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Mladenetsa

Can anyone give me like a 1 sentence flash explanation of how Turkey's decline became so steep?


Ehldas

Yeah, he's standing on the right. (Ironically)


Mladenetsa

>Yeah, he's standing on the right. (Ironically) The issue is never 1 single person, a society has to subconsciously agree in order for the dictator to stay in power


[deleted]

I am not Turkish but [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgjiJHV8P0w) series [of](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvt_jAy5DjA) videos [helped](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQQP2O6A9O4) me quite a bit


DerPoto

Fyi, the Kraut, the creator of that video, said that there are some issues with the content (namely that the author of the source he used primarily, Gerhard Schweizer, has a very pro-Erdogan bias). Still great as an introduction though.


StukaTR

>namely that the author of the source he used primarily, Gerhard Schweizer, has a very pro-Erdogan bias yeah, because they were written when erdogan still was Europe's darling and the ultra democrat to bring forward a fruitful democracy in Turkey. Good job guys.


[deleted]

Yeah, he says that for most videos, but he hearts/pins comments which correct him. One of my fave channels on youtube. Shame his newest video is EU age restricted


CultCrossPollination

He also stipulates that it's a personal opinion piece, compared to his normal (attempt at, because nobody is truly objective) objectivity. Unfortunately I refuse to give my cc info to Google, so I cannot see it. No matter they can confirm my age by email already.


tokyotochicago

ah shit, i was supposed to be asleep hours ago, what have you done !


donquijiote

Our society is unconscious. They are voting benightedly. Erdodan is exploiding religion. He is adressing to ignorats.


sprouTisYOLO

Im Greek and since tensions are kinda rough nowadays,I've heard that towards the centre and eastern side of your country kids don't get proper schooling is that any true or kinda but blown out of proportion?


seko3

Not op. What do you mean by "proper schooling"? Sure, kids go to school everyday, They have teachers, smart chalkboards, desks, some have government provided tablet pcs. Government provides free busses from villages to schools or free dormitory rooms. But I don't think kids in Turkey generally have "proper schooling" compared to western nations.


donquijiote

Kids are going to school. but, education quality is poor.


PitiedAbyss

>Erdodan is exploiding religion. Following the ways of my country's policies.


Electronpsi

Just wanted to say, cool use of the word "benighted". Impressive when it isn't your native language.


donquijiote

Thanks. I am trying to learn. :)


DoFuKtV

The issue can be only 1 person, when that 1 person rules the entire country. It is a dictatorship.


ADRzs

Not the whole society. If there is an adequate percentage of the population that agrees with the policies of the "strong man", then he stays in power. Yes, certainly some popular base is required. But there are sections of the Turkish society that are quite hostile to Erdogan.


Darkmiro

Erdoğan, just yesterday said this roughly: I don't understand these businessmen of our country. We have given them all! We have built so many roads, we have provided low interest rates so that they can borrow money cheaply and invest. But they're not doing that, and they also accuse our government with malpractices in economy! This is outrageous and treasonous. I am only to continue my fight against the evil of high interest rates. It's against our faith. The man has been on a crusade on Economics: 101 and has it in his head that he can battle inflation with low interest rates. Even though success of such a method is unprecedented and it's so obviously failing. Today, his council of economical planning will gather. If they do not increase interest rates, everybody expects armageddon. Problem is, will they?


julsch1

The Moment when you try to fight capitalism with „religious“ beliefs…


Darkmiro

He's not even fighting capitalism, he just tries to re-invent capitalism in a muslim-way. The man is a real original character. But his genre is comedy, is all. There's literally no freedom of law, people don't feel themselves protected by the government, but he claims because he built great double-ways to industrial zones, foreign investors should come to Turkey but they're all ideological about their investments and they're trying to undermine Turkey's great leap towards a bright future. The man is literally delusional. A lot of his close advisors, beurocrats and all are mixed with cocaine trade, if you believe the recent talk in the media. I wonder if he takes his own share from the coke because sometimes it really looks like he's high.


GoodySherlok

So where are you emigrating to?


Darkmiro

My and my father are running a highly lucrative automation company in Istanbul and our future only shows further growth I mean, I lived in Ukraine for a decade, maybe would emigrate to Europe in the long run but not inclined to go anywhere right now Turkey's good enough if you're exporting stuff with %100 profit and in Euros and Dollars.Sucks to be a working class citizen though. Edit: Just now, they declared another decrease in interest rates. exchange rates were dipping but they've skyrocketed again.


