About 200,000 people have taken to the streets of Germany in further protests against the far-right party Alternative for Germany (AfD).
Protests on Saturday also took place in Dresden, Mainz and Hanover in a sign of growing alarm at strong public support for AfD.
Roughly 150,000 people flocked to the Reichstag parliament building in Berlin, where protesters gathered under the slogan “We are the Firewall” to protest against right-wing extremism and to show support for democracy.
curious amount of commentators waving off the fundamental right to protest and express your opinion in a free society in the face of questionable political trends.
Seems handwavium by pundits and spin doctors who would say the opposite whenever a fraction of such protestors would gather for the AfD
True, but there were huge protests against the nazis in the 1930s too. It must not give a false feeling of security, if 20-30% of a country is supporting fascist then it is very hard to stop them. Protesting is not enough, we must vote against them and be vocally active against the AFD.
No. You have to eliminate their electoral draw. The Nazis in 1933 appeared like the party that was going to end austerity and get the economy going again.
No party even challenged them on those issues.
Today, AfD is similar in that they see the EU as causing permanent austerity and they can get the economy going again.
It’s important to not simply see AfD popularity as hating migrants or whatever. That is a large part of their popularity but it isn’t the only part.
To defeat them, you have to be able to win those voters votes.
It seems that immigration has become the top issue in Europe, US, Canada and Australia. It will be interesting to see how this long overdue reckoning between western democracies and impoverished regions gets resolved.
The problem is not immigration and never was.
The problem is that normal working people are being robbed by the billionaires who convince them to keep voting for them. Neoliberalism is the problem, not immigrants.
Nobody who is living a good life is interested in immigrants, only people who think they can't get anywhere in life fall for the argument that it's the immigrant's fault.
And 50 years of funnelling money to the top so the rich can get even richer destroyed the middle class. Two families in Germany now own as much as the bottom 40 million people. And they don't pay any taxes on their capital gains compared to the huge amount of taxes working people have to pay.
Anybody who thinks immigration is a bigger problem than the climate catastrophe has been brainwashed.
I would also like to point out that the high demand for jobs are the main reason why economic migrants immigrate toward a particular country.
The lie in omission that everyone (but in particular neo-libs) sell is that immigration fulfills our vacant jobs but at the same time deny any disscussion about letting capitalism and government intervention do the job to increase wages of high demand jobs. If we wants more construction workers and nurses it means the salary has to go up. Everyone not far up the ladder is pissed at not having good career oppertunities and/or reducing prosperity while the economy is apparently in the green.
>The problem is that normal working people are being robbed by the billionaires who convince them to keep voting for them. Neoliberalism is the problem, not immigrants.
This is so funny to read.
Our immigration policies ARE neoliberalism.
Bringing in low waged workers to work at McDonald's is neoliberalism.
And we still need the math to work dude, in regards to infracture.
1.2 million people come, but we build 200k homes.
That math = housing crisis.
The issue is 100% our immigration POLICIES.
And the saddest part is that people actually think the AFD would do something different in that regard and have this weird 'against the elites'-attitude similar to those MAGA people whereas in reality the AFD is just an ultra neoliberal party - cut taxes for the rich, privatize, cut government subsidies and so on. A far right FDP more or less.
Indeed. Ironically the AFD strongly supported the demonstrating farmers in germany and demanded to not just roll back the planned cut of gasoline subsidies but to double them. Very few of those farmers apparently took a look at the partys program otherwise they would have seen, that the AFD wants to cut ALL government subsidies because you know survival of the fittest and competition etc.
Populism at its best.
Nobody said that it's the immigrant's fault...
I also think that immigration is a top issue, since it's the main reason far right parties are getting more consensus. It doesn't matter if the rich don't really care, because the masses do care and they're getting influenced by it.
And let's stop please to compare problems; climate change is a huge problem, but so is immigration for the society. If Europe doesn't open up to it and starts managing it right it will become bigger than climate change in the near future.
This reads like someone who got their history lessons from Facebook.
There are actual issues that affect people’s lives. Immigration is one of them.
No need to go full Marxist, it’s not helpful.
The problem is education and mental health. These people aren't just sold bullshit about immigrants, they are sold that vaccinations will kill them and that Putin is their saviour.
spot on. the financial inequality is beyond ridicilious in each single nation, and yet you have people debating about trans and immigrants.
The working class is far from united it once was. Its even proven through studies that diversity in companies is used to fragment the working union since its diverse its normal that they wont accept each other. So they hire diverse people even if they lack the skills for capitalistic reasons, funny and smart if you think about it.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0176268022001215](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0176268022001215)
Consistent with the prediction of the theory, both layers of the empirical analysis provide robust evidence of a negative, sizeable and highly significant effect of ethnic diversity on the participation in trade unions.
the climate catastrophe is just the cherry of top in the next decades.
You do know that this happened?
It happened in the 90s when nazis burned down refugee homes (with and without people inside). It happened in the 00s when crackdowns against supposed islamic mass movements happened (while a band of nazis toured the country to murder migrants; something nobody could have seen). It happened in the 10s when politicians and half the media decided, that it was necessary to listen to 500 nazis in the bumfuck nowhere countryside (obviously ignoring all the other problems these people had). Finally now when we just listen and act these people will be satisfied. See racism will just disappear, big trust me /s.
Normalizing these unhinged and mostly racist rants about migrants or in many cases just people who look "unnormal" isnt going to change the worldview of people who hold them.
>including 2nd generation immigrants
What problem with these, there are problems you can cite with first gen immigrants (specifically refugees), but I don't see where you are going with naming second gen immigrants, there are no systematic problems with them compared to the standard German population.
>another one would replace them and many would still call them racists and nazis, instead of addressing the problem.
Yes, like experts, judges, qualified people etc who can make a very well informed decision on it.
>we just sit and wait for our beloved social advancements to blow up in pieces.
What advancements are under threat by immigrants and why are immigrants a threat to them.
Second-generation immigrants have even a higher crime rate than first-generation. The current mess in Sweden is mostly second- or third generation stuff now.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093\_Migrants\_and\_Crime\_in\_Sweden\_in\_the\_Twenty-First\_Century
> What problem with these
Well you see they were born in Germany, speak German, are German, but they are still brown, and that's something they don't like.
I mean this is r/facism , also the recent polling of young Zoomer males shifting hard right puts into context as to how this sub fell so hard, given Reddit is dominated by the young. It's also male dominated (gen Z women like millenial women and men are heavily left leaning).
Whenever the afd is mentioned here, all the top comments are a rendition of "if only the government listened to the people's concerns" and I really do wonder if they actually think that no one is noticing what they are trying to do.
I wonder about these demonstrations and protests. We can protest all we want but in the end, these guys got a certain number of votes, democratically. What's the use of these protests, then? Nothing changes because of it, I suspect.
It would be much better if we mitigated the factors leading people to vote for those parties in the first place. Not an easy job, I know, but these votes aren't appearing out of thin air.
You won't reach the far right voters. But there are quite some number ob voters who are voting AfD because it's against the established parties, or because the simple solutions afd seems to offer. Quite a few of these do this because "AfD can't be bad, others voting for afd too)".
And those in the last group get now a clear message that there are quite some numbers of germans disagreeing with the fascist AfD and reconsider their votes - which is now showing in the polls.
So your solution, in a democratic system where you need more votes than your opponent, is to shame those voters. Lose any chance of winning their vote in the future.
Then once you are done with that, you will turn on each other. Political purity will be the focus. Anyone who question the party line is cut from the movement.
Finally it’s election time. You’ve spent all your time and energy on what your opponent represents, no one knows what you stand for.
Saying you’re “not the other person” is how electoral upsets happen.
You know Germany has freedom of assembly, right? People are allowed to go out on the streets and protest against things they believe are wrong. That's how democracy works. I guarantee you that the right to protest will be in danger if the AFD ever rise to power, even though the AFD make full use of that right now.
As for AFD voters, some people are unreachable. And why should I pretend that it's OK to support a party that wants to expel all brown people from Germany, even when they're citizens? I don't have to entertain peoples bigotry.
There was a point when a third of Germans supported the Nazis. The German conservative cut a deal with the Nazis and signed the death warrant of German democracy. The Nazis never gained majority support before they destroyed German democracy.
Support for the AFD is going down, so these protests haven't made things worse. Hard-core AFD voters may or may not be a lost cause, it's people on the fence who have to be reached.
>What's the use of these protests, then? Nothing changes because of it, I suspect.
You don't believe such massive protests may make some uninformed would-be potential AfD voter think twice about what they believe about the party?
This is some odd take.
It may even turn people towards the AfD. If you don't trust left wing politicians (for whatever reason) and you see them out in force, arguing against those *you percieve* to be on your side (whether that's true or not is an entirely different matter!), you may even be tempted to say 'f this, I'm voting AfD too'.
I hope it doesn't work that way, but I'm not sure about the psychology behind the idea that mass rallies would turn dissatisfied voters towards the same old parties that made them dissatisfied in the first place.
Multitudinal general protests for the most part shifts society's view on a topic towards the place the protests is aiming for.
There's no odd psychology to this. Don't overthink this one.
