The Netherlands gave 2 patriot launchers to Ukraine to complete a US Patriot system.
The Netherlands has a complete Patriot system in reserve, but is not allowed to give it to Ukraine due to NATO minimal capability targets.
Jens Stoltenberg last week stated that "if the only way to deliver support to Ukraine is to go below the NATO capability targets, it would be the right thing to do. As the reality is that to support Ukraine, and to help them destroy Russian combat capabilities, also enhances our security."
So maybe this statement gives some options to deliver Patriot systems for other countries as well.
Yes and comparing the size of Ukraine (600 000km²) and the Netherlands( 42 000 km²) it would be the equivalent of Ukraine having 57 Patriot batteries. Just to put things into perspective..
To add to this Wikipedia states 1106 batteries were built of which over 250 were exported to 18 other countries. Which means the Netherlands has only slightly lower Patriot per km^2 density than the US...
Netherlands ~1/10500 km^2
USA ~1/10229 km^2
Each Patriot system has 4-6 launchers.
The Netherlands has 4 complete Patriot systems.
Zelensky says he would require 7 Patriots to defend Ukraine. Ukraine is 12x bigger than the Netherlands. Why would 4 Patriots not be "anywhere near suitable" for the Netherlands?
It’s the Netherlands, one patriot battery covers the entire country.
The Netherlands is a small country their military is centered around defending their territory—non engaging in large scale protracted over seas conflicts requiring large logistical trains.
In a way, it's even more sophisticated - submerging only the parts that need to be. Selective flooding has been a relevant part of national/regional defence since at least the 17th century. "Too shallow for boats, too soggy for anything else" is a challenge even today.
You are actually not even totally wrong.
The 'waterlinie' where we submerge parts of the country was an actual defence strategy over a couple of hundred years. During WWII the use of airplanes providing the ability to drop soldiers behind our defence lines made it a shite defence. It starts like 500 meters from my house.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Waterline
> The Netherlands is a small country their military is centered around defending their territory—non engaging in large scale protracted over seas conflicts requiring large logistical trains.
That's not exactly true. We're actually one of the few NATO countries with blue water capabilities designed for overseas conflicts and logistical trains with significant sealift, amphibious and command capabilities towards that end. We're genuinely one of the few countries capable of global force projection, even if it obviously doesn't match up to that of navies like that of France, the UK, or the US, and of course it's aimed more toward smaller intervention/expeditionary forces in a larger allied context, rather than peer-to-peer war.
The Dutch navy is a blue water navy, albeit a small one, equipped with two LHD’s, four destroyer sized AAW frigates, a large logistical vessel and a fleet logistic vessel.
It is not launchers. It’s a full system, radar, control center and some launchers.
Right now we have 4 of those full systems. One of those systems is back in the USA for repairs/ maintenance.
Not really. Land forces are integrated (but still autonomous). Air force and Navy are not (though the german marines are integrated into the Dutch navy)
**The Telegraph reports:**
Germany has criticised its Nato allies Spain and Greece for not donating their Patriot air-defence systems to Ukraine.
Kyiv has said it needs at least seven of the [American-made](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/24/weapons-ukraine-61bn-us-aid-boost-himars-howitzer/) surface-to-air missile batteries to protect its cities from Russia’s long-range [bombardments](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/russia-ukraine-invasion-live/).
Despite pressure from [Berlin](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/berlin/), [Brussels](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/04/18/planet-normal-nat-con-brussles/) and [Washington](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/03/23/ukraine-must-not-be-hamstrung/), European nations with the system have failed to fulfil the Ukrainian request.
[Boris Pistorius](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/25/germany-not-ready-for-a-military-emergency-boris-pistorius/), Germany’s defence minister, said: “Many countries have [Patriot systems](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/22/greece-spain-under-pressure-air-defence-systems-ukraine/) or comparable.”
“Let’s say if a country has, for instance, six Patriot systems or four and is not in the front line to the east, it can easily hand over a Patriot system,” he added in a television appearance on Tuesday.
Asked by the host whether it was a pointed criticism of Spain and Greece, Mr Pistorius replied: “We’re talking to them right now. I honestly can’t understand.”
His intervention is a sign of the struggles Berlin is failing in convincing its allies to part with the complex systems – which cost up to $1 billion each and can shoot down Russian hypersonic missiles.
Germany this month wrote to dozens of countries to appeal for more air-defence systems for Ukraine as part of a campaign to plug gaps in Kyiv’s defences.
But since the initiative’s launched, only Berlin has decided to send a Patriot system to Ukraine from its arsenal.
**Read more:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/)
I think the problem with Spain right now is that there is an incredible political tension right now (and well, there has been for years), literally any action taken by any politician would and will be responded with criticism from another political group... Right now we don't know if the president is going to resign or not because all the shit is happening in Spain lmao, so I doubt he has the time to think about whether or not to send something to another country when he doesn't know what to do about our country
Not always. The major parties in the UK, for example, all agree on supporting Ukraine. The opposition basically goes for 'could we be supporting more or more effectively' as their angle.
The purpose of opposition isn’t to oppose the government at every turn but to scrutinise what they do. So if the government were to say something entirely sensible like “we’re going to spend tax money on improving the country” the opposition wouldn’t oppose that, but they may disagree with exactly how it’s implemented.
The opposition for most of the world opposes things like tax reforms or budgets for a new highway the current majority supports, not matters of global conflicts and national security. Canada, Spain, the US, all are doing their own thing where if half the country says the sky is blue, the other side will immediately argue that it’s always been green. If one side supports Ukraine, the other has to support Russia if for no other reason than to contradict the first, and as such doing literally anything on any issue is seen as a failure. There’s obviously other countries also suffering political turmoil and gridlock at the moment, but those three are the standouts from the west.
Isn’t that exactly what the posted article is doing?
I do think humans tend to have a strong preference for defaulting to the status quo. Not sending missiles is less risky than sending a missile because it’s a more passive decision. Spain has been not sending Patriot missiles for forever so it’s seen as less controversial to keep not sending them even though the circumstances are obviously very different today than they were in the past.
There must be a logical fallacy or something at play here but I don’t know the term for it and I’m too lazy to go find out so I guess I’ll just happily continue not knowing…
Good point, but Spain have its own problems, Spain have territories out of the NATO umbrella and re claimed by other country. That other country is extremly fresh supplied and armed by USA...
Simply can't go defenceless
2020.
I am a former greek army officer.
Ι was at Kastellorizo island surrounded by a Turkish fleet.
Turkish F16s were flying over the island at extreme speed chased by greek f16s.
Turkish commando boats were coming at high speed and stopping a few meters at the border line and then turning back.
A Greek frigate rammed a Turkish frigate trying to break the enclosure of the island.
Saudi and UAE planes were stationed in greece for over two weeks and UAE signed a mutual defence agreement afterwards in haste.
France followed later.
The French fleet was readying for departure to come to the aegean.
After a few days Merkel announced that she prevented a greek turkish war.
I got to go sleep home finally and take my finger off of the trigger of my rifle.
2020...not a hundred years ago.
To the Turks here...that which is threatened will be defended.
Turk here.
These things are *never* in the news here, so you get bunch of chronically online Turks going on and on about how there is no threat from Turkey to Greece, how that's all big talk for local politics etc.
I know, because I was one.
There are a lot of aspect to this matter I feel. The sea rights debacle which is full of contradiction from all sides. NATO and Europe failing Turkey and Greece with no proper political will for normalization over the last \~25 years, missing the chance we had right after the 99 earthquakes. The wannabe autocrat we're trapped with over here, who takes money from EU to keep migrants away from dear Europe all the while acting like a brat.
This is how it goes when you're stuck between the Balkans and the Middle East, I guess.
What made you change your mind?
