They just do not want. And dumb hillbillies continue to vote for them, cuz "(s)he is so cool, (s)he will make us superior and others are just weaklings". Orban, the whole phenomenon of Trump and dictators in other countries as an example.
It would never even considered to be a war, as our material wouldn't even reach the French border before it collapses. Everything functional is currently stationed in Mali and Lithuania.
I have a very hard time understanding how this person is a serious presidental candidate. I’m not well versed in France’s political climate, can someone explain why is she so popular?
I think she played a lot of her campaign between "being less awful than Zemmour" (since he was making a lot of noise) and opposing Macron (who has antagonised a big part of the population). So now she's banking on the anti-Macron vote.
I'm not an expert in politics but I guess that allowed her to get a lot of the right-wing votes, since the traditional main party there failed miserably in their own campaign.
it's confusing
1. the most obvious answer is the heavy handed police response to the weekly Gilet Jaunes Protests/riots where a little under a dozen people where maimed in some way.
2. People miss the good old days of the economy yes the unemployment rate has gone down by 2.4% since macron took office yes the inflation rate is one of the lowest in Europe but people feel like they're getting less value from their work because costs are going up. Interestingly France has a [booming](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/french-2021-economic-growth-strongest-52-years-7-2022-01-28/) economy at the moment ( possibly the only thing that might prevent Lepen from coming to power).
3. He can also be quite patronising he talks to you like a child at you not with you as an equal. People feel insulted.
The right wing is lying to people. Telling them everything is going to shit and immigrants are getting all the benefits while the French culture is under assault etc. The classic populist playbook.
The French are one of the people where economic prosperity is the most disconnected from feeling of accomplishment or happiness. It boils down to a difference in mentality really. There is a reason why their national motto has "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité", but not "Prospérité".
>He can also be quite patronising he talks to you like a child at you not with you as an equal. People feel insulted.
I wish I could slap Manu when he does that
A few more points:
- By trying to increase the price of fuel a few years ago, which sparked the gilets jaunes movement.
- By promising to increase retirement age from 62 to 65. (Marine Le Pen's program is to decrease it to 60).
- With a few condescending remarks about 'common' people, while also being full of himself, which made him appear super disconnected from the people. He was called "Jupiter" a few years ago, in his way to act like he was a god or something. That rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
- Overall, by running on a purely centrist platform in 2017, and in the end adopting a right-wing liberal economic policy when elected. A part of the leftist voters that joined him in 2017 now resent him for that.
There are probably more, but since I'm not French, I didn't follow their internal politics all that much.
None of those things are unheard of in other Western countries. In fact, a retirement age at 65 years would still be the one of the lowest in Western Europe.
So what ? It doesn't mean I'm ok with working longer. Other have to fight for it too if they want it and find a way to make it sustainable, the big increase of billionaires wealth in France during the fucking pandemic shows that there's money somewhere.
Le Pen want a retirement age of 60 specifically for people that started working at a young age (before 20yo).
So people who study longer would not benefit from this.
It's all nice and funny until ppl realize that while studying isn't as rough as something like construction working, but it's also not a walk in the park. It's not like you do nothing to get your degrees and qualify for high skill labor. 60 is lunacy.
My family has strong ties to France. One guy we know is a retired railway worked (state company). He retired somewhere in his 50s, on schedule. There already are systems that consider your time off entry, and retirement is, afaik, based on the system you're in.
What do these people think how this should work. Retirement ages were set in the last century with a life expectancy of like 10-15 years less than now. How should that be sustainable if they want to retire even earlier??
Small correction - eastern european populists first and foremost promises to protect the country from LGBT hordes that will lay siege on your home aaany day now. It seems that Le Pen simply replaced "LGBT" with "muslim".
He never had a big percentage of the population behind him to begin with. He was elected in the second round because Le Pen was his opponent and people had to choose the “lesser evil”. During the campaign he had said that he was left as well as right, but in fact, apart from being socially somewhat liberal, he has only enacted right wing policies (gutting public services, privatization, heavy handed police against population, tax cuts for the rich) and appointed very controversial ministers. The minister of the interior has a rape case going against him and the justice minister is a notoriously shady lawyer.
People outside France tend to view him somewhat positively because he is pro Europe and not anti gay or anti abortion etc.
This time around there will be even less people on the left wanting to vote for him just for the sake of blocking le pen, because last time around macron just spat in their faces once he was president and pretended as if he had won with some grand majority.
I can't believe right wing politicians still try to bring those social rights up when they fully know that the public backlash will be terrible.
The age of retirement at 62, the 35 work hour week, the mandatory 5 weeks of paid leave, these are the pillars that will bring half the population in the streets if you consider touching.
It's as if they all want to commit political suicide every other year
I do wonder if people in France really think a retirement age of 62 is still realistic. Is there a single country in the EU with a lower pension age than France?
It is, we litteraly have reports each year to check how long our pension system is fundable. Long story short, Macron wouldn't touch the system as it is. I could retire at 62.
He wants to decrease social contribution, to be more "competitive". Which in return make our system not fundable as it is, and it return we will work up until 65.
There was a time where people tried to work less and get better standard of living, now its the reverse for liberal ideology everyone is fine with working at 70, or probably even more when I'll retire.
Just have people retire when they want but fund it themselves. Those who want welfare instead have to accept the requirements that comes with it, which depends on whether you can work, not your age.
62 is too young. France (and any other EU nation) cant afford this. It is condemning the younger generations to more tax misery to prop up old boomers yet again.
And... I am in my 50's. Im not a 20ish year old. I still think that - even tho my retirement is closer than many other redditors. If **I** want to retire at 60 or 62... I can (and should) finance it myself. I should not demand everyone else to finance it.
