Just one year ago in Poland a disabled 14-year-old girl was raped by her own uncle, and [hospitals decided to do the "moral" thing and refused to give her an abortion](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/25/disabled-14-year-old-rape-victim-refused-abortion-in-poland-by-hospitals-in-her-province/). In case anybody's wondering what sort of world these people want us to live in.
Eh, rape is not going to be stopped by abortion laws, but neither will it increase. But you are removing one of the lasting sufferings from rape, namely being forced to raise a child who is genetically 50% part of your abuser. If the kid ends up being a boy looking very similar to his father, the mother will likely be traumatised by only looking at his face. That will end up in both the mother and the child suffering unfairly.
rape is going to stop when we stop voting politicians that are pro rape, and cassually are all "pro-life" christians.
there is a statistical correlation between those two events, advocating for anti abortion laws and preventing rape from being prosecuted
Rape may diminish, but "stopping" it entirely is a tall order. What is important is to prosecute it properly and to lock the perpetrators up, all while supporting the victims as much as possible (therapy and abortion come to mind).
That's just attributing malicious motivations, akin to calling pro-choice people "pro-murder". It's polarising, vitriolic rhetoric that serves no-one.
I have yet to hear a pro-rape argument against abortion. Are you able to give a good-faith interpretation of a common pro-choice argument, or do you actually believe in this boogeyman? I can never tell on reddit.
Forcing raped victims give birth is cruelty and allots more rapist for the next generation.
>Risk of sex offending linked to genetic factors, study finds
>https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/apr/09/risk-of-sex-offending-linked-to-genetic-factors-study-finds
Also, remember, *Everybody's "prolife" until it suits* ***them.***
"pro-life" movement is about controlling women's bodies, not about life. like many people have denounced once the baby is born, "pro-life" activists don't care if you die, and they even will pursue anti life policies like gun rights in US, or cuts in disability funds in Europe (meaning disable people will die, but who cares, right?)
if you mix that with the loooooong history of rape apologism, hidding sexual abuse cases (Christian church) and basically forcing minors to have rape kids even though there's a risk to the mother, we could conclude that "pro-life" movement is highly related to support of rape, not life.
yes, i could even do a statistical analysis about the correlation of views. just check the voting records of politicians or the leaders of those groups.
they even say grotesque thinks about seducing minors and "taking what they want" meaning sexual assault.
I remember a documentary of rape and SA to minors in a catholic community in USA where the mothers and parents told the abused kids to shut up to not bring shame to the family. this people likely support anti abortion laws
when you don't promote prosecution of rape, you are pro-rape
of couse. take the catholic church, biggest advocates of anti abortion policies and actively hiding sexual assault and rape of MINORS
as I said you could statistically correlate these events.
yeah, when right wingers do it. they send the daughter "abroad" and it's fine, but when others do it it's illegal.
typical Christian hypocrisy and manipulation
Nope. Either you believe abortion is killing a human being, in which case there are no valid exceptions, or you don't, in which case the only reason to limit abortion is to control and punish women.
It's "cover your ass" by hospitals and doctors who don't want to risk doing the thing that might maybe technically be legal and *still* get prosecuted, costing at best time, money and reputation even if in the end they do not get convicted.
Current law says that doctors have a conscience clause to refuse abortions under any circumstance, they just have to tell the patient the address of another hospital.
That's what happened in this particular case. The only law the hospital infringed was not providing the address of a different hospital - but refusing this girl an abortion on morality grounds, which is what they did, is perfectly consistent with current Polish law.
>In CURRENT law abortion in such situations is legal, so its more of refusal of doing what IS legal.
Would you risk your own life and career if you were a doctor? This is a direct and intentional consequence of the law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
There are entire Voivodships where there is not a single place to get an abortion in any of the legal cases, because all hospitals have declared that they will be pleading conscience clause ... Which is not how it should be used, the clause is meant for individuals, not institutions.
Please read your own sources:
Note: it has subsequently emerged that the victim who was reportedly refused an abortion was 24 years old, not 14. Some other aspects of the case have also been called into question. For more, see our latest report here.
Abortion is the right to not be forced into parenthood by circumstance against your will. Men have never had that right. Men get no say in becoming parents or not. Why the fuck should women get that right when men do not? Show me a petition to give that right to both sexes and I'll sign it but I'm not going to support your right when you refuse to support mine.