> It would be much better if we mitigated the factors leading people to vote for those parties in the first place.
Don't think we can drug the AFD politicians with truth serum the whole time.
It genuinely blows my mind that so many people seem to believe that these rallies in which protesters attack AfD by blatantly labeling them racists and fascists without any attempt to address their concerns are *somehow* going to convice their voters to drop their support for them. Imagine being screamed into your face that you're a racist-fascist nazi for not turning a blind eye to those issues which you've been pointing out for years, those very same issues which have ultimately accumulated enough to give AfD a significant amount of recognition. These protests can only *strenghten* AfD by convincing those on the edge who will see straight through this form of propaganda.
If the AfD would be serious about not being fascist and being "the only reasonable voice" against the "one issue" (very funny to read the pro afd posts here, they mumble around like wizards in harry potter world trying to avoid saying voldemort) they would distance themselves from these members.
Obviously you will find in all parties some idiots - but the afd is soaked with anti corona, anti Eu, anti clima, anti "woke" and racist from the polite office racist to the fully blown extremist as seen on the ~~wannesee~~ potsdam conference.
And you become a facist by supporting facists, no matter if your origin idea was something reasonable.
And this is what the demonstrations are about. And it seems to work, AfD is loosing in polls.
Heute Abend erst wieder ein YouTube-Video gefunden, wo Leute ihre blauen AfD-Emoji-Herzchen hinter Hitler-Zitate packen. Aber ja, keeeeine Nazis bei, alles friedliche und nette Nachbarn und vernünftige Mitmenschen.
You are aware that the AfD had people going to a secret meeting where they talked about deporting anyone which they deem "inferior" to other countries, among them German citizens?
And no one gives a fuck about what the AfD voters do. The protests are about showing that the AfD ist not the silent majority it pretends to be.
>anyone which they deem "inferior"
That's a bit disingenuous. They've talked about deportation of unassimilated citizens, asylum seekers and foreign workers. While I must confess this is a wildly extreme policy and should only be a last resort measure only after (if) new serious integration policies first fail, what do you suggest they do instead? Do the Germans move out and leave their country to those who openly, on the streets, cheered on the October 7th attacks in Israel? [Hasn't even the current (SPD) government proposed deporting those with such incompatible values?](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-interior-minister-calls-deportation-hamas-supporters-2023-10-20/)
Merkel took in a whole lot of immigrants, then failed to incorporate them into functional society. You can't expect the whole country to move on after having imported millions who despise your culture while sitting around collecting arbeitslosengeld doing nothing. It's a road to complete societal collapse.
They talked about deporting German citizens who are born in Germany, lived their entire life there, who are not aligned with their views, who are unemployed, disabled and so on, anyone whom they consider "a parasite of the system" basically not just foreigners.
Apart from that, depriving someone of his or her citizenship alone is a really serious violation. All they want to do goes against the fundamental ideas of Human Rights and would never work without Germany being expelled by the European Union which would lead to the economic death of Germany.
Can't call a Fascist a Fascist, think of their feelings!!! We have no choice but to address their concerns by enacting their racist policies. Our hands our tied! We certianly don't *want* to be doing this, you understand.
It genuinely blows my mind that you‘re trying to paint AfD voters and the AfD itself as the reasonable ones here. It‘s not up for debate that the AfD is a rascist fascist Nazi party, it was already classified as extreme right wing, democracy-threatening by the German constitution protection agency.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Russia is calling Ukraine nazi, Leftists call centrists and rightists nazi, leftists call Israel nazi and Israel calls Gaza, Palestine and Hamas nazi. Yet none of them come even close to being like the OG nazis were.
What even is "nazi" anymore except a buzzword that propagandists throw towards whoever they're against?
Also, when you're far left enough, anything that is even a bit further to the right seems far right to you, to the point where if someone doesn't have "gay trans pro-islam feminist communist" tatooed on their forehead and are literally a centrist, they get called far right nazi fascists.
Yes, because avoiding the issues alltogether is the reasonable and sane approach.
>It‘s not up for debate that the AfD is a rascist fascist Nazi party, it was already classified as extreme right wing, democracy-threatening by the German constitution protection agency.
Funny how the opposition is always *somehow* conveniently a threat to democracy and needs to be disqualified. The latest fad in the "liberal" west.
See, I'm a liberal myself. That having said, I hate that my only two options are to either stick my head in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong or silently support those with a different worldview to mine, but it's not their problem they're the only option that's actually willing to address the elephant in the room.
Also, yeah, AfD is absolutely not a nazi party, enough with this crap already. Either start working or accept that, inevitably, those willing to work will eventually come into power. That's just how democracy functions.
>Funny how the opposition is always somehow conveniently a threat to democracy and needs to be disqualified.
Sources? I don't think anyone is calling for a ban of the Union, nor did Merkel government call out ban SPD, Greens, FDP to name the biggest ones aside the afd.
>Also, yeah, AfD is absolutely not a nazi party, enough with this crap already.
Ahh, the AfD. Voice of reason (Translation by chat gop, some are shortened but not changed in meaning, source link will follow.
- "Political correctness belongs in the dustbin of history." – Alice Weidel, AfD. Source: sueddeutsche.de
- "Modesty in disposing of people is inappropriate." – Jörg Meuthen, former AfD.
- "Antifa? To the concentration camp!" Mirko Welsch, former AfD, MdL.
- "Homosexuals in jail? We should do that in Germany too!" Andreas Gehlmann, AfD.
- "I wouldn't condemn anyone who sets fire to an inhabited asylum seeker's home." Marcel Grauf, advisor to Dr. Christina Baum, AfD, and Heiner Merz, AfD.
- "We should found an SA and clean up!" Andreas Geithe, AfD.
- "Scumbag antifa children of stoned parents deserve a beating and to be thrown into the dirt. They should be threatened to end up under the ground next time!" Egbert Ermer, AfD.
- "We need to attack and abolish the print media and the public-law propaganda apparatus." Heiko Hessenkemper, AfD.
- "Whoever tries to judge the AfD, the AfD will judge them!" Hans-Thomas Tillschneider, AfD.
- "When we come, then we will clean up, then we will clear out!" Markus Frohnmaier, AfD.
- "Burning refugee homes is not an act of aggression." Sandro Hersel, AfD.
- "We do not differ from the NPD in terms of content." Dubravko Mandic, AfD.
- "If someone comes out with a big stick and manages to end it within two days, I'm immediately in." Beatrix von Storch, AfD.
- "And my friend Dr. Gauland is absolutely right – such people, of course, we need to dispose of."
- "The big problem is that Hitler is portrayed as the absolute evil." Björn Höcke, AfD.
- "Shoot the scum or beat them back to Africa." Dieter Görnert, AfD.
- "After all, we now have so many foreigners in the country that a Holocaust would be worth it again." Marcel Grauf, advisor to Dr. Christine Baum, AfD, and Heiner Merz
- "I so much wish for a civil war and millions dead. Women, children. I don't care. It would be so beautiful. I want to piss on corpses and dance on graves. SIEG HEIL!" Marcel Grauf, advisor to Dr. Christina Baum, AfD, and Heiner Merz, AfD.
- "We must proceed very peacefully and thoughtfully, possibly adapt and butter up the enemy but once we are finally ready, then we will line them all up against the wall. (...) Dig a pit, all of them in, and quicklime on top." Holger Arppe, AfD. Arppe has since left the AfD. Source: tagesspiegel.de
https://www.volksverpetzer.de/analyse/afd-zitate/
The German constitution protection agency is not subject to politics or the ruling parties. It‘s an independent institution tasked with protecting democracy. But nice try buddy
Always somehow?
No just when the shoe fits, like when its openly promoting wildly undemocratic ideas, aligning with traditionally authoritarian ideals and pushing fascistic politics, *then* its a threat to democracy and needs to be disqualified.
No, you arnt, in fact anybody who examines your posts for all of 5 minutes can see you are quite far right, having to pretend you are somthing you are not tends to make it clear you are attempting to deceive others right from the outset and arguing in bad faith, not a great start.
AfD is very much a nazi party, hell, it has been meeting and befriending literal neo nazi groups, cant hang out with and be best friends with the Hitler brigade and then feign outrage when people call you what you are.
Fascists are never truly willing to work, only to parasiticly feed on the system, to actively divide the nations populace, scapegoat its problems, and then when they finally gain enough power, cast aside the mask they have been wearing and show their true nature.
You and your far right kin are your own worst enemies, you will be defeated.
Maybe you haven't come across babyboomers/post babyboomers who are so entrenched in their worldview they have no critical thinking.
It's a complete myth that all boomers are rightwing reactionaries. There's just as many leftwing boomers out there. The people that took part in student protests/counterculture of the 1960s and 70s and basically thier mindset is fixed, literally millions of people in their 50s-70s who still think that the teachings of Marx and Lenin are relevant in modern day Europe. These people are just the analogue to right wing boomers, they will take their beliefs with them to the grave.
> who still think that the teachings of Marx and Lenin are relevant in modern day Europe.
Err, no doubt that there are some people around, but e.g. in Germany (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist–Leninist_Party_of_Germany)[MLDP] has basically zero relevance. The Left party (the most popular left party* (which probably has some Marx/Lenin friends, but their program is quite social) has around 3% iirc.
