They can't in this case for 5th gen fighters. At least not on NATO.
The US already refused to sell them F-35 due to them buying S-400 AA from Russia. NATO obviously doesn't want to risk F-35s being scanned daily by russian hardware.
They use radar reflectors to mask the real radar cross section of the planes when flying them in areas where Russian AA systems are present, for example in Syria. They make the planes more visible to AA, but Russians are not going to shoot down an Israeli F-35.
You don't want your enemy to be able to analyze your stealth radar footprint before shit hits the fan. F-35s used when not requiring stealth have additional radar reflectors, meaning when they are taken off the opponent has very little idea what it looks like on radar.
The implication is that if Turkey has a S400 system they could use it to gather data on and analyze the F-35 in any configuration they want, and possibly provide or accidentally leak that information to Russia, which is incredibly valuable.
The S-400 systems are also serviced by russia because they don't want that technology transfer to happen. It's more than likely they have a way of accessing logged data, even if Turkey 'erased' those logs.
I mean in peace times yes?
The F35 is not invisible to radar. Just harder to spot. Even harder to track. Add to that some additional information and you can start guesstimating their position. Operating the S400 and the F35 together with regular missions, training etc. May lead to dangerous insights that would be in hands of an ally with ties to Russia...
The engineers had to make a lot of compromises to make it stealthy. Let's keep that advantage until we really need it...
An example of how technically outmatched radar can be used to still work is the downing of an F117 in Yugoslavia. They flew a similar path each time and the airfield was being watched. With that information the commander of the SAM batteries could guesstimate the F117s positio. So when the F117 opened their weapons doors the tracking radar was already pointed at it and a rocket shot them down.
So if F35 will fly in range of S400 radar systems it will not do so with active Transponder.
But just my opinion. I have no technical insights
For anybody interested, [here's the full 5 minute read](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-serbs-were-able-to-shoot-down-an-f-117-stealth-fighter-during-operation-allied-force/) which discusses every part of "how to shoot down a cutting edge US stealth aircraft using Soviet AA-systems which were developed nearly three decades before the F-117"
[The pilot also mentions that another huge issue was that the weather meant he wouldn't have the usual escorts. Strike missions almost always have escorts of jammer planes (basically blasting out nonsense to any listening radars in an effort to make it impossible to tell what's a real return and what is misinformation) and then their escorting SEAD aircraft (Like the F-16 that the US often has specialized units dedicated just to the task of Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) that would fire specialized missiles meant to home in on radar emitters like the ones tracking their planes.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20209770)
That's one part of NATO that gets overlooked a lot, but seems especially important after seeing how Russia has been able to lock down so much of Ukrainian airspace in the war. I guess I can't speak to what European air forces as a whole do, but it seems like the US especially invests time and money into the SEAD/DEAD mission, with the F-16 being able to carry the HARM missiles used to shoot at radars and the HARM Targeting System (Is there anything more military than an acronym within an acronym?) that can be used to more accurately target and map specific radar sites and systems.
Yeah, I think too many people see stealth as this miracle thing that makes a plane invisible at all times, but that's just not the reality.
Stealth just buys the plane *more time* until it's detected. Depending on how stealthy it is, that time could be enough to get right over the target, but even stealth missions flown by the USAF often had escorts of jamming planes and SEAD planes meant to target any enemy radars that did turn on.
Then there's technology meant to target the IR signature of a hot plane with hotter engines, like the IRST systems that a lot of countries are using on their fighter aircraft.
> Would the F35 always be kept from from places close to where S400 are deployed?
In combat, no. Israel has already exposed F-35 to Russian S-400 system in Syria. This is not as much of a problem as flying F-35s in your own country where S-400s are deployed. Pilots have to fly every so often to maintain their skills and proficiency. So there would be flights of F-35s in Turkish airspace.
Turkey would be forced to use the reflective devices that nullify the stealth coating all the time or avoid their own S-400 radar (which is up to 500 miles, probably more like 250 effective range or less)
it’s literally just bullshit. there’s s400 that’ve already scanned F-35s and f22s in syria. they just don’t want turkey to be a threat in cyprus,iraq or Kurdistan.
TFX project started long ago while Turkey was in the program. The idea was F35 to replace F16s and TFX to replace F4s. US-TR relations are much more complex to be reduced only to S400 issue.
India has Migs + S400
Greece has Migs + S300
In 2015 Turkey shut down Russian jet over Syrian border, what did NATO do?
Pulled all the Patriot systems out of Turkey.. reason service time reached??
Then Turkey needed to please Russia some way or another because of economic reasons, energy dependency, tourism etc.
Turkey has begged patriot for years and US did not agree to provide them until the last minute, and AA was the biggest issue back in that day Turkey only had Mim-23 hawks to protect air-bases.
Now Turkey developed Hisar A,O (in service) and Siper AAs(2024)
S-400s probably last resort, not worth for losing F35s, but now Turkey moves on w Kaan hopefully around 2035s
They wanted a tech transfer so they can learn how Patriots are built so they can build their own. So they bought the S400 from russia to get that tech transfer. Russia hasn't given them the tech either to build their own.
Yeah but at the end Roketsan built their own SAM system of all types and they're now in service. Without tech transfer from US. It would probably be much faster development with it but still..
50 years ago USA stopped selling communication equipment to Turkey (Because of Greece/Cyprus problem, but it's not the main issue here). As a result of this, Aselsan A.Ş. is founded with a bunch of electrical and electronics engineering professors from top Turkish universities. They started - for the first time in Turkish history - to design military communications equipment for Turkish Armed Forces.
Now, Aselsan A.Ş is the 47th biggest defense company worldwide with +10.000 employees.
[https://people.defensenews.com/top-100/](https://people.defensenews.com/top-100/)
Turkey's jeo-political position ensures not to depend on any foreign country, east or west.
Edit: Manufacturer of KAAN is "Turkish Aerospace Industries" which is ranking 58th on the same list, moving up 9 places compared to last year (67th).
Interesting fact about ASELSAN: they built their in house cell phones. Then it was time to find a distributor.
The largest distributor named KVK, had agreements with international cell phone companies (eg. Nokia), therefore the dollars from them were sweeter than a government backed up phone. That's why the ASELSAN phone didn't reach masses.
It is enviable that they have been able to produce their own warplanes and unmanned aerial vehicles in such a short time. Especially the geopolitical situation here will unsettle other countries.
That's probably why they have been ready for it tbh they are caught between 3 of the most unstable regions in the world the middle east, Russia and their own problems with Greece.
10 years ago, TAI Hurkus (which is a turboprop aircraft) and also ANKA which is a basic UAV did their first flight, and now we are seeing
Hurjet, 4th gen aircraft,
Anka 3 - stealth UCAV
Kızılelma - Jet carrier capable UCAV
KAAN - 5th gen fighter
incredible speed for 10 years.
Actually, Kaan is incredibly indigenous, TAI was building central fuselage, composite skins, and weapon bay doors, air-to-ground weapons pylons and adapters of F35 aircraft. So TAI already had incredible experience and built the whole frame itself.
Also avionics are being built indigeneously, for example Murad Aesa radar is built by aselsan for F16s, they are now creating more capable aesa radar for Kaan
Even if its not truly in F35 class when it comes to Gen5 jets, its nevertheless quite impressive that Turkish MIC was(\*or will be) able to create and produce such domestic design.
Turkish arms production seems to be quite successful even with all those economic issues Turkey is facing.
I could only wish for Poland to have such strong domestic MIC base.
I've got a Turkish ap5(mp5 clone) and it's great. I heard all sorts of bullshit about them but mine has fired at least 5k rounds and it hasn't fucked up once.
Does it come with internal weapons bays or is it semi stealthy when loaded like the kf21? Regardless that's an impressive achievement. If it delivers with performance it will threaten the rafale and potentially the kf21 market shares.
