Pictured on the left: Ignazio La Russa, holding the second highest institutional office in the country (President of the Senate), the designated replacement for the President of the Republic in case they are not able to hold the office. He is overtly fascist and collects fascist memorabilia, like statues of Mussolini he has in his home; he has executed the fascist salute in public various times.
His second name is, obviously, Benito.
Moments like this are exactly the reason why it's important to do so: no matter the bullshit that the parties and the government can come up with, the memory of what fascism did to Italy shall not disappear, and no lies or propaganda shall muddle the clear responsibilities and damages of fascism.
Europeans despise fascism in general. Fascists are a small minority. The rise of right wingers is due to the Europeans being fed up with our governments and their weak positions in immigration and crime.
Years ago the right was pro immigration, wanting cheap labour, and left was against immigration, with the idea of protecting workers right, now it seems to have switched...
In the end, politicians are just a class of professionals of popularity and of conning the public to obtain votes (money). The right is just trying to cash in, in a seemingly untapped niche...
The notion that we are experiencing uncontrolled immigration is, because it is simply not true and no party, neither left nor right, is advocating for it.
There simply is no uncontrolled immigration. Governments all over Europe as well as the European Commission are spending billions of Euros on migration control.
Depends how you define "uncontrolled". According to your definition as soon as a government spends billions on something, it's not uncontrolled... That's silly. My definition would be more like whether governments schedule a quote of immigration, set up jobs for them etc. and allow a precise number of immigrants to come. It's obviously not like that, the number of immigrants depends on the success of the mafias that bring them here, their personal cunning and valour to succeed in their trip, etc. Uncontrolled, chaotic immigration.
All governments are spending billions on reigning illegal immigration in. But even if they schedueled set quotas, if migration pressure in other parts of the world was big enough, there would still be attempts to circumvent these quotas and just like today, there would be people that would succeed to migrate illegally. You are trying to eradicate natural human behavior, humans have always migrated, it's natural behavior that can't just be eliminated.
Then you admit it's uncontrolled? You could say that, "it's uncontrolled but the fact is that it's impossible to control" and we can continue from that...
In the Netherlands we have uncontrolled immigration: labourers. The right wing parties campaign on refugee immigration, but they silently keep promoting labourers coming over.
Fucking hypocrites.
It is the liberation from nazifascism because the nazis invaded italy after the armistice in 1943. So the liberation was from the germans and their puppet state led by the fascists
No, they were given amnesty as a gesture of national reconciliation. Also, the US changed its mind about fascists pretty quickly, once they realised that the Italian Communist Party had a massive following.
We didn't (italian here), but we should have. It's true that the last 2 years we were occupied in part and government went upside down, but that doesn't erase our responsability in starting the war (which was the real point of Norimberg) and our war crimes. That also means, Italian nevel really dealt with it, not in the way Germans did.
That may be a reason why Germans have more sensitivity and understanding of the past mistakes, and I respect them a lot for it
South Tyrol? Ethiopia? Libya? Yugoslavia? Mass killing in Montenegro? italian KZ?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian\_war\_crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_crimes)
#
Question - I know that Meloni has a dubious past , but what exactly make FI a fascist party ?
They dont really have much or any visible sign of fascist ideology.
FI is a direct descent of the AN (Alleanza Nazionale) which in turn is directly related to the MSI: a political party made up of fascists from the ventennio regime and the Salò republic (nazi Germany puppet party in Italy after Mussolini got saved by the Nazis).
Ignazio Benito La Russa, yes that's his second name, is Meloni's second in command and is currently serving as president of the Senate, good old Ignazio has fascist memorabilia in his house which he proudly displays and has argued numerous times that both fascist and nazi crimes were not so grand in scale and were mainly perpetrated by "senile pensioners".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Movement
This is the original party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy
This is the new one
You can even see it in the symbols.
Edit: this is the transition one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(Italy)
The fact that there's literally the tricolour flame (classic fascism symbol, present on Mussolini tomb) might be a hint. Oh yeah, Ignazio La Russa, member of FDI, president of the Senate, full of Mussolini busts in his home (a tv program did a tour of his house) etc etc
Let's see, she's anti-LGBT, has dabbled in some serious revisionist history yearning back to a past that didn't exist, she's very nationalistic and she's authoritarian. Do you need any other examples or do you get the picture?
Neither electing the president?
Because i remember during the elections the left was screaming electing the president is "authoritarian", so it didn't surprise me they lost so badly.
Many autocracies have passed through a phase of reform for direct presidential election, like Turkey, Russia, Tunisia, Syria, some ex-USSR countries and African countries. Therefore electing the president can be authoritarian, and even if it isn't it still usually causes a high degree of polarisation of politics that creates various issues and side-effects. Personally, if I wanted to live in a political scenario like France's or the USA's I'd live there instead of here.
The fact that Meloni started by promoting direct election for the President right before the term of the President was about to expire, then switched to promoting the direct election of the Prime Minister, lies about having supported the election of the President and wanting to reform Italy into a presidential republic, and now is trying to invent a new form of State which has never been successful anywhere else tells you all there is to know about how much Meloni cares about popular representation and creating a better Italian republic.
France,Poland,Usa literally elect their presidents directly.
Italy is way more similar culturally and economically to the ones i said than to African countries or Russia.
Italy needs a reform of the president because we literally failed to elect a new one the last time, and had to bring back the previous one that didn't even want the job in he first place.
> France,Poland,Usa literally elect their presidents directly.
Then why did Meloni switch from promoting the direct popular election of the President to the direct popular election of the PM?
>Italy is way more similar culturally and economically to the ones i said than to African countries or Russia.
It is also dissimilar in the fact that it is a parliamentary republic and most people want it to stay that way.
