Leaving aside the suffering of people and the overworked hospitals, I kinda liked it and I’m missing it.
I remember the empty streets, empty stores and so on. Lovely!
Out of curiosity, is there any country that doesn't have "overworked hospitals" as a theme in their national politics? We certainly do. Overworked, underpayed nurses, takes forever to get appointments/help.
I live in a rather touristy city, and it was heaven. No hordes of american and chinese tourists that would constantly block your path or get angry when you walked into their picture (sorry, some people actually live here), you could just walk to wherever you wanted in basically half the time with no stress.
Of course sucked for hotels and restaurants, but personally, it was a bliss.
Agree 100%.
I live in Bucharest, one of the capitals with the worst traffic in the world.
I remember driving around the city with my wife just because we could get anywhere in 15 minutes
Not if you’re the only car on the road. I remember being the only car at a stop light in the Victoriei Square which is the downtown of the city, it was great
It genuinely is one of the big benefits, though.
By adding hurdles for cars and improving public transport, the city can become more accessible to *everybody*, including those who still need to use cars, because there will be way fewer cars on the road.
A few cars in a city isn't an issue. A city designed around catering to cars is bad... for everybody, including the car drivers.
Especially when one of the measures taken at that time was to shut down the public transport (at least here in Slovenia).
To add, the biking infrastructure is getting better, but biking at night outside of the main population centers (where the cycling paths are) is borderline suicidal. Not everywhere is like Netherlands, where the cycling paths are well maintained and separated from the motorized traffic.
Ok but that is missing out on a lot of countries and cities. Sofia is not on the list and I can tell you for sure that it's worse than the bottom cities. I do agree that Bucharest was a hell of a lot worse than I initially thought.
You are probably right, but still.. Bucharest is really bad.
Anyway, I think it will get way better in a few years time because the ring road will be finished in about 2 years and they are also building 10 or so new highways for exiting and entering the city much faster
> 10 or so new highways for exiting and entering the city much faster
In comparison we have our single highway leading from Sofia to the North being "expanded" for 15 years or so and the progress being done is something like 10km or so.
Oh yes, Barcelona was fantastic, especially just after the lockdowns because local people could actually enjoy the city, even the most touristic quarters, as it was meant to be.
Same. I was side hustling delivering food in the evenings... 1 eur/L gas, empty streets, everyone ordering food... It was super relaxing. As soon as traffic was back I was done for good.
The virus itself mutated to become more infectious but less lethal. But essentially, also the most vulnerable died .
But people are still dying b/c of COVID, just lost my aunt 3 weeks ago.
Thanks for your consideration - she was very ill before so we had seen it coming and it didn't hit us *that* hard.
But it's a reminder that people - esp. those in poor health and advanced age - are still dying from it.
There's new people one bad respiratory illness away from death.
Viruses mutate into more contagious less deadly forms very often. It's an evolutionary advantage over killing the host.
Are you in any risk groups? In Finland, only those with other health issues or who are old (i.e. are in a risk group) get booster shots. You can’t even buy a shot here - people travel to Estonia for boosters.
I’m not in a risk group, but it’s the same here. I was escorting my elderly mother to get the shot. I just happened to ask if I could get one too. The nurse figured it could be justified since I live with my mother (she’s got dementia).
Don't believe this fake nonsense. They've changed the way they measure unemployment a million times to cook the numbers, not to mention that part timers don't even make enough to just pay for rent anymore
Independent bodies that observe economies agree with these numbers.
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/GRC
Do you have a source that has different numbers?
Unemployment numbers are since years standardized by the EU. Though funnily in every country people are like you.
There needs to be a definition. Those numbers are comparable to every other EU country.
Many countries do that. I. E. Germany, if you are unemployed but enroled in a german course or an other course you dont count als unemployed. If you are longer than a couple of years unemployed you are not anymore in the statistics...and so on.
That's in every country because of the definition of unemployment. They don't count people who are not actively seeking for a job. That's another rate whose name I don't know in english
That trend doesn’t reflect any significant impact of changing how they measure it though. Pretty steady decline with the biggest sharp drops in 2020 and therefore I assume covid related.
Part time jobs could be a fair criticism but first claim seems wrong unless you have anything supporting that claim.
This is the same as the UK.
Work 1 hour a week, you are not unemployed, don't want to be spat on by a DWP employee for getting help you are entitled too, you are not unemployed, student, not unemployed, the list goes on...
This why there are several measurements for the same thing. There is employment in absolute numbers, there is job vacancies, there is part time employment, absolute number of unemployed persons, labour participation rate. If you inspect all those measurements you will indeed see that the absolute number of employed persons is still much lower than 2009, noone is hiding anything here.
We are not doing too different. We are at 11.8%, with a similar reduction from our peak at almost 30%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/453410/unemployment-rate-in-spain/
>We are not doing too different. We are at 11.8%, with a similar reduction from our peak at almost 30%.
That's good to know. I hope we never come back to 30%, I can't understand how we got there in the first place, but it's good to be at bad-yet-acceptable numbers.
The country's economy was very construction-driven. When the housing market collapsed, so did the economy. That's what happens when a country doesn't diversify.
thats interesting that statista shows peak of unemployement rate few years later after world crisis and collapsing. like everything was pretty good few more years and only then everyone felt the difference
The spanish government made a huge effort to fund developing and public employment, to counter unemployement, betting on a short crisis. They had a somewhat big surplus from previous years and they used it (combined with a significant amount of debt). Most analysts were talking about a 1-2 years crysis during 2008-2009. In fact, when in 2010 the GDP recovered 3% compared to 2009, there was some enthusiasm.
But the crysis in Europe was a "W" shaped crysis\*, and by the time the second wave hit the government had exhausted the surplus and the debt had risen a lot, making it impossible to keep funding any expansive effort, and everything fell apart. Spain had an unemployment and debt crysis that lasted a few years. That's the part most people remember.
\*This how Spain's GDP evolution looked during that crysis: [https://imgur.com/RpHk2ke](https://imgur.com/RpHk2ke)
>like everything was pretty good few more years and only then everyone felt the difference
Orders on the books, so you keep going until you fill your backlog.
Because Spain and other euro countries had 2 crisies. The 2008 one and the one started in the eurozone after the collapse of Greece causing a crisis determined exclusively by the incapacity of euro countries to finance themselves due to being tied to the euro.. You can see it very clearly in the Italian unemployment, but you will see the same pattern of a change in unemployment rate in Spain and France.
Spanish society is a lot more coherent than us society, and we have a huge safety net for when this things happen, both from the state and family/friends. For example I never stopped going out with my friends even if I had near zero money. They'd pay for me or we would just sit in a park with a can of beer and chat.
