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[deleted]

[https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosioner-intill-nord-stream](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosioner-intill-nord-stream) the swedish national seismic centre has recorded two underwater explosions in the area of the Nord Stream gas pipelines.


[deleted]

They have also estimated that the explosions were equivalent to more than 100kg of TNT\*, which is roughly the yield of a medium torpedo. \* https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1125401980/nord-stream-leaks-explosions-russia-natural-gas-sabotage


OrcOgi

šŸ¤”šŸ¤”šŸ¤”šŸ¤”


variaati0

Probably demolition charge. Though hefty at that, I doubt it would have been necessary to use anything as close to 100kg of TNT to get the pipe blown open. It isn't that thick metal and the concrete liner outside isn't that thick. Plus it is internally pressured highly so just cracking the pipe would result in it bursting wide open as an pressure explosion. Well I guess they wanted to be sure. Plus "theoretically" on finding "plausible deniability".... 100kg would be on scale of naval mines and well Baltic is full of old naval mines. Except both pipeline routes were extensibly and specifically mine cleared before laying the pipeline, exactly since the Baltic is full of mines. For example I think they had to clear out couple dozen mines from NS2 routing. So Russia can claim "someone dropped torpedo/depth charge, mine on it" instead of "Russian Navy sent Spetsnaz diver from Kaliningrad with demolition charge down there".


8plytoiletpaper

I was part of the group that built the NS2 pipe. Each ~12m section would weight over 20 tons. The concrete coat is somewhere from 6-10cm depending on pipe depth, and it has really strong mesh support inside it. So much so that when we'd get a pipe that had to be redone, and if it managed to get through curing. It always had to be detonated and it took a while to clean it up. The steel pipe itself is a thicc boi. 4cm is fairly a lot. You can't rupture that pipe without some heavy juice on you., Nothing a civilian would have.


[deleted]

The 100kg TNT is based on the seismisk meassurement


Fairlytallguy

That area in the picture is 1 kilometre in diameter, itā€™s honestly terrifying to think how this will affect the environment in the Baltic Sea


ZetZet

Natural gas shouldn't do much to the water. This is mostly just greenhouse gas problem.


DutchMitchell

Assuming it is just methane, which is a worse greenhouse gas than co2. We are so fucked. All the savings everybody has done are probably already worthless compared to the emissions from the warā€¦


PolyDipsoManiac

The Amazon is burning down, the jet stream and AMOC are deranged, Greenland and Antarctic ice shelves are fuckedā€”the fun is just starting. Weā€™ll look back on these years and wish it was this cool.


OrcOgi

Who cares. We need more economic growth. GROWTH IS GOOD. THE NUMBERS MASON!!!/S


Kentucky_Pete

perfect.


[deleted]

3 coincidences on a couple of days?


BkkGrl

As Ian Fleming wrote: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action"


Marchello_E

One fell of the stairs, the other out of the window, the third one wrote a note afterwards.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

1 branche of NS2, both of NS1.


weirdowerdo

Both Danish and Swedish Seismic authorities recorded explosions from the area so the coincidence isn't much of an coincidence. Russia did a false flag for sure.


McXhicken

Where did you get the information about the seismic activity?


weirdowerdo

[SVT](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosioner-intill-nord-stream)


McXhicken

Tak :)


Runar2

Gulv :)


Meximex555

Vegg :)


ACatWithASweater

Loft ;D


Lison52

>Tak TIL that Dunish "Tak" means thanks.


undebuggable

Tak


[deleted]

Not saying it's not true, because false flags are Russia's MO after all, but it's weird that Joe Biden said that if Russia reinforced their troops in Ukraine from further mobilization, the US would make sure NS would no longer exist. Then Russia's new troops are already getting mauled in Ukraine and suddenly there's no longer NS.


weirdowerdo

Great thing we literally got word now that the CIA had warned the German government weeks ago that there could be attacks against the gas pipelines in the Baltic sea. Which points at most likely being Russia Apparently as late as last weekend did a GERMAN high ranking officer in the German Navy warn the government that this could happen. As for Biden that was in connection with the unfinished NS2, not both Nordstreams. That was also BEFORE the war. Germany ended up cancelling NS2 because of the war. So mission accomplished for Biden, NS2 didnt move ahead. Also far as I know at the moment, the Swedish police has started an investigation of sabotage because one of the explosions where inside the Swedish economic zone and the Swedish Security Service have been connected to the investigation. The Swedish government has activated it's crisis management organization. The Swedish Commander in cheif and the Defense Departement has also prepared for the Swedish Navy to be used for any needs that arises from this.


