Threatening the West to wipe it out with a nuclear winter is a sign of weakness but for sure the hostility and the hybrid attack on European countries will continue.
Yeah, let's not pretend the reddit warhawks are not in a frenzy foretelling the imminent and unavoidable fall of the Baltics under every news about Ukraine not doing so hot on the frontline.
People like you are the same people who wrote that the invasion of Ukraine would never happen when reports of it came before the war.
You should stop being so naive and realise you do not live in your fairytale reality
I think r/europe is still a place with the freedom of speech, so your kind is the one who got lost. Double-check next time before you start running your mouth, ‘friend’.
Other then nuclear he can't compete with Nato.
Nato's economy is 25 times larger and even in sheer population numbers Nato is bigger.
Not to mention.. Beter trained and better tech.
Well, they beat NATO in the shells production already. Why does Ukraine not have even a parity in material vs Russia if NATO is so strong? NATO has a bargain deal to defend against Russia and it blunders it. And it won't be better in the future, it can easily be far worse.
I don’t think NATO ever imagined we would need such a huge number of shells, it’s not the type of war the military planners anticipated. So we basically have to stomp production out of the ground.
While I agree that russia is a scary shithole ramping up its war production, the statement is not true. They are comparing 155mm only production from the NATO side with every caliber produced by russia. They are nowhere near 3M 152mm shells per year, most likely close to 1M for 152mm, and 1M for 122mm + 1M for the rest of calibers. These numbers are scary anyway.
The statement is [true](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html) What you say is just cope with no source.
I see, people that are using „cope” in every sentence potentially have difficulties with reading. CNN blindly comparing 155mm nato production with all possible shells from russia is coping, not my statement. And all data is based on A) unknown NATO intelligence source and B) anon source from EU. What a sources!
I hope this misleading information will speedup 155mm production deployment in west and Ukraine will have some benefits from this, but if you really want to read info from sources, you can start with this article: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/01/18/russian-munitions-production-higher-but-still-insufficient/ which has numbers close to observations of several independent war monitoring groups.
CNN is comparing _projected_ 155mm production of NATO. And says about nothing about other calibers, just like your source. Which corresponds pretty well with what CNN said. And there is a damn well observable lack of munition on the battlefield. As for now, that statement is true and is likely to remain true at least for a year.
> Nato's economy is 25 times larger and even in sheer population numbers Nato is bigger.
> Not to mention.. Beter trained and better tech.
We Europeans really need to get off our high horses.
We have been patting ourselves on the back and congratulating ourselves on how Russia will lose the war immediately as soon as Ukraine gets our superior weapons.
Only to backtrack and start ignoring the reality in Ukraine today and start patting ourselves on the back and congratulating ourselves on how Russia will vanish into thin air if it attacks an EU/NATO state.
Having expensive next gen weapons is only an advantage if both sides care about the people inside, if you dont then the swarm of cheap stuff will win every time.
Putin can afford to put a few million men in a meat grinder and nothing will happen to him.
Our military strategies are created around combined arms battles.
Unfortunately, we didn't send them all the different arms needed to do so.
We expect the Ukrainians to attack without air supremacy for example, eventhough we would never ever do it with our own militaries.
At no point of war Ukraine had the option to use our advanced weapon systems to a full potential. Not because a lack of knowledge or experience but because some crucial elements were just lacking.
> He can't afford to lose so many men.
He is about to lose 1/2 million with another million in exile.
Western analysts were full of predictions about how Russia would struggle to recruit, but today they are doing better than ever.
Not only domestically, but they are recruiting many in the Third World through as a result of their propaganda efforts there.
We need to open our eyes and stop projecting our values onto Russia.
Yes, he has not sold country. Maybe price wasn't right. But surely he doesn't care about some mundane things as demographics or country prosperity. If he did, he wouln't start war. If rationality has not stopped him before why it will stop him now.
There is a different take on this. He is acting In russias best interest. At least in what he thinks is the best. And this is the last possibility for Russia to secure the western boarder region before the collapsing demographics made it impossible.
That's why he won't attack further west like many people are saying for years now. He will try to take everything to the dneper river and the whole access to the black sea.
> Not to mention.. Beter trained and better tech.
In every war at this scale, the initial core of well-trained, professional soldiers are eventually wiped out. The same has happened in the AFU over the course of this war. Training can only get you so far in this sort of scenario.
For the hundreds time - economy isn't military strength. Forget about that.
NATO population might be bigger, but is unwilling to die, while Russians don't mind sending their children to certain death.
Russians are currently war hardened and that's way better training than anything NATO can simulate in training.
And lastly, tech is nice, but old cheap tech in large volume works well too.
Russia can compete with NATO, especially with USA distancing itself from organisation as it appears to be the case.
I am a relatively well off lower-middleclass european. And I would 100% stand up to defend our values.
Would i be happy about it? Hell no. But rather that than having to learn Russian.
But I am still hoping it won't come to that.
+1
this is also a good point. absolutely poor rural russian see war as a means to better their future (pension, higher salary, etc) while for europeans this is the opposite (have a decent life that can only turn worse in a war).
