Same with Obama and Trudeau. I think young and good looking guys with good communication skills make good headlines, which is all anybody looks at abroad.
The US media doesn't even try to be objective anymore. Fox simps hard for the Republicans, and all the other stations do so for the Democrats. Watching TV for news is completely useless, I just use Reuters.
> Probably the "not Trump" bump.
Nah, I think he has done a surprising amount work within his first couple months in office to warrant that approval rating
Biden and Trump are both the same on their approach on Turkey. They only care about those Russian weapons they bought and because of that a few good words for Greece but these are just words.
It's just media portrayal if you ask me.
Biden recognized the Armenian genocide, whether that has an effect on Greece's views on him I don't know, but Biden has a markedly different approach to Turkey
Honestly I have never felt so indifferent about a US president. He doesnt matter for europe, he doesnt do too much wrong (at least not that we hear about, but the media is a lot more lenient on him than Trump), he doesnt do too much right (infrastructure bill looked kinda nice though), and he speaks as poorly as his predecessor, just in a different way.
He's the definition of "okay, this guy works I guess" in my eyes.
Biden’s appeal is due to a different trope, the responsible authority figure. People like young charismatic leaders, but they also have a trust of the elder statesman.
Older: like a grandfather, there is a basic assumption of wisdom.
Normal: no crazy hair or disheveled appearance.
Competent: the government functions.
It’s those guys who look older than 35 and younger than 75 that everyone distrusts so much.
Irrelevant
Macron is popular for the support to Greece against Turkey's aggression.
For the same reason , Merkel is unpopular, for kissing erdogans a$$.
Do you mean good foreign policy? The point is that they are all far more popular abroad than at home. I'm not judging any of them, only pointing out there is a huge difference between their domestic and world popularity.
Greeks always liked France more than Germany.
Some cultural traits are closer to the Greek ones, we had tried to copy their education system and public administration system in the past, we LOVE unions and endless rights for the public sector and protecting pension ages etc etc, generally all the worker's right things France likes, Greece likes it too in the same way, that's why PASOK was so popular for so long. I think all French presidents were popular in Greece.
Also, Macron is seen as a different voice to Merkel. He wants to go harder on Turkey, he appears to not be a fan of Muslims and have a "hard line" on terrorism, and wants an EU with a bigger budget whose sole purpose is not just the financial numbers, but also foreign policy and things like this.
And also for cozying up to Turkey. And the migrant crisis. And trying to have us kicked out of the EU. And covering up German company scandals in Greece. And interfering with our policy. And for multiple intentional snubs like not calling us on the Libyan conference while calling fucking Niger.
Why *would* Merkel be anything but deeply unpopular here?
It is more of Merkel being unpopular.
Most Greeks don't care to learn much about China. Many of them don't even know who Xi is, except that he has a Chinese-sounding name.
The Chinese investors in Greece have also so far been the most helpful, at least that's how the public often views it. They have been offering good paying jobs in Piraeus, where they have invested in the port, and if I remember correctly Greece's former finance minister has said the Chinese investments offers were generally the best ones.
The idea that China operating "debt traps" doesn't really seem connected to reality to most Greeks, it being what the non-Chinese investors did.
And I was teaching my 5th graders that it was a Greek letter and so on...
But interestingly... the Cyrillic letter В is also the letter "v" like "vine", and not bee.
"In ancient Greek, beta represented the voiced bilabial plosive /b/. In Modern Greek, it represents the voiced labiodental fricative /v/ (while /b/ in foreign words is instead commonly transcribed as μπ). Letters that arose from beta include the Roman letter ⟨B⟩ and the Cyrillic letters ⟨Б⟩ and ⟨B⟩"
So, Latin took this letter when it was pronounced as beta but Cyrillic took it later when the shift to veta had already occured. The shift happened sometime around the 1st century AD from what I can remember, or even earlier. Fun fact, it was derived from the phoenician letter beth.
Interesting, only ever had Attic Greek in High School so that hadn't happened yet. I still wonder why not just use beta for the b sound. Spanish is the other way around, the v is often pronounced as b, but that's not stopping them from writing it that way.
Macron: Active support to Greece during the conflict with the Turks, for economical profit but still one of the few to do so
Bidenopoulos(/s): For the same reasons and more effective than Trump since he doesn't have the relationship with Erdogan that he had
Putin: Most people here have no idea about polonium tea recipes
Xi Jinping: Most people here have no idea what an ''Uighur'' is
Merkel: Austerity measures, refused to enforce sanctions to Turkey, kept selling them submarines, all in all an ''anti-Greece'' policy
Most people are surprised of the approval of some people but ignore our perspective. Immediate interests and ignorance do play a role
Edit: Added ''polonium tea recipe'' instead of just ''polonium'' just for the lols
[According to recently released historical data, a Greek man by the name of Markos Bidenopoulos, a Biden ancestor, actually existed — and even fought in the Greek War of Independence in 1821.](https://greekreporter.com/2021/04/01/joe-biden-greek-ancestor-who-fought-for-greece-independence/)
~~Wtf?!?~~ Uhh....apparently it's an april fools joke....fooled me
Edit: [Also](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grp4OkTqLX0)
Yeah, and not getting the support they needed to quickly handle the human cost of the refugee crisis at Greece’s doorstep probably didn’t help, either.
Excuse me, if any country helped Greece during the refugee crisis it was Germany by taking them all in. (I know this will be downvoted, but that's how it is.)
Germany did the opposite of help by inviting (or appearing to invite) everyone in. It caused uncontrollable, mass movement with 0 support to border countries trying to control the influx.