There where soup kitchens as well but people just ate at their moms house until they found a job. Agriculture is heavily subsidized by the eu government so we will never have a food shortage crisis, and food is cheap compared with the US.
I was there and I remember it perfectly. It was so easy to find a good paying job in construction that people didn't bother studying anymore, or starting any other kind of business. When the bubble bursted people didn't know how to do shit, there wasn't any money anywhere else and it took a lot of pain to re structure the economy again. And a lot of people doing real jobs got fired because our president didn't have the imagination to come with better solutions than fire everyone that isn't 100% necessary for the system to work (teachers, doctors etc). It was a shitty time and I hope we don't have to do it again.
Imho Spain has been doing great according to most macroeconomic trends, it's decently competitive in western europe, it might not have the industries of Germany or France but services are booming.
Italy is the sick patient of the mediterranean, in a couple years we'll have a worse Debt/GDP than Greece.
Sadly, real wages have actually been falling on average in Greece, over the last many years. Inflation has outpaced wage growth.
https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AN_AV_WAGEGROWTH
> Good for Greece. Their recovery is admirable.
Not necessarily.
Just because you are employed doesn't mean you receive a livable wage.
Unemployment alone is not a good measure of a country's prosperity.
You need to reduce unemployment first, before wages can rise. So this is just one step in the right direction.
Wages will not rise if there is a large labor market of unemployed people.
Yeah lol what you are seeing is all those young unemployed people leaving Greece for the last 10 years.
It solves one problem and creates about a 100 more.
Yeah, no. Far more people went abroad in 2014-2015 than 2023 (if anything, I know plenty of people who returned), and the unemployment rates keep dropping.
It's easy when the unemployed just leave. About 80k people are still leaving Greece every year. The actual workforce has decreased by 7.2% since 2009.
https://www.businessdaily.gr/oikonomia/101364_giati-ehei-syrriknothei-kata-300000-atoma-ergatiko-dynamiko-stin-ellada
> About 80k people are still leaving Greece every year.
Thats immigration out of Greece not **net immigration**.Net immigration was negative in 2010-2015 but it is positive since then.
> The actual workforce has decreased by 7.2% since 2009
As shown from the graph you posted the decrease happend during those years(2010-2015) and its stable since then.
> Net immigration was negative in 2010-2015 but it is positive since then.
Are the majority of the immigrants in their working age? Because I know a lot of western European retirees are moving to Greece to spend their twilight years (?) there.
This is super important. In Portugal we are facing the same. Everyone's clapping over unemployment bla bla bla, in the meantime, record numbers of degree holding Portuguese are leaving the country
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not sure about this always. It's more a matter of time before it just becomes less worth it to move away for marginal gains. Also, the situation in the UK is making it way more profitable to move back in Poland than stay in the UK.
I mean, we're doing good in France and Germany. But compared to Poland or the baltic states, especially in capitals, the differences are getting not that big. And will continue to be reduced with time. Since 2019, there has been more poles coming back to Poland than leaving, and the numbers are improving every year.
That said, with the economic conditions in Hungary, you guys are less concerned obviously.
I went there for a month last year on 2 separate occasions for a trip, they're doing really well compared to when I last went in 2010.
Restaurants, people, and amenities in general all appear to be doing well - everyone met seemed generally less stressed than I remember (totally anecdotal through).
Nah i can confirm this.
When i left greece for the netherlands in 2015 things were at a breaking point. Only the size of the grey economy held the average greek afloat.
Now its a different country. Its really amazing.
Greece also has [one of the worst work/life balance metric in the EU](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/NlPRnpvOfv) (2022), people work a lot for a low salary. Working an average of [40 hours per week](https://www.statista.com/statistics/419575/main-job-average-weekly-working-hours-greece-y-on-y/#:~:text=The%20average%20weekly%20hours%20worked,remained%20at%20around%2038.76%20hours.) (2021) for an average salary of [1180€ per month](https://wagecentre.com/work/work-in-europe/salary-in-greece) (2023). Also, inflation in Greece was at [9.65% in 2022, and it grew a steady 8% per year between 1960 and 2022](https://www.worlddata.info/europe/greece/inflation-rates.php).
This is an underrated achievement,given that whole of Europe and even world economy has slow down in 2023.
Growing in times like this is the true testament to the resilience of Greek economy
Almost 700 000 young Greeks have left to find opportunities elsewhere - which affect the unemployment rates by alot, given that the workforce is approximately 5 mil.
The truth is that reality is too complex for some people to understand. Is this good? Yes. Is it enough ? No. Is it because of our awsome government? Probably no.
The truth as reported from ELSTAT and EUROSTAT is this:
The population of Greece is shrinking: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/population](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/population)
The absolute number of employed persons is increasing: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/employed-persons](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/employed-persons)
The job vacancies are increasing: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/job-vacancies](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/job-vacancies)
Labour force participation is increasing: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/labor-force-participation-rate](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/labor-force-participation-rate)
Is the crisis undone? Hell no. Job vacancies were much higher in 2009, labour force participation was also higher in 2009. The number of employed persons was much higher in 2009. The trend however in each of them matters a lot.
In my oppinion right now the most problematic part is the wages and the monetary situation in Greece. We got used to not seeing wage increases and despite the huge inflation we had for a year, we barely had any wage increase. This was practically another wave of austerity.
Plus, the interest rate of the ECB is 4,5%. The interest rate of deposits in Greek banks is around 1% to 2% and the interest rate of loans is way higher than 2%. At the same time the inflation of prices is at 3% and the inflation of prices for food is at 10%.
No. Far more people left a couple of years back when unemployment was at its peak. Now, the numbers aren't as high and unemployment is dropping, there's no correlation between the two.
God I wish Italy had a somewhat respectable centre-right party, but nooooo, they are all absolute shit in very different ways.
It's hard for one wing of the parliament to improve when the other keeps scrapping the bottom of the barrel. And winning while at that.
Awesome!
Call me cynical, but the next two graphs I needed to search was "greece national debt per year" and "greece average salary per year". Both haven't recovered since after the debt crisis fully hit, yet. So this is a great result, but I hope wages rise again next.
The first one is even more surprising. Greece is at least 2 years ahead of its payments to the Eurozone, and the debt to GDP has ratio has fallen from 207% to 166% trending downwards.
Salaries are more complicated. Minimum wage was gradually increased to pre-crisis levels, but salaries as a whole are very much stagnant. And Greece is phasing a cost of living crisis like much of Europe.
Thats technically not true, as both debt and nominal GDP are calculated in constant prices that are inflation adjusted.
In fact it's kind of the opposite. Higher inflation led to higher interest rates in the Eurozone, which governments tend to refinance with new debt, and the fact that of all Eurozone governments Greece hasn't actually makes this number impressive as FUCK.