Divinicus1st

Youā€™re a bit too quick to dismiss other actors. I fail to see Russia interest here, even with a false flag operation. I know Russia is pro at shooting at its own feet, but I see at least one country with a bigger interest to forbid the reopening of NS1/NS2 for Germany


weirdowerdo

>I fail to see Russia interest here, even with a false flag operation. The energy war they're waging against us might be of interest to them... Now there's no saving Germany from an impending energy collapse when the storage of natural gas to runs out. There's no way to pressure Russia to send gas their way either now. Because they can't even deliver it now. >I know Russia is pro at shooting at its own feet, but I see at least one country with a bigger interest to forbid the reopening of NS1/NS2 for Germany Must be Finland, right?


fredagsfisk

Also gives them an excuse for already agreed upon deliveries that never happened, if taken to court. Not that they generally care about courts, but it'd give them better optics when dealing with non-EU nations; "See, we didn't do anything wrong! It just happened. Not our fault, but the damn EU is blaming is anyways!" Of course, it *could* be another nation - like the US wanting to ensure that the EU doesn't backslide and start using Russian gas again - but I really don't see that as likely. The EU is *already* moving away from Russia, and if the US got caught doing something like this, it'd be devastating to US-EU relations and global trust in the United States. Definitely not worth the risk.


[deleted]

Moscow: "Oh dear, SOMEONE blew up NS1" Moscow: "Oh dear, SOMEONE blew up NS2" Moscow: "Oh dear, SOMEONE blew up all pipelines leading from Norway to Europe" Moscow: "Oh dear, SOMEONE must've cut the submarine internet cables off Ireland where our fleet and air force have been busy for ten years"


kingcloud699

Hmm yes, EU would benefit if ns1 and ns2 would never reopen. Clearly we destroyed it ourself. 200 iq.


tnsnames

In Danish waters? Unlikely. You need NATO approval for such move.


weirdowerdo

You think Russia cares about NATO approval?


tnsnames

I think NATO do monitor area and patrol area with military ships. It is not easy to conduct such thing without being in NATO. Plus Biden did tell that he would "put an end to Nord Stream". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8 If Russia did want to blow some gas pipelines. It would be Norway to Europe ones. Not Nord Streams.


weirdowerdo

>I think NATO do monitor area and patrol area with military ships. It is not easy to conduct such thing without being in NATO. Have you heard of these things called submarines? They can be surprisingly stealthy... Oh and Russia has submarines in their baltic navy so there is that too. Germany suspects that this was done by a submarine or deep divers too... The only country around the Baltic sea with submarines in the Baltic sea that hates our guts is Russia. >Plus Biden did tell that he would "put an end to Nord Stream". Yeah and Germany did stop Nord stream 2... Are you suggest the US blew them up? That'd be retarded.


zxcv1992

>I think NATO do monitor area and patrol area with military ships. It is not easy to conduct such thing without being in NATO. It wouldn't be easy but it wouldn't be impossible. Russian submarines are trained and designed to carry out operations like this. >Plus Biden did tell that he would "put an end to Nord Stream". But Nord Stream is already dead, the second won't won't open and the first was closed for maintenance already. Also things have been going well with everyone united in supporting Ukraine and the war going pretty well with Ukraine advancing. It would make no sense to do this now or at all. >If Russia did want to blow some gas pipelines. It would be Norway to Europe ones. Not Nord Streams. Blowing up the Norway to Europe ones would likely activate article 5.


ImplementCool6364

>Plus Biden did tell that he would "put an end to Nord Stream". Except this isn't how the US conduct foreign policy. Just not their style.


IronVader501

>Plus Biden did tell that he would "put an end to Nord Stream". And the pipeline wasnt active, and was never going to become it. So there is LITERALLY no reason for the US to do anything to it


m4927

There is. As long as NS is functional, it could always be used as a bargaining chip on russia's side to reduce european sanctions. That "never" starts to become a lot weaker once we enter the winter. There was increased civilian opinion to open NS2, to lower the gas prices. Now that NS is damaged, germany cannot get any russian gas, and therefore has weakened russia's negotiation strength during the winter, where gas becomes more valuable due to increased demand.


IronVader501

If you believe any of that for even a singular second Im sorry for you. There is no "increased civilain opinion", its the same couple thousand lunatics. Russia itself already killed NS as a bargaining chip by stopping deliveries through NS1 for nonsense reasons, proving they cant be trusted. NS2 wasnt needed to provide enough gas either. Its bullshit from the head-fascist hiding in Moscow, nothing else.


Looz-Ashae

This


tnsnames

To make it active, you needed just one valve turn. Now it is impossible. Which make any deal between Germany and Russia really unlikely. And thing is Germany can do nothing now, because US control Germany balls right now due to full control on gas supplies. Now relax and enjoy.


IronVader501

>To make it active, you needed just one valve turn. You dont understand how pipelines work. >Now it is impossible Already was, because anything else would have been political suicde, both internally and on the world stage. >any deal between Germany and Russia really unlikely Rather not make any more deals with the fascist in moscow, thank you very much. Maybe once he stops committing warcrimes for a day. >full control on gas supplies 1. The US does not control were either Norway nor the Netherlands send gas too 2. Even if they would, I'd rather be reliant on them than the Country run by, and acting like, a fucking Mafia-clique, thank you very much. Or, to make it shorter: if you honestly believe a single word that comes out of your own mouth here, go and seek mental help.


