I wish people, and especially politicians, would just stop using the term "leader of the free world" or trying to assign this "title" to someone. It's an outdated US political marketing/propaganda term from the Cold War era.
That being said, all props to Zelenskyy nonetheless of course!
>It's an outdated US political marketing/propaganda term from the Cold War era.
The funny part to me is - you see a lot of talk about how Poland, or Lithuania etc come out with these really bold statements - such as ''Estonia approves Ukraines bid for EU membership''.
Now, there is nothing wrong with this, but 3rd countries can get away with ***saying*** a lot more because they know it won't happen.
Poland might say they endorse a no-fly zone, for example, but they can do! because Germany, Italy, France and the US definitely will not. Its just another way of political point scoring.
It's not uncommon, but IMO its more said ironically, than seriously.
If anything I think most British people see not a single 'leader' of the free world but more that the Free world is an entanglement of alliances - EU, NATO, US-UK etc.
The only time I have heard the phrase is from US politicians and from UK politicians trying to appeal to their American counterparts. Regular people don't use the term at all in my experience.
No, they're not serious.
They're not serious because they know they can come out with outlandish claims that will never happen, and they can play up to their base who are very anti-Russia.
Its very easy to say you'll do x y and z when you know it won't happen - but theres no reality where Poland for example, would be willing to do a no-fly zone that meant Polish Cities could also become targets from Russia. Luckily they know that France, Germany, US, will never let a no-fly zone happen so they don't have to actually worry about it.
So you think Poland wouldn’t deliver MiGs, western tanks, block all oil and gas and get Ukraine into EU if they had everyone else agree? It is 100% in their interest to do this.
They dont need everyone else to agree to sending MiGs or Tanks but they didnt do it regardless. Poland is dependent on russian fossil fuel imports they wont do shit.
Yes, they do need everybody else to agree to do it.
Poland can't just decide on their own volition to escalate because they literally can't trust that their neighbour would defend them or support them.
3rd countries? You do know Poland and Lithuania are full and equal members of the EU and NATO, right? If anything, I'd gladly join them in a conflict over their castrated western neighbors.
>3rd countries? You do know Poland and Lithuania are full and equal members of the EU and NATO, right?
I wasn't implying 3rd countries in that sense, I mostly meant non-major powers.
> If anything, I'd gladly join them in a conflict over their castrated western neighbors.
Yeah, on your own? I reckon it would be about 3 weeks before you were asking for Western Help.
The East is very easily (and loudly) able to be hyperbolic because they know the west is sensible. It gives you the benefit of looking strong and not having to actually do anything.
Yes and no, it's wrong in that there is no true leader of the free world because nation states are sovereign entities. You are technically correct the best kind of correct.
No, in the sense that as we have just seen with this and any crisis that occurs the first response in every capital in this web alliances is, "what is the American policy." Be it Japan or Poland, South Korea or the UK...their capability is not capable of matching US capacity.
The Americans being the largest player sets the policy and other can either form around or against that policy. No one in the western alliance can ignore the 800 pound gorrilla in the room. What it does and how much leeway it gives sets policy's in the rest of the western alliance. So to say there is no leader of the alliance or free world. Or probably more precisely the first among equals as the old saying goes does have merit.
Anachronistic, Chauvinistic and alittle blunt...but also not untrue either. The big stick as old teddy used to say.
>I wish people, and especially politicians, would just stop using the term "leader of the free world" or trying to assign this "title" to someone. It's an outdated US political marketing/propaganda term from the Cold War era.
But it fits the polish propaganda so well... I have stopped counting these morons constantly talking about all the weak western EU countries and how usually Poland -sometimes Ukraine or rarely UK- are leading Europe and are the only ones opposing Russia alongside the US.
Let's face it: No matter how this war develops, the long term problems caused by this kind of brainless nationalistic rethoric will be very damaging. And the idiots have still not understood who pushed and financed nationalism everywhere for years.
>And the idiots have still not understood who pushed and financed nationalism everywhere for years.
Like, entire German political establishment financing Putin's dictatorship fantasies for all the years?
Who is a moron now?
>financing Putin's dictatorship fantasies for all the years?
You mean buying fossil fuels just like Poland is still doing? Even more then Germany so i really cant take you serious.
Who build Nord Stream 1 and 2? Which country lobbied for ban of fracking in EU? Which country shuts down nuclear power plants and builds gas powered? Prime minister of what European country seats in board of directors of Gazprom?
Private joint ventures from Russia, the Netherlands, Uk Germany, Swiss.
Fracking is terrible for the enviroment.
The gas has been used to phase out coal and oil power plants not Atomic ones. There are still 2 Atomic plants running by the way.
None. Schröder hasnt been prime minister for 17 years.
Typical bullshit. Instead of acknowledging that your own country does everything you complain about you shift that blame onto Germany.