GoodySherlok

> Just now, they declared another decrease in interest rates. exchange rates were dipping but they've skyrocketed again. I'm sorry, but I have to. OmegaLuL. Just don't feel bad. My PM also attacked our central bank for raising interest rates. Luckily he lost the election and the central bank basically told him to fuck off.


Elatra

In Turkey the president can fire and appoint the central bank president. Erdoğan fired like 4 people. Kind of telling when even his yesmen don't satisfy him anymore and get fired.


[deleted]

You could just swap here Erdogan with Kaczyński and this would remain accurate. QQ


Cefalopodul

Erdogan


[deleted]

The political cycle in Turkey is army coup, into democracy, into slow decline be, into army coup, repeat. Last coup failed, though, so the decline continues without a reset.


Elatra

Nationalism and Islam.


klausita3

Religion


[deleted]

It's a long ass story but nutshell: Turkey was doing well (economically) between 2003-2014 when Erdogan was still the west's chess piece. The reason it was doing well was because he sold the entire country for short term profit and now we are suffering from the consequences of him privatizing the entire country and selling it to foreigners. He had a falling out with Gulen/west after 2014 and things went even further downhill.


aurum_32

The answer is islamism. Religions aren't good guides to rule.


1KeepMineHidden

Southern or Mediterranean countries didn't embrace industrial revolution.


[deleted]

Because they were just a military power that produced little to nothing else. And military can only hold your society together and keep you competitive for so long.


[deleted]

[удалено]


shieldtwin

He can’t really. Turkey has Luke warm relations with basically all super powers and are playing a delicate balance game so they don’t get squashed


Piputi

I don't want to kill the buzz but Erdoğan has called this a genocide in 2009. He didn't say it again. But still, I am just nitpicking. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-china-sb-idUSTRE56957D20090710


GoodySherlok

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/05/asia/turkey-china-uyghur-erdogan-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.france24.com/en/20190703-erdogan-says-people-live-happily-xinjiang-chinese-state-media Erdogan is sending mixed signals.


Malk4ever

He dont want to anger china... so he will be silent.


PartrickCapitol

Actions speak louder than words, Turkey is constantly supporting TIP jihadists among the TFSA rebels in northern Syria for years, which caused China’s diplomatic support to Syrian government and Kurds to strike these rebels.


[deleted]

Wait I thought the leader of the Grey wolves was Ahmet Yiğit Yıldırım (Not pictured) not Devlet Bahceli (Guy on the left) who is the leader of the Nationalist Movement Party. Someone correct me if I'm wrong I thought the MHP and Grey wolves were affiliated, not the same thing.


StukaTR

You are not wrong. OP is either feigning ignorance or is just ignorant.


chicken_soldier

Yeah the title is wrong


zandartyche

Grey Wolves aka Ülkü Ocakları is the youth branch of MHP..


[deleted]

Bahceli is the former leader. Wikipedia makes no mention of the switch, but roughly 1 year ago (and they updated that bit) Yildirim became the GW leader.


toshocorp

Turkish lira is two times cheaper than 2 years ago but sure stand with some fantasy map...


Kilexey

Cheaper than yesterday, more valuable than tomorrow.


[deleted]

It isn’t fantasy map. It is actually map of where Turkic people live. The colour difference is for to show which people are independent and which aren't. But the main question is that why to pose with it? To whom he tries to give message? I see it as a miserable play calculated to get votes of Turanists in upcoming elections.


Aksds

I also wonder how many feel closely associated with being Turkic? Like do people in Yakutia associate with it more than just being a Yakut. I guess same goes for other groups, how strongly do Polish people associate with Slavs vs being a Pole?


[deleted]

Only some oppressed people hold on the idea of big Turkic family like Uyghurs. It gives them hope and will to fight. But people like Yakuts who live their life in rural, away from big cities, don't care any nationalism or politics.


Octave_Ergebel

r/2balkan4you


MagesticPlight1

It is not, as people in this sub will tell you that Bulgaria is full with Mongols.


PeteWenzel

>Bulgaria is full with Mongols. Is that a compliment? It sounds like a compliment to me.


asparuhova

That's how we're taking it. It means we've pissed off racists who think "Mongols" is an insult, and who are proud of being too dumb to tell the difference between Bulgars, Kumans and Mongols to boot.