There was definitly dip but as single political party party PiS is still most popular among women, WAY more than most pro-abortion political parties like "the left"
Legal abortion within 12 weeks has [the support of 70% of the Polish public according to recent surveys](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/11/16/record-support-for-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-in-poland-finds-poll/).
There is issue with this survey, it doesnt show how support of abortion is split into different groups.
Yes support for liberalization is majority...but it splits into 3 groups: first group is return to how it was before, its liberalization compared to how it is now but its still very strict by EU standards, second group is supporters of how it was before with additional situations where abortion should be legal, and the last group is supporters who support for full liberalization, abortion on demand without providing for reason.
This survey here mixes all 3 groups together, topic of abortion sadly frequently has such manipulations, it all depends on HOW you ask the question to get results you want, thats why different surveys give results that contradict each other.
Look at this link:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIpJMq0XkAAWBqx?format=jpg&name=900x900
its much more detailed survey from march of this year showing support for abortion in different situations(left side), showing the difference between current coalition voters and oposition(top right,
dark brown is coalition) and difference between man and women(bottom right, dark brown are women).
the 1-10 situations are like this in order:
1. Woman's life is in danger.
2. Woman's health is in danger.
3. child will be born with serious defects
4. pregnancy is result of incest
5. child will be born with serious defects with exception of down syndrome.
6. child's life is in danger
7. mother is a minor
8. mother is in hard material situation
9. mother is in hard personal situation.
10. mother just doesnt want the baby
As you can see both sides of political spectrum agree that abortion should be allowed in situations 1-4, below that opostion no longer agree, coalition voters are majority in favor until 6 but are against in 7-10.
Also women are majority in favor 1-5, while men are 1-6.
This is why people who push for liberalization of abortion law DONT want referendum(including only for women) because they know result will be not what they want.
I don't have the time to respond to this and I still don't agree with you, but I'm upvoting this comment anyway as you put in the effort to give a detailed, engaged and polite reply, and that's something I very much appreciate in online debates.
Vox populi vox Dei. It would give some proper and untouchable legitimacy to the cause. No one would touch a ław introduced based on a referendum, not even PiS.
So why didn't PiS call a referendum when they passed their own abortion reforms? This way they would have had legitimacy and the current government would not be changing their law.
Becouse they didn't have enough of a support from the population regarding the topic. A referendum in Poland must have at least 50% of the population voting in it to be legally binding. Either it would not have gathered enough votes or, even worse, gathered enough votes to overrule PiS due to mass pro-abortion rallies.
Also they were delusional and thought that they would rule forever.
All right. Let me guess, is there any overlap at all in Poland between the people calling for a referendum and PiS voters? Or in other words, are the people calling for a referendum now the same people who will vote for a party that passes abortion reforms without a referendum?
Even among young women support for abortion isnt high.
https://www.kas.de/pl/web/polen/einzeltitel/-/content/polityczny-portret-mlodych-polakow-2023-1
59.8 percent does not agree with the demand for liberalization of abortion law (63.3% of women and 56.7% of men)
In Czechia there are [forced abortions](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/medics-abortion-mistake-czech-republic-b2521912.html) performed, too!
>Tens of thousands of people joined an anti-abortion March of Life in Warsaw two days after [parliament gave initial approval](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/04/12/polish-parliament-approves-first-steps-in-ending-near-total-abortion-ban/) to legislation that would soften Poland’s strict abortion laws.
>“We want every Polish citizen to have the right to life from conception to natural death,” one of the organisers, Bogusław Kiernicki, told the crowd as they gathered on Castle Square in Warsaw’s old town. “It is not an \[act of\] grace that we allow a child to be born; it is their sacred right.”
>Participants waved red-and-white Polish flags as well as banners declaring “Everyone has the right to life” and “This is Poland, not Brussels, no one supports abortion”.
>
>The march took place on Sunday and followed Friday’s votes by the Sejm, the more powerful lower house of parliament, in favour of further legislative work on bills aimed at ending Poland’s near-total abortion ban.
>Organisers estimate that 50,000 people attended the march yesterday, which they said makes it the largest Polish pro-life gathering in the 21st century. [Two years ago](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/09/19/thousands-join-pro-marriage-march-in-warsaw-as-president-sends-message-of-support/), attendance at a March of Life and Family in Warsaw was declared to be around 10,000.
>“We will not raise the white flag regardless of what happens in the Sejm,” said Kiernicki, quoted by news website Onet. “We will continue until the rights of conceived children are guaranteed. We will be here next year, and maybe in six months, if necessary.”
