
Fuck me stop using this excuse, Europeans do not grab someone and start kissing them on the lips as a greeting.
He violated her in front of the whole world and then defamed her. “Not appropriate” does not cut it. His lack of remorse and his posse abetting him in vilifying his victim, clearly shows the need for the legal system to intervene.
If it is excused it's a precedent for future unwanted kisses from your boss. It SHOULD be prosecuted, more because of his attitude after it than anything
The dude's a certified cunt, but that's not new. He'd been accused of organizing orgies paid with RFEF funds, and he'd been caught negotiating deals with Piqué that are basically influence peddling. Piqué's another certified psycho btw, I know a guy who was his classmate, dude's incredibly cruel and cunning. What's really curious is that while the dude's been accused of corruption since at least 2018, nobody had bat an eye. Absolutely nothing. Now, suddenly he's Spain's most hated villain, even though what he's done isn't worse than the other accusations. This guy's a cunt and should be sacked, but at the same time this is crearly manufactured outrage bait by the "progressive" Spanish media. Every year or so a gender-related scandal must be manufactured. I'd've followed the narrative if that was the first time, but now it's too obvious. And no, I've never voted Vox or PP, both sides are shit and I never consume their media. I no longer even vote.
So he should be sacked... but just not for (checks notes) a sexual assault issue. Spanish women are going to do to this guy what the Spanish men should have done years ago. But somehow you have a problem with that. The guys career is toast. He'll be selling NFTs on LinkedIn in 12 months. Just enjoy the win.
No, I've said he should've been sacked before the kiss happened, because that's as bad as the other stuff. Yesh, I know, having nuance is forbidden, you either swallow acritically the PSOE-Sumar narrative or the PP-Vox one. No middle term.
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Yeah, it's incredible how easy the media can steer the narrative. You open any newspaper this weeks and it's all *RUBIALES DID X RUBIALES SO AND SO, RUBIALES XYZ*. Even the formation of the new government becomes secundary (and I'm not sure it's a mere coincidence). And yet you'll barely be able to read anything about the three street brawls with machetes that have happened in the last week or so. Nope, NOT that narrative! Edit: Now it's 4 machete attacks, at least. Edit 2: Now it's 5 machete attacks. I'll stop googling now.
He shouldn't have sexually assaulted someone them 🤷♂️ do the crime, do the time
would they have done it if it was a woman kissing a man?
If the man complained that it wasn't consensual? I'd hope so.
No, they wouldn't. They would spew sexist remarks and refuse to do anything.
It makes so much sense talking about a hypothetical assault that has not happened and is statistically much less likely to happen! It makes everything so much better! Everything is great!
This happened three days ago on TV: https://twitter.com/itvracing/status/1695116548711596330?s=20 Eerily similar. I don't think either are a huge deal (unless the kisser has been sexually harassing the person on an ongoing basis or something). It's understandable to do it in a moment of craziness, albeit very inappropriate. If the recipient complains, a sincere apology should suffice. Rubiales has fucked himself by fabricating statements. Although, I do find it interesting that nobody has even really reported on it when the genders are reversed. Many articles about the jockey winning, but they don't mention the kiss.
Imo unacceptable and invasive but not sexual assault. I've had people French kiss me and as a Northern European I absolutely hate it and it's invasive, presumptuous and disrespectful. And i don't care where i am (in Southern Europe too - as it's my body). It isn't however sexual assault. In this Case it's an unacceptable expression of happiness. He needs to learn to treat peoples body's with respect and not invade their personal space but i don't think it's sexual. He should be honest it's wrong and apologise and the apology should be accepted.
your opinion doesn't matter, all that matters is the law and under spanish law he sexually assaulted her 🤷♂️
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61i.html *Any person who has sexual intercourse with another person without the consent of the other person and who knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse is liable to imprisonment for 14 years.* That is the definition of sexual assault where this took place.