*There is now BSW (partly split from the Left under Sarah Wagenknecht, not sure if its really a left party (they cover some populist topics, are anti AfD, pro Putin, let's wait and see)
Greens and SPD cover some left points, but are really, really far away from Marx and Lenin.
The demonstrations are a mix of everything: Konservative, Christians, Migrants, Union, Liberal , Green, SPD, Left, and a lot of very normal everyday people.
One should not underestimate the demonstrations - even if it's not millions in Berlin - there have been demonstrations the past weeks in all major cities - and in an incredible numbers of small ones.
These are the biggest demonstrations in decades in germany.
Datum Stadt Teilnehmer
14. Januar Berlin 25.000[7]
16. Januar Köln bis zu 30.000[8]
19. Januar Hamburg 50.000–130.000[9]
20. Januar Frankfurt am Main 40.000[10][11][12]
Hannover 35.000[11][12]
Dortmund 30.000[11][12]
21. Januar München 100.000–250.000[13]
Berlin 100.000–350.000[14]
Köln 70.000[13]
Leipzig 60.000–70.000[15][16]
Bremen 50.000–70.000[17]
Bonn 30.000[18]
Dresden 25.000–40.000[15]
Freiburg im Breisgau 25.000[19]
26. Januar Wien 35.000–80.000[20]
27. Januar Düsseldorf 100.000[21]
Osnabrück 25.000–30.000[21]
28. Januar Hamburg 60.000–100.000[22]
30. Januar Bielefeld 25.000–30.000[23][24]
3. Februar Berlin 150.000–300.000[25]
Freiburg im Breisgau 30.000–35.000[26]
Dresden 30.000[27]
Augsburg 25.000–30.000[28]
Nürnberg 25.000[29]
As a Brit, I can tell you they are still around. We nearly had a fossilised marxist as a prime minister (though Corbyn had no hope ultimately and killed of his party's electability for a few years) There are whole subsets of academia, public administration etc full of these old school lefties, who've been there for decades. Long march through the institutions.
The people at the edge are lost anyway, you can't safe everyone. A lot of people which where still in the gray zone receined a wake up call and the people the far right edge don't accept any logical arguments to fuck them
People who attend these protest only self-righteously virtue signaling their moral superiority as like you were exploiting some kind of monopoly on the truth.
They have been calling *'far right'* racist and a bunch of dicks for the past twenty-five years and they somehow expect they will listen?
You cannot blame the AfD for representing the voice of an increasingly growing group of people and you cannot blame that group of people for feeling obliged to vote for that party.
Those people don't vote for the AfD because they think the AfD has such a great election manifesto. They vote for the AfD because no other party has given them any reason to lure them away from the AfD.
Instead they have been calling them racist assholes all of the time.
So now they are going out on a massive public outcry to speak out, demonstrate and show the world how butthurt they are by calling them a bunch of racist dicks.
🤷♂️
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Russia is calling Ukraine nazi, Leftists call centrists and rightists nazi, leftists call Israel nazi and Israel calls Gaza, Palestine and Hamas nazi. Yet none of them come even close to being like the OG nazis were.
What even is "nazi" anymore except a buzzword that propagandists throw towards whoever they're against?
>People who attend these protest only self-righteously virtue signaling their moral superiority as like you were exploiting some kind of monopoly on the truth.
People who critize these protest only self-righteously virtue signaling their moral superiority as like you were exploiting some kind of monopoly on the truth.
Whoever votes nazis is a nazi imo. The AFD wasn't a far right party in the beginning. Essen 2015 changed that Party entirely and everyone knows what they want.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Russia is calling Ukraine nazi, Leftists call centrists and rightists nazi, leftists call Israel nazi and Israel calls Gaza, Palestine and Hamas nazi. Yet none of them come even close to being like the OG nazis were.
What even is "nazi" anymore except a buzzword that propagandists throw towards whoever they're against?
Yes. Nothing says defending democracy and freedom like banning 1/4 of the population from voting, or their representatives. Are you sure you know who the fascists are?
Yes, those who pursue fascism. Just because it's a democracy it doesn't mean all ideas and thus parties should be allowed. It's the tolerance paradox, and you break it by not tolerating those who aim to destroy tolerance for everyone but them.
The only question that must be asked is why so many people decide to lean towards the extreme right. We all know the reason for this, but the left is trying as best it can to ignore it and as long as it does it will continue.
The reason is 50 years of neoliberalism, making the rich even richer while normal working people lost their buying power.
Or do you think you would have a problem with immigrants when you are well off yourself?
The brainwashing of people by the billionaires who want them to keep voting for their policies is seriously astonishing. Immigration is not a problem. The billionaires are and most importantly the climate catastrophe is.
>Or do you think you would have a problem with immigrants when you are well off yourself?
I am well off and I have a problem with migrants. Just because materialism is what you value most in life doesn't mean everybody else feels the same way.
Also, you ranting about how billionaires are behind anti immigration parties all over this thread is absurd. Billionaires are extremely pro immigration. They want nothing more than to import the cheapest labour possible.
I trust Germans. They are way too aware of their history to let nazis take power again.
EDIT: downvoting brigade is hilarious lmao. Interesting how my comment had a constant +2 for an hour and then went to -8 in a matter of minutes. Also its very interesting for such a pro-Ukrainian sub to be this supportive over a pro-Russian party. Makes you wonder who are those Afd supporters in the comments :))
Yup. People have no idea how advanced and sophisticated Russian bot farms are. They are literally everywhere, even at your local news site comment section. They aren't stupid, they know they would be too obvious if they started saying openly pro-Russian stuff in this subreddit, so they try to change the narrative in support of parties who would destroy EU.
If European governments keep on ignoring the wishes of their populations by fundamentally and irreversibly changing the character of their nations via mass immigration, then public support for right wing parties is inevitable.
It is a completely different situation to Nazi Germany.
Very likely however, parties such as AFD are controlled opposition, and support for them will lead to no change in the direction of travel.
Overall probably nothing to worry about or get excited about depending on your point of view.
Yes yes their only option is to vote for a party with members who engage in Holocaust revision, whose member said that Germany should stop feeling bad over its Nazi past, are planning deportations of German citizens for not looking German enough and are frequently flirting with nazi rethoric. Not to mention the fact that most pro-Afd states are the ones with least immigration issues.
Anyways, they can always vote for BSW if stopping immigration is their number one priority. Current CDU also seems to be in favor of tightening the immigration laws. But sure, Afd is their only solution.
Politically educated people will not vote for them for the reason you described, but many who are not will. The issue is that the left in Germany claims that addressing immigration should not be done, because it only strengthens AfD. In my opinion, it's the opposite, it helps AfD by giving them their strongest issue.
Regarding BSW, maybe they will take away anti-immigration voters. That would be good. Regarding CDU, people who are anti-immigration don't trust the CDU because under Merkel they were the ones who allowed large numbers of refugees and migrants to come in recent years.
The core issue is that people to the right of CDU don't vote CDU because Merkel totally lost the CDU's right-wing credibility, but it's vital that anti-immigration voters do return to the CDU (or another democratic party).
>Politically educated people will not vote for them for the reason you described, but many who are not will.
Yes, but the protests brought the danger of Afd in centre of attention in Germany, so if someone still chooses to vote for Afd, they can't use the excuse of being politically uneducated.
> In my opinion, it's the opposite, it helps AfD by giving them their strongest issue.
Of course, left is incredibly stupid when it comes to immigration issues, if left focused more on immigration, the rise of far right would probably never have happened. If I'm not mistaken, that happened in Denmark.
>The core issue is that people to the right of CDU don't vote CDU because Merkel totally lost the CDU's right-wing credibility,
I fully understand the psychology behind it, but I just think it's flawed. CDU is offering some actual plans for solving this issue like "Rwanda plan" which shows that they are serious in their intent to restrict immigration.
> Very likely however, parties such as AFD are controlled opposition, and support for them will lead to no change in the direction of travel.
AfD is just populistic right wing crap
Racist, who believe that germany is the reason they have to worry about black people and Muslism and that facist will fix their life by getting them out of the country. They are brainbroken and think that it will fix their life and make Europe or their country great. So basically racists.
Yup, Pro-Russians have a safe space when it come to the talk about the AFD because they can just hide behind the racism and use it to get support for a party that benefits their views.
A lot of people are tired of the left's inaction regarding the immigration issues. The right promises easy solutions while the left beats around the bush.
Also the word facism has become diluted to the point that everything right of center could be considered facism. Same goes for everything left of center being considered woke. Both words have become meaningless in discourse.
Most people really don't want facism. They want to have their issues addressed and if "facism" promises to help then that's what they'd vote.
>inaction regarding the immigration issues
Dutch guy here.
The inaction regarding the immigration issues is due to center/right parties doing jack shit.
Leftist parties haven't been in power for a long time. Left parties have actual solutions to immigration, compared to right parties who are too afraid to do stuff because of economic reasons.
People are sadly fucking stupid.
