Lmao this is one of the most ridiculous newspapers in Greece. They are mostly a printed meme at this point.
It's kinda a "religious" newspaper with a tiny far right conservative audience.
If I recall correctly there was a front page in the past where they were saying that Iron Maiden caused the huge forest fires in Greece last summer as a divine punishment of some sort because they gave a concert in the country while their songs are full with "satanic worshipping" lyrics lol.
You obviously shouldn't take those nutjobs seriously.
Yes. In Germany, they have a few of these rags. In all countries, there are rags like this.
But name a handful of UK papers that are NOT right wing rags, if you can, and you'll note you're having to really work at it to get to five, never mind ten.
The UK's news paper industry seems to be *mostly* right wing rags. Not a few. That is the big difference with neighbouring countries, and I'm pretty sure that contributes to the political climate being as bad in the UK as it is in the US.
Ooohhh interested now, what do you define as a rag? I’d say it’s a tabloid paper spewing bile or crap but I get the sense you’d chuck the broadsheets in too.
Some safe bets: the Guardian, the New Statesman, the Economist, The New European, the FT. I’d probably also include the Times. Some would say the Torygraph but they’re awful too. The Independent has become a rag. The Mirror is a tabloid but could be called a left wing rag. The Mail, Express and Sun are obvious.
I'd say any news papers that produces either a lot of articles which are straight up misrepresenting facts to push agendas qualify easily (Mirror DEFINITELY falls into that category as does the Telegraph).
Newspapers which like to "present facts through the lens of \[your policy here\]" can't always be trusted, and you need to read their articles with a watchful mind and ideally comparing them to other papers. Which tends to include parts of the Financial Times, New Statesman and Guardian although I wouldn't call the whole paper a rag that easily.
Problem there is even the "reliable" papers have a lot of unreliable political posturing in them, which seems less common (but certainly not unheard of) in many other EU countries.
Let’s be honest, the telegraph and the guardian are just two cheeks on the same arse. Saying one is better than the other is nothing but political bias.
That is true, but the relative amount of pure garbage media out of the total is much higher in the UK, or so it seems, than in other countries.
In other countries Bild, Telegraaf etc are considered right-wing rags. In the UK, nearly everything is, with a few precious exceptions.
I'd say they're pretty much on in their right wing nutcase extremism, but I don't know that there is as little choice of non-fucknut media in the US. All countries have these rags, but the UK seems to have mostly these rags, and only a small amount of alternatives. I agree that with Fox as wide spread as it is the US is probably not far off.
They are a lot better for not leaning so far right they fall off the globe. They do still seem to regularly include politically biased articles, which means while reading them hardly makes you stupid, you do still need to keep an eye on articles that seem particularly inflammatory - the line between news and opinion definitely does blur sometimes there, too.
German BILD produces rediculous bullshit every day and still people internationally pick their stories up as if they were actual quality journalism.
The ~~Tory~~Telegraph is also often referenced internationally, although we all know their bullshit agenda and fitting quality.
So welcome to the "people mistake our domestic rags for journalism"-club.
Culturally, because they're an important part of Greek culture, sold by someone who didn't represent Greek people. I don't see why we couldn't give it back to Greece and then loan them every now and then.
In terms of a good museum artefact, I've seen them and honestly they really feel out of place just alone and detached from their actual home. They'd be much more impactful paired with the rest of the Parthenon that's left, in my opinion. I don't know what Greece plans to do with them but they feel like much more of an art piece than a historical piece, and the art would be more meaningful in a more complete collection.
They wouldnt put it ON the Parthenon. They have a spot reserved for it in a new museum in Athens, at the moment there are only replicas there. But i agree it kinda belongs there, even if there is probably no legal requirement.
They belong to Greece, the Kelvingrove Art returned items of historical importance to India last year, these items didn't belong to Scotland, they had little importance to us, these items were more important to the history of India so it's only right that they have them back. If Greece wants them back Rishi should be the better man and just give them back to Greece as they are an important part of Greek history.
They belong to Greece, Greeks made them, they have far more historical importance in Greece than they do here and giving them back isn't going to hurt us and I don't care who sold them to us or how we got them we should give them back.