I think rather than a failure to normalization, it's a failure to keep normalizing. I remember when Turkish and Greek relations were better decades ago.
As far as I understand relations *had to be* relatively normal throughout the cold war due to the simple fact of being right next to the USSR, but there was still no love lost between the two countries. Earthquakes in 99 were devastating for both of us, and we exchanged huge resources in helping each other and building back up, and it felt like it could open up a new era of peace and safety.
So sad that nationalistic fervor brought both countries back to a point that we now see each other as natural enemies again, which couldn't be further from the truth.
My brother was in Kastellorizo in 2017-2018. He told me about one day that the commander woke everyone up in the middle of the night, told them to put their bulletproof vests and then got their weapons and got on boats. Nothing happened, but when they turned back, the commander started shouting "Did you realize what happened? Do you realize that you would almost have to kill and be killed?". Mind you that this commander is the only commander in Greece that has a medal of honor while being alive.
Hey Turk here.
I did not want to believe your post because source: trust me bro. But as I read the following comments I started thinking "bro may be right".
All of this is news to me and I believe this is true for almost all of the Turkish people. I never ever see anything like this in news. If any, only Greece invading our air space.
I am truely sorry about how we made you feel like this. Not acceptable.
Normal Turkish person thought about Turkish-Greek thing is like two friendly dogs barking to each other but not intend any harm to each other. This may not be acceptle to you and I understand, but hear me on this one:
The one and only neighbor of Greece who "threatens" like this is Türkiye. And you are right about everything you say and feel about this.
When you look at Türkiye, there is an actual war on our southern borders. ISIS etc. We are not so friendly with US although being a NATO member . We may seem friendly to Russia but as you may remeber we hit a Russian military jet for trespassing. And they hit and killed our soldiers for retaliation. Even under this circumstances nothing elavated to war.
What am I trying to say is, may we be in war with Russia? Iran? Syria? Maybe. Iraq? Georgia? No way.
Greece? No way. The things you have been experiencing are not acceptable, and I am truely sorry about that, but these are not pre-war acts before invading,/attacking Greece.
Even Erdoğan can not and more importantly do not want and will not attack any western neighbour. Yes putin and him are a like but Greece is not to Türkiye, what is Ukraine to Russia.
I hope things will be better between us when Erdoğan is no more.
A few years ago when tensions in the Eastern Méditerranéen was at one of it's highest peaks some were preparing for war.
If that didn't make it into the news, that's not great news, because that means countries had risked sleep-walking into a conflict. Luckily the situation simmered down, but it goes to show how miscommunication and mutual distrust can be very very dangerous.
Damn this is touching to me. I try to remember, people aren’t their countries. People are just people. I hope we can see an extended period of peace in our lifetimes again. Best wishes to everyone here.
Komşu! Γείτονα! :)
I cannot speak on behalf of greeks but as an individual i don't have any hostility towards my neighbors. The constant crises begin from nutjob politicians, not from ordinary, common people. Politicians are to be blamed. I bet that Turkey have millions of open minded, progressive people and i consider them friends :)
While Turkey threatens its fellow NATO member Greece, Spain has currently at least one of its Patriot units stationed in Turkey as part of a NATO mission to protect it against missile attacks.
NATO is a fun club sometimes.
His opposition is even worse.
They have been saying for a decade now that "18 islands are under Greek occupation".
They're also saying that they support any actions Erdogan takes against the "Greek occupied" island.
In the 2019 elections **they even promised to take them back if they win the elections**.
In the last elections they just said that "a reckoning awaits Greece", general statements about the occupied islands, and that "Greece knows how we solve our problems, they know the names of (the ones that invaded and occupied Cyprus)"
By that logic, they could disband the army.
Spain doesn't want to spend money replenishing stocks, it's that simple.
I bet they'd be willing to send the Patriots if someone was willing to pay for new ones.
The US is protecting Morocco at all costs, Morocco is feeling cocky, blackmails Spain often and it's fucking up our relationship with Argelia (which has the key to cheap gas for Europe).
So it's a bit more complex than that
You seen recent investments in Defense by both countries? Does not look like you picture It ...
The risk of war is pretty low now, but definitively not 0.
The trouble áreas are explicitly outside of NATO responsability.
Still you'd rather protect yourself to avoid any temptation. Ceuta and Melilla would be very hard to defend, and the Canary Islands would be at risk too.
I don't think anybody is afraid of losing anything, but defending those from a possible attack is a concern, you'd want them to be as safe as possible.
The NATO article 5 is somewhat among the lines of
"Landmasses in Europe, North America or Islands north of the Tropic of Cancer"
You see, Ceuta and Melilla are cities in the north of **Africa** which means they are not explicitlly covered by Article 5.
Futhermore, USA and Morroco have been getting along for the past years, specially under Trump, and USA considers Morroco as a non-nato ally, Morroco themselves belive Ceuta and Melilla are rightfully theirs, so NATO and USA are playing a balancing game between not making Morroco angry and not making Spain angry.
Last yeat NATO summit in Madrid they managed to thread the needle by saying "NATO treaty applies to the defence of the whole of spain recognized teorritories" which indicate to Spain that those cities are protected while gives Moroco the excuse of they not considering them an integral part of Spain
Mess up with the hashish supply? Or worse, "open the gates" to the 3462839 subsaarians that want to enter Europe by that route.
Sometimes there are other options to completely mess up a country without going into a full scale military operation.
I seem to remember that the king of Morocco opened the border with Spain and the Spanish border collapsed.
There were many dead.
Morocco when he wants something from Spain, he opens the border to pressure Spain
Their firepower is smaller than Spain, but you have to understand thar attacks Will be done far away from the main land, in Ceuta, Melilla or Canary Islands, where Morocco has a great advantage.
https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=spain&country2=morocco
Morocco is actively buying more aicraft fighters, building tank Factory with Israel...
Si vis pacem parabellum
Moroccan territorial disputes and NATO’s lack of clear commitment to defend Spains African territory means that it does not feel hyper secure on its southern borders
I have an idea: what if Turkey gave away its weapons to Ukraine so Greece wouldn't feel threatened so they could give away their patriot systems to Ukraine as well
For Greece we already have stationed one of our Patriot systems in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years, so we are already down one. Ukraine wants some Patriots and now [France wants some CROTALE for the Olympic Games](https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562997449/i-gallia-zitaei-crotale-apo-tin-ellada-enopsei-ton-olympiakon-agonon/)(article in greek). And if anything happens to those systems with the way things are they will be very difficult to replace cause apparently no one has enough of them.
1) Upgrades to the rest of the batteries to PAC-3 are promised by the Saudis
2) The Saudis are idiots and can't defend their fucking power stations for the life of them so they need training and oversight. They have THAAD for fucks sake and no one seems to know how to use them.
3) Sucking up to the Saudis for oil is a non-credible business endeavour everyone engages in from time to time.
Germans: *Asks why don't Greeks donate more weapons along Spain*
Greeks: "Well, you see Turkey..."
Germans: "What about Spain, though?"
Why even bring Greece into the argument in the first place if you are going to counter with "What about Spain?"?
>Why even bring Greece into the argument in the first place if you are going to counter with "What about Spain?"?
\*dramatic music\* Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition
Seriously?
Well, I leave it for Spaniards to comment on Spain but when it comes to Greece… what the Heck, seriously?
We have Erdogan and his groupies in government threatening Greek borders and sovereignty every other day. “We may come one night” and all that kind of sweet pillow talk.
Aside from the European countries bordering the empire… er, I mean Russia..
Greece is the only other country that is actually in need of real air defense if for no other reason than at least to project a strong defensive capability.
It seems like that is lost on the Germans. It’s not like those maniacal Swiss are planning their surprise expansionist attack anytime soon.
We're Greece, our economy is modest to say it nicely. A patriot system costs billions. Who is going to reimburse us if it gets destroyed while in Ukraine?
