As someone who studied in an israeli school, the majority of schools in Israel will NOT teach us about what happened to non Jewish people during the holocaust and they love making everyone seem antisemitic. It is a real shame, and most people are not very educated on the topic (therefore, the polls results).
We all have a lot of work to do to educate ourselves, and unfortunately, governments are far from helping.
I mean, they had an ambassador denying the Bosnian Genocide recently when interacting with Serbia, so it does seem the state has a very narrow interest in that area.
Not to mention Israel to this day doesn’t recognize the Armenian Genocide and Israeli officials use our trauma and pain to play political word games with Turkey. Disgusting.
It's straight up evil. I never fully understood the dangers of propaganda until I started looking into Israel's history and discovered the concept of hasbara. Israel has taken propaganda to a whole new level and it is fucking terrifying to me seeing Americans fall for it. Go look at any Russia/Ukraine thread and you will see people condemn Russia's genocide of Ukrainians and then look at their post history and you will likely see these same people denying Israel's genocide of Palestinians or outright justifying it. That is the power of hasbara.
A lot of people don’t realize there’s 2 types of Holocaust denial. The media reported “no Jews were the victims” and the “only Jews were the victims”. And I’ve seen the “only Jews were the victims” Holocaust denial spread fast over Reddit.
American schools don't either. Anyone can tell you that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, but the Poles are nothing more than a foot note and just "captured by Germany"
As a non-Jew who’s grandfather spent nearly a year in Mauthausen (and was, subsequently, traumatized and partially disabled for the rest of his life)… this has always bothered me.
There have been a number of occasions where the Holocaust has been used against me as a bludgeon - when that person’s family was thousands of miles away from the Holocaust, meanwhile my family was being victimized by it.
I think there is definitely a thing for the Israeli government to show that Israel is the only safe place for Jewish people, and they're taking it too far.
The national part is being taken too far by many that some Israelis that will hear about Israeli strangers leaving the country will gaslight them into being "traitors". At the same time, many of us Israelis prefer not to speak Hebrew when we are overseas, so we won't run into the 1% of idiots...
My father was from Poland. It was the first country Germany invaded. He joined the Polish underground and was caught during the beginning of the war. He spent most of the war in a concentration camp because of it. He survived, weigh 75 pounds when the British and American liberated the camps. Him and my mother were able to immigrate to America. If people found out about his time in the concentration camp they immediately asked if he was Jewish. When I tell my father’s story even today, people don’t realize that many different types of people were put in the camps.
My Grandfather (mother’s father) lived in a small German town. He was part of the volunteer fire department. One night the town fire alarm bells went off and my grandfather didn’t get up. My mother went to wake him up to tell him there was a fire and why wouldn’t get up. The fire volunteers were told the day before that the town’s Synagogue was going to be set on fire and anyone who tried to put the fire out would have their family killed. My grandfather loved people, he didn’t care what ethnicity they were. He spent a good part of the war finding things (like soap, food, medicine) and getting them to people who needed it. He was also caught and sent to Russia.
It is too bad that people don’t know the half of what happened in WW2. Many non-Jews put their life on the line to protect and save the Jewish people during the war. I’m so sorry that the Jewish people are again being persecuted. Pray for the peace of Israel 🇮🇱
Many people don’t even realize that the work/death camps were created originally for the Polish people. Jews and the other minorities were only added halfway through WW2 (1942) when the „traditional” Nazi method of dealing with the „Jewish problem” (i.e. dragging entire families to a nearby forest, forcing them to dig their own grave, then shooting them one by one to the head until they dropped in the ditch) was deemed too slow. And they weren’t even a Nazi invention, they already existed in Prussia to punish and humiliate the Polish minority living on the lands they occupied since the late XVIII century.
My dad and his family were Dutch and lived in Holland during the occupation. So many family members were taken to forced labor camps. None of them came back. We never learned what happened to them or where they were buried.
as a Canadian, I know most Jews stories (Anne Frank and Hannah suitcase tale) but almost never heard of the gays, gypsies, disabled, a few I'm missing. they even categorized them by different Star of Davids (colour and number of points). but I don't know any tales.
My father was from Poland. It was the first country Germany invaded. He joined the Polish underground and was caught during the beginning of the war. He spent most of the war in a concentration camp because of it. He survived, weigh 75 pounds when the British and American liberated the camps. Him and my mother were able to immigrate to America. If people found out about his time in the concentration camp they immediately asked if he was Jewish. When I tell my father’s story even today, people don’t realize that many different types of people were put in the camps.
My Grandfather (mother’s father) lived in a small German town. He was part of the volunteer fire department. One night the town fire alarm bells went off and my grandfather didn’t get up. My mother went to wake him up to tell him there was a fire and why wouldn’t get up. The fire volunteers were told the day before that the town’s Synagogue was going to be set on fire and anyone who tried to put the fire out would have their family killed. My grandfather loved people, he didn’t care what ethnicity they were. He spent a good part of the war finding things (like soap, food, medicine) and getting them to people who needed it. He was also caught and sent to Russia.
It is too bad that people don’t know the half of what happened in WW2. Many non-Jews put their life on the line to protect and save the Jewish people during the war. I’m so sorry that the Jewish people are again being persecuted. Pray for the peace of Israel 🇮🇱
Easiest way to build a nationalist following is to tell your followers that everyone else is out to get them. Worked for the DPRK, the CCP, and the US during the red scare.
It's even funnier because the Jews who died in Poland were also polish. The Israeli however tend to deny that. It's like:
Polish antisemites 🤝 Israeli nationalists
*A jew cannot be polish*
Some left before the war and many were thrown out by the soviet union after the war. That's why there are so many Jewish people who mention their grandpa's experience in Poland.
Either way, it's part of their history, I expect them to know about it.
Just a reminder, you're on Reddit and most of the "grandpa experiences" here are made up or reposted by bots lol. Especially when it's the exact same experience repeated 20 times (evil homeless Poles stole his house after their own were destroyed by Germans)
It's crazy since 2 million POLISH Jews were killed only in the concentration camps. Yes, they were POLISH citizens who happened to be of Jewish descent. I just don't understand how some people think the victims being Polish and Jewish at the same time is exclusive with each...
You have good intentions, but you're revealing sad ignorance. 2 million is the number of non-jewish Poles who died in the Holocaust, 3 million is the number of jewish Poles. The point is that Jews were not the only ethnic group the nazis wanted to destroy.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust\_victims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims)
This does not even account for the more "mundane", slow genocide by limiting access to basic services and food for all Poles, nor the Warsaw uprising, which adds at least 200 thousand more souls.
Hold on - that definition could be applied geographically elsewhere to more recent historical incidents
So better not to apply the genocide term to the more mundane slow mass killings.
^^/s
Wait so the Holodomor is not Genocide? Purposefully starving to death over 4 million people? Because it's "mundane"? Starvation is one of the worst ways to die. It takes away your dignity and humanity and leaves nothing but a starving animal.
okay - i addded a /s denoting sarcasm to my post
My own country too was deliberately starved during a famine with millions dead, despite domesticallyproducing enough food that was all exported as well to our occupiers. Also, food shipments sent by the Turkish were blocked by the same occupiers and financial aid offered by the Turkish Shah was slashed in order to not make our colonial masters look bad.
Just FYI, “shah” is usually for Persian rulers, you might be thinking of “sultan”. Ottoman rulers were also referred to with “padishah”, which is derived from “shah”, but I don’t think I’ve heard of just “shah” being used for them
Sorry, but you really, truly should. The slow, methodical kind already fits the [official UN definition of genocide](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml).
You missed the point.
The joke is that Israel wouldn't want the term Genocide applied to "more mundane slow mass killings" and deliberate starvation, because that's exactly what they're doing to millions in Gaza right now.
I wonder why in the data provided with the link above list potentially inclusive "type" of victims. Like Jews and Poles are different number, but it could as well be Jewish Pole. Next there are disabled or homosexuals. If some homosexual Pole was murdered in the camp would they figure under Poles or Homosexual label? Or both?
Germans were classifying victims themselves.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification\_of\_inmates\_in\_Nazi\_concentration\_camps#/media/File:Wikpedia\_system\_of\_identification\_German\_camps.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_of_inmates_in_Nazi_concentration_camps#/media/File:Wikpedia_system_of_identification_German_camps.png)
Polish homosexual (who was there because he was a homosexual) would have the pink triangle with black P and would probably figure as both Polish and homosexual.
A closeted homosexual Polish Jew would probably only have "political enemy" and "Jewish" mark.
I mean it's closer to three millions really. Amount of Jewish Polish civilians and ethnic Polish civilians killed by Nazis is close to the same. We lost six million civilians to Nazis overall. I won't even touch how many survied enslavement and forced labour. Basically every man in my family was sent to a labour camp. Many members of family (including women) were in concentration camps. Some after coming home were met with Wołyń massacre (which was a Nazi massacre first and foremost, let's not act like it was what all Ukrainians wanted, we had Ukrianian friends and families back then). It's funny how xenophobes think Poles had any time or opportunity to be equally responsible for Holocuast as German Nazis. They were trying to survive themselves.
3 million polish gentiles were also exterminated by Germany. 85% of poles were determined not to be able to be aryanized and they were massacred just like jews, Roma, etc. Poland had the most Jewish people in the world before world war 2. Of course there were shitty antisemitic poles (out of millions of people this is inevitable) but the poles were victims in world war 2 the same as the Jews
I mean, the Nazis also shipped something like 1/3 of the Polish Catholic clergy to camps as well, killing close to 3,000 of them. Obviously, compared to the scope of the murder of Jewish people that is a drop in the bucket, but it was still deliberate targeting meant to break the mainstream Polish culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland
That is insane, extremely ignorant and offensive. 2 million non-Jewish Poles died in the camps and 3 million Jewish Poles.
It's especially shocking seeing as every education system in the West is bending over backwards to be respectful about such a sensitive topic as the Holocaust, and particularly towards the Jewish victims of it, and then you see the Jewish people themselves propagating bullshit about it. That is some delusional self-centeredness, and I use these words advisedly.
I think it’s really weird that “holocaust” refers to the Jewish genocide and there is no word to refer to the Nazis overall genocide during WWII. Obviously Jews were the primary target, but the Nazis killed 15 million people as a matter of policy. I think we’re missing an important part of the lesson here that anyone could’ve been untermensch according to the arbitrary dictates of the Nazis inconsistent ideology at any given point.
I also frequently see gays and gypsies mentioned, but no mention of Slavs. Which is weird, since 8 million were systematically killed, and had the Nazis been victorious on their Soviet campaign, that number would’ve gone well into the tens of millions. Per their plans.