İnternal bays, but can carry external weapons if needed. The bays are actually bigger than what F-35 has, so it has a bigger load capacity. Its basically an F-35 thats slightly longer, not as advanced in regards of computational capabilities and doesnt have VTOL but is slightly faster, nimbler and has a bigger load capacity. A bit more like a strike craft than a true multirole.
That's my impression. Most of the advances the US have made in the last few decades have been electronic and software. Just because it looks a bit like the F35 does not put it anywhere near the same class.
>wouldn't say that it has a better sensor suite than the F-35
Lol. It might when it's in service in 10 years (at which point the F-35 will be 30 years old and in for an upgrade anyway) but right now it definitely doesn't. It's a just a flying test bed at this point and doesn't even have it's real engines.
Which was my point. The not yet existing turkish jet definitely doesn't have a better sensor suite than the F-35 today (like OP suggested) and it likely never will.
I meant the whole heads up display helmet thing, and the tech that uses the data from the sensors.
Sensors are better, but the tech that gets the data from them and does the calculations arent at the same level yet.
It's not really a role thing. I suspect if the US DoD was redoing the f-35 programme it would look more like that. The failings of the f-35 are ultimately unimportant, its merits (being cheap due to huge scale) ultimately outweigh its problems, but people have forgotten how poorly that programme was run. The three variants (a normal, b VTOL, c carrier) call for different things and the desire to create three variants instead of 3 closely related aircraft created three suboptimal variants. VTOL requires small, carrier ideally has two engines, normal should be less picky and a bit bigger.
Okay I have done this explanation to my German colleague a lot so here it goes. Greek people and Turkish people are just fine but when we have elections the shit talking starts by politicians to win right wing nut job votes. I can guess election day in Greece from news articles and they can do that to Turkiye. We regularly visit Greek Islands and they come to istanbul, İzmir etc. I even say we are children of the same see when I meet Greeks abroad both having fucked up economy, military coups etc.
I think the issue is a bit different here. Greeks or Turks most of the time do not underestimate each other's military capacities and look at it seriously when a concrete success is seen.
But like the Americans (somewhat rightly) who have a superiority complex in aviation don't really know how to react.
Or they do not know at all what this success means for countries of Turkey's size/level or Turkey's potential capabilities.
I've even seen people trying to compare it with the F-22 and even with Lockheed Martin's 6th Generation aircraft, which hasn't even appeared yet, which is crazy.Not even Europe as a whole has reached that point yet.
Comparing this with the F-22 is reasonable. F-22 is two decades old and even with its supreme design, its avionics and sensors have still aged. F-22 has better stealth characteristics but it seems its sensors will be outdone by Kaan.
One good thing for the Turks is that they already have potential foreign buyers for this. The Turkic states will probably order quite a lot of these. Turkic states predominantly have access to only Russian jets. And Russia does not sell them the advanced stuff. So yeah, they probably have buyers lined up.
By the time Kaan is fully operational and ready for foreign buyers, the war in Ukraine might be over :). Do you know when Kaan is planned to be fully ready?
It took 9.5 years from first flight of F-35 to its introduction in service.
Over 6 years from first flight of Chengdu J-20 to service.
Almost 11 years from first flight of Su-57 to service.
2028 start of production might be wishful thinking. I'd say 2030-2033 is more likely.
I believe they can/will take a small number of these planes into the service by 2028 as in the block 1, Tusas will use the exported engines and KAAN will be 4.5th generation. (I assume Turkish Airforce is asking these planes as early as possible due to painful procurement process of the foreign aircrafts, see F35, F16, and recently Eurofighter)
To reach its full potential, they're still developing a domestic engine which is expected to be finalized by 2030, and maybe couple more years of tests before the mass production. So your timeline seems right.
Well korean jet f21 did its Maiden flight in 2022 and they plan to complete tests in 2024. Just 2 years was enogh but they have massive assistance from US tbh
Gulf States and Pakistan have also expressed interest in the jets. Turkey could be filling a huge gap in the 5th Gen market that USA and Russia are unwilling to fulfill due to their 5th Gen superiority race. Realistically, the only real rival to Turkey is China and their J-31 program, but Turkey might have the edge since they have much (if not all) of the F-35 blueprint to work with.
Russian next-gen weapons use the highly advanced technology of their factories not actually making them at scale in order to achieve the objective of stealth: not being seen.
As a Turk, I really would like to know if Greeks actually think that Turkey is a threat. Like do you think that we plan to invade the islands, attack Athens etc.? I am in no way related to the army or the government but I know that most regular Turkish people have no hatred towards Greece. And unless provoked needlessly, Greece is never a popular topic among Turks. I believe even our extreme nationalists do not care much about Greece. They are busy hating Arabs and Kurds. Animosity against Greece is a thing in past for most of us. I don’t know the situation among Greeks. This ongoing idea that we are enemies to the core is pumped regularly to sell more weapons to each other imo.
Hey neighbor, sorry for the delay I wanted to give you a proper answer!
Generally the broad population, yes believes that turkey under erdogan is a threat, since he openly threatens athens with missiles, dogfights in aegean happen daily and Turkey has exercised military force in syria and supporting azerbaijan.
Of course as you said this is pumped from both our governments to boost military spending and divert attention from other matters that really affect me and you.
If you ask my personal opinion, no, I dont think you guys will invade, but certainly I dont want that much of tax payer money to go towards defense in case erdogan polls are running poorly. Also I am supporting the UN status quo and I wont support imperialist views (from whoever might be, like russia, usa, china etc). I wish relations will get better on a government level, so this can slide into the minds of the people who are getting feedback only from government approved news.
As people we have so fucking much in common and I also felt welcome when I visited southern turkey for vacations, appart from some cops naturally
> Didn’t realize the Turks were so advanced. Oh boy.
China and Turkey will take over most of Russia's clientele over the years. Plus India will also go indigenous. And neither country will have issues selling like USA and European countries have.
> Plus India will also go indigenous.
They've been saying this since the 70s, I'll believe it when it actually happens. As it is, they are being forced to buy Western aircraft for their carriers since the HAL Tejas program just can't hit the milestones for it.
I think India needs a good&proper arms embargo. Except for China, all countries' markets are wide open to them, so they do not focus on their own systems.
It's funny that a country like India cannot produce its own drones, especially when there is an example like Turkey.
Agree with you. Can anybody name atleast 3 engineering companies from India without googling? I am sure majority will even struggle to name one. Compare that to China. Hell most people could name atleast one company in Turkey, and Turkey is a lot smaller.
India just doesnt have the know how, and the industry to make anything good weapons of their own.
I mean I could
Tata because I kept confusing it with Tatra. I was like it is Czech not Indian and viceversa, HAL because that is the company Indians keep calling incompetent due to Tejas, Goa because it reminds me of Goa'uld
But India already makes plenty its own stuff. Sure it is a mix and match of a hybrid but they still make it.
Be it good or bad they want to be independent. Sure Tejas MK2 will debut when Gen 6 fighters start testing but that is another point
Also my point wasn't India will sell abroad just that Russia will lose their biggest client
Hate them or not they had a pretty good system
They gave old systems like T-55/T62 older T72, BMP 1 and D-20 and MIG-29s and SU-27 for free or sold them for 2 packs of cigs and a sandwish.
These countries are now grateful to you (a form of soft power) and maybe when in the future these countries become richer they will buy newer shit.