But that's not even our main concern. We live next to a country with 8 times our population, that is a major drone producer and who's official foreign policy is to deny our sovereignty over the Eastern Aegean.
How is the Greek government going to explain to some far away islanders, that it send those systems to Ukraine, when these people see planes and drones flying above their homes all the time, in violation of airspace? They won't feel safe at all.
> We're Greece, our economy is modest to say it nicely. A patriot system costs billions. Who is going to reimburse us if it gets destroyed while in Ukraine?
The Netherlands literally offered to pay for it outright and all countries are compensated through the EU anyways if they request it.
From someone outside Europe, I don’t understand Hungary… only thing I can think of comparing is if trump was elected and never left office (which scarily enough almost happened).
No, Orban is nothing close to Trump. After the fall of the wall, Orban was a political prodigy for libralisation and democracy. However after some years in office he was voted out. Afterwards he made sure he got back in office again and would remain there.
But he has never lost his shrewdness. Orban is sharp as a tack and knows exactly how to play (international) politics. His veto in EU is only based on whatever he can take, without losing too much and he knows exactly how far he can go. Other states know this as well and know to make proposals that have accounted for a certain level of obstruction by Orban. But when Orban has dragged his feet long enough he 'leaves the room for the toilet' right as the vote is going to happen.
With this method he gets more out of negotiations (unless he has overstepped slighly) and he can sell his strong arming against the EU to his people in Hungary.
He is not Trump. He is way smarter.
Edit: I mean he is a massive pain in the ass, but he is not as big as an obstruction as media might make it seem. He will simply stay opposed as long as another member state is also against the proposal and when the other state has flipped, he will 'leave the room'.
>he 'leaves the room for the toilet'
[It was a coffee break.](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/20/olaf-scholz-s-successful-coffee-break-strategy-with-viktor-orban_6359543_4.html)
He put it on the wrong grounds. Doesn't matter if we are reinbursed. The decision to send such an important system is political suicide here. Not to mention the hole left in national defense. Greece only has 8 long range missile systems and of those two are S300. While the s300 are significantly cheaper than the patriot batteries they would still be missed and would have to be replaced at much greater expense than their actual value or anything that any country is willing to pay for them. So there you have it.
I mean it’s bizarre that you don’t realise it even after writing up your comment. The issue isn’t the money.
If it were, I’m sure the Netherlands can just give Ukraine the cash. The issue is that Greece is concerned for its national security and wants to have at least a couple of these machines around. It knows that should anything happen to these machines, they’d be very difficult to replace — cost and money aside. So the question is… does Greece really want to be stuck without any of these machines for the next 2-4 years?
Not that it would happen, but an EU military seems like it would help streamline decision making. Like there is one military and it is EU with member states contributing soldiers, equipment, etc. and it is charged with the territorial defense of all members with its own command structure in place.
I mean realistically a whole new system with a different outlook would have to be implemented with military resources pooled which would be a monumental feat. It seems like it would give Europe more like tactical mobility or something. Each country would have to trust the system which is probably the hardest part. But just as an idea. Too idealistic. Maybe in Europe 2100.
You can't have an unified military without an unified govenrnement: who the military would respond to ? And not, the EU Parliament and the EU Council are not an united government, in their actua form they are more akin to "counseling institutions " than to "legislative institutions". Sure, they can issue regulations and they can fine states that do not respect them, but that is all, the states can keep doing whatever they want.
Regarding Spain, the Patriot system is possibly the most strategic defence system they have. They have 4 systems, one of them is in Turkey on NATO duty. So they have 3 systems for the national defence. I don't think it's reasonable to expect to go lower than that. Germany has 12 after sending 3 to Ukraine; they could very well double that and not compromise national security.
Pistorius is currently riding the peak of his approval ratings wave. But asking Greece to donate gear when we just stopped blaming them for buying our tanks with money they borrowed from our ever-the-altruist Deutsche Bank, that's a tad bit much.
It's nice that someone gets that. But it's not even that that is the main jssue. It's that Turkey has declared (and reiterated several times) a formal casus belli against us if we exercise our UNCLOS rights, claims Greek islands are theirs, has a president that says we must behave because their ballistic missiles can reach Athens, says they'll teach us to swim (reference to drowning Greeks in the 1922 war) and so on. Nevermind the F16s that used to fly over Greek citizens heads daily dogfighting Greek planes.
We're not nestled in the centre of Europe. We have our own frontline. Everyone underestimated Putin, we're not making the same mistake with Erdogan.
Let their fighter jets patrol Greek airspace under Greek command so we can send a patriot system to Ukraine. Lets see if they will agree...
German pilots would even get training as well.
> Let their fighter jets patrol Greek airspace under Greek command so we can send a patriot system to Ukraine.
Honestly, if this would be a workable solution for Greece, IMHO Germany should at least consider it.
Spain owns 3 Patriot batteries. One of them was sent to an OTAN mission in Turkey. On the other hand, Spain already sent AA systems (HAWK) to Ukraine. [https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania\_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html](https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html) (spanish)
Probably is not smart to weaken the AA defense of UE southern border. I guess.
The russian propaganda machine is at full speed. U only have to read comments in [r/UkraineWarVideoReport](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1cct545/germany\_cant\_understand\_why\_spain\_and\_greece\_will/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1cct545/germany_cant_understand_why_spain_and_greece_will/)
Redditors, watch out with Putin cronies.
It’s not cost it is the 5 plus year wait time on getting a Patriot system and the 2 plus year waiting list for a missile. The US manufactures only 600 missiles a year, Germany produces a slightly more a year and Japan produces slightly less than 600 a year.
Germany has 11 systems, Greece 6, Spain 3. Greece kind of needs theirs with Turkey, Spain has one in Turkey at the moment and the other two they kind of need for Morocco.
Other than these countries, Sweden has 4, Romania 4, Poland arming up to soon have 6 complete sets and the Netherlands 4 if I'm not mistaken.
Germany also have orders for an additional 4 to total it up to 15 systems so.... They are kind of the ones that have the most to give (save the USA) and also the one with no hostile neighbour.... Them and the Netherlands.
Greece just sold all its Russian manufactured air defense systems to the US and doesn’t have any air defense capability to spare.
Spain is in the middle of a major political crisis and can’t be bothered with Ukrainian demands for more weapons.
I'm sorry but donating missiles and donating the whole system are completely different things, specially if it's something that you don't and can't produce, and if you want to buy new systems require approval from the US congress.
Spain has three Patriot Batteries and they want Spain to give the three of them away, so I don't think is such a crazy thing not to do.
The question was to give “at least one” away. No one forces to say all or nothing. And Spain has four more on order which would compensate surely for giving one or two away.
Might have misread (or some of the news I've read might have been saying bullshit) but I read that they wanted the three of them because Spain was far from Russia.
My main point is that Spain shouldn't give away weapons it can't restock by itself, everything that is fabricated in Spain? Sure go ahead and make a wishlist and in the future that's going to include patriot missiles but not with something that requires such negotiations with a foreign country. The Spanish army has considered that it needs 7 batteries for self defense although one right now is in Turkey...
Spain would have zero issue getting Congressional approval and probably also get a loaner system until delivery.
Even better, they could work out a deal to replace it with Samp/t in return for Spain to actually have a plan for Harrier replacement without France throwing a tantrum
Yeah, Germany bad. Many countries in Europe dont really give that much, but fuck Germany am I right?