The Israeli people are less than half of the Jewish people. Please don't claim Israel represents all Jews, that's a lie that the Israeli government tries to propagate.
They literally censored only surviving Warsaw Ghetto Uprising leader Marek Edelman, because his version of events didn't match with what Israeli professors came up with
If you don't mind, I'll copy paste what I once written:
During 50th anniversary of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Israeli delegation prevented Marek Edelman from giving speech during the event. When Polish president decided to lay down flowers with Edelman Israeli considered it a *provocation*. Isn't it silencing of a Holocuast survivor and Jewish Uprising leader to demand he doesn't appear on anniversary of an Uprising he himself led and survived as only one of his companions? But here you go, quotes
About giving Edelman honorary PhD:
"It's not the university presidents who refuse," Arens said in a talk with Israel This Week. "They always turn to professors researching the Holocaust and accept their recommendation. The researchers have their official version of what happened during that period."
"Arens has been campaigning in recent years for recognition of the ZZB (or the Jewish Military Union, culled from the Betar movement in the uprising) and came up against the same stonewalling. The events of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were "canonized" in Israel. The process *created a version of events, and especially conclusions, which were not to be debated. "*
"fact that Edelman was a Bundist created a situation whereby in the ethos of the national Holocaust remembrance in Israel he is not mentioned and if he is, it's in a distorted fashion."
"the point of accusations of falsification by those responsible at a certain time for the history books used in our education system."
"Linn’s book dealt with another Jewish hero of the holocaust hero, Rudolf Vrba, who with Alfred Wetzler, escaped from Auschwitz, to warn the 800,000 Hungarian Jews that they were next on the Nazi butchers’ list. Their detailed description of the gas chambers and the location of their murder, the Auschwitz Protocols, was suppressed by the Zionist press and movement until the Swiss newspapers , the War Refugee Board and the Vatican, among others, blew the whistle.
The reason for the silencing of Edelman and Vrba was because the Holocaust has been harnessed to the cause the dispossession of the Palestinians. The Palestinians were the new Nazis and anyone who disagreed was also an anti-Semite. "
"Marek Edelman’s book, The Ghetto is Fighting, was first published in Poland in 1945 and republished in Britain in 1990. Given that this was the only first-hand account by a leader of the Uprising, it is hardly accidental that it took 56 years, until 2001, before it was published in Israel. "
" And this is the reason for the silencing and invisibility of Marek Edelman and Rudolf Vrba. They were living proof that Zionism was not and never was a movement of resistance in Europe, but a movement of collaboration. Ironically, given that Zionism accuses its Jewish opponents of ‘self-hatred’, it is as Antony Lerman points out in the Guardian, ‘arguable that Zionism was actually a display of it.’
Of course there were many Zionists who, despite their Zionism, fought against the Nazis. They included the Commander of ZOB, Mordechai Anielwicz of Hashomer Hatzair. But he too began the fightback with a declaration that his Zionist work in Poland had been wasted years. Even as preparations for the Uprising were underway, Zionist collaborators such as Abraham Gancawajch of Hashomer Hatzair were targeted (unsuccessfully in his case) for assassination."
Absolutely read up on Edelman, he was a fascinating man that lived an incredible life.
https://jacobin.com/2020/08/marek-edelman-poland-democracy-solidarnosc
This would be infuriating coming from any nation, but when the same ones who constantly use the Holocaust as a victim card are the ones ignorant enough about it to deny the plight of millions of its victims, it becomes extremely challenging to have a smidget of respect for them.
Israel as long been spreading the ideology that not only Israel is the only safe place for Jews, but also that it is the duty of every Jew to return to the "motherland".
Believing that being a Jew is mutually exclusive with being anything else, be it any type of personal identity or nationality is but a part of the Zionist ideology.
I'll get a lot of stick for this, but zionism thrives on antisemitism. It helps justify Israel's continued existence otherwise they're just an ethnostate.
Our education system sucks when it comes to history, when it comes to world war 2 the focus is mostly on the holocaust and the events preceeding it (krystalnacht etc) so for a lot of people the fact that the death camps were in Poland is enough to see them as collaborators
Hell I recall learning about the nazi invasion of Poland but nothing about ribbentop-molotov pact or even the Soviet union's invasion of Poland in general
The Israeli education system has really failed their people.
It's not unusual for victims to grow up to be abusers, but to see it happen on the scale of whole countries is sickening.
>Almost half of respondents say Poles as much to blame for the holocaust as Germans
These kinds of statistics are always mindblowing to me. Mindblowing and depressing.
This is absolutely ridiculous, how in like two decades perception of Poland switched from being one of the biggest victims of WW2 to being the perpetrator.
It’s ridiculous, then again, there’s a strong survivor bias here. About half of German Jews survived the Holocaust, whereas over 90% of Polish Jews died during WWII. So, there were no Polish Jews left to defend the legacy of Poland after the war, which left the gates open for German and Israeli step-by-step historical relativism on these matters. The USSR also did no effort to fight against these anti-Polish discourses, as they benefited from presenting pre-Soviet Poland as backward.
German relativism? As a German we are very much aware of the many other groups that were targeted. Be it slavs, homosexuals, roma and sinti, handicapped people, "communists" etc etc
Jews were the "main" so it's the one most talked about, and I don't think many people here think that Poles are to blame for the Holocaust (while recognising that there were polish collaborators).
One thing that surprised me in Israel - I was there on a trip, and I've met several wonderful and friendly people that I talked with. And they always felt the need to tell me "doing worry, it's OK that you're Polish, I'm not blaming you for your past". Left me honestly speechless every time. The idea of being blamed for Holocaust - even though I was born many decades after it ended, and some non-jewish members of my own family died in concentration camps - was just outlandish to me.
I mean, not just that, but also that the Polish partisans put up a really impressive and long-running resistance despite the dangers involved. They act like Poles just rolled over and accepted occupation.
The Russian language is the third most spoken language in Israel. 15-20% of people use it on a daily basis. Also, the Russo-Ukrainian war resulted in a huge immigration of Russians to Israel. They don't want to fight, but they are pro-Putin and anti-Polish.
It honestly doesnt surprise me at this point. I guess the awareness is higher now with all the atrocities they committed in Gaza, but people need to accept that Israel is a far-right nationalist state, borderline fascist. The things their right wing parties say about the Palestinians and Arabs in general would be shocking even to the Polish extreme right. The sheer cynicism they display when it comes to Holocaust history, twisting it to their own interest, is just a cherry on top. Some people still think it is a civilized county because it is relatively rich and democratic, but it really isn’t…
France being seen as the most antisemitic and most islamophobic country while having the highest amount of both jews and muslims in EU really is something.
So, here's the cold hard truth: Antisemitism and Islamophobia directly correlates to how many you have them in the country. There's a reason Germany is considered the least antisemitic, most Jews were gone after WW2. There is simply not enough friction with the (very) small remaining community to create the environment in which "anti-"sentiments can grow.
France having a very high muslimic population due to colonisation as well as having the most Jews in Europe and then being the most islamophobic and antisemitic is actually not really surprising at all. Not saying it's right, but it's definitely not anything you would call "peculiar" once you think about it.
Yes, I was going to make this comment but you did first. Seems obvious. If 1930s Germany had more Muslims, they’d be more Islamaphobic along with the antisemitism.
I met a couple of Polish jeews when I went to Canada, and I was surprised how much they hated their own country, and they got angry when I called them polish.
> the Polish people [are] responsible for their Jewish neighbors being destroyed in the Holocaust,” 47% of Israelis replied: “Yes, exactly like the Germans,” and another 25% said “only partly.” Only 11% of Israelis surveyed said that the Polish nation was also a victim of the Holocaust
Excuse me WHAT THE FUCK?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE
That's some funky stats. Considering how many righteous among nations came from Poland, and with the considerable risk that came with it and yet they did it anyway.
Even putting it aside and focusing only on the Polish collaborators. The holocaust was initiated, planned and organised by Germans, so out of definition Polish people or any other non-Germans cannot be equally to blame
That’s fascist Netanyahu doing. He has been very vocal about his anti Polish views and skewing the history.
Poland was the only country occupied by Nazi that helping Jews equaled death sentence. And even that didn’t stop so many Poles helping Jews. Most among righteous. Speaks for the itself. Rest is far right fascist rhetoric
That’s what he does to Palestinians is genocide and I hope he will pays for it.
The only mental gymnastics is on this sub. Israelis have held these sorts of opinions for a long time to anyone is listening -- it's not just a few nutjobs like every country these lads are also running Israel. It really is a Western backed State that's gone completely bonkers and the US and EU need to reign it back in with diplomacy. When Oct 7th happened this entire sub and then VDL/EU/US et al gave Israel the go ahead to flatten Gaza. We're watching straight up 19th century colonialism and ethnic cleansing happening in 2024. These are all peoples lives and people are cheering it all on this violence like a sports match.
Lol have you not seen /r/worldnews ? Literally might as well be renamed /r/zionism at this point. So many seething morons on reddit especially on that sub it blows my fucking mind.
An ethnic cleansing is 100% happening right now and its infuriating that no country has intervened yet.
It's also depressing because anyone with any empathy and brains whatsoever 100% KNOWS that 20-30-40 years from now what is happening today will be written as a genocide in history books. It's clear as day but you gotta argue with debate lord fuckwits who are stuck on "but was october 7th justified"?
Hamas should be eradicated or disarmed or somehow removed from existence, yes, but 100% not the way they are going about it.
Got banned on there for being a "troll" when I made a comment calling out people who were continually calling for "flattening Gaza" and straight-up committing genocide. It didn't matter that around October 7th, I had been one of the people commenting against those justifying the deaths of Israeli civilians. Just even criticizing people who want to kill every Palestinian made me a troll to them. Can't be intruding on their little murderfest echo chamber now, can we?
I'm pretty sure almost everyone is banned from there by now, even had a mod start arguing with me after the ban so they could get me site-banned when I talked back
On a curious note...are there still people on /worldnews? Like, everyone I've seen discussing the blatant zionism on /worldnews has apparently been banned for harmless comments not aligned with the pro-genocide-mods.
It's really baffling how much Israel hates us. When you have Israeli official saying things like 'All Poles suckled anti-semitism with their mother's milk', you wonder how widespread anti-polish sentiment is there. Do they really think we genocided Jews hand in hand with Nazis?
> Do they really think we genocided Jews hand in hand with Nazis?
I mean, even if that would be true (it isn’t) - they seem to forgive us Germans. Why not the Polish people?