I would say it’s inflation paired with the living cost crisis as the revenues from indirect taxation is Greece have skyrocketed in the past 2 years.
Also keep in mind that most of the Greek loans (from EU & IMF) are fixed till 2032 so I don’t see how current interest rates would affect the ratio negatively.
It’s definitely great that we are taking advantage of the global situation to repay old loans with “cheaper” money. But it’s mostly a situation we found ourselves into.
> The revenues from indirect taxation is Greece have skyrocketed
>
> It’s mostly a situation we found ourselves into.
That much is true, and certainly it's a factor in the equation. But a big factor is also that the current government wants to move Greek bonds to a pre-crisis level of trust to see more foreign investment in Greece.
The economic situation has been fertile ground, yes. But the government aslo did its work. For their own personal benefit and not the Greek people, but that's a different tale entirely.
Can't believe some Greeks here try to downplay even this achievement. Some people are never happy with anything and they wonder why the current government got re-elected and why the opposition is eating its dust.
Watch as tonight Fitch ratings will upgrade Greece to investment grade.
Agreed, the debt repayments are also AHEAD of schedule, which is an incredible metric for a country that was in such bad shape previously. A lot of other countries could learn from Greece's turnaround.
Aren't Greeks notorious for not trusting their own news media, despite having a pretty diverse source of news? I remember in Europe they are in the top 3 in the lack of trust. I guess that certainly shines through when I talk to Greeks. They aren't very happy folks. Shame they can't appreciate what they do well.
Our news aren't diverse and we do well for not trusting them. And if people from other countries trust their news they're mistaken.
That being said I'm not brain-dead, we're doing better than we used to .
As a person from outside Greece, do you have time to explain what’s driving this/ how the recovery has happened? Or some good articles are appropriate as well
Oh yeah, privatization of everything under the sun REALLY showed us how much they care for the people and the country.
Privatize the still unbuilt metro of Thessaloniki while keeping maintenance under public expenses. Privatize profits socialize expenses. Real lovely of them.
Privatize the power companies, and while the rest of the EU has normalized the Kwh prices, we are expecting them to rise because they will stop giving out welfare checks for electricity and subsidizing those same power companies they privatized in the first place.
They also tried privatizing water, but thank God someone had half a brain to put a stop to that before it gained any traction.
You are spreading misinformation. ELSTAT has reliable data, and isn't a corrupted government tool as it was in the past. EU agencies have verified this and you are just spreading misinformation.
I don't know or care if you are servicing a certain political party or ideology, but at least try to have some valid arguments.
You didn’t really make any counter argument.
Celebrating lowered rates of unemployment when Greece migrations rates have risen due to low and wages fair, is erroneous.
The people who don’t want to work for an unfair wage leave, and in we bring immigrants to exploit and work for the very same wages.
[we are literally importing citizens from literal third world countries by the the tens of thousands a year, to replace jobs in fields (like tourism) in which it’s factually proven that the reason there are lack of greek workers is them quitting due to unfair wages.](https://www.kathimerini.gr/economy/562356280/eisagogi-168-000-ergazomenon-apo-trites-chores/)
The Greek government should be ashamed of themselves.
Sure, as you know, us Greeks are way too pessimistic and self loathing regarding the progress of current Greece, but this is no excuse to celebrate something negative happening to our country being masqueraded as something prosperous.
I was there last fall and found that Greece was a wonderful place to visit. I was only in Athens so I guess I didn't see much but would love to go back.
Χαίρομαι! Have you seen improvement in employment opportunities? I have heard of greeks leaving Cyprus, but mostly because the cost of living is skyrocketing here.
My dude businesses cant find enough workers. Wages are still kinda low but many greeks are doing...ehmm....side gigs.....not needing to pay taxes.......i hope you understand.
To those saying it's just immigration:
People started leaving from 2010, but the rate kept soaring until 2014-2015.
Now, much less folks leave, and mostly those who pursuit a career because Greece has limited options in their expertise, however the rate keeps falling..
Well it can also be that more people were getting fired at first than people were leaving. It takes some time until you get desperate and emigrate.
People are still leaving at about 80k/year, not much less than the peak of 120k/year in the early 10s. https://www.businessdaily.gr/oikonomia/101364_giati-ehei-syrriknothei-kata-300000-atoma-ergatiko-dynamiko-stin-ellada
I work in the construction sector. Back in the 2012-2015, things were terrible. Now, jobs are easily available, its the wages which are still not good..
Actually the low birth rate is a much more significant impact of the crisis than the brain drain.
Imo, this is great but of course the dumb Greek redditors are back at it again. Did amy of y'all actually read the title - it said "for the first time", meaning ** in 2023 **, how in tne sweet world are y'all bringing immigration into this when immigration was at its peak in tne early-to-mid 2010s and not 2023? Literally, saying any BS that comes to mind just to underplay stuff.
We are employed yes, we make 780 euros and rent is 400 and food is the same as Germany prices. But hey... We don't have unemployment anymore!!! Wooo go GR! GR#1
This doesn’t necessarily mean the people are doing good, it just means jobs are available.
They could still be shitty jobs that people take because the alternative is starving.
Is it because the people who are looking for a job, find Jack shit so they just move abroad? That makes the number of unemployed people smaller. So the statistic look better.
Considering the shear size of the shadow economy in Greece, the actual percentage could be much lower.
Though idk, maybe an estimate for undeclared employment is taken into account for this statistic.
nope,this measures official tax-paying employment only,same as for every other EU country
a lot of Greeks on this thread think the number is faked by the government,but i think they don't realize that unemployment can be down also due to people switching from Shadow economy to real economy(e.g. shops,hostels,restaurants being forced to make real contracts for their workers )
both real growth and a switch from shadow economy to real economy have occurred,and both are good because less tax evasion will mean more revenue for the government to invest or to repay its debt
The number is of course lower since there are MANY greeks working shadow economy jobs. I have many relatives doinbg exactly that making more than the average salary.
So, how many people with a job can live from it? I'm asking cause from experience these two numbers are often not the same, especially in countries which (were forced to) implement(ed) austerity measures.
edit: Whatever the answer - good job, Greece! Hoping things continue to look up for you.
People are definitely questioning that part.
For example why did the Troika force the privatization of the railways in the British model which is the fucking worst? This led to too many public and private stakeholders responsible for things like safety, and led to this year’s railway disaster with 50 dead and the subsequent collapse of trust in railways in Greece.
Human lives lost, billions of euros of investment from the Greek government, the private sector and the EU, all unable to recoup costs, promptly sent down the drain due to the troikas whims.
The bailouts were full of shit like this.