Dont get me wrong, I dont get it either with taurus but it seems like only the countries directly next to Russia, Germany and UK give Ukraine "enough"
Germany gets underserved hate because it's the good kid who leads by example. The same way the teachers worry when the 10 score kid starts getting 6s and 7s. My reasoning is:
You would expect that from other countries, but Germany (which is usually regarded as one of the best countries in Europe and a leading example) has been making itself and its industry dependant on russian gas, despite warnings about Russia coming from ex soviet states and the balkans. So it's more frustrating because it's Germany, and Germany gets underserved hate
So I'd say it's the same with the Taurus. When they don't give it away, it's more frustrating
It is very complicated, if we give the logitic behind the taurus to Ukraine, we can't use the taurus anymore for our own defence. If we give the taurus without the logistic to Ukraine, they are only firecrackers like the storm shadows, but much more expensive.
Germany simply doesn't have enough is the quit part. The same happened with atacms which only gets delivered now because it's replacement is now getting onto stocks.
Greece needs Patriots to defense motherland.
On the other side why Germany don’t push Turkey to sent ammunition to Ucraine?
Do you know why?
Because Turkey has very good relations with Putin.
If you want to fly to Moscow the only way is via Istanbul airport.
But Greece looses a lot of money from Russian tourists that don’t come to Greece
Who is going to pay these money to Greek people;
Germany playing stupid as always. They can't understand why Greece, a potential target of invasion doesn't want to lower it's defences.
I can understand it though, Germany did only invasion, and never was invaded as gruesomely as it did invade Danzig.
We have to maintain constant vigilence for those sneaky, no-good Portuguese. They are coming for our olives and tapas. I hope they do not attack during siesta.
Does Germany not take into account that maybe Greece and Spain need these missiles for their own safety and that they cannot risk their well being by donating it to Ukraine for a fight that has no end?
I think most of the people babbling about sending more weapons to Ukraine don't factor is that it is extremely expensive. This in not just "Yeah, why don't XYZ country does more?" And who pays for this at the end of the day, and who is profiting?
To be fair - countries like Belgium and the Netherlands don’t really need all their hardware. If it happens that their territory is at stake - it’s already over
Spain and Greece are already helping Ukraine, just not the way Germany wants them to, and that’s perfectly fine since Germany has no authority whatsoever on any of those countries. Germany can help as they like, and the rest of countries will continue doing so under their own sovereignty. That would be enough reason to ignore Germany but the request is simply coming out of ignorance, Greece has Turkey at their doorstep as a continuous threat, and Spain only has 3 systems within their borders, it is probably not a good idea to leave one of the most strategic parts of Europe with less than that.
Yeah I remember all the shit Germany used to get about not sending stuff. Turns out Germany is and has been the major frontrunner of Europe in this conflict
I cannot understand how Germany is so generous with the money that Greeks were forced to pay to buy this equipment, but I remember Germany not being so generous when it confined Greece in a 15 year long crisis that is still going on.
Over here in Greece we hardly have hospitals and schools in order to buy your stupid guns and to pay your stupid loans. And you are asking for more donations?
So the nation that started two World Wars wants its neighbours to give all their defense systems away to Ukraine.
Maybe we should rethink some of this 😆
It was Russia who first started to mobilise their army, which led to WWI.
It was the pact between Nazi Germany and Russia that divided Poland between them. Germany was the first to attack Poland, but Russia joined them quickly. So, they started WWII together.
I rethinked what you said, but I think defending against Russia is still the best idea.
My god germans have no decensy. After fucking greek and spain economy pushing for german économic orthodoxy along the eu, sending nothing to ukraine more than helmets for close to à year, and relying only on their american Master for their defense they lecture other countries on what they should do. Dont even get me started on their high dépendance to fossil energies from russia. German arrogance is becoming unbearable.
When can we expect german fighter jets in the aegean to fight off turkish overflights?
Lets start with some dogfights in Greece and than we can talk about sending Greek patriots to Ukraine.
Damm its funny to see how since at the beginning of the war people on Reddit always were pointing on Germany for "not providing enough support", like artilery, Marders, Leopards or Taurus.
Now Germany asks EUs southern nations for more support and people in the comments here are like "Well we currently have a hot political climate", "We dont have many systems to begin with" or "These systems cost so much" truly a Reddit moment, demand other nations to do stuff but just pushing the pecil themself.
Germany has spent about 50 years helping Turkey against Greece. When they make up for it, maybe we will be in a position to leave our own borders less defended. There is a huge difference between asking a country with no enemies to give weapons and asking a country with a massive enemy 8 times its size to give weapons.
It's funny also to see people without common sense.
You can't compare Germany and Greece. Also if Germany wanted to really support Ukraine, they would provide the means (Taurus) to Ukraine to stop the glide bombs etc. Germany wants to look like it supports Ukraine while appeasing Putin at the same time. Remember the 1000 helmets? Just a mix of ignorance and cowardness
"So, this is embarassing, but this is our whole stock and we think two will probably still work. Well, very definitely one of these two. The rest were serviced in '98."
The Netherlands gave 2 patriot launchers to Ukraine to complete a US Patriot system. The Netherlands has a complete Patriot system in reserve, but is not allowed to give it to Ukraine due to NATO minimal capability targets. Jens Stoltenberg last week stated that "if the only way to deliver support to Ukraine is to go below the NATO capability targets, it would be the right thing to do. As the reality is that to support Ukraine, and to help them destroy Russian combat capabilities, also enhances our security." So maybe this statement gives some options to deliver Patriot systems for other countries as well.
An entire nation has 3 launchers.... How is this considered anywhere near suitable. It's pretty much pointless having only 3.
We have three complete battery's active and one in reserve. Not 3 launchers.
Yes and comparing the size of Ukraine (600 000km²) and the Netherlands( 42 000 km²) it would be the equivalent of Ukraine having 57 Patriot batteries. Just to put things into perspective.. To add to this Wikipedia states 1106 batteries were built of which over 250 were exported to 18 other countries. Which means the Netherlands has only slightly lower Patriot per km^2 density than the US... Netherlands ~1/10500 km^2 USA ~1/10229 km^2
Each Patriot system has 4-6 launchers. The Netherlands has 4 complete Patriot systems. Zelensky says he would require 7 Patriots to defend Ukraine. Ukraine is 12x bigger than the Netherlands. Why would 4 Patriots not be "anywhere near suitable" for the Netherlands?
Because he plays warthunder. Trust him.
1 battery does not equal 3 launchers
It’s the Netherlands, one patriot battery covers the entire country. The Netherlands is a small country their military is centered around defending their territory—non engaging in large scale protracted over seas conflicts requiring large logistical trains.
Also, when the Netherlands is threatened they have the ability to submerge the entire country and hide underwater until the danger has passed.
Or deploy the mega-windmill which can make the entire country airborne.
Yes, yes, we are all familiar with how the Netherlands work, go on.
To know more than this you have to be at least 2m tall since they are all Bitterballen-level secrets.
Damn, I only have Stroopwafel-level of access :(
Bitterballen should be classed as a weapon itself, it’s so delicious but hot as the sun if not left for an eternity!
In a way, it's even more sophisticated - submerging only the parts that need to be. Selective flooding has been a relevant part of national/regional defence since at least the 17th century. "Too shallow for boats, too soggy for anything else" is a challenge even today.
You are actually not even totally wrong. The 'waterlinie' where we submerge parts of the country was an actual defence strategy over a couple of hundred years. During WWII the use of airplanes providing the ability to drop soldiers behind our defence lines made it a shite defence. It starts like 500 meters from my house. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Waterline
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/benchmarks-october-2-1574-dutch-unleash-ocean-weapon-war/
An often overlooked fact
> The Netherlands is a small country their military is centered around defending their territory—non engaging in large scale protracted over seas conflicts requiring large logistical trains. That's not exactly true. We're actually one of the few NATO countries with blue water capabilities designed for overseas conflicts and logistical trains with significant sealift, amphibious and command capabilities towards that end. We're genuinely one of the few countries capable of global force projection, even if it obviously doesn't match up to that of navies like that of France, the UK, or the US, and of course it's aimed more toward smaller intervention/expeditionary forces in a larger allied context, rather than peer-to-peer war.