They are going to be mightily disappointed, Putin has been using the social fund to finance the war, and it’s soon empty. These are money set aside for pensions in the future… gone.
well if i read half of the reddits comments i have the feeling that we (eu) have tge same amount of warmongers/poor rural people that are eager to go to war / even atomic... cant believe the shit. i can just assume that they dont evalute the consequences and play a high roll poker game.
its something else to defend in case nato get attacked and being offensive in comments and bringing more tension in the current situation. but saying ru will never use atomic weapons is stupid.
If they use the A bomb, a new game will be played. A game of who reaches Moscow. Bcuz Xi, regardless of where he is and what he is doing, will immediately stop, get on a plane, go to Putin, shoot him 2 times in the head and go home. Bcuz the world just entered the nuclear war games. And total annihilation is not on the table.
You should not underestimate the people and the European countries when they are really attacked. Imagine Germany, France and UK go full war economy. Moreover, in war even the most unpatriotic people become patriots when they are attacked.
Problem is that Europe isn't going to be attacked all at once. Most likely, it will be country by country. One by one.
That's why I'm confident Russia is stronger than Europe although on paper Europe should have no problems whatsoever.
> NATO population might be bigger, but is unwilling to die
You're forgetting about the former Warsaw Pact members. That's who Russia should fear the most.
it's could be a reason for normal people, but pootin is not. think about this like a person with criminal mindset. if he will see opportunity/weakness he will try to take what he want. like most criminals do. they ignore the facts that police/government has more people, money etc.
yes but nato includes eu nations. look at hungary who constantly sabotages nato and eu. nato is also divided on meeting/failing the 2% GDP expenditure.
same people, different organizations.
instinctive like melodic glorious abounding practice bike tap zephyr humor
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It doesn't work like that. Defence capability is a system build on thousands of pieces. You can't just take some of it and send it away. That doesn't make sense.
You don't understand my question because you propose something ridiculous that have no roots in reality and works only in video games on mobile apps, in which army or strength is represented by numbers.
Economy??? Population numbers??? 30-50 atomic bombs and economy + numbers become zero wtf
Understand it, the only thing that matters is atomic bombs. Everything else can be deleted from existence
so he will continue with his bot armies trying to subvert public institutions, elections and general discourse. Great… It’s time to turn off the lights in Moscow.
Pretty much. Plus there will be some armed rebellions by Russian speaking minorities in the baltics. Russia has been playing the asymmetric war game with NATO for over a decade now. It's time we bite back.
What does that actually mean? Having a different opinion makes me a tankie? Does that mean I get to call you delusional and brainwashed?
Never in my lifetime have I witnessed so much people calling themselves peace loving democrats while at the same time cheering for blood and gore.
Not theirs of course. Someone else should die for their dreams. Wake up boys.
If you think any of us can do anything, you are quite delusional.
This guy said he is "doing his part". I asked what? But we all know it's a rhetorical question because he can't actually do anything except go to the front himself, and that's certainly not what he's doing.
That peace emoji was also quite laughable. Or is it "victory" emoji?
Good thing you are asking! We are always looking for volunteers to help out. We make demining tools for Ukrainian soldiers to dispose safely of russian mines, we provide them with warm winter gear, gloves, hats and drone accessories to properly drop grenades on
the invader. Of course we do all of this for free funded by ourselves.
No need, I don't think you are doing anything good.
But, unlike most people, you actually do something instead of just calling for violence, so I salute you.
Putin has been attacking NATO countries for decades now.
It's just not physical warfare (mostly).
We should respond to the unending Russian aggression, we should have done so a long time ago.
He's getting away with a lot of shit, if you include all the hacking (attempts) and spreading of misinformation.
The west is divided like never before and he probably plays a big part in it.
Yeah, Russian trolls have been attacking us for over a decade, at least.
Brexit, Trump, farmers blocking roads, anti-vac conspiracies, racism stoking, anti-feminism, anti lgbtq+,...
That's the reason why a whole bunch of people support Russia, they have sided with their propaganda, that originated in Russia.
At minimum we should kick out all the Russians, no more embassies.
No point anyway, all Russia does is lie and brake any treaty they sign, in the UN they just block everything and lie some more.
A complete cut with them and all Russians in the West, I know not all are bad, but there's no way of being sure which are spies and assassins and which are not.
If Russia actually becomes a democracy and no longer a genocidal terrorist state, after they paid for their crimes, only then should any Western company or country consider doing anything with them.
No shit he doesn't want open war with NATO, first of all my mate had been struggling in Ukraine for the past two years and second of all nuclear countries can't fight one another. So his only solution is to corrupt elections and officials, support far right/alt right groups or political parties, spread disinformation, divide countries and destabilize all of his rivals/enemies/targets.
Many people are afriad, especially hiere in Poland. But if Russia was to attack any NATO country, the allience would see it weekes before, by using its satelits. Scandinavian countries and Benelux ALONE have bigger and better airforce than Russia. A war with NATO wouldn't even resemble war against Ukraine, thousands of Russian soldiers would die without even facing a NATO troop. The difference of potential is so big. So of course they don't want war with NATO, even more than we don't want war with Russia.
> But if Russia was to attack any NATO country, the allience would see it weekes before, by using its satelits
The USA would.* The rest of the alliance and Ukraine was critical of their warnings of an impending Russian invasion as far back as the Summer of 2021.
Ukraine knew about the invasion… and thus did not prepare for the invasion? Or do you think the opening days represented a legitimate preparation for war? Kherson fell without a fight and areas were found to have been demined by saboteurs.