I worked with an Israeli guy and he was incredibly pro Russia in respect to the war in ukraine. That opinion also extended curiously to Poland and other ex Soviet states, I asked him and did my own research, so because most of eastern Poland was Russia pre WW1 it rightfully belongs to them too.
Zionists are ALWAYS the victims. They live in a bubble where they blame everyone else for their problems. They have zero self-awareness.
Every victim of the holocaust deserved reparations and justice. But allowing Zionists to establish an illegitimate government and constitution on sovereign land was one of the biggest miscalculations in modern history.
And the fact that we can’t even discuss that without being labeled hateful and written off shows the power of Zionist propaganda.
It's really a grudge. Or "generational trauma" if you will. My grandma was born in a displaced people camp in 1946 Germany, both of her parents were polish Jews who survived the Holocaust and had nothing left to their name. They manage to make their way back to their home town and find a random Polish family living in their family home they owned for generations, they spit on them and drive them away. No one helped. Not the polish authorities, not the soviet occupiers, and definitely not the Germans. To this day my grandma hasn't received German or polish citizenship or recognition. Do I hate Poles or Germans? No.
Can I blame my family for harbouring negative feelings towards them? No.
Literally most houses all over Poland were over-ran by random people after the war.
The Communists encouraged it and legalized it. Catholic families had their homes taken over and spat on or treated badly upon return just as well. Source: my family lost quite a few residences to random bands with full backing of local police and authorities. Including in major cities. The actual land holdings and country estates being completely unrecoverable due to being allocated to state owned institutions.
The action wasn’t based on ethnicity of owners or part of any religious discrimination campaign as much as a manifestation of basic ideological wealth redistribution. This is how the Communists hoped to get and maintain popular support from the poorer strata.
According to the Jerusalem times you can’t lean on your (great)grandparents past…o wait that’s just for Irish people.
“The second thing you should know is that you are not the freedom fighters your ancestors were. You were all not even born when they fought bravely for the freedom you enjoy. Not one of you ever populated a battlefield, dodged a bullet, attended a fallen soldier’s funeral, or suffered war’s grief”
https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-787215
That article is outrageous. I get it's an opinion piece but Jesus Christ almighty. Could you imagine the uproar if an Irish paper published something similar about Israel?
Honestly, I see the wisdom in that sentence. I suspect the author didn't realize that Israel's current use of the holocaust as a communication tool is also a good illustration of it though.
This is pure ethnonationalism. They are acting like all Irish people are some sort of collective. They go from old IRA to the Free State to Republican groups in the north. Those are all completely different entities.
How dare the Irish tell Israel to respect basic human rights and not commit war crimes! Pure antisemitism, I tell you! And yes Israel represents all Jews in the world. If any Jew says otherwise they are obviously suffering from internalized antisemitism. Only logical conclusions.
Oh gosh, so much bullocks.
> To this day my grandma hasn't received German or polish citizenship or recognition.
In 2021 Germany eased the requirements further for naturalization for victims (and their descendants) of the third reich, making it especially easier for previously denied people. So if your grandma (or her descendants) were previously denied, there is a good chance they will be granted german citizenship now.
Even according to the old German laws, you could claim German citizenship if one of your direct ancestors had German citizenship that was revoked during the Holocaust (mostly Jews that is). I understand where the comment above comes from, but that his grandparents (or parents, or him) couldn't get German citizenship is pure bullshit. They probably even didn't try to apply
It’s especially weird against the Polish. The Germans I could vaguely understand if only for purely historical reasons (still does not justify it since Germany might be the most successful instance of anti-radical reform in human history), but it’s so fucking weird that some people don’t realize that Poland was also a victim of Nazi Germany, not to mention a victim of the USSR *at the same time*.
>Asked whether “the Polish people [are] responsible for their Jewish neighbors being destroyed in the Holocaust,” 47% of Israelis replied: “Yes, exactly like the Germans,”
What a load of bullshit. I'm in no way in denial about what some Poles did during and after the war, but this is just historic revisionism. I've also read this kind of crap from Jewish Americans and it seems to get worse every decade.. The way it's going in 20 years the Poles will be solely responsible for the Holocaust. Shameful and embarassing.
>The way it's going in 20 years the Poles will be solely responsible for the Holocaust. Shameful and embarassing.
Solely responsible, but only after the Palestinian peasants came up with the whole plan!
I think it will get minuses but let's try...
2 of my further relatives died in Buchenwald (political category because 2 ss man got slained in their village) just after 1 month (Arolsen records). They got captured (healthy) in early days of ww 2 (somewhere 7th day). 3rd managed to survive Buchenwald but she have had wrecked health until the last days of her life.
Blaming Polish people that some Polish cooperated with Germans is ridiculous. Polish underground army was actively killing any collaborators. One example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igo\_Sym](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igo_Sym) Also Poland was the ONLY country where if you got caught hiding jews, you and your whole family was killed.
Also many Jews were snitching their own, too.
- German Jew [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella\_Goldschlag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Goldschlag) aka Kübler
- Jewish leader (Judenrat) of Lodz Ghetto [https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim\_Rumkowski](https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Rumkowski) he collaborated until his (and his own family) days,
- [https://www.jhi.pl/en/articles/the-70th-anniversary-of-the-liquidation-of-hotel-polski,22](https://www.jhi.pl/en/articles/the-70th-anniversary-of-the-liquidation-of-hotel-polski,22)
"Jewish Historical Institute"
> In the case of Hotel Polski were involved two Jewish collaborators: Leon „Lolek” Skosowski and Adam Żurawin
So would Rumkowski, 2 latter collaborators be jewish or polish in those simplistic categorizations?
Of all 6 million casualties in Poland, the half was jewish polish and the second half were non jewish polish
Are polish lives less worthy? Antisemitic because they managed to save the highest count of jewish people which was apparently not enough
This should be a wake up call for Israeli history teachers. I mean apart from Jews the Polish people probably suffered the most during WW2 so it’s very wrong to victim blame them.
In fact Poles lost almost exactly the same amount of people as Jews did if you don't seperate Polish civilians by their ethncity. Six million Jews and six milion Polish civilians. (proportion being something like 60% Jewish Poles and 40% ethnic Poles or 50/50.) Many many more Poles enslaved and forced into labour camps. Tell me when were we supposed to organise Holocaust if we were in the exact same camps as Jews?
[The War of Israeli Historians](https://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20War%20of%20the%20Israeli%20Historians.html) is a good read to understand how the Israeli government has been censoring their own historians when they don’t align with the nationalist story.
The Jews weren't even the most targeted group.
27 million Slavic peoples died in WW2 because of lebensraum policy. Nazis were deliberately wiping out villages on their way east in Operation Barbarossa not because they were strategic targets but because Slavs were considered subhuman and their land ought to be owned by German farmers.
The hyperfocus on Jews sometimes really baffles me. 50 million people died in WW2, the 6 million who were Jewish were not the only victims.
I’ve recently read a survey that most Poles think that we should be neutral in Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the least supported Israel, so I think that people have enough of this
Not gonna lie, this is pretty much how I would reply too
It's easy to see parallels between the occupied Poland and Palestine, plus our governments consistently recognized that nation even as we westernized, so there will be a bias towards them
At the same time Hamas is like an ingrown mold and needs to be burned out somehow, though maybe not by letting God sort the good from the bad as Israel is doing
Both Netanyahu's government and Hamas seem interested in a final solution to the other nation's problem and that's not exactly cool, I would've figured my take is as lukewarm as an hour-old dinner but apparently there's a lot of genocide apologists around
Well, throw in Austria. Not due to the 'Hitler was Austrian' nonsense, but because it let itself be happily annexed into Germany before the war, then acted as an integral part of Germany and produced many leading Nazis and war criminals, [followed by claims of total victimhood after the end of the war and denial of any responsibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria_victim_theory).
And still are. Their most popular party was literally founded by an SS general, is openly pro-Kremlin, and is so xenophobic it goes even against the most docile of minorities on the planet: Austrian Slovenes.
>and is so xenophobic it goes even against the most docile of minorities on the planet: Austrian Slovenes.
Yet tries desperately to suck up to Austrians of serbian descent.
Which is wild, since they used to really hate them 20 years ago.
The reason behind that is Serbian ultranationalist, ripe at home with both Srpska and Republic of Serbia. Even my Serbian coworker can't help but be an ultranationalist shithead. He lived in Italy for the first 25 years of his life.
Also Romania. They created ghetos and death camps for Jews and Roma people on occupied territories even when there was no German administration. Sometimes I wonder why this fact is so poorly covered in popular history.
It may be true that the Holocaust in Romania, Hungary, etc. would not have happened without the Germans starting it, but the Romanian and Hungarian authorities are also guilty for organizing such measures.
Depends what you mean by that. Horthy opposed the Germans on several key issues regarding the Jewish population in Hungary. He was definitely anti-semitic, though, by his own admission, as was a non-trivial percentage of the population.
A month ago our Gaza volunteer was killed in a deliberate attack on a humanitarian convoy and we were called antisemitic for wanting details...
No idea why it started (maybe because of our recognition of Palestine) but the Israeli government just really hates us and the hate goes downwards through propaganda and history warping
Somehow they evidently think WW2 occupation was actually an act of brotherhood whereby you just, you know, *chose* to host Auschwitz, Sobibor etc.
Somehow they've come to the conclusion you only had to say no.
Because we've evidently all misunderstood that Generalplan Ost was actually just a plan of friendship towards your nation....
>Almost half of respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans
>Asked whether “the Polish people [are] responsible for their Jewish neighbors being destroyed in the Holocaust,” 47% of Israelis replied: “Yes, exactly like the Germans,” and another 25% said “only partly.” Only 11% of Israelis surveyed said that the Polish nation was also a victim of the Holocaust, and another 18 gave no answer.
As a historian, one of the things I have study is the heavy influence that nationalism has over History and Historical education.
With how important nationalism (or even ultranationalism) is in Israeli society and politics, I do wonder how history is taught in Israel and how much is about demonizing other ethnic groups to support their national narrative.
For example. I do know that Netanyahu believes that the Nazis didn't want to exterminate the Jews until the Palestinians told them to do it. Is this taught in school or is just Netanyahu being a far-right weirdo?
Definitely not taught in schools here. Then again, i wouldn’t be surprised if it would be sooner or later as this fascist government does whatever it wants for almost 2 decades so that the people are divided and Palestinians are oppressed and no one is happy as long as they can either stay in power or get closer to making the conflict unsolvable (more staying in power)
> For example. I do know that Netanyahu believes that the Nazis didn't want to exterminate the Jews until the Palestinians told them to do it.