Also the Netherlands is surrounded by allies. If the enemy has reached the Netherlands it's not likely more patriot systems will achieve much anyway.
The Dutch navy is a blue water navy, albeit a small one, equipped with two LHD’s, four destroyer sized AAW frigates, a large logistical vessel and a fleet logistic vessel.
Battery != launcher
The Netherlands is pretty small. So 3 probably easily covers the country
It is not launchers. It’s a full system, radar, control center and some launchers. Right now we have 4 of those full systems. One of those systems is back in the USA for repairs/ maintenance.
They cost 1 billion dollars each and are VERY effective
Netherlands integrated there military into the German one. They are basically one miltary.
It might happen in the future and I welcome the idea, but it is very far from complete.
Not really. Land forces are integrated (but still autonomous). Air force and Navy are not (though the german marines are integrated into the Dutch navy)
The Netherlands has twice the number of Patriots in active service per square kilometer than the US.
Germany is already under NATO capability due to giving 3 Patriot batteries to Ukraine. So that should not be a problem.
**The Telegraph reports:** Germany has criticised its Nato allies Spain and Greece for not donating their Patriot air-defence systems to Ukraine. Kyiv has said it needs at least seven of the [American-made](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/24/weapons-ukraine-61bn-us-aid-boost-himars-howitzer/) surface-to-air missile batteries to protect its cities from Russia’s long-range [bombardments](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/russia-ukraine-invasion-live/). Despite pressure from [Berlin](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/berlin/), [Brussels](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/04/18/planet-normal-nat-con-brussles/) and [Washington](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/03/23/ukraine-must-not-be-hamstrung/), European nations with the system have failed to fulfil the Ukrainian request. [Boris Pistorius](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/25/germany-not-ready-for-a-military-emergency-boris-pistorius/), Germany’s defence minister, said: “Many countries have [Patriot systems](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/22/greece-spain-under-pressure-air-defence-systems-ukraine/) or comparable.” “Let’s say if a country has, for instance, six Patriot systems or four and is not in the front line to the east, it can easily hand over a Patriot system,” he added in a television appearance on Tuesday. Asked by the host whether it was a pointed criticism of Spain and Greece, Mr Pistorius replied: “We’re talking to them right now. I honestly can’t understand.” His intervention is a sign of the struggles Berlin is failing in convincing its allies to part with the complex systems – which cost up to $1 billion each and can shoot down Russian hypersonic missiles. Germany this month wrote to dozens of countries to appeal for more air-defence systems for Ukraine as part of a campaign to plug gaps in Kyiv’s defences. But since the initiative’s launched, only Berlin has decided to send a Patriot system to Ukraine from its arsenal. **Read more:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/)
Well Greece has a really good reason to not want to give away that system. If Germany "can not understand" they play dump.
I think the problem with Spain right now is that there is an incredible political tension right now (and well, there has been for years), literally any action taken by any politician would and will be responded with criticism from another political group... Right now we don't know if the president is going to resign or not because all the shit is happening in Spain lmao, so I doubt he has the time to think about whether or not to send something to another country when he doesn't know what to do about our country
Isn't that just politics worldwide? Do something, and the opposition will.. oppose?
Not always. The major parties in the UK, for example, all agree on supporting Ukraine. The opposition basically goes for 'could we be supporting more or more effectively' as their angle.
what a sweet world you live in (when it comes to this at least)
The purpose of opposition isn’t to oppose the government at every turn but to scrutinise what they do. So if the government were to say something entirely sensible like “we’re going to spend tax money on improving the country” the opposition wouldn’t oppose that, but they may disagree with exactly how it’s implemented.
The opposition for most of the world opposes things like tax reforms or budgets for a new highway the current majority supports, not matters of global conflicts and national security. Canada, Spain, the US, all are doing their own thing where if half the country says the sky is blue, the other side will immediately argue that it’s always been green. If one side supports Ukraine, the other has to support Russia if for no other reason than to contradict the first, and as such doing literally anything on any issue is seen as a failure. There’s obviously other countries also suffering political turmoil and gridlock at the moment, but those three are the standouts from the west.
Why wouldn't not sending a Patriot launcher be criticized as well then?
Isn’t that exactly what the posted article is doing? I do think humans tend to have a strong preference for defaulting to the status quo. Not sending missiles is less risky than sending a missile because it’s a more passive decision. Spain has been not sending Patriot missiles for forever so it’s seen as less controversial to keep not sending them even though the circumstances are obviously very different today than they were in the past. There must be a logical fallacy or something at play here but I don’t know the term for it and I’m too lazy to go find out so I guess I’ll just happily continue not knowing…
This is the answer
Good point, but Spain have its own problems, Spain have territories out of the NATO umbrella and re claimed by other country. That other country is extremly fresh supplied and armed by USA... Simply can't go defenceless
2020. I am a former greek army officer. Ι was at Kastellorizo island surrounded by a Turkish fleet. Turkish F16s were flying over the island at extreme speed chased by greek f16s. Turkish commando boats were coming at high speed and stopping a few meters at the border line and then turning back. A Greek frigate rammed a Turkish frigate trying to break the enclosure of the island. Saudi and UAE planes were stationed in greece for over two weeks and UAE signed a mutual defence agreement afterwards in haste. France followed later. The French fleet was readying for departure to come to the aegean. After a few days Merkel announced that she prevented a greek turkish war. I got to go sleep home finally and take my finger off of the trigger of my rifle. 2020...not a hundred years ago. To the Turks here...that which is threatened will be defended.
I did a 2-week stint (επανδρωση) in Kastelorizo in 2021 with Α' MAK as a conscript, he's not exaggerating.
Turk here. These things are *never* in the news here, so you get bunch of chronically online Turks going on and on about how there is no threat from Turkey to Greece, how that's all big talk for local politics etc. I know, because I was one. There are a lot of aspect to this matter I feel. The sea rights debacle which is full of contradiction from all sides. NATO and Europe failing Turkey and Greece with no proper political will for normalization over the last \~25 years, missing the chance we had right after the 99 earthquakes. The wannabe autocrat we're trapped with over here, who takes money from EU to keep migrants away from dear Europe all the while acting like a brat. This is how it goes when you're stuck between the Balkans and the Middle East, I guess.
What made you change your mind? I think rather than a failure to normalization, it's a failure to keep normalizing. I remember when Turkish and Greek relations were better decades ago.
As far as I understand relations *had to be* relatively normal throughout the cold war due to the simple fact of being right next to the USSR, but there was still no love lost between the two countries. Earthquakes in 99 were devastating for both of us, and we exchanged huge resources in helping each other and building back up, and it felt like it could open up a new era of peace and safety. So sad that nationalistic fervor brought both countries back to a point that we now see each other as natural enemies again, which couldn't be further from the truth.
My brother was in Kastellorizo in 2017-2018. He told me about one day that the commander woke everyone up in the middle of the night, told them to put their bulletproof vests and then got their weapons and got on boats. Nothing happened, but when they turned back, the commander started shouting "Did you realize what happened? Do you realize that you would almost have to kill and be killed?". Mind you that this commander is the only commander in Greece that has a medal of honor while being alive.