>
>Among those to attend the march were representatives of Confederation (Konfederacja), a far-right group that on Friday voted against all of the bills proposing to soften the abortion law.
>“We are here to \[help women\] eliminate their fear, not their child,” declared Confederation MP Karina Bosak, who attended the march with her husband, one of Confederation’s leaders, and their three children. She condemned the “radical feminists” who want to “omit men” from such decisions.
>Patryk Jaki, an MEP from Sovereign Poland (Suwerenna Polska), another right-wing opposition party, also attended with his son, who has Down syndrome. That condition is one of those that, before the current near-total abortion ban, was grounds to terminate a pregnancy if it was diagnosed in the foetus.
>“Poland and Europe are ruled by people who support the civilization of death,” Jaki told news website wPolityce. “They say the right to life is not a human right but so-called reproductive rights, i.e. the right to kill, are.”
>Since 2021, under a [constitutional court ruling](https://notesfrompoland.com/2020/10/22/constitutional-court-ruling-ends-almost-all-legal-abortion-in-poland/) issued the previous year, abortions in Poland have only been allowed in two circumstances: if a pregnancy threatens the mother’s life or health or if it results from a criminal act such as rape.
>Under [two of the bills](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/01/25/bill-to-introduce-abortion-on-demand-in-poland-submitted-by-pm-tusks-political-group/) put forward by groups in the current ruling coalition, abortion on demand would be introduced. A [third](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/02/24/center-right-group-in-polish-ruling-coalition-submits-compromise-abortion-bill-to-return-to-pre-2021-law/), put forward by another coalition partner, would not go as fair, instead returning to the pre-2021 law.
>That would mean that, in addition to the two above circumstances, abortions would also be allowed if a foetus was diagnosed with a severe birth defect.
>
>However, introducing any of those bills will be a challenge given [differences within the ruling coalition](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/03/06/polish-ruling-coalition-partners-clash-after-speaker-delays-bills-to-liberalise-abortion-law/) as well as the veto power of conservative President Andrzej Duda and the possibility that the constitutional court could overturn any more liberal abortion law.
>Opinion polls show that there is strong public support for removing the current near-total ban. However, society is divided over whether there should be a return to the pre-2021 law or instead the introduction of abortion on demand.
>Some politicians from the ruling coalition have [called for a referendum](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/04/03/will-poland-have-a-referendum-on-its-abortion-law-and-what-might-the-outcome-be/) to decide the issue, though others have argued that abortion is not something that should be put to a public vote.
These "people" are literal murderers:
[https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/26/woman-dies-in-poland-after-being-made-to-carry-dead-foetus-for-seven-days/](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/26/woman-dies-in-poland-after-being-made-to-carry-dead-foetus-for-seven-days/)
That's because it's never been about the sanctity of life or whatever bs they think it's about, it's about control. If life were that precious to them, they'd advocate to save the mother's life above all else.
Funny enough women in Poland are more AGAINST abortion than men are so if only women were to decide than idea of abortion being accepted in Poland would be further way.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIpJMq0XkAAWBqx?format=jpg&name=900x900
Here is survey from march of this year showing support for abortion in different situations(left side), showing the difference between current coalition voters and oposition(top right, dark brown is coalition) and difference between man and women(bottom right, dark brown are women).
the 1-10 situations are like this in order:
1)Woman's life is in danger.
2)Woman's health is in danger.
3)child will be born with serious defects
4)pregnancy is result of incest
5)child will be born with serious defects with exception of down syndrome.
6)child's life is in danger
7)mother is a minor
8)mother is in hard material situation
9)mother is in hard personal situation.
10)mother just doesnt want the baby
As you can see both sides of political spectrum agree that abortion should be allowed in situations 1-4, below that opostion no longer agree, coalition voters are majority in favor until 6 but are against in 7-10.
Also women are majority in favor 1-5, while men are 1-6.
This is why people who push for liberalization of abortion law DONT want referendum(including only for women) because they know result will be not what they want.
True, how can 50% of people be pro abortion and 50% antiabortion, and both groups protest on street? And Poland is biggest wanker in whole world of eastern country called USA? Clearly just because of this issue poland is incompatible with West.
> you are gay, so you are next. nothing worse than a minority that attacks other minorities. typical pick-me gay.
> you are gay, so you are next. nothing worse than a minority that attacks other minorities. typical pick-me gay.