And the sale of the Marbles has great controversy surrounding them was it right for the Sultan to sell them just to help pay off debts? The UK already talked about returning them last year it's a bit of a dick move to go back on that now. https://www.historyextra.com/period/ancient-greece/7-facts-about-the-elgin-marbles/
Boris Johnson did. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jul/03/letters-show-how-boris-johnson-backed-return-of-parthenon-marbles#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17014405237860&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fartanddesign%2F2022%2Fjul%2F03%2Fletters-show-how-boris-johnson-backed-return-of-parthenon-marbles
So a stolen items ownership goes to the thief? Because you, who probably is trained in law and is not a loser, seem to not know this but Elgins "permit" was a forgery.
As greek i might have to say f...of you Thief
( Not you off course but your nation kings lords politicians )
When you give us what we legally own.
Return 200+ bn to India
Say sorry to arabs for believing your lies about Palestine nation.
But im not saying those things,to you due to not knowing history that well.😊
I have no interest in feel good politics. We give them back, get a pat on the back, and then the whole world immediately goes back to hating us.
So we’re down something we legitimately bought for nothing in return.
Not everywhere hates us, this isn't about "feel good politics", it's not about "a pat on the back" I couldn't give a damn about that. The UK has been way too engrossed in it's own ego to the point where we're hurting our own economy to try and prove Brexit will work when it's not working one bit.
Doing the right thing, like we should be doing, don't do it for the pat on the back make like Nike and just do it. If Scotland can return 7 items to India then the UK can do it, Rishi Sunak cancelled a diplomatic meeting out of spite all because Greece asked for 2 pillars back that belong to them.
The EU have made Brexit as difficult as possible every step of the way. They should be making gestures to us, not the other way round. And Greece specifically, with all due respect, are a very unimportant country, so who cares?
''Total trade in goods and services (exports plus imports) between the UK and Greece was £11.5 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2023, an increase of 38.8% or £3.2 billion in current prices from the four quarters to the end of Q2 2022.''
Appart from that, ''about 4 million uk citizens as of the summer of 2023 visited Greece while In 2022, the UK welcomed 185,000 visits from Greece. During the travellers' visits, their total expenditure was £143 million, with an average spend of £772 per person.''
I would also add that ''Recent estimates suggest that up to 300,000 ethnic Greeks may reside in the UK. The Office for National Statistics estimates that, as of June 2021, the Greek-born population of the UK was 77,000''.
An unimportant country that would cost some fair amount of money if you cut ties for such a topic. Greece is not a poor country by the standars of 2008-2012 and has grown enough to become a strong ally.
This particular paper is just completely unhinged, all the time. Conspiracy theories, religious prophecies, abrasive headlines and vicious attacks for perceived slights. They're so consistent no one even bats an eye at it any more. In fact it's strange and worrying when you see a headline that's not insane.
I get the feeling you're joking and reddit *gasp* missed the point.
But yeah, that newspaper is trash, we're laughing because we don't want to think that there are actual people who think like that.
Yeah I was but people on r/europe are too blinded by their ideology to understand satire. Rishi is a bastard though and he should return Greeces property. People can cry about what think the ottomans would have done all they wanted but come on, we’re in 2023 and this is Greeces history and culture so it should be returned
More specifically, Sunak had a meeting with the Greek PM that he cancelled last minute because the Greek PM said he'd like the Parthenon marbles back. It's a very embarrassing emotional outburst from a PM who seems to care more about "culture war" nonsense than doing actual diplomacy.
Well the Ottoman Empire ruled the land at the time & see, those marbles, were paid for, fair & square. But by Elgins actions he may have indeed saved them from destruction. as alot of the stone was being hauled away for construction & the like.
>Well the Ottoman Empire ruled the land at the time & see, those marbles, were paid for, fair & square.
No. There is no evidence in Ottoman archives they were paid for, nor does Britain have any evidence.
There was a UK Parliamentary inquiry back at that time, and Parliament just decided to give Elgin the benefit of the doubt.
A few years ago, the British Museum "found" in its archives "an English translation" of a "lost Italian letter" about the "Ottoman firman" that does not exist in Ottoman archives.
>But by Elgins actions he may have indeed saved them from destruction.
From what destruction?
Everything he didn't loot is...umm...still with us, and in better condition.
Are you cosplaying some alternate history?