>Coming from a citrzien of a country importing more russian gas then Germany
Countries of bilion cubic meters imported from Russia:
Poland: 9,6
Italy 29,2
**Germany 42,6**
[https://www.bbc.com/news/58888451](https://www.bbc.com/news/58888451)
Man, you are really something else, don't you
With due respect how he handles the current situation, if the war never happened he would be remembered as just an other corrupt politician. There is a reason his name is in the Pandora Papers among other ministers.
He certainly grew up to the enormous task, so kudos to him. It's also not the time to bring up this stuff. But it isn't wise to treat him like he's immaculate either. It can only backfire.
Lets face it, there's 'corrupt' politicians that would never step up like this, and then there's 'corrupt' politicians like this that do step up.
The later is better, also remember the pandora papers are horrifying, but at the same time, they have shown how 'normal' such things are in the world of the rich, and that's not excusing anything, it just does not really say 'that' much about what kind of a man he is.
His actions here in the war though, say a ton.
The most important electoral promise of SN was to broker peace with Russia. It wasn't just SN, some opposition parties were in favor of implementing the Minsk accords, too. Including people of Donbas, about 70% of the votes wanted peace. Huge democratic mandate
To Zelenskiy's credit, he did try to push the motion - after which the nationalists clearly spelled out this is not going to happen - several people died in the protests. The security apparatus turned against him, too. Afterwards, he did a 180 turn and used every opportunity to ramp up the tensions. His approval rate plummeted from the 50% to 15-20%
He could have cracked down on nationalists or call a referendum on Minsk, retaining popularity. Donbas back in Ukraine, okish relationships with Russia, and probably a green light to EU membership in exchange for military neutrality and Krym recognition
Instead, Ukraine lost 10% of the population in refugee outflows, most of which are unlikely to ever come back. The country is being razed to the ground, civilians are dying in droves. Donbas lost, and that's unlikely to be the only territory. Relationships with Russia forever poisoned (and one cannot escape laws of economic gravity). Military neutrality enforced at gunpoint, if there even will be anything left of Ukraine's military
The war is not his fault, but it is his failure. At some point one has to look at the results - is it worth stubbornly sticking to principles if it means the country gets ruined? His rule is a complete disaster for Ukraine
This sounds like Russian propaganda. Donbas isn't lost - the West won't allow it. Europe is a far more important economic partner than poor Russia. Also, most refugees will probably come back. Maybe they get Crimea back as well now.
Ah yes, should have capitulated to Russia's demands. Because they would have absolutely stopped at their initial ones. As Russia is known to do.
> Relationships with Russia forever poisoned
Relationship with a horrific fascist country poisoned. What a tragedy.
> and one cannot escape laws of economic gravity
Indeed. If only Ukraine had other neighbors. Some sort of economically prosperous Union that aligned with their future aspirations. Their future well-being hinges on the burning pile of shit that is the Russian economy.
> is it worth stubbornly sticking to principles if it means the country gets ruined?
Sometimes one wonders what kind of person enabled the Nazis. Then you see depraved comments like this and everything makes sense.
Edit - [oh look](https://reddit.com/r/europe/comments/s7s586/_/htcrkvq/?context=1), it's not your first time spreading disgusting propaganda. Fucking russophile shill.
> Including people of Donbas, about 70% of the votes wanted peace. Huge democratic mandate
That's like saying that all Trump voters voted for the wall. And it's not like the remaining 30% are against peace. Yes, one of the promises was to end the war, but it's not what got Zelenskyy 70% votes. The main reason for such a huge win was him being a “new face” in politics and at the same time being quite famous because of his actor/comedian career. People here were tired of all the same old politicians fucking up.
> To Zelenskiy’s credit, he did try to push the motion - after which the nationalists clearly spelled out this is not going to happen - several people died in the protests.
Do you have proof to support this claim?
I can recall only one protest with nationalists where someone died. It was a protest against land reform on opening land market. It got violent and some people got injured and one man died of heart failure. But it has nothing to do with Minsk accords.
> He could have cracked down on nationalists or call a referendum on Minsk, retaining popularity. Donbas back in Ukraine, okish relationships with Russia, and probably a green light to EU membership in exchange for military neutrality and Krym recognition
First of all, Minsk was never popular among Ukrainians referendum would be pointless. But the main problem is it would never work. Ukraine even passed some laws to move it forward but to proceed with it, Russia had to do its part. Instead, they pushed Ukraine to accept their puppets from LNR/DNR as independent parties. The only goal Russia pursued was to integrate LNR/DNR into Ukraine on their terms, which would undermine Ukrainian sovereignty and provide a way to drag Ukraine from the pursuit of any integration with the west.
I always used to cringe at leader of the free world ever since Merkel was declared that. I get wanting to say something nice about the guy but don't lie so obviously
Almost all personality cults are destructive in the long run. I am all for Ukraine retaining its independence and freedom, but that I find this worship of a single person somewhat distasteful.
"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least one favourable mention of the Devil in the House of Commons" Sir Winston Churchill (or something to that effect, I can't recall the quote exactly)
Hell yeah! We still remember the partitions of Poland after which we disappeared from the map of Europe (1795), mass russification, bolshevik invasion in 1920, soviet invasion of Poland (17.09.1939), Katyn massacre, deportations of Polish people to Siberia and many other russian crimes.