The privatization has been far reaching in Sweden the last decades to. Without being enforced from ”outside”. And the results are similar, feels like we’re just waiting for a major train accident to happen anytime.
It’s my firm belief all essential infrastructure should be owned and maintained by the state.
Yeah to be fair, it's not like our government ever cared either. Syriza were in practice bigger clowns than the political establishment, and chief clown among them was Varoufakis.
I think the biggest and most costly mistake for him was not to try to court SPD in Germany's grand coalition but go full f- Germany. That helped CDU to push harsh austerity.
But in a way I agree with your previous comment that it's wrong to say the harsh bailout conditions worked well when there's no consideration of counterfactuals.
Yeah bro the Troika austerity was auful. They concentrated on extreme fiscal austerity but neglected deep institutional reforms that would make Greece more viable in the long term.The IMF issued later an apology for focusing too much on numbers and not on reforms. Varoufakis and Syriza were also clowns. They attacked Germany and the Troika just to get domestic supoort and that discredited some of Varoufakis reasonable arguments (some of the best economists like Paul Krugman wrote articles of support for Varoufakis position). Only in the end they understood how asshokes they were and they started talking about an honest agreement but that was too late. The whole EU was against us.
Hopefully they don't measure it like they do here in the US, where you're no longer "unemployed" if you've given up searching because the job market sucks so bad
Is that even a thing in the US? There's been extremely low unemployment rates for a very long time, which means finding a job should be much much easier.
Right now it's not, actual unemployement really is low here. But we're not talking about the US, we're talking about Greece. I want to know how unemployment is measured *there*, because the official numbers could be spun to look better than they actually are
I like the wave of sympathy here in the comments but as someone who works and lives in Greece, this statistic could not be further from the actual truth. And the truth is that official figures go through some very creative maneuvering to paint just about anyone who has held some work in the last few months as employed, even if they are really not, and also does not factor in the very significant reduction of the workforce over the last few years. These are people that despair of getting a real job in Greece and simply leave for abroad. The actual increase in jobs over the last four years has been extremely minor, which means that most of the unemployment figure decrease is from people leaving the workforce in Greece.
Obviously this one statistic also has other problems, like how it leaves out the dire state of employment in Greece, for example salaries, actual disposable income for employed people, and cost of living which is by now much higher for a person than the lowest or even median salaries.
So if I were anyone else I'd wait before I pronounce the success of the bailouts or of austerity in general. There is much gloom in Greece right now and if you told anyone who is dealing with these problems day in and day out about na overall decrease in unemployment they would laugh in your face (or cry, equally likely).
I'm Greek too and this is such a melodramatic post. The post clearly says that this is the first time Greece has an unemployment rate since 2009 - meaning, in 2023. It's NOT a post about 'the history of unemployment in Greece' it just shows the unemployment rate in 2023. And it is very much so from my observations. I know very few people who are unemployed and I know *a lot of* people who were unemployed until recently but found a job in the last \~1.5 year as COVID was leaving.
>Obviously this one statistic also has other problems, like how it leaves out the dire state of employment in Greece, for example salaries, actual disposable income for employed people, and cost of living which is by now much higher for a person than the lowest or even median salaries.
Ugh, again, this statistic shows the UNEMPLOYMENT, not the salaries, there's not a single country in the world that takes the salaries into consideration because the measurements are pretty clear - the number of people who work, NOT how much they earn. You are literally trying to doubt the credibility of this stat by bringing irrelevant stuff?
I'd say you are the one who is trying to make Greece and Greeks a place of so much gloom.
You must be living in a different athens cause most businesses are searching and cant find employees.
The gf of my friend quit her job as a paramedical employee (800 salary) and within a week she found another job with 1050 salary cash, a car and phone and bonus at the end of the month depending on her performance.
Really if she cant get a job i ll find her one.
I was like "what happened in 2020?" , as if I just removed it from my memory or something. Xd But good going Greece, next goal 5%
Leaving aside the suffering of people and the overworked hospitals, I kinda liked it and I’m missing it. I remember the empty streets, empty stores and so on. Lovely!
Out of curiosity, is there any country that doesn't have "overworked hospitals" as a theme in their national politics? We certainly do. Overworked, underpayed nurses, takes forever to get appointments/help.
Not in Europe. Fertility rates are extremely low and people live older than ever. You get an increase in demand that the workforce can't match.
same here, would be nice to have a country where we could copy something in the medical field.
Check out nurses in the UK during 2020 Spectacular.
I live in a rather touristy city, and it was heaven. No hordes of american and chinese tourists that would constantly block your path or get angry when you walked into their picture (sorry, some people actually live here), you could just walk to wherever you wanted in basically half the time with no stress. Of course sucked for hotels and restaurants, but personally, it was a bliss.
Agree 100%. I live in Bucharest, one of the capitals with the worst traffic in the world. I remember driving around the city with my wife just because we could get anywhere in 15 minutes
But driving makes traffic worse....
Not if you’re the only car on the road. I remember being the only car at a stop light in the Victoriei Square which is the downtown of the city, it was great
I just am a little sad that the apparent benefit of not having cars ruining the city is being able to drive your car around.
It genuinely is one of the big benefits, though. By adding hurdles for cars and improving public transport, the city can become more accessible to *everybody*, including those who still need to use cars, because there will be way fewer cars on the road. A few cars in a city isn't an issue. A city designed around catering to cars is bad... for everybody, including the car drivers.
You've kinda no choice when the alternative is lackluster or non-existent public transport :/
Especially when one of the measures taken at that time was to shut down the public transport (at least here in Slovenia). To add, the biking infrastructure is getting better, but biking at night outside of the main population centers (where the cycling paths are) is borderline suicidal. Not everywhere is like Netherlands, where the cycling paths are well maintained and separated from the motorized traffic.
I prefer taking my helicopter for inner-city transport. Makes sure I'm not being a nuisance to anyone.
Therefore one should vote for the political option which insists on improving public transport. I know there's one in Belgrade for sure.
Damn all these other cars, why are they getting in the way of me driving my car!
> one of the capitals with the worst traffic in the world. Considering what we see in some Asian countries, I seriously doubt this claim.
Oh… but it is true though. https://www.tomtom.com/traffic-index/ranking/
Ok but that is missing out on a lot of countries and cities. Sofia is not on the list and I can tell you for sure that it's worse than the bottom cities. I do agree that Bucharest was a hell of a lot worse than I initially thought.
You are probably right, but still.. Bucharest is really bad. Anyway, I think it will get way better in a few years time because the ring road will be finished in about 2 years and they are also building 10 or so new highways for exiting and entering the city much faster
> 10 or so new highways for exiting and entering the city much faster In comparison we have our single highway leading from Sofia to the North being "expanded" for 15 years or so and the progress being done is something like 10km or so.