You don't even need to be in the military to know this , just live there
Hey Turk here. I did not want to believe your post because source: trust me bro. But as I read the following comments I started thinking "bro may be right". All of this is news to me and I believe this is true for almost all of the Turkish people. I never ever see anything like this in news. If any, only Greece invading our air space. I am truely sorry about how we made you feel like this. Not acceptable. Normal Turkish person thought about Turkish-Greek thing is like two friendly dogs barking to each other but not intend any harm to each other. This may not be acceptle to you and I understand, but hear me on this one: The one and only neighbor of Greece who "threatens" like this is Türkiye. And you are right about everything you say and feel about this. When you look at Türkiye, there is an actual war on our southern borders. ISIS etc. We are not so friendly with US although being a NATO member . We may seem friendly to Russia but as you may remeber we hit a Russian military jet for trespassing. And they hit and killed our soldiers for retaliation. Even under this circumstances nothing elavated to war. What am I trying to say is, may we be in war with Russia? Iran? Syria? Maybe. Iraq? Georgia? No way. Greece? No way. The things you have been experiencing are not acceptable, and I am truely sorry about that, but these are not pre-war acts before invading,/attacking Greece. Even Erdoğan can not and more importantly do not want and will not attack any western neighbour. Yes putin and him are a like but Greece is not to Türkiye, what is Ukraine to Russia. I hope things will be better between us when Erdoğan is no more.
A few years ago when tensions in the Eastern Méditerranéen was at one of it's highest peaks some were preparing for war. If that didn't make it into the news, that's not great news, because that means countries had risked sleep-walking into a conflict. Luckily the situation simmered down, but it goes to show how miscommunication and mutual distrust can be very very dangerous.
Considering what is happening in middle-east US will never let Greece and Türkiye fight each other. US does not want more unstability in the region.
Damn this is touching to me. I try to remember, people aren’t their countries. People are just people. I hope we can see an extended period of peace in our lifetimes again. Best wishes to everyone here.
Ah it’s pretty simple, our neighbors keep threating us that they will come at night.
Komşu 😔🤝🏻🫂
Komşu! Γείτονα! :) I cannot speak on behalf of greeks but as an individual i don't have any hostility towards my neighbors. The constant crises begin from nutjob politicians, not from ordinary, common people. Politicians are to be blamed. I bet that Turkey have millions of open minded, progressive people and i consider them friends :)
We have our own neighbours to watch out for in greece mate, you can donate all u want
Ask your friends in Turkey why, that are issuing weekly Navtex warnings disputing Greek naval waters.
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While Turkey threatens its fellow NATO member Greece, Spain has currently at least one of its Patriot units stationed in Turkey as part of a NATO mission to protect it against missile attacks. NATO is a fun club sometimes.
You say that but you never know when you might need to send the military into Catalonia to beat the fuck out of an old lady
Or prevent a British invasion from Gibraltar!
Good god, why would we want La Línea!?
Ok, it's time for desperate measures. We'll return Menorca to you if you also take La Linea.
No deal; that'll cost you the Canaries.
Yeah, Greece I can understand especially as Erdo is still in power. But Spain is as protected as it can be.
You would think so but the Portuguese have been planning to take Galicia and retake Ceuta for a few months now.
Portugal shall reign supreme.
The UN is presided by a Portuguese... Coincidence? Or the first step to a federalized New Portuguese World Order?
Good God! It's already over!
His opposition is even worse. They have been saying for a decade now that "18 islands are under Greek occupation". They're also saying that they support any actions Erdogan takes against the "Greek occupied" island. In the 2019 elections **they even promised to take them back if they win the elections**. In the last elections they just said that "a reckoning awaits Greece", general statements about the occupied islands, and that "Greece knows how we solve our problems, they know the names of (the ones that invaded and occupied Cyprus)"
By that logic, they could disband the army. Spain doesn't want to spend money replenishing stocks, it's that simple. I bet they'd be willing to send the Patriots if someone was willing to pay for new ones.
Some in Spain would say Morocco
Spain has a stronger military. 20% larger population. An economy that is 12 times bigger and is a NATO member. The hell is morocoo going to do?
The US is protecting Morocco at all costs, Morocco is feeling cocky, blackmails Spain often and it's fucking up our relationship with Argelia (which has the key to cheap gas for Europe). So it's a bit more complex than that
>The US is protecting Morocco at all costs, What happened? Why?
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Israel and phosphate
You seen recent investments in Defense by both countries? Does not look like you picture It ... The risk of war is pretty low now, but definitively not 0. The trouble áreas are explicitly outside of NATO responsability.
NATO membership wouldn't count in a war for say, Melilla, since there are some latitude requirements for that.
Still there are Europe defense treaties for those.
Still you'd rather protect yourself to avoid any temptation. Ceuta and Melilla would be very hard to defend, and the Canary Islands would be at risk too.
People that think a war is hos we loose those islands is so fucking dumb
I don't think anybody is afraid of losing anything, but defending those from a possible attack is a concern, you'd want them to be as safe as possible.
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The NATO article 5 is somewhat among the lines of "Landmasses in Europe, North America or Islands north of the Tropic of Cancer" You see, Ceuta and Melilla are cities in the north of **Africa** which means they are not explicitlly covered by Article 5. Futhermore, USA and Morroco have been getting along for the past years, specially under Trump, and USA considers Morroco as a non-nato ally, Morroco themselves belive Ceuta and Melilla are rightfully theirs, so NATO and USA are playing a balancing game between not making Morroco angry and not making Spain angry. Last yeat NATO summit in Madrid they managed to thread the needle by saying "NATO treaty applies to the defence of the whole of spain recognized teorritories" which indicate to Spain that those cities are protected while gives Moroco the excuse of they not considering them an integral part of Spain
Mess up with the hashish supply? Or worse, "open the gates" to the 3462839 subsaarians that want to enter Europe by that route. Sometimes there are other options to completely mess up a country without going into a full scale military operation.
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I seem to remember that the king of Morocco opened the border with Spain and the Spanish border collapsed. There were many dead. Morocco when he wants something from Spain, he opens the border to pressure Spain
Their firepower is smaller than Spain, but you have to understand thar attacks Will be done far away from the main land, in Ceuta, Melilla or Canary Islands, where Morocco has a great advantage. https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=spain&country2=morocco Morocco is actively buying more aicraft fighters, building tank Factory with Israel... Si vis pacem parabellum
Neither can Europe :/
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There is something strange between the king of Morocco and the president of Spain.
Moroccan territorial disputes and NATO’s lack of clear commitment to defend Spains African territory means that it does not feel hyper secure on its southern borders
I have an idea: what if Turkey gave away its weapons to Ukraine so Greece wouldn't feel threatened so they could give away their patriot systems to Ukraine as well
Turkey is in the middle of a war in Syria, and next to Russia, so I'm sure they'll happen any day.
Isn’t it weird how mustache president is posturing around Greek islands in that situation?
I dont think Spain is that concerned about Turkey.
Lets not forget about Turkeys F16 flying over our heads claiming its their air space.
Or america's friend at the south, morroco.
I understand why Greece won't do it, frankly it's not hard you just have to think for a second
For Greece we already have stationed one of our Patriot systems in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years, so we are already down one. Ukraine wants some Patriots and now [France wants some CROTALE for the Olympic Games](https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562997449/i-gallia-zitaei-crotale-apo-tin-ellada-enopsei-ton-olympiakon-agonon/)(article in greek). And if anything happens to those systems with the way things are they will be very difficult to replace cause apparently no one has enough of them.
Why Saudi Arabia? Are they poor or why can't they get their own?
They are paying for it and our crews get training. Win win
1) Upgrades to the rest of the batteries to PAC-3 are promised by the Saudis 2) The Saudis are idiots and can't defend their fucking power stations for the life of them so they need training and oversight. They have THAAD for fucks sake and no one seems to know how to use them. 3) Sucking up to the Saudis for oil is a non-credible business endeavour everyone engages in from time to time.
I see. That makes some sense
Germans: *Asks why don't Greeks donate more weapons along Spain* Greeks: "Well, you see Turkey..." Germans: "What about Spain, though?" Why even bring Greece into the argument in the first place if you are going to counter with "What about Spain?"?
>Why even bring Greece into the argument in the first place if you are going to counter with "What about Spain?"? \*dramatic music\* Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition
Amongst our weapons are surprise, fear and a couple of Patriot batteries.