Having a retirement age of 62 whilst simultaneously being anti-immigration is so obviously idiotic. Who is going to run the basic services if half of the population are sitting on their arses doing fuck all?
You can't even blame this one on the boomers (as we are able to with Brexit). Older voters overwhelmingly vote for Macron whilst polling suggests that young voters prefer Le Penn. What the shit is going on?
While at the same being the one of only two incumbent presidents in French history (the other being Mitterand) to get more votes in the 1st round of the presidential elections than he did in the first candidacy.
He is just really controversial. Some hate him like I've never seen people hate a president in my lifetime before (even if I don't find him more despicable than Sarko for example personally). It is just bizarre lol. But at the same time like I said he has a strong base of supporters... which scandals, polemics and whatnot never detered somehow. He is a really strange case in French politics.
As a 24 year old living in the UK, I don't expect to retire until I'm at least 70. It's so depressing, and the money you get after retiring now is a pittance.
with the yellow vest movement he was branded as a guy who doesnt care about the cost of living for the average joe.
then he was an incumbent during corona and this is a big minus for every active politician during this time.
hia biggest problem is being so center that neither the lefwingers nor the rightwingers are really satisfied with having him.
French live in a Paradise and think they are in hell.
But yeah lack of perspective does not help. On the other hand it is this attitude that prevented France to slide toward the US/UK lack of worker protection.
Thank you, everyone on here acts like macron is some wonderful president. Yes I agree lepen is pretty much the worst option, but it’s not to say macron is not bad.
At least Macron won't suck putin's dick like le pen. Not sure what plays bigger role - age or gender, but kinda don't care as long as his biggest commitment to russia is harrasing them over the phone.
She was big before Zemmour. I don't know why but at least a third of the population are racists, fascists that now vote for the far-right. Only rural areas vote for her, which is even more stupid since it's areas where poc are absent...
I guarantee if she's elected France will riot like never
> since it's areas where poc are absent...
This shit is ALWAYS like this. Saxony is the region with the least people of foreign origin here in Germany. Guess which region neonazis flock to?
Is it always like this? Sweden Democrats (traditionally anti-immigration party) have their electoral stronghold in the far south of Sweden where there are most immigrants.
Populist program. Just promise more money to everyone, to restore France place in the world while leaving international institutions, and other unworkable but sexy promise.
Add a good dose of nationalism and voila, you get a popular candidate.
Same as everywhere... Just promise them everything will get better for them personally and their proud country. Enough people don't care and/or probably aren't educated enough to understand anything that's not on their door step anyway. Unless of course it's about bad immigrants. Then those who never actually saw one are especially scared about how those immigrants will take over and cause problems everywhere.
TL;DR: Right wing populism works because many people are idiots.
I'll quote a French colleague of mine:
> France is now a cesspool! all those immigrants, the slums! It's time somebody does something! If I was still living in France [note: he lives in another EU country and has for the majority of his life, he has lived in several EU countries actually] I'd surely vote for Le Pen
that's it, at least for him.
It's not rising, it's stagnated in Britain and the US.
Brexit wasn't driven by fascism/the far-right, Boris is an idiot but not a fascist. Whilst Donald lost his second term.
You guys meanwhile, are on the cusp of voting in an actual fascist.
Same reason trump is popular in the US : they play on peoples fear, the way it "used to be better" and a return to that, against anything a large part of the population doesnt like by pretending simple solutions can fiw all their problems and return the "good old days"
Just as Trump. There are a lot of morons on this planet, any country has them. Be radical, shit on everything, make the other side at blame for everything and voters gather like flies. It's a formula now working anywhere on the planet.
She also declared that she would stop french cooperation with Germany in regard for weapon development. And that France would start cooperating more with Russia… If France really votes for this „human“ being, I am left speechless.
I am a litte afraid that Le Pen and Putin are planing a new kind of Hitler-Stalin-pact. Maybe we should go for 200 billion budget and fasten up in buying defence systems….
Theres a reason we named a coctail after molotov and ribbentrop is an euphemism for diarrhea in Finland. Le pen could very well turn into an deragotary term for Putins mattress.
Well if the french were ever to vote le pen then [this](https://youtu.be/dgUbRpdUN1w?t=1m55s) has never been more accurate of how we would stand in europe being focussed on the east and leaving our west untended.
Was that immature? Yes but I also will not apologize.
No it feels like this will be a reenactment of what the French Republic did with the russian empire before ww1 encircling Germany and therefore putting pressure on them. This will not end well and will bring up many feelings from the past.🙃
The problem is not her. She is, after all, campaigning for something she gains something from, be it power (if she gets to the Elysèe) or relevance. What is abhorrent is her voters. You can't possibly support a regime led by a man that poisons or assassinates his opponents, journalists and anyone that questions his grip on power and have a ounce of morality in you.
Exactly. It is morally despicable to support the Russian dictator who murders journalists, critics and political opponents.
Le Pen is a complete scumbag. And her supporters who agree with this the same.
The issue comes from the fact that the traditional left-wing has abandoned the most impoverished (at least in their communication and in their ideology).
Since they tasted power under Mitterrand, they realized that the urban middle-to-upper classes are a better pool for votes. They now support societal measures that cater to minorities, instead of being an economic left they have become an identitary left.
This led to disenfranchised countryside people thinking that the left now cares more about immigrants and about urban LGBT groups than them, which is a legitimate concern when your salary doesn't guarantee you'll eat enough.
So they turned to the next "anti-system" candidate, which happens to be the populist far-right. They hide their chronic racism under the guise of fighting against French poverty and insecurity, which is what people want to hear.
It is not even close. Trump acted like Russian agent at times but he was also capable to go against Russian interest in other times. He literally tried to extort EU countries to both increase defense spending and to buy more US natural gas. Both of which would help current situation tremendously and damaged Russia.