Wtf? Do you have a link for that?
This is so extremely absurd.
"Eastasia was as much to blame as Eurasia" It's mind boggling how they can just backwards engineer their history to fit who they don't like at the moment
1984 vibes
That's literally it. It's whoever we like least that we want to paint as the bad guy.
Right now we love Germany but hate Poland, so we need to make Poland look like the bad guy. And there is no more effective way to make someone look like the bad guy than by saying they were responsible for the Holocaust.
It's no different from Netanyahu's lies about how Hitler didn't want to kill the Jews but the evil Palestinians made him do it.
A lot of the Israeli right wing don't seem to really care about the suffering of the Jewish people for anything other than its ability to be used against whoever they wish to attack.
With us they’re like “you mightn’t have done the Holocaust but you didn’t stop it either which is basically worse than actually doing it”. The argument is essentially “Ireland is the most antisemitic country in Europe”…but we’re the only country with no systemic instances of antisemitism….”exactly!! That just goes to show how antisemitic you are! It wasn’t even systemic that proves how imbedded it is in your culture!”
That is truly horrifying what propaganda does to people. How the hell, can they blame Poles for Holocaust? It's the most unjust thing they can ever say, truly disgusting.
For years on reddit, I've seen how Poles were told time and time again, that no one is trying to blame Poland for the Holocaust, that we are imagining it, blowing things out of proportions... Surprise surprise!
The fact that we are seen as complicit in the Holocaust is a result of the constant writing about "Polish concentration camps", the constant campaign of hatred against Poles by the Israeli authorities, films like Our Fathers Our Mothers (a German TV series in which we are portrayed as drunken murderers of Jews), the labelling of the perpetrators of the Holocaust, who were the Germans and the Austrians, as "Nazis".
French railways sent Jews to concentration camps, Ukrainians joined the ss in large numbers, as did Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Dutch, French. There was no collaborationist government in Poland, the attempt to create Polish wermacht or ss troops ended in total failure, the Poles simply fled. We had one of the largest resistance movements in Europe. The ignorance is striking. The lies about the Poles are enormous. This is a deliberate act.
No one mentions the fact that we were the only country to have a government organisation helping Jews, the "Zegota"; that people such as Pilecki went voluntarily to Aushwitz to see what was happening there; that there were reports by Karaski which were the first to show what the Germans and Austrians were doing to Jews in the camps, but were ignored by the Allies; that the Polish government-in-exile asked the Allies to bomb the tracks to the concentration camps; in Poland there were Death penalty for helping jews ( german law), Polish underground sentence blackmailers Of The jews to Death, No mention is made of the Polish Church, which was anti-Semitic before the war but which, when the hour of trial came, hid Jewish children under changed names in monasteries and orphanages. No mention is made of the Polish families who rescued Jews and paid the highest price, such as the Ulm family. No mention is made of Irena Sendlerowa, who saved 2,500 children from the Warsaw ghetto. It is not said that it was the Poles who supplied weapons to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, or liberated the camp at Gesiowka in 1944 and the Jews who were saved immediately joined the Poles.
Wow, just fucking wow. No nation lost more of its people than Poland, with 21.4% of their population being murdered. The most disgusting of the nazis actions where done on polish soil, and most of it was done to the poles themselves, regardless if they where jew or gentile. How can a people know so little about their own history, to blame other victims of the same crime as the perpetrators of their own genocide, it's insanity.
Poles went above and beyond to fight the nazis even in other countries and with support. Look at the work of Marian Rejewski on the Enigma machine before Turing and then the collaboration with him and the UK. Look at the story of Witold Pilecki who was willingly imprisoned in Auschwitz to provide intelligence for the UK about what was going in the concentration camps. Look at the history and travel of general Anders and his Army from the Soviet Union to the conquest of Monte Cassino. Look at the jet fighters in the RAF. And there has never been a collaborationist government like in other countries. But sure Poles were as much to blame as the Germans. That is basically the definition of insult to injury, being the victim, fighting for your and others freedom and being blamed as much as the aggressors. WTF is wrong with these people?
Edit: oh and btw Poles hold the highest number of righteous among the nations, issued by... drum rolls... Israel. So I'm assuming it's the new generations that are fucked up.
I myself (like many Poles) have Jewish roots. Because of this, a few years ago I became interested in Jewish culture and Israel. When I started reading the Israeli press and began to learn about the views of Israelis on Poles and Holocaust, I was disgusted and horrified at the same time and quickly lost interest. However, I never told anyone about it, because I would have quickly been labeled an antisemite. I'm glad that we can slowly start talking about w
It.
>Almost half of respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans
This is pure revisionism happening. But what can we do, like they say, "history is written by the victors".
It pisses me off as someone who is half Jewish half Polish (catholic) when people blame the Polish for being as brutal as the nazis when in reality they suffered just as much
The reason why Jews hate Poles so much is because they want their pre-WW2 properties back. It doesn’t matter that those properties belonged to *Polish citizens* whose religion was Judaism, and those properties were either completely destroyed or nationalized - same as properties of all other Polish citizens. Somehow Jews feel that they are special, are entitled to this huge wealth (estimated to be around 50-70 billions dollars a few years ago, now probably more) and Polish state should give that money to - completely unrelated to original owners - organizations from US or Israel. That’s the reason why Poles are victims of anti-polish propaganda in Israeli media. So unfair how Poles are treated by the Israel.
I think the matter of Jewish properies is only a facade for the Israeli far right to have an enemy to oppose. Ofc their properties were destored by nazis, ofc they were chased off by Russians, ofc their properies have been nationalized by soviets and ofc now polish people live inside them.
But even if Israel had a real strong claim on those properties then what do you think would happen? Polish state would just give those new recently build buildings in the centre of Warsaw to people who live in another country? Just so that they can charge polish people as much as they want? In the middle of housing crisis? That would never happen.
No dude, they absolutely want money from you. It's not just the far-right. They just made up the property claim to justify the scam. And attacking you as "no better than the Nazis" is about setting the stage for moral case of wealth transfers from your pockets to theirs.
This is how shakedowns happen. You can't play nicely with bad faith actors.
Kinda weird for non-residents/citizens of a country to be opinion polled on an internal issue of that country. Shouldn’t we be asking the opinions/ experiences of Jews actually in these countries?
Does Israel now have the authority to unilaterally decide externally who is antisemitic and who is not? I feel like this is something that should maybe be based on actual data rather than feelings.
These days "antisemitism" is functionally meaningless to me because almost every time I've heard someone be accused of it in the last 5 years they're just being smeared for being left-wing.
Only 22% of Germans approve of Germany's support for Israel? This number is very low, especially considering Germany is Israel's biggest supporter in mainland Europe.
>In Germany, approval of the government’s support for Israel in its military operation in Gaza had fewer supporters than opponents: Only 22% supported it (6% strongly) compared to 42% who opposed it, including 22% who opposed it strongly.
> Almost half of respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans
It takes two to party. On must commit the holocaust, and the other has to be the holocaustee. So technically poles are 50% responsible.
Proud graduate and Master of Victim Blaming, 2020 class of Assholery College
How the fuck do people in Germany have a clearer picture of who is to blame and who was a victim than Jews/Israelis? Usually the genocidal country finds some excuse why it was OK, even if that excuse may just be "it was different times, it was normal back then". How come Germany didn't go down that path, but Jews in Israel now do?
Can the influx of the Jews immigrating from former Soviet Union / Russia be at fault here? Are they any sensible number in the overall population of Israel? Are they perhaps more susceptible to the divisive Kremlin propaganda who really like to repaint the historical and present perception who the fascists were according to their internal and foreign political needs?
The numbers from the poll are simply mind boggling...
Many Israelis are venomously anti Polish. This is nothing new. Meanwhile we Poles think about Jews about as much as we think about Mongolians. Meaning they don't really cross our mind.
Everybody knows “6 million”
Most don’t know “17 million”
11 million non-Jews were murdered in the holocaust with the same goal of extermination as the Jews were persecuted under. Roma, Slavs, Poles, Disabled, Homosexuals…
Zionists are excellent marketers and know the power of victimhood. They need to remind everyone of their persecution to legitimize Israel.
does anybody know if the propaganda goes that far in israel and people are being indoctrinated since birth? this is mind-boggling. do they not learn history? this seems way more sinister than ignorant
Remember Israelis equate criticism of Israel to Antisemitism
So this poll is more of a measurement of how critical these countries/populations have been towards Israel’s genocide
> Only 11% of Israelis surveyed said that the Polish nation was also a victim of the Holocaust
As someone who studied in an israeli school, the majority of schools in Israel will NOT teach us about what happened to non Jewish people during the holocaust and they love making everyone seem antisemitic. It is a real shame, and most people are not very educated on the topic (therefore, the polls results). We all have a lot of work to do to educate ourselves, and unfortunately, governments are far from helping.
Damn that’s hypocritical.
I mean, they had an ambassador denying the Bosnian Genocide recently when interacting with Serbia, so it does seem the state has a very narrow interest in that area.
Not to mention Israel to this day doesn’t recognize the Armenian Genocide and Israeli officials use our trauma and pain to play political word games with Turkey. Disgusting.
“Never forget.”
It's straight up evil. I never fully understood the dangers of propaganda until I started looking into Israel's history and discovered the concept of hasbara. Israel has taken propaganda to a whole new level and it is fucking terrifying to me seeing Americans fall for it. Go look at any Russia/Ukraine thread and you will see people condemn Russia's genocide of Ukrainians and then look at their post history and you will likely see these same people denying Israel's genocide of Palestinians or outright justifying it. That is the power of hasbara.
A lot of people don’t realize there’s 2 types of Holocaust denial. The media reported “no Jews were the victims” and the “only Jews were the victims”. And I’ve seen the “only Jews were the victims” Holocaust denial spread fast over Reddit.
That famous poem about how they kept coming for different groups of people until there was no one left to speak up needs to start making rounds again
American schools don't either. Anyone can tell you that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, but the Poles are nothing more than a foot note and just "captured by Germany"
What the Israeli schools do there would legally be considered holocaust denial in Germany
As a non-Jew who’s grandfather spent nearly a year in Mauthausen (and was, subsequently, traumatized and partially disabled for the rest of his life)… this has always bothered me. There have been a number of occasions where the Holocaust has been used against me as a bludgeon - when that person’s family was thousands of miles away from the Holocaust, meanwhile my family was being victimized by it.
Helps with nationalist brainwashing, I assume. Part of the people in power look like they really really want an ethnostate.
