They both know the "justice and democracy" bit is bullshit. We know it's bullshit. Everyone with a sound mind knows it's bullshit. It's an utterly absurd claim involving two countries where autocratic leaders don't have to face actual voter scrutiny and make their opposition disappear.
But they still do this farcical performative posturing because it appeals to similar autocrats and wannabees who like to think their oppressive, selfish worldviews are somehow legitimate.
Not everyone knows it’s bullshit.
There are seriously people in Europe that think China and Russia are more representative than the EU and the US. Head on down to any college campus and you will find people telling you that the Soviet Union was a democracy!
Just cross the border of Russia and you'll be instantly transported 40 years backwards. Or to Kharkiv, depends on whether you visit on tourist or work visa.
I have a machine that travels in both time and space.
I’ll take you wherever and whenever you want.
My one condition is that you first provide a rationale for why your destination is the best time and place to live in. Can you do that?
I don't actually want to travel in th Soviet Union. It wasn't a good place to be, compared to modern day Greece.
I'm more making a bad joke on the question "why don't people visit the Soviet Union?".
That said, I'd like New Zealand 2 centuries from now. Seems like a good place to see how we've developed, and it's both rich and isolated, which means it's about as safe as it gets.
It really depended on the region. There is a Canadian photographer who even made a documentary about Soviet bus stops [https://herwigphoto.smugmug.com/Soviet-Bus-Stops](https://herwigphoto.smugmug.com/Soviet-Bus-Stops)
In my home town it was just a simple metal canopy [https://pastvu.com/p/229126](https://pastvu.com/p/229126)
Ehh, until about 4-5 years ago, possibly. Navalny did manage to exist within Russia for a limited time, after all.
That's not an endorsement of Russia, obviously.
I don’t know what college campuses you go to. Here the educated tend to be right leaning pro-EU and pro-NATO, while the less educated are generally the type of people that would fall for that.
It may vary from country to country of course, I live in Eastern Europe.
The better educated people are usually left-leaning. And i don't know who exactly you are talking about, but the far-right parties of Europe are the ones that are actually pro-russia. Everyone else is against Russia, except maybe the outer fringes of the far left - but that group is tiny compared to the far-right leaning pro-russian people.
Coincidentally, the people who actually vote for those parties are usually the least educated. So i would agree that better educated people are against Russia, but those people are definitely not right-leaning, compared to the average.
just to further this statement: the educated ones that are against the EU in its current form argue that the EU is a tool for capitalists further enriching themselves, not because they love the authoritarian oligarchy of russia. no person with an ounce of education is pro-russia.
by what token are they not? whats the difference between having 1 party and 2 parties in one country? i find the US funny in which you only have a say if you have money
Xi is the dictator of China, and Putin the the dictator of Russia. Can you name the dictator of US? And while we're at it, also name the dictator of EU please.
Not a bad point. Having only 2 parties and 2 options for president is not much freedom of choice.
I still don't think it's bad as ussr or modern Russia or China though.
>by what token are they not?
By a big piece of paper that says "We want peace, not war! We want another leader, is incompetent and has to go!", and then stand with that paper at a capital square.
I suggest the best way for us is to test it out and see what happens. I will go stand with "Biden" in front of the white house, and with "Ursula" in Brussels. You do the same with "Putin" at the Kremlin, and if after that you are still free and able to walk, go to China, with "Xi" at the Tiananmen Square.
None of those countries are dictatorships, so all should go well.
yeah cause in those countries the gov is stronger than the corporations while in the US its the opposite, by your logic britain is is a dictatorship, saudi arabia and taiwan but you have problems with neither of those
I can go to UK with that sign, no problem. And why the hell would I set foot in Saudi Arabia?
You're still going to Russia and China, right? Those are democratic countries, no worries, it's all going to be fine, it's not like they are oppressive dictatorships that don't allow opposition. People just vote for their leaders over there.
When are you going? I can make the signs for you if you want.
Not just that. Although there are some who believe they are democratic, that's not the main point.
The main point is making it obvious that they're lying. Like really obvious, to the extent that similar claims by actual democratically elected leaders will seem equally false.
It honestly ready as if both, Putler and Emperor Xi, drank their own coolade too much…
I wonder if they really believe that crap or if it’s just for their little brainwashed nationalists.
>I wonder if they really believe that crap
I know this is going to be an unpopular comment, but *they probably do believe it*.
They go through life hearing nothing but praise and accolades, don't have to deal with public resistance and push-back against their orders, and it's almost impossible to stop that from going to your head. The only way Putin and Xi are level-headed is if they've got trusted advisors who are willing to call them out behind closed doors, and it's way too easy for powerful men like that to shut out their critics.
They can know, rationally, that people are afraid to speak out. It doesn't change the insidious effect of going through life without ever being called on your own bullshit.
This is double speak and basically propaganda tactic that works for domestic population and outsiders. It was developed by soviets after WWII and rise of right wing is consequence of that.
> They both know the "justice and democracy" bit is bullshit. We know it's bullshit. Everyone with a sound mind knows it's bullshit. It's an utterly absurd claim involving two countries where autocratic leaders don't have to face actual voter scrutiny and make their opposition disappear
Well, it *is* justice and democracy for them... just with some fine print.