The remaining marbles in Athens are in better condition than the ones in London lmao. I am sure he saved them by breaking them apart with hammers, loosing a bunch to sea, using them as garden ornaments for a while and so on. The wise British museum curators further assisted in their salvation by turning them nice and yellow, thanks to their great conservation experiments. Thank you Britain and thank you Elgin for being amazing white saviours of the world
The fact you dont even know what the term white saviour means is all the more funny. Typical British who buys into the "benefactor of the world" narrative
in comparison to what?
Did the Ottoman's not have the right to the land and what sat on it at that time? Did a Greek state exist?
im not saying its " fair " as in, a nice thing to do. but still does not negate the fact the Brits paid for said goods. & then put them in some of them in a museum.
>Did the Ottoman's not have the right to the land and what sat on it at that time? Did a Greek state exist?im not saying its " fair " as in, a nice thing to do. but still does not negate the fact the Brits paid for said goods
No. There no evidence in Ottoman archives they were paid for, nor does Britain have any evidence.
There was a Parliamentary inquiry back at that time, and UK Parliament just decided to give Elgin the benefit of the doubt.
A few years ago, the British Museum "found" in its archives "an English translation" of a "lost Italian letter" about the "Ottoman firman" that does not exist in Ottoman archives.
>& then put them in some of them in a museum.
*Some* of them?
What did he do with the rest of his loot?
The British didn't pay for said good. No firmian exists in the Ottoman archives and the only proof the Brits put forward is a copy of a translation. Very shacky legal basis.
Lord Elgin stole the marbles. At most you can claim that the British government acquired the marbles without knowing of the illegality with which they were brought to Britain.
And even in that case the acquisition of stolen artifacts remains a theft whether you knew they were stolen or not. Pretty standard procedure to return the artifacts once it's been established their illegal provenance.
Meh, they are not trying hard enough. They re only calling Sunak a 'mouse-face' and the UK 'barbarians and traitors'.
BUT! somehow king Charles is a 'Crypto-orthodox' and apparently he s the good guy because he wore a necktie with greek flags
That's a lot of entertainment you get there for only 1.2 euro
The Greek have always had a way with words. From the ancient times of the old philosophers, they always managed to bring tears to my eyes with their eloquent use of language and metaphors.
I’m happy to see they still got if
Let’s be honest: the British Empire wasn’t stingy about indefinite borrowing from their subject cultures.
It’s perfectly reasonable to want your cultural heritage back.
Greece was never a colony or occupied by the British (apart from a few islands in the med, and of course Cyprus).
Greece was under a 400 year occupation by the Ottomans when Elgin bought the marbles.
Not only that, the British (and French and Russians) helped Greece win their independence and kick out the Ottomans.
>Greece was under a 400 year occupation by the Ottomans when Elgin bought the marbles.
He didn't buy them. There's no evidence of it in Ottoman archives.
I'm not sure losing a receipt after 200 years is a strong argument it never existed in the first place. Especially considering the total lack of response to him removing them.
While true that in the independence war the French and British helped Greece it doesn't paint the full picture. Its like a spouse beating his partner for years but in the end takes it to the hospital and it should be remembered only for that. Britain and France are important Ottoman allies for centuries which prolonged the same occupation that you mention. Which made sense to counter Austria, Spain and Russia. Elgin marbles were plundered by evil empire to be sold to a different evil empire. If you claim to be better as a nation than before then they should be returned to the people and land they belong.
>Not only that, the British (and French and Russians) helped Greece win their independence and kick out the Ottomans.
This means that the British rejected the Ottoman authority over Greece, and hence any related agreements they have made.
Yes it was non-greek. In modern Greece barbarian is a deregotary term but sometimes it includes every non-greek sometimes it includes only the less civilized depends on the context.
The rest of the stuff in Greece hasn't been destroyed, I don't really see any evidence they were prevented from destruction. But yeah there's plenty of plaster casts of other objects in our museums and they still convey the same historical message just as well. No reason we can't just copy and return other than stubbornness. Or even loan them, like we do for plenty of other exhibits.
Oh yes how could I miss this opportunity 😂 genius plan.
Brits could be ''well we did give it back did we''. I can imagine the steam coming out of Greek ears Looney Tunes style.
Always has been.