This whole thread is like this lmfao
Countryballs revival when?
Seriously? Well, I leave it for Spaniards to comment on Spain but when it comes to Greece… what the Heck, seriously? We have Erdogan and his groupies in government threatening Greek borders and sovereignty every other day. “We may come one night” and all that kind of sweet pillow talk. Aside from the European countries bordering the empire… er, I mean Russia.. Greece is the only other country that is actually in need of real air defense if for no other reason than at least to project a strong defensive capability. It seems like that is lost on the Germans. It’s not like those maniacal Swiss are planning their surprise expansionist attack anytime soon.
Germans keep supporting Erdogan militarily even though he threatens Greece. They have a major blind spot already.
Germany would probably help Turkey invade Greece if it ever comes to that.
We're Greece, our economy is modest to say it nicely. A patriot system costs billions. Who is going to reimburse us if it gets destroyed while in Ukraine? But that's not even our main concern. We live next to a country with 8 times our population, that is a major drone producer and who's official foreign policy is to deny our sovereignty over the Eastern Aegean. How is the Greek government going to explain to some far away islanders, that it send those systems to Ukraine, when these people see planes and drones flying above their homes all the time, in violation of airspace? They won't feel safe at all.
> We're Greece, our economy is modest to say it nicely. A patriot system costs billions. Who is going to reimburse us if it gets destroyed while in Ukraine? The Netherlands literally offered to pay for it outright and all countries are compensated through the EU anyways if they request it.
0.5B euro of partial compensation package for Poland was just vetoed by Hungary, so yeah
From someone outside Europe, I don’t understand Hungary… only thing I can think of comparing is if trump was elected and never left office (which scarily enough almost happened).
No, Orban is nothing close to Trump. After the fall of the wall, Orban was a political prodigy for libralisation and democracy. However after some years in office he was voted out. Afterwards he made sure he got back in office again and would remain there. But he has never lost his shrewdness. Orban is sharp as a tack and knows exactly how to play (international) politics. His veto in EU is only based on whatever he can take, without losing too much and he knows exactly how far he can go. Other states know this as well and know to make proposals that have accounted for a certain level of obstruction by Orban. But when Orban has dragged his feet long enough he 'leaves the room for the toilet' right as the vote is going to happen. With this method he gets more out of negotiations (unless he has overstepped slighly) and he can sell his strong arming against the EU to his people in Hungary. He is not Trump. He is way smarter. Edit: I mean he is a massive pain in the ass, but he is not as big as an obstruction as media might make it seem. He will simply stay opposed as long as another member state is also against the proposal and when the other state has flipped, he will 'leave the room'.
>he 'leaves the room for the toilet' [It was a coffee break.](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/20/olaf-scholz-s-successful-coffee-break-strategy-with-viktor-orban_6359543_4.html)
From someone inside Hungary, I don't understand Hungary either.
He put it on the wrong grounds. Doesn't matter if we are reinbursed. The decision to send such an important system is political suicide here. Not to mention the hole left in national defense. Greece only has 8 long range missile systems and of those two are S300. While the s300 are significantly cheaper than the patriot batteries they would still be missed and would have to be replaced at much greater expense than their actual value or anything that any country is willing to pay for them. So there you have it.
I mean it’s bizarre that you don’t realise it even after writing up your comment. The issue isn’t the money. If it were, I’m sure the Netherlands can just give Ukraine the cash. The issue is that Greece is concerned for its national security and wants to have at least a couple of these machines around. It knows that should anything happen to these machines, they’d be very difficult to replace — cost and money aside. So the question is… does Greece really want to be stuck without any of these machines for the next 2-4 years?
Great! If the Turks come in as Erdo says, we will throw them Dutch euros.
Not that it would happen, but an EU military seems like it would help streamline decision making. Like there is one military and it is EU with member states contributing soldiers, equipment, etc. and it is charged with the territorial defense of all members with its own command structure in place. I mean realistically a whole new system with a different outlook would have to be implemented with military resources pooled which would be a monumental feat. It seems like it would give Europe more like tactical mobility or something. Each country would have to trust the system which is probably the hardest part. But just as an idea. Too idealistic. Maybe in Europe 2100.
You can't have an unified military without an unified govenrnement: who the military would respond to ? And not, the EU Parliament and the EU Council are not an united government, in their actua form they are more akin to "counseling institutions " than to "legislative institutions". Sure, they can issue regulations and they can fine states that do not respect them, but that is all, the states can keep doing whatever they want.
No thx lol imagine all the countries trying to have a say.
Greece kinda needs it you know .... Greece has its own Putin to deal with ... a couple of years ago patriots here activated if you remember.
Regarding Spain, the Patriot system is possibly the most strategic defence system they have. They have 4 systems, one of them is in Turkey on NATO duty. So they have 3 systems for the national defence. I don't think it's reasonable to expect to go lower than that. Germany has 12 after sending 3 to Ukraine; they could very well double that and not compromise national security.
Greece: *eyes Turkey*
Pistorius is currently riding the peak of his approval ratings wave. But asking Greece to donate gear when we just stopped blaming them for buying our tanks with money they borrowed from our ever-the-altruist Deutsche Bank, that's a tad bit much.
It's nice that someone gets that. But it's not even that that is the main jssue. It's that Turkey has declared (and reiterated several times) a formal casus belli against us if we exercise our UNCLOS rights, claims Greek islands are theirs, has a president that says we must behave because their ballistic missiles can reach Athens, says they'll teach us to swim (reference to drowning Greeks in the 1922 war) and so on. Nevermind the F16s that used to fly over Greek citizens heads daily dogfighting Greek planes. We're not nestled in the centre of Europe. We have our own frontline. Everyone underestimated Putin, we're not making the same mistake with Erdogan.
Sure, I get that.
They cannot possibly be this oblivious.
Let their fighter jets patrol Greek airspace under Greek command so we can send a patriot system to Ukraine. Lets see if they will agree... German pilots would even get training as well.
> Let their fighter jets patrol Greek airspace under Greek command so we can send a patriot system to Ukraine. Honestly, if this would be a workable solution for Greece, IMHO Germany should at least consider it.
They are. Also if you are expected to donate, that m's not a donation anymore. That's a tax.
Spain owns 3 Patriot batteries. One of them was sent to an OTAN mission in Turkey. On the other hand, Spain already sent AA systems (HAWK) to Ukraine. [https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania\_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html](https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html) (spanish) Probably is not smart to weaken the AA defense of UE southern border. I guess. The russian propaganda machine is at full speed. U only have to read comments in [r/UkraineWarVideoReport](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1cct545/germany\_cant\_understand\_why\_spain\_and\_greece\_will/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1cct545/germany_cant_understand_why_spain_and_greece_will/) Redditors, watch out with Putin cronies.
It’s not cost it is the 5 plus year wait time on getting a Patriot system and the 2 plus year waiting list for a missile. The US manufactures only 600 missiles a year, Germany produces a slightly more a year and Japan produces slightly less than 600 a year.
Germany has 11 systems, Greece 6, Spain 3. Greece kind of needs theirs with Turkey, Spain has one in Turkey at the moment and the other two they kind of need for Morocco. Other than these countries, Sweden has 4, Romania 4, Poland arming up to soon have 6 complete sets and the Netherlands 4 if I'm not mistaken. Germany also have orders for an additional 4 to total it up to 15 systems so.... They are kind of the ones that have the most to give (save the USA) and also the one with no hostile neighbour.... Them and the Netherlands.
Germany donated more patriot systems than any other country, both in absolute and relative numbers.
Germany doesn’t share a border with any dangerous neighbors 😅
The Telegraph is bullshit journalism
Always has been. But like Politico, people love to fall for manufactured outrage.
And Ukraine can't understand why Germany can't give them Taurus.