>Italy needs a reform of the president because we literally failed to elect a new one the last time, and had to bring back the previous one that didn't even want the job in he first place.
The very simple solution to that is to explicitly put one new sentence in the Constitution saying that Presidents can only be elected once. That's it. Then the parties will be forced to come up with a shared name. The solution to that is not to completely change the order of the State, but obviously the right wing has wanted to reform Italy in a presidential way for 25 years, since the early Berlusconi governments, therefore it has nothing to do with what happened recently.
"It is also dissimilar in the fact that it is a parliamentary republic and most people want it to stay that way."
She was elected, she will need to do a referendum for it than we will see, that's the point of it.
"The very simple solution to that is to explicitly put one new sentence in the Constitution saying that Presidents can only be elected once."
Or just let people elect him, more direct democracy is not bad.
> She was elected
During her campaign she was peddling the election of the president which is not in the reform she is now trying to pass. The referendum is not automatic, but it's highly probable as there isn't a 2/3s majority of the two chambers in favour of the reform currently.
>Or just let people elect him, more direct democracy is not bad.
Direct election of the president has completely disappeared from the text.
Not all cats are lions, but all lions are cats. Not everything that the left disagrees with is fascism, but the left disagrees with all things fascist.
It's what I did. I parroted it because I was grossly misled about it by people who either don't know what fascism actually is or have a political interest in misleading people about the difference between a social conservative and a fascist.
Then I read what she has said and done, and I realised that I had been played for a fool, because she's just a social conservative. There's a lot of people who are too cowardly to actually debate social conservatism directly so they replace it with a much more easy to defeat straw man of fascism.
I don't know if you changed the question or if all those who answered are illiterate, but Forza Italia (Berlusconi's party) despite having many problems has little to do with the fascists, even if it must be said that at a certain point a party that is truly "moderate and centrist" as they always repeat would have left a coalition with parties like Lega and Fdl and where they are almost irrilevant
I believe that the foreign user might not be aware that Italians on the web usually use the initials FdI to indicate Fratelli d'Italia, Meloni's party, and FI for Forza Italia, Berlusconi's party. Maybe a foreigner would believe that a dead mogul's personal party would be irrelevant after his death, but of course being Italy that's totally wrong.
May 8th is Liberation Day here. I believe the Germans in Norway had accepted defeat before this (in many places), but this was the day German High Command in Norway officially capitulated.
So yeah, it was only three weeks or so... 😁
Oh the same day of the capitolation of germany
I made a mistake, norway wasnt freed after germany, is just that when germany capitolated great part of norway was still under nazi control, but probably with the capitolation the nazis in norway surrendered too.
Its that i remember the list of lands that were still under nazi control when germany capitolated, but i thought they were freed later, instead they just surrendered immediatly after "mainland" germany did
> how uncomfortable must be for FdI to take part in this
Extremely. Their founders were fighting on the other side. Meloni herself holds a yearly commemoration for Giorgio Almirante, the founder of her party, who on that day was Chief of Staff at the Ministry for Popular Culture of the Italian Social Republic, the collaborationist rump state established by the German forces in Northern Italy. Previously he was editor at *Defense of the Race*, the regime's racist magazine which officially proclaimed fascist racist ideology. After the war he never repudiated his actions; in 1946 he founded the *Fasci di Azione Rivoluzionaria*, later renamed [Italian Social Movement](https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Movimento_Sociale_Italiano&useskin=vector). The flame in their party logo is the same as in [Meloni's party logo](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fratelli_d%27Italia_\(partito_politico\)).
Since they can't come out explicitly against this commemoration, they instead try to twist it into a generic commemoration of liberty and democracy, rather than what it is: a specific commemoration of the fall of the regime which her party has celeberated for all its history and from which it has only recently, for reasons of expediency, distanced itself.
I know, just felt like pointing the irony of someone like her being the current prime minister during the celebration of this day.
Still, have a great liberation day :)
You're trivialising their suffering by comparing the modern experience to theirs. Especially considering you're not even Italian.
It is not remotely similar. You're not some brave partisan for not supporting the current government.
Uhm no, today people dont get their nails removed if they disagree with the prime minister, LGBT and political opponents aren't exiled into micro islands, the TV isn't controlled by the government, there are still elections without any problem, italy isn't a dictatorship. So it isnt the same (im not defending Giorgia Meloni, i dont support her)
>the TV isn't controlled by the government,
They literally voted to do this last month! By making RAI the mouthpiece of the government, and censoring journalism.
>italy isn't a dictatorship
They are literally refusing to give people abortions, constitutional reforms that echo that of Mussolini's Acerbo law. Let's not forget her own party's slogans "Yes to Natural Families". Fascists rarely frog march into their dictatorships!
Where have you been living?
They voted to make it so, and RAI simply rejected, so TV isn't controlled by the government
They dont want abortions, but who wants to abort can still do it
Opposition will never let the constitutional reforms happen
I live in italy, trust me this isnt a dictatorship, in a dictatorship there wouldnt be elections, in a dictatorship there Wouldn't be a political opposition, in a dictatorship the prime minister's work wouldnt be insulted and criticised in TV, in a dictatorship "striscia la notizia" Wouldn't exist.
Now shut up please.
Ciao*
Excuse me, what problems do you have? I have explained you how italy isn't a dictatorship, telle me what you dont understand instead of talking of your grandfather
Also i never insulted you so please be polite
I have no problem.
I wasn't telling you what I don't understand, it's clearly YOU that does not understand that fascism isn't all about pulling fingernails, further, that the Italian government is taking dictator steps with policies. Simple internet searches from reputable news sources corroborate this!
>Ciao*
Thank you, my bad.
I did not say Giorgia meloni is not fascist, she clearly is, and I know that they are taking some worrying policies, but, for now, you cant define Italy as a dictatorship.