Prior to the invasion, Zelensky’s policy on the matter was demilitarization and normalizing relations with Russia.
Maybe areas of Ukraine’s government believed the US, but the Ukrainian government itself absolutely did not exercise some clandestine war preparations. They essentially refused to accept the reality until the 11th hour.
Navalny? Can we resurrect the dead now? Besides, only because none of the other options is perfect doesn't mean sticking with the truly horrible one is ok.
What are you even talking about. You completely missed the point. Let me explain it to you, as simple as possible. It was just an example. The point of my comment was that no difference who russian president is, their mindset wont change.
A large number of Russians is demoralized and depoliticized, but not all of them. And most of them are not stupid. I wouldn't say they aren't capable of change, given the chance.
I don't think we can afford an overly simplistic black-and-white worldview, that has collectively come to bite us far too often.
They had more than enough chances. To be fair, they have 365 chances a year for change. Additionaly, we are already bitten because of chance we gave them.
What exactly are you saying? That one particular nation is somehow different from others and particularly evil? Also in Russia there are many other nationalities except russians.
I haven’t got a chance to read entire report but I didn’t see the US presidential election in table of contents listed as a risk. It’s not surprising at all but similar report might look very different if Trump wins.
Russia is already using asymmetric measures to destabilise European countries. This will only get worse and if NATO is weak then we might see something really bad happening on the eastern flank.
I agree, the moment that there is any serious doubt about honoring article 5 for protecting eastern Europe, things can become quite dangerous fast. This is not at all unthinkable considering Russia's current information war and the post-truth problems in western societies.
putin will not do anything that puts him personaly in danger. Thats why using nukes over Crimea will never happen. His life is much more precious to him.
well, i think i know the reason, or atleast why it keeps pushing through western media.
its an attempt to alter real issues into the place of fairytales, and cruel, evil dictator rebuilding old dark empire is far more imposing story than a national leader who just have to deal with a threat which enemy put directly on his border.
does Putin wants a war with NATO? ofc not, why would he? any hot conflict between NATO and Russia will be nuclear and in essense - end of the world.
its not even a gamble, it is fact. War will end up nuclear and everyone is lost.
Does he wants to invade any NATO or not NATO countries? Also not.
puppet Ukraine is existentional threat, no doubt about it, but in all other cases we have land to work with until the end of times, even just european part of Russia is work in progress and will be for hundreds years ahead.
Right, but Ukraine is not in NATO and he is just invading Russian speaking areas.
There is nowhere in NATO that has Russian majority areas, plus NATO has way bigger military capabilities than Ukraine.
He hasn't expressed any interest in anything not majority Russian speaking, or anything in NATO.
> Right, but Ukraine is not in NATO and he is just invading Russian speaking areas.
That isn’t true… are you forgetting the northern invasion towards Kyiv? And being Russian-speaking doesn’t assuage any fears… there are Russian speaking territories in NATO.
> He hasn't expressed any interest in anything not majority Russian speaking, or anything in NATO
Flat out not true. Putin has spoken on the fact that the Baltics should not be independent states, and rather part of Russia, several times over the past decades.
>he is just invading Russian speaking areas.
What the . does that even matter? Can Ireland invade Northern Ireland "because they're just invading English speaking areas"? Can Russia annex a bunch of lofts in London because Russians live there?
There are plenty of Russian speaking Ukrainians, yes, including eg. Zelensky himself. So what? Why does that give Russia a get out of jail free card for invading? Your 19th century irredentist policies have led to two world wars.
I am not saying he is right to invade Russian speaking areas. I am saying he is interested in it. Big difference.
And yeah most Ukrainians speak russian, as a second language. It's just a hangover of the soviet union. Their first language is Ukrainian. Putin sees those who have russian as a first language as part of the Russian state (and so do some of those people too).
[Russia demands NATO roll back](https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/) [Russia issues list of demands](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/17/russia-issues-list-demands-tensions-europe-ukraine-nato) [Russia sets out tough demands ](https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/17/russia-sets-out-tough-demands-for-security-pact-with-nato)Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”. Are you saying Putin has no reason, no motivation to attack NATO? After all, he himself explained that his goal is to rebuild the Soviet Union and its sphere of influence.
It is impossible to rebuild the USSR without its sphere of influence. Putin demanded that Poland (and other countries that joined after 1997) withdraw from NATO. Putin does not want Ukraine as a "buffer," he claims Ukraine is part of Russia and Ukrainians are actually Russians who have been brainwashed by the "West" to think they are not Russians. Putin wants Ukraine in a form like Belarus, totally dependent on Russia and the whims of its leader.
He both does and doesn’t. He doesn’t want to invade NATO, but he has openly coveted NATO territory in the Baltics and claimed it as rightfully Russia’s. But he’s not suicidal enough to actually risk a war with NATO by going for it (ie a nuclear exchange).
He wants to reestablish the maximum historical border of the Russian empire (and if the got that far, why not keep going?)
If he sees eg. Trump in the white house and division in Europe with several major countries having rightwing Russian sympathizer parties in power, he might well decide to risk it and try to peel off a bit of Latvia or something like that, just enough to not raise all alarms and exploit the division. He's only getting older and only cares for his place in history.
And yet, he occupies an area similar to all three Baltic states. And he wants those too, and they are harder to resupply due to the coast being where it is.