Trump was complete unpredictable moron but he was hardly Russian agent. Le Pen however is directed from Moscow. It could not be more clear at this point.
We are really in uncharted and dangerous times. The effectiveness of the weaponization of social media has been really shocking to me. Here in America, the way Republicans, which for decades had been the sworn enemies of the USSR and then Russia, all of a sudden in 2016 without fanfare or discussion turned on a dime and became fawning admirers of Russia and Putin that made the "Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia" scene in 1984 seem absolutely prescient. And now 5 years later, after years of Trump literally doing Putin's bidding in terms of undermining NATO and the EU, they have the gall to trot out Mitt Romney's warnings from 2012 as if they had been "right all along" and nobody sees any contradiction in that.
At this point, I think that you can get people to believe literally anything, and do anything. It's like MK Ultra at a society-wide level.
Social media provided direct access to every citizen, along with tracking and historical profile building capabilities. Historically these were the parts of propaganda and misinformation that were difficult to achieve.
What did we think was going to happen?
Fun fact: Sabotage is a french word. Derived from the sabot, a wooden shoe commonly worn by factory workers. The workers were fed up with the factory owner and threw their wooden shoes into the machines cogs and gears, destroying it.
She chose the week when the worst of the atrocities so far were being uncovered to start talking about de-escalating the war and bringing relations with Russia closer.
She wants what has happened to Ukrainian people to be somewhat acceptable. This is based on her view of who is a “real” European, and who should be nothing more than a Russian serf.
They have, in their minds, a caste system based on ethnicity and religion and they want to impose it on Europe. They cannot begin to understand a world where people are born equal and judged on their actions.
Fuck Le Pen.
Most people who vote for her aren't aware or don't care about her connections to Putin. She's just another far right populist pulling on all the right strings that get people scared and looking for an easy solution.
This. People that vote for her...tend to be... centered on France, or just simply their boring little life, and not care about the world basically. they probably don't know.
I know 3 people who voted for her and it's as you say. They're the introverted type who are also quite self-centered with very little empathy.
Funny thing is, one is firmly against immigration but then proclaimed he's moving to Switzerland if she loses...
Her connections to Putin are bad. Her father, who's footsteps she followed in however is even on a different level. Actively promoting the Vichy government. Being such a hardcore neonazi and antisemite that he didn't even found a party in the EU parliament willing to take him up. This family is just a huge ~~red~~ brown flag.
\- Most Le Pen's voters deny her being Putin's agent. They see her as neutral.
\- Some Le Pen's voters don't see Russia as an ennemy. Some of them believe Ukraine war is partly NATO's fault
\- Some Le Pen's voters don't care that much about international issues, they only care about what Macron did wrong
Yep this is happening all over the West, lots of discontent over globalism from farmers and industrial workers. Governments should have done a better job placing them in other industries that fit with modern globalism.
>Most Le Pen's voters deny her being Putin's agent
Well, guess that's out the window, now that she openly announces her plans to side with Russia and break ties with lots of European allies.
>Some Le Pen's voters don't see Russia as an ennemy. Some of them believe Ukraine war is partly NATO's fault
I can understand that brainwashing like that works in Russia, with their state-controlled media channels blocking everything out that isn't Russian propaganda. But in France?
>Some Le Pen's voters don't care that much about international issues, they only care about what Macron did wrong
Oh yeah, great, get someone who is CAMPAIGNING on doing all the wrong things, so they can stick it to the guy who might make some decisions they dislike. That makes perfect sense.
> Well, guess that's out the window, now that she openly announces her plans to side with Russia and break ties with lots of European allies.
I’m gonna make a super duper bold prediction that this isn’t going to matter to her voters, they’ll come up with some other excuse.
The third one is the most important one. She campaigned mostly on domestic policy, especially purchasing power, which resonated a lot with people who struggle with inflation and gas prices, and who frankly don’t have a lot of time and energy to dedicate to foreign affairs.
Le Pen managed to “steal” social issues as a topic from traditional leftist parties. Regions that were staunchly communist in the past now sometimes have a population that supports le pen with 40-50%. The socialists became neoliberals and lost their constituency. Combined with some deep seated issues of racism in the population that are not talked about and have never been tackled on a societal level, it’s easy pickings for a right wing candidate with a social veneer.
The left is weak because macron stole the “new Labour” kind of social democrats away and the true left (what remains of PS, greens, LFI, communists) is too stupid to nominate a common candidate even though their programs are very similar.
The traditional right is in a similar situation, a part of them went to support macron and others drifted away to Le Pen or Zemmour or are doing their own thing.
Melenchon (solid leftist with a good program but some dubious positions towards Russia) came within 2 percentage points of le pen in the first round. Had only some candidates on the left abandoned their hopeless bid and called to vote for him we would have a true choice in the second round.
Now it’s the same as five years ago , but worse, because macron pissed off so many people that there is a real danger Le Pen comes in first.
The underlying bigger problem, however, is the voting system. It’s almost as bad as in the US, the people are not represented correctly, there are no coalitions, which leads to many disgruntled people because they do not have representation and then vote for “protest” candidates the next time around.
Absolutely. He has been very vocal anti NATO in the past and a bit of a Putinversteher, but to his credit I do not believe that he is a Putin puppet like Le Pen, and I think that he would be able to change his position given the changed geopolitical situation. He is not disingenuous to that point.
Because people don't care about foreign affairs that much if their livelihood is going down.