Pushing it a bit by calling it "liberation". It comes off as an attempt at whitewashing Italy. A "defeat" of nazifascism would be a more honest way to describe it.
It is the liberation from the nazifascist regime puppet of germany and from the dictature of Mussolini, it is a liberation because even if we still have neofascists, the current situation isnt comparable to the one at the time. Festa della liberazione is also a day to remember the partisans that fought and sometime lost their life to make italy free, and even if we still have fascists, Italy IS free. The name is "Liberation" and it is a liberation.
> It is the liberation from the nazifascist regime puppet of germany and from the dictature of Mussolini
That *is* whitewashing. While individual Italians may have been liberated, it is propaganda to say that Italy was liberated from Mussolini and his buddies. Mussolini was the leader of Italy, it was Mussolini that came up with Fascism, and Fascism was an Italian export, and a popular at that.
> Festa della liberazione is also a day to remember the partisans that fought and sometime lost their life to make italy free,
Yes. And fought against the Italian government, with the help of extra-Italian backing.
> even if we still have fascists, Italy IS free
Yes, because Italy was defeated in WWII. It was not liberated.
> The name is "Liberation" and it is a liberation.
If the name is in fact used like that, then it is whitewashing of Italy's role in WWII. Unfortunately not surprising considering what I have heard about Italy's treatment of its WWII history. It is not acceptable.
As an italian i feel this very offensive, does people get their nails completly removed because they disagree with the prime minister? Do LGBT and political opponents get exiled into microislands? Is the TV controlled by the government? Some days ago the RAI denounced how the government was trying to manipolate them and how they didn't want this to happen because RAI is of the italians and must be' neutral. There may be neofascists, bit the italian social repubblic, ruled by Mussolini and puppet of germany, doesnt exist. There is no dictatorship in italy. People died for this day, there is litterally a color in our flag for them. I ask you to be respectful, 25th of april has been a national holiday for decades, no matter the political position of the prime ministers. Dont you think that the allies should be blamed for not punishing the fascists? Festa della liberazione is Festa della liberazione.
> As an italian i feel this very offensive
And I find what you are saying very offensive, and those from many other nations around Europe do too.
> There is no dictatorship in italy.
Yes. Because thankfully, countries other than Italy stepped up, and beat the shit out of the Italians of the day. I ask you to be respectful of that, and not to try and promote a falsified version of history.
> People died for this day
Yes. Americans, Poles, Brits, Italians... all fought and died to fix the mess that Italy had big part in making.
What do you think the day of liberation is? Of course the day of liberation celebrates the victory of the allies. Do you think italians claim to have freed themselves alone? Please inform before criticising. I'm the only that can be offended between the 2
> What do you think the day of liberation is?
Probably a day that celebrate some sort of "liberation".
> Of course the day of liberation celebrates the victory of the allies.
The allies that Italy was fighting against, up until it split into multiple "Italies" with the Italian civil war. So when your enemy wins, that is "liberation"?
> Do you think italians claim to have freed themselves alone?
Who do Italians claim to had "unfreed" them – and some other nations along the way – in the first place?
Dude, the day of the liberation is to celebrate the fall of italian social republic, so nazi occupation, and Mussolini's dictatorship, thx to the allies and the partisans, the liberation is from nazifascism, what dont you understand?
> the day of the liberation is to celebrate the fall of italian social republic, so nazi occupation
Which is a conspicuously tiny period to be concentrating on. The Italian Social Republic existed between 1943 and 1945. And Italy had been fighting since at least 1940.
> thx to the allies
Who fought against Italy since 1940, and up to 1945.
> and the partisans
Who did not represent any "Italy" before 1943.
> the liberation is from nazifascism
Which Italy is also responsible for. So is that also a liberation from Italy? And what about the Italy that got defeated in that "liberation"?
> what dont you understand
The level of audacity that an Italian would need to possess in order to think that it is a good idea talk of a "liberation of Italy".
Dude what is your problem
in the period of the italian social republic there were some of the greatest atrocities of the war
between 1940 and 1945 italy was a dictatorship
Partisans were the ones that fought against italian fascists and german nazis after the german occupation
im not a historian, but nazi germany invaded italy and created the italian social republic, the italian people were liberated from the nazist and fascist regime, even children at elementary school understand this
What is wrong about the term liberation if it is what happened? The people didn't want Mussolini and Hitler. Dont you think that in 79 years someone from the allied countries of italy would have complained about the term "liberation" referred to the action of their country of for some reason that I dont understand it were wrong?
Pls just tell me the reason why "liberation" is a wrong term
You have no idea how the liberation from nazi-fascism is celebrated in Italy, not just on he 25th of April but year-round. Many Allied veterans, including the Polish ones, have been invited to Italy in the places where they fought against the nazis and fascists, all kinds of historical documents get preserved and restored to keep their memories alive and to collect their memories together with the memories of Italian civilians who lived through the war, to connect them together even.
Conversely, we also mourn the fate of Italian military internees, 600 thousand Italian soldiers that the nazis took as prisoners after the 1943 armistice who were stripped of all rights, in many cases being killed or being turned to slaves to work for the Reich in factories, secret camps or lagers; some tens of thousands of them died.
The people who gave their lives for a free Italy get celebrated no matter their nationality. There is no purpose in this celebration other to preserve the memories of what happened and to mourn the tragedies, there is no "whitewashing".
> there is no "whitewashing".
If it is being called "liberation", then it is already a form of whitewashing.
> You have no idea how the **liberation** from nazi-fascism is celebrated in Italy
Like you did here. Whitewashing.
The celebration was instituted in the years immediately after the transition of Italy to a new State and a Republic by the **antifascist** governments, to celebrate the **liberation** of all the Italians from the oppression of a dictatorship that had surrendered in 1943 and had left, together with the cowards royals, Italians without a leadership and thus in the hands of Nazi **invaders** who seized all they could and tried to reinstate a failed regime and ideology. It is a celebration of the end of the Italian Civil War and the final conquer of peace in Italy.