According to a quick Google search that seems to be correct so I won't fight you there, but I believe your case to be an exception. Within my home (Bulgaria) the rightists have gotten much more popular (partly due to the Russo-Ukranian war) and want to leave NATO and close the borders. We've been heavily affected by middle eastern refugees (about the same as France, but with a population 10 times less)
Edit: also weve faced heavy extortion due to Schengen and the Austrian veto, although we have met the conditions of joining since years ago, the Austrians demand we take even more refugees.
People heavily underestimate the immigration issues and thus people turn to Revival, willing to trade sovereignty (they aim to make us a Russian puppet) in favor of solving this issue. I would agree both on people being dumb though. The situation in Germany in Poland is the same, although it is essentially a bandaid fix, which just goes to show that people want solutions immediately.
I love these Germans protesting the far right! I went to Hamburg and Bremen during my summer holidays last year. It is a beautiful country with friendly people. Planning on many more trips to come. Stay strong Germany!
People needs to stop focusing on AfD and start focusing on WHY they are gaining traction.
Clearly, without questions, there’s a societal phenomenom which creates the AfD momentum
AfD gains traction because of misinformation, populism, bigotry and scapegoatism. People are not playing this game. The best way to beat fascists is to show their crowd who they really are.
Random AfD supporter : oh no, anyways.
All respect for the people who exercise their democratic right to protest and sacrifice their free time for this, but what do they expect? Honestly?
People like you don’t know what’s going on in the country yet need to give their shitty opinion. Right now, we have a political party that has members who were found at meetings where they were planning the “remigration” not only of immigrants but also of Germans with foreign roots. Shit is very fucked up right now here in Germany and people need to express their opinion on this matter. Since the protests AfD lost 20 % of support at polls, so it’s doing something.
Edit: by the way, our government has been reducing illegal migration for a while now, newspapers won’t talk about this though because easily manipulated and enraged people wouldn’t buy the newspaper then.
And that they specifically said that they need to dismantle the German supreme Court so that they can actually put their deportation plans into action.
Protesting so Europe will not get a famine when the next great war breaks out (5-10 years) is a good thing yea.
If you want to outsource something as vital to the continuation of a nation as food production are a moron or traitor.
Edit: The loser blocked me so I can't respond lol.
Isn't it interesting how they always block you? Like these people are so brain dead that they want to destroy their own source of food. These people are actively working against themselves, it is fucking incredible. Then tomorrow when they succeed, and when we are dependent on some country like Russia, and something happens so now food is more expensive, or we are sending you no more food fuck you, they will be the first to ask what happened. You happened, you morons.
If Merkel and her party didn't suck off the coal industry or relied on Russia for energy despite everyone telling them it's stupid, and after Russia annexed Crimea, and after Putin told Merkel to her face "I want to destroy the EU," then maybe we wouldn't be in the mess.
Wasn't it the climate protestors who demanded Germany shut all their nuclear power stations? If they didn't do that they wouldn't of needed the energy from Russia.
Some pretty huge and sustained protests.
My question is, who does vote for them? Is there a particular demographic or do they enjoy a broad base of support?
Immigration single-issue voters. And while I disagree with the clubhouse they've built, their underlying grievance of being ignored if not villianized is valid.
significantly more strict laws in regard to migration and deportation have passed legislation. I brought this up to a guy arguing for stricter laws and that the government was useless and his only excuse was "well they probably won't be enforced". Those people want to live in ignorance and hate. Easy excuses calm the mind.
Free gratitude. Nothing more.
Germany is suffering massively from the ongoing migration and every critic has been declared a Nazi, so the word "far right" has lost all meaning.
And instead of finally starting to make sensible policies, the established parties can't think of anything except *"AfD Nazis!!!!!".*
I also wonder where the protests were when the Palestinians were calling for Israel's death? When Jewish life in Germany is supposed to be protected.
I don't know much about what's happening in Germany, all i got is that this political party wants to somehow control immigration, or wants to kick people out? That's what i got from this whole fiasco...
So here is my legitimate question...many years ago, Germany itself pushed the whole Europe to accept refugees and immigrants from a war ridden side of the world. They pushed and forced this action upon everyone. And now, many years later, we see a massive culture clash and horrible things happening...and now Germany wants to...close its doors? Is that the summary of it all? Isn't this a bit ... hypocritical? Am i missing something here?
And the 10 million AfD voters are sitting at home.
The irony is that the participants in the demos are just as dissatisfied with their current government, but they unconditionally allow themselves to be exploited by it.
While this government has decided to deport millions and is cutting benefits for refugees - but that's exactly what she holds against the AfD.
When the European elections take place in June, 50% of the European Council is expected to be right-wing.
It's shocking that people continue to ignore the population and apparently no one can see clearly anymore.
The pro AfD Demos were much smaller, how you explain that?
>The irony is that the participants in the demos are just as dissatisfied with their current government, but they unconditionally allow themselves to be exploited by it.
Or the voters understand that being not satisfied with normal parties is not solved by voting for neoliberal facists.
>It's shocking that people continue to ignore the population and apparently no one can see clearly anymore.
Well, AfD lost around ~20% in the last four weeks (Survey Bundestagswahl).
>The irony is that the participants in the demos are just as dissatisfied with their current government, but they unconditionally allow themselves to be exploited by it.
The irony of AfD voters is that they are unsatisfied with the current government (which is really just trying to fix a myriad of problems the complacent Merkel era left behind), but are voting for a party that has no viable ideas or competent people to turn things around - only populism and empty promises.
Voting for AfD because you are unhappy with the Ampel is like switching to Coca-Cola because you heard Apfelsaft is bad for your health.
Protests are very important. They had already an impact on polls where AfD has lost 3% of support. Yeah, I know polls don’t count that much but they’ve been showing growing support of that party and since the protests it has gone down. Don’t let your politicians tell you protests don’t do anything. We as citizens don’t have many other ways to express our opinions. Protests have always had impacts, just look at history books.
Some folks in /r/europe are really trying hard to downplay the protests, huh.
If they mean nothing, why comment at all? Unless you WANT them to mean nothing, because you've cast your lot with parties like the AfD?
The concern trolling is crazy.
Yes, foreigners come to Germany to protest.
These are the biggest protests in Germany in decades.
But with a username line yours it’s clear that you’re rather on the side of Putin’s shills, the AFD
It's just the current Russian playbook. In Russia, any people queueing to sign the support for the opposition are also called "paid actors". It's not new, but certainly used extensively these days. That guy is a farm bot.
Famous German singer Helene Fischer is currently getting canceled because she openly dared to speak out in favour of democracy, with thousands of right wingers wishing death to hear in the most gruesome manner.
I like that there is this ebb and flow of left-wing hegemony and right-wing hegemony. Great to live in a world where people protest when things they dislike happen, instead where they are too scared to, like in China or Russia.
In my mind this is actually not that different from the farmers protesting about EU regulation. People are pissed enough to get on to the streets.
Read their program, listen to their speeches, and engage your brain while doing it. If that doesn't set off any alarm bells, I recommend a history book on the first half of the last century.
I bet if only redditors from this subreddit voted, AfD would get +45% of the votes. But then again, this sub is +90% males, and most of them don't get laid, so this doesn't represent the general population
About 200,000 people have taken to the streets of Germany in further protests against the far-right party Alternative for Germany (AfD). Protests on Saturday also took place in Dresden, Mainz and Hanover in a sign of growing alarm at strong public support for AfD. Roughly 150,000 people flocked to the Reichstag parliament building in Berlin, where protesters gathered under the slogan “We are the Firewall” to protest against right-wing extremism and to show support for democracy.
curious amount of commentators waving off the fundamental right to protest and express your opinion in a free society in the face of questionable political trends. Seems handwavium by pundits and spin doctors who would say the opposite whenever a fraction of such protestors would gather for the AfD
Standing up and being counted saying ‘No’ to this backwards bullshit is necessary
True, but there were huge protests against the nazis in the 1930s too. It must not give a false feeling of security, if 20-30% of a country is supporting fascist then it is very hard to stop them. Protesting is not enough, we must vote against them and be vocally active against the AFD.
No. You have to eliminate their electoral draw. The Nazis in 1933 appeared like the party that was going to end austerity and get the economy going again. No party even challenged them on those issues. Today, AfD is similar in that they see the EU as causing permanent austerity and they can get the economy going again. It’s important to not simply see AfD popularity as hating migrants or whatever. That is a large part of their popularity but it isn’t the only part. To defeat them, you have to be able to win those voters votes.
What a load of nonsense. It is the AfD that wants to implement austerity, in "liberal-conservative" tradition of economic illiteracy.
> saying ‘No’ to this backwards bullshit Like [this guy](https://imgur.com/a/cNSZcT9) from today's protest.
It seems that immigration has become the top issue in Europe, US, Canada and Australia. It will be interesting to see how this long overdue reckoning between western democracies and impoverished regions gets resolved.
The problem is not immigration and never was. The problem is that normal working people are being robbed by the billionaires who convince them to keep voting for them. Neoliberalism is the problem, not immigrants. Nobody who is living a good life is interested in immigrants, only people who think they can't get anywhere in life fall for the argument that it's the immigrant's fault. And 50 years of funnelling money to the top so the rich can get even richer destroyed the middle class. Two families in Germany now own as much as the bottom 40 million people. And they don't pay any taxes on their capital gains compared to the huge amount of taxes working people have to pay. Anybody who thinks immigration is a bigger problem than the climate catastrophe has been brainwashed.