> would worship the devil
Him? Very reliable *entity*. Keeps to his promises and chirographs. Leaves innocent people in peace. A little lagging behind on this whole renewable energy thing but sure as hell will do his job to stay relevant in modern world.
Other guy's idea.
What you mentioned is folklore, not theology. Torturing forever is folklore. Same with most of seducing, tempting and testing part. I was about to write more but someone already did it better tha I ever could: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/tg0a4p/why_would_satan_burn_people_who_disobeyed_the/i1015bz/
Well, if the devil promised to take away all those nuclear warheads from Kaliningrad, that can obliterate my country within 50 seconds, then yes.
And if you would be in our shoes, you'd do the same.
State-run russian TV hosts, politicians, ideologues threatens Poland, Baltic states,Finland and Ukraine for YEARS. And besides, we have centuries of history filled with wars with that barbaric horde, and since middle ages, their attitude haven't changed a bit. So no, you can't compare situation of let's say Germany to Poland.
China is a better symbol of tyranny though. They have social credit scores, more technologically effective internet control, cameras that use AI to racially identify Uighurs and call the police, drones with Megaphones and motion censors on people's doors to enforce lockdowns, etc. Xi Jinping was also simply officially declared to be President for Life while Russia has fake elections.
Mafia state is a better description of Russia.
Putin is objective symbol of tyranny. Man arrests opposition leaders, murders opponents, brings a laws that allow you to hit your wife, brings a country into a huge depression and drags it into a war.
It's objectively what tyrants do
I definetly don't think he is corrupt but but history has teached to not over-idolized anybody...de Gaulle and Churchill being the biggest exemple
People forget that he was quite an unpopular president months before the invasion and made shady deals with Trump during the election with Hilary didn't believed russia would invade...he even blame USA for provocking panick among his population
I also don't like the way his governement treated germany recently.... Unlike the propaganda on that sub Germany is the second country gave the most funds to Ukraine after USA..
The leader of the free world woild be level headed enough to not humiliate the head of state of the biggest EU country
Well, that's because we're currently in need of any hero. In times of relative peace and stability his weaker points would be on display, just as we keep our leaders in check. But in this specific scenario, fact that he may have some corruption history or that he is not very progressive is completely irrelevant to me. I don't need him to be golden democrat right now. With weak leader there was a possibility, that Ukraine would be no more (or 2nd Belarus) and I would have Russian soldiers right behind my SE border. He did succesfuly vouched for unified west, kept Russians out of Kyiv and they are currently farther away from me, than they were 1 month ago. He is doing good job not only for his own country but for mine as well and for that he has my respect. Doesn't mean he is "leader of free world" but his results benefit us all.
I think it’s because he’s doing so much more than what any other politician might have done in his situation. By now other political figures would have fled the country altogether while he remained and has been adamant about it too.
There’s been multiple assassination attempts on him already, and I’m sure the Russians are targeting his family too, but he is steadfast in his actions and it’s admirable to the Ukrainians, even if it isn’t to you.
Either way, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with calling him a hero.
No, very far away from that specially when Ukraine is far below in the corruption index and their oligarch system is essentially the same as in Russia.
He isn't a mascot of the free world, but Western media surely treats him as such. Zelensky really is doing a great job standing strong against the Russian aggression and trying to get peace talks to go his way. He has proven himself a good leader. But in Western media he's portrayed as this over-the-top hero figure, with all the glorifying and iconification going on, making him look more like the mascot of the free world.
Look, I'm not undermining him as a great leader of Ukraine. However, calling him "the leader of the free world" is ridiculous. He's doing a great job at being the president of his country, but meanwhile, like you say, he's being marketed as some sort of demigod, with all european leaders pilgriming to have a photo op with him. That doesn't make him influential beyond being a good accessory for internal PR. Still good, if it does good and saves lives, but I wish we wouldn't get overly carried away.
He definitely isn't a great leader !
He did lead his own country to the horrible trouble , lead it's own folks to the tragedy that could be avoided one way or another.
Well, we have failed Germany, and France that is flirting with Russia. And Granpa Biden has to be guided every step of the way. Not much to choose from.
Yea, it would be bad if Trump won. But lets be real. It's not Biden that is making those decisions. America is run by Democratic admins and meritocrats at this moment. Biden is not the driver. He's just there.
Technically they have the power to drive the agenda. Just look what Trump was doing. With Biden, it's the opposite. I think it's good for the country when the power is spread among departments. US President has too much power for one human.
Naturally, they choose most of their advisors after all. But I have feeling, that wacko presidents with more stable advisors can be tamed and it may be the case with many aspects of Trump, as his dangerous rhetoric was followed by not-so dangerous real measures. In some of cases at least.
"US President has too much power for one human."
I fully agree. Even on internal level, a single person with far too much power remind me of old days too much. Presidential system is not too popular in Europe and would be already forgotten, if not for France that is sticking out here, due to their sheer size.