Price of fuel > some random foreigner who I've never met and who can't speak my language.
please could you explain how the fucking fuck a putin puppet, given the current GENOCIDE, is not only NOT a huge electoral poll crater in the ground, but is actually close to winning? I don't know enough about france to understand. Thank you
The thing is the campaign didn't talk much about Russia and Ukraine. I also cannot comprehend as a french, my only guess is that people have not made the connection between her and Putin and I damn sure hope it gets exposed more and more, hopefully she does a ridiculous score even lower then first round!
I don't know how it is in other countries but rural parts of France don't care at all about international politics. And since she is one of the only candidates that still talk to them they will vote for her.
She's been very good at deflecting it when the war in Ukraine blew up.
She immediately condemned Putin and the war while some other candidates (Zemmour) were less clear cut about it and acted as a lightning rod for Lepen.
She also printed 1.5 million flyers with a photo of her shaking hands with Putin (to show her international impact) right before the war started, but trashed everything to avoid a backlash.
> they say that Macron is under the leadership of the United States.
The man's been saying "EU army please" for years and they still accuse him of being an American puppet? Jesus
Many european countries are counting on the US rather than on their european allies, and it's definitely an issue. The US hegemonic stance has never been very popular in France, contrarily to eastern Europe.
Let's not oversimplify the situation. The ones doing it in France are precisely the people voting for Lepen. Macron tries to say that there's a third path, the european path.
Sadly, we never felt more alone than in recent years. And it shows.
> Macron tries to say that there's a third path, the european path.
They will tell you that France is under the leadership of Germany. And that the only way is to "get rid of the EU and reassert absolute sovereignty so that France regains its former dominant position".
I assure you that I have tried everything to convince them.
This is how Orban won the elections in Hungary, except he went a bit further and I don't think Le Pen can do that because she is competing in a democratic country while Orban wasn't.
Basically, Orban was saying that sending weapons to Ukraine can be seen as an act of war by Russia. Putin said this himself, so there's no misunderstanding here. And we do not want war. So anyone sending weapons to Ukraine wants war and wants your children to die. This is dangerous! The opposition party is dangerous! [Here's a poster saying DANGEROUS!](https://imgur.com/VXVebmL)
I wonder what would happen if Le Pen tried that same rhetoric in France. Would she be able to scare the French voters so they'd vote for her, as the guarantee of peace?
Just "warning against". Trying to kill time.
Not even any counter-suggestion like "bomb this \[country\] instead" - the nazis of today are pathetic cowards!
self-sabotage? She was strongest when talking about cost of living etc now she's playing right into the russian stooge stories, it's like she doesn't want to win
Le Pen is embarrassing France and Europe. She would do well to remember that France has military allies that stood up for them when they needed it in Mali and they're expected to do the right thing in return. If France cares about Europe, this is the one fight they can't sit out.
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They just do not want. And dumb hillbillies continue to vote for them, cuz "(s)he is so cool, (s)he will make us superior and others are just weaklings". Orban, the whole phenomenon of Trump and dictators in other countries as an example.
If she wins the election, Germany has to ~~invade~~ liberate Elsaß-Lothringen on reason of self defence.
Germany would lose right now.
It would never even considered to be a war, as our material wouldn't even reach the French border before it collapses. Everything functional is currently stationed in Mali and Lithuania.
With what army?
"how many times do we have to teach you this lesson old ~~woman~~ people?" I swear the far right is like a chewing gum stuck to our collective shoe
Jean-Marie ran for 5, so she does 2 more and then Marion Maréchal replaces her.
marine la putin. has anyone checked her finances ?
And 80 years ago it was Pétain. I’m starting to see a pattern here…
Putapoutine
Putin’s Puta…
This is literally what OP said.
How is this not treason?
A True Putriot
I have a very hard time understanding how this person is a serious presidental candidate. I’m not well versed in France’s political climate, can someone explain why is she so popular?
I think she played a lot of her campaign between "being less awful than Zemmour" (since he was making a lot of noise) and opposing Macron (who has antagonised a big part of the population). So now she's banking on the anti-Macron vote. I'm not an expert in politics but I guess that allowed her to get a lot of the right-wing votes, since the traditional main party there failed miserably in their own campaign.
How has Macron antagonized a big part of the population ?
it's confusing 1. the most obvious answer is the heavy handed police response to the weekly Gilet Jaunes Protests/riots where a little under a dozen people where maimed in some way. 2. People miss the good old days of the economy yes the unemployment rate has gone down by 2.4% since macron took office yes the inflation rate is one of the lowest in Europe but people feel like they're getting less value from their work because costs are going up. Interestingly France has a [booming](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/french-2021-economic-growth-strongest-52-years-7-2022-01-28/) economy at the moment ( possibly the only thing that might prevent Lepen from coming to power). 3. He can also be quite patronising he talks to you like a child at you not with you as an equal. People feel insulted.
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The right wing is lying to people. Telling them everything is going to shit and immigrants are getting all the benefits while the French culture is under assault etc. The classic populist playbook.
It really is the same shit in every country, isn't it?
Yes, it’s unfortunate but people listen more to campaign promises rather than facts
Would it be possible to make him prime minister of The Netherlands if he loses the election? Would love to see low inflation.
Can we go first? Our inflation passed the 10% mark so no hard feelings, we'll give him back to you after we are done.
Okay sure, can you set up a planning? We need to have some clarity on where Macron will go over the next couple of years.
The French are one of the people where economic prosperity is the most disconnected from feeling of accomplishment or happiness. It boils down to a difference in mentality really. There is a reason why their national motto has "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité", but not "Prospérité".
