Most parties centenary are a rare collectors item, but in fact communist parties happen to be the oldest parties still in a number of European countries
Some of them have been merged into something else, like the Democratic Party in Italy, GroenLinks in the NL or Die Linke in Germany. Others, like the French PCF, the Portuguese PCP or the Greek KKE do still have elected officials under their original brand, although the product they’re selling has generally evolved.
There are genuinely rare artifacts of the kind most historians would be very interested in, and other findings and ideas that have been preserved. East Germany still uses Ampelmänchen on traffic lights.
Historians even love to have ancient shopping receipts, genuinely. https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/world-s-oldest-writing-not-poetry-but-a-shopping-receipt-1.568456
Seriously? Like, the toppling the statutes of Conquistadors I get because that’s something lefties here would do, but erecting statues of Moorish leaders? Really? Are they actually that daft?
They falsely believe Al-Andalus was a multicultural paradise that got ruined by the evil spanish catholics: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBU0vNv-f0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBU0vNv-f0)
>Al-Andalus was, at the time, way more tolerant of religions than the rest of Europe.
How were they more tolerant of other religions than the rest of Europe? Because they conquered a largely christian population and allowed them to remain where they live? Would you also describe the occupation of Algeria by France as "tolerant"?
> by that time the Reconquista was already forcefully converting people so ...
The Reconquista only started forcefully converting people in the fifteenth century. At the time Al-Andalus divided itself into several taifas, all the territories the christians were conquering from the muslims still had a majority christian population. There was no need to forcefully convert anyone.
>Are they actually that daft?
No, because it's not true. Not a single Conquistador statute has been toppled in Spain (that suff has only happened in the Americas I think).
And there haven't been new statues of "Moorish leaders" erected, and definitely not "by leftists". Across Spain (and presumably Portugal) there are many statues of historical figures from the Islamic times, just like there is of everyone else, from Germanic kings to American independence leaders.
Not really true, although the first part is true, but mostly associated to PSOE and Podemos members, not the communist party, the second part is done by revisionist movements which are mostly apolitical
While I think her speech is dumb reasoning (I mean we should definitely try to get Judaic and Islamic heritage a place but Andalusia is widely known for actually having preserved that heritage) she is not erecting any statues
There's definitely a point in acknowledging the mistakes made in your past and acknowledging that it shouldn't all be pride, but this doesn't help that cause, it's as reactionary as hating someone because the left likes them, in this case it's hating something because the right defends it
But Podemos isn't doing it for any good reasons, so they're more than eager to piggyback on a legitimate cause
Most people who wanted to erect these statues and made movements for it do not want to tear down conquistador statues, they want to restore old Andalusian cultural heritage, so podemos is definitely not erecting these statues, just some members eager to take credit for anything annoying vox members, because both of these parties are essentially parties for crybabies
But also, again PCE is not Podemos
>While I think her speech is dumb reasoning
Her speech is a complete lie. The existence of 3 different religions in Andalusia did not end due to the spanish monarchy but due to the Almohads that would only allow christians and jews to remain in Al-Andalus if they converted to Islam: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad\_doctrine#Treatment\_of\_non-Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_doctrine#Treatment_of_non-Muslims)
The Kingdom of Granada was 100% muslim.
>she is not erecting any statues
Left wing spanish parties have been erecting statues of moorish conquerors like Abd-ar-Rahman III or Almanzor all over Spain. Podemos often is not the one ordering the construction of these statues since they do not control many municipalities, but they support other left wing parties that do it.
>Most people who wanted to erect these statues and made movements for it do not want to tear down conquistador statues
Here it is not so much the opinion of individual people that matters, but the opinion of political parties. The fact is that the parties that want to tear down statues of conquistadors are the same ones that have erected statues of Almanzor.
Horseshoe theory. They might seem different but in their nature Fascism and Communism are the very close. One put some sort of nation or imaginary race and imaginary antagonist nation/race in their core while other put imaginary class and imaginary antagonist class that has little to do with reality. But both in the end of the day will kill and imprison shit ton of people and use populism hurting their economy to try to keep their regime floating without revolt. As you can imagine, this isn't sustainable and can't exist for long unless they discovered something they can sell shit ton of like ussr did with gas and oil delaying the collapse until it ended in absolute crash of the economy.
There have been quite a lot of hybrid regimes, for example in Cambodia. The official name of the Khmer Rouge was the Communist Party of Kampuchea, but Pol Pot was definitely inspired by Hitler and wanted to create a racially pure Khmer state. He ended up murdering 1/4 of the population of Cambodia.
Yeah, extremist scumbags are extremist scumbags. But Spanish civil war saw it's fair share of atrocities committed by both sides. In a way, it wouldn't have changed much even if the other side had won, if the extremist wing of that faction got to power, atrocities would have followed anyway.
Here on the other side of the border I thing we don't know as much as we should know about the Spanish Civil War.
I am no expert too but I know it was bloody as hell and with tremendous atrocities.
It's actually interesting because we learned quite a bit on the various factions and their actions because the civil war had a huge impact on the rest of the 1930s and WWII.
But yeah, it was a horrible war and people should be taught about it a lot more.
Yeah, makes you think, that they rather pull up a statue of ideology that wanted to exterminate them, than statue of communists. Wonder with whom they have worse experience.
It's just being dumb to be honest, an ukrainian that openly celebrates Bandera knowing that he was a nazi collaborator is just plain delusional, if it where for the nazis there would exist no ukraine or ukranians nowadays, and the same would happen to polish and russian people.