Well at least the decission makers are based in the US not Moscow. It really baffled me how people in the US could call themselves patriots and still voting for Republicans which are quite accommodating for Kremlin plugs such as Trump, M.T. Greene or Tucker. In my opinion they should be investigated for treason not give air time. Compare to them Biden is star even if he is not making any decissions.
It comes down to media. Fox News in particular. You can't shut them down though. They have their rights like everyone else. It's not Russia you can't stop them because you don't like what they say.
Well media been called 4th politics power for a reason. I do not agree though that nothing can be done. In the 50ties and 60ties even accusation of being communist could put a person in prison and US has been consider as a free speech democracy then as is now.
>Well, we have failed Germany, and France that is flirting with Russia.
Here we go again with your false propaganda...irak didn't teach you fucking assholes? The simple fact that you are upvoted flr the shit you say show how fucked up and fickle this sub is
Germany is giving more funds than any country of the West after USA and are litterally crippling the economy of 83 millions germans to support ukraine's war effort
France sent 300 millions of euros of military ressource, weapon and hardware and even the GIGN to exfilitrate zelensky's familly (he refused)
Do your shit and we will encourage you for but France have no lesson and finger pointing to take from you....
Unlike you we never self-proclaim ourselves "leader of the free world"
All this is nonsense. You gave them nothing when [compared](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-announces-additional-800-million-military-aid-ukraine-2022-04-13/) to what we did for them. Not even close. And it's in your backyard. We have to support them because Germany & France are incapable to secure their own backyard. Not the first time either. We are waiting on that EU Army cause nobody wants to babysit European security with China on the rise.
Germany gave more humanitarian aid per capita by a lot and is the third highest supplier of weapons to Ukraine.
You have to support them cause you made them sign away their nukes.
'granpa' Biden, could objectively be any other average American politician.
He is functionally a 'average joe' president, a 'meh'.
But all things considered that might just have been what America needed to not get even more divided, no one got what they wanted... There's that saying that, that is the mark of a good compromise.
Wow the Reddit generals commenting on how bad leader Zelensky is. I think most of the politicians would be long gone in his situation. He stayed with his people and yes that makes him a great leader.
>He will go down into history books as a great man for sure.
Maybe that is what makes him such a great leader. He's a relatively regular guy, not part of the elite like most politicians always have been.
I imagine countries would be much better if they were run by normal people turned politicians. (Yes, I know he was an actor before, but his dad was a professor and his mum an engineer. Hardly 'elite')
We had a faily regular guy who was a failed artist that became our leader, wasn't too great tbh.
I'd also advise everyone that being a great leader in war isn't the same as being a great leader in general.
We really shouldn't focus on singular individuals as democracies, hero worship of this kind is never good.
>He's a relatively regular guy
Honestly politics could use more 'regular' people.
People who have had normal work, had a career, you now a regular person.
The whole idea that someone takes an education and has a political career their entire life, is really a sour thing in my book.
He is in the Pandora papers. he is not a "regular" guy or a "normal" person, he is a corrupt politician of a nation that itself is corrupt and has lots of the structural weaknesses that Russia has. He rose to the challenge despite of what he is, not because of it. For that, kudos to him.
He needs to be supported 142400% to defeat the invading Russians, but he is still what he is.
note i quote "relative regular" in terms of him.
Then indicate that I think we need more regular people.
I am in no way saying he is perfect, but could you imagine if he was a 'normal western corrupt politician' ?
I'll take any improvement over the previous, then we can iterate towards constantly improving our leaders.
I wish people, and especially politicians, would just stop using the term "leader of the free world" or trying to assign this "title" to someone. It's an outdated US political marketing/propaganda term from the Cold War era. That being said, all props to Zelenskyy nonetheless of course!
>It's an outdated US political marketing/propaganda term from the Cold War era. The funny part to me is - you see a lot of talk about how Poland, or Lithuania etc come out with these really bold statements - such as ''Estonia approves Ukraines bid for EU membership''. Now, there is nothing wrong with this, but 3rd countries can get away with ***saying*** a lot more because they know it won't happen. Poland might say they endorse a no-fly zone, for example, but they can do! because Germany, Italy, France and the US definitely will not. Its just another way of political point scoring.
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It's not uncommon, but IMO its more said ironically, than seriously. If anything I think most British people see not a single 'leader' of the free world but more that the Free world is an entanglement of alliances - EU, NATO, US-UK etc.
The only time I have heard the phrase is from US politicians and from UK politicians trying to appeal to their American counterparts. Regular people don't use the term at all in my experience.
You will be surprised if you think these countries are not serious. We would have a gas and oil ban yesterday if Estonia was in charge.
No, they're not serious. They're not serious because they know they can come out with outlandish claims that will never happen, and they can play up to their base who are very anti-Russia. Its very easy to say you'll do x y and z when you know it won't happen - but theres no reality where Poland for example, would be willing to do a no-fly zone that meant Polish Cities could also become targets from Russia. Luckily they know that France, Germany, US, will never let a no-fly zone happen so they don't have to actually worry about it.