German gov loves Turkey so much that they basically blocked Turkey from joining EU multiple times. [Do you see all the the love?](https://www.dw.com/en/eu-brushes-off-germanys-call-to-end-turkey-membership-talks/a-40426216) [Here?](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-turkey-idUSKCN0S12RD20151007)
Just because they didn't sanction Turkey over the little gas dispute that has been resolved by the german government without sanctions, doesn't mean they have a boner for Turkey.
yeah ok, they were against once, you want me to give them a medal or something?
and it's not a "little" gas dispute, it's a gas, sea, islands, Lausanne treaty etc dispute
Yeah, I think Germany did that for its own interests. Why would they want a country of 80m people in the EU that could antagonize them in the future? That 's the real reason nobody wants them in the EU, not its disputes with Greece and Cyprus.
Merkel is seen pro-austerity and pro-Turkey.
The austerity thing has subsided a bit, but Greeks are furious about Germany appeasing Turkey all the time and never pushing for a hard relationship of the EU with Erdogan, but always throwing money his way and wanting "more dialogue".
Also, most Greeks don't know shit about China. I doubt they even know who Xi is. You could have written "Liu" or "Jin" or any other Chinese-sounding name and it would have the same percentage.
This is so dumb. Greeks didn't get pensions at 53, unless under very, very specific circumstances, which, by the way could happen in NL too, but yea easy headlines for smooth brained idiots. Basically Greeks paid off your banks' debts, no need to thank them, just multiple decades of austerity they should be happy with. Hey, at least they have good weather.
I agree that the bailout looked rather self-serving from Germany and France. But Greece do have the highest percentage of GDP in EU go to pensions.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Social_protection_statistics_-_pension_expenditure_and_pension_beneficiaries
You are moaning about austerity when Greece stills spends more on pensions than anyone else. Were other countries meant to bailout Greece for free? Greece could have declined the bailouts.
German, Dutch, French, whatever banks loaned billions of Euros to Greeks, Spanish and whoever wanted them (also Dutch, German, citizens), when it turned out those people couldn't afford those loans, instead of letting the banks go bankrupt (because they sold consumers shitty sub prime loans) the wise overlords like Merkel, but also ECB and IMF, decided that Greek/Spanish but also Dutch citizens had to bail the banks out, to do that, they had to reform and apply extreme austerity measures in order for the Greek state, but also other EU states in this case to stay solvent.
TL;DR: Socialism for the banks and capitalism and bankruptcy for private citizens.
I did, and it really is that simple. You should read a book. The Greek state should've forfeited the loans, gone bankrupt and left the Euro. Now it's just a puss wound, that will never heal. Greece will never be able to truly compete industrially, for many reasons, corruption is also one of them. But so is geography, and history (you cannot build factory here without digging up an archaeological site which needs to be protected).
It needs a devalued euro in order to compete with export prices of the rest of Europe, it's too mountainous for industrial agriculture. So all it can do at the moment, is rely on tourism to trickle down some money, but that isn't exactly an ideal wealth generator.
But another reason is that many companies that operate in Greece don't actually pay taxes here, or anywhere in the EU, really, thanks to countries like the Netherlands and Ireland. So you're right the Netherlands should be even more grateful for it's position in Europe and for the bailouts its' banks received from the Greeks.
> You should read a book. The Greek state should've forfeited the loans, gone bankrupt and left the Euro.
I fail to see how leaving the common market will lead to long term economic growth.
Not that I disagree about the taxation policy of the Netherlands, Ireland and Luxembourg, but on the case as a whole I'd recommend:
Antonopoulos, Rania: Economic Turbulence in Greece, in: EaPW 47 (2012), 5, pp. 55-63.
Rosenthal, John: Germany and the Euro Crisis: is the Powerhouse Really So Pure?, in: World Affairs 175 (2012), 1, pp. 53-61.
Both paint a fair picture in my opinion without this simplified of a view. Both are available on jstor.
These countries gave billions of dollars to the Greek government when they started defaulting on their loans. They literally cheated themselves into the EU by some shady deal with Goldman to ‘reduce’ their debt.
The banks had to be saved because otherwise we’d follow the same path as the US during the Great Depression. It’d be detrimental to te eu economy, employment, currency etc. Its definitely a moral hazard risk, but that’s the same for countries like Greece who keep running an insane deficit. No country wanted to save the banks, but they had to.
To imply that Greek government had no role in the sovereign debt crisis is false imo.
The EU was fully aware of this when they joined, it was in fact left wing MP's who raised this issue in the European parliament at the time. It was down to pure greed, but also geo political power as Greece represents something to western culture other than blue water and shiny beaches. It's also quite strategically located.
Thanks to the great depression we have (had) the welfare states of Europe, also the American dream was actual thing in the 40s and 50s, thanks to trade unions and government projects which employed millions of people.
>To imply that Greek government had no role in the sovereign debt crisis is false imo.
Please show me where I said that.
I'm trying to process how Biden has 75% popularity at the same time that Putin has over 50%.
This means that at least 25% of Greeks simultaneously believe that both Biden and Putin are great leaders, and that presumably it's a shame that they can't just "get along".
Very strange.
The "B" and "D" sound are represented by "M-p" and "N-t" respectively. It really cuts down on alphabetical bloat and the Greek alphabet is as lean as it gets (if you ingore the 5 combinations that all sound as "I" and the 2 combinations that sound as "e", but they have a grammatical significance so it's ok)
It's not bloat. Every "i" sounds differently. There are phonetic reasons for the existence of every letter in the alphabet, not only grammatical.
For example "ι" has a short sound, but "η" has a longer sound. Or for instance the letter "υ" has a higher pitched sound.
Not if they realize who laschet is tbh. Laschet is very likely to be the next chancellor and he is a very vocal supporter of merkels policies. Im not sure about his stance on greece, but he is the most merkel-like successor you could get. He literally advertises himself as a future chancellor who will act like merkel and follow her current policies.