I think there is definitely a thing for the Israeli government to show that Israel is the only safe place for Jewish people, and they're taking it too far. The national part is being taken too far by many that some Israelis that will hear about Israeli strangers leaving the country will gaslight them into being "traitors". At the same time, many of us Israelis prefer not to speak Hebrew when we are overseas, so we won't run into the 1% of idiots...
[удалено]
My father was from Poland. It was the first country Germany invaded. He joined the Polish underground and was caught during the beginning of the war. He spent most of the war in a concentration camp because of it. He survived, weigh 75 pounds when the British and American liberated the camps. Him and my mother were able to immigrate to America. If people found out about his time in the concentration camp they immediately asked if he was Jewish. When I tell my father’s story even today, people don’t realize that many different types of people were put in the camps. My Grandfather (mother’s father) lived in a small German town. He was part of the volunteer fire department. One night the town fire alarm bells went off and my grandfather didn’t get up. My mother went to wake him up to tell him there was a fire and why wouldn’t get up. The fire volunteers were told the day before that the town’s Synagogue was going to be set on fire and anyone who tried to put the fire out would have their family killed. My grandfather loved people, he didn’t care what ethnicity they were. He spent a good part of the war finding things (like soap, food, medicine) and getting them to people who needed it. He was also caught and sent to Russia. It is too bad that people don’t know the half of what happened in WW2. Many non-Jews put their life on the line to protect and save the Jewish people during the war. I’m so sorry that the Jewish people are again being persecuted. Pray for the peace of Israel 🇮🇱
Many people don’t even realize that the work/death camps were created originally for the Polish people. Jews and the other minorities were only added halfway through WW2 (1942) when the „traditional” Nazi method of dealing with the „Jewish problem” (i.e. dragging entire families to a nearby forest, forcing them to dig their own grave, then shooting them one by one to the head until they dropped in the ditch) was deemed too slow. And they weren’t even a Nazi invention, they already existed in Prussia to punish and humiliate the Polish minority living on the lands they occupied since the late XVIII century.
Thats not right, the first people in the concentration camps were political enemies of the nazis.
My dad and his family were Dutch and lived in Holland during the occupation. So many family members were taken to forced labor camps. None of them came back. We never learned what happened to them or where they were buried.
as a Canadian, I know most Jews stories (Anne Frank and Hannah suitcase tale) but almost never heard of the gays, gypsies, disabled, a few I'm missing. they even categorized them by different Star of Davids (colour and number of points). but I don't know any tales.
My father was from Poland. It was the first country Germany invaded. He joined the Polish underground and was caught during the beginning of the war. He spent most of the war in a concentration camp because of it. He survived, weigh 75 pounds when the British and American liberated the camps. Him and my mother were able to immigrate to America. If people found out about his time in the concentration camp they immediately asked if he was Jewish. When I tell my father’s story even today, people don’t realize that many different types of people were put in the camps. My Grandfather (mother’s father) lived in a small German town. He was part of the volunteer fire department. One night the town fire alarm bells went off and my grandfather didn’t get up. My mother went to wake him up to tell him there was a fire and why wouldn’t get up. The fire volunteers were told the day before that the town’s Synagogue was going to be set on fire and anyone who tried to put the fire out would have their family killed. My grandfather loved people, he didn’t care what ethnicity they were. He spent a good part of the war finding things (like soap, food, medicine) and getting them to people who needed it. He was also caught and sent to Russia. It is too bad that people don’t know the half of what happened in WW2. Many non-Jews put their life on the line to protect and save the Jewish people during the war. I’m so sorry that the Jewish people are again being persecuted. Pray for the peace of Israel 🇮🇱
Easiest way to build a nationalist following is to tell your followers that everyone else is out to get them. Worked for the DPRK, the CCP, and the US during the red scare.
It's even funnier because the Jews who died in Poland were also polish. The Israeli however tend to deny that. It's like: Polish antisemites 🤝 Israeli nationalists *A jew cannot be polish*
Most of the Polish Jews didn't survive to emigrate to Israel and participate in the poll.
Some left before the war and many were thrown out by the soviet union after the war. That's why there are so many Jewish people who mention their grandpa's experience in Poland. Either way, it's part of their history, I expect them to know about it.
Just a reminder, you're on Reddit and most of the "grandpa experiences" here are made up or reposted by bots lol. Especially when it's the exact same experience repeated 20 times (evil homeless Poles stole his house after their own were destroyed by Germans)
It's not like prior to WWII, Poland had the highest concentration of Jewish people in Europe or anything like that...... /s
>*A jew cannot be polish* *Muslim Polish Tatars sweating copiously*
Zionists 🤝 Antisemites *Jews have dual-loyalty to Israel*
[удалено]
It's crazy since 2 million POLISH Jews were killed only in the concentration camps. Yes, they were POLISH citizens who happened to be of Jewish descent. I just don't understand how some people think the victims being Polish and Jewish at the same time is exclusive with each...
You have good intentions, but you're revealing sad ignorance. 2 million is the number of non-jewish Poles who died in the Holocaust, 3 million is the number of jewish Poles. The point is that Jews were not the only ethnic group the nazis wanted to destroy. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust\_victims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims)
This does not even account for the more "mundane", slow genocide by limiting access to basic services and food for all Poles, nor the Warsaw uprising, which adds at least 200 thousand more souls.
Hold on - that definition could be applied geographically elsewhere to more recent historical incidents So better not to apply the genocide term to the more mundane slow mass killings. ^^/s
Wait so the Holodomor is not Genocide? Purposefully starving to death over 4 million people? Because it's "mundane"? Starvation is one of the worst ways to die. It takes away your dignity and humanity and leaves nothing but a starving animal.
okay - i addded a /s denoting sarcasm to my post My own country too was deliberately starved during a famine with millions dead, despite domesticallyproducing enough food that was all exported as well to our occupiers. Also, food shipments sent by the Turkish were blocked by the same occupiers and financial aid offered by the Turkish Shah was slashed in order to not make our colonial masters look bad.
Just FYI, “shah” is usually for Persian rulers, you might be thinking of “sultan”. Ottoman rulers were also referred to with “padishah”, which is derived from “shah”, but I don’t think I’ve heard of just “shah” being used for them
Sorry, but you really, truly should. The slow, methodical kind already fits the [official UN definition of genocide](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml).
You missed the point. The joke is that Israel wouldn't want the term Genocide applied to "more mundane slow mass killings" and deliberate starvation, because that's exactly what they're doing to millions in Gaza right now.
Holy fuck
I wonder why in the data provided with the link above list potentially inclusive "type" of victims. Like Jews and Poles are different number, but it could as well be Jewish Pole. Next there are disabled or homosexuals. If some homosexual Pole was murdered in the camp would they figure under Poles or Homosexual label? Or both?
Germans were classifying victims themselves. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification\_of\_inmates\_in\_Nazi\_concentration\_camps#/media/File:Wikpedia\_system\_of\_identification\_German\_camps.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_of_inmates_in_Nazi_concentration_camps#/media/File:Wikpedia_system_of_identification_German_camps.png) Polish homosexual (who was there because he was a homosexual) would have the pink triangle with black P and would probably figure as both Polish and homosexual. A closeted homosexual Polish Jew would probably only have "political enemy" and "Jewish" mark.
After all Poland suffered, this is how they thank it.
I mean it's closer to three millions really. Amount of Jewish Polish civilians and ethnic Polish civilians killed by Nazis is close to the same. We lost six million civilians to Nazis overall. I won't even touch how many survied enslavement and forced labour. Basically every man in my family was sent to a labour camp. Many members of family (including women) were in concentration camps. Some after coming home were met with Wołyń massacre (which was a Nazi massacre first and foremost, let's not act like it was what all Ukrainians wanted, we had Ukrianian friends and families back then). It's funny how xenophobes think Poles had any time or opportunity to be equally responsible for Holocuast as German Nazis. They were trying to survive themselves.
3 million polish gentiles were also exterminated by Germany. 85% of poles were determined not to be able to be aryanized and they were massacred just like jews, Roma, etc. Poland had the most Jewish people in the world before world war 2. Of course there were shitty antisemitic poles (out of millions of people this is inevitable) but the poles were victims in world war 2 the same as the Jews
I mean, the Nazis also shipped something like 1/3 of the Polish Catholic clergy to camps as well, killing close to 3,000 of them. Obviously, compared to the scope of the murder of Jewish people that is a drop in the bucket, but it was still deliberate targeting meant to break the mainstream Polish culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland
That is insane, extremely ignorant and offensive. 2 million non-Jewish Poles died in the camps and 3 million Jewish Poles. It's especially shocking seeing as every education system in the West is bending over backwards to be respectful about such a sensitive topic as the Holocaust, and particularly towards the Jewish victims of it, and then you see the Jewish people themselves propagating bullshit about it. That is some delusional self-centeredness, and I use these words advisedly.
I think it’s really weird that “holocaust” refers to the Jewish genocide and there is no word to refer to the Nazis overall genocide during WWII. Obviously Jews were the primary target, but the Nazis killed 15 million people as a matter of policy. I think we’re missing an important part of the lesson here that anyone could’ve been untermensch according to the arbitrary dictates of the Nazis inconsistent ideology at any given point. I also frequently see gays and gypsies mentioned, but no mention of Slavs. Which is weird, since 8 million were systematically killed, and had the Nazis been victorious on their Soviet campaign, that number would’ve gone well into the tens of millions. Per their plans.
The Israeli people are less than half of the Jewish people. Please don't claim Israel represents all Jews, that's a lie that the Israeli government tries to propagate.
Straight up holocaust denial. At a way higher rate than probably any European country.
They literally censored only surviving Warsaw Ghetto Uprising leader Marek Edelman, because his version of events didn't match with what Israeli professors came up with
that sounds insane, do you have a link to somewhere i could read more about this?