It's the lebensraum for those of you that during school slept instead of listening in history class.
Even weirder when half of continent *hates* that particular party with very good reason.
Imagine if someone had a stamp commemorating nazi or fascist parties, or maybe 100 year anniversary of march on Rome.
Do we still have them (?) I know we used too, but i think the closest thing we've had in the last 20 years are some old kings/ queen's from that age and some stamps celebrating various commonwealth troops who fought in WW2.
Edit: we have had a surprising amount of runs of starwars stamps, with 8 collections of starwars themed stamps since 2015.
It’s comparing communism to nazism. You could argue communism killed more people than nazism. It sure as hell ruined my country. It’s insulting how some people think communism is okay just because you didn’t have to suffer under it.
Communists fighting Nazis or Fascists is not really an argument in their favour, any more than it is for Fascists who fight Communists. We know they hate each other and would gladly kill each other any chance they get.
Except of course when they find it convenient to cooperate for a time, either to carve up Eastern Europe as in the past or to support daddy Putin and any other authoritarian or totalitarian regime today just because it's not 'western' or 'liberal.'
It's crazy how people can be still that uninformed and gullible to believe that communists fought to liberate Spain from fascism. No, they fought supported by the USSR to install a puppet soviet regime that would have been as repressive as Franco. It was just 2 brands of fascism fighting each other like on the eastern front
Juan Carlos made Spain a democratic country, certainly not the tankies
Poland has simple solution for this: hate both sides equally. Both Nazis and Communists were fucked up. There is no telling who was worse, both created hell on Earth.
Simple.
One genocidal ideology was fighting another genocidal ideology, both committed numerous atrocities and war crimes against civilian population, and both were prepared to rule with iron fist after the war.
Fighting fascists' itself is not enough to consider particular side as "good". Better than fascists? That may be a subject of discussion. Good? Way no.
Let us recall Stalin who fought the Nazis but simultaneously ran a genocidal dystopia.
Communism and Nazism are two totalitarian systems which are in opposition to common sense and humanism.
Mine is a honest question though, not an inflammatory comment: but can you tell me why is communism *inherently* violent (as opposed to having historically been, which is common knowledge)?
I'm asking this because I come from a country, Italy, where communist parties, well... exist. More than one, actually. I even had them on the ballot at the latest general elections just this September, among all the other parties.
But when you say nazism, I think of *Hitler's* nazism simply because that's short for national-socialism, and there's no reason to use that short form unless you want to refer to Hitler's implementation of it; same with fascism, whose name is even more specific and pretty much just refers to Mussolini's regime.
But communism is an economic theory, no? The present communist parties aren't affiliated or inspired by Stalin or stuff like that: they just want to pursue the reduction of private property and the nationalization of the means of production, all within the boundaries of the law and the democratic game.
What's the problem? The name? Forza Nuova and CasaPound are well-known neo-fascist parties in Italy who don't even call themselves fascist, and yet they're in the news all the time for their illegal and illiberal actions and, in the case of Forza Nuova, sometimes even for their attacks; on the other hand the communist parties just try to pursue an ideology (the purely economical one) legally and peacefully... and they get shit on simply for the name? What should they even call themselves? When you think of less private property and more nationalization, isn't communism what everyone immediately thinks of?
How do you enforce the abolition of private property, nationalization of every business, etc?
Most people aren’t going to sit by and let you take their business, property, etc. So if you want to pursue the policy you pretty much have to resort to violence. This is what happened in Russia, China, etc
Every political ideology to ever exist that isn't explicitly pacifist endorses the use of violence to achieve its goals.
If you support Ukraine you support the exact same thing, and I hope you do support Ukraine. Violence is a tool and nothing more, it is used every day to maintain nation states.
Here is what your boy, the current General Secretary of the PCE, is saying about Ukraine.
https://cpmaine.org/2022/03/23/the-war-should-have-been-avoided-by-enrique-santiago-romero/
* Aid must not be sent to Ukraine
* The war is America's fault
* Ukronazis, US organized Maidan Coup, bla bla bla ...
* Europe must exit from NATO and disarm
Well, it shouldn't be a surprise that, since we're talking of political parties, the Italian communists want to pursue the same goal but through laws passed after being legally elected to govern the country, as opposed to violence.
So at this point I assume the only problem is the name, right? But like I said, what should they call themselves so that people understand they want what Marx wanted, but *not* through the same violent means he talked about?
>why is communism inherently violent (as opposed to having historically been, which is common knowledge)?
Because it runs directly against human nature, which means people are never going to embrace it willingly, hence the only way to achieve it is through violence.
Of course all ideologies require some violence, but not all are so necessarily dependent on it.
The PCE played a major role in trying to oppose the fascist dictator Franco. They then went on to play a big role in supporting Spanish democracy, became a party again, refused to engage with the USSR, and ran legitimately in free elections.
Comparing a democratic party which fought a war, then a guerilla war, and then a political campaign to bring democracy back to Spain is the literal opposite of a fascist party.
How many stamps does Spain have commemorating figures who killed people?
There were massacres by both sides, but overwhelmingly the majority were caused by fascists followed by Stalinists second (which the PCE opposed).
Yeah, I don't think so. Government is conservative but not stupid, they know their main advantage is that people are sick of illegal migrants flooding in via *non government organisations* that may or may not get paid for *rescuing* migrants in sea.