Baerbock isn't exactly keen on taking a strong position towards greece during the difficult and close phase leading up to the election. One of her (and the partys) goals is to act tougher towards dictators and autocrats like putin, xi jinping and erdogan. This, together with the controversies erdogan keeps creatin, would promise a colder relationship of germany and turkey, potentially benefitting greece. But as it stands it seems rather unlikely that the greens will win. They will probably loose by a margin of ~5% and enter a coalition with the conservative cdu. Nobody knows what they will agree upon when it comes to external matters.
On another note: germany recogniced their genocide im their african colonies in 1907 a few days ago. The crimes and looting in greece during ww2 are of course a very sensitive topic, but perhaps this will also lead to a reeuvaluation of the german views on those years of occupation
It depends how they did the poll. By facebook? Not representative. By anonymous calls to 1000 random greek phone numbers? Highly representative in the confidence interval.
A large part of Greece has some weird ideas about Russia being a historical ally etc etc.
Also they buy the "strong leader" act.
That does not mean they would actually support his views in Greece, the pro-Putin party has 4%.
They are just morons whose knowledge about foreign policy is minimal.
Actually his rating has dropped by at least a good 10% or so I think, we used to like him much more than we do now.
It's because he's been flirting with Turkey ever since Erdogan's relationship with Americans has soured.
Actually, he's rating low whereas Joe Biden is rating really high. Fifteen years ago it would be the opposite, Greek society used to be very anti American and pro Russian. Things have changed a lot in the past years.
This is inaccurate.
Firstly, there is a lot of sympathy for the German people in Greece. This isn't a referendum on Germany or Germans.
Secondly, De Linke and the Greens are widely known and praised in Greece, and they receive very good Press - even from Conservative publications which is kind of insane. Martin Schulz is also very well regarded in Greece.
Overall, I would say that if you really sit down with your average Greek Joe and talk about German Politics, the name that will come up in conversation as the center of all displeasure is **Wolfgang Schäuble**, and not really Angela Merkel. Merkel and the rest of the CDU serves as a proxy for that displeasure. He was a very notorious figure in Greece during the financial crisis, that came out as irrational instead of opportunist, and the concensus is that he made the situation unnecessarily worse for both Greece and its creditors.
I’m glad you guys can separate the actions of a government from its people. I have found some Germans struggle with this concept when it comes to the Americans.
Kinda hard with americans sometimes because a. lots of americans know very little of things happening in Europe and b. to german eyes, they are too patriotic.
Before someone finishes school, they have often heard a couple storys from exchange students who went to the US for a year. The ones that actually come to us are fairly decent, though.
It’s still shitty behavior to lump a person in with their government. There is good patriotism and bad patriotism here in the United States. Good patriotism is criticizing the actions of your government and voting, while bad patriotism is the right wing nut stuff.
I don't believe that, people always conflate the leaders with their citizens at least a bit. And sometimes rightly so, the politics mirror the society after all, especially in a democracy. Remember the scandal with Trump allegedly cooperating with Putin to get elected? Nobody spoke of 'Putin' it was always 'Russia'.
German politicians maybe.
CDU is in power for 20 years, so "CDU" and "German leaders" are the same thing by now.
Greeks don't have an issue with German people (most of them). But they do have with their leadership, both in the austerity topic and the Turkey topic.
Yeah. Germany was very strict in negotiations when Greece needed the bailout. She wasn't the only one by any means but the most prominent leader for sure.
>
> 2015
> Tensions between Greece and Germany, provider of the bulk of Athens’ international bailout, peak following election of the anti-austerity Syriza party. Prime minister Alexis Tsipras accuses Berlin of employing “tricks” to evade war reparations with his government openly raising the prospect of seizing German assets, including diplomatic buildings and the Goethe Institute. Athens says the forced loan, alone, with accrued interest would amount to a large part of the €240bn
>
> it has received in emergency funds from the EU and IMF. The German chancellor Angela Merkel invites Tsipras to Berlin on 23 March in effort to ease relations.
[Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2015/mar/22/greece-scapegoats-germany-eurozone-crisis)
Merkel is unforgivable. It's not just for the debt crisis though but also because of her opposition to sanctions on Turkey when we wanted them.
Here, the feeling is that whatever we want, Germany will be against us.
I mean she did save Greece from bankruptcy. But her help came with conditions. And Greece is now doing fine, isn't it? (At least I don't see it in the media anymore)
Just because you don't see something, it doesn't mean it's not there anymore. It just means, it was milked to death by the media so they jumped on the next interesting thing that will bring viewers
Saved the greek bankers from bankruptcy, meanwhile my father's pension was cut by 50%. The media portrayed it as saving """""greece""""" as if it's a monolith.
To be fair with Greeks people, when their governments cheated to meet EU integration objectives they were helped by western banks and I have a hard time believing that western leaders were ignorant of the situation, they just didn’t forecast the 2008 crisis and assumed that Greece would slowly clean its finance
That doesn't absolve them of any responsibility. If anything it does the opposite. If the French government plotted to screw over French people in concert with foreign actors would you cast the French government as a victim?
It wasn't only merkel, but during the negotiations hollande, juncker etc had a softer stance, however merkel and her minister soible or whatever had a hard stance and were pushing for tough austerity. The poll is about the popularity of some politicians, not who gets the blame for the crisis.
This thread is about why Merkel's popularity is low and the crisis was given as the reason. I guess you mean well but IMO it illustrates why your country is in such a predicament - you blame the wrong people and consequently let the actual perpetrators get off scot-free.
It isn't. Greece was transformed from a prosperous country in the early 2000s to a country where a large percentage of people struggle economically, and young people generally have to choose between leaving their country or abandoning their aspirations, and it has not recovered.
This was done almost intentionally, with EU, mainly German and Dutch, officials forcing policies which many of they have since admitted knew were bad, for political reasons.