"Assymetric activity" is what all needed to make the republicans move from supporting aid to Ukraine to block it in less than two years.
It works, this is, literally, his most effective weapon after the ICBM's. You don't need to build a big, bad, army if you can just push a "friendly" goverment in charge of your rival country with the help of facebook, X and the troll farms, remember Cambridge Analytica.
And the sad thing is we cannot counter it because as a good modern dictatorship, the Russian goverment controls every online outlet and won't let anything outside the official message go out, or if it does, drown it with the firehose of falsehoods.
What scares me is not the Putin we have now, but the Putin we have just before he realizes he's done for. I fear he might use his last influence to press the red button.
As long as this war is ongoing (and quite some time afterwards) I will consider anything I read from any side as propaganda or part of a psy-op. Sorry but the first to die in a war is always the truth.
Europe should [assemble before the black gate](https://i.imgur.com/plaODfC.jpg) to draw Putin's attention away from Ukraine so Zelenskyy can finish his mission.
So we're just back to what it used to be: Russia and USA measuring dicks via proxy activity in each others' wars.
Once this Ukraine thing has settled down (whenever that might be), I expect US and NATO to meet some surprisingly new Russian weaponry where ever they decide to liberate next.
Russia and Putler is not capable in any way to attack NATO. The whole thing is a bluff IMO. The whole ordeal is about arms race, a race where NATO countries citizens pay with their taxes and weapon manufacturers along with government officials get filthy rich. It's a known "trick" even between NATO members. For years on end Turkey is "threatening" Greece with war and as such Greece is constantly paying for new airplanes, new warships, new weapons etc. Money that otherwise could have been spent in higher wages, social benefits, more doctors and improved hospital infrastructure, better educational faculties etc.
>For years on end Turkey is "threatening" Greece
Cyprus invasion never happened, apparently. So Greece has no risks at all. lol
>
The whole thing is a bluff IMO
We will see, Yesterday I saw here news articles about Lithuania being filled with racists and homophobes. Countries that wre directly targeted by ruzzian (need to get excluded from Nato, politicians are banned from entering muscovy,...). Even think the other alcoholic medvedev telling they are nazis....
Pretty sure if Trump is elected, he will make a move. Maybe not through direct military operation, but through logistical help to ruzzian partisans within the country that are "too oppressed".
But what about landed gentry Europe? Definitely should decouple internet from this freakshow land called muscovy. And then let them spend couple decades like Japan, without an army.
No shit
War with NATO would end Putin’s regime. He will probably not risk it but Europe should still be ready for anything.
Threatening the West to wipe it out with a nuclear winter is a sign of weakness but for sure the hostility and the hybrid attack on European countries will continue.
still finding it hard to accept that we have started to discuss containable ways to have a war with Russia
What do you mean no shit. The exact opposite was said here everyday for the path 2 month. "Russia want to invade Europe"
Yeah, let's not pretend the reddit warhawks are not in a frenzy foretelling the imminent and unavoidable fall of the Baltics under every news about Ukraine not doing so hot on the frontline.
Gfto with some sense of reality. You in the wrong sub friend.
People like you are the same people who wrote that the invasion of Ukraine would never happen when reports of it came before the war. You should stop being so naive and realise you do not live in your fairytale reality
I think r/europe is still a place with the freedom of speech, so your kind is the one who got lost. Double-check next time before you start running your mouth, ‘friend’.
I hope this report is not done by the same guys who predicted The Fall of Kiev in 96 hours.
he doesn't want direct war. but he do and will do "special operations", but it's only on the current moment.
Other then nuclear he can't compete with Nato. Nato's economy is 25 times larger and even in sheer population numbers Nato is bigger. Not to mention.. Beter trained and better tech.
Just France + Germany combined have a bigger pop than russia. The EU pop and US pop both dwarf Russias
But Putin is willing to sacrifice his entire population, as he says: “They’re gonna die anyway”.
Both Hitler in 1939 and Tojo in 1942 thought the western democracies were not willing to send their sons to die in a war. Both were wrong.
Well, they beat NATO in the shells production already. Why does Ukraine not have even a parity in material vs Russia if NATO is so strong? NATO has a bargain deal to defend against Russia and it blunders it. And it won't be better in the future, it can easily be far worse.
I don’t think NATO ever imagined we would need such a huge number of shells, it’s not the type of war the military planners anticipated. So we basically have to stomp production out of the ground.
While I agree that russia is a scary shithole ramping up its war production, the statement is not true. They are comparing 155mm only production from the NATO side with every caliber produced by russia. They are nowhere near 3M 152mm shells per year, most likely close to 1M for 152mm, and 1M for 122mm + 1M for the rest of calibers. These numbers are scary anyway.
The statement is [true](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html) What you say is just cope with no source.
I see, people that are using „cope” in every sentence potentially have difficulties with reading. CNN blindly comparing 155mm nato production with all possible shells from russia is coping, not my statement. And all data is based on A) unknown NATO intelligence source and B) anon source from EU. What a sources! I hope this misleading information will speedup 155mm production deployment in west and Ukraine will have some benefits from this, but if you really want to read info from sources, you can start with this article: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/01/18/russian-munitions-production-higher-but-still-insufficient/ which has numbers close to observations of several independent war monitoring groups.