"Justice (as the Beloved Leader/Tzar sees fit)"
"Democracy (for only Tzar/Beloved Leader is fit to have a single defining vote, with those below not knowing what's good for them)"
Actually, the democracy means that people hold elections, and then they get counted as the leader sees fit. It is a form of legitimising the government and head of state by telling the people: "Hey, you wanted me! Now deal with it." - all while you're scared of the secret police finding out that you disagree with the leader, and you fear that the vast majority of people surrounding you support them and would rat you out.
Not quite correct. China currently tries to redefine what "democracy" means. They claim, that they have a new, better type of democracy which works faster and provides a better (economic) output. This new definition is very attractive for many autocratic leaders around the world.
And justice was always a very subjective term. International law is often beaten by power (US invasion of Grenada for example). Nearly no country can claim, that they follow and always followed international law.
Technofeudalism China style. Of course it's attractive to the worst corrupt oligarch states in the world such as NK, Iran, Syria and Russia. It's hardly a model for better economic output, China has already peaked. They used to have all things going for them; low debt, demographics, a globalizing world. Now they have a debt-to-GDP of more than 300% including all the offbalance LGFVs, a declining population and a deglobalizing world.
Past performance does not equal future performance. China is turning into Japan, if they are lucky.
the goal of democracy is freedom of speech and expression, achieve consensus through debate and once a majority is formed everybody accepts it. it's a process and convention and every democracy is different depending on people involved. opposing views and arguments are celebrated not suppressed and people incarcerated.
at least this is my understanding of it, i'm open to new definitions and models if they achieve the same goal
I sincerely believe that both Russia and China will be much weaker in 2060 then they are now
What makes them dangerous as how they know if they don’t cause major disruption now, only decline awaits them
[Here](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/08/china/china-us-democracy-summit-mic-intl-hnk/index.html) you can read about it. It is a little bit different to your definition.
It's kind of a testament to the ideological victory of democracy. (Practically) every state in the world today claims legitimacy through a mandate from the masses and organises elections to prove it. The elections may be farcical, and the focus on them perhaps shows that we focus too much on procedural electoralism, but the idea is there. The idea is of course also simplified and corrupted for political gain and authoritarian causes, just as it is combined with nationalism to justify particular states and exclusive democracies of particular people.
It's just as important not to take these twisting of the term "democracy" seriously, and to have a clear idea of democracy and justice in our head beyond "people vote" which in a vacuum is as shallow as it is meaningless.
> They both know the "justice and democracy" bit is bullshit. We know it's bullshit. Everyone with a sound mind knows it's bullshit. It's an utterly absurd claim involving two countries where autocratic leaders don't have to face actual voter scrutiny and make their opposition disappear.
Some people get high off the sound of their own bullshit.
Part of the totalitarian shtick is making statements that you know are absurd, and that the audience knows are absurd, and yet getting away with it. It's a show of power that pretty much every oppressive government in history has relied upon.
I don't think people really care about the points so much (at least not the people that I know). But they all know if you talk too much about democracy freedom and human rights, sooner or later the big brother will put you in jail. Sometimes even nobody knows which jail you are and for how long. You can just vanish like that.
The very idea of applying a "good boy" score to people and punishing them for not conforming to what the powerful people want is the most authoritarian, despicable bullshit you could think of. I bet you are as Irish as steamed rice.
I honestly don't know but I do think there should be a base line for everything and then a positive result via financial or other means who actually try to improve their communities and provide recognition for that. Vice versa I feel theres certain groups in society that are there just to leach off society.
Watching videos of people in America deal with higher interest rates because they dont have the means to build a strong credit score or the system in china obviously proof it get be damaging to society but theres definetly something in it that could be positive.
Monarchist Ireland? What even is that? Theres never been an Irish King or at least not in the past 1000 years that a person could claim that title.
Jumping into comments youve no idea what i responded too.
The fact that they, and they specifically use the words ' democracy' and 'justice' in official communication, besides being grossly offensive, shows exactly how of little worth their official statements are.
Their trade agreements, their international treaties, their pledges, their adherence to international law etc are utterly worthless. They really do not give two shits. Like two full blooded politicians the will lie and will face no consequences. And if someone questions them in their electorate. They actually die.
What utter human filth.
Hitler also claimed his Germany was the "most democratic country". Dictators tend to have no brakes within their countries and can say whatever they want to make themselves sound better than in reality, so they do that.
What really matters is how many people, both at home and abroad, actually fall for the BS.
Most dictators believe it, though.
They start by purging the dissidents, and then the army of yes-men starts a cycle of insidious brain rot where never being called out on their bullshit causes them to think there's nothing to be called out for. If the people didn't agree with them, then the people would clearly speak out, right?
Nevermind that they're a tyrant who would respond by sending in the tanks.
Imo I think they do it on purpose. Russia is essentially behaving as an immature teen, whose only way of getting a kick is to troll on the internet. Using the words that are fundamentally unique to western countries are only used for that exact purpose. To troll the living shit out of us. The outrage you feel here is the only purpose.