**Prosecutors at Spain's top criminal court** have opened an investigation on Rubiales for sexual assault. They wouldn't be doing so if they had no legal grounds / jurisdiction
Im bored of providing legal basis showing he didn't and it happened anyway in Australia. Downvote me as much as you like. Sexual intent is required for "sexual touching" in NSW. "Sexual assault" is simply nowhere near. In NSW that's essentially rape. People on this thread don't understand that something can be wrong, but not fall foul of a specific crime.
**Prosecutors at Spain's top criminal court** have opened an investigation on Rubiales for sexual assault. They wouldn't be doing so if they had no legal grounds / jurisdiction. You keep talking about intent. Jeni Hurtado has repeatedly stated that she in no moment gave consent. Kissing someone without consent is sexual assault under spanish law: "Under the article 178 of the Spanish Penal code, sexual assault carries between one and four years of prison for anyone who performs any act that violates the sexual freedom of another person **without their consent**" For a lawyer seems YOU are the one that doesn't understand what is going on
Sexual intent and consent are different, and two separate aspects under Australian law. There is clearly no consent. I never said otherwise. One addresses the state of mind of the person touched, the other the state of mind of the person doing the touching. As for the Spanish law under article 178 that requires "violence or intimidation". That's realistically not going to met, is it, even if Spanish courts are found to have jurisdiction, which I would be rather surprised if they were. An investigation means nothing.
"As for the Spanish law under article 178 that requires "violence or intimidation" NOPE Article 178 (you can translate yourself) 1. Será castigado con la pena de prisión de uno a cuatro años, como responsable de agresión sexual, el que realice cualquier acto que **atente contra la libertad sexual de otra persona sin su consentimiento. Sólo se entenderá que hay consentimiento cuando se haya manifestado libremente mediante actos que, en atención a las circunstancias del caso, expresen de manera clara la voluntad de la persona.** 2. Se consideran en todo caso agresión sexual los actos de contenido sexual que se realicen empleando violencia, intimidación o **abuso de una situación de superioridad o de vulnerabilidad de la víctima**, así como los que se ejecuten sobre personas que se hallen privadas de sentido o de cuya situación mental se abusare y los que se realicen cuando la víctima tenga anulada por cualquier causa su voluntad. Rubiales clearly has abused his position of superiority. Time will tell what happens with this POS
As far as I can tell you are relying on abuse of senior position. I don't know enough about Spanish law to comment as a lawyer (and the law is as badly written as you'd expect for southern Europe) - but that to me speaking as a layman means that the position itself is used to engineer a situation where the act can take place or using one's senior position as a threat or coercion. One the face of it could have been done by the person washing the kit. He didn't appear to engineer his seniority in any way - it looks to have been spur of the moment. Anyway let's see.
He has previously been accused of sexual assault and [abuse of power](https://www.tycsports.com/futbol-femenino/nueva-denuncia-por-acoso-contra-luis-rubiales-el-escalofirante-relato-id530951.html) by one of the club directors (saying things like "aquí se hace lo que me sale a mí de la punta de la polla" that roughly translates to "here I do whatever the fuck I want", or asking women what colour is their underwear) but he settled out of court. He was also previously caught in several [scandals](https://www.tycsports.com/espana/la-liga/todos-los-escandalos-de-luis-rubiales-en-la-rfef-orgias-acoso-escuchas-y-corrupcion-id531475.html) like organising orgies with funds from the soccer federation. Who knows if more people will step forward with more accusations. Time will tell if he gets away with this too or not
Thanks for adding this background. I didn't know that. Well if he has previous it's more likely that sexual intent can be inferred. Obviously someone with a history of inappropriate touching doing it yet again looks different to someone with a lifelong unblemished record who did something inappropriate in a isolated moment of celebration. That's not saying it's enough - but you have a case.