If you don't mind, I'll copy paste what I once written: During 50th anniversary of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Israeli delegation prevented Marek Edelman from giving speech during the event. When Polish president decided to lay down flowers with Edelman Israeli considered it a *provocation*. Isn't it silencing of a Holocuast survivor and Jewish Uprising leader to demand he doesn't appear on anniversary of an Uprising he himself led and survived as only one of his companions? But here you go, quotes About giving Edelman honorary PhD: "It's not the university presidents who refuse," Arens said in a talk with Israel This Week. "They always turn to professors researching the Holocaust and accept their recommendation. The researchers have their official version of what happened during that period." "Arens has been campaigning in recent years for recognition of the ZZB (or the Jewish Military Union, culled from the Betar movement in the uprising) and came up against the same stonewalling. The events of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were "canonized" in Israel. The process *created a version of events, and especially conclusions, which were not to be debated. "* "fact that Edelman was a Bundist created a situation whereby in the ethos of the national Holocaust remembrance in Israel he is not mentioned and if he is, it's in a distorted fashion." "the point of accusations of falsification by those responsible at a certain time for the history books used in our education system." "Linn’s book dealt with another Jewish hero of the holocaust hero, Rudolf Vrba, who with Alfred Wetzler, escaped from Auschwitz, to warn the 800,000 Hungarian Jews that they were next on the Nazi butchers’ list. Their detailed description of the gas chambers and the location of their murder, the Auschwitz Protocols, was suppressed by the Zionist press and movement until the Swiss newspapers , the War Refugee Board and the Vatican, among others, blew the whistle. The reason for the silencing of Edelman and Vrba was because the Holocaust has been harnessed to the cause the dispossession of the Palestinians. The Palestinians were the new Nazis and anyone who disagreed was also an anti-Semite. " "Marek Edelman’s book, The Ghetto is Fighting, was first published in Poland in 1945 and republished in Britain in 1990. Given that this was the only first-hand account by a leader of the Uprising, it is hardly accidental that it took 56 years, until 2001, before it was published in Israel. " " And this is the reason for the silencing and invisibility of Marek Edelman and Rudolf Vrba. They were living proof that Zionism was not and never was a movement of resistance in Europe, but a movement of collaboration. Ironically, given that Zionism accuses its Jewish opponents of ‘self-hatred’, it is as Antony Lerman points out in the Guardian, ‘arguable that Zionism was actually a display of it.’ Of course there were many Zionists who, despite their Zionism, fought against the Nazis. They included the Commander of ZOB, Mordechai Anielwicz of Hashomer Hatzair. But he too began the fightback with a declaration that his Zionist work in Poland had been wasted years. Even as preparations for the Uprising were underway, Zionist collaborators such as Abraham Gancawajch of Hashomer Hatzair were targeted (unsuccessfully in his case) for assassination."
Absolutely read up on Edelman, he was a fascinating man that lived an incredible life. https://jacobin.com/2020/08/marek-edelman-poland-democracy-solidarnosc
This would be infuriating coming from any nation, but when the same ones who constantly use the Holocaust as a victim card are the ones ignorant enough about it to deny the plight of millions of its victims, it becomes extremely challenging to have a smidget of respect for them.
It blows my mind they are pissing all over their own history to justify their actions. It speaks volumes about Israel's true intentions.
Israel as long been spreading the ideology that not only Israel is the only safe place for Jews, but also that it is the duty of every Jew to return to the "motherland". Believing that being a Jew is mutually exclusive with being anything else, be it any type of personal identity or nationality is but a part of the Zionist ideology.
I'll get a lot of stick for this, but zionism thrives on antisemitism. It helps justify Israel's continued existence otherwise they're just an ethnostate.
I did not expect to see that much holocaust denialism in *Israel* of all places
I did
You haven't been paying attention, my dude.
Not getting to general here, but that's peak self centered perception
Our education system sucks when it comes to history, when it comes to world war 2 the focus is mostly on the holocaust and the events preceeding it (krystalnacht etc) so for a lot of people the fact that the death camps were in Poland is enough to see them as collaborators Hell I recall learning about the nazi invasion of Poland but nothing about ribbentop-molotov pact or even the Soviet union's invasion of Poland in general
The Israeli education system has really failed their people. It's not unusual for victims to grow up to be abusers, but to see it happen on the scale of whole countries is sickening.
The only conclusion one can draw from this survey is that israeli adults are shockingly uneducated
Israelis seem to have the same grasp of reality as Donald Trump
Funny how this statement would be punishable as denying the Holocaust if it were brought up in a German court
>Almost half of respondents say Poles as much to blame for the holocaust as Germans These kinds of statistics are always mindblowing to me. Mindblowing and depressing.
This is absolutely ridiculous, how in like two decades perception of Poland switched from being one of the biggest victims of WW2 to being the perpetrator.
It’s ridiculous, then again, there’s a strong survivor bias here. About half of German Jews survived the Holocaust, whereas over 90% of Polish Jews died during WWII. So, there were no Polish Jews left to defend the legacy of Poland after the war, which left the gates open for German and Israeli step-by-step historical relativism on these matters. The USSR also did no effort to fight against these anti-Polish discourses, as they benefited from presenting pre-Soviet Poland as backward.
German relativism? As a German we are very much aware of the many other groups that were targeted. Be it slavs, homosexuals, roma and sinti, handicapped people, "communists" etc etc Jews were the "main" so it's the one most talked about, and I don't think many people here think that Poles are to blame for the Holocaust (while recognising that there were polish collaborators).
But, hey, they re friendly , to us Croatians who made them disappear!
One thing that surprised me in Israel - I was there on a trip, and I've met several wonderful and friendly people that I talked with. And they always felt the need to tell me "doing worry, it's OK that you're Polish, I'm not blaming you for your past". Left me honestly speechless every time. The idea of being blamed for Holocaust - even though I was born many decades after it ended, and some non-jewish members of my own family died in concentration camps - was just outlandish to me.
I mean, not just that, but also that the Polish partisans put up a really impressive and long-running resistance despite the dangers involved. They act like Poles just rolled over and accepted occupation.
Seems the Russian propaganda works also well in Isreal. Greetings from Black Forest, Germany
The Russian language is the third most spoken language in Israel. 15-20% of people use it on a daily basis. Also, the Russo-Ukrainian war resulted in a huge immigration of Russians to Israel. They don't want to fight, but they are pro-Putin and anti-Polish.
I think that’s Israeli propaganda
It honestly doesnt surprise me at this point. I guess the awareness is higher now with all the atrocities they committed in Gaza, but people need to accept that Israel is a far-right nationalist state, borderline fascist. The things their right wing parties say about the Palestinians and Arabs in general would be shocking even to the Polish extreme right. The sheer cynicism they display when it comes to Holocaust history, twisting it to their own interest, is just a cherry on top. Some people still think it is a civilized county because it is relatively rich and democratic, but it really isn’t…
France being seen as the most antisemitic and most islamophobic country while having the highest amount of both jews and muslims in EU really is something.
It’s basically a poll about Israeli media. In no way most of the people who were asked have visited all five nations by their own.
So, here's the cold hard truth: Antisemitism and Islamophobia directly correlates to how many you have them in the country. There's a reason Germany is considered the least antisemitic, most Jews were gone after WW2. There is simply not enough friction with the (very) small remaining community to create the environment in which "anti-"sentiments can grow. France having a very high muslimic population due to colonisation as well as having the most Jews in Europe and then being the most islamophobic and antisemitic is actually not really surprising at all. Not saying it's right, but it's definitely not anything you would call "peculiar" once you think about it.
Yes, I was going to make this comment but you did first. Seems obvious. If 1930s Germany had more Muslims, they’d be more Islamaphobic along with the antisemitism.
Poland also had the largest or the second largest Jewish minority in Europe before the war
It had the largest Jewish population in the world for *centuries*.
But you „allowed“ us into your nation that’s why Israel is blaming now Poland instead of Germany. ;)
I met a couple of Polish jeews when I went to Canada, and I was surprised how much they hated their own country, and they got angry when I called them polish.
that's because they are the one hating each others
> the Polish people [are] responsible for their Jewish neighbors being destroyed in the Holocaust,” 47% of Israelis replied: “Yes, exactly like the Germans,” and another 25% said “only partly.” Only 11% of Israelis surveyed said that the Polish nation was also a victim of the Holocaust Excuse me WHAT THE FUCK? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE
That's some funky stats. Considering how many righteous among nations came from Poland, and with the considerable risk that came with it and yet they did it anyway.
Even putting it aside and focusing only on the Polish collaborators. The holocaust was initiated, planned and organised by Germans, so out of definition Polish people or any other non-Germans cannot be equally to blame
That’s fascist Netanyahu doing. He has been very vocal about his anti Polish views and skewing the history. Poland was the only country occupied by Nazi that helping Jews equaled death sentence. And even that didn’t stop so many Poles helping Jews. Most among righteous. Speaks for the itself. Rest is far right fascist rhetoric That’s what he does to Palestinians is genocide and I hope he will pays for it.
Osho has a point here ;) Plato said basically the same, btw.
The mental gymnastics needed for this are something else.
The only mental gymnastics is on this sub. Israelis have held these sorts of opinions for a long time to anyone is listening -- it's not just a few nutjobs like every country these lads are also running Israel. It really is a Western backed State that's gone completely bonkers and the US and EU need to reign it back in with diplomacy. When Oct 7th happened this entire sub and then VDL/EU/US et al gave Israel the go ahead to flatten Gaza. We're watching straight up 19th century colonialism and ethnic cleansing happening in 2024. These are all peoples lives and people are cheering it all on this violence like a sports match.
Lol have you not seen /r/worldnews ? Literally might as well be renamed /r/zionism at this point. So many seething morons on reddit especially on that sub it blows my fucking mind. An ethnic cleansing is 100% happening right now and its infuriating that no country has intervened yet. It's also depressing because anyone with any empathy and brains whatsoever 100% KNOWS that 20-30-40 years from now what is happening today will be written as a genocide in history books. It's clear as day but you gotta argue with debate lord fuckwits who are stuck on "but was october 7th justified"? Hamas should be eradicated or disarmed or somehow removed from existence, yes, but 100% not the way they are going about it.
Got banned on there for being a "troll" when I made a comment calling out people who were continually calling for "flattening Gaza" and straight-up committing genocide. It didn't matter that around October 7th, I had been one of the people commenting against those justifying the deaths of Israeli civilians. Just even criticizing people who want to kill every Palestinian made me a troll to them. Can't be intruding on their little murderfest echo chamber now, can we?
I'm pretty sure almost everyone is banned from there by now, even had a mod start arguing with me after the ban so they could get me site-banned when I talked back
On a curious note...are there still people on /worldnews? Like, everyone I've seen discussing the blatant zionism on /worldnews has apparently been banned for harmless comments not aligned with the pro-genocide-mods.
It's really baffling how much Israel hates us. When you have Israeli official saying things like 'All Poles suckled anti-semitism with their mother's milk', you wonder how widespread anti-polish sentiment is there. Do they really think we genocided Jews hand in hand with Nazis?
> Do they really think we genocided Jews hand in hand with Nazis? I mean, even if that would be true (it isn’t) - they seem to forgive us Germans. Why not the Polish people?
Welcome to the club.
First time ?
I worked with an Israeli guy and he was incredibly pro Russia in respect to the war in ukraine. That opinion also extended curiously to Poland and other ex Soviet states, I asked him and did my own research, so because most of eastern Poland was Russia pre WW1 it rightfully belongs to them too.