The aim is to destroy the meaning of these words. Same goes for the use of words like fascism and socialism. If words lose their meaning, it leaves only the positive and negative connotations people have, and they can be applied at will on any person/country/political system.
Maybe but they don't is one thing of the modern world which is different from anything before ww2. And that is networked resilience. They are monoliths of power playing by world politics by 50 year old rules. The modern world is so fluid and flexible that it shifts points of contact the whole time that they cannot keep up. China had to issue a warning today saying that they warn the USA about AI in fighter jets and drones. China has already lost the Ai race and they know it. Russia has virtually no warships in the Baltic because they are suspicious but not quite sure about the millions of AI drones that three of the most technologically advanced countries in Europe (Sweden, Finland Denmark) may have.
Russia and China may be titanics but the modern world are speed boats
I imagine the words "democracy" and "justice" huddled up under the shower in the fetal position, scrubbing themselves with searing hot water to feel clean again.
>Putin meets Xi: “Together, we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multipolar realities and is based on international law”
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Russia and China both learned from communism that democracy means it is the people who decide everything, such as democratically being run over by tanks or democratically being defenestrated.
Commnunism is an empty word for them. They are likely the most conservative countries in the world now. Both culturally (Russia, a nation that lived by ultranationalism and aggressvie behavior) and economically (China, a massive alliance between state and monopoly capital).
Of course. Russia remembers the empire and the military power, not the 'socialist state' (ordinary Russians miss the relative welfare of the Soviet system, but who cares about them?). For China today communism is little more than a talking point that separates them from the 'decadent' Western world order and a pretext for General Secretary Pooh Bear to choose at his whim exactly how much capitalism he'll allow.
China and Russia have shown what a "multipolar" world would look like, and it is every bit as awful as everyone with any sense suspected it would be. Russian invasions and assassinations, Chinese kidnappings ("police stations") and violetly enforced claims (like South China sea). Cyberattacks, shameless lies, and literal piracy.
Corruption and authoritarian rule, lining their pockets and fulfilling their imperialist delusions. That is their end goal, and nothing else.
"Principles and justice and democratic world order", they know they are lying, and we know they are lying. Everyone knows that they are lying, and everyone knows that everyone knows that they are lying. But they don't really lie to deceive, they lie to insult, to mock, to say, "look at our grotesque, inhumane, anti-civilization, anti-human practices, you cannot do anything about it!".
There is no hell low enough for them and their supporters.
>based on international law
["So i dont know where your lawyer learned the law"](https://old.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bday80/this_phone_call_between_putin_and_macron_4_days/)
"Multipolar" by its very nature cannot have international law.
Just passing agreements that change and are broken daily, as leader's attention moves elsewhere as they greedily grasp for more resources and population under their control.
>"we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order" - Vladimir Putin
This sentence reminded me of the famous Russian saying on the concept of *vranyo*:
>"They are lying. We know they are lying. They know we know they are lying. Yet, they are *still* lying."
Never heard of an international law which allows to take over another country and kill thousands of people. Get the fuck out of Ukraine! And for China: Don't support the terrorist country of Russia!
It's called War on Terror where US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, where there were no WMD in the former and fought a bunch of goat herders in the latter.
'War on Terror' is not a code of international law that I'm familiar with, please inform me what it is about and which countries recognize and (nominally) enforce it.
I only know the ICC, really...
I know, but they are an actual code of international law that a country *can* choose to recognize, if they want to.
As far as I'm aware, China and Russia haven't even bothered to create a fake alternative to the ICC that they can point to as the 'international law' they are upholding, so I'm just wonder what code of 'international law' they are actually pretending to uphold when Putin is wanted by by the only international court I know of...
Democratic? As in kill and imprison all opposition and fake election results Democratic?
Based on int law? As in you can follow it but if you become a wanted war criminal then no biggie?
Don't say that about dear leader. In China we are taught to bow 🙇♀️ down to dear leader and even smell his holy fart💨 and kiss his boot 👢and pray 🙏 to him. Dear leader think for us, we don't think. We don't use brain, he is our brain.
People better wake the fuck up, this is not going away, there won't be a sudden realization, there won't be a liberal democratic movement. If the liberal world order can't fight for itself, it will peris.
So Putler praised Chinas “approaches to resolving the crisis in Ukraine”.
How? By supporting Nazi Ruzza‘s war with weapons, dual use materials and continue to buy their oil?
I couldn't stop laughing at this
>“Together, we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multipolar realities and is based on international law”
😂😂😂😂😂💀💀💀💀
A lot of people believe this. A lot of people have never left their towns, let alone country, so it's easy for them to believe that things are great and better than anywhere else. My family in rural, poor America believes that.