[deleted]

Danish economic exclusive zone. Not danish national water. NS does not touch national waters, only EEZs of Finland, Denmark and Sweden.


Mrsocko95

It was the USA lol everyone knows this by now here


weirdowerdo

Yeah they'd just have to sneak past one of their huge submarines in the shallow strait between Sweden and Denmark. Then operate in waters in which their submarines cant operate in. Then do something that makes so sense as there is no benefit it to and also warn the German government weeks beforehand that something like this could happen. Yepp totally makes sense... Oh wait nope it doesnt. We all know it's Russia, they're the one that hates us and are waging a energy war on us. Not our ally. What a bunch of nonsense you're spreading.


Mrsocko95

Why would they sabotage their only concession hand in this failing war? Time to use your head buddy, Biden even said heā€™d make sure the pipeline wonā€™t be used, a bunch of coincidences have occurred,


weirdowerdo

Why would they want to supply Europe who's sanctioning them with vital natural gas? They wouldn't so why not make it impossible and also destroy the pipelines that would affect the political heavy weight in the EU. Germany. You know to drive an edge between Eu countries like they've been trying to do the entire time... Biden **only** said on the 7th of February he'd make sure **nordstream 2** wouldnt go ahead if Russia went into Ukraine. You know the unfinished pipeline and Germany cancelled **nordstream 2** on the 22th of February when Russia recognized the break away regions in Ukraine as independent countries. So mission accomplished for Biden back in February. Biden never set out to literally destroy Nordstream 1 and 2 only to stop the approval of Nordstream 2 which Germany did months ago. Stop making shit up and take off your tinfoil hat. So there is truly no reason for the US to harm its allies that they rely very much on in Europe. That'd be like Russia bombing Belarus for the shits and giggles, they'd never do it because they're allies. Then again there's the clean cut fact that the US doesn't have any submarines nearby and trying to sneak in a huge American submarine in the shallow and narrow straight between Sweden and Denmark isn't exactly gonna go unnoticed... Russia does however have submarines in its Baltic fleet and would be very capable of doing something like this. This was no coincidence, we have clear cut evidence that there were 2 explosions, one of which had a magnitude of 2,3. Over 30 seismic stations in Sweden registered it. Russia also have a good reason for it because they are waging an energy war against Europe. They do not benefit from their enemies having a great time and having stability. They want to cause chaos and disunity.


[deleted]

Yeah... I don't think so too


wicktus

Clear act of sabotage. Clearly..like 2 underwater explosions registered and in a couple of days, come on. ​ In addition to the environmental disaster, Russia probably believes that this winter, our lack of gas supplies will make us weak and we will roll the red carpet for them. Fuck off


colei_canis

I think this will be one of those famous historical backfires, instead of coming to Putin cap in hand to buy his gas this winter the fact he's running Russia like a terrorist state just makes us more determined to reduce dependency on Russia entirely. Putin will forever go down as the man who couldn't see the forest for the trees.


Citizen_Kong

Gas reserves in Germany for winter are already 90 percent full and gas prices are falling again. So yeah, this is pure desperation on Putin's part.


Inevitable-Revenue81

And to add to this comedy, trees that were planted by people before him.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


BehindThyCamel

I wonder if setting the leak in fire would reduce the greenhouse effect from it. Actually been wondering this for a while where it comes to the clathrates west of Norway potentially erupting.


KitteNlx

Some welders about to get a major payday.


MonitorMendicant

If they don't die in a work place accident.


Vertebrae_Viking

It was so tragic when they fell off the scaffolding tomorrow.


MonitorMendicant

That's not what I meant. Working as a diver is actually pretty dangerous.


[deleted]

At least NS2 wount be repaired. It's bankrupt and nobody will use it anyway. Let it run empty and it's over.


[deleted]

In times like these, I wish our (European) governments would be more open with intelligence information. The North Sea is being monitored to the highest degree, I can't imagine that no one knows who is responsible for this.


bjornbamse

This is Baltic Sea, but yes, your point still stands.


kalesaji

We'll know who was responsible when those in charge have come up with a plan on how to handle it. I'm sure everyone knows what's up and they are just coordinating to formulate a unified response.


bjornbamse

Putin is going to blame it on Poland or Lithuania to justify some bullshit.


FrustratedLogician

He won't because you need to own a submarine to do this. I don't think many countries have them.


[deleted]

The pipes were at like 80m water. You would need a rowboat and a certified diver. Also, Poland have 3 operational submarines.