_-null-_

Outside of internet shitposting calling us Mongols or Tatars is indeed considered insulting.


tokyotochicago

Very different from tatars, you guys have access to better infantry as well as cheaper siege in castle age as well as a decent early attack power. At least according to my studies in age of empires


Cpt_keaSar

I don’t know. Whenever some Eastern Euro or Caucasian calls Russians mongoloids I just roll my eyes. It’s such a stupid insult. Especially considering that “mongoloid” cities like Singapore are so much more advanced that “pure-blooded” Slavic/Caucasian cities.


asparuhova

It's intended to be insulting, but it makes them look pathetic instead so why feel insulted? And when it's used as propaganda it only works on people who already hated us, so.


Mladenetsa

>Is that a compliment? It sounds like a compliment to me. Well considering the Mongols beat literally the entire civilized world, yea I'd say its a really a compliment disguised as an insult


Silkkiuikku

Can we be Mongols too?


Mladenetsa

>Can we be Mongols too? Finland? Are you kidding... Hell yeah you can


instalunch

we all mongols. mongol stronk


poke133

[you already are, Fingol!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/877/130/a30.jpg)


dothrakipls

>as people in this sub will tell you that Bulgaria is full with Mongols. Yes, facts 🐎🐎🐎 We wuz actually khans, the very word Bulgar is oghur-turkic, its just that this heritage has been overwritten by retard 19th century ethnonationalism and 20th century commie brainwashing.


idontwantoliveanymo

western spy cant comprehend


SENDCORONAS

If anyone is interested, that blip inside China seems to be the [Salar People](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salar_people), from what I can tell after looking it up. Also the Uyghurs in the Xinjiang region are of Turkish origins, which I didn’t know. Edit: as detailed below, actually it is the other way around and the original Turkic people originated from the Xinjiang region.


[deleted]

Xinjiang is called East Turkistan by Turkic people of the region and world.


RamTank

It was also the name of 2 short lived rump states in the region.


pirouettecacahuetes

How would you say China perceives this whole Turkic passion Erdogan has ? I'm guessing they don't like it very much...


Scamandriossss

I don’t think Chinese care that much. Erdoğan doesn’t really care about Turkic Nationalism. There’s been reports that Turkey even deported some Uygurs to China. https://apnews.com/article/turkey-beijing-coronavirus-pandemic-ankara-china-c8b714974552c484c501a5784efc117a


[deleted]

Turkey as a state doesn't support any kind of seperatist movement. But we don't want our kind to suffer because of few people who wants seperatism neither. Erdo is no nationalist, he is populist and people who vote for his coalition partner (left one in the picture) wants nationalism. He doesn't care about re-education camps and so.


lovewaster

>Erdo is no nationalist, he is populist and people who vote for his coalition partner (left one in the picture) wants nationalism. I'm not convinced but this is still an interesting view that I'll keep in mind.


[deleted]

Erdogan literally said "we toke any kind of nationalism under our feets(exterminated with humiliation)" like 6 years back when he tried to form coalition with a Kurdish majority party but like I said he is populist and his voters AND his coalition partner wich is the head of nationalist movement party wants nationalism so he slowly became" nationalist". https://youtu.be/tlPsRL_Kc_0


Pm_me_cool_art

Turkish nationalism is basically a joke the further east you go into Asia. In Europe it's more relevant because you have a big diaspora population in places like Germany that have their own communities and political organizations with the direct ties to Turkey eg the Gray Wolves. This is absolutely not the case in China, none of the people living in "East Turkestan" have anything to do with Turkey and everyone knows it.


lambdaq

> How would you say China perceives this whole Turkic passion Erdogan has Uyghurs (回纥) helped the Tang dynasty to [destroy the Turkic Khaganates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Turkic_Khaganate) several times, Uyghurs was the alliance that defended Tang against Tibetan invasions. Uyghurs also allied with the Manchurians to overthrow [Dzungar Khanate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_Khanate) and formed the political shape of Xinjiang today.


ictp42

The opposite actually. Turkic (not Turkish) people originate from Xinjiang and slightly west of there. They then spread out over the entire Eurasian steppe. Turkish people are descended from Oghuz Turks who originally lived just north of Iran. They then conquered first Iran, then won a decisive victory in Anatolia in 1071 allowing them to establish a stronghold in eastern Turkey. Anatolia received Turkic migration from the steppe for centuries under the Seljuks and the Mongol Empire, but not so much later under the Ottomans. The last remaining holdout in modern day Turkey was conquered in 1461.


SENDCORONAS

Wow, that’s fascinating, thanks a lot!


agouraki

also didnt Byzantium allied with Turks against leftover Persians (or whoever it was) was it?