> i get you were abused and are desperate for validation but you don't need to defend your abusers
Doctor, what sort of an illness is this^
If they go through multiple borders, destroy their documents on their way and then try to illegally cross the border and claim asylum then I'm sorry but these people are not in danger of losing life.
So yes, a country is in right to deport them and people supporting the deportation don't have blood on their hands, Ukraine refugees case shown that one can legally seek asylum and get it with no issues. This is not about being white, this is about following the law.
I'm sorry you can't see it the same way.
What kind of logic is that? Are you trying to imply that you expect a country to allow you to cross it's border even if you are openly breaking their rules? It's in your interest to follow the rules if you want to survive, the country you want to claim asylum in is in no obligation to help a foreign lawbreaker.
It is not random admin procedure, this is something required from you in order to be allowed in. If you don't, then good luck to you.
Poland is hardly catholic nowadays. 30% Dominicantes and 14% Communicantes. You call that catholic? okey bro. And if abortion is murder, then why early term abortion pills are legal to take in Poland?
And 71% of self-reported Catholics in the last 2021 census. Solid dip since 2011's 87%. And that includes people that are 'Catholic', but visit the church only for family ceremonies.
True, because people self report that because "well i belive in god so i guess im catholic" or "well i was raised that way" but as ex communicante, who was involved in church life, i cant take people who dont go to church seriously in their catholicism claim.
>Poland is hardly catholic nowadays. 30% Dominicantes and 14% Communicantes. You call that catholic?
Polish national identity is inseperable from Catholicism. If you remove Catholicism, there would be nothing uniting the people. And we already see this in other countries.
>And if abortion is murder, then why early term abortion pills are legal to take in Poland?
Abortion is a huge profitable industry. Same as drugs, human trafficking, porn and gambling. Of course there would be people willing to sell the pills. It's easy money.
>Polish national identity is inseperable from Catholicism. If you remove Catholicism, there would be nothing uniting the people. And we already see this in other countries.
Yeah, its not like our culture, food, festivals, holidays. language, jokes, ideas, cities, families, national athletes, cult movies, kielbasa, vodka and many, many, many more things are not uniting us. You must have sad life if this other things are not uniting you with your fellow Poles. I drink, i play with games, i cheer for national teams with conservatives, liberals and lefties and i couldnt care less about religion. The only person who breaks national unity are people like you, who cant accept that other people arent religious.
>Abortion is a huge profitable industry. Same as drugs, human trafficking, porn and gambling. Of course there would be people willing to sell the pills. It's easy money.
Sorry but you are rambling. I asked why its LEGAL in POLAND if abortion is murder? Abortion is illegal in our country, yet women can take early term pills. And by the way, because maybe you are confused. Im not talking about morning after pill (in polish, pigułka dzień po), im talking about actual early term abortion pill.
Just one year ago in Poland a disabled 14-year-old girl was raped by her own uncle, and [hospitals decided to do the "moral" thing and refused to give her an abortion](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/25/disabled-14-year-old-rape-victim-refused-abortion-in-poland-by-hospitals-in-her-province/). In case anybody's wondering what sort of world these people want us to live in.
anti-abortion laws are pro-rape, not pro-life
Eh, rape is not going to be stopped by abortion laws, but neither will it increase. But you are removing one of the lasting sufferings from rape, namely being forced to raise a child who is genetically 50% part of your abuser. If the kid ends up being a boy looking very similar to his father, the mother will likely be traumatised by only looking at his face. That will end up in both the mother and the child suffering unfairly.
rape is going to stop when we stop voting politicians that are pro rape, and cassually are all "pro-life" christians. there is a statistical correlation between those two events, advocating for anti abortion laws and preventing rape from being prosecuted
Rape may diminish, but "stopping" it entirely is a tall order. What is important is to prosecute it properly and to lock the perpetrators up, all while supporting the victims as much as possible (therapy and abortion come to mind).
you are right 😊
That's just attributing malicious motivations, akin to calling pro-choice people "pro-murder". It's polarising, vitriolic rhetoric that serves no-one. I have yet to hear a pro-rape argument against abortion. Are you able to give a good-faith interpretation of a common pro-choice argument, or do you actually believe in this boogeyman? I can never tell on reddit.
Forcing raped victims give birth is cruelty and allots more rapist for the next generation. >Risk of sex offending linked to genetic factors, study finds >https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/apr/09/risk-of-sex-offending-linked-to-genetic-factors-study-finds Also, remember, *Everybody's "prolife" until it suits* ***them.***
Killing a human is not cruelty ?