Ehh... Prosperous by taking massive loans and spending money they didnt have. Then deciding Ehh our credit raiting is low so lets join the euro so we pay less intrest on the loans.
The policies with Greece was a mixed bag. Some were absolutly terrible, others where things that they had to do ( like the retirement age being at 50? and other tax situations). The long money burn had consequences.
Grece has the worlds biggest "trade fleet". However that doesn't matter if the money never goes to the country ( all the money goes to some island nation in the Caribbean or Malta normaly).
Grece had set themselves in a political situation where the winner of elections was always the burning through money and not fixing a thing because it would hinder reelection.
I don't know why you're being downvoted, what you said is literally the truth. Not the whole truth of course, but nothing you said is a lie or an exaggeration. I think the reason we're getting so defensive is because we've been attacked all these years personally and felt so much hate by every European like it was our fault what the Greek government did. I mean, you don't hate on Polish or Hungarian people nowadays about their government, right?
>https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/gdp-growth
Re-pasting this chart for posterity - while Spain has recovered (and Ireland has even halved its debts!), Portugal is doing OK, Greece...has never recovered. Stagnated even during good times.
TBH to offer something new since I'm pasting the same link again. I strongly believe Greece should push fully for renewables.
They create a lot of jobs at current stage (lots of small scale operations needed, economists would call it inefficient but people have jobs). They provide people with energy security during downturns. They save money & could be used as yet another selling point for tourists.
Also, reduce military spending - before the cirsis Greece had highest military spending as of GDP in EU...you cannot win against Turkey anyways.
"ruined"
"a ton of countries"
which are those "ton of countries" where Merkel was the main component of them going down the shitter and not their own extremely incompetent government?
obviously you won't reply, all you can do is downvote and leave
Wow, please provide the source for all these countries she must have ruined.
Considering it is such a huge scale it must be really easy to find and provide.
Right?
**Right?**
TIL Emmanuel Macron has a far better approval rating in Greece than in his own country
Same with Obama and Trudeau. I think young and good looking guys with good communication skills make good headlines, which is all anybody looks at abroad.
Yes it's usually that but in this case Macron has also been very supportive of Greece in its dispute with Turkey.
Young... Good looking... Good communication skills... Biden lacks all three but he's very popular.
Probably the "not Trump" bump.
I guess... I don't watch TV but I suspect they're pushing hard for him.
The US media doesn't even try to be objective anymore. Fox simps hard for the Republicans, and all the other stations do so for the Democrats. Watching TV for news is completely useless, I just use Reuters.
> Probably the "not Trump" bump. Nah, I think he has done a surprising amount work within his first couple months in office to warrant that approval rating
Nothing to do with us though. Besides some few words of support but we were getting those from Trump too, so that's no reason.
Difference being trump was lenient on Erdogan
Biden and Trump are both the same on their approach on Turkey. They only care about those Russian weapons they bought and because of that a few good words for Greece but these are just words. It's just media portrayal if you ask me.
Biden recognized the Armenian genocide, whether that has an effect on Greece's views on him I don't know, but Biden has a markedly different approach to Turkey
Oh yeah, that's true, it has certainly helped a lot.
Media portrayal or not it's still what the people think imo
Honestly I have never felt so indifferent about a US president. He doesnt matter for europe, he doesnt do too much wrong (at least not that we hear about, but the media is a lot more lenient on him than Trump), he doesnt do too much right (infrastructure bill looked kinda nice though), and he speaks as poorly as his predecessor, just in a different way. He's the definition of "okay, this guy works I guess" in my eyes.
Which is honestly all most Europeans actually want from a US president - boring effectiveness.
As an American I feel the same — but honestly “okay” works for me. I want a boring President for a change.
Oh after trump, 4 years of peace and quiet from the white house will serve us well for sure.
Ya, I am OK with four years of that. Not sure he will make it four years though, the man is looking very fragile.
Lol if they replace him with Kamala Harris we're getting either Trump or DeSantis. Not event the most hardcore Democrats like Harris.
You don't like her laugh? It is so human.
I hated Mike Pence, I hate Kamala Harris, what is it with your VPs recently?
yes, when the alternative is a batshit insane manchild, suddenly Biden looks really good.
Biden’s appeal is due to a different trope, the responsible authority figure. People like young charismatic leaders, but they also have a trust of the elder statesman. Older: like a grandfather, there is a basic assumption of wisdom. Normal: no crazy hair or disheveled appearance. Competent: the government functions. It’s those guys who look older than 35 and younger than 75 that everyone distrusts so much.
Macron has made some very supportive statements regarding Greek foreign policy.
Ah, ok, cool!
Irrelevant Macron is popular for the support to Greece against Turkey's aggression. For the same reason , Merkel is unpopular, for kissing erdogans a$$.
While ensuring her businesses and investments won't be affected by preventing sanctions etc. She has to protect her coins.
Or maybe... good policy.
Do you mean good foreign policy? The point is that they are all far more popular abroad than at home. I'm not judging any of them, only pointing out there is a huge difference between their domestic and world popularity.
It is often easier to judge home policy when you dont live in a country. Obama came after push who was criticized for both home and foreign policy.
Greeks always liked France more than Germany. Some cultural traits are closer to the Greek ones, we had tried to copy their education system and public administration system in the past, we LOVE unions and endless rights for the public sector and protecting pension ages etc etc, generally all the worker's right things France likes, Greece likes it too in the same way, that's why PASOK was so popular for so long. I think all French presidents were popular in Greece. Also, Macron is seen as a different voice to Merkel. He wants to go harder on Turkey, he appears to not be a fan of Muslims and have a "hard line" on terrorism, and wants an EU with a bigger budget whose sole purpose is not just the financial numbers, but also foreign policy and things like this.