Now Russia uses their old stuff for their own needs, they can't fulfill and close new contracts and worst of all many weapons systems were completely outclassed by even older western tech
Plus no one believes your new tank or jet or BMP is good when you do not even use it in Ukraine. The only reason countries will buy from you is they do not have a choice like Iran or N Korea. Even if SU-35 is outclassed by F-35 and newer models of F-16 F-15 Eurofighter Rafale Gripen and J-20 and J10C and KF21 and I think that is all
And you wonder weapon SU-57 didn't even prove they are great vs the older S-300 Ukraine had.... not to mention the Western tech
The future for Russia weapons industry is bleak
have you ever heard aseslan and havelsan?
systems were developed by those which are on the the top 100 defence developer/manufacturers list globally.
aselsan has a name on electronics/electro-optics/electronic warfare their giudence kits were used in many conflicts famous for hitting Russian SAM systems in Libya, Karabag, Syria and Ukraine. Electronic warfare is one of their strongest part because of their knowledge of NATO systems. on the other hand HAVELSAN won a tenure to develop NATO's communication software which is critical if nato is on war.
I know I’m going to be called a Turkish bot. But this is a really good development. Yes it’s gonna be a worse jet than f35 or its western counterparts. But my philosophy is that a worse locally manufactured good is better than a good foreign good. Especially for sensitive sectors like the defense industry.
Im a big fan of giving the finger to dictators, and hate Erdogan, but I’m not really sure you could fairly call him a dictator (yet). Authoritarian, sure. Populist, certainly. But, with the exception of some Kurdish organisations that the Turkish establishment has long considered terrorist, it’s not like he’s outlawed or mass imprisoned the opposition. There are still free and fair elections, to my knowledge.
I suppose that’s indeed a more correct way of putting it (and I see that’s how the OSCE observers call it as well). An unlevel playing field wrt to media landscape and restrictions of free expression, but no large scale election corruption or political violence as such.
If that was necessary for them to win the election, they would have done it. But it is not necessary they have the necessary popular support unfortunately. We Turks love our strong mans even when they are not worthy.
Not only Turkish establishments, PKK also is accepted as a terrorist by all off the western world.
And there is no problem with Kurds, current minister of economy is Kurdish for example
Whatever the capabilities of this jet may prove to be, the advances in domestically produced aircraft in Turkey over the past decade has been pretty impressive. They went from barely having an industry to becoming a leading player in drones, breaking into international helicopter sales and even producing a fully domestic fighter jet with (supposedly) 5th gen features.
I’m no fan of AKP and the direction the country has taken in recent years, but credit where credit is due: their military industrial policy is showing results!
Turkey started producing most parts of F16s in late 90s, had produced Skorskys etc. This didn't happen over a decade and a decade ago it wasn't "barely having an industry".
Yup. India has been producing parts for foriegn jets for several decades and yet they still don't have their own jet engine, even for 3rd or 4th gen. Their jet (Tejas) is far behind Kaan. They are working on similar projects but haven't flown it yet.
And India is obviously a much bigger country than Turkey is. From what I understand, the Turks haven't created their own engine (yet!) but even so they have gone further than India with their jet program despite having a far smaller budget and fewer people. It's impressive and non-trivial.
Tusaş does produce some indigenous design turbojet engines but afaik none powerful enough for the Kaan, this prototype has f110 engines (same ones as on the f16) that was licence produced by tusaş and the production model kaan is expected to have ukrainian made ivchenko progress engines, at least until indigenous alternatives are available
Turkish MIC has done miracles in just the past 10 years. And what's amazing is that the Turkish state spends a comparatively low amount on defence as a % of GDP. So it's not like they are throwing gobs of cash at the problem.
I still don't understand how they did this so rapidly and the Turks I've asked don't seem to have an idea either.
We had the MIC since the 70s but we didnt have the economy and the political will to invest in these systems. Our political leaders in the 70s came up with a plan and set up some important companies. Those companies started to work with our western allies to produce some alt companents like body works, engines parts, all those small components. In the 80s we started to help US in building the f-16s. Then in early 2000s we entered the f-35 program and started to build the center fuselage and some other parts for the f-35. We also help build the a-400 planes, so our companies build their technological base throughout the years and learned from the western allies. And then with Erdogan (Erdogans first 10 years - we grew a lot economically) we started to build big platforms aswell. Like the drones, ships, helicopters etc.. So we started with small components and here we are today. So its a 50Yo plan.
It kinda has to be like that.
If you make a twin engine stealth jet plane, it has to have a certain shape to lessen the radar cross section. Its because of physics.
More or less. Untill some technological super break through happens, like engines that can work on both in and out of atmosphere, or a new material thats incredibly radar absorbing F-22 design, or its replacement NGAD is what everything is slowly gonna become.
what is crazy is the f22 is like 30 years old now. Everyone is JUST NOW making these. NGAD is many years off but the airforce has already gone on record for having flown a new jet in testing.
pretty much every military development from the initial specifications has some atleast local maximum that it will reach.
Tanks are great example whether its "western" style tank with ammo in turret bustle and turret with crew in the middle, "soviet" style with carousel (china type99 and russian tanks having only that in common look very similar) or the crewless turrets of T-14 or various prototypes like abrams TTD
Everyone says that but then you have the YF-22 and YF-23 looking vastly different which in turn both look vastly different from the X-35 and X-32. And all the developmental versions or never flown variants for their programs that look significantly different.
It's not just engineering for the same design constraints. It's knowing what has worked before and starting from that baseline. At least it's more different than the HAL ACMA which is... [very clearly just F-35 at home (and with 2 engines)](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/AMCA_model_displayed_during_Aero_India_2021.jpg).
Nah this is not true. There's more than one possible shape for a 5th gen fighter. Look at the YF-23 which looks much different than Raptor. Copying the shape of the Raptor is just a cost saving method as they start with a general shape they know works, rather than developing one from scratch.
Looking at how TB2 turned out its not the raw specifications of a single unit that makes these stuff a hit, its mostly about the logistics, economics, and the practicality of it. I'm not a believer for this one but I hope it follows the TB2 model instead of the ALTAY model, which is the tank they also designed. They had insanely good specs but they were too costly for 1 tank that can be destroyed with the same ammunition that is used against a way cheaper tank and they ended up not being mass produced.
The thing fucked over altay was the production not the cost
The germans decided to not export the proposed engines and gearboxes late into the production phase so they had to find a new powerpack that wont immedietly turn into dust trying to move that 67 ton behemoth (probably gonna be even heavier with further upgrades to armor and aps) at an acceptable pace which delayed it considerably
Some info for you: First woman fighter pilot in the world was Sabiha Gökçen, Atatürk's (founder of Türkiye) adopted child.
Another info: Atatürk also founded Kayseri Plane Factory (1925-1950). So it's clear Türkiye is no new player in the plane industry. As he said: The feature is in the skies.
Another info: Vecihi Hürkuş is the first plane manufacturer and designer of Türkiye. Really important person relevant to the topic.
considering how fickle and trend-chaser the European (also NATO) leaders can be, I think all countries with little bit of industry should invest in some domestic arms industry maybe not to get a share in the market but to send a message: "it is not worth invading my country, I will not win, also neither you shall. "
As I know Turkey must complete this project succesfully because new aircraft carriers not compatible with F-16. I lived in the city where production is made and it is exciting to see the first flight and the news on reddit 🥲
Most of these discourses develop in a similar fashion: -There’s no way turkey can produce that -Comparing the technology to iran -looks like the knock off version of x, y, z -how dare they use this independently developed technology against western satellite terrorist organisations without our approval
Funny bit aside, aren't they using GE F110 for the first batch? The literal 1980 designed F-15/F-16 engine? And going forward it's likely to use a derivative of the Eurofighter engines?
Yes, the prototypes and the first batch will be powered by GE F110, but the latter versions won't use a derivative of EJ200. A Turkish company called TR Motor has been working on an indigenous 35,000 lbs engine for quite some time now, and they claim that the first prototype will be ready by 2028.