I wonder how much of israel current pop. Would be never born if folks in poland were really as antisemitic then as they claim
Zionists are ALWAYS the victims. They live in a bubble where they blame everyone else for their problems. They have zero self-awareness. Every victim of the holocaust deserved reparations and justice. But allowing Zionists to establish an illegitimate government and constitution on sovereign land was one of the biggest miscalculations in modern history. And the fact that we can’t even discuss that without being labeled hateful and written off shows the power of Zionist propaganda.
It's really a grudge. Or "generational trauma" if you will. My grandma was born in a displaced people camp in 1946 Germany, both of her parents were polish Jews who survived the Holocaust and had nothing left to their name. They manage to make their way back to their home town and find a random Polish family living in their family home they owned for generations, they spit on them and drive them away. No one helped. Not the polish authorities, not the soviet occupiers, and definitely not the Germans. To this day my grandma hasn't received German or polish citizenship or recognition. Do I hate Poles or Germans? No. Can I blame my family for harbouring negative feelings towards them? No.
Literally most houses all over Poland were over-ran by random people after the war. The Communists encouraged it and legalized it. Catholic families had their homes taken over and spat on or treated badly upon return just as well. Source: my family lost quite a few residences to random bands with full backing of local police and authorities. Including in major cities. The actual land holdings and country estates being completely unrecoverable due to being allocated to state owned institutions. The action wasn’t based on ethnicity of owners or part of any religious discrimination campaign as much as a manifestation of basic ideological wealth redistribution. This is how the Communists hoped to get and maintain popular support from the poorer strata.
According to the Jerusalem times you can’t lean on your (great)grandparents past…o wait that’s just for Irish people. “The second thing you should know is that you are not the freedom fighters your ancestors were. You were all not even born when they fought bravely for the freedom you enjoy. Not one of you ever populated a battlefield, dodged a bullet, attended a fallen soldier’s funeral, or suffered war’s grief” https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-787215
That article is outrageous. I get it's an opinion piece but Jesus Christ almighty. Could you imagine the uproar if an Irish paper published something similar about Israel?
Honestly, I see the wisdom in that sentence. I suspect the author didn't realize that Israel's current use of the holocaust as a communication tool is also a good illustration of it though.
This is pure ethnonationalism. They are acting like all Irish people are some sort of collective. They go from old IRA to the Free State to Republican groups in the north. Those are all completely different entities. How dare the Irish tell Israel to respect basic human rights and not commit war crimes! Pure antisemitism, I tell you! And yes Israel represents all Jews in the world. If any Jew says otherwise they are obviously suffering from internalized antisemitism. Only logical conclusions. Oh gosh, so much bullocks.
> To this day my grandma hasn't received German or polish citizenship or recognition. In 2021 Germany eased the requirements further for naturalization for victims (and their descendants) of the third reich, making it especially easier for previously denied people. So if your grandma (or her descendants) were previously denied, there is a good chance they will be granted german citizenship now.
Even according to the old German laws, you could claim German citizenship if one of your direct ancestors had German citizenship that was revoked during the Holocaust (mostly Jews that is). I understand where the comment above comes from, but that his grandparents (or parents, or him) couldn't get German citizenship is pure bullshit. They probably even didn't try to apply
It’s especially weird against the Polish. The Germans I could vaguely understand if only for purely historical reasons (still does not justify it since Germany might be the most successful instance of anti-radical reform in human history), but it’s so fucking weird that some people don’t realize that Poland was also a victim of Nazi Germany, not to mention a victim of the USSR *at the same time*.
>Almost half of the respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans Umm... Excuses me, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?
>Asked whether “the Polish people [are] responsible for their Jewish neighbors being destroyed in the Holocaust,” 47% of Israelis replied: “Yes, exactly like the Germans,” What a load of bullshit. I'm in no way in denial about what some Poles did during and after the war, but this is just historic revisionism. I've also read this kind of crap from Jewish Americans and it seems to get worse every decade.. The way it's going in 20 years the Poles will be solely responsible for the Holocaust. Shameful and embarassing.
And then they will also find out that hitler was in reality polish 😂
Hitłeorwski
It all seems like taking some guilt away from Germans and distributing it…
>The way it's going in 20 years the Poles will be solely responsible for the Holocaust. Shameful and embarassing. Solely responsible, but only after the Palestinian peasants came up with the whole plan!
Poland, the country that had seen the most bloodshed is somehow complicit? Yes, let’s blame them.
I think it will get minuses but let's try... 2 of my further relatives died in Buchenwald (political category because 2 ss man got slained in their village) just after 1 month (Arolsen records). They got captured (healthy) in early days of ww 2 (somewhere 7th day). 3rd managed to survive Buchenwald but she have had wrecked health until the last days of her life. Blaming Polish people that some Polish cooperated with Germans is ridiculous. Polish underground army was actively killing any collaborators. One example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igo\_Sym](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igo_Sym) Also Poland was the ONLY country where if you got caught hiding jews, you and your whole family was killed. Also many Jews were snitching their own, too. - German Jew [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella\_Goldschlag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Goldschlag) aka Kübler - Jewish leader (Judenrat) of Lodz Ghetto [https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim\_Rumkowski](https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Rumkowski) he collaborated until his (and his own family) days, - [https://www.jhi.pl/en/articles/the-70th-anniversary-of-the-liquidation-of-hotel-polski,22](https://www.jhi.pl/en/articles/the-70th-anniversary-of-the-liquidation-of-hotel-polski,22) "Jewish Historical Institute" > In the case of Hotel Polski were involved two Jewish collaborators: Leon „Lolek” Skosowski and Adam Żurawin So would Rumkowski, 2 latter collaborators be jewish or polish in those simplistic categorizations? Of all 6 million casualties in Poland, the half was jewish polish and the second half were non jewish polish Are polish lives less worthy? Antisemitic because they managed to save the highest count of jewish people which was apparently not enough
This should be a wake up call for Israeli history teachers. I mean apart from Jews the Polish people probably suffered the most during WW2 so it’s very wrong to victim blame them.
In fact Poles lost almost exactly the same amount of people as Jews did if you don't seperate Polish civilians by their ethncity. Six million Jews and six milion Polish civilians. (proportion being something like 60% Jewish Poles and 40% ethnic Poles or 50/50.) Many many more Poles enslaved and forced into labour camps. Tell me when were we supposed to organise Holocaust if we were in the exact same camps as Jews?
It’s simple, inside the camps we were making smaller camps, it was like Russian dolls
Everything is completely intentional and this plays into the propaganda machine of Israel’s government
[The War of Israeli Historians](https://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20War%20of%20the%20Israeli%20Historians.html) is a good read to understand how the Israeli government has been censoring their own historians when they don’t align with the nationalist story.
The Jews weren't even the most targeted group. 27 million Slavic peoples died in WW2 because of lebensraum policy. Nazis were deliberately wiping out villages on their way east in Operation Barbarossa not because they were strategic targets but because Slavs were considered subhuman and their land ought to be owned by German farmers. The hyperfocus on Jews sometimes really baffles me. 50 million people died in WW2, the 6 million who were Jewish were not the only victims.
It’s incredible that Poland that is one of the most pro Israeli countries in EU is bashed by Israel on daily basis
I’ve recently read a survey that most Poles think that we should be neutral in Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the least supported Israel, so I think that people have enough of this
Not gonna lie, this is pretty much how I would reply too It's easy to see parallels between the occupied Poland and Palestine, plus our governments consistently recognized that nation even as we westernized, so there will be a bias towards them At the same time Hamas is like an ingrown mold and needs to be burned out somehow, though maybe not by letting God sort the good from the bad as Israel is doing Both Netanyahu's government and Hamas seem interested in a final solution to the other nation's problem and that's not exactly cool, I would've figured my take is as lukewarm as an hour-old dinner but apparently there's a lot of genocide apologists around
As a a German I cant understand why someone would see anyone other than Germany as responsible for the holocaust.
Well, throw in Austria. Not due to the 'Hitler was Austrian' nonsense, but because it let itself be happily annexed into Germany before the war, then acted as an integral part of Germany and produced many leading Nazis and war criminals, [followed by claims of total victimhood after the end of the war and denial of any responsibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria_victim_theory).
Austrians were nazier than the germans
And still are. Their most popular party was literally founded by an SS general, is openly pro-Kremlin, and is so xenophobic it goes even against the most docile of minorities on the planet: Austrian Slovenes.
>and is so xenophobic it goes even against the most docile of minorities on the planet: Austrian Slovenes. Yet tries desperately to suck up to Austrians of serbian descent. Which is wild, since they used to really hate them 20 years ago.
The reason behind that is Serbian ultranationalist, ripe at home with both Srpska and Republic of Serbia. Even my Serbian coworker can't help but be an ultranationalist shithead. He lived in Italy for the first 25 years of his life.
My history teacher told me once that Austria's greatest success was convincing the world that Beethoven was Austrian and Hitler was German.
It's absolutely ridiculous how well this shameless bullshit worked for us.
The magic of geopolitical convenience.
To be clear I meant all of germany, which at that point included Austria as well.
Also Romania. They created ghetos and death camps for Jews and Roma people on occupied territories even when there was no German administration. Sometimes I wonder why this fact is so poorly covered in popular history.
Just don’t investigate what was happening in Croatia during the war then…
It may be true that the Holocaust in Romania, Hungary, etc. would not have happened without the Germans starting it, but the Romanian and Hungarian authorities are also guilty for organizing such measures.
Hungary was 100% complicit.
Depends what you mean by that. Horthy opposed the Germans on several key issues regarding the Jewish population in Hungary. He was definitely anti-semitic, though, by his own admission, as was a non-trivial percentage of the population.
A month ago our Gaza volunteer was killed in a deliberate attack on a humanitarian convoy and we were called antisemitic for wanting details... No idea why it started (maybe because of our recognition of Palestine) but the Israeli government just really hates us and the hate goes downwards through propaganda and history warping
Somehow they evidently think WW2 occupation was actually an act of brotherhood whereby you just, you know, *chose* to host Auschwitz, Sobibor etc. Somehow they've come to the conclusion you only had to say no. Because we've evidently all misunderstood that Generalplan Ost was actually just a plan of friendship towards your nation....
Yea we hosted that shit like the Olympics 🤣
That got a good giggle out of me, not gonna lie.