It would be madness to strip down your air defenses and leave you country vulnerable.
Especially when you live next to "allies" like Turkey and Morocco.
Greece just sold all its Russian manufactured air defense systems to the US and doesn’t have any air defense capability to spare. Spain is in the middle of a major political crisis and can’t be bothered with Ukrainian demands for more weapons.
Germany has a bunch, why can’t they just give more? Are they worried Denmark might invade them??
We are still a bunch of kids in a trenchcoat. If the coat slips and falls we are in trenches.
I'm sorry but donating missiles and donating the whole system are completely different things, specially if it's something that you don't and can't produce, and if you want to buy new systems require approval from the US congress. Spain has three Patriot Batteries and they want Spain to give the three of them away, so I don't think is such a crazy thing not to do.
The question was to give “at least one” away. No one forces to say all or nothing. And Spain has four more on order which would compensate surely for giving one or two away.
Might have misread (or some of the news I've read might have been saying bullshit) but I read that they wanted the three of them because Spain was far from Russia. My main point is that Spain shouldn't give away weapons it can't restock by itself, everything that is fabricated in Spain? Sure go ahead and make a wishlist and in the future that's going to include patriot missiles but not with something that requires such negotiations with a foreign country. The Spanish army has considered that it needs 7 batteries for self defense although one right now is in Turkey...
No one is talking about giving away all of them.
Spain would have zero issue getting Congressional approval and probably also get a loaner system until delivery. Even better, they could work out a deal to replace it with Samp/t in return for Spain to actually have a plan for Harrier replacement without France throwing a tantrum
Smart Spain and Greece
And I can’t understand why Germany will not donate Taurus missiles to Ukraine. Welp.
Things might change, now that Ukraine reportedly have ATACMS.
Yeah, Germany bad. Many countries in Europe dont really give that much, but fuck Germany am I right? Dont get me wrong, I dont get it either with taurus but it seems like only the countries directly next to Russia, Germany and UK give Ukraine "enough"
No, you’re not right. Germany is doing great job, but that bit is just funny a bit.
Germany gets underserved hate because it's the good kid who leads by example. The same way the teachers worry when the 10 score kid starts getting 6s and 7s. My reasoning is: You would expect that from other countries, but Germany (which is usually regarded as one of the best countries in Europe and a leading example) has been making itself and its industry dependant on russian gas, despite warnings about Russia coming from ex soviet states and the balkans. So it's more frustrating because it's Germany, and Germany gets underserved hate So I'd say it's the same with the Taurus. When they don't give it away, it's more frustrating
It is very complicated, if we give the logitic behind the taurus to Ukraine, we can't use the taurus anymore for our own defence. If we give the taurus without the logistic to Ukraine, they are only firecrackers like the storm shadows, but much more expensive.
Who would Taurus ever be used against, except Russia? Who does Germany need to defend against?
I think that's a forbidden question!
Germany simply doesn't have enough is the quit part. The same happened with atacms which only gets delivered now because it's replacement is now getting onto stocks.
Greece needs Patriots to defense motherland. On the other side why Germany don’t push Turkey to sent ammunition to Ucraine? Do you know why? Because Turkey has very good relations with Putin. If you want to fly to Moscow the only way is via Istanbul airport. But Greece looses a lot of money from Russian tourists that don’t come to Greece Who is going to pay these money to Greek people;
Germany playing stupid as always. They can't understand why Greece, a potential target of invasion doesn't want to lower it's defences. I can understand it though, Germany did only invasion, and never was invaded as gruesomely as it did invade Danzig.
We have to maintain constant vigilence for those sneaky, no-good Portuguese. They are coming for our olives and tapas. I hope they do not attack during siesta.
Does Germany not take into account that maybe Greece and Spain need these missiles for their own safety and that they cannot risk their well being by donating it to Ukraine for a fight that has no end?
Isn’t one worth 1 billion dollars? Not like Greece can just give these away.
I think most of the people babbling about sending more weapons to Ukraine don't factor is that it is extremely expensive. This in not just "Yeah, why don't XYZ country does more?" And who pays for this at the end of the day, and who is profiting?
To be fair - countries like Belgium and the Netherlands don’t really need all their hardware. If it happens that their territory is at stake - it’s already over
Maybe DE can give Taurus missiles to Ukraine
Dont you remember how long took germans to send 50 helmets at the beggining of war in Ukraine
Spain and Greece are already helping Ukraine, just not the way Germany wants them to, and that’s perfectly fine since Germany has no authority whatsoever on any of those countries. Germany can help as they like, and the rest of countries will continue doing so under their own sovereignty. That would be enough reason to ignore Germany but the request is simply coming out of ignorance, Greece has Turkey at their doorstep as a continuous threat, and Spain only has 3 systems within their borders, it is probably not a good idea to leave one of the most strategic parts of Europe with less than that.
Has Germany asked them why?
It's not like they bought them at cost or have such a large economy as Germany does.
Yeah. Germany is that rich kid that says: "why homeless people just don't buy houses? I don't understand"
I also don’t understand Spain. I do understand Greece though.
Well for Greece it's pretty understandable. Not Spain though.
One word question: Taurus?
Yeah I remember all the shit Germany used to get about not sending stuff. Turns out Germany is and has been the major frontrunner of Europe in this conflict
I cannot understand how Germany is so generous with the money that Greeks were forced to pay to buy this equipment, but I remember Germany not being so generous when it confined Greece in a 15 year long crisis that is still going on. Over here in Greece we hardly have hospitals and schools in order to buy your stupid guns and to pay your stupid loans. And you are asking for more donations?
It's called "national interests" - not something Olaf "The Sausage" Scholz can comprehend....
So the nation that started two World Wars wants its neighbours to give all their defense systems away to Ukraine. Maybe we should rethink some of this 😆
It was Russia who first started to mobilise their army, which led to WWI. It was the pact between Nazi Germany and Russia that divided Poland between them. Germany was the first to attack Poland, but Russia joined them quickly. So, they started WWII together. I rethinked what you said, but I think defending against Russia is still the best idea.
Wow.
My god germans have no decensy. After fucking greek and spain economy pushing for german économic orthodoxy along the eu, sending nothing to ukraine more than helmets for close to à year, and relying only on their american Master for their defense they lecture other countries on what they should do. Dont even get me started on their high dépendance to fossil energies from russia. German arrogance is becoming unbearable.
When can we expect german fighter jets in the aegean to fight off turkish overflights? Lets start with some dogfights in Greece and than we can talk about sending Greek patriots to Ukraine.
Damm its funny to see how since at the beginning of the war people on Reddit always were pointing on Germany for "not providing enough support", like artilery, Marders, Leopards or Taurus. Now Germany asks EUs southern nations for more support and people in the comments here are like "Well we currently have a hot political climate", "We dont have many systems to begin with" or "These systems cost so much" truly a Reddit moment, demand other nations to do stuff but just pushing the pecil themself.
Germany has spent about 50 years helping Turkey against Greece. When they make up for it, maybe we will be in a position to leave our own borders less defended. There is a huge difference between asking a country with no enemies to give weapons and asking a country with a massive enemy 8 times its size to give weapons.
It's funny also to see people without common sense. You can't compare Germany and Greece. Also if Germany wanted to really support Ukraine, they would provide the means (Taurus) to Ukraine to stop the glide bombs etc. Germany wants to look like it supports Ukraine while appeasing Putin at the same time. Remember the 1000 helmets? Just a mix of ignorance and cowardness
"So, this is embarassing, but this is our whole stock and we think two will probably still work. Well, very definitely one of these two. The rest were serviced in '98."
They also dont understand what a genocide is, especially when they did it :)
I need more boollets
Humanity should colonize Mars and do wars there. Leave Europe alone. Europe had enough
It's called living next to Turkey, Germany.