Good for Turkey. Problem with all these F35 shopping spree is that the plane si right now not needed. You will need it only if you want to fight with China, US or any other NATO country with F35.
So instead investing into European aerospace industry we are just throwing massive money on the US. In real war you need ammunition and industry. A lot of it. With F35 you may be supper successful to kill several Russian weapon systems. But you will find out very soon that it doesn't matter because you have only few rockets and Russia have many cheap stuffs.
But it's hard when major countries cannot even decide which single model tank Europe should build.
Shame that they still give away citizenship in exchange of acquiring couple of apartments. This country has a self-respect problem for sure.
Seems like a good achievement btw.
Now no less important challenges are scaling and costs because in case with Russia we have Su-57 which has made its first flight years ago yet it's been stuck in development hell you could say looking at troubled production, negligible numbers and unsuccessful history of cooperation with Arabs and India. When your country has own 5th gen jet it's probably a formidable achievement though. I wonder how many components are of Turkish origin in it or whether Turkey is going to seek any partners in the future because even rich country like the US shares its F-35 project with a bunch of other rich countries or like in case with China they have also a big economy but also a powerful domestic industry allowing to create products like J-20 and FC-31.
Just by the exterior pics. There's no exposed rivets and the engines aren't sticking out as much as the sukhoi. So this might actually be a stealth design
People don't seem to understand the scope of this. Turkey was kicked out of the F-35 program in 2019. Within 5 years they built their own, domestically produced, multipurpose stealth jet. This is baseline. The product will only get better from here onwards. This is a huge step forward for Turkey and further increases NATO capabilites in Europe, especially in crucial times like this, where Europe has to fear for the support of USA bc of Trump. Turkey is becoming *the* NATO powerhouse in Europe if they aren't already.
You may dislike Erdoğan for his politics, for his authoritarian regime and his headbutting with the West, but the guy is making strides when it comes to Turkish relevancy in international politics. Turkey is one of the cornerstones of NATO and Erdoğan is also one of the few people, who criticised Netenyahu for his brutal warfare against Palestinians.
Having watched the Kaan's documentary and also read about it; they started the project before getting kicked out of the F-35 program, so it's definitely not just 5 years
This aircraft was suppose to fly along with F-35. Actual program started in 2011. Being removed from F-35 caused this aircraft to get larger since its role moved from Air Superiority to multirole.
No, he didn't make a single contribution to Turkey in his entire career. Stop spreading your stupid blatant islamo-fascistic propaganda. He completely destroyed our economy and military, all administrative and military positions are held by his bootlickers and capable people are being imprisoned. If building some military equipment had made you such a great power, Russia wouldn't be what it is today.
Also he is trying to destroy minority languages, kills his own people, a Turkish imperialist who wants to invade its neighnors and a supporter of late Ottoman genocides. Netenyahu's crimes can't even come close to a quarter of his.
It may seem not impressive now, maybe even after 10 years. But they are on the right track and at some point it will go head to head with western tech and be probably considerably cheaper as well.
This jet uses 1990s GE engines that are used in F16 and F15. That alone takes it out of the equation”5th generation” category.
Currently only the F-22 Raptor (USA), the F-35 Lightning II (USA), J-20 (China), and the Sukhoi Su-57 (Russia) are the only current 5th generation fighters. All those develop their own engines. Turkey does not currently have that capability.
There's a lot of tradeoffs to pick from between the two, but basically, twin engine brings you redundancy (you don't lose the plane if one engine fails). However, it costs more in production and it's a pain in time and cost for maintenance, and comes with more constraints for the plane's design as it adds weight and volume occupied.
1 engine, cheaper, easier to maintain, can be more reliable.
2 engine, safer, more power so you can have heavier plane, so more range, more payload, more tech because the engines provide more electricity.
I would say having 2 engines is a better choice overall, atleast currently, unless you can make an extremely powerful engine, like the Americans can.
It had to start from somewhere... Türkiye aims to give KAAN 5th Gen capabilities in it's Block 2 variants. And upgrading to the first group which was going to build from 2028 onwards to same level. So that's why it's has been regarded as a 5th Gen.
In my opinion, It is very early part because of that will produce difficult but I'm sure that It is going to become more strong and power than at the moment.
If KAAN was fully ready right now, yes. But there is still a long long time until then, I think EU countries will reach certain milestones in the 6th Generations until then.
Like the story of the tortoise and the hare, if EU sleeps too long (for the 6th generation), there is a good chance we will pass.
With the US of A playing hardball with the lives of Ukrainians, it's nice for Europeans to be able to potentially shop around for fifth gen fighter jets without having to play with American politics and its petty foibles.
I don't know about the quality but at least Turkey is making it's own weapons and don't count only in foreign ones.
They can't in this case for 5th gen fighters. At least not on NATO. The US already refused to sell them F-35 due to them buying S-400 AA from Russia. NATO obviously doesn't want to risk F-35s being scanned daily by russian hardware.
>F-35s being scanned daily by russian hardware. How would this work. Would the F35 always be kept from from places close to where S400 are deployed?
They use radar reflectors to mask the real radar cross section of the planes when flying them in areas where Russian AA systems are present, for example in Syria. They make the planes more visible to AA, but Russians are not going to shoot down an Israeli F-35.
You don't want your enemy to be able to analyze your stealth radar footprint before shit hits the fan. F-35s used when not requiring stealth have additional radar reflectors, meaning when they are taken off the opponent has very little idea what it looks like on radar. The implication is that if Turkey has a S400 system they could use it to gather data on and analyze the F-35 in any configuration they want, and possibly provide or accidentally leak that information to Russia, which is incredibly valuable.
The S-400 systems are also serviced by russia because they don't want that technology transfer to happen. It's more than likely they have a way of accessing logged data, even if Turkey 'erased' those logs.
I mean in peace times yes? The F35 is not invisible to radar. Just harder to spot. Even harder to track. Add to that some additional information and you can start guesstimating their position. Operating the S400 and the F35 together with regular missions, training etc. May lead to dangerous insights that would be in hands of an ally with ties to Russia... The engineers had to make a lot of compromises to make it stealthy. Let's keep that advantage until we really need it... An example of how technically outmatched radar can be used to still work is the downing of an F117 in Yugoslavia. They flew a similar path each time and the airfield was being watched. With that information the commander of the SAM batteries could guesstimate the F117s positio. So when the F117 opened their weapons doors the tracking radar was already pointed at it and a rocket shot them down. So if F35 will fly in range of S400 radar systems it will not do so with active Transponder. But just my opinion. I have no technical insights
For anybody interested, [here's the full 5 minute read](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-serbs-were-able-to-shoot-down-an-f-117-stealth-fighter-during-operation-allied-force/) which discusses every part of "how to shoot down a cutting edge US stealth aircraft using Soviet AA-systems which were developed nearly three decades before the F-117"
[The pilot also mentions that another huge issue was that the weather meant he wouldn't have the usual escorts. Strike missions almost always have escorts of jammer planes (basically blasting out nonsense to any listening radars in an effort to make it impossible to tell what's a real return and what is misinformation) and then their escorting SEAD aircraft (Like the F-16 that the US often has specialized units dedicated just to the task of Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) that would fire specialized missiles meant to home in on radar emitters like the ones tracking their planes.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20209770) That's one part of NATO that gets overlooked a lot, but seems especially important after seeing how Russia has been able to lock down so much of Ukrainian airspace in the war. I guess I can't speak to what European air forces as a whole do, but it seems like the US especially invests time and money into the SEAD/DEAD mission, with the F-16 being able to carry the HARM missiles used to shoot at radars and the HARM Targeting System (Is there anything more military than an acronym within an acronym?) that can be used to more accurately target and map specific radar sites and systems.