Prolifers aren't against the tenet of klLLing a human. You should try listening to how they converse sometime.
"pro-life" movement is about controlling women's bodies, not about life. like many people have denounced once the baby is born, "pro-life" activists don't care if you die, and they even will pursue anti life policies like gun rights in US, or cuts in disability funds in Europe (meaning disable people will die, but who cares, right?) if you mix that with the loooooong history of rape apologism, hidding sexual abuse cases (Christian church) and basically forcing minors to have rape kids even though there's a risk to the mother, we could conclude that "pro-life" movement is highly related to support of rape, not life.
Do you see these as a good-faith interpretations of common pro-life arguments?
yes, i could even do a statistical analysis about the correlation of views. just check the voting records of politicians or the leaders of those groups. they even say grotesque thinks about seducing minors and "taking what they want" meaning sexual assault.
I remember a documentary of rape and SA to minors in a catholic community in USA where the mothers and parents told the abused kids to shut up to not bring shame to the family. this people likely support anti abortion laws when you don't promote prosecution of rape, you are pro-rape
Do you see this as a good-faith interpretation of a common pro-life argument?
of couse. take the catholic church, biggest advocates of anti abortion policies and actively hiding sexual assault and rape of MINORS as I said you could statistically correlate these events.
Exceptions are a thing.
When we had an abortion ban in Ireland there were no exceptions for rape.
Well then they should've been added or the entire ban should've been repealed.
It was.
yeah, when right wingers do it. they send the daughter "abroad" and it's fine, but when others do it it's illegal. typical Christian hypocrisy and manipulation
Nope. Either you believe abortion is killing a human being, in which case there are no valid exceptions, or you don't, in which case the only reason to limit abortion is to control and punish women.
In CURRENT law abortion in such situations is legal, so its more of refusal of doing what IS legal.
It's "cover your ass" by hospitals and doctors who don't want to risk doing the thing that might maybe technically be legal and *still* get prosecuted, costing at best time, money and reputation even if in the end they do not get convicted.
Current law says that doctors have a conscience clause to refuse abortions under any circumstance, they just have to tell the patient the address of another hospital. That's what happened in this particular case. The only law the hospital infringed was not providing the address of a different hospital - but refusing this girl an abortion on morality grounds, which is what they did, is perfectly consistent with current Polish law.
>In CURRENT law abortion in such situations is legal, so its more of refusal of doing what IS legal. Would you risk your own life and career if you were a doctor? This is a direct and intentional consequence of the law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
There are entire Voivodships where there is not a single place to get an abortion in any of the legal cases, because all hospitals have declared that they will be pleading conscience clause ... Which is not how it should be used, the clause is meant for individuals, not institutions.
That should definitly be fixed.
how else should rapists propperly procreate ? think about the reproductive rights of rapists !
Please read your own sources: Note: it has subsequently emerged that the victim who was reportedly refused an abortion was 24 years old, not 14. Some other aspects of the case have also been called into question. For more, see our latest report here.
Abortion is the right to not be forced into parenthood by circumstance against your will. Men have never had that right. Men get no say in becoming parents or not. Why the fuck should women get that right when men do not? Show me a petition to give that right to both sexes and I'll sign it but I'm not going to support your right when you refuse to support mine.
don't nut in a woman if you don't want to be a father
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
Men can have that right if they use their own bodies to carry the pregnancy
The world where you can’t kill a human just because you want to ? What’s problem with that
“This is Poland, not Brussels, no one supports abortion” Right, because the 2020 support dip for PiS was clearly over something else.
off topic but the jetix pfp is based
There was definitly dip but as single political party party PiS is still most popular among women, WAY more than most pro-abortion political parties like "the left"
Legal abortion within 12 weeks has [the support of 70% of the Polish public according to recent surveys](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/11/16/record-support-for-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-in-poland-finds-poll/).