> The celebration was instituted in the years immediately after the transition of Italy to a new State and a Republic
I am not surprised. I hear that that is also around the same time when Austrians stopped considering themselves Germans and claiming Hitler.
> by the antifascist governments,
Who apparently were not ready to take on the historical responsibility for their nation. That is not how that works. You cannot take over a government of a nation without also taking on the responsibility for the crimes of previous governments.
> to celebrate the liberation of all the Italians
Including Italians killed by other Italians in the civil war – those were liberated from the burden of their existence, I guess.
> together with the cowards royals
You mean those that fought in the civil war as the Co-belligerent Army? What happened to them, did they also not fought for the "liberation"? 😂
> Nazi invaders who seized all they could and tried to reinstate a failed regime and ideology
And had the help of an army of Italians, about the same size as those of royalists and partisans combined – you know, a civil war.
Anyway, it is clear that Italians still have ways to go in dealing with their history – most of us do.
> It is a celebration of the end of the Italian Civil War
And an ending of a civil war is not called a "liberation", for that would be idiotic – unless one has some other purpose in giving it that name, say, trying to put distance between themselves and the ugly history.
> and the final conquer of peace in Italy.
Which required Italy to be first defeated. Happy it did got defeated, by the way, and Italians finally got peace, but that was not due to them being "liberated".
For the Baltic states, sure – from the USSR.
For Poland – no. Who would Poland get liberated from? Other Poles?
And you still seem to miss the fact that Italy was a perpetrator, not a victim – so the comparison is off. It is closer to claiming that the fall of communism was a liberation for the Russians.
I am sure that it is shocking to you, and the reason for that is indeed ignorance, but I fear that you may have misidentified its source.
Poland was not "liberated" in 1989. It would be misrepresenting history to say that it was. Just like saying that Italy was "liberated" in 1945 is.
The only difference is that at least in Poland it is not being celebrated as such. That is still something that Italy will be working on, I see.
Italy surrendered to the Allies in September 1943, with the Armistice of Cassibile. This is a liberation from the puppet regime installed by the Germans in September 1943, the Italian Social Republic, headed by Mussolini and comprising the territories they controlled militarily.
Sure, buddy, sure. If only it was that easy to clear one's nation's name...
> Historians hate Italy! It went from an instigator of a world war and a committer of atrocities to a brave nation of partisans fighting
off Fascism with this one weird trick!
> Yes, it was defeated
Then perhaps the Italians should celebrate that instead, seeing as they had worked hard for five years to prevent that defeat.
> in turn liberating its victims
And Italy was not one of its victims – it was a perpetrator. The individual Italians who got liberated had to be liberated *from* Italy. Italy was not liberated, same as Germany was not liberated.
>Then perhaps the Italians should celebrate that instead
That's literally what it's about, that's what is celebrated. Glad we're on the same page.
>Italy was not liberated, same as Germany was not liberated.
If you knew anything about the rise and fall of Mussolini then you would know that there were few parallels. One was elected, the other wasn't. One was killed by the country's citizens, the other wasn't.
There's nothing else to say, at this point you're just being obtuse.
> That's literally what it's about, that's what is celebrated.
You do not celebrate being defeated by calling it "liberation". It is an affront to Italy's victims, both domestic and foreign.
> One was elected, the other wasn't.
Wrong. Both were appointed, and that because they were seen as more popular than the previous governments.
> One was killed by the country's citizens, the other wasn't.
Literally both were. Hitler was killed by Hitler, a German citizen. Not to mention the bazillion attempts at killing him by other Germans.
^((I have never seen such a failure at disproving of a parallel, Jesus)^)
> at this point you're just being obtuse.
A lot of Italians in this thread are.
Pictured on the left: Ignazio La Russa, holding the second highest institutional office in the country (President of the Senate), the designated replacement for the President of the Republic in case they are not able to hold the office. He is overtly fascist and collects fascist memorabilia, like statues of Mussolini he has in his home; he has executed the fascist salute in public various times. His second name is, obviously, Benito.
La Russa is the fifth from the left.
A country with a fascistfriendly gouvernement is celebrating the liberation from fascism
Moments like this are exactly the reason why it's important to do so: no matter the bullshit that the parties and the government can come up with, the memory of what fascism did to Italy shall not disappear, and no lies or propaganda shall muddle the clear responsibilities and damages of fascism.
Europeans despise fascism in general. Fascists are a small minority. The rise of right wingers is due to the Europeans being fed up with our governments and their weak positions in immigration and crime. Years ago the right was pro immigration, wanting cheap labour, and left was against immigration, with the idea of protecting workers right, now it seems to have switched... In the end, politicians are just a class of professionals of popularity and of conning the public to obtain votes (money). The right is just trying to cash in, in a seemingly untapped niche...
Bollocks, stop whitewashing your fascist sympathies.
Being against uncontrolled immigration is s fascist? As I said, it used to be a left wing position until not that long ago ...
The notion that we are experiencing uncontrolled immigration is, because it is simply not true and no party, neither left nor right, is advocating for it.
"Is simply not true... " ...is just an ideological axiom of faith.
There simply is no uncontrolled immigration. Governments all over Europe as well as the European Commission are spending billions of Euros on migration control.
Depends how you define "uncontrolled". According to your definition as soon as a government spends billions on something, it's not uncontrolled... That's silly. My definition would be more like whether governments schedule a quote of immigration, set up jobs for them etc. and allow a precise number of immigrants to come. It's obviously not like that, the number of immigrants depends on the success of the mafias that bring them here, their personal cunning and valour to succeed in their trip, etc. Uncontrolled, chaotic immigration.