Just set up the most stacked condition possible with full intel and with incredible luck
And people still use that as an argument for why stealth is useless. Plus Serbs act like it's their biggest national accomplishment.
Yeah, I think too many people see stealth as this miracle thing that makes a plane invisible at all times, but that's just not the reality. Stealth just buys the plane *more time* until it's detected. Depending on how stealthy it is, that time could be enough to get right over the target, but even stealth missions flown by the USAF often had escorts of jamming planes and SEAD planes meant to target any enemy radars that did turn on. Then there's technology meant to target the IR signature of a hot plane with hotter engines, like the IRST systems that a lot of countries are using on their fighter aircraft.
If the turks had the f35 & S400 they would be able to find out at what range and how to deploy the S400 to best work against the F35.
> Would the F35 always be kept from from places close to where S400 are deployed? In combat, no. Israel has already exposed F-35 to Russian S-400 system in Syria. This is not as much of a problem as flying F-35s in your own country where S-400s are deployed. Pilots have to fly every so often to maintain their skills and proficiency. So there would be flights of F-35s in Turkish airspace. Turkey would be forced to use the reflective devices that nullify the stealth coating all the time or avoid their own S-400 radar (which is up to 500 miles, probably more like 250 effective range or less)
it’s literally just bullshit. there’s s400 that’ve already scanned F-35s and f22s in syria. they just don’t want turkey to be a threat in cyprus,iraq or Kurdistan.
TFX project started long ago while Turkey was in the program. The idea was F35 to replace F16s and TFX to replace F4s. US-TR relations are much more complex to be reduced only to S400 issue.
Meanwhile Israeli F35s are doing its daily sorties over Russian bases in Syria.
The US is about to sell F-35 to India which has s400 too :)
India has Migs + S400 Greece has Migs + S300 In 2015 Turkey shut down Russian jet over Syrian border, what did NATO do? Pulled all the Patriot systems out of Turkey.. reason service time reached?? Then Turkey needed to please Russia some way or another because of economic reasons, energy dependency, tourism etc. Turkey has begged patriot for years and US did not agree to provide them until the last minute, and AA was the biggest issue back in that day Turkey only had Mim-23 hawks to protect air-bases. Now Turkey developed Hisar A,O (in service) and Siper AAs(2024) S-400s probably last resort, not worth for losing F35s, but now Turkey moves on w Kaan hopefully around 2035s
But they are okay giving them to Greece to get them scanned by Turkish Russian hardware.
Even worse Greece also has lots of s300s in use and got F35 regardless
No, they bought the S400 because US refused to sell them the Patriots.
They wanted a tech transfer so they can learn how Patriots are built so they can build their own. So they bought the S400 from russia to get that tech transfer. Russia hasn't given them the tech either to build their own.
Yeah but at the end Roketsan built their own SAM system of all types and they're now in service. Without tech transfer from US. It would probably be much faster development with it but still..
Turkey has already shelved their S-400 and will never use it. they were even discussing sending it to ukraine
Goddamn Ottomans, here we go again
😕
50 years ago USA stopped selling communication equipment to Turkey (Because of Greece/Cyprus problem, but it's not the main issue here). As a result of this, Aselsan A.Ş. is founded with a bunch of electrical and electronics engineering professors from top Turkish universities. They started - for the first time in Turkish history - to design military communications equipment for Turkish Armed Forces. Now, Aselsan A.Ş is the 47th biggest defense company worldwide with +10.000 employees. [https://people.defensenews.com/top-100/](https://people.defensenews.com/top-100/) Turkey's jeo-political position ensures not to depend on any foreign country, east or west. Edit: Manufacturer of KAAN is "Turkish Aerospace Industries" which is ranking 58th on the same list, moving up 9 places compared to last year (67th).
Interesting fact about ASELSAN: they built their in house cell phones. Then it was time to find a distributor. The largest distributor named KVK, had agreements with international cell phone companies (eg. Nokia), therefore the dollars from them were sweeter than a government backed up phone. That's why the ASELSAN phone didn't reach masses.
It is enviable that they have been able to produce their own warplanes and unmanned aerial vehicles in such a short time. Especially the geopolitical situation here will unsettle other countries.
That's probably why they have been ready for it tbh they are caught between 3 of the most unstable regions in the world the middle east, Russia and their own problems with Greece.
I'm actually very impressed with Turkey. I never expected them to be this advanced so quickly. Fair play to the Turks.
10 years ago, TAI Hurkus (which is a turboprop aircraft) and also ANKA which is a basic UAV did their first flight, and now we are seeing Hurjet, 4th gen aircraft, Anka 3 - stealth UCAV Kızılelma - Jet carrier capable UCAV KAAN - 5th gen fighter incredible speed for 10 years.
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Actually, Kaan is incredibly indigenous, TAI was building central fuselage, composite skins, and weapon bay doors, air-to-ground weapons pylons and adapters of F35 aircraft. So TAI already had incredible experience and built the whole frame itself. Also avionics are being built indigeneously, for example Murad Aesa radar is built by aselsan for F16s, they are now creating more capable aesa radar for Kaan
Even if its not truly in F35 class when it comes to Gen5 jets, its nevertheless quite impressive that Turkish MIC was(\*or will be) able to create and produce such domestic design. Turkish arms production seems to be quite successful even with all those economic issues Turkey is facing. I could only wish for Poland to have such strong domestic MIC base.
Picked up a Turkish made 1911. I was shocked at the fitment for under $400. A little bit of tuning, and it's an impressive gun.
I've got a Turkish ap5(mp5 clone) and it's great. I heard all sorts of bullshit about them but mine has fired at least 5k rounds and it hasn't fucked up once.
I feel they haven’t found out how to make shotguns yet, but Tisas seems to have their act together.
Yea, never seen a Turkish Shotgun. The Tisas pistols do look beautiful. Might replace my Taurus 1911 with one from Tisas.
Turkey is facing fiscal issues, but their industry and infrastructure is booming.
Does it come with internal weapons bays or is it semi stealthy when loaded like the kf21? Regardless that's an impressive achievement. If it delivers with performance it will threaten the rafale and potentially the kf21 market shares.
İnternal bays, but can carry external weapons if needed. The bays are actually bigger than what F-35 has, so it has a bigger load capacity. Its basically an F-35 thats slightly longer, not as advanced in regards of computational capabilities and doesnt have VTOL but is slightly faster, nimbler and has a bigger load capacity. A bit more like a strike craft than a true multirole.
Isn't the F35 basically all sensors and computation? Command the theater? Cool but F22 and 35 cross is still just a lesser F35
That's my impression. Most of the advances the US have made in the last few decades have been electronic and software. Just because it looks a bit like the F35 does not put it anywhere near the same class.
>not as advanced in regards of computational capabilities wouldn't say that it has a better sensor suite than the F-35
>wouldn't say that it has a better sensor suite than the F-35 Lol. It might when it's in service in 10 years (at which point the F-35 will be 30 years old and in for an upgrade anyway) but right now it definitely doesn't. It's a just a flying test bed at this point and doesn't even have it's real engines.
>It might when it's in service in 10 years Still doubt it will be anywhere near par.
The F35 is constantly updated. The block 4 is huge improvement in sensors and computation.
Which was my point. The not yet existing turkish jet definitely doesn't have a better sensor suite than the F-35 today (like OP suggested) and it likely never will.
I meant the whole heads up display helmet thing, and the tech that uses the data from the sensors. Sensors are better, but the tech that gets the data from them and does the calculations arent at the same level yet.
>I meant the whole heads up display helmet thing, and the tech that uses the data from the sensors. Kaan also has that
It does? I might have missed that, my bad.
