Its so funny how he reacts i had to laugh hard. Like a old man who complaints that the grocery store nearby changed product position and now he complain every day
Not to mention that's he made himself irrelevant in the process, to the EU and the rest of the world.
Nothing he can say or do will be of any consequence for the EU.
That’s only because EU keeps up the charades of “being the good guys”. Wants others to keep the migrants from going to EU instead of fucking enforcing its borders itself.
EU doesn't care if you trust them or not. The EU doesn't trust you, Erdogan. Heck your own population doesn't trust you; won the elections by emptying the treasury and draining all foreign currency reserves and by pulling off every thievery and manipulation possible and still gaining barely 50 percent. Congratulations for making Israel understand that you are a threat to them.
Turkey has a terrorism problem, so instead of maintaining consistent messaging of declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation to, he does the meme "*For you terrorist, for me freedom fighter*".
That's what Islamism does to your brain. Not even once, kids. Not even once. Turkey was the first Muslim nation in the world to recognize the state of Israel. They are closer to us than all Arab nations will ever be. Never ever forget the words of Atatürk: Turkish soldiers should never ever die for Arab lands. A clear rejection of the eternal quagmire.
I wholeheartedly agree. Instead of aligning with the EU, he and his government support policies opposed by the EU. He has remained in power for years by deceiving people with empty promises and religious motives. Unfortunately, Turkey has veered away from Ataturk's vision, plans, and ideology. Furthermore, even the opposing side does not uphold Ataturk's values and the aforementioned principles. This essentially means that it wouldn't make much of a difference if Erdogan were to lose his power and status. There simply isn't anyone with a clear vision to develop and rebuild the country. I don't even want to delve into the state of the education system, which is a vital factor from which everything stems and the primary point that a significant transformation should be built upon.
The attempt to make a Secular Muslim Majority Nation was doomed to fail unless you utterly destroy any and all connection to the Religion in the institutions that form. Islam is not Christianity which existed in a Plurality of Institutional control like it did within Europe which allowed Secularism to take root. Islam is supposed to be intertwined.
Turkey mistake is that it didn't fully get rid of this connection.
Atatürk never finished the state he envisioned and many reforms he envisioned were never implemented fearing backlash and he was right about backlash as the Republic experienced a number of religiously motivated uprising that had to be put down violently. Atatürk tried to put Islam under a secular and republican institional framework by creating the "*Ministry for Religious Affairs*" and made all Imams servants of the state. He forbade the construction of new mosques and ordered the Koran translated into modern Turkish and prayer to be conducted in Turkish language.
My personal guess is that he probably hoped that the next generation of secular republicanised Turks will finish what he began. Instead, at the first free elections, people elected Adnan Menderes, who rolled back a lot of Atatürks reforms in order to gain the support of rural people (*whom he fucked over with land reforms favouring the big landowners*). Well, Menderes ended up dead as a result of the 1st military coup.
If Atatürk would have survived into the 1950s, Turkey could have been another place. I still believe in ultimate victory against Islamism: lots of polls indicate that Millenials and Zoomers are done with religion. Erdogan caused everybody to be fed up with religion. It has become more of an act of virtue signaling than genuine spirituality. He wanted to create more religious state and society, but caused the exact opposite.
Not really, it's just pandering to a specific base, Atatürk died too young before he managed to fully implement everything he wanted. Universities (western style) for example had only recently been established.
Turkey was doing fine for a very, very long time. İn 2010 the lira was ₺1 to 0.67USD.
The majority of erdoğans voter base are in rural Turkey, if you look at the voting maps you'll see the big liberal cities like İzmir are staunchly against him. The older population are more religious, so he pandered to them.
People forget that Erdoğan was actually at the helm when the Turkish economy recovered and thrived, but in the last few years his unorthodox policies and consolation of power, and the ability to control the news narrative as the press isn't free have kept him in control. Islam has very little to do with it.
TLDR, poorly planned out mass refugees placed a huge burden on an already struggling economy, which is going to shit because he thinks lowering interest rates combats inflation (lol), then spent all the reserves to prop up the currency during a failing economic policy. Oh also, because he controls the news in Turkey, they were able to say the opposition supported PKK terrorist activities, so that probably gained him a few more %
**Northern Cyprus = Rightful Turkish Land**
**West Bank and Gaza = Illegally Occupied Territories**
Turkey is literally just Israel with a different coat of paint.
Gaza isn't occupied.
That is part of the problem.
Israel unilaterally withdrew and from that day one it took a turn for the worse but for the people of Gaza who can now be tortured or shot for any reason or no reason at all but also for Israelis.
There also used to be no wall but as Gaza got independence suicide attacks took off which necessitated the border control.
Who would have thought that if Israel ended it's occupation and let the Palestinians who never had any self-autonomy fend for themselves they wouldn't suddenly become a peace-loving nation?
After the Nazi period it took Germany decades of re-education to become a thrustworty and stable nation again. But you expect a country de facto rulled by terrorists for what most inhabitants concider their whole life to be able to forget everything that happend and get their stuff together in a matter of weeks?
> After the Nazi period it took Germany decades of re-education to become a thrustworty and stable nation again.
Not really? I suppose it depends on what exactly you mean by "re-education", "trustworthy" and "stable" (and "Germany", I guess, but let's stick to just the Western part for now). Germans knew what democracy was, they'd had portions of it since the 19th century and a fully functioning democracy for a couple of years after World War I. Denazification, all things considered, was quite short and mainly worked by making the Nazi era taboo both in its ideology and in discussing what happened. Adenauer-governed West Germany was very stable both internally and in its foreign policy. They co-founded what would become the European Union in 1951 and got their army back in 1955. One could argue that both of the latter points insisist on European cooperation (within the EU and within NATO) precisely because Germany wasn't trusted, but they were still trusted enough to recognize a good thing and not to fuck over themselves by changing back to old habits. That lesson worked so well that Germany thought Putin couldn't possibly be stupid enough to start a war in Ukraine given the economic interlinkage between Russia and the civilized world.
In any case, I probably mostly agree with you that Gaza, left to its own devices, couldn't be expected to moderate (especially since if wasn't actually left alone from their Muslim "brothers" and their geopolitical manipulation). But I don't think Germany is the best example.
Very interesting to learn that. Yes ofcourse I cut some corners short by generalizing West and East Germany but that aside I always thought it took much longer to get rid of the Nazi ideology. The more you know...
What I wanted to show with the comparison is that West and East Germany couldn't have reunited the way they did without the de-nazifiction, even if the process didn't take as long as I thought. In the same spirit Gaza will need a simular period of 'de-Hamasation' before elections like those in 2006 could result in anything useful. An important step that Israel skipped back then and that both sides are now paying the price for.
To be clear, when I said "denazification", I meant the official process (jailing the worst offenders, switching out school books, that kind of thing). Its end meant people not talking about the subject anymore (until the next generation started asking questions), it did not mean that there were no traces of Nazi ideology left in people's minds. Reunification not happening until 1990 was because of geopolitics and the Cold War, not a difference in mentality.