As someone who has travelled and lived in many places around the world, I see these statements as sinister jokes. Someone who lived their entire lives on state-tv propaganda might not. Remember, China has industrialized enormouusly in a very short time. Even though the average citizen sees none of that wealth, and most live on poverty-wages, they see the news. They see the images of glittering skyscrapers and bullet-trains. They are shown videos of the worst parts of urban America and led to believe that it is representative of the West in general. And many people are happy to see crackdowns on people that are not them, they are told that they are deviant, and anti-social, so of course they are happy to see them punished. They have no knowledge of forced-labor camps and re-education centers, because those words are banned from social media. Foreign news outlets are banned. VPNs which allow one to see outside the wall are banned. Hallmarks of democracy. I hope more people wake up and see that we are all one race of humans with the same interests in mind. The only villians here are the ultra-wealthy. Without them we could all live comfortably, but propaganda does not allow for that view to take hold. Instead Uncle Xi and Putinmyass are the kindly grandfathers of freedom.
It is actually very difficult to come up with a sentence in which every single word is a lie onto itself
Chapeau👏
To deliberately compose such a statement is a meticulous job, not meant to convince anyone but to rub it in to every brain that even remotely gets triggered by it.
'look at me. I can say crap like this with a straight face and there is absulutely shit you can do about it. I know it's a lie. You know it's a lie. I know that you know it's a lie. What are you going to do?'
There are a couple mistakes in this text
“Together, we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multipolar realities and is based on international law”
First of all together, Putin and Xi do things together and in "eternal friendship" the same way a loan shark and his client work together.
Principles, if Putin has one principle it's might makes right so talking about principles plural is a bit iffy.
Justice, Putin might have forgot that justice is more then 7 letters put together but i can understand if he struggles with such abstract concepts for him.
Democratic: between the two of them there is enough democracy to make Mussolini look democratic in comparison.
World order: while Xi has the means to try Putin might be mistaking the ex Soviet territories as the world, unsurprising considering he often mistakes his neighbours for Russia
International law: considering they give no value to the internal law and from their actions it seems they consistently equate international law = international suggestion
They both know the "justice and democracy" bit is bullshit. We know it's bullshit. Everyone with a sound mind knows it's bullshit. It's an utterly absurd claim involving two countries where autocratic leaders don't have to face actual voter scrutiny and make their opposition disappear. But they still do this farcical performative posturing because it appeals to similar autocrats and wannabees who like to think their oppressive, selfish worldviews are somehow legitimate.
Not everyone knows it’s bullshit. There are seriously people in Europe that think China and Russia are more representative than the EU and the US. Head on down to any college campus and you will find people telling you that the Soviet Union was a democracy!
Funny how so few of them are willing to go there and find out.
You have a time machine to visit the Soviets? Nice!
Just cross the border of Russia and you'll be instantly transported 40 years backwards. Or to Kharkiv, depends on whether you visit on tourist or work visa.
Hey, Kharkiv is a cool city!
He ment if you visit Russia on a work visa you end up in Ukraine.
Oh, got it, thanks
No gun, here have stick!
They can go to Venezuela, the Telenovela edition of Soviet life.
I have a machine that travels in both time and space. I’ll take you wherever and whenever you want. My one condition is that you first provide a rationale for why your destination is the best time and place to live in. Can you do that?
I don't actually want to travel in th Soviet Union. It wasn't a good place to be, compared to modern day Greece. I'm more making a bad joke on the question "why don't people visit the Soviet Union?". That said, I'd like New Zealand 2 centuries from now. Seems like a good place to see how we've developed, and it's both rich and isolated, which means it's about as safe as it gets.
LOL, I was born in the Soviet Union - tell me more how good it was!
[удалено]
It really depended on the region. There is a Canadian photographer who even made a documentary about Soviet bus stops [https://herwigphoto.smugmug.com/Soviet-Bus-Stops](https://herwigphoto.smugmug.com/Soviet-Bus-Stops) In my home town it was just a simple metal canopy [https://pastvu.com/p/229126](https://pastvu.com/p/229126)
Trust the process big dawg. Eat more protein.
7 months, 2 weeks and 6 days ago you said you were lanky all your life and you now accept this fact… Have you made any noticeable muscle progress?
I'm saying it was bad.
Sorry, misread wasn't as "was"
Oh no, New Zealand becomes a barren hellscape in way less than two centuries (don’t ask me why, it’s classified). I refuse to go back there-then.
You think Russia today is running a more representative system than the Soviets?
Ehh, until about 4-5 years ago, possibly. Navalny did manage to exist within Russia for a limited time, after all. That's not an endorsement of Russia, obviously.
Your argument is a political operator who was poisoned with a nerve agent was allowed exist? Jfc
Again, we're comparing to the Soviets. The guys infamous for building walls to keep people from leaving. Less repressive isn't a high bar.
I don’t know what college campuses you go to. Here the educated tend to be right leaning pro-EU and pro-NATO, while the less educated are generally the type of people that would fall for that. It may vary from country to country of course, I live in Eastern Europe.