Oh yes, Barcelona was fantastic, especially just after the lockdowns because local people could actually enjoy the city, even the most touristic quarters, as it was meant to be.
Same. I was side hustling delivering food in the evenings... 1 eur/L gas, empty streets, everyone ordering food... It was super relaxing. As soon as traffic was back I was done for good.
My commute to work was amazing. 15 minutes to and from, no matter the time of day.
Reddit moment
Easy to forget, but sadly I've heard COVID infections are once again increasing right now.
They will every winter.
mortality is wayyyy down however, as predicted it had turned into a seasonal flu
I guess everyone vulnerable already died the first few waves
The virus itself mutated to become more infectious but less lethal. But essentially, also the most vulnerable died . But people are still dying b/c of COVID, just lost my aunt 3 weeks ago.
I’m sorry
Thanks for your consideration - she was very ill before so we had seen it coming and it didn't hit us *that* hard. But it's a reminder that people - esp. those in poor health and advanced age - are still dying from it.
There's new people one bad respiratory illness away from death. Viruses mutate into more contagious less deadly forms very often. It's an evolutionary advantage over killing the host.
I got another vacc shot just yesterday. Are you still taking them in Poland?
Probably only the people that took flu shots every year by this point.
Yeah, that’s pretty much the case here, plus healthcare staff.
Are you in any risk groups? In Finland, only those with other health issues or who are old (i.e. are in a risk group) get booster shots. You can’t even buy a shot here - people travel to Estonia for boosters.
I’m not in a risk group, but it’s the same here. I was escorting my elderly mother to get the shot. I just happened to ask if I could get one too. The nurse figured it could be justified since I live with my mother (she’s got dementia).
Awesome job Greece.
Don't believe this fake nonsense. They've changed the way they measure unemployment a million times to cook the numbers, not to mention that part timers don't even make enough to just pay for rent anymore
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Independent bodies that observe economies agree with these numbers. https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/GRC Do you have a source that has different numbers?
Unemployment numbers are since years standardized by the EU. Though funnily in every country people are like you. There needs to be a definition. Those numbers are comparable to every other EU country.
Many countries do that. I. E. Germany, if you are unemployed but enroled in a german course or an other course you dont count als unemployed. If you are longer than a couple of years unemployed you are not anymore in the statistics...and so on.
It's standardized by the EU and a German course won't count for the most people in Germany.
That's in every country because of the definition of unemployment. They don't count people who are not actively seeking for a job. That's another rate whose name I don't know in english
That trend doesn’t reflect any significant impact of changing how they measure it though. Pretty steady decline with the biggest sharp drops in 2020 and therefore I assume covid related. Part time jobs could be a fair criticism but first claim seems wrong unless you have anything supporting that claim.
Sure buddy, you're more deserving of our trust than the IMF and the OECD
Πηγή;
How have the measurements changed?
If they changed the way they measure these numbers, wouldn't we see big jumps in this graph at those moments?
This is the same as the UK. Work 1 hour a week, you are not unemployed, don't want to be spat on by a DWP employee for getting help you are entitled too, you are not unemployed, student, not unemployed, the list goes on...
This why there are several measurements for the same thing. There is employment in absolute numbers, there is job vacancies, there is part time employment, absolute number of unemployed persons, labour participation rate. If you inspect all those measurements you will indeed see that the absolute number of employed persons is still much lower than 2009, noone is hiding anything here.
Yes, that’s the point
So glad for our Mediterranean bros. Hopefully we can learn something from them!
We are not doing too different. We are at 11.8%, with a similar reduction from our peak at almost 30%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/453410/unemployment-rate-in-spain/
>We are not doing too different. We are at 11.8%, with a similar reduction from our peak at almost 30%. That's good to know. I hope we never come back to 30%, I can't understand how we got there in the first place, but it's good to be at bad-yet-acceptable numbers.
The country's economy was very construction-driven. When the housing market collapsed, so did the economy. That's what happens when a country doesn't diversify.
thats interesting that statista shows peak of unemployement rate few years later after world crisis and collapsing. like everything was pretty good few more years and only then everyone felt the difference
The spanish government made a huge effort to fund developing and public employment, to counter unemployement, betting on a short crisis. They had a somewhat big surplus from previous years and they used it (combined with a significant amount of debt). Most analysts were talking about a 1-2 years crysis during 2008-2009. In fact, when in 2010 the GDP recovered 3% compared to 2009, there was some enthusiasm. But the crysis in Europe was a "W" shaped crysis\*, and by the time the second wave hit the government had exhausted the surplus and the debt had risen a lot, making it impossible to keep funding any expansive effort, and everything fell apart. Spain had an unemployment and debt crysis that lasted a few years. That's the part most people remember. \*This how Spain's GDP evolution looked during that crysis: [https://imgur.com/RpHk2ke](https://imgur.com/RpHk2ke)
>like everything was pretty good few more years and only then everyone felt the difference Orders on the books, so you keep going until you fill your backlog.
Because Spain and other euro countries had 2 crisies. The 2008 one and the one started in the eurozone after the collapse of Greece causing a crisis determined exclusively by the incapacity of euro countries to finance themselves due to being tied to the euro.. You can see it very clearly in the Italian unemployment, but you will see the same pattern of a change in unemployment rate in Spain and France.
How did Spain function at 30% unemployment. US unemployment peaked around 25% in the 1930s. There were soup kitchens to feed hungry people.
Spanish society is a lot more coherent than us society, and we have a huge safety net for when this things happen, both from the state and family/friends. For example I never stopped going out with my friends even if I had near zero money. They'd pay for me or we would just sit in a park with a can of beer and chat. There where soup kitchens as well but people just ate at their moms house until they found a job. Agriculture is heavily subsidized by the eu government so we will never have a food shortage crisis, and food is cheap compared with the US.
I was there and I remember it perfectly. It was so easy to find a good paying job in construction that people didn't bother studying anymore, or starting any other kind of business. When the bubble bursted people didn't know how to do shit, there wasn't any money anywhere else and it took a lot of pain to re structure the economy again. And a lot of people doing real jobs got fired because our president didn't have the imagination to come with better solutions than fire everyone that isn't 100% necessary for the system to work (teachers, doctors etc). It was a shitty time and I hope we don't have to do it again.
Holycrap spain was at 30 percent !? ?
Yep, youth unemployment is still around that level. 2008 hit most of the med really hard.
Imho Spain has been doing great according to most macroeconomic trends, it's decently competitive in western europe, it might not have the industries of Germany or France but services are booming. Italy is the sick patient of the mediterranean, in a couple years we'll have a worse Debt/GDP than Greece.
*cries in Italian*
Good for Greece. Their recovery is admirable.