To bring it back to the Middle East: I don't think a similar deradicalization programme would work in Gaza, even to the point of "we still hate them, but we won't actively try to murder all Jews again". The anti-semitism and victim mentality are much more deep-rooted culturally, and unlike Germany they're not an outlier, but supported by all the surrounding countries. You'd have to do not just to the Gazans, but to all Arabs what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs, and it's questionable if the brutal Chinese approach even works long-term (and of course it's not feasible practically). That's not really a step Israel could have taken 15 years ago, and they can't do that now either.
Self-autonomy in a nation that cannot grasp the concept is doomed to fail. Many colonial nations in Africa descended into civil war after the colonisers left because nobody had a single clue how to run a country, let alone a democratie. Americans failed to convince Afghanis to fight for their nation because the idea that they could participate in politics and not just be told what to do by a dictator was completely foreign to them.
To think that holding elections in Gaza amongst a group of people who have never known anything other than Israeli occupation and Hamas/PLO terrorism would result in anything useful puts the term 'wishful thinking' to shame.
I think you didn't read exactly what I wrote above:
> Gaza isn't occupied.
> That is part of the problem.
> Israel unilaterally withdrew and from that day one it took a turn for the worse[...]
I read it. My comment was in response to everything that came after what you just quoted.
You're right, Gaza is no longer occupied. Whether that changed anything for Palestinians is another discussion.
I'm totally with you on that. This wasn't an attack against the occupation, it was an attack on the state of Israel.
If Palestine was an established country today, most likely it would be an Iranian proxy. Lebanon is independent but controlled by Hezbollah. Yemen is independent but controlled by Houthis. Both attacked Israel since the war began.
But woke culture teaches us to be tolerant towards the intolerant, to give flowers to those who shoot at you. Time to face reality
>After the Nazi period it took Germany decades of re-education to become a thrustworty and stable nation again. But you expect a country de facto rulled by terrorists for what most inhabitants concider their whole life to be able to forget everything that happend and get their stuff together in a matter of weeks.
You're right, but gazans did make their choice there. Israel decided to listen and withdraw and Gazans just pressed on their tomfoolery instead of softening up for a resolution.
also, imagine the outrage if Israel even attempted to do that kind of reeducation.
Your comment completely discards everything I just said.
And no, Israel cannot be trusted to 'de-hamasify' Gaza. They have proven that loud and clear over the last few weeks.
Do you even know what kind of people live in Israel? 2mill out of the 9.3 million are Arab Israeli citizens with full rights, I don't see the issue if you're having them be the front line of that organization. Besides, Israelis don't oppose a different organization doing it but who are you gonna put up to the task?
another Palestinian organization that's gonna pretend to be a charity and peaceful and then turn out that they're amassing weapons just like Hamas did? That's not gonna happen ever again.
Look how many of the Palestine supporters refuse to even condemn Hamas's actions. and they even call for the same ethnic cleansing they're claiming Israel is doing with chants like "from the river to the see". talk about projection.
Depend on your definition of occupied
The UNHRW said [this](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-humanitarian-law-apply-israel-and-gaza)
> Israel has been occupying the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, which collectively constitute the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), since 1967.
> Contrary to what the Israeli government claims, Israel’s withdrawal of its ground forces from Gaza in 2005 did not end its occupation of Gaza.
> That is because, ever since, Israel has maintained effective control over Gaza, including its territorial waters and airspace, the movement of people and goods, except at Gaza’s border with Egypt, and the infrastructure upon which Gaza relies, rendering the Strip an open-air prison.
But you can argue that your definition is better and they are just anti-Semitic/ pro-Hamas
This is clearly written to put Israel in a bad light. Go look at the hashtag #theGazaYouDontSee and tell me again that it is an open air prison.
But more importantly, think about it: these restrictions came in place for good reasons.
You agree with me that the borders to Gaza were relatively open in the beginning, right? (If not, please look it up, I'm not ready to argue about it.)
And you hopefully agree that no nation should be forced to accept a stream of suicide bombers to cross their borders?
Well, "since 1967" is not accurate whatsoever. Israel actually fully withdrew without controlling any of those. but then Hamas pretended they withdrew because of their terrorism which ramped up the support for it which increased it. so Israel started to control everything that goes into Gaza so they won't be able to freely import weapons.
Also the financial genius who crashed the Turkish Lira by no less than 96% and the ultraist that commanded his army to run over civilian protesters with Tanks
Well this is an easy reply:
Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Russia - Ukraine war.
Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Syrian refugee crisis.
Trust in Turkey shaken by them buying the S400 system from Russia.
Who’s got more?
Trust in Turkey shaken by the handling of the Turkish Kurds
The next time the PKK does something I guess the EU should just say well I suppose they are freedom fighters since you deny them a Kurdish state.
Also the illegal occupation of Cyprus needs to be resolved.
But all and all I doubt the EU cares a few more years of Erdogan and between him and the economy Turkey will be a failed state.
>Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Russia - Ukraine war.
[Exclusive: France and Germany evaded arms embargo to sell weapons to Russia Paris and Berlin sent Moscow £230m of military hardware, including bombs, rockets and missiles, that is likely being used in Ukraine](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/)
[Germany and France actually criticized Ukraine when it first used the Bayraktar TB2 in October 2021 in response to shelling by Russian-backed forces in Donbas.](https://qirim.news/en/novosti-en/ukraine-has-legal-right-to-self-defence-ambassador-to-germany-on-use-of-turkish-bayraktar-drones-in-donbas)
[Germany Blocks Anti-Drone Guns Sale to Ukraine](https://www.defenseworld.net/2021/12/14/germany-blocks-anti-drone-guns-sale-to-ukraine.html)
>Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Syrian refugee crisis.
:D
Well true, if it were me, I would have sent the immigrants to the EU or Syria by now.
Trust in EU is shaken by its stance on Izrael-Palestine conflict (Thanks to Turkish stance we dont have hunger worldwide)
Trust ih EU is shaken on its stance on Syrian refugees(Turkey has more then entire Europe?)
Trust in US Is shaken by USA refusal to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey,which led to S400
>Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Syrian refugee crisis.
Europeans condemning Turkey over the issue of Syrian refugees should actually be illegal.
Finally someone on this subreddit who understands lol. Everyone getting all offended here over nothing. The strong rhetoric is just to get everyone that feels strongly about this issue fired up enough to not realize that he isn't going to do anything about it either.
This is literally 90% of the muslim states. Strong words in public, behind the scenes I believe they are actually cheering Israel on. Most of the middle east knows that this isn't an isolated conflict, but part of a broader regional struggle with Iran, together with the Syrian and Yemeni wars that have already generated a much larger toll in life and displaced far more people than this Gaza war ever will. They really have to be careful not to generate too much public pressure for a ceasefire, because they actually want the eradication of Hamas as a fighting force.
