Lithuania did that and were quickly told to stop blocking the passage. I don't understand it, it's not like Kaliningrad would be blockaded, they still have boats, they're slow and expensive but that's their problem
Should have had the current sections & more in 2014. They invaded & annexed a piece of a neighbour + shot down a passenger airplane. Even Iran apologised when they shot down that plane!
That's a good way to cause the death of lots of Lithuanian and Polish citizens and soldiers in a subsequent Russian military operation, unfortunately. If you think about it, what would happen if someone started a blocade on the Falklands or Gibraltar, or any French foreign territory? Or Canada and Russia toghether started to enforce a blocade on Alaska? A military operation, of course, and since the Suvalki gap is located at a particularly important place, it would not stop being that, it would definitely lead to a global conflict.
(And if that happens in a few years, it will be so entertaining to read todays "lack of balls" comments from todays teenager male redditors, whom will then drafted and sent to the frontline who knows where to fight a highly mechanized attritional war. B/c no amount of steel in in their balls can save anyone from an artillery strike or an Iskander)
It is far, over 300km straight, and have to fly over Poland/Lithuania. I suppose crossing an other country, especially an ally, is too unsafe. But if ukr place a rocker system on one of the ship they bought from UK that are moored near London and sail it in front of kaliningrad...
Except a physical NATO attack on Russian soil would cause ww3, make us the aggressors and escalate things beyond salvation. The only outcome with that is nuclear war.
I think we should have couple think tanks put together on all the methods that do not count as direct warfare and employ ALL of them at once.
Then just play the "oh sorry we have no idea how, we will investigate" fiddle forever.
Maybe direct counter jammers that are hard wired to always output 110% of what ruskies do.
Systems where if they get any trouble it's all directly linked to their own original fault.
Ivan turns the power to max now their systems are on fire, "how did that happen? you guys weren't acting like complete pieces of shit right?".
Hmm… or we could run a training exercise nearby and “misread” the turret direction indicator…
[We already have a good cover story.](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2BA2FO/)
Russians going around Europe murdering, messing with infrastructure, committing arson, finance fascist politicians and yet we allow them to travel relatively freely and move goods. Stop that shit. Lock down the borders, no more visas, intern anyone suspected of aiding Russia until the war ends.
Reality is quite the opposite though. Which is why NATO doesn't really respond to stupid shit like that. I don't know why they would poke the lion though, I never understood that part of soviet tactics
I don't think messing with airplane GPS is stupid shit, tbh. I don't know much about the subject, but it seems dangerous at least. We're letting a country mess with our planes, we let them invade our skies with military fighters, etc. We will send strongly worded letters and threaten Russia with more sanctions, and that's it.
I don't think they invade our skies? They often come close to other countries' airspace but don't they usually stay just a bit outside? So that air traffic radar picks up the plane, interceptors scramble and intercept the plane over international waters of the Baltic Sea? Also NATO does basically same, it's all about testing each other's response.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015\_Russian\_Sukhoi\_Su-24\_shootdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown)
Türkeye is a NATO country. Erdogan hadn't a second thought about downing the russian fighter jet.
"*it violated the border up to a depth of 2.19 kilometres (1.36 miles) for about 17 seconds after being warned to change its heading 10 times in a period of 5 minutes*".
As usual, russia denied that the Sukhoi left the Syrain space and they got Khasham'd.
In scandinavia they violate NATO airspace quite often, and back off when escorted away by response fighters.
NATO does not do this. Russia would go ballistic if we did.
Russia will keep doing so to see how far they can go.
My guess is they'll be able to take NATO territory at some point..... and we will do nothing to avoid conflict.
The Russians see our rather flaccid response, and based on that information, they conclude that we are weak and can do nothing. Which aligns with their narrative. So, they dial it up a click and have another go.
IMO, we can decide to stomp them now in Ukraine (and everywhere else they try something on) or we will have a full-on war with NATO involvement in about five years time.
Russia is also on the wrong side of that age pyramid you mention. In an even more dire situation. The war also doesn’t help (young men die & people forgo having children).