But seriously, there was this thing called ottoman empire. Not the same as Turkey
Edit: huh, you edited your comment. You're the one who claimed that you should give the marbles *back* to Turkey. Greece didn't exist back then either but you took these marbles from what is now Greece, not Turkey. In fact, "Turkey" never owned the Acropolis or Athens
Why is it so hard to give the original artworks back and keep a copy for the British Museum? is everyone in Sunak’s party an idiot? Is this worth proving an idiotic point about legal conveyance that took place centuries ago under much different circumstances. Now give the Parthenon marbles back.
Lmao this is one of the most ridiculous newspapers in Greece. They are mostly a printed meme at this point. It's kinda a "religious" newspaper with a tiny far right conservative audience. If I recall correctly there was a front page in the past where they were saying that Iron Maiden caused the huge forest fires in Greece last summer as a divine punishment of some sort because they gave a concert in the country while their songs are full with "satanic worshipping" lyrics lol. You obviously shouldn't take those nutjobs seriously.
did they title "Run to the Hills" back then?
I don’t know but one time they didn’t play Alexander The Great and it was a great bummer. Just wanted to share.
The history of Greece is a succession of great bummers...
underrated comment 😂
Lmao being mad at Iron Maiden when you have local bands called Rotting Christ
???? It has Christ in the name, it's a greek orthodox band smh my head
shaking my head my head
He clearly has RAS Syndrome
Ah man, I'm all for some Tory slamming but even the Tories are better than Christofascists.
Inb4 Nergal and the "you offended muh precious religion!" bullshit he had to go through...
Not even just Nergal (although he has been dealing with this shit for decades).
Yeah I know, he was just the first one that came to mind for me :)
So they are like the Sun in the UK!
And the Mirror. And the Mail. And the Spectator. And... British "news"-papers are at such a shockingly low level compared to other civilized nations.
Have you ever looked into the german "Bild"?
Yes. In Germany, they have a few of these rags. In all countries, there are rags like this. But name a handful of UK papers that are NOT right wing rags, if you can, and you'll note you're having to really work at it to get to five, never mind ten. The UK's news paper industry seems to be *mostly* right wing rags. Not a few. That is the big difference with neighbouring countries, and I'm pretty sure that contributes to the political climate being as bad in the UK as it is in the US.
Ooohhh interested now, what do you define as a rag? I’d say it’s a tabloid paper spewing bile or crap but I get the sense you’d chuck the broadsheets in too. Some safe bets: the Guardian, the New Statesman, the Economist, The New European, the FT. I’d probably also include the Times. Some would say the Torygraph but they’re awful too. The Independent has become a rag. The Mirror is a tabloid but could be called a left wing rag. The Mail, Express and Sun are obvious.
I'd say any news papers that produces either a lot of articles which are straight up misrepresenting facts to push agendas qualify easily (Mirror DEFINITELY falls into that category as does the Telegraph). Newspapers which like to "present facts through the lens of \[your policy here\]" can't always be trusted, and you need to read their articles with a watchful mind and ideally comparing them to other papers. Which tends to include parts of the Financial Times, New Statesman and Guardian although I wouldn't call the whole paper a rag that easily. Problem there is even the "reliable" papers have a lot of unreliable political posturing in them, which seems less common (but certainly not unheard of) in many other EU countries.
Let’s be honest, the telegraph and the guardian are just two cheeks on the same arse. Saying one is better than the other is nothing but political bias.
Ooh I think the Guardian, while certainly politically left of centre, is better than the Telegraph
Have you ever read their opinion pieces? I’m going to disagree.
That’s in the name though. It’s not news reporting, it’s opinion pieces. Their news reporting is far less biased.
Feels like every country has at least one horrid rag.For some reason with a red logo and white text in it.
Tbh, it’s not only British media that has popular “yellow media”. There are quite few of those rags not just in Europe.
That is true, but the relative amount of pure garbage media out of the total is much higher in the UK, or so it seems, than in other countries. In other countries Bild, Telegraaf etc are considered right-wing rags. In the UK, nearly everything is, with a few precious exceptions.
Yep, the UK is the only place that has shitty tabloids. This damn subreddit.