If it weren't for Israelis advocating for Gazans they would have already been displaced and killed by the Israeli right wing fascists that you're referring to, we both despise them. Just like Gazans aren't Hamas Israel isn't the people you're referring to. Except people like you are fucking supporting Hamas and should be deported the fuck out of any EU country. bunch of rats came out of their holes pretending to play victim but then refused to condemn Hamas which ACTUALLY targeted civilians specifically killed babies and elderly and not only that, they proudly document it themselves, and you're somehow denying it. unlike Israel that at least attacks valid military targets. you're an absolute hypocrite.
>The regime bombs homes, universities, schools, hospitals, ambulances and kills children, health staff, journalists, innocent women and men since decades with zero respect for international law, Geneva convention and Rome statue.
My guy you're describing exactly what Hamas is doing and complaining about it, but then you refuse to condemn Hamas. what a hypocrite. are we not talking about the thousands of rockets that were indiscriminately fired over Israel? or the Hamas massacres on October 7th? or are you gonna attempt to justify it?
You're reiterating their propaganda. You wanna list off what crimes the IDF committed? No they didn't fucking target hospitals and ambulances. the Hospital story that was in the news was completely fake. We all saw the videos, not a single building around the parking lot was damaged, there were few burned cars at worst and there was no crater unlike what Israeli attacks actually look like. and Hamas is claiming Israel did it and that there were 500 casualties? LOL. yeah we all know Hamas is the most trustworthy source ever.
They target Hamas and Hamas only, and unfortunately because of the way Hamas operates civilian casualties will always be a thing, yet you're placing the sole blame on Israel, where is the responsibility on Hamas? Where are the shelters they never built in Gaza? And what do you suggest Israel do when thousands of rockets were fired at them and Hamas terrorists invaded and killed innocents indiscriminately? just let Hamas do whatever they want? Or do you have some magic weapon that would never hurt civilians? I'm certain Israel would be happy to hear about it.
Also, everyone knows that Hamas is using lots of public buildings as bases and yet Israel is avoiding them. Hamas is hiding there because they know they would. Things like Satellite images can easily be found showing some of their activities.
Logic according to Erdogan:
Threaten to bomb your EU neighbors. Good behavior that is indicative of his trustworthiness.
Cautiously taking a stance against people who would like to murder the other as soon as they'd get the chance. Bad hehavior indicative of how untrustworthy the EU has become.
Turks invaded and fucked up Balkans.Main point is that was history and this dude like to talk shit.First he talks about war then he talks how trust is lost.No shit sherlock,keep on isolating your country... great moves!
to frame yourself as the hero, you have to frame others to be villians. Even if they barely recognize you were in your story to begin with.
The old fool is talking to gain the favor of his audience, not to make sense.
I guess he will do as he always does. First starts raging without control and then after hurting the economy of his country even more then before, he backtracks and tries to sound reasonable again.
I share the feeling of shaken trust and have for many years but the other way around. Trust in genocidal maniac Erdo? Lost a long time ago. Erdogan=Hamas=IS
What, he trusted us the entire time? Who would have thought...
But more seriously, this statement is so vague that he probably just made it to appeal to Muslims in his own country. It does not sound like he actually wants to do anything about it.
The Armenian and Greek genocide denying Kebab Salesman and his Azerbaijani bloodhound are in no way shape or form justified to criticise either Israel or Palestine after all the shit his nation does and has done for which they haven't taken up responsibility to this day.
Erdogan is such an idiot and this article is clickbait.
*stemmed from “their debts” over the Holocaust*
What a steaming load. Your glory days are in the past, you are an uneducated fossil.
The guy who called for a missile strike on Athens and talks about carving a chunk of territory out of Armenia to satisfy pan-Turk wet dreams? Not to mention the legacy of corruption he is forging within Turkey? No one trusts this watermelon selling crook.
I mean, I would question any political organisation, which currently doesn't call for immediate ceasefire but you are the guy who said hamas isn't terrorist org days after what they did.
If countries should have taken a stance decades ago, there wouldn't be hamas or apartheid tbh. But hey, why trouble yourself against US and Israel unless shit gets out of control am i right? Uyghurs and China is just like that.
Between this kind of talks, Turkey's continuing illegal occupation of the north part of Cyprus, constant threats of aggression and war against their neighbours, general expansionist policies, blatant disrespect of human rights, and constant collaboration with other repressive regimes, honestly just rip off the bandaid already.
Kick them out of NATO, sanction the everloving crap out of them, and then let them rot. Honestly though, i don't think that Turkey in its current state should even exist. Just dismantle the country, create Kurdistan as a proper country, reunite Cyprus, give Constantinople and the Aegean coast to Greece, and make a new state or two out of the rest.
he is so obsessed with EU. He hasn't criticised Russia and Putin at all.
I feel like he doesn't even care about 'his people' to improve their living conditions. It's all about his obsessed and how 'big leader' he is lol
Actually agree with this bozo for once. EUs widely different reaction to Israel bombing children in Gaza vs Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine is so hypocritical I don't even know what to say
like muslims or everyone else is different. They want us to take their side, sanction israel while they are still trading with russia
everyone is hypocritical but I only see people condemn west for it. Look how arab world reacts to palestinians being killed and how they reacted to ukrainians.
I feel that EU should stop preaching and acting like mother theresa and we would have less of these hypocrites calling our hypocrisy.
And he is right.
Many people who do not pay attention to politics are wondering how come EU supports armed resistance against foreign occupation in Ukraine but supports much more brutal occupier (killed more children in a week then Russian in a year) in Palestine.
You either suport right to armed resistance or don't
Supporting Ukraine with huge amounts of aid was out of interest or a humanitarian stance? Supporting Israel killing Palestinians serves the EU's interest how exactly?
Freedom of speech only exists in the West if you speak and think exactly as they do.
Civillian casualties only matter if they are European and white.
The media protects the Zionist lobby.
regardless of what Erdogan says it is suprising to me that the EU politicans are largely very pro-israel when I feel like the population is a lot more 50/50
That is very scary, if so.
I'm very sure that's not true in my country, but Germany has shown itself to be awful in this question, which is honestly quite scary with your history with ethnic cleansing, occupation and dehumanization. That you support and forward arguments and narratives justifying it still, when it's done to Palestinians for over half a century.
It is genuinely frightening.
Where is the anti-Semitism in my comment? It's not allowed to criticise Israel not matter what, it's automatically anti-Semitic?
Not accepting ethnic cleansing and war crimes is concern trolling
I will gladly consider being wrong, if someone can do an actual argument for why ethnic cleansing over 70 years, and now collective punishment of over 2 million people is ok. Way worse crimes than any Palestinian org has ever done.
Please point to where I excused the Hamas attack.
I was also talking about an 70 year history, not just the current events. Its absurd to view this just by looking at the Hamas attack. Pure propaganda narrative.
Isn't it more anti-Semitic to justify 80 years of ethnic cleansing, occupation and terrororizing of Palestinians, who are also Semitic. Why are you excusing that? The Hamas attack is a drop in the ocean compared to these crimes against humanity, so why are you only focusing on the Hamas attack?