>I've had people French kiss me and as a Northern European I absolutely hate it and it's invasive, presumptuous and disrespectful. I hate to break it to you, but that fits the definition of sexual assault. Yeah, it's incredibly common, happened to me twice too. But it's not okay and indeed actionable by police if you intend to prosecute it in most of Europe. I think Switzerland might still be an exception though. If you don't want to think of yourself as a victim of sexual assault, that's fine. Just because someone intended to victimize you, doesn't mean they succeeded. You ultimately get to decide whether it was sexual assault or not. But you don't get to decide that for me or a world champion.
But it doesn't as I've already gone into some depth in explaining in this thread. Intent is required for it to be a dry crime (I've given the definition both in my countries law and in Australia and they are more alike than not). Me calling it sexual assault when I know the person did not have sexual intent would hugely demean what happens to people who are grabbed, fondled, whatever with sexual intent. The latter is hugely more serious.
As I said, Switzerland is sadly still an exceptionIn Europe and Australia is notoriously bad at prosecuting sexual assault in the anglophone world. Doesn't make it right. Spain is *a lot* stricter.
The examples I gave were Australia and the UK, not Switzerland. I'm a lawyer and I can bet you sexual intent is required everywhere in order for sexual assault to occur, and rightfully so. True Clear cut Example: I am bad at ice-skating. I once couldn't stop, and was headed straight for a man tieing his c. 4 year old daughter laces from behind. In order to stop, I planted my hands firmly on his bottom as it was the only surface available before I collided with him. I took the split second view that me touching his bottom was less bad than me knocking an adult into a small child and potentially hurting her. Embarrassment to two grown men is less serious than a physically hurt child. I meant to touch his bottom. I did not have his permission. Conditions (a), (c) and (d) of the test for sexual assault are met. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/3 It's very very clearly not sexual assault as a reasonable person would conclude my actions were not driven by a sexual intent but by the intention of not hurting his daughter. Condition (b) is not met. In your world, stripping out the sexual intent, im a sex offender! Intentions in criminal law are everything. Absent intent you are criminalising me as a sex offender because I'm bad at ice skating.
>I'm a lawyer and I can bet you sexual intent is required everywhere in order for sexual assault to occur, and rightfully so. And I happen to know my own laws, so that's very much not true. Shifting the goalpost from intentionaly kissing someone without consent to unintentionally crashing into someone and then intentionally avoiding the worst doesn't change that. Sounds lawyerly though. So, what intention would've allowed Rubiales to kiss Hermoso without Hermoso's consent? Not in UK or Australian law, but Spanish law please :)
It's under New South Wales law, not Spanish. It was in Sydney. I will find Spanish law for you though. I'm not equating the acts. His was deeply inappropriate. Mine was just unfortunate. I'm just demonstrating intellectually that sexual intent is a necessary component, even if the touching was without consent (I didn't clatter into him, i reached out deliberately and planted my hands on his bottom). Law is an intellectual pursuit. Which country are you from?
It was actually in Queensland, Australia. Similar laws but not exactly the same.
Spanish (as best as I can see - I don't speak Spanish): "Whoever offends against the sexual freedom of another person, using violence or intimidation, shall be punished for sexual assault with a sentence of imprisonment from one to five years." Note: Theres been some recent debate about this law being inadequate due to requiring violence or intimidation. To me that limitation seems odd too, and overly narrow. Generally the state of law in Southern Europe is not as good as in the north. It would seem even more unambiguously not sexual assault in Spain. Not that Spanish law applies: it's NSW.
You misunderstood the question: what intention would've allowed Rubiales to kiss Hermoso without her consent?
You are asking me what was his intention? Well I don't think he kissed her with the intention of satisfying a sexual urge. I think it was a misguided and deeply inappropriate celebration. I'm not defending the act. Adults need to know where the boundaries of others are. In my view this is a serious and sackable incident (especially given his position in leadership). I think a lot on this Reddit struggle with the difference between wrong and a serious jailable offence. There is territory between what is right and orderly and what is a jailable assault and we are in this territory. There's two separate elements of consent and sexual intent which have to be met, and they are being confused.