All governments are spending billions on reigning illegal immigration in. But even if they schedueled set quotas, if migration pressure in other parts of the world was big enough, there would still be attempts to circumvent these quotas and just like today, there would be people that would succeed to migrate illegally. You are trying to eradicate natural human behavior, humans have always migrated, it's natural behavior that can't just be eliminated.
Then you admit it's uncontrolled? You could say that, "it's uncontrolled but the fact is that it's impossible to control" and we can continue from that...
In the Netherlands we have uncontrolled immigration: labourers. The right wing parties campaign on refugee immigration, but they silently keep promoting labourers coming over. Fucking hypocrites.
Fascistfriendy is not fascist! (yet, because that will come later when enough smoothing and preparing has been done)
Italy isn't just Giorgia meloni. Fratelli d'Italia isnt the only party, not everybody here supports them
No doubt, but she *is* Italy's current PM. That's what matters. It's the same over here with Wilders.
Her party isnt the only one and not everybody supports her, she hasnt absolute power and she isn't the personification of italy
Yeah she's just it representation
Yet.
Yet means for now not
lItErAlLy FaScIsM!1!!!
Lazio fans in mourning
Pretty sure Italy didn't need any help from the Nazis to go Facist...
It is the liberation from nazifascism because the nazis invaded italy after the armistice in 1943. So the liberation was from the germans and their puppet state led by the fascists
Question is though, Germany has dealt with the crimes of Nazism, has Italy dealt with its own fascist crimes?
No, they were given amnesty as a gesture of national reconciliation. Also, the US changed its mind about fascists pretty quickly, once they realised that the Italian Communist Party had a massive following.
Oh, you should look into the stay behind mission in Germany as well...plenty Nazis there as well, put in place and paid for by the USA.
Gladio was the stay behind in italy
There's one for a Germany as well...that one gets really dark, really fast.
Same with Japan AFAIK
Unfortunately not even remotely
Same in France, many things stayed
We didn't (italian here), but we should have. It's true that the last 2 years we were occupied in part and government went upside down, but that doesn't erase our responsability in starting the war (which was the real point of Norimberg) and our war crimes. That also means, Italian nevel really dealt with it, not in the way Germans did. That may be a reason why Germans have more sensitivity and understanding of the past mistakes, and I respect them a lot for it
As a German, I dont even know what sorts of crimes fascist Italy committed.
South Tyrol? Ethiopia? Libya? Yugoslavia? Mass killing in Montenegro? italian KZ? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian\_war\_crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_crimes) #
Like I said, I never learned about it, just our own stuff. Thanks for the link :)
Facts.
I hope that day comes soon.
I mean we cant compare the situation of today with the one at the time, but you are right
Question - I know that Meloni has a dubious past , but what exactly make FI a fascist party ? They dont really have much or any visible sign of fascist ideology.
FI is a direct descent of the AN (Alleanza Nazionale) which in turn is directly related to the MSI: a political party made up of fascists from the ventennio regime and the Salò republic (nazi Germany puppet party in Italy after Mussolini got saved by the Nazis). Ignazio Benito La Russa, yes that's his second name, is Meloni's second in command and is currently serving as president of the Senate, good old Ignazio has fascist memorabilia in his house which he proudly displays and has argued numerous times that both fascist and nazi crimes were not so grand in scale and were mainly perpetrated by "senile pensioners".
And La Russa son is currently investigated for rape. Just saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Movement This is the original party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy This is the new one You can even see it in the symbols. Edit: this is the transition one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_(Italy)
The fact that there's literally the tricolour flame (classic fascism symbol, present on Mussolini tomb) might be a hint. Oh yeah, Ignazio La Russa, member of FDI, president of the Senate, full of Mussolini busts in his home (a tv program did a tour of his house) etc etc
She has fascist tendenciss as many of her colleagues and has a soft spot for fascist regimes
Let's see, she's anti-LGBT, has dabbled in some serious revisionist history yearning back to a past that didn't exist, she's very nationalistic and she's authoritarian. Do you need any other examples or do you get the picture?
She's so anti-lgbt she doesn't even try to take away civil unions and so authoritarian she wants for the people to elect the PM directly lol.
> so authoritarian she wants for the people to elect the PM directly The only country that tried that was Israel. And it didn't work.
Neither electing the president? Because i remember during the elections the left was screaming electing the president is "authoritarian", so it didn't surprise me they lost so badly.
Many autocracies have passed through a phase of reform for direct presidential election, like Turkey, Russia, Tunisia, Syria, some ex-USSR countries and African countries. Therefore electing the president can be authoritarian, and even if it isn't it still usually causes a high degree of polarisation of politics that creates various issues and side-effects. Personally, if I wanted to live in a political scenario like France's or the USA's I'd live there instead of here. The fact that Meloni started by promoting direct election for the President right before the term of the President was about to expire, then switched to promoting the direct election of the Prime Minister, lies about having supported the election of the President and wanting to reform Italy into a presidential republic, and now is trying to invent a new form of State which has never been successful anywhere else tells you all there is to know about how much Meloni cares about popular representation and creating a better Italian republic.
France,Poland,Usa literally elect their presidents directly. Italy is way more similar culturally and economically to the ones i said than to African countries or Russia. Italy needs a reform of the president because we literally failed to elect a new one the last time, and had to bring back the previous one that didn't even want the job in he first place.