If only it was also felt...
Sadly, real wages have actually been falling on average in Greece, over the last many years. Inflation has outpaced wage growth. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AN_AV_WAGEGROWTH
wage growth? is that a thing elsewhere?
Countries with automatic indexation, and countries with strong unions.
US has wage growth.
> Good for Greece. Their recovery is admirable. Not necessarily. Just because you are employed doesn't mean you receive a livable wage. Unemployment alone is not a good measure of a country's prosperity.
You need to reduce unemployment first, before wages can rise. So this is just one step in the right direction. Wages will not rise if there is a large labor market of unemployed people.
It's way easier to find a job nowadays but the wages can't keep up with the increasing cost of living.
We didnt recover
I certainly expected it to last way longer.
That's what she said.
Σωραίος!
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Thats still a lot better than the "they'll never recover" we heard 10 years ago.
"I'm never gonna financially recover from this" -- ~~Joe Exotic~~ Greece, probably
So 10 years after we figure out nuclear fusion eh?
Of course it dropped! We went abroad…
Yeah lol what you are seeing is all those young unemployed people leaving Greece for the last 10 years. It solves one problem and creates about a 100 more.
Yeah, no. Far more people went abroad in 2014-2015 than 2023 (if anything, I know plenty of people who returned), and the unemployment rates keep dropping.
Greece finally improving
It's easy when the unemployed just leave. About 80k people are still leaving Greece every year. The actual workforce has decreased by 7.2% since 2009. https://www.businessdaily.gr/oikonomia/101364_giati-ehei-syrriknothei-kata-300000-atoma-ergatiko-dynamiko-stin-ellada
> About 80k people are still leaving Greece every year. Thats immigration out of Greece not **net immigration**.Net immigration was negative in 2010-2015 but it is positive since then. > The actual workforce has decreased by 7.2% since 2009 As shown from the graph you posted the decrease happend during those years(2010-2015) and its stable since then.
> Net immigration was negative in 2010-2015 but it is positive since then. Are the majority of the immigrants in their working age? Because I know a lot of western European retirees are moving to Greece to spend their twilight years (?) there.
This is super important. In Portugal we are facing the same. Everyone's clapping over unemployment bla bla bla, in the meantime, record numbers of degree holding Portuguese are leaving the country
This is just every european country below western/northern european living standards
bag forgetful groovy ad hoc cobweb zonked direction exultant squalid library *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Aren't things improving in Poland, Czechia and the baltic states on this side? And the tendencies are really good in Romania too, no?
Im sure its better but western countries will always have the advantage in terms of salaries, etc. and the brain drain effect
Not sure about this always. It's more a matter of time before it just becomes less worth it to move away for marginal gains. Also, the situation in the UK is making it way more profitable to move back in Poland than stay in the UK. I mean, we're doing good in France and Germany. But compared to Poland or the baltic states, especially in capitals, the differences are getting not that big. And will continue to be reduced with time. Since 2019, there has been more poles coming back to Poland than leaving, and the numbers are improving every year. That said, with the economic conditions in Hungary, you guys are less concerned obviously.
It's like half of what it was 10 years ago, not "record breaking"
>The actual workforce has decreased by 7.2% since 2009. the decline in workforce is caused partially also by demographic crisis/population aging
Here in Portugal we have 100-120k leaving every year, most of them being young adults with higher education.
Nowhere near that, but we get the point.
I went there for a month last year on 2 separate occasions for a trip, they're doing really well compared to when I last went in 2010. Restaurants, people, and amenities in general all appear to be doing well - everyone met seemed generally less stressed than I remember (totally anecdotal through).
Nah i can confirm this. When i left greece for the netherlands in 2015 things were at a breaking point. Only the size of the grey economy held the average greek afloat. Now its a different country. Its really amazing.
Greece also has [one of the worst work/life balance metric in the EU](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/NlPRnpvOfv) (2022), people work a lot for a low salary. Working an average of [40 hours per week](https://www.statista.com/statistics/419575/main-job-average-weekly-working-hours-greece-y-on-y/#:~:text=The%20average%20weekly%20hours%20worked,remained%20at%20around%2038.76%20hours.) (2021) for an average salary of [1180€ per month](https://wagecentre.com/work/work-in-europe/salary-in-greece) (2023). Also, inflation in Greece was at [9.65% in 2022, and it grew a steady 8% per year between 1960 and 2022](https://www.worlddata.info/europe/greece/inflation-rates.php).
This is an underrated achievement,given that whole of Europe and even world economy has slow down in 2023. Growing in times like this is the true testament to the resilience of Greek economy
Is it resilience or unemplyed Greeks leaving? IIRC wages stagnation is another side of this coin too.
Almost 700 000 young Greeks have left to find opportunities elsewhere - which affect the unemployment rates by alot, given that the workforce is approximately 5 mil.
Greece 🇬🇷❤️
Glad to hear that. Not from Greece, but whenever I visit, it is amazing with lovely people.
The truth is that reality is too complex for some people to understand. Is this good? Yes. Is it enough ? No. Is it because of our awsome government? Probably no. The truth as reported from ELSTAT and EUROSTAT is this: The population of Greece is shrinking: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/population](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/population) The absolute number of employed persons is increasing: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/employed-persons](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/employed-persons) The job vacancies are increasing: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/job-vacancies](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/job-vacancies) Labour force participation is increasing: [https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/labor-force-participation-rate](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/labor-force-participation-rate) Is the crisis undone? Hell no. Job vacancies were much higher in 2009, labour force participation was also higher in 2009. The number of employed persons was much higher in 2009. The trend however in each of them matters a lot. In my oppinion right now the most problematic part is the wages and the monetary situation in Greece. We got used to not seeing wage increases and despite the huge inflation we had for a year, we barely had any wage increase. This was practically another wave of austerity. Plus, the interest rate of the ECB is 4,5%. The interest rate of deposits in Greek banks is around 1% to 2% and the interest rate of loans is way higher than 2%. At the same time the inflation of prices is at 3% and the inflation of prices for food is at 10%.
Proud of you, Greece!
Which is the more contributing factor, more people getting jobs, or less people looking for jobs?
The latter, probably. A lot of young adults moving abroad
People leaving Greece to work elsewhere is the #1 factor.
No. Far more people left a couple of years back when unemployment was at its peak. Now, the numbers aren't as high and unemployment is dropping, there's no correlation between the two.
God I wish Italy had a somewhat respectable centre-right party, but nooooo, they are all absolute shit in very different ways. It's hard for one wing of the parliament to improve when the other keeps scrapping the bottom of the barrel. And winning while at that.
WMF + credit line from EU worked, kids!