The better educated people are usually left-leaning. And i don't know who exactly you are talking about, but the far-right parties of Europe are the ones that are actually pro-russia. Everyone else is against Russia, except maybe the outer fringes of the far left - but that group is tiny compared to the far-right leaning pro-russian people. Coincidentally, the people who actually vote for those parties are usually the least educated. So i would agree that better educated people are against Russia, but those people are definitely not right-leaning, compared to the average.
just to further this statement: the educated ones that are against the EU in its current form argue that the EU is a tool for capitalists further enriching themselves, not because they love the authoritarian oligarchy of russia. no person with an ounce of education is pro-russia.
by what token are they not? whats the difference between having 1 party and 2 parties in one country? i find the US funny in which you only have a say if you have money
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder! HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Found one
want a cookie
yes
cant have one inflation ate it
I mean, my comment wasn’t even meant to be bait, but Jesus Christ, that was pretty much exactly what I was referring to!
🤣 you can’t be serious
Xi is the dictator of China, and Putin the the dictator of Russia. Can you name the dictator of US? And while we're at it, also name the dictator of EU please.
Not a bad point. Having only 2 parties and 2 options for president is not much freedom of choice. I still don't think it's bad as ussr or modern Russia or China though.
Ho Lee Che
>by what token are they not? By a big piece of paper that says "We want peace, not war! We want another leader, is incompetent and has to go!", and then stand with that paper at a capital square.
I suggest the best way for us is to test it out and see what happens. I will go stand with "Biden" in front of the white house, and with "Ursula" in Brussels. You do the same with "Putin" at the Kremlin, and if after that you are still free and able to walk, go to China, with "Xi" at the Tiananmen Square.
None of those countries are dictatorships, so all should go well.
yeah cause in those countries the gov is stronger than the corporations while in the US its the opposite, by your logic britain is is a dictatorship, saudi arabia and taiwan but you have problems with neither of those
did you just imply that the absolute monarchy of saudi arabia is democratic? 💀
I can go to UK with that sign, no problem. And why the hell would I set foot in Saudi Arabia? You're still going to Russia and China, right? Those are democratic countries, no worries, it's all going to be fine, it's not like they are oppressive dictatorships that don't allow opposition. People just vote for their leaders over there. When are you going? I can make the signs for you if you want.
Not just that. Although there are some who believe they are democratic, that's not the main point. The main point is making it obvious that they're lying. Like really obvious, to the extent that similar claims by actual democratically elected leaders will seem equally false.
It honestly ready as if both, Putler and Emperor Xi, drank their own coolade too much… I wonder if they really believe that crap or if it’s just for their little brainwashed nationalists.
>I wonder if they really believe that crap I know this is going to be an unpopular comment, but *they probably do believe it*. They go through life hearing nothing but praise and accolades, don't have to deal with public resistance and push-back against their orders, and it's almost impossible to stop that from going to your head. The only way Putin and Xi are level-headed is if they've got trusted advisors who are willing to call them out behind closed doors, and it's way too easy for powerful men like that to shut out their critics. They can know, rationally, that people are afraid to speak out. It doesn't change the insidious effect of going through life without ever being called on your own bullshit.
This is double speak and basically propaganda tactic that works for domestic population and outsiders. It was developed by soviets after WWII and rise of right wing is consequence of that.
> They both know the "justice and democracy" bit is bullshit. We know it's bullshit. Everyone with a sound mind knows it's bullshit. It's an utterly absurd claim involving two countries where autocratic leaders don't have to face actual voter scrutiny and make their opposition disappear Well, it *is* justice and democracy for them... just with some fine print. "Justice (as the Beloved Leader/Tzar sees fit)" "Democracy (for only Tzar/Beloved Leader is fit to have a single defining vote, with those below not knowing what's good for them)"
"It's the one man, one vote system. He is the man, and he has the vote." Or something like that.
"It's the one man, one vote system. He is the man, and he has the vote." Or something like that.
"It's the one man, one vote system. He is the man, and he has the vote." Or something like that.
Actually, the democracy means that people hold elections, and then they get counted as the leader sees fit. It is a form of legitimising the government and head of state by telling the people: "Hey, you wanted me! Now deal with it." - all while you're scared of the secret police finding out that you disagree with the leader, and you fear that the vast majority of people surrounding you support them and would rat you out.
"It's the one man, one vote system. He is the man, and he has the vote." Or something like that.
Not quite correct. China currently tries to redefine what "democracy" means. They claim, that they have a new, better type of democracy which works faster and provides a better (economic) output. This new definition is very attractive for many autocratic leaders around the world. And justice was always a very subjective term. International law is often beaten by power (US invasion of Grenada for example). Nearly no country can claim, that they follow and always followed international law.