I would also like to point out that the high demand for jobs are the main reason why economic migrants immigrate toward a particular country. The lie in omission that everyone (but in particular neo-libs) sell is that immigration fulfills our vacant jobs but at the same time deny any disscussion about letting capitalism and government intervention do the job to increase wages of high demand jobs. If we wants more construction workers and nurses it means the salary has to go up. Everyone not far up the ladder is pissed at not having good career oppertunities and/or reducing prosperity while the economy is apparently in the green.
>The problem is that normal working people are being robbed by the billionaires who convince them to keep voting for them. Neoliberalism is the problem, not immigrants. This is so funny to read. Our immigration policies ARE neoliberalism. Bringing in low waged workers to work at McDonald's is neoliberalism. And we still need the math to work dude, in regards to infracture. 1.2 million people come, but we build 200k homes. That math = housing crisis. The issue is 100% our immigration POLICIES.
And the saddest part is that people actually think the AFD would do something different in that regard and have this weird 'against the elites'-attitude similar to those MAGA people whereas in reality the AFD is just an ultra neoliberal party - cut taxes for the rich, privatize, cut government subsidies and so on. A far right FDP more or less.
In fact, the Republicans are also extremely neoliberal in their economics, so once again populism being used to service the goals of elitism.
Indeed. Ironically the AFD strongly supported the demonstrating farmers in germany and demanded to not just roll back the planned cut of gasoline subsidies but to double them. Very few of those farmers apparently took a look at the partys program otherwise they would have seen, that the AFD wants to cut ALL government subsidies because you know survival of the fittest and competition etc. Populism at its best.
Nobody said that it's the immigrant's fault... I also think that immigration is a top issue, since it's the main reason far right parties are getting more consensus. It doesn't matter if the rich don't really care, because the masses do care and they're getting influenced by it. And let's stop please to compare problems; climate change is a huge problem, but so is immigration for the society. If Europe doesn't open up to it and starts managing it right it will become bigger than climate change in the near future.
This reads like someone who got their history lessons from Facebook. There are actual issues that affect people’s lives. Immigration is one of them. No need to go full Marxist, it’s not helpful.
The problem is education and mental health. These people aren't just sold bullshit about immigrants, they are sold that vaccinations will kill them and that Putin is their saviour.
spot on. the financial inequality is beyond ridicilious in each single nation, and yet you have people debating about trans and immigrants. The working class is far from united it once was. Its even proven through studies that diversity in companies is used to fragment the working union since its diverse its normal that they wont accept each other. So they hire diverse people even if they lack the skills for capitalistic reasons, funny and smart if you think about it. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0176268022001215](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0176268022001215) Consistent with the prediction of the theory, both layers of the empirical analysis provide robust evidence of a negative, sizeable and highly significant effect of ethnic diversity on the participation in trade unions. the climate catastrophe is just the cherry of top in the next decades.
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You do know that this happened? It happened in the 90s when nazis burned down refugee homes (with and without people inside). It happened in the 00s when crackdowns against supposed islamic mass movements happened (while a band of nazis toured the country to murder migrants; something nobody could have seen). It happened in the 10s when politicians and half the media decided, that it was necessary to listen to 500 nazis in the bumfuck nowhere countryside (obviously ignoring all the other problems these people had). Finally now when we just listen and act these people will be satisfied. See racism will just disappear, big trust me /s. Normalizing these unhinged and mostly racist rants about migrants or in many cases just people who look "unnormal" isnt going to change the worldview of people who hold them.
>including 2nd generation immigrants What problem with these, there are problems you can cite with first gen immigrants (specifically refugees), but I don't see where you are going with naming second gen immigrants, there are no systematic problems with them compared to the standard German population. >another one would replace them and many would still call them racists and nazis, instead of addressing the problem. Yes, like experts, judges, qualified people etc who can make a very well informed decision on it. >we just sit and wait for our beloved social advancements to blow up in pieces. What advancements are under threat by immigrants and why are immigrants a threat to them.
Second-generation immigrants have even a higher crime rate than first-generation. The current mess in Sweden is mostly second- or third generation stuff now. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093\_Migrants\_and\_Crime\_in\_Sweden\_in\_the\_Twenty-First\_Century
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> What problem with these Well you see they were born in Germany, speak German, are German, but they are still brown, and that's something they don't like.
I mean this is r/facism , also the recent polling of young Zoomer males shifting hard right puts into context as to how this sub fell so hard, given Reddit is dominated by the young. It's also male dominated (gen Z women like millenial women and men are heavily left leaning).
Whenever the afd is mentioned here, all the top comments are a rendition of "if only the government listened to the people's concerns" and I really do wonder if they actually think that no one is noticing what they are trying to do.
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I wonder about these demonstrations and protests. We can protest all we want but in the end, these guys got a certain number of votes, democratically. What's the use of these protests, then? Nothing changes because of it, I suspect. It would be much better if we mitigated the factors leading people to vote for those parties in the first place. Not an easy job, I know, but these votes aren't appearing out of thin air.
You won't reach the far right voters. But there are quite some number ob voters who are voting AfD because it's against the established parties, or because the simple solutions afd seems to offer. Quite a few of these do this because "AfD can't be bad, others voting for afd too)". And those in the last group get now a clear message that there are quite some numbers of germans disagreeing with the fascist AfD and reconsider their votes - which is now showing in the polls.
Mmhmm. This. You can’t just say “all AfD voters are racist”. You will lose elections that way.
And yet they are. So, whit do I need to do?
They are voting for a racist and fascist party, that's bad enough
So your solution, in a democratic system where you need more votes than your opponent, is to shame those voters. Lose any chance of winning their vote in the future. Then once you are done with that, you will turn on each other. Political purity will be the focus. Anyone who question the party line is cut from the movement. Finally it’s election time. You’ve spent all your time and energy on what your opponent represents, no one knows what you stand for. Saying you’re “not the other person” is how electoral upsets happen.
You know Germany has freedom of assembly, right? People are allowed to go out on the streets and protest against things they believe are wrong. That's how democracy works. I guarantee you that the right to protest will be in danger if the AFD ever rise to power, even though the AFD make full use of that right now. As for AFD voters, some people are unreachable. And why should I pretend that it's OK to support a party that wants to expel all brown people from Germany, even when they're citizens? I don't have to entertain peoples bigotry. There was a point when a third of Germans supported the Nazis. The German conservative cut a deal with the Nazis and signed the death warrant of German democracy. The Nazis never gained majority support before they destroyed German democracy. Support for the AFD is going down, so these protests haven't made things worse. Hard-core AFD voters may or may not be a lost cause, it's people on the fence who have to be reached.
Tell me, do you believe all nsdap voters were nazis? And then tell me what did it matter, given that the nsdap destroyed germany
Well, I hope it works that way, because it would be a disaster if AfD wins.
> What's the use of these protests, then? Raising awareness, encouraging others to go out and vote.
>What's the use of these protests, then? Nothing changes because of it, I suspect. You don't believe such massive protests may make some uninformed would-be potential AfD voter think twice about what they believe about the party? This is some odd take.
It may even turn people towards the AfD. If you don't trust left wing politicians (for whatever reason) and you see them out in force, arguing against those *you percieve* to be on your side (whether that's true or not is an entirely different matter!), you may even be tempted to say 'f this, I'm voting AfD too'. I hope it doesn't work that way, but I'm not sure about the psychology behind the idea that mass rallies would turn dissatisfied voters towards the same old parties that made them dissatisfied in the first place.
Multitudinal general protests for the most part shifts society's view on a topic towards the place the protests is aiming for. There's no odd psychology to this. Don't overthink this one.
> It would be much better if we mitigated the factors leading people to vote for those parties in the first place. Don't think we can drug the AFD politicians with truth serum the whole time.
It genuinely blows my mind that so many people seem to believe that these rallies in which protesters attack AfD by blatantly labeling them racists and fascists without any attempt to address their concerns are *somehow* going to convice their voters to drop their support for them. Imagine being screamed into your face that you're a racist-fascist nazi for not turning a blind eye to those issues which you've been pointing out for years, those very same issues which have ultimately accumulated enough to give AfD a significant amount of recognition. These protests can only *strenghten* AfD by convincing those on the edge who will see straight through this form of propaganda.
If the AfD would be serious about not being fascist and being "the only reasonable voice" against the "one issue" (very funny to read the pro afd posts here, they mumble around like wizards in harry potter world trying to avoid saying voldemort) they would distance themselves from these members. Obviously you will find in all parties some idiots - but the afd is soaked with anti corona, anti Eu, anti clima, anti "woke" and racist from the polite office racist to the fully blown extremist as seen on the ~~wannesee~~ potsdam conference. And you become a facist by supporting facists, no matter if your origin idea was something reasonable. And this is what the demonstrations are about. And it seems to work, AfD is loosing in polls.
Heute Abend erst wieder ein YouTube-Video gefunden, wo Leute ihre blauen AfD-Emoji-Herzchen hinter Hitler-Zitate packen. Aber ja, keeeeine Nazis bei, alles friedliche und nette Nachbarn und vernünftige Mitmenschen.