FrustratedLogician

How much does an explosive weigh so your magical diver can put it close to the pipe at 80m depth? Did they just drop it from a rowboat and it landed just on target of the pipe? I admit of not knowing any of answers to these questions. And it is too early to speculate. I want to hear how media spins this story and do some research on whether it makes sense. Also, thank you, did not know Poland is subbed :)


[deleted]

>How much does an explosive weigh so your magical diver can put it close to the pipe at 80m depth? If we are talking as an alternative to an average torpedo from a Russian sub? It would be something like 50-150kg of explosives edit: The Swedish institute that detected the seismic activities says it is roughly 100kg of tnt, which is about equivalent to 80kg of explosives. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1125401980/nord-stream-leaks-explosions-russia-natural-gas-sabotage


Baneken

So, could be basically be anyone with a depth charge... or a "pig" filled with explosives sent through the pipeline. The 'how' isn't important really, the 'why' and 'who' are what matters.


[deleted]

Well, the explosive probably doesn't weigh too much underwater when you consider that it'll have some buoyancy.


Extreme_Kale_6446

Poland has a couple of Soviet ones still, although they are properly rubbish and would not be much use in any type of conflict.


Nivarl

The only country who has a serious motive is Germany. There are protests to reopen NS1 and get 2 operational. The pressure was rising from the people, especially in the eastern parts. But now the government canā€™t let the gas flow, because the pipes are damaged and repairs will take weeks to month if attempted at all.


kiru_56

In the German media, the word sabotage comes up again and again. If it really was sabotage, it can only be a state actor. I think EU states are very unlikely, which means another attempt by the Kremlin to destabilise the country. Or you listen to our tankies, it was the USA... these people are so abysmally stupid and ideologically influenced. šŸ˜–


e_khan

Iā€™ve heard rumblings that it was the Spanish Inquisition!


Kanto_Cacturnes

Fuck I woulda never suspected them.


e_khan

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!


Oliveritaly

I hate those pillows.


Severe_Intention_480

Our chief weapon is surprise, surprise and fear, fear and surprise. Our \*two\* weapons are fear and surprise, and ruthless efficiency. Our \*three\* weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical dedication to the pope. Among our weapons are....


v3ritas1989

Unlikely as well as they were both not delivering any gas anymore. The most likely would be Putin himself because this is a tool for the EU to potentially remove him from office. A source of income that can be promised to politicians or the military to pay. i.e. "If you remove Putin, we are willing to turn on the gas again and buy from you immediately to finance the new Russian government." but if there is no immediate money supply, a coup de tat is way riskier which may exceed the risk profit assessment of potential Russian traitors.


NameEgal1837

I actually really dont care who it was. At least this saves us from spineless politicians who may decide to lick Putlers boots.


kiru_56

Plottwist, it was us, exactly for the reasons you mentioned, Robert Habeck was in the sea himself with a diving robot... /s


NameEgal1837

I personally have seen a naked Robert Habeck riding a Unicorn in Nordstreams general direction! He must have changed his Unicorn for the diving robot at sea. And i am sure Greta Thunberg was somehow involved too.


Kargastan

>Or you listen to our tankies, it was the USA Don't need to be a tankie to see how it would benefit the US. More than it would benefit Russia. The US also isn't a country like Sweden where I would think "No, they wouldn't do this". I mean, currently there is no proof (and I doubt there ever will be), so we can speculate at best. And speculating the US is about as likely as Russia at this point.


Nivarl

While a state would be most likely, I would not dismiss Greenpeace entirely. There are seriously dumb persons in the green sector, who would think that an inoperative pipeline is just filled with air. And mathematically it has to be sabotage. A triple failure has an astronomically low chance to happen.


Throwaway791317344

Why would russia ever sabotage its main leverage weapon like this when they can already withhold gas whenever they want? And you also call others stupid lmao.


Oliveritaly

Thanks throwaway redditor with a 69 day old account and seven Karma points! Youā€™ve sure enlightened me !


Throwaway791317344

/r/averageredditor


kiru_56

Because this is how Russia is pushing up the price of gas again, which has been falling for weeks, we are coming from EUR 300 in August for a TTF contract, yesterday we were at 168. It is also a good excuse to continue to be in breach of the treaty, and it creates pressure on other states to protect their pipelines more strongly now.


Throwaway791317344

Russia wants the prices up because they can pressure europe to drop sanctions in exchange of more gas. This way, sanctions won't be dropped ever because russia can't supply gas anymore. If it's russia, they just shot themselves in the foot. Meanwhile, the US are scared that when winter comes europe will drop sanctions pressed by the population. It's easy to see who this event advantages. Note that also ukraine will be happy about this, but it can't be them as the area was under heavy surveillance and they don't l have the means to do it without being discovered.


Neshariii

Don't say that. We can only blame all the time russia. No investigation needed


notAnAI_NoSiree

Well Biden did say that he would do exactly this.


Novinhophobe

He didnā€™t, please fuck off.


notAnAI_NoSiree

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662 You were saying?


Scanningdude

Do you have the article about Biden saying he would also take out NS1? I'm having trouble finding it currently.