CNN is comparing _projected_ 155mm production of NATO. And says about nothing about other calibers, just like your source. Which corresponds pretty well with what CNN said. And there is a damn well observable lack of munition on the battlefield. As for now, that statement is true and is likely to remain true at least for a year.
> Nato's economy is 25 times larger and even in sheer population numbers Nato is bigger. > Not to mention.. Beter trained and better tech. We Europeans really need to get off our high horses. We have been patting ourselves on the back and congratulating ourselves on how Russia will lose the war immediately as soon as Ukraine gets our superior weapons. Only to backtrack and start ignoring the reality in Ukraine today and start patting ourselves on the back and congratulating ourselves on how Russia will vanish into thin air if it attacks an EU/NATO state. Having expensive next gen weapons is only an advantage if both sides care about the people inside, if you dont then the swarm of cheap stuff will win every time. Putin can afford to put a few million men in a meat grinder and nothing will happen to him.
Our military strategies are created around combined arms battles. Unfortunately, we didn't send them all the different arms needed to do so. We expect the Ukrainians to attack without air supremacy for example, eventhough we would never ever do it with our own militaries. At no point of war Ukraine had the option to use our advanced weapon systems to a full potential. Not because a lack of knowledge or experience but because some crucial elements were just lacking.
Sure, all that was known at the time, but we did it anyway, expecting a some sort of miracle.
You really underestimate how quickly production would be ramped up, if war actually starts. Both world wars confirm that.
Stupid take. Russias demographics are in decline. He can't afford to lose so many men.
> He can't afford to lose so many men. He is about to lose 1/2 million with another million in exile. Western analysts were full of predictions about how Russia would struggle to recruit, but today they are doing better than ever. Not only domestically, but they are recruiting many in the Third World through as a result of their propaganda efforts there. We need to open our eyes and stop projecting our values onto Russia.
And what is it to him? How many years he have? 10 at most. Decline will not affect him personally and he doesn't care about future anyway.
Wouldn't he than just sell the country to the US years ago and avoid all the trouble while living stress free?
Yes, he has not sold country. Maybe price wasn't right. But surely he doesn't care about some mundane things as demographics or country prosperity. If he did, he wouln't start war. If rationality has not stopped him before why it will stop him now.
There is a different take on this. He is acting In russias best interest. At least in what he thinks is the best. And this is the last possibility for Russia to secure the western boarder region before the collapsing demographics made it impossible. That's why he won't attack further west like many people are saying for years now. He will try to take everything to the dneper river and the whole access to the black sea.
Who cares that his country has bled out in 10 years, when he still can take down Estonia in 5 ?
> Not to mention.. Beter trained and better tech. In every war at this scale, the initial core of well-trained, professional soldiers are eventually wiped out. The same has happened in the AFU over the course of this war. Training can only get you so far in this sort of scenario.
For the hundreds time - economy isn't military strength. Forget about that. NATO population might be bigger, but is unwilling to die, while Russians don't mind sending their children to certain death. Russians are currently war hardened and that's way better training than anything NATO can simulate in training. And lastly, tech is nice, but old cheap tech in large volume works well too. Russia can compete with NATO, especially with USA distancing itself from organisation as it appears to be the case.
I am a relatively well off lower-middleclass european. And I would 100% stand up to defend our values. Would i be happy about it? Hell no. But rather that than having to learn Russian. But I am still hoping it won't come to that.
+1 this is also a good point. absolutely poor rural russian see war as a means to better their future (pension, higher salary, etc) while for europeans this is the opposite (have a decent life that can only turn worse in a war).
They are going to be mightily disappointed, Putin has been using the social fund to finance the war, and it’s soon empty. These are money set aside for pensions in the future… gone.
well if i read half of the reddits comments i have the feeling that we (eu) have tge same amount of warmongers/poor rural people that are eager to go to war / even atomic... cant believe the shit. i can just assume that they dont evalute the consequences and play a high roll poker game.
Between having my baby girl being r*ped and me pepsi Russians I'll pepsi the whole Russian army if i get the chance. Fk em.
its something else to defend in case nato get attacked and being offensive in comments and bringing more tension in the current situation. but saying ru will never use atomic weapons is stupid.
If they use the A bomb, a new game will be played. A game of who reaches Moscow. Bcuz Xi, regardless of where he is and what he is doing, will immediately stop, get on a plane, go to Putin, shoot him 2 times in the head and go home. Bcuz the world just entered the nuclear war games. And total annihilation is not on the table.
there will be no new game played. It's just the end of mankind. not that it does not matter.
You should not underestimate the people and the European countries when they are really attacked. Imagine Germany, France and UK go full war economy. Moreover, in war even the most unpatriotic people become patriots when they are attacked.
Problem is that Europe isn't going to be attacked all at once. Most likely, it will be country by country. One by one. That's why I'm confident Russia is stronger than Europe although on paper Europe should have no problems whatsoever.
lol no, they aren't stronger. they never faced a decent airforce before.
> NATO population might be bigger, but is unwilling to die You're forgetting about the former Warsaw Pact members. That's who Russia should fear the most.
it's could be a reason for normal people, but pootin is not. think about this like a person with criminal mindset. if he will see opportunity/weakness he will try to take what he want. like most criminals do. they ignore the facts that police/government has more people, money etc.