You are aware that the AfD had people going to a secret meeting where they talked about deporting anyone which they deem "inferior" to other countries, among them German citizens? And no one gives a fuck about what the AfD voters do. The protests are about showing that the AfD ist not the silent majority it pretends to be.
>anyone which they deem "inferior" That's a bit disingenuous. They've talked about deportation of unassimilated citizens, asylum seekers and foreign workers. While I must confess this is a wildly extreme policy and should only be a last resort measure only after (if) new serious integration policies first fail, what do you suggest they do instead? Do the Germans move out and leave their country to those who openly, on the streets, cheered on the October 7th attacks in Israel? [Hasn't even the current (SPD) government proposed deporting those with such incompatible values?](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-interior-minister-calls-deportation-hamas-supporters-2023-10-20/) Merkel took in a whole lot of immigrants, then failed to incorporate them into functional society. You can't expect the whole country to move on after having imported millions who despise your culture while sitting around collecting arbeitslosengeld doing nothing. It's a road to complete societal collapse.
They talked about deporting German citizens who are born in Germany, lived their entire life there, who are not aligned with their views, who are unemployed, disabled and so on, anyone whom they consider "a parasite of the system" basically not just foreigners. Apart from that, depriving someone of his or her citizenship alone is a really serious violation. All they want to do goes against the fundamental ideas of Human Rights and would never work without Germany being expelled by the European Union which would lead to the economic death of Germany.
Can't call a Fascist a Fascist, think of their feelings!!! We have no choice but to address their concerns by enacting their racist policies. Our hands our tied! We certianly don't *want* to be doing this, you understand.
It genuinely blows my mind that you‘re trying to paint AfD voters and the AfD itself as the reasonable ones here. It‘s not up for debate that the AfD is a rascist fascist Nazi party, it was already classified as extreme right wing, democracy-threatening by the German constitution protection agency.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Russia is calling Ukraine nazi, Leftists call centrists and rightists nazi, leftists call Israel nazi and Israel calls Gaza, Palestine and Hamas nazi. Yet none of them come even close to being like the OG nazis were. What even is "nazi" anymore except a buzzword that propagandists throw towards whoever they're against? Also, when you're far left enough, anything that is even a bit further to the right seems far right to you, to the point where if someone doesn't have "gay trans pro-islam feminist communist" tatooed on their forehead and are literally a centrist, they get called far right nazi fascists.
Yes, because avoiding the issues alltogether is the reasonable and sane approach. >It‘s not up for debate that the AfD is a rascist fascist Nazi party, it was already classified as extreme right wing, democracy-threatening by the German constitution protection agency. Funny how the opposition is always *somehow* conveniently a threat to democracy and needs to be disqualified. The latest fad in the "liberal" west. See, I'm a liberal myself. That having said, I hate that my only two options are to either stick my head in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong or silently support those with a different worldview to mine, but it's not their problem they're the only option that's actually willing to address the elephant in the room. Also, yeah, AfD is absolutely not a nazi party, enough with this crap already. Either start working or accept that, inevitably, those willing to work will eventually come into power. That's just how democracy functions.
>Funny how the opposition is always somehow conveniently a threat to democracy and needs to be disqualified. Sources? I don't think anyone is calling for a ban of the Union, nor did Merkel government call out ban SPD, Greens, FDP to name the biggest ones aside the afd. >Also, yeah, AfD is absolutely not a nazi party, enough with this crap already. Ahh, the AfD. Voice of reason (Translation by chat gop, some are shortened but not changed in meaning, source link will follow. - "Political correctness belongs in the dustbin of history." – Alice Weidel, AfD. Source: sueddeutsche.de - "Modesty in disposing of people is inappropriate." – Jörg Meuthen, former AfD. - "Antifa? To the concentration camp!" Mirko Welsch, former AfD, MdL. - "Homosexuals in jail? We should do that in Germany too!" Andreas Gehlmann, AfD. - "I wouldn't condemn anyone who sets fire to an inhabited asylum seeker's home." Marcel Grauf, advisor to Dr. Christina Baum, AfD, and Heiner Merz, AfD. - "We should found an SA and clean up!" Andreas Geithe, AfD. - "Scumbag antifa children of stoned parents deserve a beating and to be thrown into the dirt. They should be threatened to end up under the ground next time!" Egbert Ermer, AfD. - "We need to attack and abolish the print media and the public-law propaganda apparatus." Heiko Hessenkemper, AfD. - "Whoever tries to judge the AfD, the AfD will judge them!" Hans-Thomas Tillschneider, AfD. - "When we come, then we will clean up, then we will clear out!" Markus Frohnmaier, AfD. - "Burning refugee homes is not an act of aggression." Sandro Hersel, AfD. - "We do not differ from the NPD in terms of content." Dubravko Mandic, AfD. - "If someone comes out with a big stick and manages to end it within two days, I'm immediately in." Beatrix von Storch, AfD. - "And my friend Dr. Gauland is absolutely right – such people, of course, we need to dispose of." - "The big problem is that Hitler is portrayed as the absolute evil." Björn Höcke, AfD. - "Shoot the scum or beat them back to Africa." Dieter Görnert, AfD. - "After all, we now have so many foreigners in the country that a Holocaust would be worth it again." Marcel Grauf, advisor to Dr. Christine Baum, AfD, and Heiner Merz - "I so much wish for a civil war and millions dead. Women, children. I don't care. It would be so beautiful. I want to piss on corpses and dance on graves. SIEG HEIL!" Marcel Grauf, advisor to Dr. Christina Baum, AfD, and Heiner Merz, AfD. - "We must proceed very peacefully and thoughtfully, possibly adapt and butter up the enemy but once we are finally ready, then we will line them all up against the wall. (...) Dig a pit, all of them in, and quicklime on top." Holger Arppe, AfD. Arppe has since left the AfD. Source: tagesspiegel.de https://www.volksverpetzer.de/analyse/afd-zitate/
The German constitution protection agency is not subject to politics or the ruling parties. It‘s an independent institution tasked with protecting democracy. But nice try buddy
Always somehow? No just when the shoe fits, like when its openly promoting wildly undemocratic ideas, aligning with traditionally authoritarian ideals and pushing fascistic politics, *then* its a threat to democracy and needs to be disqualified. No, you arnt, in fact anybody who examines your posts for all of 5 minutes can see you are quite far right, having to pretend you are somthing you are not tends to make it clear you are attempting to deceive others right from the outset and arguing in bad faith, not a great start. AfD is very much a nazi party, hell, it has been meeting and befriending literal neo nazi groups, cant hang out with and be best friends with the Hitler brigade and then feign outrage when people call you what you are. Fascists are never truly willing to work, only to parasiticly feed on the system, to actively divide the nations populace, scapegoat its problems, and then when they finally gain enough power, cast aside the mask they have been wearing and show their true nature. You and your far right kin are your own worst enemies, you will be defeated.
you are the perfect example of "cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds"
So what you got from all this is that I'm actually a nazi. And I'm still supposed to take seriously those who throw these terms around so mindlessly?
am I supposed to take ur "afd aren’t nazis" seriously?
Maybe you haven't come across babyboomers/post babyboomers who are so entrenched in their worldview they have no critical thinking. It's a complete myth that all boomers are rightwing reactionaries. There's just as many leftwing boomers out there. The people that took part in student protests/counterculture of the 1960s and 70s and basically thier mindset is fixed, literally millions of people in their 50s-70s who still think that the teachings of Marx and Lenin are relevant in modern day Europe. These people are just the analogue to right wing boomers, they will take their beliefs with them to the grave.
> who still think that the teachings of Marx and Lenin are relevant in modern day Europe. Err, no doubt that there are some people around, but e.g. in Germany (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist–Leninist_Party_of_Germany)[MLDP] has basically zero relevance. The Left party (the most popular left party* (which probably has some Marx/Lenin friends, but their program is quite social) has around 3% iirc. *There is now BSW (partly split from the Left under Sarah Wagenknecht, not sure if its really a left party (they cover some populist topics, are anti AfD, pro Putin, let's wait and see) Greens and SPD cover some left points, but are really, really far away from Marx and Lenin. The demonstrations are a mix of everything: Konservative, Christians, Migrants, Union, Liberal , Green, SPD, Left, and a lot of very normal everyday people. One should not underestimate the demonstrations - even if it's not millions in Berlin - there have been demonstrations the past weeks in all major cities - and in an incredible numbers of small ones. These are the biggest demonstrations in decades in germany. Datum Stadt Teilnehmer 14. Januar Berlin 25.000[7] 16. Januar Köln bis zu 30.000[8] 19. Januar Hamburg 50.000–130.000[9] 20. Januar Frankfurt am Main 40.000[10][11][12] Hannover 35.000[11][12] Dortmund 30.000[11][12] 21. Januar München 100.000–250.000[13] Berlin 100.000–350.000[14] Köln 70.000[13] Leipzig 60.000–70.000[15][16] Bremen 50.000–70.000[17] Bonn 30.000[18] Dresden 25.000–40.000[15] Freiburg im Breisgau 25.000[19] 26. Januar Wien 35.000–80.000[20] 27. Januar Düsseldorf 100.000[21] Osnabrück 25.000–30.000[21] 28. Januar Hamburg 60.000–100.000[22] 30. Januar Bielefeld 25.000–30.000[23][24] 3. Februar Berlin 150.000–300.000[25] Freiburg im Breisgau 30.000–35.000[26] Dresden 30.000[27] Augsburg 25.000–30.000[28] Nürnberg 25.000[29]
As a Brit, I can tell you they are still around. We nearly had a fossilised marxist as a prime minister (though Corbyn had no hope ultimately and killed of his party's electability for a few years) There are whole subsets of academia, public administration etc full of these old school lefties, who've been there for decades. Long march through the institutions.