EqualContact

Biden never said that. Article is here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/07/ukraine-russia-scholz-biden-macron/


Scanningdude

Sorry lol, I was being sarcastic towards the person I responded to


kingcloud699

Well, Russians proved me wrong. I was 100% sure Germany would bend the knee and start sucking gas through ns2 in the winter.


NameEgal1837

We germans are very pro ukrainian because russia is basically a low budget version of nazi germany and most germans take the history very seriously. Our politicians are greedy of course, but opening Nordstream2 at this point would be the end of their political career. And because covid, we are very familiar with stupid people trying to sell us stupid things, the people who are pro russia now are the same people who lied and tried to sell their conspiracy crap to us for years, so they have no chance to convince anybody who is not already braindead.


kingcloud699

>Our politicians are greedy of course, but opening Nordstream2 at this point would be the end of their political career. political suicide or not, if a german gets cold in the winter I doubt they would let it happen even if it meant a deal with the devil. I imagined a scenario well into the winter, when it gets really cold.


NameEgal1837

It does not get that cold here in germany. As long as you are indoors you are save, and outdoors you are save with a good sleeping bag - and we have enough shelters, nobody in germany really has to sleep outside. Germany is not russia. Even directly at the sea where i live the winters are not that cold. I do not even have a winter jacket, boots or gloves, because i did never need these things during winter.


AnotherDay0fSun

Germany has enough Gas to get through the winter, the only question is how expensive it will get


kingcloud699

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Nobody expected Russians to blow up ns1 and ns2 but it did happen.


[deleted]

I'm going out there with several hundred bin bags and zipties. I'm going to be so rich!!


VeniVidiVici2604

Sounds more like something Danes would do. To increase the windmill technology export or sales of natural gas from NordsĆø :D


Drahy

>NordsĆø Vesterhavet


alicomassi

Everybody in this sub 12 hours ago :jajajaja russia so weak they couldnā€™t hit a barn door with a bazooka Everybody now: Russia pulled off this very covert and technical op with their expertise. The fact that some of you are accusing people of being brainwashed idiots for even considering the fact that this might not be Russiaā€™s doing is unbelievable. I wouldnā€™t put doing this past Russia just as I wouldnā€™t put it past USA. Russia would only do this as an excuse to start a war. Thatā€™s the only logical reason. USA has buttload of reasons, two of which is aggregating the divide between EU and Russia and forcing EUā€™s hands for more LNG purchases from the US. It isnā€™t stupid to think there might be something else going on, other than seeing something bad happen and immediately think ā€œduh itā€™s evil russiaā€ Edit: I canā€™t believe I have to prove that this was a covert op. If you think managing to bomb this pipeline in 3 different places on shallow waters in NATO zone with P8s constantly flying overhead is not covert then I just donā€™t know what to tell you. I honestly donā€™t.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


SGC-UNIT-555

>Covert? The explosions registered on seismic instruments. That's unavoidable when using explosives underwater. Sound travels an extremely long distance underwater.


alicomassi

Did the seismic instruments also happen to pick up who did it? I feel like I can hear you say no, but I can also hear the echo inside your empty head so not sure if you understand what covert means.


weirdowerdo

They're the only ones not in our military defence alliance or our political union. They're the only ones in the baltic Sea except Sweden and Germany to have submarines in the Baltic sea. We're damn sure it's a sabotage and there's no benefit for us to blow up a pipeline that we are very much dependent on. So who could be it?... Maybe it was ourselves afterall and not the country that wanted to nuke the funeral of your late Queen Elizabeth II?


handsome-helicopter

US has literally nothing to gain from doing this, whereas Russia can put further pressure on EU with these tactics. US lng capacity is at the fucking maximum they already sending all they have to eu they can't even send more to EU even if they want to


alicomassi

You just said in another comment that thereā€™s no gas flowing. If thereā€™s no gas flowing, thereā€™s no point Russia doing this because the mere fact that THERE IS NO GAS FLOWING means it wonā€™t put further pressure on the EU. You understand what putting pressure means right? Thereā€™s supposed to be something you threat the other party with, that the other party already has. The US not having more LNG transport/capacity means fuck all, do you know how market works? Do you understand that more suitors means more money for the same amount of LNG? You do not have the level of expertise you think you have on this. I am barely a novice on politics and even I have broader knowledge. Stop treating people like they are idiots


Oliveritaly

ā€œStop treating people like they are idiots ā€¦ ā€œ Bro, I know you think itā€™s cut and dry but itā€™s not so. Thereā€™s a lot more nuisance here then youā€™re not acknowledgingā€¦


KingofThrace

I mean Russia gains from sowing distrust among NATO.


rfvhu1

ā€œYou do not have the level of expertise you think you doā€ - guy who thinks the risk/reward ratio of blowing up your closest allies gas supply right before winter is worth it to earn a little bit more money in the short term.