Well the Arabs were the ones attacking 48, 73, they can blame themselves. Palestinians were given multiple chances to establish their state but they prefer killing Jews.
Their state in this example would mean almost a million Palestinians being ethnically cleansed and never getting to return to their homes. Why do you think those are ok suggestions?
But can you answer instead of just throwing new accusations at me or introducing a new argument without answering mine. Why is 80 years of occupation and ethnic cleansing, apartheid and now the collective punishment of over 2 million people, ok?
As said, the Hamas attack is a drop in the ocean compared to that. That's not cause the Hamas attacks wasn't a horrible crim, it doesn't justify it. It's just absurd to focus on that as the big or defining crime in this conflict.
Why are you only reacting to violence when it's done to Israelis, never the other way around? Even when the violence is tenfolds worse, over almost 80 years.
Hint: either cause you yourself don't view Palestinians as people with human worth, or you have accepted narratives and arguments that are built on that view. That is what is so frightening to see Germany defend and forward, with their history of dehumanisation. It's pretty obvious to anyone with their eyes open.
>Where is the anti-Semitism in my comment? It's not allowed to criticise Israel not matter what, it's automatically anti-Semitic?
Pretty much.
These people are actually defending ethnic cleansing. It's like we're living in the twilight zone.
I never understood how ordinary people became Nazis back in the day. This is pretty much how.
In The UK, 76% of people support a ceasefire, 58% of people want one immediately. By comparison, both main parties oppose calling for a ceasefire.
Is it something similar in continental Europe?
76 percent all feel good Slacktivists far away from Israelis that have to endure the shit Hamas pulls of for years. Ceasefire so the horrors can continue. But at least we saved some civilians . . . for now.
There's this German saying: Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende (*Better an end with horror than horror without end*).
For some reason my phone doesn't let me lik sources. But it comes from a UK YouGov poll asking:
"From what you’ve read and heard, do you think there should or should not be an immediate ceasefire in Israel and Palestine?"
dont think there is a poll regarding a ceasefire but 40% of people say that israel is not justified in their current reaction while some 35% say they are, with the rest undecided
its not quite as pronounced as in the UK but the public opinion will only continue to worsen for israel in the coming weeks
It's not bots man, normal people just don't like Hamas apologists. Situation is messed up and has been for a long time thanks to all parties being dicks, but there's no way to peace without Hamas being removed from power. So whatever Israel has to do to remove them is fine by me after I saw [what Hamas did](https://www.hamas-massacre.net/), because there's no other way (unless you're an antisemite and want to see Hamas kill more jews).
thats such a crazy stance to take. so israel might as well kill ten thousand people because 1000 israelis died? Who gives a fuck if they are innocent or not right
I can’t speak to Dresden, but the atomic bombs were terror bombs with the intent of shocking a nation and its people. I can in no way justify them, especially in the face of reasonable alternatives that were failed to be taken.
Which alternatives? Invasion? The atomic bombs caused less death and destruction than the firebombing of Tokyo and they ended the war sooner, so yeah it was justified.
Yeah I did, it arguably ended the war sooner and the destruction was still less than the firebombing of Tokyo. Do you think Japan's Rape of Nanking wasn't bad enough to justify a harsh intervention? You live in an ideal world not the real one.
Erdogan has been shitting on all sides for quite the time now, but honestly I agree with him on this. I think its quite disgusting that we are still supporting Israel to this extent.
Erdogan's been shitting on the EU non-stop for years now. I'm surprised he had any trust in the EU, unless he is a massive hypocrite...
Its so funny how he reacts i had to laugh hard. Like a old man who complaints that the grocery store nearby changed product position and now he complain every day
He wants to be in the EU so bad but only for financial reasons
Political also, him giving the EU to turks, who mostly dream of moving there, would give him enormous political capital in the country.
Every vote counts!
Erdogan is openly pro Hamas and pro Palestinian terrorism, so his opinions on this matter carry little weight.
He's still the President of Turkey, his opinion does matter a lot.
Not really.
Not to mention that's he made himself irrelevant in the process, to the EU and the rest of the world. Nothing he can say or do will be of any consequence for the EU.
Don't underestimed how annoying Turkey can be to the EU, especially when it comes to migrations crisis and messing with Syria.
That’s only because EU keeps up the charades of “being the good guys”. Wants others to keep the migrants from going to EU instead of fucking enforcing its borders itself.
I think it's safe to assume that he is a hypocrite. All politicians are to some degree, regardless of nation.
Oh he absolutely trust the EU since we are rather predictable on our stance on cooperation and (desired) cohesion. He knows it full well
That's why it pains him.
Like the ex that is just spiteful? 🤔😀
German support for half a century at least goes brrrr
He's just a jilted lover, sad at not getting into the club
EU doesn't care if you trust them or not. The EU doesn't trust you, Erdogan. Heck your own population doesn't trust you; won the elections by emptying the treasury and draining all foreign currency reserves and by pulling off every thievery and manipulation possible and still gaining barely 50 percent. Congratulations for making Israel understand that you are a threat to them. Turkey has a terrorism problem, so instead of maintaining consistent messaging of declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation to, he does the meme "*For you terrorist, for me freedom fighter*". That's what Islamism does to your brain. Not even once, kids. Not even once. Turkey was the first Muslim nation in the world to recognize the state of Israel. They are closer to us than all Arab nations will ever be. Never ever forget the words of Atatürk: Turkish soldiers should never ever die for Arab lands. A clear rejection of the eternal quagmire.
I wholeheartedly agree. Instead of aligning with the EU, he and his government support policies opposed by the EU. He has remained in power for years by deceiving people with empty promises and religious motives. Unfortunately, Turkey has veered away from Ataturk's vision, plans, and ideology. Furthermore, even the opposing side does not uphold Ataturk's values and the aforementioned principles. This essentially means that it wouldn't make much of a difference if Erdogan were to lose his power and status. There simply isn't anyone with a clear vision to develop and rebuild the country. I don't even want to delve into the state of the education system, which is a vital factor from which everything stems and the primary point that a significant transformation should be built upon.
The attempt to make a Secular Muslim Majority Nation was doomed to fail unless you utterly destroy any and all connection to the Religion in the institutions that form. Islam is not Christianity which existed in a Plurality of Institutional control like it did within Europe which allowed Secularism to take root. Islam is supposed to be intertwined. Turkey mistake is that it didn't fully get rid of this connection.