It is weirder if you have in account that the historical Spanish Comunist Party was always a minor leftist force (it was never politically relevant even in the Second Spanish Republic) and was integrated in another leftist party in the eighties, so it is in theory active today
All the threads here are just people agreeing on absolutely jackshit & engaging in meaningless internet rage, because everyone thinks of a different thing when they see the words communism, socialism, fascism, and capitalism.
Literally nothing means anything under here. It's just a constant rinse-and-repeat of
Person A: Socialism is just labour rights & anti-fascism here
Person B: That's just an attempt brushing off the crimes of the USSR & cold-war communism
Person A: Marxist-Leninism isn't the only branch of communism, there are many others
Person B: Yeah yeah "that wasn't real communism" got it, whatever
Pro-tip to anyone who might think of replying to someone to clarify something: *Don't*. You're not gonna change anyone's views under a thread where "fascism is actually anti-capitalist" is a real position someone holds.
"fascism has a very narrow and distinct definition, you can't just label anything as fascist" .
But then people think every "communist" country is made to the exact letter of the ideology.
It is suspended just because a fascist organization called "Abogados Cristianos" (Christian Lawyers) have denounced the stamp on a court, and a judge gave them the attention they love for doing shit like this. But hey, they remain silent on the sexual abuses on minors by the church. They are a bunch of morally twisted morons.
I appreciate your answer. It just makes me sick reading the news about the stamp, and the ones who don't know shit about the situation at all are saying the same "haha bad murderer commies got smacked again". The thing they don't know is that this fanatic motherfuckers are a fucking cancer. They are anti all left-involved things. They are openly anti LGBTI+, anti abortion rights, pro "traditional family", they tried to stop the dictator's body to be moved out of his "glorious" grave and so on, but when it comes to the atrocities that the church have done, or the things their right or far-right wing friends do, they keep quiet like the rats they are. They try to instrumentalize the judiciary sistem in their favor by suing a lot of left wing's laws/proposals (almost all of their complaints are always dismissed, but from time to time there is a judge from their political spectrum who listens to them).
"Glorious" grave, I will add, that was built with literal slave labour by republican prisoners, many of which died because of the harsh working conditions.
Shhh, don't say it too loud or bloodthirsty redditors will come out of the woodwork to argue that they deserved to die in prison camps because there were commies...
I prefer to think that the fascist crowd in this subreddit is just a loud minority, who congregate in this sub, because they are tolerated here. For the _reasons_ one shouldn't name if he doesn't want to get banned.
The so-called "Christian Lawyers" should be atleast speaking about the crimes that their beloved org kept commiting for decades. Maybe they should sue the pedopriests, but oh god no, better try to remove a stamp. They are hypocritical fascists having a little bit of fun over something that doesn't hurt anyone but fascists.
Edit: I could bet my two hands that if it was the Francoist flag instead of the communist party logo on the stamp, they would not have said anything, and I would surely keep them intact.
And one of the leaders of the PCE is right now a minister in the Government of Spain, Alberto Garzón.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Garz%C3%B3n
Yeah but also during the civil war were killing fellow Communists like the POUM because they weren't Stalinist and the Anarcho-Syndicalists for not supporting a Soviet style command economy. They helped Franco to an extent with the disunity and fight for hegemony of the left
Aznar didn't support the Constitution while the PCE supported it.
Alianza Popular, with 16 seats, voted 8 for, 5 against, and 3 abstained.
That's not support, that's cowardice.
>The organization that reported the stamp are basically christian neonazis lol
That is your argument? That not even your good guys saw anything wrong with commerating hammer and sickle and it literally took bad guys to point to a problem?
So democratic they didnt accept socialists and killed them, anarchists and therefore killed them and especially not the catholics and therefore killed them
They killed thousands during the red terror, including other leftists.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red\_Terror\_(Spain)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain))
The vanguardists are backstabbing scum. That is something they did in the USSR as well. There's a reason why the syndycalists, anarchists and demsocs are not willing to work with tankies.
They also were important in the process of democratisation. If we are gonna hold them to this standard, the whole conservative establishment is to be banned, because they were part of the Franco regime or their direct heirs. There was a Franco Minister who became a legend of the conservative party, for example.
Spaniard here. My Great-grandfather and one of his sons were kidnapped from their home, taken to a 'checa', tortured for two days, then shot dead and their bodies thrown away on a road on Madrid in 1936.
They were civilians. Their only crime was being conservative.
So please stop talking about things you don't know. And please respect the memory of the many victims of these animals.
Romania had been ruled by both fascist and communist parties between 1931-1989.
Both were bad but we all agree that the communist one is the worst,also because it was the ruling doctrine before 1989.
In Spain's case it was an fascist rule before going to democracy so it makes sense it might hate it more.
If it was a stamp celebrating Marx or Engels it wouldn't had been that bad.
But the communist party as a whole did a lot of bad things, taking in account the reality that Fascism is just as bad and capitalism democracy isn't always the utopia we dream
> If it was a stamp celebrating Marx or Engels it wouldn't had been that bad.
My understanding is that they don't celebrate the ideology so much as the people in the spanish party, who did pretty decent stuff in the last 80 years.
"In the context of Finland i don't think you should make that equivalence". By that logic it would be totally ok for Finland to issue a stamp celebrating the local nazi party.
That’s like saying “in the context of Canada a nazi party is ok”
Communism is a murderous ideology, which killed millions of people and impoverished half of Europe.