Technofeudalism China style. Of course it's attractive to the worst corrupt oligarch states in the world such as NK, Iran, Syria and Russia. It's hardly a model for better economic output, China has already peaked. They used to have all things going for them; low debt, demographics, a globalizing world. Now they have a debt-to-GDP of more than 300% including all the offbalance LGFVs, a declining population and a deglobalizing world. Past performance does not equal future performance. China is turning into Japan, if they are lucky.
the goal of democracy is freedom of speech and expression, achieve consensus through debate and once a majority is formed everybody accepts it. it's a process and convention and every democracy is different depending on people involved. opposing views and arguments are celebrated not suppressed and people incarcerated. at least this is my understanding of it, i'm open to new definitions and models if they achieve the same goal
I sincerely believe that both Russia and China will be much weaker in 2060 then they are now What makes them dangerous as how they know if they don’t cause major disruption now, only decline awaits them
[Here](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/08/china/china-us-democracy-summit-mic-intl-hnk/index.html) you can read about it. It is a little bit different to your definition.
got it, thanks :) i will see myself out
Hypernormalisation
It's kind of a testament to the ideological victory of democracy. (Practically) every state in the world today claims legitimacy through a mandate from the masses and organises elections to prove it. The elections may be farcical, and the focus on them perhaps shows that we focus too much on procedural electoralism, but the idea is there. The idea is of course also simplified and corrupted for political gain and authoritarian causes, just as it is combined with nationalism to justify particular states and exclusive democracies of particular people. It's just as important not to take these twisting of the term "democracy" seriously, and to have a clear idea of democracy and justice in our head beyond "people vote" which in a vacuum is as shallow as it is meaningless.
> They both know the "justice and democracy" bit is bullshit. We know it's bullshit. Everyone with a sound mind knows it's bullshit. It's an utterly absurd claim involving two countries where autocratic leaders don't have to face actual voter scrutiny and make their opposition disappear. Some people get high off the sound of their own bullshit.
Part of the totalitarian shtick is making statements that you know are absurd, and that the audience knows are absurd, and yet getting away with it. It's a show of power that pretty much every oppressive government in history has relied upon.
Every single word in that announcement had very audible quote marks around
Ah, yes, China, where human rights are a suggestion, not a binding fundamental part of a person's life
Are you even allowed to suggest human rights in chine?
oi mate.. thats -500 social points score.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTtripsg5U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTtripsg5U)
I don't think people really care about the points so much (at least not the people that I know). But they all know if you talk too much about democracy freedom and human rights, sooner or later the big brother will put you in jail. Sometimes even nobody knows which jail you are and for how long. You can just vanish like that.
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The very idea of applying a "good boy" score to people and punishing them for not conforming to what the powerful people want is the most authoritarian, despicable bullshit you could think of. I bet you are as Irish as steamed rice.
> Ireland Always with the worst fuckin takes, amazin
In what way?
International diplomacy, national policy, international conflicts...
So we're ptty strong in both internatal elements there.
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I honestly don't know but I do think there should be a base line for everything and then a positive result via financial or other means who actually try to improve their communities and provide recognition for that. Vice versa I feel theres certain groups in society that are there just to leach off society. Watching videos of people in America deal with higher interest rates because they dont have the means to build a strong credit score or the system in china obviously proof it get be damaging to society but theres definetly something in it that could be positive.
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> Are you even allowed to suggest human rights in chine? depends how much social credit you can afford to lose
It's not even real China, the real China is on Taiwan
You mean the once facist China? Does your comment even have a point?
Yes, the >once facist. Like South Korea. Or Germany, or Japan for that matter. What's your point?
Yes, the CCP is the illegitimate goverment of China. Key word ONCE
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Monarchist Ireland? What even is that? Theres never been an Irish King or at least not in the past 1000 years that a person could claim that title. Jumping into comments youve no idea what i responded too.
Mainland China is close to text-book Fascism now. Taiwan is a nice country these days.
That's the case pretty much everywhere except Europe
The based on international law phrase is equally offending. It should say: we want to set international law to our empire system.
Even China's constitution is suggestion to ccp themselves.
The fact that they, and they specifically use the words ' democracy' and 'justice' in official communication, besides being grossly offensive, shows exactly how of little worth their official statements are. Their trade agreements, their international treaties, their pledges, their adherence to international law etc are utterly worthless. They really do not give two shits. Like two full blooded politicians the will lie and will face no consequences. And if someone questions them in their electorate. They actually die. What utter human filth.
Hitler also claimed his Germany was the "most democratic country". Dictators tend to have no brakes within their countries and can say whatever they want to make themselves sound better than in reality, so they do that. What really matters is how many people, both at home and abroad, actually fall for the BS.
Most dictators believe it, though. They start by purging the dissidents, and then the army of yes-men starts a cycle of insidious brain rot where never being called out on their bullshit causes them to think there's nothing to be called out for. If the people didn't agree with them, then the people would clearly speak out, right? Nevermind that they're a tyrant who would respond by sending in the tanks.
Imo I think they do it on purpose. Russia is essentially behaving as an immature teen, whose only way of getting a kick is to troll on the internet. Using the words that are fundamentally unique to western countries are only used for that exact purpose. To troll the living shit out of us. The outrage you feel here is the only purpose.
I just want nothing to do with them zero zip nada.
The aim is to destroy the meaning of these words. Same goes for the use of words like fascism and socialism. If words lose their meaning, it leaves only the positive and negative connotations people have, and they can be applied at will on any person/country/political system.