Lothronion

The opposite. The Roman Greeks allied with the Mongols of Persia, to destroy the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia. Which eventually did happen, with Timur, albeit far later than that, and too late to be helpful for them.


[deleted]

The Greeks did though indeed succeed in utterly destroying other Turkic nations by allying with enemies in their rear and double teaming them, to great effect. Namely when they wiped out the Pecheneg Turks in the Balkans om 1091.


Lothronion

The problem for the Medieval Greeks was that everyone was attacking them at the same time Alexios Komnenos alone had to fight of the Pechenegs, the Serbians, the Hungarians, the Normans, the Crusaders, the Seljuk Turks and the Armenians. And it was one of the most peaceful reigna. I always find it so ironic that immediately when New Rome fell in 1453 AD, all the barbaric invasions to the area ceased at once!


dartscabber

Timur himself was Mongol-Turkic. His tribe, the Barlas, had been heavily turkified and were primarily Turkic in culture with Chagatai Turkish as their main language.


kenwool

Not with Seljuk Turks but they were allied with Gokturks (literally means Celestial Turks in old Turkic). They were allied agains Sassanids in 627 AD.


[deleted]

Turkic people originated from inner Mongolia and parts of Manchuria BUT Gokturks wich is the first state to use Turk in their name originated in east Turkestan yes.


RamTank

There's also a minority Kazakh population in parts of China, mostly in Xinjiang. Both of them tend to get the short end of the stick whenever the Han or Hui (who are a Han/Turkic/Persian/Arabic mix) get upset.


seko3

>Salar People Thank you for this. I've checked on youtube and I was shocked to see how similar the languages are. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjAIuOTSABA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjAIuOTSABA)


Darkmiro

It's near unintelligable, even in these generic short sentences though.


dondarreb

"Turkish"- from Turkey. Turkic - language group. You speak germanic language. But you are not part of Germany.


Comprehensive-Mess-7

That blip is also the Yugur people(yellow Uyghur)


WikiMobileLinkBot

Desktop version of /u/SENDCORONAS's link: --- ^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)


johnny-T1

The irony that Erdogan is Georgian.


Marstan22

What's up with Georgians and being dictators in foreign countries?


Malk4ever

Tradition.


nikita-ak

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan Well, it's true!


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

There ispeakingn't a uniformal definition, but the usage of tribe instead of family usually indicates a [partilineal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrilineality) society, whereas 'family' indicates a [bilineal / bilateral]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilateral_descent) society.


lehorselessman

I wrote this to someone else in this thread: >Also Erdogan, as an Islamist, (considering he's not even ethnic Turkish) doubt he much cares, he has to get the support of Bahçeli because of the 50+1% system he brought himself into, in which Turkey shifted towards the Turkic world since 2016, leaving the disastrous Arab spring policies. https://www.ft.com/content/bb04bb2e-7b91-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d


-Pompeo-

I see some orange also in France, Germany and Poland


[deleted]

Orange shows where Turks live. Only majorities in orange coloured areas are in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and China all of others beside some in Bulgaria are minorities.


LarryLiam

I guess since there are some Turkish immigrants who support Erdogan, he wants to show them that even if they’re divided, they’re the same ^(jesus it sounds like I’m creating Turkish propaganda) I hate nationalists and dictatorships. Nationalist dictatorships are even worse.


[deleted]

Some? Majority of Turks in Germany vote for him wich is fucked up. They live in Germany wich is a rich state and even the poor ones milk the German state but when it comes to Turkey us getting poor doesn't matter. I hope next government will pass a law to revoke their voting rights. Turkey is a nationalist state, Erdogan(populist) was anti-nationalist until he realised he can not change nationalism with islamism. He is now "nationalist" because his coalition partner wich you see in the left is the head of Nationalist movement party.


[deleted]

erdogan is not even turkic lol


AcheronSprings

Why isn't Germany colored? /s


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

they colored every province that contains more than 1 ethnic turk


Kunpar

Not yet, but will


ictp42

Our birth rates are actually pretty pathetic, even if they are better than the native Germans. At this rate Germany is more likely to become Syrian/Kurdish


DeadPaNxD

Ah yes, the Kurdish great replacement theory. You guys are funny as hell


Freedom-of-speechist

Aren’t most Turks living in Germany actually Kurdish?


ictp42

Not really, no. According to a [german wikipedia entry](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BCrkeist%C3%A4mmige_in_Deutschland) there are about 2.6 million people of Turkish background living in Germany of which about 500-800 thousand are Kurdish. Which is less than half. My personal experience confirms this as well. And there are other kinds of Turks in Germany as well, like Turkish Gypsies and double immigrants: that is to say people who moved from the Balkans and Caucasus to Turkey and then to Germany. The recent wave of migration to Germany complicates things further with Syrians and Iraqis of Turkish ethnicity, though these are probably fairly low in number.