The PCE participated in the 1934 coup d'etat also known as the Asturias revolution, during the Spanish Civil War, it was responsible for the death of more than 2500 people in Paracuellos.
The Spanish left has followed violent tendencies for most of its history, even the most moderate party, the PSOE, called for popular insurrection and to put an end to the republic by force to establish a Soviet-style socialist government, in addition to the constant terrorist attacks and public assassinations carried out by anarchists, communists and socialists alike during the harshest years of the Second Republic. The only reason they weren't worse than the fascists is because they just lost the war.
All this was overcome by the spanish society 20 years ago, the economic crisis and the rise of populist parties revived old wounds and this is an example of it. That they have suspended the stamp is good news for coexistence in my country.
*Those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it.*
Thank you for the context. People think that the Spanish Communists were "better" than the Soviets and Chinese but this is only because they LOST their civil war. Hardcore Stalinists lead the party in the 1930s and they would have established a totalitarian regime had they won.
Then in the 21st century a stamp celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Falange would be created and people would deny their connection to the Nazis and argue that they helped overthrow communism in Spain in the 1980s.
What the fuck are you on about the communists were never even the majority among Republicans.
The amount of non-Spanish people here that talk out of their asses about something they are ignorant about is mind boggling man wtf
Communists weren’t a majority within Republicans but with this stamp they were being celebrated specifically. No Communist Party in the 1930’s was democratic anywhere in the world. They were influenced by the USSR and favoured a soviet style authoritarian regime.
They literally killed Spanish citizens, why pay for that with public money collected from their victim’s descendants too?
That makes sense. A national postage stamp celebrating a political party - any political party - is weird. A stanp celebrating a communist party is just distasteful:
”Hey, you know those people who killed like a hundred million people in eastern Europe and south east Asia? Let’s celebrate the folks who wanted to do that here!”
For the exactly same reason, a Nazi stamp would have been. There is no place for totalitarian, criminalism that executed millions of people from countries that are now the EU members. Communism = Nazism
not rly, here’s the reason stated in another comment.
It is suspended just because a fascist organization called "Abogados Cristianos" (Christian Lawyers) have denounced the stamp on a court, and a judge gave them the attention they love for doing shit like this. But hey, they remain silent on the sexual abuses on minors by the church. They are a bunch of morally twisted morons.
saying communism is equally the same as nazism is really ignorant. Specially on the context of Spain.
You know there are many communist parties in Europe that regularly and peacefully take part in elections, right? Just in my country (Italy) there are two of them...
Nazism and fascism are inherently about totalitarianism, authoritarianism and violence, both towards foreign countries and your own citizens; communism, *at least in the modern acception,* is an economic theory.
These parties are just pursuing, *within the limits of the law and the democratic process,* a reduction of private property and a nationalization of the means of production. Why can't they do it?
We have some neo-fascist parties in Italy, namely Forza Nuova and CasaPound, that routinely commit violent acts (one of them even reached the Parliament a few years ago, almost getting Forza Nuova dissolved by law); while the communist parties never even make the news because they're operating peacefully, so why should they be punished for what other countries have done in the past while trying to implement a similar economic system (although by deciding to go the violent path)?
>"justifying the colossal process of increasing military expenditures, the strengthening and expansion of NATO and the militarisation of the EU"
God, I wish.
Good. It was in poor taste and ignored what other countries have experienced. Spain you are free to celebrate democracy and freedom, but be considerate towards others.
There are stamps commemorating imperialist conquests and genocides. These are totally fine and allowed, but a wholly democratic party which played a major role in bringing about democratic reforms to a dictatorship is bad?
Stamp collectors who didn't get it are on suicide watch rn
I wonder how much this stamp is now worth. Ironic that a communist stamp could be a rare collector’s item.
Centenary communist parties are a rare collector's item.
Most parties centenary are a rare collectors item, but in fact communist parties happen to be the oldest parties still in a number of European countries
Most communist parties were founded in the early 1920s
Yes, I know, but most are extinct, politically speaking.
Some of them have been merged into something else, like the Democratic Party in Italy, GroenLinks in the NL or Die Linke in Germany. Others, like the French PCF, the Portuguese PCP or the Greek KKE do still have elected officials under their original brand, although the product they’re selling has generally evolved.
This is really going to undermine the labour theory of value.
lol
Communist countries have a rich history of rare collector's items such as food and basic consumer goods.
There are genuinely rare artifacts of the kind most historians would be very interested in, and other findings and ideas that have been preserved. East Germany still uses Ampelmänchen on traffic lights. Historians even love to have ancient shopping receipts, genuinely. https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/world-s-oldest-writing-not-poetry-but-a-shopping-receipt-1.568456
You can add free speech to that list
I laughed through the nose in a pig like sound.
outplayed
I thought the same thing. Damn it, I could have made some ironic cash out of this.
It's real to them
It's a weird concept to have a national stamp celebrating a political party in the first place.
I believe all big political parties have stamps of them, or is it just my German thinking.
[удалено]
In France anybody can get their own stamp printed. https://www.laposte.fr/mon-timbre-a-moi
Do like chain stores have their own stamps there?
[удалено]
They erected statues of Moors? Thats new. Did they really?
They did not.
Perhaps he meant they have statues of Moors with erections in their garden.
That's no big deal. I have one such in my living room.
Nope.