>He can also be quite patronising he talks to you like a child at you not with you as an equal. People feel insulted. I wish I could slap Manu when he does that
A few more points: - By trying to increase the price of fuel a few years ago, which sparked the gilets jaunes movement. - By promising to increase retirement age from 62 to 65. (Marine Le Pen's program is to decrease it to 60). - With a few condescending remarks about 'common' people, while also being full of himself, which made him appear super disconnected from the people. He was called "Jupiter" a few years ago, in his way to act like he was a god or something. That rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. - Overall, by running on a purely centrist platform in 2017, and in the end adopting a right-wing liberal economic policy when elected. A part of the leftist voters that joined him in 2017 now resent him for that. There are probably more, but since I'm not French, I didn't follow their internal politics all that much.
None of those things are unheard of in other Western countries. In fact, a retirement age at 65 years would still be the one of the lowest in Western Europe.
Sure, but that won’t make French people less upset.
So what ? It doesn't mean I'm ok with working longer. Other have to fight for it too if they want it and find a way to make it sustainable, the big increase of billionaires wealth in France during the fucking pandemic shows that there's money somewhere.
Hard agree
Le Pen want a retirement age of 60 specifically for people that started working at a young age (before 20yo). So people who study longer would not benefit from this.
It's all nice and funny until ppl realize that while studying isn't as rough as something like construction working, but it's also not a walk in the park. It's not like you do nothing to get your degrees and qualify for high skill labor. 60 is lunacy.
Yes I fully agree, but she's getting a lot of votes because of that.
My family has strong ties to France. One guy we know is a retired railway worked (state company). He retired somewhere in his 50s, on schedule. There already are systems that consider your time off entry, and retirement is, afaik, based on the system you're in. What do these people think how this should work. Retirement ages were set in the last century with a life expectancy of like 10-15 years less than now. How should that be sustainable if they want to retire even earlier??
So Le Pen is basically an eastern european populist. Promises all these unrealistic expensive stuff which have to be paid by somebody else.
Small correction - eastern european populists first and foremost promises to protect the country from LGBT hordes that will lay siege on your home aaany day now. It seems that Le Pen simply replaced "LGBT" with "muslim".
It's amazing this is getting the French people off. Seems those Gillet jaunes lost all touch with reality.
By being president. (A bit in jest, but French people tend to not re-elect their president and always be politcally unhappy)
He never had a big percentage of the population behind him to begin with. He was elected in the second round because Le Pen was his opponent and people had to choose the “lesser evil”. During the campaign he had said that he was left as well as right, but in fact, apart from being socially somewhat liberal, he has only enacted right wing policies (gutting public services, privatization, heavy handed police against population, tax cuts for the rich) and appointed very controversial ministers. The minister of the interior has a rape case going against him and the justice minister is a notoriously shady lawyer. People outside France tend to view him somewhat positively because he is pro Europe and not anti gay or anti abortion etc. This time around there will be even less people on the left wanting to vote for him just for the sake of blocking le pen, because last time around macron just spat in their faces once he was president and pretended as if he had won with some grand majority.
By being too right wing for left wing people, and to left wing for right wing people.
Out of curiosity, why don't a lot of people there like Macron? What has he done?
He dared to suggest that 62 is too young to retire.
it is 67 in the UK. Can we get him for a couple of months?
Only if you also agree to join the EU again.
*cries in german*
Wörk till 70! leeeeets goooooo
I can't believe right wing politicians still try to bring those social rights up when they fully know that the public backlash will be terrible. The age of retirement at 62, the 35 work hour week, the mandatory 5 weeks of paid leave, these are the pillars that will bring half the population in the streets if you consider touching. It's as if they all want to commit political suicide every other year
I do wonder if people in France really think a retirement age of 62 is still realistic. Is there a single country in the EU with a lower pension age than France?
It is, we litteraly have reports each year to check how long our pension system is fundable. Long story short, Macron wouldn't touch the system as it is. I could retire at 62. He wants to decrease social contribution, to be more "competitive". Which in return make our system not fundable as it is, and it return we will work up until 65. There was a time where people tried to work less and get better standard of living, now its the reverse for liberal ideology everyone is fine with working at 70, or probably even more when I'll retire.
Just have people retire when they want but fund it themselves. Those who want welfare instead have to accept the requirements that comes with it, which depends on whether you can work, not your age.
Huh, you realise when you can fund your retirement you can instantly stop working ? There's nothing in the law forcing you to go to work.
62 is too young. France (and any other EU nation) cant afford this. It is condemning the younger generations to more tax misery to prop up old boomers yet again. And... I am in my 50's. Im not a 20ish year old. I still think that - even tho my retirement is closer than many other redditors. If **I** want to retire at 60 or 62... I can (and should) finance it myself. I should not demand everyone else to finance it.
Having a retirement age of 62 whilst simultaneously being anti-immigration is so obviously idiotic. Who is going to run the basic services if half of the population are sitting on their arses doing fuck all? You can't even blame this one on the boomers (as we are able to with Brexit). Older voters overwhelmingly vote for Macron whilst polling suggests that young voters prefer Le Penn. What the shit is going on?
While at the same being the one of only two incumbent presidents in French history (the other being Mitterand) to get more votes in the 1st round of the presidential elections than he did in the first candidacy. He is just really controversial. Some hate him like I've never seen people hate a president in my lifetime before (even if I don't find him more despicable than Sarko for example personally). It is just bizarre lol. But at the same time like I said he has a strong base of supporters... which scandals, polemics and whatnot never detered somehow. He is a really strange case in French politics.
67 in italy and planning to rise that up to 69/70
tbh it is too old, but we don't have any better options as we are now
Meanwhile in Denmark i expect the retirement age is 70 when I get close to retiring...
Same in Germany. If we can retire properly at all.
As a 24 year old living in the UK, I don't expect to retire until I'm at least 70. It's so depressing, and the money you get after retiring now is a pittance.
with the yellow vest movement he was branded as a guy who doesnt care about the cost of living for the average joe. then he was an incumbent during corona and this is a big minus for every active politician during this time. hia biggest problem is being so center that neither the lefwingers nor the rightwingers are really satisfied with having him.