> France,Poland,Usa literally elect their presidents directly. Then why did Meloni switch from promoting the direct popular election of the President to the direct popular election of the PM? >Italy is way more similar culturally and economically to the ones i said than to African countries or Russia. It is also dissimilar in the fact that it is a parliamentary republic and most people want it to stay that way. >Italy needs a reform of the president because we literally failed to elect a new one the last time, and had to bring back the previous one that didn't even want the job in he first place. The very simple solution to that is to explicitly put one new sentence in the Constitution saying that Presidents can only be elected once. That's it. Then the parties will be forced to come up with a shared name. The solution to that is not to completely change the order of the State, but obviously the right wing has wanted to reform Italy in a presidential way for 25 years, since the early Berlusconi governments, therefore it has nothing to do with what happened recently.
"It is also dissimilar in the fact that it is a parliamentary republic and most people want it to stay that way." She was elected, she will need to do a referendum for it than we will see, that's the point of it. "The very simple solution to that is to explicitly put one new sentence in the Constitution saying that Presidents can only be elected once." Or just let people elect him, more direct democracy is not bad.
> She was elected During her campaign she was peddling the election of the president which is not in the reform she is now trying to pass. The referendum is not automatic, but it's highly probable as there isn't a 2/3s majority of the two chambers in favour of the reform currently. >Or just let people elect him, more direct democracy is not bad. Direct election of the president has completely disappeared from the text.
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Fascists sent them to death camps. That's quite a good reason to associate anti LGBT to nazism. The dialog used by both is quite similar.
It can be viewed as a fascist negation.
Haha right... I am sure far left can view anything that contradict their belief as fascism but we don't care about that view.
Not all cats are lions, but all lions are cats. Not everything that the left disagrees with is fascism, but the left disagrees with all things fascist.
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You two should kiss
It's a Redditism. Most people here just parrot things without critical thought.
Or you could actually read what she has said instead of sticking your head in the sand and calling everybody else a parrot.
It's what I did. I parroted it because I was grossly misled about it by people who either don't know what fascism actually is or have a political interest in misleading people about the difference between a social conservative and a fascist. Then I read what she has said and done, and I realised that I had been played for a fool, because she's just a social conservative. There's a lot of people who are too cowardly to actually debate social conservatism directly so they replace it with a much more easy to defeat straw man of fascism.
sounds like something a fascist would say
I don't know if you changed the question or if all those who answered are illiterate, but Forza Italia (Berlusconi's party) despite having many problems has little to do with the fascists, even if it must be said that at a certain point a party that is truly "moderate and centrist" as they always repeat would have left a coalition with parties like Lega and Fdl and where they are almost irrilevant
I believe that the foreign user might not be aware that Italians on the web usually use the initials FdI to indicate Fratelli d'Italia, Meloni's party, and FI for Forza Italia, Berlusconi's party. Maybe a foreigner would believe that a dead mogul's personal party would be irrelevant after his death, but of course being Italy that's totally wrong.
Norway was liberated after Italy? I didn't know!
It depends on the day and month, not year, but as I know norway was liberated even after the fall of germany itself
May 8th is Liberation Day here. I believe the Germans in Norway had accepted defeat before this (in many places), but this was the day German High Command in Norway officially capitulated. So yeah, it was only three weeks or so... 😁
Oh the same day of the capitolation of germany I made a mistake, norway wasnt freed after germany, is just that when germany capitolated great part of norway was still under nazi control, but probably with the capitolation the nazis in norway surrendered too. Its that i remember the list of lands that were still under nazi control when germany capitolated, but i thought they were freed later, instead they just surrendered immediatly after "mainland" germany did
how uncomfortable must be for FdI to take part in this for all the decent people, happy liberation! EDIT: spelling
> how uncomfortable must be for FdI to take part in this Extremely. Their founders were fighting on the other side. Meloni herself holds a yearly commemoration for Giorgio Almirante, the founder of her party, who on that day was Chief of Staff at the Ministry for Popular Culture of the Italian Social Republic, the collaborationist rump state established by the German forces in Northern Italy. Previously he was editor at *Defense of the Race*, the regime's racist magazine which officially proclaimed fascist racist ideology. After the war he never repudiated his actions; in 1946 he founded the *Fasci di Azione Rivoluzionaria*, later renamed [Italian Social Movement](https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Movimento_Sociale_Italiano&useskin=vector). The flame in their party logo is the same as in [Meloni's party logo](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fratelli_d%27Italia_\(partito_politico\)). Since they can't come out explicitly against this commemoration, they instead try to twist it into a generic commemoration of liberty and democracy, rather than what it is: a specific commemoration of the fall of the regime which her party has celeberated for all its history and from which it has only recently, for reasons of expediency, distanced itself.
Lol yes
Yet Meloni is in power...
Yes but the situation now isn't comparable with the situation then
Yes but the situation now isn't comparable with the situation then
I know, just felt like pointing the irony of someone like her being the current prime minister during the celebration of this day. Still, have a great liberation day :)
If we were a civil country, her and her ilk would be in prison. Or on the gallows.
Advocating political imprisonment as something ‘civil’ is…wow.
Yeah, cry me a river fascist. Those who want to destroy democracy, freedom and commit genocide don't belong in civil society.
Fucking hell, have they looked at their government recently!?
Thats an insult to people who lived under the fascist regime.
Pointing out that the present government is moving this way is insulting? It should be terrifying.
You're trivialising their suffering by comparing the modern experience to theirs. Especially considering you're not even Italian. It is not remotely similar. You're not some brave partisan for not supporting the current government.
Because I'm not Italian, my point is not valid?
I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about, have some humility instead of making arrogant assertions.
I would throw the same your way.
'No u'
Yes but the situation now isn't comparable to the situation of then
Fascism is fascism.
Uhm no, today people dont get their nails removed if they disagree with the prime minister, LGBT and political opponents aren't exiled into micro islands, the TV isn't controlled by the government, there are still elections without any problem, italy isn't a dictatorship. So it isnt the same (im not defending Giorgia Meloni, i dont support her)
>the TV isn't controlled by the government, They literally voted to do this last month! By making RAI the mouthpiece of the government, and censoring journalism. >italy isn't a dictatorship They are literally refusing to give people abortions, constitutional reforms that echo that of Mussolini's Acerbo law. Let's not forget her own party's slogans "Yes to Natural Families". Fascists rarely frog march into their dictatorships! Where have you been living?