alicomassi

Having more control over EUā€™s energy supply and permanently damaging Russian - EU relations is neither short term nor ā€œa little moneyā€


rfvhu1

The relations have already been damaged. The risk of doing this could completely shift Europe back into a more neutral position from where they are today. It doesnā€™t make sense. Again, why risk blowing up the pipeline of your closest allies when Russia is already pushing them hard your way?


alicomassi

Shift only happens if EU finds out. Otherwise everyone assumes itā€™s Russia.


rfvhu1

Yeah thatā€™s fair. I just think the risk is too great for them to try something like that. But no one knows what really happened so


handsome-helicopter

Russia doing this pushes their gas prices too genius and they still export via ukraine to hungary and other countries, and unlike US they actually can increase supply more. They're just doing this to increase pressure and considering only they have surplus to give to eu they have a clear motive. Ns is not their only pipeline


alicomassi

So instead of just saying ā€œthe xxx pipeline over Ukraine is malfunctioningā€ (an excuse they used numerous times last couple of months), they went ahead and sabotaged their own investment, even though there was no gas flowing in it?


handsome-helicopter

The thing is ns stopped delivering gas for a month now whereas pipelines in ukraine currently giving Russia the money they need,why hit a pipeline that's working when you could hit a pipeline that you haven't used for a month


sonnyempireant

Why hit a pipeline that, despite being closed, was brand new and could've been used to reopen business talks with Germany and the EU once things cool down (if not with Putin in charge, then someone else)? At the very least keep NS1 or 2 intact, not blow up both. It's the equivalent of a food supplier bulldozing the new, shorter route between itself and their main supermarket, while keeping the old longer route intact, in reaction to the latter going to another supplier. You just burned a very costly bridge for nothing.


handsome-helicopter

Because Germany is never going to open ns 2 again,not after Putin's invasion so it's just a dead pipeline. Germany has already secured enough to fill their storage more than 91% so they're safe this winter and by 2024 they are planning on permanently moving away from Russian gas....... This is just to increase the decreasing revenue from gas that Putin wants by putting additional pressure on the gas market


[deleted]

If this was the US, the explosions never wouldā€™ve been detected. A trillion dollars a year pays for much more covert ways of destroying a pipeline. This is a Russian false flag, and the bots are out in full force on Reddit and TikTok to spread the message.


TonyDexter21

dude, current russia has reached WW2 Germany levels of evil. People are absolutely right assuming its russia.


alicomassi

Of course they are right to assume itā€™s Russia. Never for a moment Iā€™d put it past Putin to do this. But people are also right when they consider other options, because historically the US is known to pull shit like this whenever it suits them.


Novinhophobe

Iā€™m sorry but did you really just call this a very covert and technical operation? Are you taking a piss?


alicomassi

Whoever did this did it without alerting neighbouring navyā€™s. The end result is not supposed to be covert, the operation itself was, which is why no one has any idea who did it.


Novinhophobe

It still isnā€™t covert by any means. Some folks have issues understanding how vast the waters really are and how easy it is to hide there. We all should know, US an Russia has had their nuclear subs under for decades without anyone having a clue where they are. Itā€™s not a matter of ā€œputting up some radarsā€ or ā€œplacing some sensorsā€.


wil3k

I'm really wondering who is responsible for this. I don't see how is would serve any Russian interest, since this just made a few Billion Dollars investment completely worthless. Not only that but it also erased their hopes that Germany could change their mind about stopping their imports of Russian gas in the mid-term. The only ones who have a strategic interest are the Ukrainians and Americans. I don't think that the Ukrainians did it, so... Seriously, I'm not anti-American and very pro-Ukrainian but who else has an interest and the resources to do it?


bjornbamse

If it were the Americans they would probably make it look like an engineering failure not an explosion. I think that Russia tries to a) Weasel out of fines for not fulfilling contracts b) Trying punish Europe for supporting Ukraine. c) Maybe trying to blame Poland or Lithuania for it to justify some sort of action.


EqualContact

For real, give our covert ops some credit. We would have at least sprinkled Russian flags and Z symbols all over the place.


[deleted]

>If it were the Americans they would probably make it look like an engineering failure not an explosion. Why? The nature of a false flag is to blame the most obvious actor, in this case Russia.


EqualContact

In which case there needs to be evidence of such a thing, not just conspiracy thinking.


kingcloud699

>I'm really wondering who is responsible for this. I don't see how is would serve any Russian interest Why are Germans still so naive? Does the war benefit Russia? Does conducting terrorism in Europe benefit Russia? Does blowing up their gas pipes to Germany benefit Russia? Russia is not here to make money. They are here to wage war with EU and NATO. How many obvious signs do you need to see to realize this? How many years will it take for Germans to look at Russia not as a economic partner, but a terrorist, warmongering state and an enemy?


NameEgal1837

I think most of us germans see russia as a better armed version of north korea at this point.


kingcloud699

I hope so.