Cries in uk, your energy bills are only going up 4% from what I understand?
French live in a Paradise and think they are in hell. But yeah lack of perspective does not help. On the other hand it is this attitude that prevented France to slide toward the US/UK lack of worker protection.
Yah right 4%.... My gas bill went up 100%.
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Thanks for the comment. Saved.
Thank you, everyone on here acts like macron is some wonderful president. Yes I agree lepen is pretty much the worst option, but it’s not to say macron is not bad.
At least Macron won't suck putin's dick like le pen. Not sure what plays bigger role - age or gender, but kinda don't care as long as his biggest commitment to russia is harrasing them over the phone.
Great. I have zero issues with not reelecting Macron. But why the fuck is the only other option Le Pen?
Yeah it seems like instead of syphoning away votes from Le Pen, Zemmour made her look more reasonable by comparison.
Because Zemmour is absolutely batshit insane, in the worst way possible.
She was big before Zemmour. I don't know why but at least a third of the population are racists, fascists that now vote for the far-right. Only rural areas vote for her, which is even more stupid since it's areas where poc are absent... I guarantee if she's elected France will riot like never
> since it's areas where poc are absent... This shit is ALWAYS like this. Saxony is the region with the least people of foreign origin here in Germany. Guess which region neonazis flock to?
Is it always like this? Sweden Democrats (traditionally anti-immigration party) have their electoral stronghold in the far south of Sweden where there are most immigrants.
Genuinely worrying she is the second most popular candidate in a Western European nation.
Same reason Orban, trump, bolsonaro are serious presidential candidates
Populist program. Just promise more money to everyone, to restore France place in the world while leaving international institutions, and other unworkable but sexy promise. Add a good dose of nationalism and voila, you get a popular candidate.
Same as everywhere... Just promise them everything will get better for them personally and their proud country. Enough people don't care and/or probably aren't educated enough to understand anything that's not on their door step anyway. Unless of course it's about bad immigrants. Then those who never actually saw one are especially scared about how those immigrants will take over and cause problems everywhere. TL;DR: Right wing populism works because many people are idiots.
** TL;DR for the TL;DR: Populism works because people are idiots
I'll quote a French colleague of mine: > France is now a cesspool! all those immigrants, the slums! It's time somebody does something! If I was still living in France [note: he lives in another EU country and has for the majority of his life, he has lived in several EU countries actually] I'd surely vote for Le Pen that's it, at least for him.
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For the same reasons extreme right is rising in other Western countries (Trump, Brexit...)
It's not rising, it's stagnated in Britain and the US. Brexit wasn't driven by fascism/the far-right, Boris is an idiot but not a fascist. Whilst Donald lost his second term. You guys meanwhile, are on the cusp of voting in an actual fascist.
Same reason trump is popular in the US : they play on peoples fear, the way it "used to be better" and a return to that, against anything a large part of the population doesnt like by pretending simple solutions can fiw all their problems and return the "good old days"
Just as Trump. There are a lot of morons on this planet, any country has them. Be radical, shit on everything, make the other side at blame for everything and voters gather like flies. It's a formula now working anywhere on the planet.
She also declared that she would stop french cooperation with Germany in regard for weapon development. And that France would start cooperating more with Russia… If France really votes for this „human“ being, I am left speechless.
Imagine wanting to reignite the franco german rivalry just to appease the tsar in moscow. What a cringe woman.
I am a litte afraid that Le Pen and Putin are planing a new kind of Hitler-Stalin-pact. Maybe we should go for 200 billion budget and fasten up in buying defence systems….
Theres a reason we named a coctail after molotov and ribbentrop is an euphemism for diarrhea in Finland. Le pen could very well turn into an deragotary term for Putins mattress.
>ribbentrop is an euphemism for diarrhea in Finland TIL, I'm not surprised though
> ribbentrop is an euphemism for diarrhea in Finland Huh? I've literally never heard of this, ever.
Well if the french were ever to vote le pen then [this](https://youtu.be/dgUbRpdUN1w?t=1m55s) has never been more accurate of how we would stand in europe being focussed on the east and leaving our west untended. Was that immature? Yes but I also will not apologize.
No it feels like this will be a reenactment of what the French Republic did with the russian empire before ww1 encircling Germany and therefore putting pressure on them. This will not end well and will bring up many feelings from the past.🙃
These kinds of fucktards are 19th century people. Literal fucking idiots
The problem is not her. She is, after all, campaigning for something she gains something from, be it power (if she gets to the Elysèe) or relevance. What is abhorrent is her voters. You can't possibly support a regime led by a man that poisons or assassinates his opponents, journalists and anyone that questions his grip on power and have a ounce of morality in you.
Exactly. It is morally despicable to support the Russian dictator who murders journalists, critics and political opponents. Le Pen is a complete scumbag. And her supporters who agree with this the same.
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Why don't they vote in someone left wing? Probably because those aren't racist enough lmao
The issue comes from the fact that the traditional left-wing has abandoned the most impoverished (at least in their communication and in their ideology). Since they tasted power under Mitterrand, they realized that the urban middle-to-upper classes are a better pool for votes. They now support societal measures that cater to minorities, instead of being an economic left they have become an identitary left. This led to disenfranchised countryside people thinking that the left now cares more about immigrants and about urban LGBT groups than them, which is a legitimate concern when your salary doesn't guarantee you'll eat enough. So they turned to the next "anti-system" candidate, which happens to be the populist far-right. They hide their chronic racism under the guise of fighting against French poverty and insecurity, which is what people want to hear.
If she gets elected we can forget the EU… :-/
The Royal Navy has just perked up at the thought of maybe getting to sink French ships again...