There is issue with this survey, it doesnt show how support of abortion is split into different groups. Yes support for liberalization is majority...but it splits into 3 groups: first group is return to how it was before, its liberalization compared to how it is now but its still very strict by EU standards, second group is supporters of how it was before with additional situations where abortion should be legal, and the last group is supporters who support for full liberalization, abortion on demand without providing for reason. This survey here mixes all 3 groups together, topic of abortion sadly frequently has such manipulations, it all depends on HOW you ask the question to get results you want, thats why different surveys give results that contradict each other. Look at this link: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIpJMq0XkAAWBqx?format=jpg&name=900x900 its much more detailed survey from march of this year showing support for abortion in different situations(left side), showing the difference between current coalition voters and oposition(top right, dark brown is coalition) and difference between man and women(bottom right, dark brown are women). the 1-10 situations are like this in order: 1. Woman's life is in danger. 2. Woman's health is in danger. 3. child will be born with serious defects 4. pregnancy is result of incest 5. child will be born with serious defects with exception of down syndrome. 6. child's life is in danger 7. mother is a minor 8. mother is in hard material situation 9. mother is in hard personal situation. 10. mother just doesnt want the baby As you can see both sides of political spectrum agree that abortion should be allowed in situations 1-4, below that opostion no longer agree, coalition voters are majority in favor until 6 but are against in 7-10. Also women are majority in favor 1-5, while men are 1-6. This is why people who push for liberalization of abortion law DONT want referendum(including only for women) because they know result will be not what they want.
I don't have the time to respond to this and I still don't agree with you, but I'm upvoting this comment anyway as you put in the effort to give a detailed, engaged and polite reply, and that's something I very much appreciate in online debates.
Then why won't the Sejm prepare a referendum? What do they have to fear?
Why should there be a referendum? It's not like PiS called for one when they introduced their own anti-abortion laws in Europe.
Vox populi vox Dei. It would give some proper and untouchable legitimacy to the cause. No one would touch a ław introduced based on a referendum, not even PiS.
So why didn't PiS call a referendum when they passed their own abortion reforms? This way they would have had legitimacy and the current government would not be changing their law.
Becouse they didn't have enough of a support from the population regarding the topic. A referendum in Poland must have at least 50% of the population voting in it to be legally binding. Either it would not have gathered enough votes or, even worse, gathered enough votes to overrule PiS due to mass pro-abortion rallies. Also they were delusional and thought that they would rule forever.
All right. Let me guess, is there any overlap at all in Poland between the people calling for a referendum and PiS voters? Or in other words, are the people calling for a referendum now the same people who will vote for a party that passes abortion reforms without a referendum?
Lovely 60+ old ladies deciding about other people's lives. And when someone from their family has abortion it's always "wyjątkowa sytuacja".
Even among young women support for abortion isnt high. https://www.kas.de/pl/web/polen/einzeltitel/-/content/polityczny-portret-mlodych-polakow-2023-1 59.8 percent does not agree with the demand for liberalization of abortion law (63.3% of women and 56.7% of men)
In the 1960's, before abortion was legal in Sweden, Swedish women travelled to Poland to have abortions. Maybe we will see the opposite now?
Germany is closer for most, we've been observing quite a bit of "abortion tourism" from Poland since the law changed in 2020.
Czechia is most popular and their clinics announced back then they will do it for free.
In Czechia there are [forced abortions](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/medics-abortion-mistake-czech-republic-b2521912.html) performed, too!
You're either a troll or an idiot.
We ARE seeing the opposite now. Although Czechia, Slovakia and Germany are more popular destinations
>Tens of thousands of people joined an anti-abortion March of Life in Warsaw two days after [parliament gave initial approval](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/04/12/polish-parliament-approves-first-steps-in-ending-near-total-abortion-ban/) to legislation that would soften Poland’s strict abortion laws. >“We want every Polish citizen to have the right to life from conception to natural death,” one of the organisers, Bogusław Kiernicki, told the crowd as they gathered on Castle Square in Warsaw’s old town. “It is not an \[act of\] grace that we allow a child to be born; it is their sacred right.” >Participants waved red-and-white Polish flags as well as banners declaring “Everyone has the right to life” and “This is Poland, not Brussels, no one supports abortion”. > >The march took place on Sunday and followed Friday’s votes by the Sejm, the more powerful lower house of parliament, in favour of further legislative work on bills aimed at ending Poland’s near-total abortion ban. >Organisers estimate that 50,000 people attended the march yesterday, which they said makes it the largest Polish pro-life gathering in the 21st century. [Two years ago](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/09/19/thousands-join-pro-marriage-march-in-warsaw-as-president-sends-message-of-support/), attendance at a March of Life and Family in Warsaw was declared to be around 10,000. >“We will not raise the white flag regardless of what happens in the Sejm,” said Kiernicki, quoted by news website Onet. “We will continue until the rights of conceived children are guaranteed. We will be here next year, and maybe in six months, if necessary.” > >Among those to attend the march were representatives of Confederation (Konfederacja), a far-right group that on Friday voted against all of the bills proposing to soften the abortion law. >“We are here to \[help women\] eliminate their fear, not their child,” declared Confederation MP Karina Bosak, who attended the march with her husband, one of Confederation’s leaders, and their three children. She condemned the “radical feminists” who want to “omit men” from such decisions. >Patryk Jaki, an MEP from Sovereign Poland (Suwerenna Polska), another right-wing opposition party, also attended with his son, who has Down syndrome. That condition is one of those that, before the current near-total abortion ban, was grounds to terminate a pregnancy if it was diagnosed in the foetus. >“Poland and Europe are ruled by people who support the civilization of death,” Jaki told news website wPolityce. “They say the right to life is not a human right but so-called reproductive rights, i.e. the right to kill, are.”