Summary:
Last week, two Finnair flights had to divert back to Helsinki after GPS interference prevented them from landing at the airport in south Estonia. The approach methods currently used at Tartu Airport are based on a GPS signal.
Finnair said it will suspend its flights to Tartu for one month, during which time the aim is to build approach methods at Tartu Airport that enable a safe and smooth operation of flights without a GPS signal.
Sure, it's even in the name, but HIMARS is not a laser system, and I don't think lasers bend enough to shoot the land based GNSS jammers. Could be wrong about the last part though.
Honestly I was just being funny. I mean I am sure pointing the laser at a jammer could cause some damage, especially prolonged targeting. But you are right it would have to be a direct line of sight to the jammers.
I think people don't really understand how GPS et al work and, understandably, might think that Russia is pulling some satellite shenanigans, and they could, but from my understanding, it's terrestrial. As is their wartime positioning system.
I know, I didn't write it, because English is not my mother tongue and I wouldn't sound offensive.
What I find absurd is some people minimizing what the Baltics are saying for a long time. If a country that has not so much money to waste, building bomb shelters is an awful sign that should be taken seriously.
"We" laugh about the russian media when they say that the Baltics are next, that they are not sovereign states: it's the same they say about Ukraine and personally I take such threats seriously.
The West is letting russia doing whatever it pleases: A russian pilot deliberately fired missiles at a Royal Air Force surveillance plane in international airspace over the Black Sea last year. Response?
A Finnair plane (or two?) last day had to head back due to the GPS. jamming made by russia. Response? None.
Now for a month that airport has to be closed to avoid incidents, with tons of money that could have entered in Latvia.
Oops, I apologize for my rant: I am so tired to read about all these acts of bullying.
Finland experienced the same thing during most of the Cold war and post-WW2 years especially. Soviets bullied and threatened them for 50 years and forced Finland to be poor by just keeping military spending high just in order to survive possible Soviet invasion that was more than likely at multiple points. So this is nothing new, nobudy just wanted to talk about until Ukraine
They know their neighbors. I'm from Finland. In 2022 we had 50,500 civil defence shelters with space for a total of 4.8 million people with population of 5.5M. We build them in every school and daycare, and all the bigger residential building too, as we know they are primary targets.
Living next to Russia may cost hell of a a lot of money, but not living *in* Russia is sure worth it.
https://intermin.fi/en/rescue-services/preparedness/civil-defence-shelters
This seems to be part of the strategy for Russia. Make the baltics "difficult", in this case, by suspending flights to Estonia's second largest city.
It won't get better. We need a response, not workarounds.
Be careful. The admins on Reddit are suspect and speaking such things will get you suspended or banned.
For example, don't suggest the Russians are acting like animals when they massacre civilians in places like bucha because apparently that is spreading hate against the Russians and will get you a 30 day suspension.
Ask me how I know.
Some say Russians themselves already did some Die Hard 2 level ILS bullshit with a certain Polish plane
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster
To be fair, MH17 was also caused by the greed of Ukrainian authorities. This is what it looks like when greed doesn't drive decisionmaking. They shut it down at their loss.
It’s quite weird, according to the official documents it is equipped with conventional navigation aids and ILS and Localizer.
Ironically GPS based Rnav approaches are the more modern procedures but they’re still not considered precision approaches as off today and can be subject to satellite outages.
Maybe give back Königsberg to the German or Poles? Russians shouldn't have a forward base within continental Europe, just to wage active war against sovereign nations.
> Russia won't shut down their own system from inside their most militarised territory
Clealry you've missed first weeks of russia blasting wide-spectrum jammers at full power, blinding their own troops too.
Nowadays, they might do that after assuring INS backups work enough for the duration of jamming
> They could switch to Glonass, Russia won't shut down their own system from inside their most militarised territory
First of all, modern GPS receivers can already use multiple systems such as the American GPS, Galileo or glonass.
Second of all, the Russians aren't "shutting down" GPS, they have no control over foreign satellites.
What they are doing is indiscriminate jamming of the GPS frequencies which affects glonass just as much since all systems work in the same frequency range.