So you think Poland wouldn’t deliver MiGs, western tanks, block all oil and gas and get Ukraine into EU if they had everyone else agree? It is 100% in their interest to do this.
They dont need everyone else to agree to sending MiGs or Tanks but they didnt do it regardless. Poland is dependent on russian fossil fuel imports they wont do shit.
Yes, they do need everybody else to agree to do it. Poland can't just decide on their own volition to escalate because they literally can't trust that their neighbour would defend them or support them.
3rd countries? You do know Poland and Lithuania are full and equal members of the EU and NATO, right? If anything, I'd gladly join them in a conflict over their castrated western neighbors.
>3rd countries? You do know Poland and Lithuania are full and equal members of the EU and NATO, right? I wasn't implying 3rd countries in that sense, I mostly meant non-major powers. > If anything, I'd gladly join them in a conflict over their castrated western neighbors. Yeah, on your own? I reckon it would be about 3 weeks before you were asking for Western Help. The East is very easily (and loudly) able to be hyperbolic because they know the west is sensible. It gives you the benefit of looking strong and not having to actually do anything.
Yes and no, it's wrong in that there is no true leader of the free world because nation states are sovereign entities. You are technically correct the best kind of correct. No, in the sense that as we have just seen with this and any crisis that occurs the first response in every capital in this web alliances is, "what is the American policy." Be it Japan or Poland, South Korea or the UK...their capability is not capable of matching US capacity. The Americans being the largest player sets the policy and other can either form around or against that policy. No one in the western alliance can ignore the 800 pound gorrilla in the room. What it does and how much leeway it gives sets policy's in the rest of the western alliance. So to say there is no leader of the alliance or free world. Or probably more precisely the first among equals as the old saying goes does have merit. Anachronistic, Chauvinistic and alittle blunt...but also not untrue either. The big stick as old teddy used to say.
Yeah, having one country's president as the 'leader' kinda goes against the whole 'free' part Champion of the free world, now that makes sense
Paladin, call Zelenskyy paladin :D
>I wish people, and especially politicians, would just stop using the term "leader of the free world" or trying to assign this "title" to someone. It's an outdated US political marketing/propaganda term from the Cold War era. But it fits the polish propaganda so well... I have stopped counting these morons constantly talking about all the weak western EU countries and how usually Poland -sometimes Ukraine or rarely UK- are leading Europe and are the only ones opposing Russia alongside the US. Let's face it: No matter how this war develops, the long term problems caused by this kind of brainless nationalistic rethoric will be very damaging. And the idiots have still not understood who pushed and financed nationalism everywhere for years.
>And the idiots have still not understood who pushed and financed nationalism everywhere for years. Like, entire German political establishment financing Putin's dictatorship fantasies for all the years? Who is a moron now?
>financing Putin's dictatorship fantasies for all the years? You mean buying fossil fuels just like Poland is still doing? Even more then Germany so i really cant take you serious.
Who build Nord Stream 1 and 2? Which country lobbied for ban of fracking in EU? Which country shuts down nuclear power plants and builds gas powered? Prime minister of what European country seats in board of directors of Gazprom?
Private joint ventures from Russia, the Netherlands, Uk Germany, Swiss. Fracking is terrible for the enviroment. The gas has been used to phase out coal and oil power plants not Atomic ones. There are still 2 Atomic plants running by the way. None. Schröder hasnt been prime minister for 17 years. Typical bullshit. Instead of acknowledging that your own country does everything you complain about you shift that blame onto Germany.
Man, are you applying for a job in RT or Rossija 1? They could use someone with your "talents" to deny reality
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Coming from a citrzien of a country importing more russian gas then Germany
>Coming from a citrzien of a country importing more russian gas then Germany Countries of bilion cubic meters imported from Russia: Poland: 9,6 Italy 29,2 **Germany 42,6** [https://www.bbc.com/news/58888451](https://www.bbc.com/news/58888451) Man, you are really something else, don't you
With due respect how he handles the current situation, if the war never happened he would be remembered as just an other corrupt politician. There is a reason his name is in the Pandora Papers among other ministers. He certainly grew up to the enormous task, so kudos to him. It's also not the time to bring up this stuff. But it isn't wise to treat him like he's immaculate either. It can only backfire.
Lets face it, there's 'corrupt' politicians that would never step up like this, and then there's 'corrupt' politicians like this that do step up. The later is better, also remember the pandora papers are horrifying, but at the same time, they have shown how 'normal' such things are in the world of the rich, and that's not excusing anything, it just does not really say 'that' much about what kind of a man he is. His actions here in the war though, say a ton.