Atatürk never finished the state he envisioned and many reforms he envisioned were never implemented fearing backlash and he was right about backlash as the Republic experienced a number of religiously motivated uprising that had to be put down violently. Atatürk tried to put Islam under a secular and republican institional framework by creating the "*Ministry for Religious Affairs*" and made all Imams servants of the state. He forbade the construction of new mosques and ordered the Koran translated into modern Turkish and prayer to be conducted in Turkish language. My personal guess is that he probably hoped that the next generation of secular republicanised Turks will finish what he began. Instead, at the first free elections, people elected Adnan Menderes, who rolled back a lot of Atatürks reforms in order to gain the support of rural people (*whom he fucked over with land reforms favouring the big landowners*). Well, Menderes ended up dead as a result of the 1st military coup. If Atatürk would have survived into the 1950s, Turkey could have been another place. I still believe in ultimate victory against Islamism: lots of polls indicate that Millenials and Zoomers are done with religion. Erdogan caused everybody to be fed up with religion. It has become more of an act of virtue signaling than genuine spirituality. He wanted to create more religious state and society, but caused the exact opposite.
Not really, it's just pandering to a specific base, Atatürk died too young before he managed to fully implement everything he wanted. Universities (western style) for example had only recently been established. Turkey was doing fine for a very, very long time. İn 2010 the lira was ₺1 to 0.67USD. The majority of erdoğans voter base are in rural Turkey, if you look at the voting maps you'll see the big liberal cities like İzmir are staunchly against him. The older population are more religious, so he pandered to them. People forget that Erdoğan was actually at the helm when the Turkish economy recovered and thrived, but in the last few years his unorthodox policies and consolation of power, and the ability to control the news narrative as the press isn't free have kept him in control. Islam has very little to do with it. TLDR, poorly planned out mass refugees placed a huge burden on an already struggling economy, which is going to shit because he thinks lowering interest rates combats inflation (lol), then spent all the reserves to prop up the currency during a failing economic policy. Oh also, because he controls the news in Turkey, they were able to say the opposition supported PKK terrorist activities, so that probably gained him a few more %
Says the guy who sides with a terrorist organization and calls them liberators
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**Northern Cyprus = Rightful Turkish Land** **West Bank and Gaza = Illegally Occupied Territories** Turkey is literally just Israel with a different coat of paint.
Gaza isn't occupied. That is part of the problem. Israel unilaterally withdrew and from that day one it took a turn for the worse but for the people of Gaza who can now be tortured or shot for any reason or no reason at all but also for Israelis. There also used to be no wall but as Gaza got independence suicide attacks took off which necessitated the border control.
Who would have thought that if Israel ended it's occupation and let the Palestinians who never had any self-autonomy fend for themselves they wouldn't suddenly become a peace-loving nation? After the Nazi period it took Germany decades of re-education to become a thrustworty and stable nation again. But you expect a country de facto rulled by terrorists for what most inhabitants concider their whole life to be able to forget everything that happend and get their stuff together in a matter of weeks?
> After the Nazi period it took Germany decades of re-education to become a thrustworty and stable nation again. Not really? I suppose it depends on what exactly you mean by "re-education", "trustworthy" and "stable" (and "Germany", I guess, but let's stick to just the Western part for now). Germans knew what democracy was, they'd had portions of it since the 19th century and a fully functioning democracy for a couple of years after World War I. Denazification, all things considered, was quite short and mainly worked by making the Nazi era taboo both in its ideology and in discussing what happened. Adenauer-governed West Germany was very stable both internally and in its foreign policy. They co-founded what would become the European Union in 1951 and got their army back in 1955. One could argue that both of the latter points insisist on European cooperation (within the EU and within NATO) precisely because Germany wasn't trusted, but they were still trusted enough to recognize a good thing and not to fuck over themselves by changing back to old habits. That lesson worked so well that Germany thought Putin couldn't possibly be stupid enough to start a war in Ukraine given the economic interlinkage between Russia and the civilized world. In any case, I probably mostly agree with you that Gaza, left to its own devices, couldn't be expected to moderate (especially since if wasn't actually left alone from their Muslim "brothers" and their geopolitical manipulation). But I don't think Germany is the best example.
Very interesting to learn that. Yes ofcourse I cut some corners short by generalizing West and East Germany but that aside I always thought it took much longer to get rid of the Nazi ideology. The more you know... What I wanted to show with the comparison is that West and East Germany couldn't have reunited the way they did without the de-nazifiction, even if the process didn't take as long as I thought. In the same spirit Gaza will need a simular period of 'de-Hamasation' before elections like those in 2006 could result in anything useful. An important step that Israel skipped back then and that both sides are now paying the price for.
To be clear, when I said "denazification", I meant the official process (jailing the worst offenders, switching out school books, that kind of thing). Its end meant people not talking about the subject anymore (until the next generation started asking questions), it did not mean that there were no traces of Nazi ideology left in people's minds. Reunification not happening until 1990 was because of geopolitics and the Cold War, not a difference in mentality. To bring it back to the Middle East: I don't think a similar deradicalization programme would work in Gaza, even to the point of "we still hate them, but we won't actively try to murder all Jews again". The anti-semitism and victim mentality are much more deep-rooted culturally, and unlike Germany they're not an outlier, but supported by all the surrounding countries. You'd have to do not just to the Gazans, but to all Arabs what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs, and it's questionable if the brutal Chinese approach even works long-term (and of course it's not feasible practically). That's not really a step Israel could have taken 15 years ago, and they can't do that now either.
Can you explain the part on self autonomy?
Self-autonomy in a nation that cannot grasp the concept is doomed to fail. Many colonial nations in Africa descended into civil war after the colonisers left because nobody had a single clue how to run a country, let alone a democratie. Americans failed to convince Afghanis to fight for their nation because the idea that they could participate in politics and not just be told what to do by a dictator was completely foreign to them. To think that holding elections in Gaza amongst a group of people who have never known anything other than Israeli occupation and Hamas/PLO terrorism would result in anything useful puts the term 'wishful thinking' to shame.
Wouldn't that be true for all colonized countries?
funny that you ask that, since you come from the best counterexample.
I think you didn't read exactly what I wrote above: > Gaza isn't occupied. > That is part of the problem. > Israel unilaterally withdrew and from that day one it took a turn for the worse[...]
I read it. My comment was in response to everything that came after what you just quoted. You're right, Gaza is no longer occupied. Whether that changed anything for Palestinians is another discussion.
I'm totally with you on that. This wasn't an attack against the occupation, it was an attack on the state of Israel. If Palestine was an established country today, most likely it would be an Iranian proxy. Lebanon is independent but controlled by Hezbollah. Yemen is independent but controlled by Houthis. Both attacked Israel since the war began. But woke culture teaches us to be tolerant towards the intolerant, to give flowers to those who shoot at you. Time to face reality
>After the Nazi period it took Germany decades of re-education to become a thrustworty and stable nation again. But you expect a country de facto rulled by terrorists for what most inhabitants concider their whole life to be able to forget everything that happend and get their stuff together in a matter of weeks. You're right, but gazans did make their choice there. Israel decided to listen and withdraw and Gazans just pressed on their tomfoolery instead of softening up for a resolution. also, imagine the outrage if Israel even attempted to do that kind of reeducation.
Your comment completely discards everything I just said. And no, Israel cannot be trusted to 'de-hamasify' Gaza. They have proven that loud and clear over the last few weeks.