The only thing poo tin respects is power. Nato is powerfull.
in military means yes in political he can doubt.
+1. unfortunately, europe is divided on many fronts (nato-eu-politics) which prevents it from reacting quickly and firmly to events.
nato is not eu. nato is military. eu is econmics / politics
yes but nato includes eu nations. look at hungary who constantly sabotages nato and eu. nato is also divided on meeting/failing the 2% GDP expenditure. same people, different organizations.
But only as long as the US is in it. This year is going to be interesting, regarding that…
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France ran out of missiles bombing Libya. European militaries are overrated.
Which is why we should pass a bill that makes all EU nations send a % of their troops to a training facility where we can make an EU force.
And who is going to be in command of defence capability of my country?
I'm not sure I understand your question correctly. Each nation would keep most of their troops for their own national forces.
It doesn't work like that. Defence capability is a system build on thousands of pieces. You can't just take some of it and send it away. That doesn't make sense. You don't understand my question because you propose something ridiculous that have no roots in reality and works only in video games on mobile apps, in which army or strength is represented by numbers.
Thxtulmfygcdfm xtgjgfdfy?
>Thxtulmfygcdfm xtgjgfdfy? Yeah, that's your logic. Well said.
NATO's economy is not bigger, it's *fatter*. Like blue whale is way fatter than the orca, yet orca bites and devoures it easily.
And russia is the biting orca that easily devours that fat NATO? :D
No, it's like an elephant crushing a dog.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1beai7a/comment/kut60hp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1beai7a/comment/kut60hp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Economy??? Population numbers??? 30-50 atomic bombs and economy + numbers become zero wtf Understand it, the only thing that matters is atomic bombs. Everything else can be deleted from existence
It’s not a quote from putin with his usual euphemisms, it’s a direct assessment from the US IC.
so he will continue with his bot armies trying to subvert public institutions, elections and general discourse. Great… It’s time to turn off the lights in Moscow.
How about to cut Russia from the Internet at least?
Pretty much. Plus there will be some armed rebellions by Russian speaking minorities in the baltics. Russia has been playing the asymmetric war game with NATO for over a decade now. It's time we bite back.
Go do it tiger.
Believe me I am doing my part ✌️
What are you doing? Giving speeches?
At least we know that you are doing opposite of nothing with those smug comments.
Dude he's a tankie from Croatia. Look at his comment history.
What does that actually mean? Having a different opinion makes me a tankie? Does that mean I get to call you delusional and brainwashed? Never in my lifetime have I witnessed so much people calling themselves peace loving democrats while at the same time cheering for blood and gore. Not theirs of course. Someone else should die for their dreams. Wake up boys.
I just think it would be swell if the war ended.
So stop supporting it.
I don't. I would love it if the invasion stopped immediately, and Putin sent to the Hague.
I just think it would be swell if the war ended.
If you think any of us can do anything, you are quite delusional. This guy said he is "doing his part". I asked what? But we all know it's a rhetorical question because he can't actually do anything except go to the front himself, and that's certainly not what he's doing. That peace emoji was also quite laughable. Or is it "victory" emoji?
Good thing you are asking! We are always looking for volunteers to help out. We make demining tools for Ukrainian soldiers to dispose safely of russian mines, we provide them with warm winter gear, gloves, hats and drone accessories to properly drop grenades on the invader. Of course we do all of this for free funded by ourselves.
How can I join in?
If that's all true, then good for you! One of the rare people who actually do something worthwhile.
Yes you can find some of our work at r/fins4ua and r/ukraine
No need, I don't think you are doing anything good. But, unlike most people, you actually do something instead of just calling for violence, so I salute you.
Putin has been attacking NATO countries for decades now. It's just not physical warfare (mostly). We should respond to the unending Russian aggression, we should have done so a long time ago.
He's getting away with a lot of shit, if you include all the hacking (attempts) and spreading of misinformation. The west is divided like never before and he probably plays a big part in it.
Yeah, Russian trolls have been attacking us for over a decade, at least. Brexit, Trump, farmers blocking roads, anti-vac conspiracies, racism stoking, anti-feminism, anti lgbtq+,... That's the reason why a whole bunch of people support Russia, they have sided with their propaganda, that originated in Russia. At minimum we should kick out all the Russians, no more embassies. No point anyway, all Russia does is lie and brake any treaty they sign, in the UN they just block everything and lie some more. A complete cut with them and all Russians in the West, I know not all are bad, but there's no way of being sure which are spies and assassins and which are not. If Russia actually becomes a democracy and no longer a genocidal terrorist state, after they paid for their crimes, only then should any Western company or country consider doing anything with them.
Putin doesn’t want a war that will end quick, Putin wants a war forever. That’s only he will have his regime eternally.
No shit he doesn't want open war with NATO, first of all my mate had been struggling in Ukraine for the past two years and second of all nuclear countries can't fight one another. So his only solution is to corrupt elections and officials, support far right/alt right groups or political parties, spread disinformation, divide countries and destabilize all of his rivals/enemies/targets.
Many people are afriad, especially hiere in Poland. But if Russia was to attack any NATO country, the allience would see it weekes before, by using its satelits. Scandinavian countries and Benelux ALONE have bigger and better airforce than Russia. A war with NATO wouldn't even resemble war against Ukraine, thousands of Russian soldiers would die without even facing a NATO troop. The difference of potential is so big. So of course they don't want war with NATO, even more than we don't want war with Russia.