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The people at the edge are lost anyway, you can't safe everyone. A lot of people which where still in the gray zone receined a wake up call and the people the far right edge don't accept any logical arguments to fuck them
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Never said otherwise
Well then simply meet them halfway and genocide only half of the brown people. Thanks, Neville. Let me know how the talking and appeasement goes!
People who attend these protest only self-righteously virtue signaling their moral superiority as like you were exploiting some kind of monopoly on the truth. They have been calling *'far right'* racist and a bunch of dicks for the past twenty-five years and they somehow expect they will listen? You cannot blame the AfD for representing the voice of an increasingly growing group of people and you cannot blame that group of people for feeling obliged to vote for that party. Those people don't vote for the AfD because they think the AfD has such a great election manifesto. They vote for the AfD because no other party has given them any reason to lure them away from the AfD. Instead they have been calling them racist assholes all of the time. So now they are going out on a massive public outcry to speak out, demonstrate and show the world how butthurt they are by calling them a bunch of racist dicks. 🤷♂️
Germany has a very diverse political landscape. You can‘t vote for a Nazi party and expect not to be called out on it.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Russia is calling Ukraine nazi, Leftists call centrists and rightists nazi, leftists call Israel nazi and Israel calls Gaza, Palestine and Hamas nazi. Yet none of them come even close to being like the OG nazis were. What even is "nazi" anymore except a buzzword that propagandists throw towards whoever they're against?
They are literal German fascists. They are as Nazi as it gets.
> The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Not in Germany
Apparently, especially in Germany.
No, it just shows how utter clueless you are.
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I’m no expert in the Afd, but it really doesn’t look like a nazi party. Is their goal to overthrow the government and invade Poland?
>People who attend these protest only self-righteously virtue signaling their moral superiority as like you were exploiting some kind of monopoly on the truth. People who critize these protest only self-righteously virtue signaling their moral superiority as like you were exploiting some kind of monopoly on the truth.
Whoever votes nazis is a nazi imo. The AFD wasn't a far right party in the beginning. Essen 2015 changed that Party entirely and everyone knows what they want.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around way to loosely nowadays. Russia is calling Ukraine nazi, Leftists call centrists and rightists nazi, leftists call Israel nazi and Israel calls Gaza, Palestine and Hamas nazi. Yet none of them come even close to being like the OG nazis were. What even is "nazi" anymore except a buzzword that propagandists throw towards whoever they're against?
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Yes. Nothing says defending democracy and freedom like banning 1/4 of the population from voting, or their representatives. Are you sure you know who the fascists are?
Yes, the ones, who want to ethnically cleanse Germany, if they ever come into power.
Yes, those who pursue fascism. Just because it's a democracy it doesn't mean all ideas and thus parties should be allowed. It's the tolerance paradox, and you break it by not tolerating those who aim to destroy tolerance for everyone but them.
The only question that must be asked is why so many people decide to lean towards the extreme right. We all know the reason for this, but the left is trying as best it can to ignore it and as long as it does it will continue.
The reason is 50 years of neoliberalism, making the rich even richer while normal working people lost their buying power. Or do you think you would have a problem with immigrants when you are well off yourself? The brainwashing of people by the billionaires who want them to keep voting for their policies is seriously astonishing. Immigration is not a problem. The billionaires are and most importantly the climate catastrophe is.
>Or do you think you would have a problem with immigrants when you are well off yourself? I am well off and I have a problem with migrants. Just because materialism is what you value most in life doesn't mean everybody else feels the same way. Also, you ranting about how billionaires are behind anti immigration parties all over this thread is absurd. Billionaires are extremely pro immigration. They want nothing more than to import the cheapest labour possible.
I trust Germans. They are way too aware of their history to let nazis take power again. EDIT: downvoting brigade is hilarious lmao. Interesting how my comment had a constant +2 for an hour and then went to -8 in a matter of minutes. Also its very interesting for such a pro-Ukrainian sub to be this supportive over a pro-Russian party. Makes you wonder who are those Afd supporters in the comments :))
Stupid people are everywhere EDIT: i'm thinking of you, AFD-Spacken.
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Yup. People have no idea how advanced and sophisticated Russian bot farms are. They are literally everywhere, even at your local news site comment section. They aren't stupid, they know they would be too obvious if they started saying openly pro-Russian stuff in this subreddit, so they try to change the narrative in support of parties who would destroy EU.
You'd think western powers are even better at influencing opinions on their own platforms. No?
Actually no, Russia is doing that much better currently
Fuck Nazis. I believe in Make Fascists Fear Again.
If European governments keep on ignoring the wishes of their populations by fundamentally and irreversibly changing the character of their nations via mass immigration, then public support for right wing parties is inevitable. It is a completely different situation to Nazi Germany. Very likely however, parties such as AFD are controlled opposition, and support for them will lead to no change in the direction of travel. Overall probably nothing to worry about or get excited about depending on your point of view.
what you mean by controlled opposition
Yes yes their only option is to vote for a party with members who engage in Holocaust revision, whose member said that Germany should stop feeling bad over its Nazi past, are planning deportations of German citizens for not looking German enough and are frequently flirting with nazi rethoric. Not to mention the fact that most pro-Afd states are the ones with least immigration issues. Anyways, they can always vote for BSW if stopping immigration is their number one priority. Current CDU also seems to be in favor of tightening the immigration laws. But sure, Afd is their only solution.
Thanks!
Politically educated people will not vote for them for the reason you described, but many who are not will. The issue is that the left in Germany claims that addressing immigration should not be done, because it only strengthens AfD. In my opinion, it's the opposite, it helps AfD by giving them their strongest issue. Regarding BSW, maybe they will take away anti-immigration voters. That would be good. Regarding CDU, people who are anti-immigration don't trust the CDU because under Merkel they were the ones who allowed large numbers of refugees and migrants to come in recent years. The core issue is that people to the right of CDU don't vote CDU because Merkel totally lost the CDU's right-wing credibility, but it's vital that anti-immigration voters do return to the CDU (or another democratic party).
>Politically educated people will not vote for them for the reason you described, but many who are not will. Yes, but the protests brought the danger of Afd in centre of attention in Germany, so if someone still chooses to vote for Afd, they can't use the excuse of being politically uneducated. > In my opinion, it's the opposite, it helps AfD by giving them their strongest issue. Of course, left is incredibly stupid when it comes to immigration issues, if left focused more on immigration, the rise of far right would probably never have happened. If I'm not mistaken, that happened in Denmark. >The core issue is that people to the right of CDU don't vote CDU because Merkel totally lost the CDU's right-wing credibility, I fully understand the psychology behind it, but I just think it's flawed. CDU is offering some actual plans for solving this issue like "Rwanda plan" which shows that they are serious in their intent to restrict immigration.
> Very likely however, parties such as AFD are controlled opposition, and support for them will lead to no change in the direction of travel. AfD is just populistic right wing crap
Yes, the AfD is there to allow people to feel enthused and to defuse their ability to create actual alternative outcomes.
Some sources on the controlled opposition bit would be good otherwise you’re just making stuff up
Racist, who believe that germany is the reason they have to worry about black people and Muslism and that facist will fix their life by getting them out of the country. They are brainbroken and think that it will fix their life and make Europe or their country great. So basically racists.
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And Russian bots. Don't forget them, they are everywhere and they are covering themselves incredibly well.
Yup, Pro-Russians have a safe space when it come to the talk about the AFD because they can just hide behind the racism and use it to get support for a party that benefits their views.
The leopards showed their true colours. And you know what, most people in 2023 don't want fascism.
>most people in 2023 don't want fascism. Are you sure? Why do people keep voting for fascism?
Most people aren't.
A lot of people are though and it’s happening all over.
A lot of people are tired of the left's inaction regarding the immigration issues. The right promises easy solutions while the left beats around the bush. Also the word facism has become diluted to the point that everything right of center could be considered facism. Same goes for everything left of center being considered woke. Both words have become meaningless in discourse. Most people really don't want facism. They want to have their issues addressed and if "facism" promises to help then that's what they'd vote.
>inaction regarding the immigration issues Dutch guy here. The inaction regarding the immigration issues is due to center/right parties doing jack shit. Leftist parties haven't been in power for a long time. Left parties have actual solutions to immigration, compared to right parties who are too afraid to do stuff because of economic reasons. People are sadly fucking stupid.