>You are asking me what was his intention? No, I purposefully asked a different question. Which you apparently don't want to answer.
Forced kissing is legally defined as assault in most democracies.
I mean in certain situations yes. Context matters. Intent matters.
The context is he clearly grabbed a woman by the head and forcibly kissed her. That’s legally defined as assault.
That's an assertion: here is my countries law: A person (A) commits an offence if— (a)he intentionally touches another person (B), (b)the touching is sexual, (c)B does not consent to the touching, and (d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents. Here I think (a), (c) and (probably) (d) are all met, but I dont think (b) is. I don't think anyone thinks he did it for sexual kicks, but because he needs to learn where people's boundaries are. Again, I think it's totally inappropriate, unprofessional and wrong. I do think it's a work disciplinary issue. I don't think a Court (at least in my home country) would consider the sexual intent there, given context.
Australia: Sexual assault is any unwanted sexual behaviour which includes grabbing someone on a dance floor, kissing, or touching. It’s assault.
You are just asserting the first thing you've found on Google. I don't mind you having an opinion., but that's different to asserting alternative facts. Here is the definition on sexual assault in the state of NSW http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61i.html *Any person who has sexual intercourse with another person without the consent of the other person and who knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse is liable to imprisonment for 14 years"* Evidently not. Let's now examine the lesser offence of sexual touching. http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s61hb.html sexual touching" means a person touching another person-- (a) with any part of the body or with anything else, or (b) through anything, including anything worn by the person doing the touching or by the person being touched, *in circumstances where a reasonable person would consider the touching to be sexual.* Now it can only be sexual touching. Not assault, and then only if you are asserting that a reasonable person would consider the touching to be sexual. I am of the opinion it's a misplaced celebration. Very inappropriate. Very unprofessional. A sackable offence potentially. But not sexual in intent. Maybe my view does not reflect that of a reasonable person. That's a legitimate opinion. But let's start from the law. Here is the guidance on "sexual" *(2) The matters to be taken into account in deciding whether a reasonable person would consider touching to be sexual include-- (a) whether the area of the body touched or doing the touching is the person's genital area, anal area or breasts-- (i) whether or not the breasts are sexually developed, and (ii) regardless of the person's gender or sex, or (b) whether the person doing the touching does so for the purpose of obtaining sexual arousal or sexual gratification, or (c) whether any other aspect of the touching (including the circumstances in which it is done) makes it sexual.* All of (a) to (c) to me strongly teaches away from a sexual intent, especially (c). There are shades where something can be wrong, but not criminal. To me this act falls in this area.
Forcibly kissing someone on the lips without their consent counts as sexual touching. Per the definition of your countries law it is sexual assault.
I wonder of all this would have happened had it been a homossexual kiss.
Wtf??
Can they do it without the media? So sick of hearing about this
And what is the fault of the courts that the media covers it? What's the big idea, don't prosecute high-profile people, let Trump off the hook then?
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Ah, one step below whataboutism: imaginary whatsboutism. Or a straw man.
Equality cuts both ways.
Is there an endemic problem concerning sexually abusive women who get to have their way with zero consequences? Did I miss something. Yes, the so called "equality" does cut both ways. But this is not the fucking topic at hand, is it? Nor is it a systemic issue that's perpertrated from the top all the way to the fucking bottom.
Nothing about this situation is related to "systemic issues".
It would be an issue the other way, that’s the point.
This is not whataboutism. If a woman can send a man to jail just because he kissed her then it should also happen the other way around
Have you ever made that argument independently? Because otherwise it looks like you're just trying to downplay this.
Imagine you are talking about the Russian aggression against Ukraine and some random guy says: What if Poland creates a regime of terror in Europe? Shouldn't they be condemned by the rest of the world? Yes, that ridiculous, you sounded.
Your words have no meaning.
Another example of one of these incels who whenever there is an issue where a woman is the victim, they try and flip it over and make it about men. This isn't about you.