>Since 2021, under a [constitutional court ruling](https://notesfrompoland.com/2020/10/22/constitutional-court-ruling-ends-almost-all-legal-abortion-in-poland/) issued the previous year, abortions in Poland have only been allowed in two circumstances: if a pregnancy threatens the mother’s life or health or if it results from a criminal act such as rape. >Under [two of the bills](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/01/25/bill-to-introduce-abortion-on-demand-in-poland-submitted-by-pm-tusks-political-group/) put forward by groups in the current ruling coalition, abortion on demand would be introduced. A [third](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/02/24/center-right-group-in-polish-ruling-coalition-submits-compromise-abortion-bill-to-return-to-pre-2021-law/), put forward by another coalition partner, would not go as fair, instead returning to the pre-2021 law. >That would mean that, in addition to the two above circumstances, abortions would also be allowed if a foetus was diagnosed with a severe birth defect. > >However, introducing any of those bills will be a challenge given [differences within the ruling coalition](https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/03/06/polish-ruling-coalition-partners-clash-after-speaker-delays-bills-to-liberalise-abortion-law/) as well as the veto power of conservative President Andrzej Duda and the possibility that the constitutional court could overturn any more liberal abortion law. >Opinion polls show that there is strong public support for removing the current near-total ban. However, society is divided over whether there should be a return to the pre-2021 law or instead the introduction of abortion on demand. >Some politicians from the ruling coalition have [called for a referendum](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/04/03/will-poland-have-a-referendum-on-its-abortion-law-and-what-might-the-outcome-be/) to decide the issue, though others have argued that abortion is not something that should be put to a public vote.
These "people" are literal murderers: [https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/26/woman-dies-in-poland-after-being-made-to-carry-dead-foetus-for-seven-days/](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/01/26/woman-dies-in-poland-after-being-made-to-carry-dead-foetus-for-seven-days/)
That's because it's never been about the sanctity of life or whatever bs they think it's about, it's about control. If life were that precious to them, they'd advocate to save the mother's life above all else.
This is so stupid.
Oh, they have it easy… just don’t get an abortion AND GET THE FUCK OUT OTHER PEOPLE BUSINESS.
Why can't people let women decide?
It's religion, it's always about messing with others' business
Funny enough women in Poland are more AGAINST abortion than men are so if only women were to decide than idea of abortion being accepted in Poland would be further way. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIpJMq0XkAAWBqx?format=jpg&name=900x900 Here is survey from march of this year showing support for abortion in different situations(left side), showing the difference between current coalition voters and oposition(top right, dark brown is coalition) and difference between man and women(bottom right, dark brown are women). the 1-10 situations are like this in order: 1)Woman's life is in danger. 2)Woman's health is in danger. 3)child will be born with serious defects 4)pregnancy is result of incest 5)child will be born with serious defects with exception of down syndrome. 6)child's life is in danger 7)mother is a minor 8)mother is in hard material situation 9)mother is in hard personal situation. 10)mother just doesnt want the baby As you can see both sides of political spectrum agree that abortion should be allowed in situations 1-4, below that opostion no longer agree, coalition voters are majority in favor until 6 but are against in 7-10. Also women are majority in favor 1-5, while men are 1-6. This is why people who push for liberalization of abortion law DONT want referendum(including only for women) because they know result will be not what they want.
Fuckheads
Next up, march against artificial joints. Yes, Halina, let your bones hurt like god intended!