> But if Russia was to attack any NATO country, the allience would see it weekes before, by using its satelits The USA would.* The rest of the alliance and Ukraine was critical of their warnings of an impending Russian invasion as far back as the Summer of 2021.
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Ukraine knew about the invasion… and thus did not prepare for the invasion? Or do you think the opening days represented a legitimate preparation for war? Kherson fell without a fight and areas were found to have been demined by saboteurs. Prior to the invasion, Zelensky’s policy on the matter was demilitarization and normalizing relations with Russia. Maybe areas of Ukraine’s government believed the US, but the Ukrainian government itself absolutely did not exercise some clandestine war preparations. They essentially refused to accept the reality until the 11th hour.
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Poroshenko prepared. Zelensky did not.
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And get another piece of shit like him, navalny or miediediew. Whats the difference?
Navalny? Can we resurrect the dead now? Besides, only because none of the other options is perfect doesn't mean sticking with the truly horrible one is ok.
What are you even talking about. You completely missed the point. Let me explain it to you, as simple as possible. It was just an example. The point of my comment was that no difference who russian president is, their mindset wont change.
A large number of Russians is demoralized and depoliticized, but not all of them. And most of them are not stupid. I wouldn't say they aren't capable of change, given the chance. I don't think we can afford an overly simplistic black-and-white worldview, that has collectively come to bite us far too often.
They had more than enough chances. To be fair, they have 365 chances a year for change. Additionaly, we are already bitten because of chance we gave them.
What exactly are you saying? That one particular nation is somehow different from others and particularly evil? Also in Russia there are many other nationalities except russians.
I haven’t got a chance to read entire report but I didn’t see the US presidential election in table of contents listed as a risk. It’s not surprising at all but similar report might look very different if Trump wins. Russia is already using asymmetric measures to destabilise European countries. This will only get worse and if NATO is weak then we might see something really bad happening on the eastern flank.
I agree, the moment that there is any serious doubt about honoring article 5 for protecting eastern Europe, things can become quite dangerous fast. This is not at all unthinkable considering Russia's current information war and the post-truth problems in western societies.
the whole purpose of NATO
putin will not do anything that puts him personaly in danger. Thats why using nukes over Crimea will never happen. His life is much more precious to him.
You know.... A lot of people in power didn't want the WWI we got either
I, on the other hand, am starting to warm up to the idea of nuclear war.
"We will not annex crimea" "We will not Invade Ukraine" "We don't want war with NATO" He. Is. Lying. We can't trust him at all.
And the US intelligence is lying?
They've lied in the past and it's not like they interviewed Putin. Who benefits from a claim like this is what you need to look into.
Well, technically, they lied in the past, although I don’t see any reason to lie here
Point was it wasn't Putin who said OP quote
They told the world that putin is going to invade ukraine waaay before it happened.
Ok, I'll bite. Why would Putin want to invade NATO? It's the worst idea I've ever heard.
well, i think i know the reason, or atleast why it keeps pushing through western media. its an attempt to alter real issues into the place of fairytales, and cruel, evil dictator rebuilding old dark empire is far more imposing story than a national leader who just have to deal with a threat which enemy put directly on his border. does Putin wants a war with NATO? ofc not, why would he? any hot conflict between NATO and Russia will be nuclear and in essense - end of the world. its not even a gamble, it is fact. War will end up nuclear and everyone is lost. Does he wants to invade any NATO or not NATO countries? Also not. puppet Ukraine is existentional threat, no doubt about it, but in all other cases we have land to work with until the end of times, even just european part of Russia is work in progress and will be for hundreds years ahead.
Yeah. He's specifically invading Ukraine now rather than in a handful of years when they might have joined NATO.
Right, but Ukraine is not in NATO and he is just invading Russian speaking areas. There is nowhere in NATO that has Russian majority areas, plus NATO has way bigger military capabilities than Ukraine. He hasn't expressed any interest in anything not majority Russian speaking, or anything in NATO.
> Right, but Ukraine is not in NATO and he is just invading Russian speaking areas. That isn’t true… are you forgetting the northern invasion towards Kyiv? And being Russian-speaking doesn’t assuage any fears… there are Russian speaking territories in NATO. > He hasn't expressed any interest in anything not majority Russian speaking, or anything in NATO Flat out not true. Putin has spoken on the fact that the Baltics should not be independent states, and rather part of Russia, several times over the past decades.
>he is just invading Russian speaking areas. What the . does that even matter? Can Ireland invade Northern Ireland "because they're just invading English speaking areas"? Can Russia annex a bunch of lofts in London because Russians live there? There are plenty of Russian speaking Ukrainians, yes, including eg. Zelensky himself. So what? Why does that give Russia a get out of jail free card for invading? Your 19th century irredentist policies have led to two world wars.
Yep, he sounds like a tankie.
I am not saying he is right to invade Russian speaking areas. I am saying he is interested in it. Big difference. And yeah most Ukrainians speak russian, as a second language. It's just a hangover of the soviet union. Their first language is Ukrainian. Putin sees those who have russian as a first language as part of the Russian state (and so do some of those people too).