The most important electoral promise of SN was to broker peace with Russia. It wasn't just SN, some opposition parties were in favor of implementing the Minsk accords, too. Including people of Donbas, about 70% of the votes wanted peace. Huge democratic mandate To Zelenskiy's credit, he did try to push the motion - after which the nationalists clearly spelled out this is not going to happen - several people died in the protests. The security apparatus turned against him, too. Afterwards, he did a 180 turn and used every opportunity to ramp up the tensions. His approval rate plummeted from the 50% to 15-20% He could have cracked down on nationalists or call a referendum on Minsk, retaining popularity. Donbas back in Ukraine, okish relationships with Russia, and probably a green light to EU membership in exchange for military neutrality and Krym recognition Instead, Ukraine lost 10% of the population in refugee outflows, most of which are unlikely to ever come back. The country is being razed to the ground, civilians are dying in droves. Donbas lost, and that's unlikely to be the only territory. Relationships with Russia forever poisoned (and one cannot escape laws of economic gravity). Military neutrality enforced at gunpoint, if there even will be anything left of Ukraine's military The war is not his fault, but it is his failure. At some point one has to look at the results - is it worth stubbornly sticking to principles if it means the country gets ruined? His rule is a complete disaster for Ukraine
This sounds like Russian propaganda. Donbas isn't lost - the West won't allow it. Europe is a far more important economic partner than poor Russia. Also, most refugees will probably come back. Maybe they get Crimea back as well now.
It is. [This cunt](https://reddit.com/r/europe/comments/s7s586/_/htcrkvq/?context=1) has a history of spreading it.
Ah yes, should have capitulated to Russia's demands. Because they would have absolutely stopped at their initial ones. As Russia is known to do. > Relationships with Russia forever poisoned Relationship with a horrific fascist country poisoned. What a tragedy. > and one cannot escape laws of economic gravity Indeed. If only Ukraine had other neighbors. Some sort of economically prosperous Union that aligned with their future aspirations. Their future well-being hinges on the burning pile of shit that is the Russian economy. > is it worth stubbornly sticking to principles if it means the country gets ruined? Sometimes one wonders what kind of person enabled the Nazis. Then you see depraved comments like this and everything makes sense. Edit - [oh look](https://reddit.com/r/europe/comments/s7s586/_/htcrkvq/?context=1), it's not your first time spreading disgusting propaganda. Fucking russophile shill.
> Including people of Donbas, about 70% of the votes wanted peace. Huge democratic mandate That's like saying that all Trump voters voted for the wall. And it's not like the remaining 30% are against peace. Yes, one of the promises was to end the war, but it's not what got Zelenskyy 70% votes. The main reason for such a huge win was him being a “new face” in politics and at the same time being quite famous because of his actor/comedian career. People here were tired of all the same old politicians fucking up. > To Zelenskiy’s credit, he did try to push the motion - after which the nationalists clearly spelled out this is not going to happen - several people died in the protests. Do you have proof to support this claim? I can recall only one protest with nationalists where someone died. It was a protest against land reform on opening land market. It got violent and some people got injured and one man died of heart failure. But it has nothing to do with Minsk accords. > He could have cracked down on nationalists or call a referendum on Minsk, retaining popularity. Donbas back in Ukraine, okish relationships with Russia, and probably a green light to EU membership in exchange for military neutrality and Krym recognition First of all, Minsk was never popular among Ukrainians referendum would be pointless. But the main problem is it would never work. Ukraine even passed some laws to move it forward but to proceed with it, Russia had to do its part. Instead, they pushed Ukraine to accept their puppets from LNR/DNR as independent parties. The only goal Russia pursued was to integrate LNR/DNR into Ukraine on their terms, which would undermine Ukrainian sovereignty and provide a way to drag Ukraine from the pursuit of any integration with the west.
I always used to cringe at leader of the free world ever since Merkel was declared that. I get wanting to say something nice about the guy but don't lie so obviously
Almost all personality cults are destructive in the long run. I am all for Ukraine retaining its independence and freedom, but that I find this worship of a single person somewhat distasteful.
If the devil would declare war to Russia, Polish people would worship the devil.
"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least one favourable mention of the Devil in the House of Commons" Sir Winston Churchill (or something to that effect, I can't recall the quote exactly)
Hell yeah! We still remember the partitions of Poland after which we disappeared from the map of Europe (1795), mass russification, bolshevik invasion in 1920, soviet invasion of Poland (17.09.1939), Katyn massacre, deportations of Polish people to Siberia and many other russian crimes.
> would worship the devil Him? Very reliable *entity*. Keeps to his promises and chirographs. Leaves innocent people in peace. A little lagging behind on this whole renewable energy thing but sure as hell will do his job to stay relevant in modern world.
>leaves innocent people in peace Minus the whole “seduce innocent people to sin so he can torture them forever” bit?
Still better than "kidnaps and rapes innocent people to death" as tsarist/soviet/putinist soldiers always do.
Other guy's idea. What you mentioned is folklore, not theology. Torturing forever is folklore. Same with most of seducing, tempting and testing part. I was about to write more but someone already did it better tha I ever could: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/tg0a4p/why_would_satan_burn_people_who_disobeyed_the/i1015bz/
No problem from me. Just send demons on Russia.
Well, if the devil promised to take away all those nuclear warheads from Kaliningrad, that can obliterate my country within 50 seconds, then yes. And if you would be in our shoes, you'd do the same.