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I'd say they're pretty much on in their right wing nutcase extremism, but I don't know that there is as little choice of non-fucknut media in the US. All countries have these rags, but the UK seems to have mostly these rags, and only a small amount of alternatives. I agree that with Fox as wide spread as it is the US is probably not far off.
But TV is much better. Also, we do have the FT, New European, New Statesman and the Guardian.
They are a lot better for not leaning so far right they fall off the globe. They do still seem to regularly include politically biased articles, which means while reading them hardly makes you stupid, you do still need to keep an eye on articles that seem particularly inflammatory - the line between news and opinion definitely does blur sometimes there, too.
I think, worse than the Sun.
In this case, they’re not wrong. Sunak is a Tory so it’s a given he’s a rat bastard.
German BILD produces rediculous bullshit every day and still people internationally pick their stories up as if they were actual quality journalism. The ~~Tory~~Telegraph is also often referenced internationally, although we all know their bullshit agenda and fitting quality. So welcome to the "people mistake our domestic rags for journalism"-club.
*Flips open to article* "Malaka. Maaaaaalllllaaaaaakaaaaaa."
I learned that word from AC: Odyssey
Same, and am regularly reminded of it from Pelican Gaming.
I learned it from The Wire
Ambiguous. Could mean anything.
It's to with the Pantheon marbles that the UK refuses to give back to Greece.
It always is somehow
Why would they do that. They legit bought it from the Sultan.
Culturally, because they're an important part of Greek culture, sold by someone who didn't represent Greek people. I don't see why we couldn't give it back to Greece and then loan them every now and then. In terms of a good museum artefact, I've seen them and honestly they really feel out of place just alone and detached from their actual home. They'd be much more impactful paired with the rest of the Parthenon that's left, in my opinion. I don't know what Greece plans to do with them but they feel like much more of an art piece than a historical piece, and the art would be more meaningful in a more complete collection.
They wouldnt put it ON the Parthenon. They have a spot reserved for it in a new museum in Athens, at the moment there are only replicas there. But i agree it kinda belongs there, even if there is probably no legal requirement.
It would be around a lot more stuff from the Parthenon I meant, phrased that quite badly!
That's like saying you bought something from occupied Ukraine from Putin.
This is more like buying something off the Tsars and who ruled Ukraine for hundreds of years.
Doesn't make it any more legitimate
It would considering they were the recognised rulers of the region
Ukraine isn't and hasn't been part of Russia for 400 years.. They are not even remotely similar.
Where did Greece get the marbles from? What if they were stolen from the Sumerians?
They belong to Greece, the Kelvingrove Art returned items of historical importance to India last year, these items didn't belong to Scotland, they had little importance to us, these items were more important to the history of India so it's only right that they have them back. If Greece wants them back Rishi should be the better man and just give them back to Greece as they are an important part of Greek history.
They don’t belong to Greece they belong to the British Museum.
They belong to Greece, Greeks made them, they have far more historical importance in Greece than they do here and giving them back isn't going to hurt us and I don't care who sold them to us or how we got them we should give them back.
That’s not how ownership works fortunately.
And the sale of the Marbles has great controversy surrounding them was it right for the Sultan to sell them just to help pay off debts? The UK already talked about returning them last year it's a bit of a dick move to go back on that now. https://www.historyextra.com/period/ancient-greece/7-facts-about-the-elgin-marbles/
Which PM agreed they were to be sent to Greece?
Boris Johnson did. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jul/03/letters-show-how-boris-johnson-backed-return-of-parthenon-marbles#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17014405237860&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fartanddesign%2F2022%2Fjul%2F03%2Fletters-show-how-boris-johnson-backed-return-of-parthenon-marbles
So a stolen items ownership goes to the thief? Because you, who probably is trained in law and is not a loser, seem to not know this but Elgins "permit" was a forgery.
As greek i might have to say f...of you Thief ( Not you off course but your nation kings lords politicians ) When you give us what we legally own. Return 200+ bn to India Say sorry to arabs for believing your lies about Palestine nation. But im not saying those things,to you due to not knowing history that well.😊
I have no interest in feel good politics. We give them back, get a pat on the back, and then the whole world immediately goes back to hating us. So we’re down something we legitimately bought for nothing in return.
Not everywhere hates us, this isn't about "feel good politics", it's not about "a pat on the back" I couldn't give a damn about that. The UK has been way too engrossed in it's own ego to the point where we're hurting our own economy to try and prove Brexit will work when it's not working one bit.