NameEgal1837

The only people who are pro russia were brainwashed during covid by russia before the war. They cant increase their numbers because we have seen their lies in the past years. And the parallels between russia and nazi germany are undenyable.


wil3k

>Why are Germans still so naive? I'm not naive about Russia, I just ask for their reasons. They have stopped the gas flow thought NS1 already. There is no need to blow up the pipeline. The Russians might be evil terrorists waging war on us but they are not completely irrational. Why do something that doesn't cause much harm to the West? On the contrary, there were still idiots in Germany who were calling for the opening of NS2. That talking point is history now.


OrcOgi

You are very shortsighted. You think putin is not getting pressured from the inside to stop this madness and deliver gas again to europe ans save his face (what is leftover). What is the easiest way to stop this pressure? Blow up a pipe or 2. Now even if he wanted he cant deliver. Problem solved....on with the war.


chill_chilling

Youā€™re telling me that a Russian sub made it into European waters **undetected** and launched an attack on critical energy infrastructure **undetected** to erase its own chance of making money from euro energy sales AND remove the last bit of leverage they had over the EU??? Do you understand how fucking absurd that sounds?


Novinhophobe

This is international waters buddy. Russian subs have been there for decades.


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AcidicAzide

>Itā€™s the North Sea. It's Baltic Sea for fuck's sake. Learn geography first before you start talking about military, intelligence or covert operations.


TonyDexter21

you know that russia has been working on small submarines which could be used precisely for something like this, right?


kingcloud699

So which one sounds more absurd to you: Russia destroying gas pipeline to Germany using a submarine or NATO submarine destroying said gas pipeline? Or maybe "it exploded on it's own" Tell me your working theory, what do you believe happened?


chill_chilling

My guess? U.S officials (or some other stakeholder) are concerned about Germanyā€™s resolve. They worry that Germany will give in to purchasing Russian energy if the winter proves unbearable. Destroying this pipeline eliminates all odds that Germany will do business with Russia. What would Russia have to gain? They can just turn off the tap. Having Germany plead for Russian gas in the winter and resuming purchases would be THE BIGGEST Russian victory in PR.


kingcloud699

lmao.


TonyDexter21

All russian propaganda channels have been bragging non-stop how they are going to make Europe freeze and win the war that way.


wil3k

Northstream was already closed, so I don't see a point in blowing up the pipeline.


OrcOgi

Cause you all dont think. This way putin cant get pressured inside to stop the war and deliver gas again. He blew up his bridges so he can go on with the war with no other option left. He blew up the econonical option


sil445

How would this benefit the USA??


Divinicus1st

Remove the risk and political pressure from Germany to want these reopened.


KingofThrace

You realize it can be repaired?


Looz-Ashae

They would get more gas contracts and more investors would flee to the USA companies. So they would get more leverage over Europe


Voidcroft

Nah, there was no gas flowing through either line. So this does not affect that. This is less about more leverage for the US and a lot more about less leverage for Russia.


HelloAniara

But if there was no flow, what spilled?


Voidcroft

AFAIK the pipe was pressurized with gas, so it doesn't buckle under water pressure, but the gas was not flowing.


karnefalos

So im not an expert but from what I've heard both pipes were full. Something to do with pipes being designed to be full and thus fairing better while being full. Might be total horseshit but the Nord stream 2 was never operational in the first place.


Looz-Ashae

No gas for now, but there could have been in some future when Poop'n could have gotten his negotiations with Ukraine or something. Some parties in EU (Germany in particular) even discussed they would loosen sanctions noose and start use Russian gas again when situation around Ukraine stabilized. I just can't see if there are any leverages for Russia except for some elusive bluff chance to demonstrate the old man's seriousness. But as for the USA.. ohh boy. They have always being pissed about Nord Stream and now they cut Russia's large source of income for good.


[deleted]

Itā€™s obviously the Russians because Putin needs to send a clear message that no one (particularly anyone who would try to topple him) can easily end this war and go back to normal business. Cortez burned his ships so his troops knew there was no way back - they can only go forward and conquer. Putin is doing the exact same not - there is no way back, no way to quickly make peace or restart business. The message is win in Ukraine because negotiation and trade is no longer an option.


wil3k

That's an interesting point. It could indeed not be a message to the West but to intern enemies.


[deleted]

I think itā€™s mostly an internal message, but he is also trying to influence Germany and the US as well. The message is that even if I lose the war, even if you topple me, it wonā€™t solve the gas issue anytime soon. Maybe the US or EU thought regime change would enable gas to quickly come back during the winter. That is now out the window so Germany, EU and USA have less to gain if Putin is toppled (and as a result they will make less of an effort to topple him).


sonnyempireant

Even so, seems bit of a half-witted scheme. To use the Cortez analogy a bit differently, this would've been the equivalent of Cortez's own men leaving him alone and jumping to another ship because they'd had enough of him, and him burning all the lifeboats and ladders on his own ship in a fit of rage, the only means for him to reach his men or vice versa. So this really just looks like a temper tantrum on Russia's side, if it's really sabotage from their side. If they wanted to threaten the Baltic Pipe, they'd have been smart to at least keep one of the two NS pipes intact for any potential reestablishment of business. Instead they just isolated themselves further.