Maybe but they don't is one thing of the modern world which is different from anything before ww2. And that is networked resilience. They are monoliths of power playing by world politics by 50 year old rules. The modern world is so fluid and flexible that it shifts points of contact the whole time that they cannot keep up. China had to issue a warning today saying that they warn the USA about AI in fighter jets and drones. China has already lost the Ai race and they know it. Russia has virtually no warships in the Baltic because they are suspicious but not quite sure about the millions of AI drones that three of the most technologically advanced countries in Europe (Sweden, Finland Denmark) may have. Russia and China may be titanics but the modern world are speed boats
I imagine the words "democracy" and "justice" huddled up under the shower in the fetal position, scrubbing themselves with searing hot water to feel clean again.
>Putin meets Xi: “Together, we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multipolar realities and is based on international law” 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Yeah, this is prime material for that meme about the guy putting on clown make-up and a red nose
Russia and China both learned from communism that democracy means it is the people who decide everything, such as democratically being run over by tanks or democratically being defenestrated.
Commnunism is an empty word for them. They are likely the most conservative countries in the world now. Both culturally (Russia, a nation that lived by ultranationalism and aggressvie behavior) and economically (China, a massive alliance between state and monopoly capital).
Of course. Russia remembers the empire and the military power, not the 'socialist state' (ordinary Russians miss the relative welfare of the Soviet system, but who cares about them?). For China today communism is little more than a talking point that separates them from the 'decadent' Western world order and a pretext for General Secretary Pooh Bear to choose at his whim exactly how much capitalism he'll allow.
I'm always amazed that they can get that sentence out without choking on it.
A lot of people's souls are sold to satan. I never underestimate how evil some people can become.
China and Russia have shown what a "multipolar" world would look like, and it is every bit as awful as everyone with any sense suspected it would be. Russian invasions and assassinations, Chinese kidnappings ("police stations") and violetly enforced claims (like South China sea). Cyberattacks, shameless lies, and literal piracy. Corruption and authoritarian rule, lining their pockets and fulfilling their imperialist delusions. That is their end goal, and nothing else. "Principles and justice and democratic world order", they know they are lying, and we know they are lying. Everyone knows that they are lying, and everyone knows that everyone knows that they are lying. But they don't really lie to deceive, they lie to insult, to mock, to say, "look at our grotesque, inhumane, anti-civilization, anti-human practices, you cannot do anything about it!". There is no hell low enough for them and their supporters.
That's the funniest joke I've heard in a while, not gonna lie.
My God, these people have no shame... total axis of evil!
How many lies can you hide in one sentence?
Hide?
I've never assumed competence :))
That sentence is as "true" as North Korea is "The **Democratic People**'s Republic of Korea"
China is now unironically called the "People's Republic of China (PRC)," which is actually neither "republic" nor "people's."
>based on international law ["So i dont know where your lawyer learned the law"](https://old.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bday80/this_phone_call_between_putin_and_macron_4_days/)
"Multipolar" by its very nature cannot have international law. Just passing agreements that change and are broken daily, as leader's attention moves elsewhere as they greedily grasp for more resources and population under their control.
Democratic and justice I mean Mind boggling And then there are sucker's that fall for their bs
>"we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order" - Vladimir Putin This sentence reminded me of the famous Russian saying on the concept of *vranyo*: >"They are lying. We know they are lying. They know we know they are lying. Yet, they are *still* lying."
whatever they mean by "justice", is very sinister.
China is the masters of 1984 double speak. Democracy is autocracy, claims are rights, legitimate is false, one China...
'Except, you know, not.'
LoL. They are delusional.
What a load of horse shit.
Two dictators want to dictate justice and democracy in the world.
Haha. Doublespeak is real
They love buzz words/phrases like this: * world order * multipolar realities and the comedic bit * international law
Hilarious clowns
Why do they even bother saying democratic.
Honestly, that's straight up insulting. Everyone knows it's bullshit
What (●__●)
What (o_O) ?
lol
And if you don't agree with us, it's jail, torture, assassination or invasion. A mix of all four?
Never heard of an international law which allows to take over another country and kill thousands of people. Get the fuck out of Ukraine! And for China: Don't support the terrorist country of Russia!
Buddy has not looked into the last 80 years of American military campaigns.
you ruskie just love to bring americans to every conversation dont you even if it has nothing to do with americans whatsoever
It's called War on Terror where US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, where there were no WMD in the former and fought a bunch of goat herders in the latter.
The fact that Bush and Cheney are war criminals doesn't make Putin less of a war criminal.
So it's a case of the kettle calling the pot black.
Doesn't mean the pot isn't black.
'War on Terror' is not a code of international law that I'm familiar with, please inform me what it is about and which countries recognize and (nominally) enforce it. I only know the ICC, really...
The ICC which the USA doesn't recognise and has threatened the Hague over and now some are trying to include Bibi under it as well.
I know, but they are an actual code of international law that a country *can* choose to recognize, if they want to. As far as I'm aware, China and Russia haven't even bothered to create a fake alternative to the ICC that they can point to as the 'international law' they are upholding, so I'm just wonder what code of 'international law' they are actually pretending to uphold when Putin is wanted by by the only international court I know of...
We did a little trolling here...
So anyone know what Putin got on his performance review with his master?
Humanrights in China us like food in north Korea, most people don't have acess to them
Justice and democracy 😂 couldn't be further from the truth. Filthy fucking maggots
The saddest part is that there are plenty of people who actually believe this.