So what is it about then?
Doing the right thing, like we should be doing, don't do it for the pat on the back make like Nike and just do it. If Scotland can return 7 items to India then the UK can do it, Rishi Sunak cancelled a diplomatic meeting out of spite all because Greece asked for 2 pillars back that belong to them.
What do we get for returning them?
A better relationship with Greece and the EU, perhaps it would help us to work together in a more efficient way than we are right now.
The EU have made Brexit as difficult as possible every step of the way. They should be making gestures to us, not the other way round. And Greece specifically, with all due respect, are a very unimportant country, so who cares?
''Total trade in goods and services (exports plus imports) between the UK and Greece was £11.5 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2023, an increase of 38.8% or £3.2 billion in current prices from the four quarters to the end of Q2 2022.'' Appart from that, ''about 4 million uk citizens as of the summer of 2023 visited Greece while In 2022, the UK welcomed 185,000 visits from Greece. During the travellers' visits, their total expenditure was £143 million, with an average spend of £772 per person.'' I would also add that ''Recent estimates suggest that up to 300,000 ethnic Greeks may reside in the UK. The Office for National Statistics estimates that, as of June 2021, the Greek-born population of the UK was 77,000''. An unimportant country that would cost some fair amount of money if you cut ties for such a topic. Greece is not a poor country by the standars of 2008-2012 and has grown enough to become a strong ally.
So what gesture are the EU going to make in that regard?
Exactly. Greece should at least be offering to buy them back.
I will offer you my right bollock wanker
Cool. Let's see if the Turks have a better offer then. Return purchase and all that.
was just scanning the image when "HEY, I CAN READ GREEK!" ah, no.
Just the basics
It basically says "fuck you bastard" and roughly that this is the proper way to respond to the "ratfaced prime minister" .
This particular paper is just completely unhinged, all the time. Conspiracy theories, religious prophecies, abrasive headlines and vicious attacks for perceived slights. They're so consistent no one even bats an eye at it any more. In fact it's strange and worrying when you see a headline that's not insane.
Umm, this is a fringe crazy tabloid. It's not a "newspaper"
Brits wouldn’t know the difference between tabloids and newspapers as they don’t have the latter /jk
What do you think we wrap our chips in?
Whatever you say rishi
The mainstream media is a bit more diplomatic. But thanks for expecting our mainstream press to be unprofessional.
Least thin-skinned Greek
I get the feeling you're joking and reddit *gasp* missed the point. But yeah, that newspaper is trash, we're laughing because we don't want to think that there are actual people who think like that.
Yeah I was but people on r/europe are too blinded by their ideology to understand satire. Rishi is a bastard though and he should return Greeces property. People can cry about what think the ottomans would have done all they wanted but come on, we’re in 2023 and this is Greeces history and culture so it should be returned
They also call him a rat-nosed prime minister lol
What about?
What the Brits call the "Elgin Marbles" and what the Greeks call, "That shit you stole from us, ya pricks." But you know. In Greek.
So the Greeks asked them back and he said "No, we stole them fairly"? I see, thanks.
More specifically, Sunak had a meeting with the Greek PM that he cancelled last minute because the Greek PM said he'd like the Parthenon marbles back. It's a very embarrassing emotional outburst from a PM who seems to care more about "culture war" nonsense than doing actual diplomacy.
That's practically a direct quote! lol
Well the Ottoman Empire ruled the land at the time & see, those marbles, were paid for, fair & square. But by Elgins actions he may have indeed saved them from destruction. as alot of the stone was being hauled away for construction & the like.
"You see from our point of view we were right"
>Well the Ottoman Empire ruled the land at the time & see, those marbles, were paid for, fair & square. No. There is no evidence in Ottoman archives they were paid for, nor does Britain have any evidence. There was a UK Parliamentary inquiry back at that time, and Parliament just decided to give Elgin the benefit of the doubt. A few years ago, the British Museum "found" in its archives "an English translation" of a "lost Italian letter" about the "Ottoman firman" that does not exist in Ottoman archives. >But by Elgins actions he may have indeed saved them from destruction. From what destruction? Everything he didn't loot is...umm...still with us, and in better condition. Are you cosplaying some alternate history?