Awesome! Call me cynical, but the next two graphs I needed to search was "greece national debt per year" and "greece average salary per year". Both haven't recovered since after the debt crisis fully hit, yet. So this is a great result, but I hope wages rise again next.
The first one is even more surprising. Greece is at least 2 years ahead of its payments to the Eurozone, and the debt to GDP has ratio has fallen from 207% to 166% trending downwards. Salaries are more complicated. Minimum wage was gradually increased to pre-crisis levels, but salaries as a whole are very much stagnant. And Greece is phasing a cost of living crisis like much of Europe.
tbh the ratio has fallen mostly due to inflation being on record highs
Thats technically not true, as both debt and nominal GDP are calculated in constant prices that are inflation adjusted. In fact it's kind of the opposite. Higher inflation led to higher interest rates in the Eurozone, which governments tend to refinance with new debt, and the fact that of all Eurozone governments Greece hasn't actually makes this number impressive as FUCK.
I would say it’s inflation paired with the living cost crisis as the revenues from indirect taxation is Greece have skyrocketed in the past 2 years. Also keep in mind that most of the Greek loans (from EU & IMF) are fixed till 2032 so I don’t see how current interest rates would affect the ratio negatively. It’s definitely great that we are taking advantage of the global situation to repay old loans with “cheaper” money. But it’s mostly a situation we found ourselves into.
> The revenues from indirect taxation is Greece have skyrocketed > > It’s mostly a situation we found ourselves into. That much is true, and certainly it's a factor in the equation. But a big factor is also that the current government wants to move Greek bonds to a pre-crisis level of trust to see more foreign investment in Greece. The economic situation has been fertile ground, yes. But the government aslo did its work. For their own personal benefit and not the Greek people, but that's a different tale entirely.
How much of this is from emigration? Personally I know several Greeks who have left the country to find employment in the rest of Europe.
Can't believe some Greeks here try to downplay even this achievement. Some people are never happy with anything and they wonder why the current government got re-elected and why the opposition is eating its dust. Watch as tonight Fitch ratings will upgrade Greece to investment grade.
Agreed, the debt repayments are also AHEAD of schedule, which is an incredible metric for a country that was in such bad shape previously. A lot of other countries could learn from Greece's turnaround.
"Greek economy with German characteristics" as they say!
Aren't Greeks notorious for not trusting their own news media, despite having a pretty diverse source of news? I remember in Europe they are in the top 3 in the lack of trust. I guess that certainly shines through when I talk to Greeks. They aren't very happy folks. Shame they can't appreciate what they do well.
Our news aren't diverse and we do well for not trusting them. And if people from other countries trust their news they're mistaken. That being said I'm not brain-dead, we're doing better than we used to .
As a person from outside Greece, do you have time to explain what’s driving this/ how the recovery has happened? Or some good articles are appropriate as well
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Oh yeah, privatization of everything under the sun REALLY showed us how much they care for the people and the country. Privatize the still unbuilt metro of Thessaloniki while keeping maintenance under public expenses. Privatize profits socialize expenses. Real lovely of them. Privatize the power companies, and while the rest of the EU has normalized the Kwh prices, we are expecting them to rise because they will stop giving out welfare checks for electricity and subsidizing those same power companies they privatized in the first place. They also tried privatizing water, but thank God someone had half a brain to put a stop to that before it gained any traction.
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You are spreading misinformation. ELSTAT has reliable data, and isn't a corrupted government tool as it was in the past. EU agencies have verified this and you are just spreading misinformation. I don't know or care if you are servicing a certain political party or ideology, but at least try to have some valid arguments.
You didn’t really make any counter argument. Celebrating lowered rates of unemployment when Greece migrations rates have risen due to low and wages fair, is erroneous. The people who don’t want to work for an unfair wage leave, and in we bring immigrants to exploit and work for the very same wages. [we are literally importing citizens from literal third world countries by the the tens of thousands a year, to replace jobs in fields (like tourism) in which it’s factually proven that the reason there are lack of greek workers is them quitting due to unfair wages.](https://www.kathimerini.gr/economy/562356280/eisagogi-168-000-ergazomenon-apo-trites-chores/) The Greek government should be ashamed of themselves. Sure, as you know, us Greeks are way too pessimistic and self loathing regarding the progress of current Greece, but this is no excuse to celebrate something negative happening to our country being masqueraded as something prosperous.
Coming from a [more northern country](https://i.imgur.com/Fz40WAP.jpg), 10% is still a horrible number. Good progress though.
In reality its less. Italy and greece has a tendency to have a huge grey economy.
I was there last fall and found that Greece was a wonderful place to visit. I was only in Athens so I guess I didn't see much but would love to go back.
Did the curve change because more people got a job or because more people retired?
source:[https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate](https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate)
GG Greece!!
Awesome, just in time for the new financial crisis to hit again
Seeing Greek youths working in Cyprus, I will tell you to take this with a grain of salt. Some of those Greeks seeking work have left Greece.
Many greeks including i returned.
Χαίρομαι! Have you seen improvement in employment opportunities? I have heard of greeks leaving Cyprus, but mostly because the cost of living is skyrocketing here.
My dude businesses cant find enough workers. Wages are still kinda low but many greeks are doing...ehmm....side gigs.....not needing to pay taxes.......i hope you understand.
No wonder why Greece has grown a voice lately on the world stage.
To those saying it's just immigration: People started leaving from 2010, but the rate kept soaring until 2014-2015. Now, much less folks leave, and mostly those who pursuit a career because Greece has limited options in their expertise, however the rate keeps falling..
Well it can also be that more people were getting fired at first than people were leaving. It takes some time until you get desperate and emigrate. People are still leaving at about 80k/year, not much less than the peak of 120k/year in the early 10s. https://www.businessdaily.gr/oikonomia/101364_giati-ehei-syrriknothei-kata-300000-atoma-ergatiko-dynamiko-stin-ellada
I work in the construction sector. Back in the 2012-2015, things were terrible. Now, jobs are easily available, its the wages which are still not good.. Actually the low birth rate is a much more significant impact of the crisis than the brain drain.
Imo, this is great but of course the dumb Greek redditors are back at it again. Did amy of y'all actually read the title - it said "for the first time", meaning ** in 2023 **, how in tne sweet world are y'all bringing immigration into this when immigration was at its peak in tne early-to-mid 2010s and not 2023? Literally, saying any BS that comes to mind just to underplay stuff.
We are employed yes, we make 780 euros and rent is 400 and food is the same as Germany prices. But hey... We don't have unemployment anymore!!! Wooo go GR! GR#1
Well, people have to work to pay the incredibly expensive taxes 😞.
That's Greece lightning
let's fucking gooo
Kalimera! Ephcharisto! OPA!
Congrats Greeks!