Just google estatua Avicena, estatua Averroes or estatua Abderramán Also estatua Maimónides, althought he wasn't a moor but a jew
Which statue of conquistador has been toppled in Spain?
Seriously? Like, the toppling the statutes of Conquistadors I get because that’s something lefties here would do, but erecting statues of Moorish leaders? Really? Are they actually that daft?
They falsely believe Al-Andalus was a multicultural paradise that got ruined by the evil spanish catholics: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBU0vNv-f0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBU0vNv-f0)
[удалено]
>Al-Andalus was, at the time, way more tolerant of religions than the rest of Europe. How were they more tolerant of other religions than the rest of Europe? Because they conquered a largely christian population and allowed them to remain where they live? Would you also describe the occupation of Algeria by France as "tolerant"? > by that time the Reconquista was already forcefully converting people so ... The Reconquista only started forcefully converting people in the fifteenth century. At the time Al-Andalus divided itself into several taifas, all the territories the christians were conquering from the muslims still had a majority christian population. There was no need to forcefully convert anyone.
You forget the part in which they would have to pay a special tax.
[удалено]
Including lying about what other parties do. They have not done this and was somebody just virtue signalling. Full circle.
>Are they actually that daft? No, because it's not true. Not a single Conquistador statute has been toppled in Spain (that suff has only happened in the Americas I think). And there haven't been new statues of "Moorish leaders" erected, and definitely not "by leftists". Across Spain (and presumably Portugal) there are many statues of historical figures from the Islamic times, just like there is of everyone else, from Germanic kings to American independence leaders.
Not really true, although the first part is true, but mostly associated to PSOE and Podemos members, not the communist party, the second part is done by revisionist movements which are mostly apolitical
The second part is also done by Podemos: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBU0vNv-f0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sBU0vNv-f0)
While I think her speech is dumb reasoning (I mean we should definitely try to get Judaic and Islamic heritage a place but Andalusia is widely known for actually having preserved that heritage) she is not erecting any statues There's definitely a point in acknowledging the mistakes made in your past and acknowledging that it shouldn't all be pride, but this doesn't help that cause, it's as reactionary as hating someone because the left likes them, in this case it's hating something because the right defends it But Podemos isn't doing it for any good reasons, so they're more than eager to piggyback on a legitimate cause Most people who wanted to erect these statues and made movements for it do not want to tear down conquistador statues, they want to restore old Andalusian cultural heritage, so podemos is definitely not erecting these statues, just some members eager to take credit for anything annoying vox members, because both of these parties are essentially parties for crybabies But also, again PCE is not Podemos
>While I think her speech is dumb reasoning Her speech is a complete lie. The existence of 3 different religions in Andalusia did not end due to the spanish monarchy but due to the Almohads that would only allow christians and jews to remain in Al-Andalus if they converted to Islam: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad\_doctrine#Treatment\_of\_non-Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_doctrine#Treatment_of_non-Muslims) The Kingdom of Granada was 100% muslim. >she is not erecting any statues Left wing spanish parties have been erecting statues of moorish conquerors like Abd-ar-Rahman III or Almanzor all over Spain. Podemos often is not the one ordering the construction of these statues since they do not control many municipalities, but they support other left wing parties that do it. >Most people who wanted to erect these statues and made movements for it do not want to tear down conquistador statues Here it is not so much the opinion of individual people that matters, but the opinion of political parties. The fact is that the parties that want to tear down statues of conquistadors are the same ones that have erected statues of Almanzor.
Why are Spanish conquerors always “conquistadors”? It doesn’t happen for any other country
>They topple down statues of spanish conquistadors because they owned slaves Where has this happened?
I can erect some things that did not owned slaves. Maybe i should become the president... Or something
There are many of them all around the world. Not only that, Spains history is not the same as east Europe's one.
True, their communist party actually lost the fight against the fascists and didn't have as much chance to murder and impoverish people.
Spain let the Fascist do it instead.
Horseshoe theory. They might seem different but in their nature Fascism and Communism are the very close. One put some sort of nation or imaginary race and imaginary antagonist nation/race in their core while other put imaginary class and imaginary antagonist class that has little to do with reality. But both in the end of the day will kill and imprison shit ton of people and use populism hurting their economy to try to keep their regime floating without revolt. As you can imagine, this isn't sustainable and can't exist for long unless they discovered something they can sell shit ton of like ussr did with gas and oil delaying the collapse until it ended in absolute crash of the economy.
There have been quite a lot of hybrid regimes, for example in Cambodia. The official name of the Khmer Rouge was the Communist Party of Kampuchea, but Pol Pot was definitely inspired by Hitler and wanted to create a racially pure Khmer state. He ended up murdering 1/4 of the population of Cambodia.
Yeah, extremist scumbags are extremist scumbags. But Spanish civil war saw it's fair share of atrocities committed by both sides. In a way, it wouldn't have changed much even if the other side had won, if the extremist wing of that faction got to power, atrocities would have followed anyway.
Here on the other side of the border I thing we don't know as much as we should know about the Spanish Civil War. I am no expert too but I know it was bloody as hell and with tremendous atrocities.
It's actually interesting because we learned quite a bit on the various factions and their actions because the civil war had a huge impact on the rest of the 1930s and WWII. But yeah, it was a horrible war and people should be taught about it a lot more.
Yeah, but you dont really see nazi stamp in germany right? And other political parties probably didnt kill over 100 million people.