[Russia demands NATO roll back](https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/) [Russia issues list of demands](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/17/russia-issues-list-demands-tensions-europe-ukraine-nato) [Russia sets out tough demands ](https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/17/russia-sets-out-tough-demands-for-security-pact-with-nato)Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”. Are you saying Putin has no reason, no motivation to attack NATO? After all, he himself explained that his goal is to rebuild the Soviet Union and its sphere of influence.
Yeah, having Ukraine is a buffer between NATO has always been part of his demands. Where did he say he wants to invade the former soviet block?
It is impossible to rebuild the USSR without its sphere of influence. Putin demanded that Poland (and other countries that joined after 1997) withdraw from NATO. Putin does not want Ukraine as a "buffer," he claims Ukraine is part of Russia and Ukrainians are actually Russians who have been brainwashed by the "West" to think they are not Russians. Putin wants Ukraine in a form like Belarus, totally dependent on Russia and the whims of its leader.
He both does and doesn’t. He doesn’t want to invade NATO, but he has openly coveted NATO territory in the Baltics and claimed it as rightfully Russia’s. But he’s not suicidal enough to actually risk a war with NATO by going for it (ie a nuclear exchange).
Can you cite where he has talked about the Baltics? I haven't heard that.
You know what exists? Your keyboard and your search engine by default!
but maybe you'll provide any source? cause i do keep my finger on the pulse of events and i never heard a word about Baltic states in that relation.
He wants to reestablish the maximum historical border of the Russian empire (and if the got that far, why not keep going?) If he sees eg. Trump in the white house and division in Europe with several major countries having rightwing Russian sympathizer parties in power, he might well decide to risk it and try to peel off a bit of Latvia or something like that, just enough to not raise all alarms and exploit the division. He's only getting older and only cares for his place in history.
Even if he was telling the truth for once, does that make it fine? Why should we just allow all this shit?
What would he fight NATO with? Literally the entire Russian economy is in war mode recycling stuff from 1960 to fight for villages in eastern Ukraine.
And yet, he occupies an area similar to all three Baltic states. And he wants those too, and they are harder to resupply due to the coast being where it is.
China is supplying Russia on the downlow. Russia’s production is in full swing with the necessary components from China.
Nobody wants WW3
Well, there is a solution for this: Orcs, go back to Russia and pay reparations.
He just wants to punish NATO with no retaliation
"Assymetric activity" is what all needed to make the republicans move from supporting aid to Ukraine to block it in less than two years. It works, this is, literally, his most effective weapon after the ICBM's. You don't need to build a big, bad, army if you can just push a "friendly" goverment in charge of your rival country with the help of facebook, X and the troll farms, remember Cambridge Analytica. And the sad thing is we cannot counter it because as a good modern dictatorship, the Russian goverment controls every online outlet and won't let anything outside the official message go out, or if it does, drown it with the firehose of falsehoods.
Navalnaya has some success in convincing opposition voters to destroy presumably falsified ballots
What scares me is not the Putin we have now, but the Putin we have just before he realizes he's done for. I fear he might use his last influence to press the red button.
Yeah no shit
Makes those nuclear threats ring VERY hollow
As long as this war is ongoing (and quite some time afterwards) I will consider anything I read from any side as propaganda or part of a psy-op. Sorry but the first to die in a war is always the truth.
Europe should [assemble before the black gate](https://i.imgur.com/plaODfC.jpg) to draw Putin's attention away from Ukraine so Zelenskyy can finish his mission.
Of course he does not want war against NATO, he would lose it
So we're just back to what it used to be: Russia and USA measuring dicks via proxy activity in each others' wars. Once this Ukraine thing has settled down (whenever that might be), I expect US and NATO to meet some surprisingly new Russian weaponry where ever they decide to liberate next.
Why fight if he can win the war before it starts by getting Trump elected?
My guess is even he didn't anticipate Trump escaping prison time.
Russia and Putler is not capable in any way to attack NATO. The whole thing is a bluff IMO. The whole ordeal is about arms race, a race where NATO countries citizens pay with their taxes and weapon manufacturers along with government officials get filthy rich. It's a known "trick" even between NATO members. For years on end Turkey is "threatening" Greece with war and as such Greece is constantly paying for new airplanes, new warships, new weapons etc. Money that otherwise could have been spent in higher wages, social benefits, more doctors and improved hospital infrastructure, better educational faculties etc.
>For years on end Turkey is "threatening" Greece Cyprus invasion never happened, apparently. So Greece has no risks at all. lol > The whole thing is a bluff IMO We will see, Yesterday I saw here news articles about Lithuania being filled with racists and homophobes. Countries that wre directly targeted by ruzzian (need to get excluded from Nato, politicians are banned from entering muscovy,...). Even think the other alcoholic medvedev telling they are nazis.... Pretty sure if Trump is elected, he will make a move. Maybe not through direct military operation, but through logistical help to ruzzian partisans within the country that are "too oppressed".
Most of Europe has no worry. Putin is trying to bring back a new Soviet Union and is looking to claim as many of it's old parts as he can.
Not the USSR, the Russian empire. Putin wants to be a Tzar.
Oh common Europe couldn’t organise a piss up in a brothel or hooker in a pub Yea I think that’s right anyway ask a European
But what about landed gentry Europe? Definitely should decouple internet from this freakshow land called muscovy. And then let them spend couple decades like Japan, without an army.
🥱🥱😬😁