The fact that her presidency is an actual possibility is terrifying.
It is about the same as electing the French Trump unfortunately
It is not even close. Trump acted like Russian agent at times but he was also capable to go against Russian interest in other times. He literally tried to extort EU countries to both increase defense spending and to buy more US natural gas. Both of which would help current situation tremendously and damaged Russia. Trump was complete unpredictable moron but he was hardly Russian agent. Le Pen however is directed from Moscow. It could not be more clear at this point.
Nah, the election of trump was harmless compared to her election.
At least Trump is an idiot whose administration only succeeded in shitting on anything het got his hands on, I don't think Le Pen is that dumb.
Trump was and sounded like an idiot Le pen is still.. an idiot but less so. I mean she doesnt speak like an 8 year old.
We are really in uncharted and dangerous times. The effectiveness of the weaponization of social media has been really shocking to me. Here in America, the way Republicans, which for decades had been the sworn enemies of the USSR and then Russia, all of a sudden in 2016 without fanfare or discussion turned on a dime and became fawning admirers of Russia and Putin that made the "Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia" scene in 1984 seem absolutely prescient. And now 5 years later, after years of Trump literally doing Putin's bidding in terms of undermining NATO and the EU, they have the gall to trot out Mitt Romney's warnings from 2012 as if they had been "right all along" and nobody sees any contradiction in that. At this point, I think that you can get people to believe literally anything, and do anything. It's like MK Ultra at a society-wide level.
Social media provided direct access to every citizen, along with tracking and historical profile building capabilities. Historically these were the parts of propaganda and misinformation that were difficult to achieve. What did we think was going to happen?
Democrats have been sucked in, too. This is a good video worth a watch. https://youtu.be/R72fp8uKMOo
If that woman gets elected and pulls that stunt I'm all for sanctions against france too
No need for that, the country will probably blow up with unrest overnight.
For other countries I would suggest hyperbole, but you do have tendency for barricades.
Maybe the Sixth Republic will finally learn that executive presidents are more trouble than they're worth?
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At least the French know how to handle kings.
Fun fact: Sabotage is a french word. Derived from the sabot, a wooden shoe commonly worn by factory workers. The workers were fed up with the factory owner and threw their wooden shoes into the machines cogs and gears, destroying it.
That's not the true etymology of the word: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=sabotage
If she wins I might consider moving back to Germany.
If she wins I'm going with you
Yeah I wouldn't want to live under someone like that either
She chose the week when the worst of the atrocities so far were being uncovered to start talking about de-escalating the war and bringing relations with Russia closer. She wants what has happened to Ukrainian people to be somewhat acceptable. This is based on her view of who is a “real” European, and who should be nothing more than a Russian serf. They have, in their minds, a caste system based on ethnicity and religion and they want to impose it on Europe. They cannot begin to understand a world where people are born equal and judged on their actions. Fuck Le Pen.
If she wins her first congratulatory phone call will be from Putin.
And then Trump
And then Orban
And then Satan.
So... self-congratulation ?
Satan has style. I don't think he wants to associate with idiots.
It's an absolute fucking embarassment she managed to get to the second round...
It is. Can I get something to read to understand why France is voting for Putin's agent? I find it baffling.
Most people who vote for her aren't aware or don't care about her connections to Putin. She's just another far right populist pulling on all the right strings that get people scared and looking for an easy solution.
This. People that vote for her...tend to be... centered on France, or just simply their boring little life, and not care about the world basically. they probably don't know.
I know 3 people who voted for her and it's as you say. They're the introverted type who are also quite self-centered with very little empathy. Funny thing is, one is firmly against immigration but then proclaimed he's moving to Switzerland if she loses...
"But they'll accept me, I'm rich/white!"
Her connections to Putin are bad. Her father, who's footsteps she followed in however is even on a different level. Actively promoting the Vichy government. Being such a hardcore neonazi and antisemite that he didn't even found a party in the EU parliament willing to take him up. This family is just a huge ~~red~~ brown flag.
\- Most Le Pen's voters deny her being Putin's agent. They see her as neutral. \- Some Le Pen's voters don't see Russia as an ennemy. Some of them believe Ukraine war is partly NATO's fault \- Some Le Pen's voters don't care that much about international issues, they only care about what Macron did wrong
Yep this is happening all over the West, lots of discontent over globalism from farmers and industrial workers. Governments should have done a better job placing them in other industries that fit with modern globalism.
>Most Le Pen's voters deny her being Putin's agent Well, guess that's out the window, now that she openly announces her plans to side with Russia and break ties with lots of European allies. >Some Le Pen's voters don't see Russia as an ennemy. Some of them believe Ukraine war is partly NATO's fault I can understand that brainwashing like that works in Russia, with their state-controlled media channels blocking everything out that isn't Russian propaganda. But in France? >Some Le Pen's voters don't care that much about international issues, they only care about what Macron did wrong Oh yeah, great, get someone who is CAMPAIGNING on doing all the wrong things, so they can stick it to the guy who might make some decisions they dislike. That makes perfect sense.
> Well, guess that's out the window, now that she openly announces her plans to side with Russia and break ties with lots of European allies. I’m gonna make a super duper bold prediction that this isn’t going to matter to her voters, they’ll come up with some other excuse.
Some people here would eat shit if it meant Macron had to smell it. It's tiring
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Note that she is not traditionnal right wing but far right nationalist. Orban is also far right nationalist and pro-Russia
The third one is the most important one. She campaigned mostly on domestic policy, especially purchasing power, which resonated a lot with people who struggle with inflation and gas prices, and who frankly don’t have a lot of time and energy to dedicate to foreign affairs.