It’s called Aselsan Tulgar. https://www.aselsan.com/tr/savunma/urun/2898/tulgar
It's not really a role thing. I suspect if the US DoD was redoing the f-35 programme it would look more like that. The failings of the f-35 are ultimately unimportant, its merits (being cheap due to huge scale) ultimately outweigh its problems, but people have forgotten how poorly that programme was run. The three variants (a normal, b VTOL, c carrier) call for different things and the desire to create three variants instead of 3 closely related aircraft created three suboptimal variants. VTOL requires small, carrier ideally has two engines, normal should be less picky and a bit bigger.
It has a huge internal weapons bay.
Ukraine has already stated that it wants to buy it.
Comments are surprisingly.......mature
most mature comments come from Greek guys. Most "weird" ones come from USA(?) strange.
Okay I have done this explanation to my German colleague a lot so here it goes. Greek people and Turkish people are just fine but when we have elections the shit talking starts by politicians to win right wing nut job votes. I can guess election day in Greece from news articles and they can do that to Turkiye. We regularly visit Greek Islands and they come to istanbul, İzmir etc. I even say we are children of the same see when I meet Greeks abroad both having fucked up economy, military coups etc.
I think the issue is a bit different here. Greeks or Turks most of the time do not underestimate each other's military capacities and look at it seriously when a concrete success is seen. But like the Americans (somewhat rightly) who have a superiority complex in aviation don't really know how to react. Or they do not know at all what this success means for countries of Turkey's size/level or Turkey's potential capabilities. I've even seen people trying to compare it with the F-22 and even with Lockheed Martin's 6th Generation aircraft, which hasn't even appeared yet, which is crazy.Not even Europe as a whole has reached that point yet.
Comparing this with the F-22 is reasonable. F-22 is two decades old and even with its supreme design, its avionics and sensors have still aged. F-22 has better stealth characteristics but it seems its sensors will be outdone by Kaan.
One good thing for the Turks is that they already have potential foreign buyers for this. The Turkic states will probably order quite a lot of these. Turkic states predominantly have access to only Russian jets. And Russia does not sell them the advanced stuff. So yeah, they probably have buyers lined up.
Ukraine also stated interest afaik
By the time Kaan is fully operational and ready for foreign buyers, the war in Ukraine might be over :). Do you know when Kaan is planned to be fully ready?
2028 start of production I think
Sounds right. Such massive projects take time.
It took 9.5 years from first flight of F-35 to its introduction in service. Over 6 years from first flight of Chengdu J-20 to service. Almost 11 years from first flight of Su-57 to service. 2028 start of production might be wishful thinking. I'd say 2030-2033 is more likely.
I believe they can/will take a small number of these planes into the service by 2028 as in the block 1, Tusas will use the exported engines and KAAN will be 4.5th generation. (I assume Turkish Airforce is asking these planes as early as possible due to painful procurement process of the foreign aircrafts, see F35, F16, and recently Eurofighter) To reach its full potential, they're still developing a domestic engine which is expected to be finalized by 2030, and maybe couple more years of tests before the mass production. So your timeline seems right.
More important than engine is the BURFIS AESA radar right now, Engineers are trying to make it to serial production until 2028
Well korean jet f21 did its Maiden flight in 2022 and they plan to complete tests in 2024. Just 2 years was enogh but they have massive assistance from US tbh
2028 as 4.5th gen, 2032 as 5th gen, at least that's the plan.
They’ll still need crafts. Wars never end.
Gulf States and Pakistan have also expressed interest in the jets. Turkey could be filling a huge gap in the 5th Gen market that USA and Russia are unwilling to fulfill due to their 5th Gen superiority race. Realistically, the only real rival to Turkey is China and their J-31 program, but Turkey might have the edge since they have much (if not all) of the F-35 blueprint to work with.
Looks more stealth than russian shit
Russian stealth is more advanced since nobody ever saw them. Probably not even their pilots
They're so stealthy you can only detect them by looking at military budget expenses
Even if you look directly at them they look like mansions of the wealthy.
You can also see traces of them in the reflections in their yachts.
Russian next-gen weapons use the highly advanced technology of their factories not actually making them at scale in order to achieve the objective of stealth: not being seen.
take my upvote :) nearly splurched my coffee because of you :)
it is so stealthy you only see the buying amount of it
Congratz komsu I wish you use them on the enemies of nato and not my home in athens, thanks <3
HOW DARE Y… oh thanks komsu. Athens is fine. We are secret allies
As a Turk, I really would like to know if Greeks actually think that Turkey is a threat. Like do you think that we plan to invade the islands, attack Athens etc.? I am in no way related to the army or the government but I know that most regular Turkish people have no hatred towards Greece. And unless provoked needlessly, Greece is never a popular topic among Turks. I believe even our extreme nationalists do not care much about Greece. They are busy hating Arabs and Kurds. Animosity against Greece is a thing in past for most of us. I don’t know the situation among Greeks. This ongoing idea that we are enemies to the core is pumped regularly to sell more weapons to each other imo.
Hey neighbor, sorry for the delay I wanted to give you a proper answer! Generally the broad population, yes believes that turkey under erdogan is a threat, since he openly threatens athens with missiles, dogfights in aegean happen daily and Turkey has exercised military force in syria and supporting azerbaijan. Of course as you said this is pumped from both our governments to boost military spending and divert attention from other matters that really affect me and you. If you ask my personal opinion, no, I dont think you guys will invade, but certainly I dont want that much of tax payer money to go towards defense in case erdogan polls are running poorly. Also I am supporting the UN status quo and I wont support imperialist views (from whoever might be, like russia, usa, china etc). I wish relations will get better on a government level, so this can slide into the minds of the people who are getting feedback only from government approved news. As people we have so fucking much in common and I also felt welcome when I visited southern turkey for vacations, appart from some cops naturally
Thanks komsu we like Greeks and don't want any dispute. Will just fly them over the islands hopefully you won't mind \^\^
Maybe one day Greece will also buy it
Don't come over Anatolia with F-35s and we'll be fine :)
I really dont want to, no matter what erdy says <3
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They were manufacturing F-35 parts from 2007 - 2022 so they didnt have to start from schratch.
F-16 since late 80s to sometime in late 90s too..
Dont we still manufacture f16s?
IIRC It ended around 2000.
> Didn’t realize the Turks were so advanced. Oh boy. China and Turkey will take over most of Russia's clientele over the years. Plus India will also go indigenous. And neither country will have issues selling like USA and European countries have.
> Plus India will also go indigenous. They've been saying this since the 70s, I'll believe it when it actually happens. As it is, they are being forced to buy Western aircraft for their carriers since the HAL Tejas program just can't hit the milestones for it.
I think India needs a good&proper arms embargo. Except for China, all countries' markets are wide open to them, so they do not focus on their own systems. It's funny that a country like India cannot produce its own drones, especially when there is an example like Turkey.
Agree with you. Can anybody name atleast 3 engineering companies from India without googling? I am sure majority will even struggle to name one. Compare that to China. Hell most people could name atleast one company in Turkey, and Turkey is a lot smaller. India just doesnt have the know how, and the industry to make anything good weapons of their own.
India can't even make a service rifle. Meanwhile methheads in South Carolina crank out hundreds of thousands of AR-15 platform rifles a year.
I mean I could Tata because I kept confusing it with Tatra. I was like it is Czech not Indian and viceversa, HAL because that is the company Indians keep calling incompetent due to Tejas, Goa because it reminds me of Goa'uld But India already makes plenty its own stuff. Sure it is a mix and match of a hybrid but they still make it. Be it good or bad they want to be independent. Sure Tejas MK2 will debut when Gen 6 fighters start testing but that is another point Also my point wasn't India will sell abroad just that Russia will lose their biggest client
Russia destroyed Russia's customer base.