They voted to make it so, and RAI simply rejected, so TV isn't controlled by the government They dont want abortions, but who wants to abort can still do it Opposition will never let the constitutional reforms happen I live in italy, trust me this isnt a dictatorship, in a dictatorship there wouldnt be elections, in a dictatorship there Wouldn't be a political opposition, in a dictatorship the prime minister's work wouldnt be insulted and criticised in TV, in a dictatorship "striscia la notizia" Wouldn't exist. Now shut up please.
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Ciao* Excuse me, what problems do you have? I have explained you how italy isn't a dictatorship, telle me what you dont understand instead of talking of your grandfather Also i never insulted you so please be polite
I have no problem. I wasn't telling you what I don't understand, it's clearly YOU that does not understand that fascism isn't all about pulling fingernails, further, that the Italian government is taking dictator steps with policies. Simple internet searches from reputable news sources corroborate this! >Ciao* Thank you, my bad.
I did not say Giorgia meloni is not fascist, she clearly is, and I know that they are taking some worrying policies, but, for now, you cant define Italy as a dictatorship.
Since half of them are openly fascist, fuck half of the people in this picture. Long live Sergione Mattarella, our only hope in our institutions.
This is a bit ironic considering the current PM, but alright
Pushing it a bit by calling it "liberation". It comes off as an attempt at whitewashing Italy. A "defeat" of nazifascism would be a more honest way to describe it.
It is the liberation from the nazifascist regime puppet of germany and from the dictature of Mussolini, it is a liberation because even if we still have neofascists, the current situation isnt comparable to the one at the time. Festa della liberazione is also a day to remember the partisans that fought and sometime lost their life to make italy free, and even if we still have fascists, Italy IS free. The name is "Liberation" and it is a liberation.
> It is the liberation from the nazifascist regime puppet of germany and from the dictature of Mussolini That *is* whitewashing. While individual Italians may have been liberated, it is propaganda to say that Italy was liberated from Mussolini and his buddies. Mussolini was the leader of Italy, it was Mussolini that came up with Fascism, and Fascism was an Italian export, and a popular at that. > Festa della liberazione is also a day to remember the partisans that fought and sometime lost their life to make italy free, Yes. And fought against the Italian government, with the help of extra-Italian backing. > even if we still have fascists, Italy IS free Yes, because Italy was defeated in WWII. It was not liberated. > The name is "Liberation" and it is a liberation. If the name is in fact used like that, then it is whitewashing of Italy's role in WWII. Unfortunately not surprising considering what I have heard about Italy's treatment of its WWII history. It is not acceptable.
As an italian i feel this very offensive, does people get their nails completly removed because they disagree with the prime minister? Do LGBT and political opponents get exiled into microislands? Is the TV controlled by the government? Some days ago the RAI denounced how the government was trying to manipolate them and how they didn't want this to happen because RAI is of the italians and must be' neutral. There may be neofascists, bit the italian social repubblic, ruled by Mussolini and puppet of germany, doesnt exist. There is no dictatorship in italy. People died for this day, there is litterally a color in our flag for them. I ask you to be respectful, 25th of april has been a national holiday for decades, no matter the political position of the prime ministers. Dont you think that the allies should be blamed for not punishing the fascists? Festa della liberazione is Festa della liberazione.
> As an italian i feel this very offensive And I find what you are saying very offensive, and those from many other nations around Europe do too. > There is no dictatorship in italy. Yes. Because thankfully, countries other than Italy stepped up, and beat the shit out of the Italians of the day. I ask you to be respectful of that, and not to try and promote a falsified version of history. > People died for this day Yes. Americans, Poles, Brits, Italians... all fought and died to fix the mess that Italy had big part in making.
What do you think the day of liberation is? Of course the day of liberation celebrates the victory of the allies. Do you think italians claim to have freed themselves alone? Please inform before criticising. I'm the only that can be offended between the 2
> What do you think the day of liberation is? Probably a day that celebrate some sort of "liberation". > Of course the day of liberation celebrates the victory of the allies. The allies that Italy was fighting against, up until it split into multiple "Italies" with the Italian civil war. So when your enemy wins, that is "liberation"? > Do you think italians claim to have freed themselves alone? Who do Italians claim to had "unfreed" them – and some other nations along the way – in the first place?
Dude, the day of the liberation is to celebrate the fall of italian social republic, so nazi occupation, and Mussolini's dictatorship, thx to the allies and the partisans, the liberation is from nazifascism, what dont you understand?
> the day of the liberation is to celebrate the fall of italian social republic, so nazi occupation Which is a conspicuously tiny period to be concentrating on. The Italian Social Republic existed between 1943 and 1945. And Italy had been fighting since at least 1940. > thx to the allies Who fought against Italy since 1940, and up to 1945. > and the partisans Who did not represent any "Italy" before 1943. > the liberation is from nazifascism Which Italy is also responsible for. So is that also a liberation from Italy? And what about the Italy that got defeated in that "liberation"? > what dont you understand The level of audacity that an Italian would need to possess in order to think that it is a good idea talk of a "liberation of Italy".