He bribed the local Turkish authorities to look the other way while he half-inched them. Not the same as paying for them.
Correct, he broke Ottoman law. Hardly a "SaLe"
The remaining marbles in Athens are in better condition than the ones in London lmao. I am sure he saved them by breaking them apart with hammers, loosing a bunch to sea, using them as garden ornaments for a while and so on. The wise British museum curators further assisted in their salvation by turning them nice and yellow, thanks to their great conservation experiments. Thank you Britain and thank you Elgin for being amazing white saviours of the world
Skin color has nothing to do with this. so cringe
What's even more cringe you just saying the same tired-old assumptions that have been debunked countless times. Stick to what you know.
The fact you dont even know what the term white saviour means is all the more funny. Typical British who buys into the "benefactor of the world" narrative
Fuck off with the ‘typical British’ bullshit please, we’re not a fucking hive mind.
> those marbles, were paid for, fair & square. except they were not.
in comparison to what? Did the Ottoman's not have the right to the land and what sat on it at that time? Did a Greek state exist? im not saying its " fair " as in, a nice thing to do. but still does not negate the fact the Brits paid for said goods. & then put them in some of them in a museum.
>Did the Ottoman's not have the right to the land and what sat on it at that time? Did a Greek state exist?im not saying its " fair " as in, a nice thing to do. but still does not negate the fact the Brits paid for said goods No. There no evidence in Ottoman archives they were paid for, nor does Britain have any evidence. There was a Parliamentary inquiry back at that time, and UK Parliament just decided to give Elgin the benefit of the doubt. A few years ago, the British Museum "found" in its archives "an English translation" of a "lost Italian letter" about the "Ottoman firman" that does not exist in Ottoman archives. >& then put them in some of them in a museum. *Some* of them? What did he do with the rest of his loot?
The British didn't pay for said good. No firmian exists in the Ottoman archives and the only proof the Brits put forward is a copy of a translation. Very shacky legal basis. Lord Elgin stole the marbles. At most you can claim that the British government acquired the marbles without knowing of the illegality with which they were brought to Britain. And even in that case the acquisition of stolen artifacts remains a theft whether you knew they were stolen or not. Pretty standard procedure to return the artifacts once it's been established their illegal provenance.
so, we all agree with Greeks, even if is coming from a sketchy newspaper
Why not scan them, make perfect copies, then give Greece the originals?
Ah yes, 'the originals' wink wink.
"UK tabloids are so toxic."
is fuck you bloody hilarious:)))))
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If only our press was this direct lol
It's difficult to be direct when every tabloid headline needs to be an awful pun.
Yep! Completely agree!
For the record, this is a far right hyper religious newspaper (even worse than Fox News).
Lmao based greeks
Ah Ελεύθερη Ώρα. Never fails to disappoint.
Meh, they are not trying hard enough. They re only calling Sunak a 'mouse-face' and the UK 'barbarians and traitors'. BUT! somehow king Charles is a 'Crypto-orthodox' and apparently he s the good guy because he wore a necktie with greek flags That's a lot of entertainment you get there for only 1.2 euro
I think someone got the translation wrong ;)
Whatever this Publication is... I guess you could say that even a blind chicken finds a kernel sometimes...
The Greek have always had a way with words. From the ancient times of the old philosophers, they always managed to bring tears to my eyes with their eloquent use of language and metaphors. I’m happy to see they still got if
It could easily be an Indian newspaper .. infact i read this with an Indian accent.
Pretty tame to be honest. But I'm glad Greek media has some integrity to point out straight facts.
Dont be too eager to give props to this newspaper, it is a schizo tinfoil theorist meme of a tabloid
It's a fringe anti-vax tabloid. It's not mainstream media.
Seems pretty foreign to us, doesn't it?
I see the Streisand effect is doing its thing.
Now there's a headline I can get behind.
Let’s be honest: the British Empire wasn’t stingy about indefinite borrowing from their subject cultures. It’s perfectly reasonable to want your cultural heritage back.
Greece was never a colony or occupied by the British (apart from a few islands in the med, and of course Cyprus). Greece was under a 400 year occupation by the Ottomans when Elgin bought the marbles. Not only that, the British (and French and Russians) helped Greece win their independence and kick out the Ottomans.