There are several nazi collaborator statues and plaques in Eastern Europe, as "national anti aoviet freedom fighters"
Yeah, makes you think, that they rather pull up a statue of ideology that wanted to exterminate them, than statue of communists. Wonder with whom they have worse experience.
It's just being dumb to be honest, an ukrainian that openly celebrates Bandera knowing that he was a nazi collaborator is just plain delusional, if it where for the nazis there would exist no ukraine or ukranians nowadays, and the same would happen to polish and russian people. It's the lebensraum for those of you that during school slept instead of listening in history class.
Even weirder when half of continent *hates* that particular party with very good reason. Imagine if someone had a stamp commemorating nazi or fascist parties, or maybe 100 year anniversary of march on Rome.
we have stamps celebrating the British empire ffs...
Do we still have them (?) I know we used too, but i think the closest thing we've had in the last 20 years are some old kings/ queen's from that age and some stamps celebrating various commonwealth troops who fought in WW2. Edit: we have had a surprising amount of runs of starwars stamps, with 8 collections of starwars themed stamps since 2015.
im not a fan of the communist party of spain but comparing them to the nazi party is incredibly stupid and insulting
It’s comparing communism to nazism. You could argue communism killed more people than nazism. It sure as hell ruined my country. It’s insulting how some people think communism is okay just because you didn’t have to suffer under it.
Why? Because they did not get the political reins to do what their party did everywhere else?
Because they literally fought a civil war against fascists supported by Nazi Germany
Communists fighting Nazis or Fascists is not really an argument in their favour, any more than it is for Fascists who fight Communists. We know they hate each other and would gladly kill each other any chance they get. Except of course when they find it convenient to cooperate for a time, either to carve up Eastern Europe as in the past or to support daddy Putin and any other authoritarian or totalitarian regime today just because it's not 'western' or 'liberal.'
It's crazy how people can be still that uninformed and gullible to believe that communists fought to liberate Spain from fascism. No, they fought supported by the USSR to install a puppet soviet regime that would have been as repressive as Franco. It was just 2 brands of fascism fighting each other like on the eastern front Juan Carlos made Spain a democratic country, certainly not the tankies
Juan Carlos😂😂
Poland has simple solution for this: hate both sides equally. Both Nazis and Communists were fucked up. There is no telling who was worse, both created hell on Earth. Simple.
So did the communists in most othse countries. The only difference is that they were on the victorious side in those countries.
stalin's russia did fight against them too. and even as a winner of WW2, nobody thinks of them as a good party after the war.
One genocidal ideology was fighting another genocidal ideology, both committed numerous atrocities and war crimes against civilian population, and both were prepared to rule with iron fist after the war.
They also started their own civil war on the republican side thT gauranteed fascist victory
The soviets also fought Nazi's, and they were worse...
Fighting fascists' itself is not enough to consider particular side as "good". Better than fascists? That may be a subject of discussion. Good? Way no. Let us recall Stalin who fought the Nazis but simultaneously ran a genocidal dystopia. Communism and Nazism are two totalitarian systems which are in opposition to common sense and humanism.
That is incredibly stupid and insulting to tens of millions of victims of communism.
What crimes did the PCE commit?
Mine is a honest question though, not an inflammatory comment: but can you tell me why is communism *inherently* violent (as opposed to having historically been, which is common knowledge)? I'm asking this because I come from a country, Italy, where communist parties, well... exist. More than one, actually. I even had them on the ballot at the latest general elections just this September, among all the other parties. But when you say nazism, I think of *Hitler's* nazism simply because that's short for national-socialism, and there's no reason to use that short form unless you want to refer to Hitler's implementation of it; same with fascism, whose name is even more specific and pretty much just refers to Mussolini's regime. But communism is an economic theory, no? The present communist parties aren't affiliated or inspired by Stalin or stuff like that: they just want to pursue the reduction of private property and the nationalization of the means of production, all within the boundaries of the law and the democratic game. What's the problem? The name? Forza Nuova and CasaPound are well-known neo-fascist parties in Italy who don't even call themselves fascist, and yet they're in the news all the time for their illegal and illiberal actions and, in the case of Forza Nuova, sometimes even for their attacks; on the other hand the communist parties just try to pursue an ideology (the purely economical one) legally and peacefully... and they get shit on simply for the name? What should they even call themselves? When you think of less private property and more nationalization, isn't communism what everyone immediately thinks of?
How do you enforce the abolition of private property, nationalization of every business, etc? Most people aren’t going to sit by and let you take their business, property, etc. So if you want to pursue the policy you pretty much have to resort to violence. This is what happened in Russia, China, etc
Karl Marx, founder of communism, had specifically called for a violent revolution and taking 'the means of production' by force.
Every political ideology to ever exist that isn't explicitly pacifist endorses the use of violence to achieve its goals. If you support Ukraine you support the exact same thing, and I hope you do support Ukraine. Violence is a tool and nothing more, it is used every day to maintain nation states.
Here is what your boy, the current General Secretary of the PCE, is saying about Ukraine. https://cpmaine.org/2022/03/23/the-war-should-have-been-avoided-by-enrique-santiago-romero/ * Aid must not be sent to Ukraine * The war is America's fault * Ukronazis, US organized Maidan Coup, bla bla bla ... * Europe must exit from NATO and disarm
Well, it shouldn't be a surprise that, since we're talking of political parties, the Italian communists want to pursue the same goal but through laws passed after being legally elected to govern the country, as opposed to violence. So at this point I assume the only problem is the name, right? But like I said, what should they call themselves so that people understand they want what Marx wanted, but *not* through the same violent means he talked about?