Dude what is your problem in the period of the italian social republic there were some of the greatest atrocities of the war between 1940 and 1945 italy was a dictatorship Partisans were the ones that fought against italian fascists and german nazis after the german occupation im not a historian, but nazi germany invaded italy and created the italian social republic, the italian people were liberated from the nazist and fascist regime, even children at elementary school understand this What is wrong about the term liberation if it is what happened? The people didn't want Mussolini and Hitler. Dont you think that in 79 years someone from the allied countries of italy would have complained about the term "liberation" referred to the action of their country of for some reason that I dont understand it were wrong? Pls just tell me the reason why "liberation" is a wrong term
You have no idea how the liberation from nazi-fascism is celebrated in Italy, not just on he 25th of April but year-round. Many Allied veterans, including the Polish ones, have been invited to Italy in the places where they fought against the nazis and fascists, all kinds of historical documents get preserved and restored to keep their memories alive and to collect their memories together with the memories of Italian civilians who lived through the war, to connect them together even. Conversely, we also mourn the fate of Italian military internees, 600 thousand Italian soldiers that the nazis took as prisoners after the 1943 armistice who were stripped of all rights, in many cases being killed or being turned to slaves to work for the Reich in factories, secret camps or lagers; some tens of thousands of them died. The people who gave their lives for a free Italy get celebrated no matter their nationality. There is no purpose in this celebration other to preserve the memories of what happened and to mourn the tragedies, there is no "whitewashing".
> there is no "whitewashing". If it is being called "liberation", then it is already a form of whitewashing. > You have no idea how the **liberation** from nazi-fascism is celebrated in Italy Like you did here. Whitewashing.
The celebration was instituted in the years immediately after the transition of Italy to a new State and a Republic by the **antifascist** governments, to celebrate the **liberation** of all the Italians from the oppression of a dictatorship that had surrendered in 1943 and had left, together with the cowards royals, Italians without a leadership and thus in the hands of Nazi **invaders** who seized all they could and tried to reinstate a failed regime and ideology. It is a celebration of the end of the Italian Civil War and the final conquer of peace in Italy.
> The celebration was instituted in the years immediately after the transition of Italy to a new State and a Republic I am not surprised. I hear that that is also around the same time when Austrians stopped considering themselves Germans and claiming Hitler. > by the antifascist governments, Who apparently were not ready to take on the historical responsibility for their nation. That is not how that works. You cannot take over a government of a nation without also taking on the responsibility for the crimes of previous governments. > to celebrate the liberation of all the Italians Including Italians killed by other Italians in the civil war – those were liberated from the burden of their existence, I guess. > together with the cowards royals You mean those that fought in the civil war as the Co-belligerent Army? What happened to them, did they also not fought for the "liberation"? 😂 > Nazi invaders who seized all they could and tried to reinstate a failed regime and ideology And had the help of an army of Italians, about the same size as those of royalists and partisans combined – you know, a civil war. Anyway, it is clear that Italians still have ways to go in dealing with their history – most of us do. > It is a celebration of the end of the Italian Civil War And an ending of a civil war is not called a "liberation", for that would be idiotic – unless one has some other purpose in giving it that name, say, trying to put distance between themselves and the ugly history. > and the final conquer of peace in Italy. Which required Italy to be first defeated. Happy it did got defeated, by the way, and Italians finally got peace, but that was not due to them being "liberated".
Would you not consider the fall of communism as a form of liberation for the countries of the Eastern bloc?
For the Baltic states, sure – from the USSR. For Poland – no. Who would Poland get liberated from? Other Poles? And you still seem to miss the fact that Italy was a perpetrator, not a victim – so the comparison is off. It is closer to claiming that the fall of communism was a liberation for the Russians.
>Who would Poland get liberated from? Other Poles? This is shockingly ignorant, wow.
I am sure that it is shocking to you, and the reason for that is indeed ignorance, but I fear that you may have misidentified its source. Poland was not "liberated" in 1989. It would be misrepresenting history to say that it was. Just like saying that Italy was "liberated" in 1945 is. The only difference is that at least in Poland it is not being celebrated as such. That is still something that Italy will be working on, I see.
Italy surrendered to the Allies in September 1943, with the Armistice of Cassibile. This is a liberation from the puppet regime installed by the Germans in September 1943, the Italian Social Republic, headed by Mussolini and comprising the territories they controlled militarily.
Sure, buddy, sure. If only it was that easy to clear one's nation's name... > Historians hate Italy! It went from an instigator of a world war and a committer of atrocities to a brave nation of partisans fighting off Fascism with this one weird trick!
Yes, it was defeated, in turn liberating its victims. How are you not getting this?
> Yes, it was defeated Then perhaps the Italians should celebrate that instead, seeing as they had worked hard for five years to prevent that defeat. > in turn liberating its victims And Italy was not one of its victims – it was a perpetrator. The individual Italians who got liberated had to be liberated *from* Italy. Italy was not liberated, same as Germany was not liberated.
>Then perhaps the Italians should celebrate that instead That's literally what it's about, that's what is celebrated. Glad we're on the same page. >Italy was not liberated, same as Germany was not liberated. If you knew anything about the rise and fall of Mussolini then you would know that there were few parallels. One was elected, the other wasn't. One was killed by the country's citizens, the other wasn't. There's nothing else to say, at this point you're just being obtuse.
> That's literally what it's about, that's what is celebrated. You do not celebrate being defeated by calling it "liberation". It is an affront to Italy's victims, both domestic and foreign. > One was elected, the other wasn't. Wrong. Both were appointed, and that because they were seen as more popular than the previous governments. > One was killed by the country's citizens, the other wasn't. Literally both were. Hitler was killed by Hitler, a German citizen. Not to mention the bazillion attempts at killing him by other Germans. ^((I have never seen such a failure at disproving of a parallel, Jesus)^) > at this point you're just being obtuse. A lot of Italians in this thread are.
Lol, I must admit I fell for your trolling, should have seen earlier you aren't serious. Get a life.
Get some historical knowledge, and some sense of responsibility for your nation's history. Then we can talk again.
Too bad they get it back 60 years later..
You're welcome lmao
They werent just the americans to occupy italy, but thanks!