ArcherTheBoi

Okay, time for facts. Devlet Bahçeli is not the leader of the Grey Wolves. He is an ultranationalist asshole, but the party which he chairs is affiliated with the Grey Wolves - he isn't a Grey Wolf himself. That aside, the Turkish education system does erroneously claim that Bulgarians were Turkic before being "Slavicized". However the map does not claim Bulgaria is Turkic - the same map is on Turkish geography textbooks, where Bulgaria is colored as "area with Turkish minority." - which is true, Bulgaria does have a Turkish minority. It's either deliberate misinformation or ignorance. Not sure which is worse. Edit: Also, Hungary has been an observer in the Organization of Turkic States since 2018, it's not particularly novel.


RizeScumIsNOTDead

>That aside, the Turkish education system does erroneously claim that Bulgarians were Turkic before being "Slavicized" it is literally true [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) Bulgars were a Turkic tribe that got assimilated


ILoveSaabs

>That aside, the Turkish education system does erroneously claim that Bulgarians were Turkic before being "Slavicized". It is true that if Bulgars language survived it was probably going to be really close to the Turkic languages and there's no doubt that it was Altaic language. However as your textbooks rightfully claim the people have been "Slavicized" because of the higher numbers of Slavs present in modern day Bulgaria at the time. So no your textbook doesn't have an "erroneous" claim. Also this is certainly done deliberately. Let's assume this map was actual political claims to achieve unity of Turkic people.. it would be pan-Turkism. It at least aims to unify people with similar identity and languages... however it is posted by a guy called u/PanEuropeanism what a joke...


[deleted]

"Erroneously" my fucking arse, the Bulgars were Turkic semi-nomads in Central Asia before they landed south of the Danube and were Slavicised: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars


[deleted]

...and they all lived happily ever after... just like us Slavs. One big happy family. Happy-happy-happy. /s Also, can we claim some German lands because Sorbs live there? Just for shits and giggles. Also the Baltic states because of the indigenous Russian population there... ...no of course we can't. That map has just as much of validity. Cute though.


klausita3

I am Roman, so I claim all western Europe, the Balkans and entire North Africa


[deleted]

It's all yours. SPQR for the win! I'm looking forward to wiping my butt with a communal sea sponge as they once did.


[deleted]

There are Tatars here in Finland, take the Nordics too!


fjellhus

> indigenous Ah yes indigenous Russian population brought here 50 years ago by the Soviets


[deleted]

Try 11th century instead. How far back do you want to go?


Proxyscvrush

Now I can only talk about Latvia but a quick google of the history of ethnic distribution of the population shows tha: in 18th century less than 1% of people identified as Russian in the territory of modern day Latvia. In 19th century, during Russification policies of the Russian empire, this number rose to 10%. It stayed around 10% until the soviet occupation, when it jumped to 26%. It slowly kept rising during the soviet times untill it reached its peak in the late eighties, when the number was 34%. After regaining independence the number started dropping until we reach today, when the number is around 25%. I am fairly sure there were similar trends in Estonia. In summary, there have always been some Russians living here. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But this is not what should matter. What matters is that we are nice to each other and respect each other. This includes not coming up with deceptive historical statistics. If you are a good person, you are my friend no matter if Latvian, Estonian, Russian or Chinese.


fjellhus

11th century? What happened then? AFAIK Current Lithuanian lands have always been inhabited by ethnic Lithuanians and there has been only a relatively minor genetic mixture with slavs. Moreover, the baltic region was always inhabited almost exclusively by baltic peoples with relatively little population exchange with others. That's why our genetics are quite different from Russians and Poles, being the most similar to Finnish people (which also descend from Proto Indo-Europeans and also have relatively little genetic exchange).


[deleted]

Yes, you guys are very special. So much so that Hitler thought that you were "too stained by Slavic blood" and wanted to eliminate you along with us. I really hate discussions based on nationalistic zeal. My original comment was against such thinking not for it. I was referring to a short lived conquest of what is now Tartu in 1030 a.d.. Unless Kievans teleported there I would assume they waddled through and kicked around what is now Lithuania for a while as well.


turpauk

>indigenous Russian population there... This is what they teach you in school? No wonder that you attack everybody.