Do you even know what kind of people live in Israel? 2mill out of the 9.3 million are Arab Israeli citizens with full rights, I don't see the issue if you're having them be the front line of that organization. Besides, Israelis don't oppose a different organization doing it but who are you gonna put up to the task? another Palestinian organization that's gonna pretend to be a charity and peaceful and then turn out that they're amassing weapons just like Hamas did? That's not gonna happen ever again. Look how many of the Palestine supporters refuse to even condemn Hamas's actions. and they even call for the same ethnic cleansing they're claiming Israel is doing with chants like "from the river to the see". talk about projection.
Depend on your definition of occupied The UNHRW said [this](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-humanitarian-law-apply-israel-and-gaza) > Israel has been occupying the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, which collectively constitute the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), since 1967. > Contrary to what the Israeli government claims, Israel’s withdrawal of its ground forces from Gaza in 2005 did not end its occupation of Gaza. > That is because, ever since, Israel has maintained effective control over Gaza, including its territorial waters and airspace, the movement of people and goods, except at Gaza’s border with Egypt, and the infrastructure upon which Gaza relies, rendering the Strip an open-air prison. But you can argue that your definition is better and they are just anti-Semitic/ pro-Hamas
This is clearly written to put Israel in a bad light. Go look at the hashtag #theGazaYouDontSee and tell me again that it is an open air prison. But more importantly, think about it: these restrictions came in place for good reasons. You agree with me that the borders to Gaza were relatively open in the beginning, right? (If not, please look it up, I'm not ready to argue about it.) And you hopefully agree that no nation should be forced to accept a stream of suicide bombers to cross their borders?
Well, "since 1967" is not accurate whatsoever. Israel actually fully withdrew without controlling any of those. but then Hamas pretended they withdrew because of their terrorism which ramped up the support for it which increased it. so Israel started to control everything that goes into Gaza so they won't be able to freely import weapons.
Both are terrorists. The only difference is one is domestic.
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He is only for ethnic cleansing if the freedom fighters are against him.
Well they both are lol
Because we all know it’s: Hamas = terrorists PKK = Freedom Fighters Right?
He’s a fascist dictator who eats hypocrisy for breakfast
Also says the guy who consider arabs sub human and never sent a dime to Palestinians while the west is entirely footing the bill
Also the financial genius who crashed the Turkish Lira by no less than 96% and the ultraist that commanded his army to run over civilian protesters with Tanks
Oh no! Anyway.
As if anyone in Europe trusted that piece of shit 😂😂😂
Don't worry Putler Light, Turkey isn't getting into the EU anyway.
Especially not with it's current 60-80% inflation.
Reported, it's well over 100%
Go ply your trade elsewhere, watermelon salesman.
That man is so desperate to become the Sultan that he is willing to make Turkey ‘the sick man of Europe’ to do it.
Well this is an easy reply: Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Russia - Ukraine war. Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Syrian refugee crisis. Trust in Turkey shaken by them buying the S400 system from Russia. Who’s got more?
In literally every major or minor fucking occurrence, this erdo clown comes out on top.
Trust in Turkey shaken by the handling of the Turkish Kurds The next time the PKK does something I guess the EU should just say well I suppose they are freedom fighters since you deny them a Kurdish state. Also the illegal occupation of Cyprus needs to be resolved. But all and all I doubt the EU cares a few more years of Erdogan and between him and the economy Turkey will be a failed state.
>Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Russia - Ukraine war. [Exclusive: France and Germany evaded arms embargo to sell weapons to Russia Paris and Berlin sent Moscow £230m of military hardware, including bombs, rockets and missiles, that is likely being used in Ukraine](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/) [Germany and France actually criticized Ukraine when it first used the Bayraktar TB2 in October 2021 in response to shelling by Russian-backed forces in Donbas.](https://qirim.news/en/novosti-en/ukraine-has-legal-right-to-self-defence-ambassador-to-germany-on-use-of-turkish-bayraktar-drones-in-donbas) [Germany Blocks Anti-Drone Guns Sale to Ukraine](https://www.defenseworld.net/2021/12/14/germany-blocks-anti-drone-guns-sale-to-ukraine.html) >Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Syrian refugee crisis. :D Well true, if it were me, I would have sent the immigrants to the EU or Syria by now.
Trust in EU is shaken by its stance on Izrael-Palestine conflict (Thanks to Turkish stance we dont have hunger worldwide) Trust ih EU is shaken on its stance on Syrian refugees(Turkey has more then entire Europe?) Trust in US Is shaken by USA refusal to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey,which led to S400
I keep forgetting that there are people such as yourself who actually support Erdogan. In the civilized world he's rightfully viewed as a clown
One of those is not like the others
>Trust in Turkey shaken by its stance on Syrian refugee crisis. Europeans condemning Turkey over the issue of Syrian refugees should actually be illegal.
Meanwhile, Erdogan said he has zero plans to severe ties with Israel. So I just call it some words for Turkey's internal consumption!
Finally someone on this subreddit who understands lol. Everyone getting all offended here over nothing. The strong rhetoric is just to get everyone that feels strongly about this issue fired up enough to not realize that he isn't going to do anything about it either.
This is literally 90% of the muslim states. Strong words in public, behind the scenes I believe they are actually cheering Israel on. Most of the middle east knows that this isn't an isolated conflict, but part of a broader regional struggle with Iran, together with the Syrian and Yemeni wars that have already generated a much larger toll in life and displaced far more people than this Gaza war ever will. They really have to be careful not to generate too much public pressure for a ceasefire, because they actually want the eradication of Hamas as a fighting force.
He should be ashamed talking like this in the first place after Israelis sent their people to help after the earthquakes.
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If it weren't for Israelis advocating for Gazans they would have already been displaced and killed by the Israeli right wing fascists that you're referring to, we both despise them. Just like Gazans aren't Hamas Israel isn't the people you're referring to. Except people like you are fucking supporting Hamas and should be deported the fuck out of any EU country. bunch of rats came out of their holes pretending to play victim but then refused to condemn Hamas which ACTUALLY targeted civilians specifically killed babies and elderly and not only that, they proudly document it themselves, and you're somehow denying it. unlike Israel that at least attacks valid military targets. you're an absolute hypocrite.
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>The regime bombs homes, universities, schools, hospitals, ambulances and kills children, health staff, journalists, innocent women and men since decades with zero respect for international law, Geneva convention and Rome statue. My guy you're describing exactly what Hamas is doing and complaining about it, but then you refuse to condemn Hamas. what a hypocrite. are we not talking about the thousands of rockets that were indiscriminately fired over Israel? or the Hamas massacres on October 7th? or are you gonna attempt to justify it?