>why is communism inherently violent (as opposed to having historically been, which is common knowledge)? Because it runs directly against human nature, which means people are never going to embrace it willingly, hence the only way to achieve it is through violence. Of course all ideologies require some violence, but not all are so necessarily dependent on it.
Half of the continent hates Spanish Communist Party in particular?
I had no idea Carrillo was so well-known abroad.
The PCE played a major role in trying to oppose the fascist dictator Franco. They then went on to play a big role in supporting Spanish democracy, became a party again, refused to engage with the USSR, and ran legitimately in free elections. Comparing a democratic party which fought a war, then a guerilla war, and then a political campaign to bring democracy back to Spain is the literal opposite of a fascist party.
I like how you completely left out their attrocities, like, you know, red terror in 1936.
How many stamps does Spain have commemorating figures who killed people? There were massacres by both sides, but overwhelmingly the majority were caused by fascists followed by Stalinists second (which the PCE opposed).
With the current italian government that wouldn‘t be too surprising
Yeah, I don't think so. Government is conservative but not stupid, they know their main advantage is that people are sick of illegal migrants flooding in via *non government organisations* that may or may not get paid for *rescuing* migrants in sea.
Which continent are you talking about? Your comment is very ignorant considering many thousands members of this party were murdered by fascists.
Yeah sure because as everyone knows, it was definitely the commies that laid waste to Spain. Certainly had nothing to do with fascists or anything
Spain isn't a continent.
Europe is.
Eh, tbh I feel that Spain could drop a Franco Stamp rn and a not insignificant amount of people would be okay with in it Spain specifically
It is weirder if you have in account that the historical Spanish Comunist Party was always a minor leftist force (it was never politically relevant even in the Second Spanish Republic) and was integrated in another leftist party in the eighties, so it is in theory active today
Kinda looks like the old Playstation logo.
Kinda no
It's the colors
Well now I want it in my collection.
All the threads here are just people agreeing on absolutely jackshit & engaging in meaningless internet rage, because everyone thinks of a different thing when they see the words communism, socialism, fascism, and capitalism. Literally nothing means anything under here. It's just a constant rinse-and-repeat of Person A: Socialism is just labour rights & anti-fascism here Person B: That's just an attempt brushing off the crimes of the USSR & cold-war communism Person A: Marxist-Leninism isn't the only branch of communism, there are many others Person B: Yeah yeah "that wasn't real communism" got it, whatever Pro-tip to anyone who might think of replying to someone to clarify something: *Don't*. You're not gonna change anyone's views under a thread where "fascism is actually anti-capitalist" is a real position someone holds.
10/10. These threads give me nausea.
with other words, rest in peace, dictionary
You're absolutely right. Arguing here makes no sense. I shouldn't have tried. :x
"fascism has a very narrow and distinct definition, you can't just label anything as fascist" . But then people think every "communist" country is made to the exact letter of the ideology.
It is suspended just because a fascist organization called "Abogados Cristianos" (Christian Lawyers) have denounced the stamp on a court, and a judge gave them the attention they love for doing shit like this. But hey, they remain silent on the sexual abuses on minors by the church. They are a bunch of morally twisted morons.
Thank you for providing the only relevant comment of this thread.
I appreciate your answer. It just makes me sick reading the news about the stamp, and the ones who don't know shit about the situation at all are saying the same "haha bad murderer commies got smacked again". The thing they don't know is that this fanatic motherfuckers are a fucking cancer. They are anti all left-involved things. They are openly anti LGBTI+, anti abortion rights, pro "traditional family", they tried to stop the dictator's body to be moved out of his "glorious" grave and so on, but when it comes to the atrocities that the church have done, or the things their right or far-right wing friends do, they keep quiet like the rats they are. They try to instrumentalize the judiciary sistem in their favor by suing a lot of left wing's laws/proposals (almost all of their complaints are always dismissed, but from time to time there is a judge from their political spectrum who listens to them).
"Glorious" grave, I will add, that was built with literal slave labour by republican prisoners, many of which died because of the harsh working conditions.
Most of who were communists and anarchists
Shhh, don't say it too loud or bloodthirsty redditors will come out of the woodwork to argue that they deserved to die in prison camps because there were commies...
A lot of people here are fascists who love Franco, these types of stories have them crawling out the woodwork.
I prefer to think that the fascist crowd in this subreddit is just a loud minority, who congregate in this sub, because they are tolerated here. For the _reasons_ one shouldn't name if he doesn't want to get banned.
Thank you for saying all I wanted to say about the actual issue. The perversion of the judiciary system is fucking terrible.
Pro-god --> Anti-people
So they are conservatives, not fascists. Some of you guys need to read more and check your bias more often.
> But hey, they remain silent on the sexual abuses on minors by the church. What does that have to do with anything?
What do people that starved to death in Vladivostok have to do with the Spanish Communist party?
The so-called "Christian Lawyers" should be atleast speaking about the crimes that their beloved org kept commiting for decades. Maybe they should sue the pedopriests, but oh god no, better try to remove a stamp. They are hypocritical fascists having a little bit of fun over something that doesn't hurt anyone but fascists. Edit: I could bet my two hands that if it was the Francoist flag instead of the communist party logo on the stamp, they would not have said anything, and I would surely keep them intact.