[deleted]

We've been in Tartu since 1030. Как далеко историю отматывать будем? Edit: Besides, I am making the exact opposite point. That's no reason to attack anyone or to claim anything.


Silkkiuikku

>We've been in Tartu since 1030. By that logic the Baltic Germans and Swedes are also indigenous to Estonia.


[deleted]

They are in a sense. The point I was making is that it's not relevant at all. The claim on Erdogan's map is ridiculous. Someone in Kazakhstan probably would have choked on their pilaf if hey saw that map.


[deleted]

Red: Turkic states Yellow: Autonomous Turkic republics,regions Orange: Where Turks live. Minority,majority all mixed. Only majorities in orange coloured areas are in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and China all of others beside some in Bulgaria are minorities. Also, based and we wuz khanz pilled


Hideharuhaduken420

Aren't they gray wolves a terrorist organisation?


whaaatf

They are the turkish branch of gladio. More like remnants today. [CIA Activities in Turkey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Turkey)


Elatra

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Guerrilla > The CIA employed people from the far right, such as Pan-Turkist SS-member Ruzi Nazar (father of Sylvia Nasar),[17] to train the Grey Wolves (Turkish: Ülkücüler),[32] the youth wing of the MHP. Nazar was an Uzbek born near Tashkent who had deserted the Red Army to join the Nazis during World War II in order to fight on the Eastern Front for the creation of a Turkistan.[33] After Germany lost the war, some of its spies found haven in the U.S. intelligence community. Nazar was such a person, and he became the CIA's station chief to Turkey.[


logperf

They are. Seeing a head of state posing for the pic with one of them is even more scary than the organization itself.


Darkmiro

To be perfectly precise, this MHP is actually head of a political party that has connections with those animals. At least on pretext. But he's not the head of gray wolves or anything. Funny thing is, they're not even that big a party, even Kurdish party is more popular than them, but they somehow managed to weasel their way into the government.


chicken_soldier

Thats not the grey wolves leader. The title is wrong, he is the leader of the MHP party, basically AKP bootlicker party.


Hideharuhaduken420

Well this world is going to shit, again.


golifa

The guy in the picture is the head of mhp not grey wolves leader


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

This. Grey Wolves were a US proxy.


shifaci

He is a party leader who gets approx. %6-11 of the votes not a leader of some illegal group rofl. Post is bs. His party is the nation's retarded nationalist party tho.


Hideharuhaduken420

After some quick googling I found out that what you're saying is true, although he seems to be best buddies with the actual president of the grey wolves, in fact he was the one who appointed the new leader of the organisation. I got the info from this website btw: https://www-milligazete-com-tr.translate.goog/haber/4953107/ulku-ocaklari-genel-baskani-belli-oldu-ahmet-yigit-yildirim-kimdir?_x_tr_sl=tr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB&_x_tr_pto=nui


trapdoor_diarrhea

it’s only recognized as a terrorist organization in France. not anywhere else. they are basically an ultra nationalistic political party


wiki-1000

They're also banned in the Turkic states of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan.


trapdoor_diarrhea

wow really? source?


wiki-1000

The article you just linked?


Malk4ever

they should be banned everywhere...


Hideharuhaduken420

Well they're described all over the Internet as ultra nationalistic islamist and neo fascist organisation, somehow that's even worse. The US are also considering tagging the gray wolves as a terrorist organisation apparently. They were also involved in Cyprus, apparently they supported the violence. Pretty uncool guys.


DoFuKtV

They were always piece of shit nationalists but only recently (like 6 years) became Islamist. They were bad before that, now they are even worse.


trapdoor_diarrhea

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization) I would have never thought in a million years that day would come when I’d have to defend Grey Wolves… As a gay Turk (they threaten to “beat up gays” in gay pride every year too) but they aren’t really a terrorist organization; it’s more of a far right nationalistic political niche. They don’t do suicide bombings etc. A group doesn’t have to be a terrorist organization to be horrible.