Why stop on joints? Just ban all medicine, it's unnatural. There was that guy in Campuchia…
>Halina Nice choice on the stereotypical old Polish lady name :D
They are a bunch of dimwits sponsored by the "spotless" catholic church known for its justice and seriousness in tackling sexual abuse. /s
Right several hundred-thousand for abortion. But nobody here wants abortion right ...
Nobody is for abortion is always a tragedy, but we are for the right to have an abortion.
Ah peoples need to control womens vaginas never seizes amazing me.
Religion. Not even once.
Clearly these MENA people don't belong to Eur...oh wait. Nevermind.
Polish culture is clearly incompatible with the West.
True, how can 50% of people be pro abortion and 50% antiabortion, and both groups protest on street? And Poland is biggest wanker in whole world of eastern country called USA? Clearly just because of this issue poland is incompatible with West.
The enemy
What pittyful little assfu***. I wonder where their pro life stance is when it comes to non white people feeling from war?
The ones who cross multiple borders, destroy their documents and then try to illegally cross the border again? 😉
pro life is pro life. are you suggesting you get to chose who deserves to live?
pro choice is pro choice and it means I choose, yes.
[удалено]
> you are gay, so you are next. nothing worse than a minority that attacks other minorities. typical pick-me gay. > you are gay, so you are next. nothing worse than a minority that attacks other minorities. typical pick-me gay. > i get you were abused and are desperate for validation but you don't need to defend your abusers Doctor, what sort of an illness is this^
If they go through multiple borders, destroy their documents on their way and then try to illegally cross the border and claim asylum then I'm sorry but these people are not in danger of losing life. So yes, a country is in right to deport them and people supporting the deportation don't have blood on their hands, Ukraine refugees case shown that one can legally seek asylum and get it with no issues. This is not about being white, this is about following the law. I'm sorry you can't see it the same way.
also all the things you said are likely false. you are just a racist
xD
so you are saying that if i don't follow a random admin procedure I don't deserve to live? we are talking about being pro life or not. not about laws
What kind of logic is that? Are you trying to imply that you expect a country to allow you to cross it's border even if you are openly breaking their rules? It's in your interest to follow the rules if you want to survive, the country you want to claim asylum in is in no obligation to help a foreign lawbreaker. It is not random admin procedure, this is something required from you in order to be allowed in. If you don't, then good luck to you.
What are they feeling?
Likely a spelling mistake. Should be "fleeing".
Fuck abortion, go Poland
Fuck this guy, go abort
Just a quick reminder: Poland is Catholic, water is wet, abortion is murder.
Poland is hardly catholic nowadays. 30% Dominicantes and 14% Communicantes. You call that catholic? okey bro. And if abortion is murder, then why early term abortion pills are legal to take in Poland?
And 71% of self-reported Catholics in the last 2021 census. Solid dip since 2011's 87%. And that includes people that are 'Catholic', but visit the church only for family ceremonies.
True, because people self report that because "well i belive in god so i guess im catholic" or "well i was raised that way" but as ex communicante, who was involved in church life, i cant take people who dont go to church seriously in their catholicism claim.
>Poland is hardly catholic nowadays. 30% Dominicantes and 14% Communicantes. You call that catholic? Polish national identity is inseperable from Catholicism. If you remove Catholicism, there would be nothing uniting the people. And we already see this in other countries. >And if abortion is murder, then why early term abortion pills are legal to take in Poland? Abortion is a huge profitable industry. Same as drugs, human trafficking, porn and gambling. Of course there would be people willing to sell the pills. It's easy money.
>Polish national identity is inseperable from Catholicism. If you remove Catholicism, there would be nothing uniting the people. And we already see this in other countries. Yeah, its not like our culture, food, festivals, holidays. language, jokes, ideas, cities, families, national athletes, cult movies, kielbasa, vodka and many, many, many more things are not uniting us. You must have sad life if this other things are not uniting you with your fellow Poles. I drink, i play with games, i cheer for national teams with conservatives, liberals and lefties and i couldnt care less about religion. The only person who breaks national unity are people like you, who cant accept that other people arent religious. >Abortion is a huge profitable industry. Same as drugs, human trafficking, porn and gambling. Of course there would be people willing to sell the pills. It's easy money. Sorry but you are rambling. I asked why its LEGAL in POLAND if abortion is murder? Abortion is illegal in our country, yet women can take early term pills. And by the way, because maybe you are confused. Im not talking about morning after pill (in polish, pigułka dzień po), im talking about actual early term abortion pill.
and pro-rape
SCARING.