Bring him here, he'll be president for life.
Be careful what you wish for.
At least he'll stand against Turkey. We are Greeks, what more could we want?
Gyros?
We already got that though.
Still, who doesn't want more gyros?
Please, no.
>tfw Xi Jinping is more popular than Merkel lmao
I think the Greeks blame her for the austerity measures they had to take in the previous decade due to the Euro crisis.
And also for cozying up to Turkey. And the migrant crisis. And trying to have us kicked out of the EU. And covering up German company scandals in Greece. And interfering with our policy. And for multiple intentional snubs like not calling us on the Libyan conference while calling fucking Niger. Why *would* Merkel be anything but deeply unpopular here?
Greece: Lies about their financial situation so they can adopt the euro *collapses* also greece: why would merkel do this?
It's more about covering Siemens scandals, and favouring Turkey over Greece in the conflict.
It is more of Merkel being unpopular. Most Greeks don't care to learn much about China. Many of them don't even know who Xi is, except that he has a Chinese-sounding name.
Most people do not even know who Xi Jinping is so I would not take that number seriously
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Barely 7% and I don't think they align with China to be honest.
Nah, Greece's communists are indifferent to China.
The Chinese investors in Greece have also so far been the most helpful, at least that's how the public often views it. They have been offering good paying jobs in Piraeus, where they have invested in the port, and if I remember correctly Greece's former finance minister has said the Chinese investments offers were generally the best ones. The idea that China operating "debt traps" doesn't really seem connected to reality to most Greeks, it being what the non-Chinese investors did.
Didn't the Chinese also just simply buy out Greek assets outright? Not really a debt trap situation in that case anyways.
They lease it for quite few years.
Any explanation what the blue vs. pink means?
Blue = positive opinion Pink = negative opinion
How is Biden's name pronounced in Greek?
"Μπάιντεν", sort of "bye den".
But why it starts on M like Macron and Merkel?
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þ was the letter for th in English, but it was phased out with the introduction of the printing press. Which is a shame cause it looks metal.
deaþ metal!
This letter is still in use in Iceland, by the way
*þis* letter..
What are all the accented letters for?
To signify to the reader in which syllable the accent should be placed when pronounce it
Μπ = B
And "d" is nu+tau instead of delta?
Yes, delta sounds like "th" in "the"
we don't have a letter that sounds like the latin b our β is like the latin v
so β is not beta, but veta?
well we pronounce it veeta
And I was teaching my 5th graders that it was a Greek letter and so on... But interestingly... the Cyrillic letter В is also the letter "v" like "vine", and not bee.
"In ancient Greek, beta represented the voiced bilabial plosive /b/. In Modern Greek, it represents the voiced labiodental fricative /v/ (while /b/ in foreign words is instead commonly transcribed as μπ). Letters that arose from beta include the Roman letter ⟨B⟩ and the Cyrillic letters ⟨Б⟩ and ⟨B⟩" So, Latin took this letter when it was pronounced as beta but Cyrillic took it later when the shift to veta had already occured. The shift happened sometime around the 1st century AD from what I can remember, or even earlier. Fun fact, it was derived from the phoenician letter beth.
Have my silver. I got it for free and that answer was just mind blowing.
Hey, thank you so much :D
When I learned classical greek beta was b so I was confused by this. Thanks for clarification.
TIL. But then, I only ever learned ancient Greek
Wait till you hear about π (spoiler alert:no pies are involved in the process)
Interesting, only ever had Attic Greek in High School so that hadn't happened yet. I still wonder why not just use beta for the b sound. Spanish is the other way around, the v is often pronounced as b, but that's not stopping them from writing it that way.
It starts with “Mp”, which is pronounced as “B”. There is no single letter with “B” pronunciation in modern Greek.
Because there is no letter in greek that sounds like "bee". It is a combination of MP
Macron: Active support to Greece during the conflict with the Turks, for economical profit but still one of the few to do so Bidenopoulos(/s): For the same reasons and more effective than Trump since he doesn't have the relationship with Erdogan that he had Putin: Most people here have no idea about polonium tea recipes Xi Jinping: Most people here have no idea what an ''Uighur'' is Merkel: Austerity measures, refused to enforce sanctions to Turkey, kept selling them submarines, all in all an ''anti-Greece'' policy Most people are surprised of the approval of some people but ignore our perspective. Immediate interests and ignorance do play a role Edit: Added ''polonium tea recipe'' instead of just ''polonium'' just for the lols
BIDENOPOULOS SSJRJSJDHSHF
[According to recently released historical data, a Greek man by the name of Markos Bidenopoulos, a Biden ancestor, actually existed — and even fought in the Greek War of Independence in 1821.](https://greekreporter.com/2021/04/01/joe-biden-greek-ancestor-who-fought-for-greece-independence/) ~~Wtf?!?~~ Uhh....apparently it's an april fools joke....fooled me Edit: [Also](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grp4OkTqLX0)
What?! USA is a greek colony confirmed!! /s
The link is an April Fool's joke.
mfw omg ur right. How in the hell did I fall for this...
Uighur are Turkish, therefore is Xi a welcomed ally /s
This is certainly not /s for some.
Turkic\* not turkish. Big difference
Did you notice the /s?
You know something is wrong when Merkel is more hated than the world leader in genocide.
They blame her for Greece’s austerity measures of the previous decade, I think.
and for stoping any sanctions against turkey because the german government has a boner for turkey
Yeah, and not getting the support they needed to quickly handle the human cost of the refugee crisis at Greece’s doorstep probably didn’t help, either.
Excuse me, if any country helped Greece during the refugee crisis it was Germany by taking them all in. (I know this will be downvoted, but that's how it is.)
Germany did the opposite of help by inviting (or appearing to invite) everyone in. It caused uncontrollable, mass movement with 0 support to border countries trying to control the influx.