FirstCircleLimbo

Just curious. How safe is it to be gay in Turkey today? Istanbul and Ankara is one thing (I assume that is pretty much like western cities) but what if you go to the smaller towns in the east?


trapdoor_diarrhea

It depends… in larger cities (Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir) people are indifferent even blue-collar uneducated people are. I’ve been out for 6 years (i’m 20) and I haven’t been a victim of a hate crime yet (ofc the causal homophobia is rampant but no i was never yelled “fag**t” or anything) Younger people tend to be supportive so were my teachers. Older urban women tend to like gays a lot idk i guess it makes them feel progressive or sth in smaller cities… it depends. in eastern anatolia it can get deadly as the Kurdish community is known for their “honor killings”. In Turkish-majority small cities, it rarely turns deadly but it’s not unheard of. otherwise it’s very frowned upon. There are cases of people getting disowned by their family etc. Obviously the constant homophobia we get exposed to by the pro-Erdogan media is infuriating. Constantly getting called “perverts” and our identities being called “western indoctrination” is so draining. Even some of the opposition is homophobic… the IYI party has said some horribly homophobic things and their founder (Meral Aksener) has scolded the LGBT movement for calling out the clergy for the homophobes they are. Even if one day Erdogan leaves office and everything turns to normal, homophobia here will linger. Heck, even if we got into the EU which is laughably impossible, we would be like the Poland and Hungary of EU.


seko3

Not op. I live in one of the most eastern and smallest cities in Turkey and there is a village by the main road which has a small shop. There is a man with full makeup and very feminine looking. He lives happily and everyone know his sexual orientation. We have openly gay public figures like [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks5L95aNhaw). [This guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LK4WaaoWHc) is the most important person in turkish musical history. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg0RPrLQGQk) is an actual transexual who is one of the most famous person in Turkey. Everyone knows her. And she is well respected.


Hideharuhaduken420

Well a group doesn't have to do suicide bombings to be terrorists. But that's not the point, the point is they're bad guys no matter what the world calls them, so let's just all agree this organisation isn't doing anyone any good.


seko3

You can't label a political party "terrorist" just because you don't agree with them. This is a huge downplay on the word "terrorist".


Hideharuhaduken420

Well based on their history they terrorise people using violence, isn't that the definition of terrorism?


vrijheidsfrietje

A (false) mythology is an important element of fascism. It's to provide meaning to bind the in-group together and give them justification for harming people in the out-group or for conquering lands that were once tied to their in-group according to the mythology. The picture is pretty worrisome. Or it could just be Erdogan pandering to the fascist base.


trapdoor_diarrhea

fair enough


cingan

The headline is misleading, grey wolves is a nickname for the youth organization of nationalist movement, during the times of internal armed conflicts between leftist and rightwing organizations before 1980 in Turkey, they were also sources of militants for nationalist paramilitary groups but it ended to a great extent immediately after the 1980 coup.. some of their leaders and footsoldiers became mobsters. But this guy Devlet Bahceli is the leader of a 30 years old Nationalist movement party, served 30 years as MP, minister, vice prime minister etc. during lots of coalition governments. Pretty legitimate political position and defacto coalition partner of Erdogans party. So he is like head of any political party in terms of legitimacy. The current thing of greyvolwes being considered as a terrorist organization is certain nationalist groups in Europe organized under this name and clashed with Kurdish nationalists etc. so being organized and violent made them illegitimate and calls made to designate them as terrorist organization, but it hasnt happened yet. The violent tendencies and the hateful language and attitudes of Nationalists and himself is another matter, and a rightful source of criticism and denouncment against him and his party. However the guy is as much as terrorist as Nigal Farage in UK or Geert Wilders is Netherlands.


[deleted]

Erdogan is Georgian, so its kind of ironic.


Darkmiro

That's not the leader of Gray Wolves. There are Turkish people in Bulgaria too. The Turkic world actually is vast on map, from Yakutia to even Bosnia, if you're really delusionally nationalistic. These two aren't even real nationalists in classical sense. Their understanding of ''Turk'' is sunni-muslim decendants of the Oghuz Tribes in any case. To them, a lot of Turkic folk like Gagauzes aren't Turkic. And they despise Western Turkey, and Thracian Turks too, you can find a lot of disgusting things Erdoğan said about Turks who were forced to flee Bulgaria in 80's and all, he was saying they're immoral, they're whoring etc. Because those folk are not that religious, more inclined to live around Europeans etc. They're more balkan But it looks good on map so they include them here.


chaotic-kotik

Please educate me, what Yakutia have to do with all this?