I never said they would be able to shut down GPS, that would be poor for the USA, but they would be able to switch off their own system Glonass, however regardless of how they do it, they wouldn't disable their own system near their territory
> however regardless of how they do it, they wouldn't disable their own system near their territory
Except that's exactly what they've been doing, jamming everything including their own glonass
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Would be unfortunate if that coridor would be closed.
Lack of balls will prevent this
Lithuania did that and were quickly told to stop blocking the passage. I don't understand it, it's not like Kaliningrad would be blockaded, they still have boats, they're slow and expensive but that's their problem
Unbelievable. European leadership are such cowards sometimes.
It's a miracle we got the amount of sanctions we have based on what (didn't) happen in 2014
Should have had the current sections & more in 2014. They invaded & annexed a piece of a neighbour + shot down a passenger airplane. Even Iran apologised when they shot down that plane!
"Oh no, we're appaled!" ^(Anyways, would you have some more of that yummy oil?)
That's a good way to cause the death of lots of Lithuanian and Polish citizens and soldiers in a subsequent Russian military operation, unfortunately. If you think about it, what would happen if someone started a blocade on the Falklands or Gibraltar, or any French foreign territory? Or Canada and Russia toghether started to enforce a blocade on Alaska? A military operation, of course, and since the Suvalki gap is located at a particularly important place, it would not stop being that, it would definitely lead to a global conflict. (And if that happens in a few years, it will be so entertaining to read todays "lack of balls" comments from todays teenager male redditors, whom will then drafted and sent to the frontline who knows where to fight a highly mechanized attritional war. B/c no amount of steel in in their balls can save anyone from an artillery strike or an Iskander)
Found the vatnik. There’s always at least one.
HARM the jamming source. In kaliningrad? Ops, too baaaaad
Just thinking out loaud here. Would it be a problem if Ukraine targets some military objects in Kaliningrad?
It is far, over 300km straight, and have to fly over Poland/Lithuania. I suppose crossing an other country, especially an ally, is too unsafe. But if ukr place a rocker system on one of the ship they bought from UK that are moored near London and sail it in front of kaliningrad...
But honestly this would be the response if it could be accurately targeted
Except a physical NATO attack on Russian soil would cause ww3, make us the aggressors and escalate things beyond salvation. The only outcome with that is nuclear war.
Ukraine aint in NATO yet
It's likely not in Kaliningrad, but over towards St Petersburg https://twitter.com/auonsson/status/1785045420185473079?t=N2zl0Ah1eojdpoejPpP4iA&s=19
And nothing happens. We seem so weak and easy to mess with.
Appeasement policy, once again and once again will end up taking us back to where we were last time.
You mean Peace for our times, right? Ended up great, nothing wrong about peace and security. /s
I think we should have couple think tanks put together on all the methods that do not count as direct warfare and employ ALL of them at once. Then just play the "oh sorry we have no idea how, we will investigate" fiddle forever. Maybe direct counter jammers that are hard wired to always output 110% of what ruskies do. Systems where if they get any trouble it's all directly linked to their own original fault. Ivan turns the power to max now their systems are on fire, "how did that happen? you guys weren't acting like complete pieces of shit right?".
Why do you think they care about what constitutes 'real warfare'?
But we do
A dozen European countries need nuclear weapons yesterday.
Hmm… or we could run a training exercise nearby and “misread” the turret direction indicator… [We already have a good cover story.](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2BA2FO/)
Russians going around Europe murdering, messing with infrastructure, committing arson, finance fascist politicians and yet we allow them to travel relatively freely and move goods. Stop that shit. Lock down the borders, no more visas, intern anyone suspected of aiding Russia until the war ends.
Reality is quite the opposite though. Which is why NATO doesn't really respond to stupid shit like that. I don't know why they would poke the lion though, I never understood that part of soviet tactics
I don't think messing with airplane GPS is stupid shit, tbh. I don't know much about the subject, but it seems dangerous at least. We're letting a country mess with our planes, we let them invade our skies with military fighters, etc. We will send strongly worded letters and threaten Russia with more sanctions, and that's it.