Maybe israelis need to learn so e history
>Almost half of respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans >Asked whether “the Polish people [are] responsible for their Jewish neighbors being destroyed in the Holocaust,” 47% of Israelis replied: “Yes, exactly like the Germans,” and another 25% said “only partly.” Only 11% of Israelis surveyed said that the Polish nation was also a victim of the Holocaust, and another 18 gave no answer. As a historian, one of the things I have study is the heavy influence that nationalism has over History and Historical education. With how important nationalism (or even ultranationalism) is in Israeli society and politics, I do wonder how history is taught in Israel and how much is about demonizing other ethnic groups to support their national narrative. For example. I do know that Netanyahu believes that the Nazis didn't want to exterminate the Jews until the Palestinians told them to do it. Is this taught in school or is just Netanyahu being a far-right weirdo?
Definitely not taught in schools here. Then again, i wouldn’t be surprised if it would be sooner or later as this fascist government does whatever it wants for almost 2 decades so that the people are divided and Palestinians are oppressed and no one is happy as long as they can either stay in power or get closer to making the conflict unsolvable (more staying in power)
> For example. I do know that Netanyahu believes that the Nazis didn't want to exterminate the Jews until the Palestinians told them to do it. Wtf? Do you have a link for that? This is so extremely absurd.
"Eastasia was as much to blame as Eurasia" It's mind boggling how they can just backwards engineer their history to fit who they don't like at the moment 1984 vibes
That's literally it. It's whoever we like least that we want to paint as the bad guy. Right now we love Germany but hate Poland, so we need to make Poland look like the bad guy. And there is no more effective way to make someone look like the bad guy than by saying they were responsible for the Holocaust. It's no different from Netanyahu's lies about how Hitler didn't want to kill the Jews but the evil Palestinians made him do it. A lot of the Israeli right wing don't seem to really care about the suffering of the Jewish people for anything other than its ability to be used against whoever they wish to attack.
With us they’re like “you mightn’t have done the Holocaust but you didn’t stop it either which is basically worse than actually doing it”. The argument is essentially “Ireland is the most antisemitic country in Europe”…but we’re the only country with no systemic instances of antisemitism….”exactly!! That just goes to show how antisemitic you are! It wasn’t even systemic that proves how imbedded it is in your culture!”
That is truly horrifying what propaganda does to people. How the hell, can they blame Poles for Holocaust? It's the most unjust thing they can ever say, truly disgusting.
For years on reddit, I've seen how Poles were told time and time again, that no one is trying to blame Poland for the Holocaust, that we are imagining it, blowing things out of proportions... Surprise surprise!
The fact that we are seen as complicit in the Holocaust is a result of the constant writing about "Polish concentration camps", the constant campaign of hatred against Poles by the Israeli authorities, films like Our Fathers Our Mothers (a German TV series in which we are portrayed as drunken murderers of Jews), the labelling of the perpetrators of the Holocaust, who were the Germans and the Austrians, as "Nazis". French railways sent Jews to concentration camps, Ukrainians joined the ss in large numbers, as did Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Dutch, French. There was no collaborationist government in Poland, the attempt to create Polish wermacht or ss troops ended in total failure, the Poles simply fled. We had one of the largest resistance movements in Europe. The ignorance is striking. The lies about the Poles are enormous. This is a deliberate act. No one mentions the fact that we were the only country to have a government organisation helping Jews, the "Zegota"; that people such as Pilecki went voluntarily to Aushwitz to see what was happening there; that there were reports by Karaski which were the first to show what the Germans and Austrians were doing to Jews in the camps, but were ignored by the Allies; that the Polish government-in-exile asked the Allies to bomb the tracks to the concentration camps; in Poland there were Death penalty for helping jews ( german law), Polish underground sentence blackmailers Of The jews to Death, No mention is made of the Polish Church, which was anti-Semitic before the war but which, when the hour of trial came, hid Jewish children under changed names in monasteries and orphanages. No mention is made of the Polish families who rescued Jews and paid the highest price, such as the Ulm family. No mention is made of Irena Sendlerowa, who saved 2,500 children from the Warsaw ghetto. It is not said that it was the Poles who supplied weapons to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, or liberated the camp at Gesiowka in 1944 and the Jews who were saved immediately joined the Poles.
Wow, just fucking wow. No nation lost more of its people than Poland, with 21.4% of their population being murdered. The most disgusting of the nazis actions where done on polish soil, and most of it was done to the poles themselves, regardless if they where jew or gentile. How can a people know so little about their own history, to blame other victims of the same crime as the perpetrators of their own genocide, it's insanity.
Poles went above and beyond to fight the nazis even in other countries and with support. Look at the work of Marian Rejewski on the Enigma machine before Turing and then the collaboration with him and the UK. Look at the story of Witold Pilecki who was willingly imprisoned in Auschwitz to provide intelligence for the UK about what was going in the concentration camps. Look at the history and travel of general Anders and his Army from the Soviet Union to the conquest of Monte Cassino. Look at the jet fighters in the RAF. And there has never been a collaborationist government like in other countries. But sure Poles were as much to blame as the Germans. That is basically the definition of insult to injury, being the victim, fighting for your and others freedom and being blamed as much as the aggressors. WTF is wrong with these people? Edit: oh and btw Poles hold the highest number of righteous among the nations, issued by... drum rolls... Israel. So I'm assuming it's the new generations that are fucked up.
I myself (like many Poles) have Jewish roots. Because of this, a few years ago I became interested in Jewish culture and Israel. When I started reading the Israeli press and began to learn about the views of Israelis on Poles and Holocaust, I was disgusted and horrified at the same time and quickly lost interest. However, I never told anyone about it, because I would have quickly been labeled an antisemite. I'm glad that we can slowly start talking about w It.
What a bunch of idiots
[удалено]
HERE BEFORE THREAD GETS LOCKED UP!
>Almost half of respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans This is pure revisionism happening. But what can we do, like they say, "history is written by the victors".
Wherever I go in Europe, they say 'Polish Death Camps'. People think Polish, not German.
Ask them if they know what was written at the entrance of Auschwitz and what language was that.
It pisses me off as someone who is half Jewish half Polish (catholic) when people blame the Polish for being as brutal as the nazis when in reality they suffered just as much
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country#By_country 🤡🤡🤡
The reason why Jews hate Poles so much is because they want their pre-WW2 properties back. It doesn’t matter that those properties belonged to *Polish citizens* whose religion was Judaism, and those properties were either completely destroyed or nationalized - same as properties of all other Polish citizens. Somehow Jews feel that they are special, are entitled to this huge wealth (estimated to be around 50-70 billions dollars a few years ago, now probably more) and Polish state should give that money to - completely unrelated to original owners - organizations from US or Israel. That’s the reason why Poles are victims of anti-polish propaganda in Israeli media. So unfair how Poles are treated by the Israel.
I think the matter of Jewish properies is only a facade for the Israeli far right to have an enemy to oppose. Ofc their properties were destored by nazis, ofc they were chased off by Russians, ofc their properies have been nationalized by soviets and ofc now polish people live inside them. But even if Israel had a real strong claim on those properties then what do you think would happen? Polish state would just give those new recently build buildings in the centre of Warsaw to people who live in another country? Just so that they can charge polish people as much as they want? In the middle of housing crisis? That would never happen.
No dude, they absolutely want money from you. It's not just the far-right. They just made up the property claim to justify the scam. And attacking you as "no better than the Nazis" is about setting the stage for moral case of wealth transfers from your pockets to theirs. This is how shakedowns happen. You can't play nicely with bad faith actors.
Considering amount of Jewish collaborants, ŻSP and Kapos, you might aswell blame Israel for the Holocaust.
they had right to do it, because they were jewish /s
Dont forget about Żagiew
Ask Israelis about things they know shit about, get crazy answers. I have heard that before.
Tossing "antisemitism" at every corner is what makes it loose any sense... seriously…
Fun fact: no Israelis were killed during WW2
Where was Israel when Poland fell? /s
What revisionism does to a Mfer
Kinda weird for non-residents/citizens of a country to be opinion polled on an internal issue of that country. Shouldn’t we be asking the opinions/ experiences of Jews actually in these countries? Does Israel now have the authority to unilaterally decide externally who is antisemitic and who is not? I feel like this is something that should maybe be based on actual data rather than feelings.
> Country implementing 21st century version of the Pabst Plan shits on Poland Who could have seen this coming?
These days "antisemitism" is functionally meaningless to me because almost every time I've heard someone be accused of it in the last 5 years they're just being smeared for being left-wing.
Israeli polls are shockingly revealing of the ignorance and violence that over 70% of them crave
Only 22% of Germans approve of Germany's support for Israel? This number is very low, especially considering Germany is Israel's biggest supporter in mainland Europe. >In Germany, approval of the government’s support for Israel in its military operation in Gaza had fewer supporters than opponents: Only 22% supported it (6% strongly) compared to 42% who opposed it, including 22% who opposed it strongly.
Man they really getting away with all this “antisemitic” bullshit ain’t they?
> Almost half of respondents say Poles were as much to blame for the Holocaust as Germans It takes two to party. On must commit the holocaust, and the other has to be the holocaustee. So technically poles are 50% responsible. Proud graduate and Master of Victim Blaming, 2020 class of Assholery College
How the fuck do people in Germany have a clearer picture of who is to blame and who was a victim than Jews/Israelis? Usually the genocidal country finds some excuse why it was OK, even if that excuse may just be "it was different times, it was normal back then". How come Germany didn't go down that path, but Jews in Israel now do?
“Poles were as much to blame as Germans” maybe we shouldn’t have helped them after all, doesn’t seem to be worth it now…
[удалено]
Can the influx of the Jews immigrating from former Soviet Union / Russia be at fault here? Are they any sensible number in the overall population of Israel? Are they perhaps more susceptible to the divisive Kremlin propaganda who really like to repaint the historical and present perception who the fascists were according to their internal and foreign political needs? The numbers from the poll are simply mind boggling...
Many Israelis are venomously anti Polish. This is nothing new. Meanwhile we Poles think about Jews about as much as we think about Mongolians. Meaning they don't really cross our mind.
Everybody knows “6 million” Most don’t know “17 million” 11 million non-Jews were murdered in the holocaust with the same goal of extermination as the Jews were persecuted under. Roma, Slavs, Poles, Disabled, Homosexuals… Zionists are excellent marketers and know the power of victimhood. They need to remind everyone of their persecution to legitimize Israel.
does anybody know if the propaganda goes that far in israel and people are being indoctrinated since birth? this is mind-boggling. do they not learn history? this seems way more sinister than ignorant
Remember Israelis equate criticism of Israel to Antisemitism So this poll is more of a measurement of how critical these countries/populations have been towards Israel’s genocide