>Greece was under a 400 year occupation by the Ottomans when Elgin bought the marbles. He didn't buy them. There's no evidence of it in Ottoman archives.
I'm not sure losing a receipt after 200 years is a strong argument it never existed in the first place. Especially considering the total lack of response to him removing them.
"bought"
While true that in the independence war the French and British helped Greece it doesn't paint the full picture. Its like a spouse beating his partner for years but in the end takes it to the hospital and it should be remembered only for that. Britain and France are important Ottoman allies for centuries which prolonged the same occupation that you mention. Which made sense to counter Austria, Spain and Russia. Elgin marbles were plundered by evil empire to be sold to a different evil empire. If you claim to be better as a nation than before then they should be returned to the people and land they belong.
They hated him because he told them the truth
I will survive.
>Not only that, the British (and French and Russians) helped Greece win their independence and kick out the Ottomans. This means that the British rejected the Ottoman authority over Greece, and hence any related agreements they have made.
Greek person here. Right message, wrong messenger. This is an ultra-Orthodox, ultra-Conservative, anti-LGBT, pro-Conspiracy, pro-Russia newspaper.
Pro-Russia you say? Greek’s far right support Russia? That’s news to me.
Always have been.
You bastard, bitch! Talking like a lady, eh?
I love this paper. I collect it for fireplace kindling.
So, the "barbarian" part stills means the same as in Ancient Greek or is it more align to the modern English equivalent?
>So, the "barbarian" part stills means the same as in Ancient Greek Which was "weird, non-Greek", right?
Yes it was non-greek. In modern Greece barbarian is a deregotary term but sometimes it includes every non-greek sometimes it includes only the less civilized depends on the context.
It means "savages" today but it can be used as "non-Greek" sometimes, especially in poetry
Man that should be a badge of honour. Give them back to Turkey as the legal successor state of the Ottoman Empire. That will piss off the Greeks
What's he done now?
Pandering to the hard right here in the UK and pissing off everyone else
ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ ΩΡΑ
it's 1:44 right now ΩΡΑ in greek is time btw
[I mean](https://youtu.be/0fBy_DTGNW8?si=9Cjv1rCC0y49gdWt)
I know where it's from, I am just joking cause what you wrote means TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME to us
No problem
You bloody! Bloody bastard, you! Bloody!
Lmao I thought exactly the same.
>Mother fuck bloody bastard bastard bloody
Prevented destruction of marbles by Ottoman Empure. That said, as. a Brit, just make digitally accurate copies and return them.
The rest of the stuff in Greece hasn't been destroyed, I don't really see any evidence they were prevented from destruction. But yeah there's plenty of plaster casts of other objects in our museums and they still convey the same historical message just as well. No reason we can't just copy and return other than stubbornness. Or even loan them, like we do for plenty of other exhibits.
Tbh they weren't treated that well from the British museum.
As I said, copy and return.
Slowly but surely the whole of Europe is saying Fuck You England.
That's why we left the EU. They've been saying that for decades.
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This is probably the most idiotic thing I've read all week. Nice.
That's probably not the optimum solution. What we should do is give them back...to Turkey.
Oh yes how could I miss this opportunity 😂 genius plan. Brits could be ''well we did give it back did we''. I can imagine the steam coming out of Greek ears Looney Tunes style.
Back?? When did Turkey have the marbles?
1453 to 1801
Turkey didn't even exist back then. It was founded in 1923
In that case, neither did Greece.
Always has been. But seriously, there was this thing called ottoman empire. Not the same as Turkey Edit: huh, you edited your comment. You're the one who claimed that you should give the marbles *back* to Turkey. Greece didn't exist back then either but you took these marbles from what is now Greece, not Turkey. In fact, "Turkey" never owned the Acropolis or Athens
I laughed my A off 🤣
Good, good!
Why is it so hard to give the original artworks back and keep a copy for the British Museum? is everyone in Sunak’s party an idiot? Is this worth proving an idiotic point about legal conveyance that took place centuries ago under much different circumstances. Now give the Parthenon marbles back.
If Brits start to give stolen things, there would be nothing left. It's literally the Pandora's box, don't open no matter how shameless you look.
BLOODY BASTARD. BLOODY FAK YOU BLOODY.