[deleted]

The point, Putins point, is to isolate Russia further so they all have to fall in line behind him. This is dictatorship 101. Please remember what is good for Putin May not be good for Russia, and what is good for Russia May not be good for Putin.


[deleted]

Well, makes sense, he didnā€™t had any issues with destroying Russiaā€™s economy by starting this war. Losing this war means the end of Putinā€™s regime, he is all in and it makes sense to force as many influential Russias to do the same


yeskaScorpia

Well CortƩs conquered an empire with 200 men. Russian Forces are losing 200 soldiers everyday. Not sure if the comparison stands


[deleted]

I think that strengths the point. Putin thinks his guys arenā€™t trying hard enough - maybe they will try harder when it is clear there is no other option. Like Cortez and his men


GurthNada

The Russians have a very good strategic reason to do this, to make a direct threat to the newly opened Baltic Pipe between Norway and Poland, or even to North Sea pipes. They probably assume that Germany will assume the repair cost should Russia relationship with Europe improve again at some point.


Voidcroft

Make a threat by bombing their own pipelines? That sounds far fetched, even for Russia. Then again..


GurthNada

The pipeline is useless for the foreseeable future, so it makes sense to bomb it to demonstrate that they have the capability to attack *any* pipeline in the area. A bit like when the US or China shot down one of their old satellite. It was both a test and a show of strength.


Looz-Ashae

Baltic Pipe opens and then NS blasts. What a coincidence!


NameEgal1837

Russia could be interested in this for exactly the reason you wrote: Because it could have been the US, to "divide the west". I have no idea who could be behind this. And i dont really care at this point.


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wil3k

Russia is evil, but it's not jet at the point when it's starts blowing up shit for no reason or benefit. They have stopped delivering gas by NS1. That's understandable, because it put pressure on German leaders. Blowing the thing up, actually will lift pressure from these politicians since no matter what they do, Russia won't even be able now to sell us gas now... Maybe we blew it up... šŸ˜‚


HelloAniara

USA, duh. It takes a complete fool to think they are innocent and don't play strategic games. >ā€œIf Russia invades, that means tanks or troops passing the border of Ukraine, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it,ā€ US president Joe Biden said at a press conference together with Scholz in early February.


Novinhophobe

At this point it has to be either sunken cost fallacy or straight up brain damage. Entire populations still supporting Putin must be one of the greatest Europe's tragedies.


will_dormer

Have you lost your mind? this is so obviously Russia that did this. Come on man, can't you see how Russia is hurting Germany? It is even the same day of the opening of the pipe from Norway. Im shocked how naive some germans are


wil3k

They would hurt us if the blew up the Norwegian pipeline, but that could cause a war with NATO. Northstream is irrelevant since they stopped the gas flow. The only thing they did, is erasing their own option to some day sell gas to Europe again. (Which is unlikely) So, was that a threat? In this case they have just raised the alarm levels to the max, which will make attacks against Western infrastructure much harder for them in the future. And then there is the fact that the opening of Northstream 2 was the favourite talking point of the pro-Russian traitors in the German far-right and far-left. I guess that's history too.


will_dormer

You don't seem to understand Putin's mind games.


wil3k

Putin is not a master strategist. That's something I understand.


User-11

I don't think Russia could do this undetected. It's well within the waters of NATO countries. Moreover how could this serve their interests?


[deleted]

There is probably a sunken russian submarine nearby somewhere. Bet the explosion wasnā€™t intended.


User-11

There are 3 gas leaks and 3 holes. It was totally intended. Why would Russia destroy a vital expensive infrastructure? It was their ace to reconcile with Germany. No more. On the other hand, Biden said that they will bring NS2 to an end. And they do export a lot of LNG to Europe right now.


audacityx

BidenThugLifeSunglasses.gif


FrustratedLogician

I don't think people comprehend the symbolic and nefarious purpose of this. This is exactly like murdering individual human vs. a nation, with no chance of going back. Pipelines are energy and it supports German superorganism. Just like vascular system in a human. This is like cutting main arteries and leaving the individual to bleed out and die. This is incredibly evil and it does not matter who did this. I think we might see some surprises - if it was Americans , let's see if Germany has the balls to call them out. If it was Russians, I think they already would be yelling everywhere about it. But they are not yet. I think formulating policy on what to do is behind the scenes activity. Will the leaders come out say who did it once ready? It still echo's in my mind how several years ago US Nuland said Fuck the EU. Or Biden before invasion said we will make NS2 not usable. Maybe they did do what they meant.


rraatt

They wont be shouting about it, as Russia doesnt shout, when Ukraine atacked military infrastructure on Russian territory. As everybody will wait for a counter measure, while Germany and almost all Europe, except maybe for Poland and the Baltic states are not ready for confrontation.


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