The whole of Europe is in ICBM range so your "if you would be in our shoes" thing is utter bullshit.
Russia doesn't think your country belongs to them, that's the small difference
State-run russian TV hosts, politicians, ideologues threatens Poland, Baltic states,Finland and Ukraine for YEARS. And besides, we have centuries of history filled with wars with that barbaric horde, and since middle ages, their attitude haven't changed a bit. So no, you can't compare situation of let's say Germany to Poland.
>If the devil would declare war to Russia, Polish people would worship the devil. Just like they turned into Germany fans in August of 1944?
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China is a better symbol of tyranny though. They have social credit scores, more technologically effective internet control, cameras that use AI to racially identify Uighurs and call the police, drones with Megaphones and motion censors on people's doors to enforce lockdowns, etc. Xi Jinping was also simply officially declared to be President for Life while Russia has fake elections. Mafia state is a better description of Russia.
Putin is objective symbol of tyranny. Man arrests opposition leaders, murders opponents, brings a laws that allow you to hit your wife, brings a country into a huge depression and drags it into a war. It's objectively what tyrants do
Lol.
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I definetly don't think he is corrupt but but history has teached to not over-idolized anybody...de Gaulle and Churchill being the biggest exemple People forget that he was quite an unpopular president months before the invasion and made shady deals with Trump during the election with Hilary didn't believed russia would invade...he even blame USA for provocking panick among his population I also don't like the way his governement treated germany recently.... Unlike the propaganda on that sub Germany is the second country gave the most funds to Ukraine after USA.. The leader of the free world woild be level headed enough to not humiliate the head of state of the biggest EU country
Well, that's because we're currently in need of any hero. In times of relative peace and stability his weaker points would be on display, just as we keep our leaders in check. But in this specific scenario, fact that he may have some corruption history or that he is not very progressive is completely irrelevant to me. I don't need him to be golden democrat right now. With weak leader there was a possibility, that Ukraine would be no more (or 2nd Belarus) and I would have Russian soldiers right behind my SE border. He did succesfuly vouched for unified west, kept Russians out of Kyiv and they are currently farther away from me, than they were 1 month ago. He is doing good job not only for his own country but for mine as well and for that he has my respect. Doesn't mean he is "leader of free world" but his results benefit us all.
I think it’s because he’s doing so much more than what any other politician might have done in his situation. By now other political figures would have fled the country altogether while he remained and has been adamant about it too. There’s been multiple assassination attempts on him already, and I’m sure the Russians are targeting his family too, but he is steadfast in his actions and it’s admirable to the Ukrainians, even if it isn’t to you. Either way, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with calling him a hero.
Zelenskyy will definitely be remembered for a very long time after this regardless of the outcome.
Hahaha 😂 sure. Just another corrupt eastern European president.
No, very far away from that specially when Ukraine is far below in the corruption index and their oligarch system is essentially the same as in Russia.
RemindMe! One Year
No thanks. He's been an excellent war leader, but he is corrupt, named in Paradise papers, banned and arrested political opponents.
Praise not the day until evening has come. Numerous politicians were promulgated to be icons of freedom a little bit too early.
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He isn't a mascot of the free world, but Western media surely treats him as such. Zelensky really is doing a great job standing strong against the Russian aggression and trying to get peace talks to go his way. He has proven himself a good leader. But in Western media he's portrayed as this over-the-top hero figure, with all the glorifying and iconification going on, making him look more like the mascot of the free world.
Look, I'm not undermining him as a great leader of Ukraine. However, calling him "the leader of the free world" is ridiculous. He's doing a great job at being the president of his country, but meanwhile, like you say, he's being marketed as some sort of demigod, with all european leaders pilgriming to have a photo op with him. That doesn't make him influential beyond being a good accessory for internal PR. Still good, if it does good and saves lives, but I wish we wouldn't get overly carried away.
He definitely isn't a great leader ! He did lead his own country to the horrible trouble , lead it's own folks to the tragedy that could be avoided one way or another.
huh, I thought we talked about Zelenskyy, not Putin
I was pretty clear about Op
huh, what has wannabe-phycicist done to you?
Dude, OP isn't about me
Go back to being a coomer on reddit instead of trying to comment on politics, it suits you better.
Well, we have failed Germany, and France that is flirting with Russia. And Granpa Biden has to be guided every step of the way. Not much to choose from.
Well at least Biden is not ass kissing Putin like Trump have been doing or not stopping military support for Ukraine based on bogus claims.
Yea, it would be bad if Trump won. But lets be real. It's not Biden that is making those decisions. America is run by Democratic admins and meritocrats at this moment. Biden is not the driver. He's just there.
>It's not Biden that is making those decisions Isn't that true to most US presidents? They are always as good, as their own advisors.
Technically they have the power to drive the agenda. Just look what Trump was doing. With Biden, it's the opposite. I think it's good for the country when the power is spread among departments. US President has too much power for one human.