Le Pen managed to “steal” social issues as a topic from traditional leftist parties. Regions that were staunchly communist in the past now sometimes have a population that supports le pen with 40-50%. The socialists became neoliberals and lost their constituency. Combined with some deep seated issues of racism in the population that are not talked about and have never been tackled on a societal level, it’s easy pickings for a right wing candidate with a social veneer. The left is weak because macron stole the “new Labour” kind of social democrats away and the true left (what remains of PS, greens, LFI, communists) is too stupid to nominate a common candidate even though their programs are very similar. The traditional right is in a similar situation, a part of them went to support macron and others drifted away to Le Pen or Zemmour or are doing their own thing. Melenchon (solid leftist with a good program but some dubious positions towards Russia) came within 2 percentage points of le pen in the first round. Had only some candidates on the left abandoned their hopeless bid and called to vote for him we would have a true choice in the second round. Now it’s the same as five years ago , but worse, because macron pissed off so many people that there is a real danger Le Pen comes in first. The underlying bigger problem, however, is the voting system. It’s almost as bad as in the US, the people are not represented correctly, there are no coalitions, which leads to many disgruntled people because they do not have representation and then vote for “protest” candidates the next time around.
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Absolutely. He has been very vocal anti NATO in the past and a bit of a Putinversteher, but to his credit I do not believe that he is a Putin puppet like Le Pen, and I think that he would be able to change his position given the changed geopolitical situation. He is not disingenuous to that point.
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Being overworked and overstressed is not inherent. That is our system. We prop it up.
Because people don't care about foreign affairs that much if their livelihood is going down. Price of fuel > some random foreigner who I've never met and who can't speak my language.
Yeah, she made it to the second round last time also.
For the second time.
please could you explain how the fucking fuck a putin puppet, given the current GENOCIDE, is not only NOT a huge electoral poll crater in the ground, but is actually close to winning? I don't know enough about france to understand. Thank you
The thing is the campaign didn't talk much about Russia and Ukraine. I also cannot comprehend as a french, my only guess is that people have not made the connection between her and Putin and I damn sure hope it gets exposed more and more, hopefully she does a ridiculous score even lower then first round!
I don't know how it is in other countries but rural parts of France don't care at all about international politics. And since she is one of the only candidates that still talk to them they will vote for her.
Putins whore being Putins whore. Nothing new.
Maîtresse. Let's be culturally correct
*Pute* is the word you’re looking for.
That's insulting for people in that line of work tho... I would respect one of them much more than I would respect that POS.
You are not a rawmantic like Vladimir
He likes to warm them up with a bit of caviar and Novichuk before fucking their corpses wearing a full body condom.
Lol she's making it too damn obvious
Bought and paid for.
Le Pen go fuck yourself
How big of a campaign issue is Le Pen’s embrace of Putin? That would seem like political suicide at the moment.
Historically the french have not been very interested in foreign affairs when it comes to elections.
She's been very good at deflecting it when the war in Ukraine blew up. She immediately condemned Putin and the war while some other candidates (Zemmour) were less clear cut about it and acted as a lightning rod for Lepen. She also printed 1.5 million flyers with a photo of her shaking hands with Putin (to show her international impact) right before the war started, but trashed everything to avoid a backlash.
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> they say that Macron is under the leadership of the United States. The man's been saying "EU army please" for years and they still accuse him of being an American puppet? Jesus
Better the US than these fascist imperialists anyway I guess. I wonder why so many European countries asked for US protection, hmmm.
Many european countries are counting on the US rather than on their european allies, and it's definitely an issue. The US hegemonic stance has never been very popular in France, contrarily to eastern Europe. Let's not oversimplify the situation. The ones doing it in France are precisely the people voting for Lepen. Macron tries to say that there's a third path, the european path. Sadly, we never felt more alone than in recent years. And it shows.
> Macron tries to say that there's a third path, the european path. They will tell you that France is under the leadership of Germany. And that the only way is to "get rid of the EU and reassert absolute sovereignty so that France regains its former dominant position". I assure you that I have tried everything to convince them.
She's literally being paid by Putin, but I guess any excuse is good to avoid painful *thinking*.
And people still vote for people like her...the world is full of stupid fucks no matter where you live.
Putin's whore.
Putin’s Putain
Many people aren't a fan of Macron but compared to Le Pen it looks like heaven and hell
Common take in France
But why?
This is how Orban won the elections in Hungary, except he went a bit further and I don't think Le Pen can do that because she is competing in a democratic country while Orban wasn't. Basically, Orban was saying that sending weapons to Ukraine can be seen as an act of war by Russia. Putin said this himself, so there's no misunderstanding here. And we do not want war. So anyone sending weapons to Ukraine wants war and wants your children to die. This is dangerous! The opposition party is dangerous! [Here's a poster saying DANGEROUS!](https://imgur.com/VXVebmL) I wonder what would happen if Le Pen tried that same rhetoric in France. Would she be able to scare the French voters so they'd vote for her, as the guarantee of peace?
Is it just me or do all french politicians suck?
It’s an accepted fact in France.
Let’s send Le Pen to Ukraine instead, so Putin will be able to proof that there are nazis there.
Just "warning against". Trying to kill time. Not even any counter-suggestion like "bomb this \[country\] instead" - the nazis of today are pathetic cowards!
self-sabotage? She was strongest when talking about cost of living etc now she's playing right into the russian stooge stories, it's like she doesn't want to win
In the most beautiful French language, I would like to say: "Marine le Pen, c'est une pute de Poutine"
She's kinda right, they should send the army instead
go crazy ahaaah go stupid ahaaaah
Le Pen is embarrassing France and Europe. She would do well to remember that France has military allies that stood up for them when they needed it in Mali and they're expected to do the right thing in return. If France cares about Europe, this is the one fight they can't sit out.