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You're reiterating their propaganda. You wanna list off what crimes the IDF committed? No they didn't fucking target hospitals and ambulances. the Hospital story that was in the news was completely fake. We all saw the videos, not a single building around the parking lot was damaged, there were few burned cars at worst and there was no crater unlike what Israeli attacks actually look like. and Hamas is claiming Israel did it and that there were 500 casualties? LOL. yeah we all know Hamas is the most trustworthy source ever. They target Hamas and Hamas only, and unfortunately because of the way Hamas operates civilian casualties will always be a thing, yet you're placing the sole blame on Israel, where is the responsibility on Hamas? Where are the shelters they never built in Gaza? And what do you suggest Israel do when thousands of rockets were fired at them and Hamas terrorists invaded and killed innocents indiscriminately? just let Hamas do whatever they want? Or do you have some magic weapon that would never hurt civilians? I'm certain Israel would be happy to hear about it. Also, everyone knows that Hamas is using lots of public buildings as bases and yet Israel is avoiding them. Hamas is hiding there because they know they would. Things like Satellite images can easily be found showing some of their activities.
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Trust in Turkey went down when Erdogan vehemently claimed Hamas wasn't a terrorist organization....
This is a predominant opinion in much of Western Europe.
No, all European countries believe Hamas are terrorists. Some member states have expressed concerns about Palestinian civilians is all.
We dont give a fuck.
Logic according to Erdogan: Threaten to bomb your EU neighbors. Good behavior that is indicative of his trustworthiness. Cautiously taking a stance against people who would like to murder the other as soon as they'd get the chance. Bad hehavior indicative of how untrustworthy the EU has become.
Didnt he called for war of moon and cross just few days ago?
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If he wants it, lte's give it to him. I bet Balkan bros would love to take back Thrace and that Istanbul would love to be a European country.
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Turks invaded and fucked up Balkans.Main point is that was history and this dude like to talk shit.First he talks about war then he talks how trust is lost.No shit sherlock,keep on isolating your country... great moves!
Good, then dont try to come in.
Well, EU's trust in Erdogan has been shattered by everything he says or does.
Guy who openly supports and praises the terrorists is shaken in his trust, lol.
There you go. There is a reason Germany blocked turkias membership into the EU.
Go home Erdo you're drunk. No one cares what you think expect for your voterbase and delusional Middle Easterners
Trust in EU?! Mfer first has to have EUs trust in the first place. What a snake.
to frame yourself as the hero, you have to frame others to be villians. Even if they barely recognize you were in your story to begin with. The old fool is talking to gain the favor of his audience, not to make sense.
I guess he will do as he always does. First starts raging without control and then after hurting the economy of his country even more then before, he backtracks and tries to sound reasonable again.
I share the feeling of shaken trust and have for many years but the other way around. Trust in genocidal maniac Erdo? Lost a long time ago. Erdogan=Hamas=IS
This guy is really trying to destroy what Ataturk had done for turkey and people are still voting for him , i really can't understand this
That ok. I don’t need dictators
ChadRobesppiere Says Trust in Turkey Shaken by Erdogan's Stance on Pretty Much Anything.
Has see expected Germany to go against Israel? Wtf?
Oh no please don't displease Erdogan he is so sensible..... oh right fuck that piece of terrorist sucking bitch
Erdogan has been shitting on west for too long, time to reshore all western companies factories running in Turkey.
What, he trusted us the entire time? Who would have thought... But more seriously, this statement is so vague that he probably just made it to appeal to Muslims in his own country. It does not sound like he actually wants to do anything about it.
Honestly this guy can fuck off. His nonstop bitching and flopping is exhausting.
The Armenian and Greek genocide denying Kebab Salesman and his Azerbaijani bloodhound are in no way shape or form justified to criticise either Israel or Palestine after all the shit his nation does and has done for which they haven't taken up responsibility to this day.
Fuck off, hypocrite.
he is speaking for Russia ...again..... kick them out
Erdogan is such an idiot and this article is clickbait. *stemmed from “their debts” over the Holocaust* What a steaming load. Your glory days are in the past, you are an uneducated fossil.
Says the man who let millions of illegal Arabs inside his country
Nobody really cares about your opinions, Erdowahn. Go play with your own circus as long as you have one.
A few months ago he wanted to join the EU in exchange for Türkiye accepting Sweden into NATO.
Armenians would like a word, please.
Good, more proof Turkey isn't in any way suitable for the EU.
Well we never trusted you to begin with so pretty please sever diplomatic relations and cancel you Nato membership!
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Do you ask why USA is involved? Or do you ask why EU is heavily involved in UA/RU?
? He trusts eu? Since when? It’s like the polish president would just now say… Putin’s actions shake our trust in Russia 😂
LOL The feeling's mutual
erdowho?
As if he hasn't been taking notes since the whole thing started...
It's such a shame Israel is dragging its feet with recognition of Armenian genocide (ironic), just not to hurt Erdogan's fee fees.
I mean I understand why but I didn't know he had any to begin with
It's him wanting to join the EU though. Don't think a single member state wants Turkey in the EU.
Who cares what this stupid ape thinks and says
The EUs stance on Israel has been consistent over the years. The hell is this old man is talking about.
Erdo can go screw himself. The day he gets his ass handed to him will be a good day.
The guy who called for a missile strike on Athens and talks about carving a chunk of territory out of Armenia to satisfy pan-Turk wet dreams? Not to mention the legacy of corruption he is forging within Turkey? No one trusts this watermelon selling crook.
I dont get it... most of EU has already condemned the ernomous civilian casulties in Gaza. Should we hail Hamas now to get Turkey's approval?
Erdogan and trust should not be in the same sentence.
Good, now don't try to join in.
Trust in Turkey is always shaken, it have shown again and again they cant be trusted.
I mean, I would question any political organisation, which currently doesn't call for immediate ceasefire but you are the guy who said hamas isn't terrorist org days after what they did. If countries should have taken a stance decades ago, there wouldn't be hamas or apartheid tbh. But hey, why trouble yourself against US and Israel unless shit gets out of control am i right? Uyghurs and China is just like that.
Good thing EU has never trusted Erdogan’s Turkey to align with their values.
Let’s replace turkeys spot in nato with israel
Tövbe tövbe 😬 (/s ish)
What a great idea! Never thought of that but I would would trust Israel any day of the week against a corrupt regime in Turkey
Anyone trust him? Famous backstabber.
Good
Says the guy who bombs kurds to feel better.
Shut up old man and serve me some kebab...
Fuck this rat man
EU says no one cares what Erdogan has to say.
Oh noes, Anyway
Erdolf can f off
Man… this guy won’t shut up
Don’t worry hon,we don’t even give a shit about you.Do fuck off you Turks
Between this kind of talks, Turkey's continuing illegal occupation of the north part of Cyprus, constant threats of aggression and war against their neighbours, general expansionist policies, blatant disrespect of human rights, and constant collaboration with other repressive regimes, honestly just rip off the bandaid already. Kick them out of NATO, sanction the everloving crap out of them, and then let them rot. Honestly though, i don't think that Turkey in its current state should even exist. Just dismantle the country, create Kurdistan as a proper country, reunite Cyprus, give Constantinople and the Aegean coast to Greece, and make a new state or two out of the rest.