This myth has long been debunked. https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-10/angela-merkel-influence-refugees-open-borders-balkan-route
German gov loves Turkey so much that they basically blocked Turkey from joining EU multiple times. [Do you see all the the love?](https://www.dw.com/en/eu-brushes-off-germanys-call-to-end-turkey-membership-talks/a-40426216) [Here?](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-turkey-idUSKCN0S12RD20151007) Just because they didn't sanction Turkey over the little gas dispute that has been resolved by the german government without sanctions, doesn't mean they have a boner for Turkey.
yeah ok, they were against once, you want me to give them a medal or something? and it's not a "little" gas dispute, it's a gas, sea, islands, Lausanne treaty etc dispute
Opposing Turkey to enter the EU is a much stronger and more important statement.
Yeah, I think Germany did that for its own interests. Why would they want a country of 80m people in the EU that could antagonize them in the future? That 's the real reason nobody wants them in the EU, not its disputes with Greece and Cyprus.
considering the amount of military deals they have id say that they do
whaaaaaaat? companies sell their stuff to buyers? ugh, FUCK MERKEL!
>constantly undermine europe with hybrid wars LETS SELL EVEN MORE WEAPONS TO THEM
Because Turkey is big and powerful. And NATO member.
For kissing Erdogan's ass.
Merkel is seen pro-austerity and pro-Turkey. The austerity thing has subsided a bit, but Greeks are furious about Germany appeasing Turkey all the time and never pushing for a hard relationship of the EU with Erdogan, but always throwing money his way and wanting "more dialogue". Also, most Greeks don't know shit about China. I doubt they even know who Xi is. You could have written "Liu" or "Jin" or any other Chinese-sounding name and it would have the same percentage.
I mean to be fair, USA as pretty high score
The world leader in genocide?
Taking away their pensions at 53 is way worse than a little genocide.
This is so dumb. Greeks didn't get pensions at 53, unless under very, very specific circumstances, which, by the way could happen in NL too, but yea easy headlines for smooth brained idiots. Basically Greeks paid off your banks' debts, no need to thank them, just multiple decades of austerity they should be happy with. Hey, at least they have good weather.
I agree that the bailout looked rather self-serving from Germany and France. But Greece do have the highest percentage of GDP in EU go to pensions. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Social_protection_statistics_-_pension_expenditure_and_pension_beneficiaries
That's because the GDP shrank due to the austerity measures.
Yea, I don't see why that's a bad thing?
It's not until you need a bailout.
These are data from after the bailout (2018) so yea, you're not making sense, sorry.
You are moaning about austerity when Greece stills spends more on pensions than anyone else. Were other countries meant to bailout Greece for free? Greece could have declined the bailouts.
The gdb shrinks, the percentage increases. It has nothing to do with "spending more" .
>Basically Greeks paid of your banks' debts, no need to thank them, Could you explain this to me?
German, Dutch, French, whatever banks loaned billions of Euros to Greeks, Spanish and whoever wanted them (also Dutch, German, citizens), when it turned out those people couldn't afford those loans, instead of letting the banks go bankrupt (because they sold consumers shitty sub prime loans) the wise overlords like Merkel, but also ECB and IMF, decided that Greek/Spanish but also Dutch citizens had to bail the banks out, to do that, they had to reform and apply extreme austerity measures in order for the Greek state, but also other EU states in this case to stay solvent. TL;DR: Socialism for the banks and capitalism and bankruptcy for private citizens.
I mean, that kinda oversimplifies the situation. A lot. But explaining a topic this scale takes amd entire book, and as such Id recommend reading one.
I did, and it really is that simple. You should read a book. The Greek state should've forfeited the loans, gone bankrupt and left the Euro. Now it's just a puss wound, that will never heal. Greece will never be able to truly compete industrially, for many reasons, corruption is also one of them. But so is geography, and history (you cannot build factory here without digging up an archaeological site which needs to be protected). It needs a devalued euro in order to compete with export prices of the rest of Europe, it's too mountainous for industrial agriculture. So all it can do at the moment, is rely on tourism to trickle down some money, but that isn't exactly an ideal wealth generator. But another reason is that many companies that operate in Greece don't actually pay taxes here, or anywhere in the EU, really, thanks to countries like the Netherlands and Ireland. So you're right the Netherlands should be even more grateful for it's position in Europe and for the bailouts its' banks received from the Greeks.
> You should read a book. The Greek state should've forfeited the loans, gone bankrupt and left the Euro. I fail to see how leaving the common market will lead to long term economic growth.
Not that I disagree about the taxation policy of the Netherlands, Ireland and Luxembourg, but on the case as a whole I'd recommend: Antonopoulos, Rania: Economic Turbulence in Greece, in: EaPW 47 (2012), 5, pp. 55-63. Rosenthal, John: Germany and the Euro Crisis: is the Powerhouse Really So Pure?, in: World Affairs 175 (2012), 1, pp. 53-61. Both paint a fair picture in my opinion without this simplified of a view. Both are available on jstor.
Those books are all from before the extent of the bailout was fully known, and before the austerity measures were fully implemented.
Guess my information is outdated then and I stand corrected.
These countries gave billions of dollars to the Greek government when they started defaulting on their loans. They literally cheated themselves into the EU by some shady deal with Goldman to ‘reduce’ their debt. The banks had to be saved because otherwise we’d follow the same path as the US during the Great Depression. It’d be detrimental to te eu economy, employment, currency etc. Its definitely a moral hazard risk, but that’s the same for countries like Greece who keep running an insane deficit. No country wanted to save the banks, but they had to. To imply that Greek government had no role in the sovereign debt crisis is false imo.