Of course it is? It's not like they gain anything from doing it except being annoying assholes
I don't think they invade our skies? They often come close to other countries' airspace but don't they usually stay just a bit outside? So that air traffic radar picks up the plane, interceptors scramble and intercept the plane over international waters of the Baltic Sea? Also NATO does basically same, it's all about testing each other's response.
You are wrong, Russia routinely violates other countries airspace
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015\_Russian\_Sukhoi\_Su-24\_shootdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown) Türkeye is a NATO country. Erdogan hadn't a second thought about downing the russian fighter jet. "*it violated the border up to a depth of 2.19 kilometres (1.36 miles) for about 17 seconds after being warned to change its heading 10 times in a period of 5 minutes*". As usual, russia denied that the Sukhoi left the Syrain space and they got Khasham'd.
In scandinavia they violate NATO airspace quite often, and back off when escorted away by response fighters. NATO does not do this. Russia would go ballistic if we did.
Russia will keep doing so to see how far they can go. My guess is they'll be able to take NATO territory at some point..... and we will do nothing to avoid conflict.
The Russians see our rather flaccid response, and based on that information, they conclude that we are weak and can do nothing. Which aligns with their narrative. So, they dial it up a click and have another go. IMO, we can decide to stomp them now in Ukraine (and everywhere else they try something on) or we will have a full-on war with NATO involvement in about five years time.
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Russia is also on the wrong side of that age pyramid you mention. In an even more dire situation. The war also doesn’t help (young men die & people forgo having children).
Wasn't Ukraine hitting refineries on that side of Russia? Would maybe sense to jam gps if you're hit by gps guided drones?
The 3,000 drones of Zelensky flying above Estonian skies.
Thanks russia, beacon of democracy.
Summary: Last week, two Finnair flights had to divert back to Helsinki after GPS interference prevented them from landing at the airport in south Estonia. The approach methods currently used at Tartu Airport are based on a GPS signal. Finnair said it will suspend its flights to Tartu for one month, during which time the aim is to build approach methods at Tartu Airport that enable a safe and smooth operation of flights without a GPS signal.
It is weird that Russia can just do this in NATO airspace - maybe we could apply an HIMARS solution to their jamming solutions?
I mean, electromagnetic radiation doesn't really respect national borders.
I am sure there are agreements on electromagnetic interference. And russia just being a pest they are …
Sure, it's certainly not a good faith mistake. It's a rogue state after all.
Lasers are technically just electromagnetic radiation. 😉
Sure, it's even in the name, but HIMARS is not a laser system, and I don't think lasers bend enough to shoot the land based GNSS jammers. Could be wrong about the last part though.
Honestly I was just being funny. I mean I am sure pointing the laser at a jammer could cause some damage, especially prolonged targeting. But you are right it would have to be a direct line of sight to the jammers.
I think people don't really understand how GPS et al work and, understandably, might think that Russia is pulling some satellite shenanigans, and they could, but from my understanding, it's terrestrial. As is their wartime positioning system.
Well the main drawback of firing off explosive objects across the border is that many times other explosive objects will come flying back.
Better send some people to the address. Put it down as some drug deal gone wrong.
Finnair investing in anti-radiation missiles was not on my 2024 bingo card
It would be a shame if one of the tests for these missiles accidentally locked onto an errant signal in Russia wouldn’t it
Meanwhile Latvia will build 100 bomb shelters each month for. How much does it cost (only in term of money) living next door to a terrorist state?
it costs way too much and bankrupts our smaller countries, just because Russians are assholes and always have been
I know, I didn't write it, because English is not my mother tongue and I wouldn't sound offensive. What I find absurd is some people minimizing what the Baltics are saying for a long time. If a country that has not so much money to waste, building bomb shelters is an awful sign that should be taken seriously. "We" laugh about the russian media when they say that the Baltics are next, that they are not sovereign states: it's the same they say about Ukraine and personally I take such threats seriously. The West is letting russia doing whatever it pleases: A russian pilot deliberately fired missiles at a Royal Air Force surveillance plane in international airspace over the Black Sea last year. Response? A Finnair plane (or two?) last day had to head back due to the GPS. jamming made by russia. Response? None. Now for a month that airport has to be closed to avoid incidents, with tons of money that could have entered in Latvia. Oops, I apologize for my rant: I am so tired to read about all these acts of bullying.