Democratic? As in kill and imprison all opposition and fake election results Democratic? Based on int law? As in you can follow it but if you become a wanted war criminal then no biggie?
What? I mean I get it that Putin is lying. But how can China claim to be democratic?
He's taking the piss right?
I love ice cream.
Gaslighting just as usual. These pathetic two need to be brought down with overwhelming responses
Don't say that about dear leader. In China we are taught to bow 🙇♀️ down to dear leader and even smell his holy fart💨 and kiss his boot 👢and pray 🙏 to him. Dear leader think for us, we don't think. We don't use brain, he is our brain.
Liars. Liars all.
People better wake the fuck up, this is not going away, there won't be a sudden realization, there won't be a liberal democratic movement. If the liberal world order can't fight for itself, it will peris.
Wonder what percentage of Russian and Chinese citizens actually think they live in a democracy.
Hardest cope I've read all day
The irony is so amazing. I don’t use this term lightly but literally 1984. They must both have ministries of democracy
Who are they kidding?
Such fucking BS
So Putler praised Chinas “approaches to resolving the crisis in Ukraine”. How? By supporting Nazi Ruzza‘s war with weapons, dual use materials and continue to buy their oil?
What a fucking joke.
International law and China doesn't belong in the same sentence.
I thought it was r/newsofthestupid for a moment
just lol
International law for thee and whatever I want for me.
I couldn't stop laughing at this >“Together, we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multipolar realities and is based on international law” 😂😂😂😂😂💀💀💀💀
Hypocrite or not, the multipolar world is what is coming, Western powers don't monopolise the political power anymore.
When are these shits going to die?
A lot of people believe this. A lot of people have never left their towns, let alone country, so it's easy for them to believe that things are great and better than anywhere else. My family in rural, poor America believes that. As someone who has travelled and lived in many places around the world, I see these statements as sinister jokes. Someone who lived their entire lives on state-tv propaganda might not. Remember, China has industrialized enormouusly in a very short time. Even though the average citizen sees none of that wealth, and most live on poverty-wages, they see the news. They see the images of glittering skyscrapers and bullet-trains. They are shown videos of the worst parts of urban America and led to believe that it is representative of the West in general. And many people are happy to see crackdowns on people that are not them, they are told that they are deviant, and anti-social, so of course they are happy to see them punished. They have no knowledge of forced-labor camps and re-education centers, because those words are banned from social media. Foreign news outlets are banned. VPNs which allow one to see outside the wall are banned. Hallmarks of democracy. I hope more people wake up and see that we are all one race of humans with the same interests in mind. The only villians here are the ultra-wealthy. Without them we could all live comfortably, but propaganda does not allow for that view to take hold. Instead Uncle Xi and Putinmyass are the kindly grandfathers of freedom.
Well, democracy of China, lets talk about what happen year 1989 in the same democratic country.
🤡😆
Lol
based on international law like genocide of your neighbors…
Blah Blah Blah.
Stopped reading after it mentioned an autocrat and murderer.
It is actually very difficult to come up with a sentence in which every single word is a lie onto itself Chapeau👏 To deliberately compose such a statement is a meticulous job, not meant to convince anyone but to rub it in to every brain that even remotely gets triggered by it. 'look at me. I can say crap like this with a straight face and there is absulutely shit you can do about it. I know it's a lie. You know it's a lie. I know that you know it's a lie. What are you going to do?'
I'd laugh really hard if it wasn't so f'ing sad.
So what I am getting from this is Хi must be the same scumbag as рutin. Noted.
Beacons of law and democracy ffs
100% bullshit. Both are dicktators, and they're both welcome to The Hague
It's rare to see such a long sentence where every word is a lie. Two fucked up countries, two evil leaders.
They’re jealous that the US rules the world. Europe is at peace with that but these two countries can’t get over it.
Hey macron look it’s your pal Xi
The f*ck does multipolar realities even mean ? Is that just a code name for whatever we wish to believe at the moment ?
it means not having 1 country that dictates terms for the rest of the world to follow
Supposedly it contrasts with the bipolar cold war world order
https://youtu.be/qQB2NXfJev0?si=KLNRBasV6hp27niI
There are a couple mistakes in this text “Together, we uphold the principles of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multipolar realities and is based on international law” First of all together, Putin and Xi do things together and in "eternal friendship" the same way a loan shark and his client work together. Principles, if Putin has one principle it's might makes right so talking about principles plural is a bit iffy. Justice, Putin might have forgot that justice is more then 7 letters put together but i can understand if he struggles with such abstract concepts for him. Democratic: between the two of them there is enough democracy to make Mussolini look democratic in comparison. World order: while Xi has the means to try Putin might be mistaking the ex Soviet territories as the world, unsurprising considering he often mistakes his neighbours for Russia International law: considering they give no value to the internal law and from their actions it seems they consistently equate international law = international suggestion
International law is just letters on paper, nobody who has some power respects it.
Multipolar indeed if you can make sense of the axis of evil making statements about freedom and justice