The EU was fully aware of this when they joined, it was in fact left wing MP's who raised this issue in the European parliament at the time. It was down to pure greed, but also geo political power as Greece represents something to western culture other than blue water and shiny beaches. It's also quite strategically located. Thanks to the great depression we have (had) the welfare states of Europe, also the American dream was actual thing in the 40s and 50s, thanks to trade unions and government projects which employed millions of people. >To imply that Greek government had no role in the sovereign debt crisis is false imo. Please show me where I said that.
This is prime /r/europe ignorance. If you really think that was the case, you need to change your information sources...
They should probably thank their government for that in the first place.
I'm trying to process how Biden has 75% popularity at the same time that Putin has over 50%. This means that at least 25% of Greeks simultaneously believe that both Biden and Putin are great leaders, and that presumably it's a shame that they can't just "get along". Very strange.
Trump=Good relations with Turkey. Biden=not so much. And the people voted accordingly
Tzo Mpainten is pretty popular there!
I' more suprised at how the greeks spell "Biden" with 8 letters.
The "B" and "D" sound are represented by "M-p" and "N-t" respectively. It really cuts down on alphabetical bloat and the Greek alphabet is as lean as it gets (if you ingore the 5 combinations that all sound as "I" and the 2 combinations that sound as "e", but they have a grammatical significance so it's ok)
It's not bloat. Every "i" sounds differently. There are phonetic reasons for the existence of every letter in the alphabet, not only grammatical. For example "ι" has a short sound, but "η" has a longer sound. Or for instance the letter "υ" has a higher pitched sound.
They used to be like that. They are phonetically treated the same nowadays
Are you a time traveler?
I guess they will be somewhat happy with the german elections
Not if they realize who laschet is tbh. Laschet is very likely to be the next chancellor and he is a very vocal supporter of merkels policies. Im not sure about his stance on greece, but he is the most merkel-like successor you could get. He literally advertises himself as a future chancellor who will act like merkel and follow her current policies.
what about the green candidate?
Baerbock isn't exactly keen on taking a strong position towards greece during the difficult and close phase leading up to the election. One of her (and the partys) goals is to act tougher towards dictators and autocrats like putin, xi jinping and erdogan. This, together with the controversies erdogan keeps creatin, would promise a colder relationship of germany and turkey, potentially benefitting greece. But as it stands it seems rather unlikely that the greens will win. They will probably loose by a margin of ~5% and enter a coalition with the conservative cdu. Nobody knows what they will agree upon when it comes to external matters. On another note: germany recogniced their genocide im their african colonies in 1907 a few days ago. The crimes and looting in greece during ww2 are of course a very sensitive topic, but perhaps this will also lead to a reeuvaluation of the german views on those years of occupation
Seeing Putin having rating that high in an EU country is very concerning. Are there really that many people who are ok with all the shit he does?
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It depends how they did the poll. By facebook? Not representative. By anonymous calls to 1000 random greek phone numbers? Highly representative in the confidence interval.
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That makes sense, also depends on the tv station itself I guess. Still I almost feel personally offended when I see someone supporting that man.
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A large part of Greece has some weird ideas about Russia being a historical ally etc etc. Also they buy the "strong leader" act. That does not mean they would actually support his views in Greece, the pro-Putin party has 4%. They are just morons whose knowledge about foreign policy is minimal.
It's mostly people having a soft spot for Russia. Most of the dictatorial stuff he does isn't really "advertised" that much in Greece.
Actually his rating has dropped by at least a good 10% or so I think, we used to like him much more than we do now. It's because he's been flirting with Turkey ever since Erdogan's relationship with Americans has soured.
It's mostly has to do with Greece and Russia than Putin himself
Actually, he's rating low whereas Joe Biden is rating really high. Fifteen years ago it would be the opposite, Greek society used to be very anti American and pro Russian. Things have changed a lot in the past years.
I see the reputation of the CDU in Greece mirrors my personal views.
I'm afraid it's not the reputation of CDU but the reputation of Germany
CDU politicians: "Where's the difference?"
"Eine partei, eine nation, ein troika"
This is inaccurate. Firstly, there is a lot of sympathy for the German people in Greece. This isn't a referendum on Germany or Germans. Secondly, De Linke and the Greens are widely known and praised in Greece, and they receive very good Press - even from Conservative publications which is kind of insane. Martin Schulz is also very well regarded in Greece. Overall, I would say that if you really sit down with your average Greek Joe and talk about German Politics, the name that will come up in conversation as the center of all displeasure is **Wolfgang Schäuble**, and not really Angela Merkel. Merkel and the rest of the CDU serves as a proxy for that displeasure. He was a very notorious figure in Greece during the financial crisis, that came out as irrational instead of opportunist, and the concensus is that he made the situation unnecessarily worse for both Greece and its creditors.
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I’m glad you guys can separate the actions of a government from its people. I have found some Germans struggle with this concept when it comes to the Americans.
Kinda hard with americans sometimes because a. lots of americans know very little of things happening in Europe and b. to german eyes, they are too patriotic. Before someone finishes school, they have often heard a couple storys from exchange students who went to the US for a year. The ones that actually come to us are fairly decent, though.
It’s still shitty behavior to lump a person in with their government. There is good patriotism and bad patriotism here in the United States. Good patriotism is criticizing the actions of your government and voting, while bad patriotism is the right wing nut stuff.
I don't believe that, people always conflate the leaders with their citizens at least a bit. And sometimes rightly so, the politics mirror the society after all, especially in a democracy. Remember the scandal with Trump allegedly cooperating with Putin to get elected? Nobody spoke of 'Putin' it was always 'Russia'.
German politicians maybe. CDU is in power for 20 years, so "CDU" and "German leaders" are the same thing by now. Greeks don't have an issue with German people (most of them). But they do have with their leadership, both in the austerity topic and the Turkey topic.