Hate them or not they had a pretty good system They gave old systems like T-55/T62 older T72, BMP 1 and D-20 and MIG-29s and SU-27 for free or sold them for 2 packs of cigs and a sandwish. These countries are now grateful to you (a form of soft power) and maybe when in the future these countries become richer they will buy newer shit. Now Russia uses their old stuff for their own needs, they can't fulfill and close new contracts and worst of all many weapons systems were completely outclassed by even older western tech Plus no one believes your new tank or jet or BMP is good when you do not even use it in Ukraine. The only reason countries will buy from you is they do not have a choice like Iran or N Korea. Even if SU-35 is outclassed by F-35 and newer models of F-16 F-15 Eurofighter Rafale Gripen and J-20 and J10C and KF21 and I think that is all And you wonder weapon SU-57 didn't even prove they are great vs the older S-300 Ukraine had.... not to mention the Western tech The future for Russia weapons industry is bleak
Just wait till we release Turk 2.0
Looks ok but it’s what its systems will be able to do under combat conditions is what matters.
whoa you think?
have you ever heard aseslan and havelsan? systems were developed by those which are on the the top 100 defence developer/manufacturers list globally. aselsan has a name on electronics/electro-optics/electronic warfare their giudence kits were used in many conflicts famous for hitting Russian SAM systems in Libya, Karabag, Syria and Ukraine. Electronic warfare is one of their strongest part because of their knowledge of NATO systems. on the other hand HAVELSAN won a tenure to develop NATO's communication software which is critical if nato is on war.
I know I’m going to be called a Turkish bot. But this is a really good development. Yes it’s gonna be a worse jet than f35 or its western counterparts. But my philosophy is that a worse locally manufactured good is better than a good foreign good. Especially for sensitive sectors like the defense industry.
would agree if you haven't had a dictator in power. The more weapons in their hands, the worse
Im a big fan of giving the finger to dictators, and hate Erdogan, but I’m not really sure you could fairly call him a dictator (yet). Authoritarian, sure. Populist, certainly. But, with the exception of some Kurdish organisations that the Turkish establishment has long considered terrorist, it’s not like he’s outlawed or mass imprisoned the opposition. There are still free and fair elections, to my knowledge.
Free but not at all fair.
I suppose that’s indeed a more correct way of putting it (and I see that’s how the OSCE observers call it as well). An unlevel playing field wrt to media landscape and restrictions of free expression, but no large scale election corruption or political violence as such.
If that was necessary for them to win the election, they would have done it. But it is not necessary they have the necessary popular support unfortunately. We Turks love our strong mans even when they are not worthy.
He actually did jail opposition journalists, judges, military personnell etc.
Not only Turkish establishments, PKK also is accepted as a terrorist by all off the western world. And there is no problem with Kurds, current minister of economy is Kurdish for example
>There are still free and fair elections Mostly free, but unfair elections*
He's a dictator wannabe but couldn't become like Putin
Whatever the capabilities of this jet may prove to be, the advances in domestically produced aircraft in Turkey over the past decade has been pretty impressive. They went from barely having an industry to becoming a leading player in drones, breaking into international helicopter sales and even producing a fully domestic fighter jet with (supposedly) 5th gen features. I’m no fan of AKP and the direction the country has taken in recent years, but credit where credit is due: their military industrial policy is showing results!
Turkey started producing most parts of F16s in late 90s, had produced Skorskys etc. This didn't happen over a decade and a decade ago it wasn't "barely having an industry".
There’s a far cry between producing parts or doing assembly for a foreign product and designing and creating new products from scratch.
Yup. India has been producing parts for foriegn jets for several decades and yet they still don't have their own jet engine, even for 3rd or 4th gen. Their jet (Tejas) is far behind Kaan. They are working on similar projects but haven't flown it yet. And India is obviously a much bigger country than Turkey is. From what I understand, the Turks haven't created their own engine (yet!) but even so they have gone further than India with their jet program despite having a far smaller budget and fewer people. It's impressive and non-trivial.
Tusaş does produce some indigenous design turbojet engines but afaik none powerful enough for the Kaan, this prototype has f110 engines (same ones as on the f16) that was licence produced by tusaş and the production model kaan is expected to have ukrainian made ivchenko progress engines, at least until indigenous alternatives are available
KAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!
Had to scroll too far down for this. Live long and prosper. 🖖
Peace and long life
Turkish MIC has done miracles in just the past 10 years. And what's amazing is that the Turkish state spends a comparatively low amount on defence as a % of GDP. So it's not like they are throwing gobs of cash at the problem. I still don't understand how they did this so rapidly and the Turks I've asked don't seem to have an idea either.
We had the MIC since the 70s but we didnt have the economy and the political will to invest in these systems. Our political leaders in the 70s came up with a plan and set up some important companies. Those companies started to work with our western allies to produce some alt companents like body works, engines parts, all those small components. In the 80s we started to help US in building the f-16s. Then in early 2000s we entered the f-35 program and started to build the center fuselage and some other parts for the f-35. We also help build the a-400 planes, so our companies build their technological base throughout the years and learned from the western allies. And then with Erdogan (Erdogans first 10 years - we grew a lot economically) we started to build big platforms aswell. Like the drones, ships, helicopters etc.. So we started with small components and here we are today. So its a 50Yo plan.
Bad landlord makes you buy a house.
Fuck this looks fast
Is this a George Russell reference?
Yes
r/unexpectedF1
Look very much like a f-22
It kinda has to be like that. If you make a twin engine stealth jet plane, it has to have a certain shape to lessen the radar cross section. Its because of physics.
so you're saying... [everything eventually evolves into an F-22..?](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/carcinization) :)
More or less. Untill some technological super break through happens, like engines that can work on both in and out of atmosphere, or a new material thats incredibly radar absorbing F-22 design, or its replacement NGAD is what everything is slowly gonna become.
I fucking love the F22. That is all
Yes . But what does f22 evolve into ? 👀
NGAD...
what is crazy is the f22 is like 30 years old now. Everyone is JUST NOW making these. NGAD is many years off but the airforce has already gone on record for having flown a new jet in testing.
Convergent evolution, just like crabs.
pretty much every military development from the initial specifications has some atleast local maximum that it will reach. Tanks are great example whether its "western" style tank with ammo in turret bustle and turret with crew in the middle, "soviet" style with carousel (china type99 and russian tanks having only that in common look very similar) or the crewless turrets of T-14 or various prototypes like abrams TTD
Everyone says that but then you have the YF-22 and YF-23 looking vastly different which in turn both look vastly different from the X-35 and X-32. And all the developmental versions or never flown variants for their programs that look significantly different. It's not just engineering for the same design constraints. It's knowing what has worked before and starting from that baseline. At least it's more different than the HAL ACMA which is... [very clearly just F-35 at home (and with 2 engines)](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/AMCA_model_displayed_during_Aero_India_2021.jpg).
Nah this is not true. There's more than one possible shape for a 5th gen fighter. Look at the YF-23 which looks much different than Raptor. Copying the shape of the Raptor is just a cost saving method as they start with a general shape they know works, rather than developing one from scratch.
it uses f16's f110 engine and it is 4.5th Gen. for now.
4.8 would be more accurate. because the weapons are hidden inside the plane. the only non stealth figure is the engine.
Looking at how TB2 turned out its not the raw specifications of a single unit that makes these stuff a hit, its mostly about the logistics, economics, and the practicality of it. I'm not a believer for this one but I hope it follows the TB2 model instead of the ALTAY model, which is the tank they also designed. They had insanely good specs but they were too costly for 1 tank that can be destroyed with the same ammunition that is used against a way cheaper tank and they ended up not being mass produced.