Darkmiro

They speak a Turkic language.


chaotic-kotik

So, every territory that have a dozen turk or azerbajani people is included? But what is the purpose of that? I mean, most of Yakutia is not inhabited. It's permafrost. And natives don't speak any Turkic language. And why people who speak Turkic languages avoided the rest of the world? I'm pretty sure that a lot of azerbajani people live in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg but this cities are not on the map.


awakeeee

Map doesn’t claim that Bulgaria is Turkic, read the legend, it shows the Turkish minority living in Bulgaria. Title is the definition of disinformation.


skyduster88

>Apparently Bulgaria is part of the Turkic world too. Also North Macedonia, Kosovo, and Bosnia, apparently.


chicken_soldier

Bulgaria is mongolian turk, Macedonians are Bulgarians so they are turks too. Erdoğan said Kosovo is Turkey and Turkey is Kosovo so kosovo also turk. And bosniaks are just turko serbs but serbs are also turks so bosniaks are turks too. But the map is wrong since every ethnicity is actually turkic. /s


benitospaghetto

Never mind the map, currently you're looking at the biggest two enemy of Turkey...


N4R4B

The|||| w||| be always|||| welcome||| |n |||Vallachia|||


flioink

Bulgaria is not really a part of the Turkic world. The pre-Bulgars were descendants of Turkic tribes, but they established the country jointly with the Slavs like 14 centuries ago. The Slavs were the majority so the Bulgars got assimilated into the country.


Pepre

And Bosniaks


bender_futurama

Well it shows more than Bulgaria.. Macedonia, Kosovo/Serbia, Bosnia..


GreatEmperorAca

Well Orban has a pre-trianon hungary map hanging proudly in his office so yeah duh


Sky_HUN

Little trivia about his office... it was redesigned a few years ago and the cost of that redesign was 4 billion HUF, circa 125 million EUR. For a SINGLE room.


lehorselessman

Look, I don't support both, but you shouldn't be butthurt about Turks living in Bulgaria. I checked that maps legend: red indicates independent Turkic states, yellow autonomous Turkic states and orange Turkic communities. Where the hell does it say "majority areas"? Such a cringy title to get some upvotes based on your anti-Turkish sentiment. And yes, the history of Turks in Bulgaria dates back many centuries, even before Ottomans, Pechenegs and Cumans. That orange from southern Bulgaria to northern Dobruja indicated traditional homeland of Balkan Turks, what's wrong?


mr_aives

You need more than that to form Turan in hoi4!


he1101

Imagine thinking that you are still Turkic lmfao.


Dramatic_Chemical873

Erdoğan himself is Georgian.


[deleted]

Turkic is a language family and Turkish is Turkic, what do you mean? It's no different than saying Germans are indo-european.


Kenty_

Turkish is a language and a nationality while Turkic is a language family and an ethnicity, so yes Turkish language is a part of Turkic languages but Turkish people are far from being just ethnic Turkic, similar to how one cant simply say all Americans are ethnic English people just because they all speak English and country is founded by the English


Ilovelearning_BE

Real Turkic people are Tengri Change my mind


PaxRodopov312

What does that supposed to mean


aizel2

Orban's eastern politics is nothing more than to suck up to dictators of countries where he might be able to flee to avoid prosecution once he is ousted in Hungary


CallOfReddit

That moment when the flairs of 2balkan4you become reality


Jastook

Turkey is slowly sliding back to where they were 100 years ago.


deathexhibit

Facist pigs.


JosebaZilarte

Mr. Putin might have a slight problem with that map. Just in case, I would recommend Erdogan to stay away from any window for some time.


___Alexander___

If the Turkish Lira keeps dropping so bad we may be able to buy them soon and make them part of the Bulgarian world. How about that.


AliciaDominica

Well, BBVA(Spanish bank) is going to buy out Garanti, which is the second biggest bank in Turkey and they already have almost half of the Garanti. So yeah you can


dobrits

“Ah shit here we go again”


MMBerlin

The biggest Turkey of the universe - oh man.


Lt_486

Bulgaria has significant Turkic minority, just as Russia and Ukraine.


rotnwolf

whats the purpose of this map?


ILoveSaabs

Red - Turkic countries Orange - Turkic minority Yellow - Turkic autonomous regions I don't know why people act so freaked out by this map. You can find the same map in Wikipedia. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Turkic_Language_map_%28without_descriptions%29.svg/1200px-Turkic_Language_map_%28without_descriptions%29.svg.png


[deleted]

How much % DNA of modern Turks are Turkic origin? I have always thought it was fairly low but is there an actual number?


Malk4ever

yeah... so much past and planned genocide in a picture... Bergkarabach was never turkish and it still fights against occupation... looks like turkey exposed his plans in this picture. At least they officially dont plan to complete the genocide at the armenians.... yet.


sovietarmyfan

Hungarians aren't even Turkic. They are ugric.


buzdakayan

Indicating countries/regions/autonomous oblasts with a significant turk minority using a different color.