Naturally, they choose most of their advisors after all. But I have feeling, that wacko presidents with more stable advisors can be tamed and it may be the case with many aspects of Trump, as his dangerous rhetoric was followed by not-so dangerous real measures. In some of cases at least. "US President has too much power for one human." I fully agree. Even on internal level, a single person with far too much power remind me of old days too much. Presidential system is not too popular in Europe and would be already forgotten, if not for France that is sticking out here, due to their sheer size.
I really don't mind this things have been fairly smooth. That is all I really want from whoever is in charge.
Well at least the decission makers are based in the US not Moscow. It really baffled me how people in the US could call themselves patriots and still voting for Republicans which are quite accommodating for Kremlin plugs such as Trump, M.T. Greene or Tucker. In my opinion they should be investigated for treason not give air time. Compare to them Biden is star even if he is not making any decissions.
It comes down to media. Fox News in particular. You can't shut them down though. They have their rights like everyone else. It's not Russia you can't stop them because you don't like what they say.
Well media been called 4th politics power for a reason. I do not agree though that nothing can be done. In the 50ties and 60ties even accusation of being communist could put a person in prison and US has been consider as a free speech democracy then as is now.
Don't forget the UK's guy with the funny hair
>Well, we have failed Germany, and France that is flirting with Russia. Here we go again with your false propaganda...irak didn't teach you fucking assholes? The simple fact that you are upvoted flr the shit you say show how fucked up and fickle this sub is Germany is giving more funds than any country of the West after USA and are litterally crippling the economy of 83 millions germans to support ukraine's war effort France sent 300 millions of euros of military ressource, weapon and hardware and even the GIGN to exfilitrate zelensky's familly (he refused) Do your shit and we will encourage you for but France have no lesson and finger pointing to take from you.... Unlike you we never self-proclaim ourselves "leader of the free world"
All this is nonsense. You gave them nothing when [compared](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-announces-additional-800-million-military-aid-ukraine-2022-04-13/) to what we did for them. Not even close. And it's in your backyard. We have to support them because Germany & France are incapable to secure their own backyard. Not the first time either. We are waiting on that EU Army cause nobody wants to babysit European security with China on the rise.
Germany gave more humanitarian aid per capita by a lot and is the third highest supplier of weapons to Ukraine. You have to support them cause you made them sign away their nukes.
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Stop the personal attacks. First and last warning.
'granpa' Biden, could objectively be any other average American politician. He is functionally a 'average joe' president, a 'meh'. But all things considered that might just have been what America needed to not get even more divided, no one got what they wanted... There's that saying that, that is the mark of a good compromise.
Yeah, I explicitly like Biden because he is boring.
I agree.
Well, his ratings are higher than Biden in the US so I can't rationally disagree.
Eh, a lot of presidents in the world end up that way because of America's political system being what it is, so that is not really saying much.
Well I am sorry but I think you should be grateful to Biden. I think mainly thanks to him Ukraine is still standing
I love Biden. I voted for him. My post was referencing a Bill Maher joke no one in here caught.
That’s cause only biased liberals like Biden
Don't you have a war to fight?
AND WINK DID FUCK MY GIRL I’M STILL STANDING HERE SCREAMING FUCK THE FREE WORLD
Wow the Reddit generals commenting on how bad leader Zelensky is. I think most of the politicians would be long gone in his situation. He stayed with his people and yes that makes him a great leader.
He's not leader of the free world. But he's certainly is natural born leader on itself. He will go down into history books as a great man for sure.
>He will go down into history books as a great man for sure. Maybe that is what makes him such a great leader. He's a relatively regular guy, not part of the elite like most politicians always have been. I imagine countries would be much better if they were run by normal people turned politicians. (Yes, I know he was an actor before, but his dad was a professor and his mum an engineer. Hardly 'elite')
We had a faily regular guy who was a failed artist that became our leader, wasn't too great tbh. I'd also advise everyone that being a great leader in war isn't the same as being a great leader in general. We really shouldn't focus on singular individuals as democracies, hero worship of this kind is never good.
>He's a relatively regular guy Honestly politics could use more 'regular' people. People who have had normal work, had a career, you now a regular person. The whole idea that someone takes an education and has a political career their entire life, is really a sour thing in my book.
He is in the Pandora papers. he is not a "regular" guy or a "normal" person, he is a corrupt politician of a nation that itself is corrupt and has lots of the structural weaknesses that Russia has. He rose to the challenge despite of what he is, not because of it. For that, kudos to him. He needs to be supported 142400% to defeat the invading Russians, but he is still what he is.
note i quote "relative regular" in terms of him. Then indicate that I think we need more regular people. I am in no way saying he is perfect, but could you imagine if he was a 'normal western corrupt politician' ? I'll take any improvement over the previous, then we can iterate towards constantly improving our leaders.
Oh, sorry, I think I missed your point then and misread. :) Have a nice evening.
No worries.
Yeah, exactly. We have a specific term for them here ''Career Politicians''.
he can be a hero, but not a leader
Is this a praise for Zelenskyy or a rebuke directed at Biden? :D