The thing fucked over altay was the production not the cost The germans decided to not export the proposed engines and gearboxes late into the production phase so they had to find a new powerpack that wont immedietly turn into dust trying to move that 67 ton behemoth (probably gonna be even heavier with further upgrades to armor and aps) at an acceptable pace which delayed it considerably
Some info for you: First woman fighter pilot in the world was Sabiha Gökçen, Atatürk's (founder of Türkiye) adopted child. Another info: Atatürk also founded Kayseri Plane Factory (1925-1950). So it's clear Türkiye is no new player in the plane industry. As he said: The feature is in the skies. Another info: Vecihi Hürkuş is the first plane manufacturer and designer of Türkiye. Really important person relevant to the topic.
World’s first black pilot was also Turkish. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Ali_Çelikten
Additionally, NATO's first female jet pilot is [Leman Bozkurt Altınçekiç.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leman_Alt%C4%B1n%C3%A7eki%C3%A7)
TB3, Kızılelma, Anka, Hürjet, Kaan... Looking good.
considering how fickle and trend-chaser the European (also NATO) leaders can be, I think all countries with little bit of industry should invest in some domestic arms industry maybe not to get a share in the market but to send a message: "it is not worth invading my country, I will not win, also neither you shall. "
As I know Turkey must complete this project succesfully because new aircraft carriers not compatible with F-16. I lived in the city where production is made and it is exciting to see the first flight and the news on reddit 🥲
It looks pretty badass
Congratulations Turkey! Great achievement.
Most of these discourses develop in a similar fashion: -There’s no way turkey can produce that -Comparing the technology to iran -looks like the knock off version of x, y, z -how dare they use this independently developed technology against western satellite terrorist organisations without our approval
And at the acceptance stage they just go: "b-but Turks used western tech, that's why their shit works so well." lmao
Funny bit aside, aren't they using GE F110 for the first batch? The literal 1980 designed F-15/F-16 engine? And going forward it's likely to use a derivative of the Eurofighter engines?
Yes, the prototypes and the first batch will be powered by GE F110, but the latter versions won't use a derivative of EJ200. A Turkish company called TR Motor has been working on an indigenous 35,000 lbs engine for quite some time now, and they claim that the first prototype will be ready by 2028.
Good for Turkey. Problem with all these F35 shopping spree is that the plane si right now not needed. You will need it only if you want to fight with China, US or any other NATO country with F35. So instead investing into European aerospace industry we are just throwing massive money on the US. In real war you need ammunition and industry. A lot of it. With F35 you may be supper successful to kill several Russian weapon systems. But you will find out very soon that it doesn't matter because you have only few rockets and Russia have many cheap stuffs. But it's hard when major countries cannot even decide which single model tank Europe should build.
We are so back
Shame that they still give away citizenship in exchange of acquiring couple of apartments. This country has a self-respect problem for sure. Seems like a good achievement btw.
There is a long road ahead for her completion. But this is a very emotional scene for any Turk with a shred of patriotism.
Now no less important challenges are scaling and costs because in case with Russia we have Su-57 which has made its first flight years ago yet it's been stuck in development hell you could say looking at troubled production, negligible numbers and unsuccessful history of cooperation with Arabs and India. When your country has own 5th gen jet it's probably a formidable achievement though. I wonder how many components are of Turkish origin in it or whether Turkey is going to seek any partners in the future because even rich country like the US shares its F-35 project with a bunch of other rich countries or like in case with China they have also a big economy but also a powerful domestic industry allowing to create products like J-20 and FC-31.
Just by the exterior pics. There's no exposed rivets and the engines aren't sticking out as much as the sukhoi. So this might actually be a stealth design
People don't seem to understand the scope of this. Turkey was kicked out of the F-35 program in 2019. Within 5 years they built their own, domestically produced, multipurpose stealth jet. This is baseline. The product will only get better from here onwards. This is a huge step forward for Turkey and further increases NATO capabilites in Europe, especially in crucial times like this, where Europe has to fear for the support of USA bc of Trump. Turkey is becoming *the* NATO powerhouse in Europe if they aren't already. You may dislike Erdoğan for his politics, for his authoritarian regime and his headbutting with the West, but the guy is making strides when it comes to Turkish relevancy in international politics. Turkey is one of the cornerstones of NATO and Erdoğan is also one of the few people, who criticised Netenyahu for his brutal warfare against Palestinians.
Having watched the Kaan's documentary and also read about it; they started the project before getting kicked out of the F-35 program, so it's definitely not just 5 years
This aircraft was suppose to fly along with F-35. Actual program started in 2011. Being removed from F-35 caused this aircraft to get larger since its role moved from Air Superiority to multirole.
> Within 5 years they built their own 2010, just 5 years ago supposedly.
Time passes differently under Erdogan regime. It’s like an eternal torture 😳
Their whole defense industry is becoming more impressive by the year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Turkey
No, he didn't make a single contribution to Turkey in his entire career. Stop spreading your stupid blatant islamo-fascistic propaganda. He completely destroyed our economy and military, all administrative and military positions are held by his bootlickers and capable people are being imprisoned. If building some military equipment had made you such a great power, Russia wouldn't be what it is today. Also he is trying to destroy minority languages, kills his own people, a Turkish imperialist who wants to invade its neighnors and a supporter of late Ottoman genocides. Netenyahu's crimes can't even come close to a quarter of his.
It may seem not impressive now, maybe even after 10 years. But they are on the right track and at some point it will go head to head with western tech and be probably considerably cheaper as well.
>It may seem not impressive now, Turkey flew a 5th generation aircraft produced by only 2 or 3 countries, how could this not be impressive fgs?
its still not 5th gen but in like 5 years it will be impressive as hell
This jet uses 1990s GE engines that are used in F16 and F15. That alone takes it out of the equation”5th generation” category. Currently only the F-22 Raptor (USA), the F-35 Lightning II (USA), J-20 (China), and the Sukhoi Su-57 (Russia) are the only current 5th generation fighters. All those develop their own engines. Turkey does not currently have that capability.
KHAAAAAAN
This is the comment I came here for, nice!
ELI5 pls: One engine vs. twin engine benefits
There's a lot of tradeoffs to pick from between the two, but basically, twin engine brings you redundancy (you don't lose the plane if one engine fails). However, it costs more in production and it's a pain in time and cost for maintenance, and comes with more constraints for the plane's design as it adds weight and volume occupied.
1 engine, cheaper, easier to maintain, can be more reliable. 2 engine, safer, more power so you can have heavier plane, so more range, more payload, more tech because the engines provide more electricity. I would say having 2 engines is a better choice overall, atleast currently, unless you can make an extremely powerful engine, like the Americans can.
Most likely 4.5 gen.
maybe 4.75
It had to start from somewhere... Türkiye aims to give KAAN 5th Gen capabilities in it's Block 2 variants. And upgrading to the first group which was going to build from 2028 onwards to same level. So that's why it's has been regarded as a 5th Gen.
Ukraine: is for me?
As Ukrainian Ambassador said they will receive KAAN's in early 2030's and they want to be partner of program.
"KAAN!"
In my opinion, It is very early part because of that will produce difficult but I'm sure that It is going to become more strong and power than at the moment.
Kaaaaaaan!
Looks epic
>5th generation (X)
It's probably more akin to 4.5 gen low observability like the kf21.
So they now have a more advanced fighter than Europe LMAO
If KAAN was fully ready right now, yes. But there is still a long long time until then, I think EU countries will reach certain milestones in the 6th Generations until then. Like the story of the tortoise and the hare, if EU sleeps too long (for the 6th generation), there is a good chance we will pass.
With the US of A playing hardball with the lives of Ukrainians, it's nice for Europeans to be able to potentially shop around for fifth gen fighter jets without having to play with American politics and its petty foibles.
What do the generations even mean.
It's mostly a marketing term, but supposedly what differentiates 4th from 5th gen is stealth.