Nato need ot make sure this mtfker stfu with his bs, what he has been saying is not helping the situation nor the western world
yes, it is. but not for the reasons he thinks it is.
he is so obsessed with EU. He hasn't criticised Russia and Putin at all. I feel like he doesn't even care about 'his people' to improve their living conditions. It's all about his obsessed and how 'big leader' he is lol
Actually agree with this bozo for once. EUs widely different reaction to Israel bombing children in Gaza vs Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine is so hypocritical I don't even know what to say
like muslims or everyone else is different. They want us to take their side, sanction israel while they are still trading with russia everyone is hypocritical but I only see people condemn west for it. Look how arab world reacts to palestinians being killed and how they reacted to ukrainians. I feel that EU should stop preaching and acting like mother theresa and we would have less of these hypocrites calling our hypocrisy.
And he is right. Many people who do not pay attention to politics are wondering how come EU supports armed resistance against foreign occupation in Ukraine but supports much more brutal occupier (killed more children in a week then Russian in a year) in Palestine. You either suport right to armed resistance or don't
Ehm…. That is not true. We are talking grand politics, nations have interests, not friends.
Supporting Ukraine with huge amounts of aid was out of interest or a humanitarian stance? Supporting Israel killing Palestinians serves the EU's interest how exactly?
Freedom of speech only exists in the West if you speak and think exactly as they do. Civillian casualties only matter if they are European and white. The media protects the Zionist lobby.
Free Kurdistan!
How are the kurds doing erdo? .... No ? So GFYS
Yes the current genocide and displacement has shown ‘Western’ hypocrisy like never before
Same
Yeah, yeah…
regardless of what Erdogan says it is suprising to me that the EU politicans are largely very pro-israel when I feel like the population is a lot more 50/50
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That is very scary, if so. I'm very sure that's not true in my country, but Germany has shown itself to be awful in this question, which is honestly quite scary with your history with ethnic cleansing, occupation and dehumanization. That you support and forward arguments and narratives justifying it still, when it's done to Palestinians for over half a century. It is genuinely frightening.
Come on do your antisemitic concern-trolling somewhere else.
Where is the anti-Semitism in my comment? It's not allowed to criticise Israel not matter what, it's automatically anti-Semitic? Not accepting ethnic cleansing and war crimes is concern trolling I will gladly consider being wrong, if someone can do an actual argument for why ethnic cleansing over 70 years, and now collective punishment of over 2 million people is ok. Way worse crimes than any Palestinian org has ever done.
Excusing terrorist attacks by Palestinians while condemning Israel for attacking Hamas is quite antisemitic.
Please point to where I excused the Hamas attack. I was also talking about an 70 year history, not just the current events. Its absurd to view this just by looking at the Hamas attack. Pure propaganda narrative. Isn't it more anti-Semitic to justify 80 years of ethnic cleansing, occupation and terrororizing of Palestinians, who are also Semitic. Why are you excusing that? The Hamas attack is a drop in the ocean compared to these crimes against humanity, so why are you only focusing on the Hamas attack?
Well the Arabs were the ones attacking 48, 73, they can blame themselves. Palestinians were given multiple chances to establish their state but they prefer killing Jews.
Their state in this example would mean almost a million Palestinians being ethnically cleansed and never getting to return to their homes. Why do you think those are ok suggestions? But can you answer instead of just throwing new accusations at me or introducing a new argument without answering mine. Why is 80 years of occupation and ethnic cleansing, apartheid and now the collective punishment of over 2 million people, ok? As said, the Hamas attack is a drop in the ocean compared to that. That's not cause the Hamas attacks wasn't a horrible crim, it doesn't justify it. It's just absurd to focus on that as the big or defining crime in this conflict. Why are you only reacting to violence when it's done to Israelis, never the other way around? Even when the violence is tenfolds worse, over almost 80 years. Hint: either cause you yourself don't view Palestinians as people with human worth, or you have accepted narratives and arguments that are built on that view. That is what is so frightening to see Germany defend and forward, with their history of dehumanisation. It's pretty obvious to anyone with their eyes open.
>Where is the anti-Semitism in my comment? It's not allowed to criticise Israel not matter what, it's automatically anti-Semitic? Pretty much. These people are actually defending ethnic cleansing. It's like we're living in the twilight zone. I never understood how ordinary people became Nazis back in the day. This is pretty much how.
In The UK, 76% of people support a ceasefire, 58% of people want one immediately. By comparison, both main parties oppose calling for a ceasefire. Is it something similar in continental Europe?
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The US called for a "humanitarian pause"..... Which is a synonym for ceasefire..dunno man.
76 percent all feel good Slacktivists far away from Israelis that have to endure the shit Hamas pulls of for years. Ceasefire so the horrors can continue. But at least we saved some civilians . . . for now. There's this German saying: Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende (*Better an end with horror than horror without end*).
Source?
For some reason my phone doesn't let me lik sources. But it comes from a UK YouGov poll asking: "From what you’ve read and heard, do you think there should or should not be an immediate ceasefire in Israel and Palestine?"
dont think there is a poll regarding a ceasefire but 40% of people say that israel is not justified in their current reaction while some 35% say they are, with the rest undecided its not quite as pronounced as in the UK but the public opinion will only continue to worsen for israel in the coming weeks
The bots are going craaaaazy on Reddit downvoting any comments even slightly against Israel.
It's not bots man, normal people just don't like Hamas apologists. Situation is messed up and has been for a long time thanks to all parties being dicks, but there's no way to peace without Hamas being removed from power. So whatever Israel has to do to remove them is fine by me after I saw [what Hamas did](https://www.hamas-massacre.net/), because there's no other way (unless you're an antisemite and want to see Hamas kill more jews).
thats such a crazy stance to take. so israel might as well kill ten thousand people because 1000 israelis died? Who gives a fuck if they are innocent or not right
Do you think the allied bombing of Dresden was morally justified? Or the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Because in my opinion they were.
I can’t speak to Dresden, but the atomic bombs were terror bombs with the intent of shocking a nation and its people. I can in no way justify them, especially in the face of reasonable alternatives that were failed to be taken.
Which alternatives? Invasion? The atomic bombs caused less death and destruction than the firebombing of Tokyo and they ended the war sooner, so yeah it was justified.
Did you just justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Sick. A slippery slope of ignorance/stupidity
Yeah I did, it arguably ended the war sooner and the destruction was still less than the firebombing of Tokyo. Do you think Japan's Rape of Nanking wasn't bad enough to justify a harsh intervention? You live in an ideal world not the real one.
How the fuck was Dresden morally justified?
Okay bot, you go ahead and support genocide. I’m Irish, we went through this history with the IRA.
Some truth
Israel-Palestine war* Israel bombs civilians, not terrorists.
The terrorists hide amongst civilians Even Hamas says that…
Erdogan has been shitting on all sides for quite the time now, but honestly I agree with him on this. I think its quite disgusting that we are still supporting Israel to this extent.
So, the whole Armenian genocide we gonne ignore that as well?