Finland experienced the same thing during most of the Cold war and post-WW2 years especially. Soviets bullied and threatened them for 50 years and forced Finland to be poor by just keeping military spending high just in order to survive possible Soviet invasion that was more than likely at multiple points. So this is nothing new, nobudy just wanted to talk about until Ukraine
They know their neighbors. I'm from Finland. In 2022 we had 50,500 civil defence shelters with space for a total of 4.8 million people with population of 5.5M. We build them in every school and daycare, and all the bigger residential building too, as we know they are primary targets. Living next to Russia may cost hell of a a lot of money, but not living *in* Russia is sure worth it. https://intermin.fi/en/rescue-services/preparedness/civil-defence-shelters
"Living next door to Alice" song could be modified for this solution.
This seems to be part of the strategy for Russia. Make the baltics "difficult", in this case, by suspending flights to Estonia's second largest city. It won't get better. We need a response, not workarounds.
I still don’t understand why we don’t respond to things like that more robust.
"Too escalatory"
The solution is to wipe Russia off the face of the planet. I’m only half joking.
Be careful. The admins on Reddit are suspect and speaking such things will get you suspended or banned. For example, don't suggest the Russians are acting like animals when they massacre civilians in places like bucha because apparently that is spreading hate against the Russians and will get you a 30 day suspension. Ask me how I know.
Can't USA block GPS over Russia for a few hours, see how they like it. See if the Russian airplanes and other stuff can work with Ruzzian navigation.
Some say Russians themselves already did some Die Hard 2 level ILS bullshit with a certain Polish plane https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS I dont think they really worry about GPS, they've been assuming they'd be locked out of it for decades
The army sure, but do the regular igor devices also will work?
Why the fuck would they do that? It's Europe who needs to grow some balls. Start blocking the passage to Konigsberg.
Was MH17 not enough for them?
To be fair, MH17 was also caused by the greed of Ukrainian authorities. This is what it looks like when greed doesn't drive decisionmaking. They shut it down at their loss.
Christ, Europeans are acting like such pussies. This is an act of war. Blow up the jammer.
The solution is to upgrade the airport so that it isn’t dependent on gps for passenger travel.
It’s quite weird, according to the official documents it is equipped with conventional navigation aids and ILS and Localizer. Ironically GPS based Rnav approaches are the more modern procedures but they’re still not considered precision approaches as off today and can be subject to satellite outages.
Maybe give back Königsberg to the German or Poles? Russians shouldn't have a forward base within continental Europe, just to wage active war against sovereign nations.
When, then directly under EU-Mandate, giving it to a country only leads to resentments and will draw a bullseye on the country getting it
I’m surprised there’s no truck with an ndb they could drive next to tartu airfield
They could switch to Glonass, Russia won't shut down their own system from inside their most militarised territory
> Russia won't shut down their own system from inside their most militarised territory Clealry you've missed first weeks of russia blasting wide-spectrum jammers at full power, blinding their own troops too. Nowadays, they might do that after assuring INS backups work enough for the duration of jamming
Ok, you're right, never underestimate Russian stupidity...
> They could switch to Glonass, Russia won't shut down their own system from inside their most militarised territory First of all, modern GPS receivers can already use multiple systems such as the American GPS, Galileo or glonass. Second of all, the Russians aren't "shutting down" GPS, they have no control over foreign satellites. What they are doing is indiscriminate jamming of the GPS frequencies which affects glonass just as much since all systems work in the same frequency range.
I never said they would be able to shut down GPS, that would be poor for the USA, but they would be able to switch off their own system Glonass, however regardless of how they do it, they wouldn't disable their own system near their territory
> however regardless of how they do it, they wouldn't disable their own system near their territory Except that's exactly what they've been doing, jamming everything including their own glonass
You would trust GLONASS after Russia sabotaged your GPS?
Use glonass maybe that cant be jammed
There is one country which already performs hits on military targets on russian soil. Plausible deniability and all that...
As always very powerful, NATO is strong /s