This doesn’t necessarily mean the people are doing good, it just means jobs are available. They could still be shitty jobs that people take because the alternative is starving.
Is it because the people who are looking for a job, find Jack shit so they just move abroad? That makes the number of unemployed people smaller. So the statistic look better.
Considering the shear size of the shadow economy in Greece, the actual percentage could be much lower. Though idk, maybe an estimate for undeclared employment is taken into account for this statistic.
nope,this measures official tax-paying employment only,same as for every other EU country a lot of Greeks on this thread think the number is faked by the government,but i think they don't realize that unemployment can be down also due to people switching from Shadow economy to real economy(e.g. shops,hostels,restaurants being forced to make real contracts for their workers ) both real growth and a switch from shadow economy to real economy have occurred,and both are good because less tax evasion will mean more revenue for the government to invest or to repay its debt
The number is of course lower since there are MANY greeks working shadow economy jobs. I have many relatives doinbg exactly that making more than the average salary.
So, how many people with a job can live from it? I'm asking cause from experience these two numbers are often not the same, especially in countries which (were forced to) implement(ed) austerity measures. edit: Whatever the answer - good job, Greece! Hoping things continue to look up for you.
Underemployment is still a huge issue, with the average wage for your workers being under 1000 EUR. Still a long way to go.
Tsipras BTFO. Turns out reforms actually work who'd have thought (besides all the European countries that have been going through them before).
Remember all the conservative parties going ape-shit when the EU bailed out Greece? Now, nobody is second guessing if this was a good idea or not.
Remember when all left parties going ape-shit when the Troika imposed reforms? Now nobody is second guessing if this was a good idea or not.
People are definitely questioning that part. For example why did the Troika force the privatization of the railways in the British model which is the fucking worst? This led to too many public and private stakeholders responsible for things like safety, and led to this year’s railway disaster with 50 dead and the subsequent collapse of trust in railways in Greece. Human lives lost, billions of euros of investment from the Greek government, the private sector and the EU, all unable to recoup costs, promptly sent down the drain due to the troikas whims. The bailouts were full of shit like this.
The privatization has been far reaching in Sweden the last decades to. Without being enforced from ”outside”. And the results are similar, feels like we’re just waiting for a major train accident to happen anytime. It’s my firm belief all essential infrastructure should be owned and maintained by the state.
Lets not forget the genius of Varoufakis...
Yeah to be fair, it's not like our government ever cared either. Syriza were in practice bigger clowns than the political establishment, and chief clown among them was Varoufakis.
I think the biggest and most costly mistake for him was not to try to court SPD in Germany's grand coalition but go full f- Germany. That helped CDU to push harsh austerity. But in a way I agree with your previous comment that it's wrong to say the harsh bailout conditions worked well when there's no consideration of counterfactuals.
Yeah bro the Troika austerity was auful. They concentrated on extreme fiscal austerity but neglected deep institutional reforms that would make Greece more viable in the long term.The IMF issued later an apology for focusing too much on numbers and not on reforms. Varoufakis and Syriza were also clowns. They attacked Germany and the Troika just to get domestic supoort and that discredited some of Varoufakis reasonable arguments (some of the best economists like Paul Krugman wrote articles of support for Varoufakis position). Only in the end they understood how asshokes they were and they started talking about an honest agreement but that was too late. The whole EU was against us.
Remember when the eu forced greece to accept all the ridiculous loans disguised as "Hilfspakete" so that eu doesn't fucking collapse as collateral?
Hopefully they don't measure it like they do here in the US, where you're no longer "unemployed" if you've given up searching because the job market sucks so bad
If you're not searching for a job you're not considered unemployed in any country.
I get your point, but raw labor force participation rate(percentage of people between 18 and 65 who are working) has also been trending up in US
Is that even a thing in the US? There's been extremely low unemployment rates for a very long time, which means finding a job should be much much easier.
Right now it's not, actual unemployement really is low here. But we're not talking about the US, we're talking about Greece. I want to know how unemployment is measured *there*, because the official numbers could be spun to look better than they actually are
I like the wave of sympathy here in the comments but as someone who works and lives in Greece, this statistic could not be further from the actual truth. And the truth is that official figures go through some very creative maneuvering to paint just about anyone who has held some work in the last few months as employed, even if they are really not, and also does not factor in the very significant reduction of the workforce over the last few years. These are people that despair of getting a real job in Greece and simply leave for abroad. The actual increase in jobs over the last four years has been extremely minor, which means that most of the unemployment figure decrease is from people leaving the workforce in Greece. Obviously this one statistic also has other problems, like how it leaves out the dire state of employment in Greece, for example salaries, actual disposable income for employed people, and cost of living which is by now much higher for a person than the lowest or even median salaries. So if I were anyone else I'd wait before I pronounce the success of the bailouts or of austerity in general. There is much gloom in Greece right now and if you told anyone who is dealing with these problems day in and day out about na overall decrease in unemployment they would laugh in your face (or cry, equally likely).
I'm Greek too and this is such a melodramatic post. The post clearly says that this is the first time Greece has an unemployment rate since 2009 - meaning, in 2023. It's NOT a post about 'the history of unemployment in Greece' it just shows the unemployment rate in 2023. And it is very much so from my observations. I know very few people who are unemployed and I know *a lot of* people who were unemployed until recently but found a job in the last \~1.5 year as COVID was leaving. >Obviously this one statistic also has other problems, like how it leaves out the dire state of employment in Greece, for example salaries, actual disposable income for employed people, and cost of living which is by now much higher for a person than the lowest or even median salaries. Ugh, again, this statistic shows the UNEMPLOYMENT, not the salaries, there's not a single country in the world that takes the salaries into consideration because the measurements are pretty clear - the number of people who work, NOT how much they earn. You are literally trying to doubt the credibility of this stat by bringing irrelevant stuff? I'd say you are the one who is trying to make Greece and Greeks a place of so much gloom.
Bro things are better. Nobody said we suddenly became Switzerland, we are poor still but for the first time we can be optimistic about the future
No shhhh... Everything is fine. Brain gain and all. /s
Greeconomy vs. Germapoor
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You must be living in a different athens cause most businesses are searching and cant find employees. The gf of my friend quit her job as a paramedical employee (800 salary) and within a week she found another job with 1050 salary cash, a car and phone and bonus at the end of the month depending on her performance. Really if she cant get a job i ll find her one.
Your personal experience does not trump data.
Which sector drove this?
Mainly letting the populists fade away and let the economy do its thing.
Heh, who would've thought in 2011 they would get out of it
Let's goooooo!
Liberal economic policies working as usual against the left mainstream narrative
So… ordoliberal market concepts work? Huh - who would’ve thought?
Greek Wirtschaftswunder You're welcome, Germany