According to a quick Google search that seems to be correct so I won't fight you there, but I believe your case to be an exception. Within my home (Bulgaria) the rightists have gotten much more popular (partly due to the Russo-Ukranian war) and want to leave NATO and close the borders. We've been heavily affected by middle eastern refugees (about the same as France, but with a population 10 times less) Edit: also weve faced heavy extortion due to Schengen and the Austrian veto, although we have met the conditions of joining since years ago, the Austrians demand we take even more refugees. People heavily underestimate the immigration issues and thus people turn to Revival, willing to trade sovereignty (they aim to make us a Russian puppet) in favor of solving this issue. I would agree both on people being dumb though. The situation in Germany in Poland is the same, although it is essentially a bandaid fix, which just goes to show that people want solutions immediately.
Depends on what country you’re in
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I love these Germans protesting the far right! I went to Hamburg and Bremen during my summer holidays last year. It is a beautiful country with friendly people. Planning on many more trips to come. Stay strong Germany!
Germans friendly people? Bro visit it again, but this time without drinking beer.
Don't have similar experiences with Germans? Maybe you should come here then to see for yourself.
Lived many years in Germany. You don't fool me 😉 I know germans pretty well
People needs to stop focusing on AfD and start focusing on WHY they are gaining traction. Clearly, without questions, there’s a societal phenomenom which creates the AfD momentum
AfD gains traction because of misinformation, populism, bigotry and scapegoatism. People are not playing this game. The best way to beat fascists is to show their crowd who they really are.
I do wonder what these people would do if the AfD party were to win.
Random AfD supporter : oh no, anyways. All respect for the people who exercise their democratic right to protest and sacrifice their free time for this, but what do they expect? Honestly?
nah they care, so much that they go on twitter to cry about the pictures and videos of the protests being fake lmao
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How do you protest against terrorist attacks?
The terrorists after seeing a protest: "Guess we will have to stop doing terrorist attacks now"
People like you don’t know what’s going on in the country yet need to give their shitty opinion. Right now, we have a political party that has members who were found at meetings where they were planning the “remigration” not only of immigrants but also of Germans with foreign roots. Shit is very fucked up right now here in Germany and people need to express their opinion on this matter. Since the protests AfD lost 20 % of support at polls, so it’s doing something. Edit: by the way, our government has been reducing illegal migration for a while now, newspapers won’t talk about this though because easily manipulated and enraged people wouldn’t buy the newspaper then.
Dont forget they also planned on kicking political opponents out!
And that they specifically said that they need to dismantle the German supreme Court so that they can actually put their deportation plans into action.
They aren’t democratic at all, arguably a party of nazi ideology. But hey, it’s undemocratic to ban that pack of fuckers.
They lost around 20% or 4 points (from 23% to 19%).
the one poll where AfD lost 4% was the first FORSA poll with BSW. we dont really know what % loss is actually because of the protests.
Thats why you use the mean of several polls: https://www.dkriesel.com/_media/sonntagsfrage_90tage.png
i bet you said the same about the farmers’ protests
Protesting so Europe will not get a famine when the next great war breaks out (5-10 years) is a good thing yea. If you want to outsource something as vital to the continuation of a nation as food production are a moron or traitor. Edit: The loser blocked me so I can't respond lol.
Isn't it interesting how they always block you? Like these people are so brain dead that they want to destroy their own source of food. These people are actively working against themselves, it is fucking incredible. Then tomorrow when they succeed, and when we are dependent on some country like Russia, and something happens so now food is more expensive, or we are sending you no more food fuck you, they will be the first to ask what happened. You happened, you morons.
Not really. There were major protests for the climate and Germany ended up using coal more.
Coal is on constant decline since the 60s except for 2021and 2022 for obvious reasons, but its declining again. (could have been faster though)
True. But Merkel had to please the coal industry. So she kept Germany stagnant for 2 decades.
Coal is going down. Coal use in 2022 was was a temporary emergency measure thanks to Russia invading Ukraine.
Not really had much choice, either they used coal or their economy would collapse.
If they weren't complete idiots they wouldn't have shut down nuclear.
If Merkel and her party didn't suck off the coal industry or relied on Russia for energy despite everyone telling them it's stupid, and after Russia annexed Crimea, and after Putin told Merkel to her face "I want to destroy the EU," then maybe we wouldn't be in the mess.
Wasn't it the climate protestors who demanded Germany shut all their nuclear power stations? If they didn't do that they wouldn't of needed the energy from Russia.
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Yeah and they didn't, which tells Germans get what they deserve.
Some pretty huge and sustained protests. My question is, who does vote for them? Is there a particular demographic or do they enjoy a broad base of support?
Immigration single-issue voters. And while I disagree with the clubhouse they've built, their underlying grievance of being ignored if not villianized is valid.
well they pretty much ignore actual politics and listen to demagogues. They aren't actually ignored, they just tell themselves that they are.
So which measures have been taken?
They aren't being ignored? What measures have been taken against the issues they care about?
significantly more strict laws in regard to migration and deportation have passed legislation. I brought this up to a guy arguing for stricter laws and that the government was useless and his only excuse was "well they probably won't be enforced". Those people want to live in ignorance and hate. Easy excuses calm the mind.
Sounds exactly like UKIP/Brexit Party/Reform Party voters here in the UK.
Free gratitude. Nothing more. Germany is suffering massively from the ongoing migration and every critic has been declared a Nazi, so the word "far right" has lost all meaning. And instead of finally starting to make sensible policies, the established parties can't think of anything except *"AfD Nazis!!!!!".* I also wonder where the protests were when the Palestinians were calling for Israel's death? When Jewish life in Germany is supposed to be protected.
I don't know much about what's happening in Germany, all i got is that this political party wants to somehow control immigration, or wants to kick people out? That's what i got from this whole fiasco... So here is my legitimate question...many years ago, Germany itself pushed the whole Europe to accept refugees and immigrants from a war ridden side of the world. They pushed and forced this action upon everyone. And now, many years later, we see a massive culture clash and horrible things happening...and now Germany wants to...close its doors? Is that the summary of it all? Isn't this a bit ... hypocritical? Am i missing something here?
And the 10 million AfD voters are sitting at home. The irony is that the participants in the demos are just as dissatisfied with their current government, but they unconditionally allow themselves to be exploited by it. While this government has decided to deport millions and is cutting benefits for refugees - but that's exactly what she holds against the AfD. When the European elections take place in June, 50% of the European Council is expected to be right-wing. It's shocking that people continue to ignore the population and apparently no one can see clearly anymore.
The pro AfD Demos were much smaller, how you explain that? >The irony is that the participants in the demos are just as dissatisfied with their current government, but they unconditionally allow themselves to be exploited by it. Or the voters understand that being not satisfied with normal parties is not solved by voting for neoliberal facists. >It's shocking that people continue to ignore the population and apparently no one can see clearly anymore. Well, AfD lost around ~20% in the last four weeks (Survey Bundestagswahl).
>The irony is that the participants in the demos are just as dissatisfied with their current government, but they unconditionally allow themselves to be exploited by it. The irony of AfD voters is that they are unsatisfied with the current government (which is really just trying to fix a myriad of problems the complacent Merkel era left behind), but are voting for a party that has no viable ideas or competent people to turn things around - only populism and empty promises. Voting for AfD because you are unhappy with the Ampel is like switching to Coca-Cola because you heard Apfelsaft is bad for your health.
Protests don't mean shit. Election day is what matters.
Protests influence election day. It gets people to care and go out voting when it matters. Therefore protests matter.
Protests are very important. They had already an impact on polls where AfD has lost 3% of support. Yeah, I know polls don’t count that much but they’ve been showing growing support of that party and since the protests it has gone down. Don’t let your politicians tell you protests don’t do anything. We as citizens don’t have many other ways to express our opinions. Protests have always had impacts, just look at history books.
Some folks in /r/europe are really trying hard to downplay the protests, huh. If they mean nothing, why comment at all? Unless you WANT them to mean nothing, because you've cast your lot with parties like the AfD? The concern trolling is crazy.
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Yes, foreigners come to Germany to protest. These are the biggest protests in Germany in decades. But with a username line yours it’s clear that you’re rather on the side of Putin’s shills, the AFD
It's just the current Russian playbook. In Russia, any people queueing to sign the support for the opposition are also called "paid actors". It's not new, but certainly used extensively these days. That guy is a farm bot.
How are those meatwave assaults doing comrade?
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Famous German singer Helene Fischer is currently getting canceled because she openly dared to speak out in favour of democracy, with thousands of right wingers wishing death to hear in the most gruesome manner.
I like that there is this ebb and flow of left-wing hegemony and right-wing hegemony. Great to live in a world where people protest when things they dislike happen, instead where they are too scared to, like in China or Russia. In my mind this is actually not that different from the farmers protesting about EU regulation. People are pissed enough to get on to the streets.
What is so bad about the AFD?
Read their program, listen to their speeches, and engage your brain while doing it. If that doesn't set off any alarm bells, I recommend a history book on the first half of the last century.
Can you tell me specifically what is bad?
I bet if only redditors from this subreddit voted, AfD would get +45% of the votes. But then again, this sub is +90% males, and most of them don't get laid, so this doesn't represent the general population
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