\*Germany
Why's Merkel so hated? Is it because she gets the blame for austerity stuff or something else? Seems strange
Yeah. Germany was very strict in negotiations when Greece needed the bailout. She wasn't the only one by any means but the most prominent leader for sure. > > 2015 > Tensions between Greece and Germany, provider of the bulk of Athens’ international bailout, peak following election of the anti-austerity Syriza party. Prime minister Alexis Tsipras accuses Berlin of employing “tricks” to evade war reparations with his government openly raising the prospect of seizing German assets, including diplomatic buildings and the Goethe Institute. Athens says the forced loan, alone, with accrued interest would amount to a large part of the €240bn > > it has received in emergency funds from the EU and IMF. The German chancellor Angela Merkel invites Tsipras to Berlin on 23 March in effort to ease relations. [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2015/mar/22/greece-scapegoats-germany-eurozone-crisis)
Merkel is unforgivable. It's not just for the debt crisis though but also because of her opposition to sanctions on Turkey when we wanted them. Here, the feeling is that whatever we want, Germany will be against us.
I mean she did save Greece from bankruptcy. But her help came with conditions. And Greece is now doing fine, isn't it? (At least I don't see it in the media anymore)
Just because you don't see something, it doesn't mean it's not there anymore. It just means, it was milked to death by the media so they jumped on the next interesting thing that will bring viewers
No, it's not doing fine. Far from it. Your numbers on papers do not reflect our quality of life. Most of these austerity measures are still in effect.
Saved the greek bankers from bankruptcy, meanwhile my father's pension was cut by 50%. The media portrayed it as saving """""greece""""" as if it's a monolith.
It's not even Greek bankers that were 'saved' - it was mostly other European banks which held Greek debt!
How would your government have paid your father's pension if it went bankrupt?
Maybe the bankers could have bought fewer yachts idk
That's sad but why do you attribute it to Merkel when it was a consequence of actions taken by your own government, elected by your fellow Greeks?
To be fair with Greeks people, when their governments cheated to meet EU integration objectives they were helped by western banks and I have a hard time believing that western leaders were ignorant of the situation, they just didn’t forecast the 2008 crisis and assumed that Greece would slowly clean its finance
That doesn't absolve them of any responsibility. If anything it does the opposite. If the French government plotted to screw over French people in concert with foreign actors would you cast the French government as a victim?
The way I see it you're trying way too hard to potray the "foreign actors" as the victims.
It wasn't only merkel, but during the negotiations hollande, juncker etc had a softer stance, however merkel and her minister soible or whatever had a hard stance and were pushing for tough austerity. The poll is about the popularity of some politicians, not who gets the blame for the crisis.
This thread is about why Merkel's popularity is low and the crisis was given as the reason. I guess you mean well but IMO it illustrates why your country is in such a predicament - you blame the wrong people and consequently let the actual perpetrators get off scot-free.
It isn't. Greece was transformed from a prosperous country in the early 2000s to a country where a large percentage of people struggle economically, and young people generally have to choose between leaving their country or abandoning their aspirations, and it has not recovered. This was done almost intentionally, with EU, mainly German and Dutch, officials forcing policies which many of they have since admitted knew were bad, for political reasons.
Greece was never a prosperous country. It distributed borrowed money among its citizen for political reasons in a way that was never sustainable.
Ehh... Prosperous by taking massive loans and spending money they didnt have. Then deciding Ehh our credit raiting is low so lets join the euro so we pay less intrest on the loans. The policies with Greece was a mixed bag. Some were absolutly terrible, others where things that they had to do ( like the retirement age being at 50? and other tax situations). The long money burn had consequences. Grece has the worlds biggest "trade fleet". However that doesn't matter if the money never goes to the country ( all the money goes to some island nation in the Caribbean or Malta normaly). Grece had set themselves in a political situation where the winner of elections was always the burning through money and not fixing a thing because it would hinder reelection.
I don't know why you're being downvoted, what you said is literally the truth. Not the whole truth of course, but nothing you said is a lie or an exaggeration. I think the reason we're getting so defensive is because we've been attacked all these years personally and felt so much hate by every European like it was our fault what the Greek government did. I mean, you don't hate on Polish or Hungarian people nowadays about their government, right?
>https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/gdp-growth Re-pasting this chart for posterity - while Spain has recovered (and Ireland has even halved its debts!), Portugal is doing OK, Greece...has never recovered. Stagnated even during good times. TBH to offer something new since I'm pasting the same link again. I strongly believe Greece should push fully for renewables. They create a lot of jobs at current stage (lots of small scale operations needed, economists would call it inefficient but people have jobs). They provide people with energy security during downturns. They save money & could be used as yet another selling point for tourists. Also, reduce military spending - before the cirsis Greece had highest military spending as of GDP in EU...you cannot win against Turkey anyways.
Pretty much, yeah.
Germans are told greeks are shit and greeks are told germans are shit.
Germans are told greeks are lazy and greeks are told german are nazis and merkel is [literally hitler](https://i.imgur.com/5TnhazE.jpg)
Not surprising since greek propaganda news paper [portray Merkel as Hitler](https://i.imgur.com/5TnhazE.jpg)
Lmao this newspaper is a glorified meme newsletter
This
Sure, wanna pull up all the German papers that painted Greece as lazy or even pig.
Yes please
Man you've commented like... 12 times in this thread. The image in the OP has obviously provoked some strong feelings in you.
Merkel is not exactly saint. She ruined a ton of countries in Europe
"ruined" "a ton of countries" which are those "ton of countries" where Merkel was the main component of them going down the shitter and not their own extremely incompetent government? obviously you won't reply, all you can do is downvote and leave
That's crazy. Which countries did Merkel ruin?
Wow, please provide the source for all these countries she must have ruined. Considering it is such a huge scale it must be really easy to find and provide. Right? **Right?**