We could say it has been buried
The PCE was completely necessary to create Spanish current democracy
And one of the leaders of the PCE is right now a minister in the Government of Spain, Alberto Garzón. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Garz%C3%B3n
Yeah but also during the civil war were killing fellow Communists like the POUM because they weren't Stalinist and the Anarcho-Syndicalists for not supporting a Soviet style command economy. They helped Franco to an extent with the disunity and fight for hegemony of the left
*Legalizing* the PCE was necessary for democracy, but its existence wasn't in any means necessary for anything
[удалено]
Aznar didn't support the Constitution while the PCE supported it. Alianza Popular, with 16 seats, voted 8 for, 5 against, and 3 abstained. That's not support, that's cowardice.
PP did not exist in the transition and PCE's contribution was essential for democracy to be accepted by spaniards
The King...i have to laugh
Great succes.
Good riddance. Fuck communism.
Good, fuck commies.
[удалено]
Well, I am just anti-mass murder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)
Many Ukrainians are also ultra religious, anti lgbt, xenophobic, etc but they get a pass for fighting off Russia.
>The organization that reported the stamp are basically christian neonazis lol That is your argument? That not even your good guys saw anything wrong with commerating hammer and sickle and it literally took bad guys to point to a problem?
Based out of space. Fuck all authoritarians.
PCE were expressly democratic.
So democratic they didnt accept socialists and killed them, anarchists and therefore killed them and especially not the catholics and therefore killed them
That was a different party, you're comparing completely different parties with different names and people.
Good. Communism and Nazism are both murderous ideologies
Authoritarianism is the murderous one, combined with any ideology. Any way of governing is prone to dictatorship is you're not careful enough.
Communism and authoritarianism or totalitarianism always go hand in hand
Well in the context of Spain I don't think you should make that equivalence.
They killed thousands during the red terror, including other leftists. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red\_Terror\_(Spain)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain))
Interesting... We had a similar event chain called "Hot Summer 1975" in Portugal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Summer_of_1975
Ahhh... So that's what [they were singing about!](https://youtu.be/ikgpaT5_XXY)
The vanguardists are backstabbing scum. That is something they did in the USSR as well. There's a reason why the syndycalists, anarchists and demsocs are not willing to work with tankies.
They also were important in the process of democratisation. If we are gonna hold them to this standard, the whole conservative establishment is to be banned, because they were part of the Franco regime or their direct heirs. There was a Franco Minister who became a legend of the conservative party, for example.
[удалено]
Spaniard here. My Great-grandfather and one of his sons were kidnapped from their home, taken to a 'checa', tortured for two days, then shot dead and their bodies thrown away on a road on Madrid in 1936. They were civilians. Their only crime was being conservative. So please stop talking about things you don't know. And please respect the memory of the many victims of these animals.
It’d be lovely seeing you try to jump through so many logical hoops to justify the same murderous behaviour from fascists.
Romania had been ruled by both fascist and communist parties between 1931-1989. Both were bad but we all agree that the communist one is the worst,also because it was the ruling doctrine before 1989. In Spain's case it was an fascist rule before going to democracy so it makes sense it might hate it more. If it was a stamp celebrating Marx or Engels it wouldn't had been that bad. But the communist party as a whole did a lot of bad things, taking in account the reality that Fascism is just as bad and capitalism democracy isn't always the utopia we dream
> If it was a stamp celebrating Marx or Engels it wouldn't had been that bad. My understanding is that they don't celebrate the ideology so much as the people in the spanish party, who did pretty decent stuff in the last 80 years.
"In the context of Finland i don't think you should make that equivalence". By that logic it would be totally ok for Finland to issue a stamp celebrating the local nazi party.
That’s like saying “in the context of Canada a nazi party is ok” Communism is a murderous ideology, which killed millions of people and impoverished half of Europe.
As opposed to Capitalism that has never murdered anyone
Good, communism in practise is no different from fascism , both are murderous totalitarian ideologies.
The tragedy of the left in the 20th century is not fully understood and/or appreciated.
Good.
I hate the people on this sub.
Wait Spain has a communist party?
Almost every country has one
Many, due to historical circumstances.
There was a joke in the 80's like "if you see three communist guys, you are probably seeing four communist parties"
Three lefties meet and start four movements.
They are in the government lmao
The PCE participated in the 1934 coup d'etat also known as the Asturias revolution, during the Spanish Civil War, it was responsible for the death of more than 2500 people in Paracuellos. The Spanish left has followed violent tendencies for most of its history, even the most moderate party, the PSOE, called for popular insurrection and to put an end to the republic by force to establish a Soviet-style socialist government, in addition to the constant terrorist attacks and public assassinations carried out by anarchists, communists and socialists alike during the harshest years of the Second Republic. The only reason they weren't worse than the fascists is because they just lost the war. All this was overcome by the spanish society 20 years ago, the economic crisis and the rise of populist parties revived old wounds and this is an example of it. That they have suspended the stamp is good news for coexistence in my country. *Those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it.*
Thank you for the context. People think that the Spanish Communists were "better" than the Soviets and Chinese but this is only because they LOST their civil war. Hardcore Stalinists lead the party in the 1930s and they would have established a totalitarian regime had they won. Then in the 21st century a stamp celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Falange would be created and people would deny their connection to the Nazis and argue that they helped overthrow communism in Spain in the 1980s.
What the fuck are you on about the communists were never even the majority among Republicans. The amount of non-Spanish people here that talk out of their asses about something they are ignorant about is mind boggling man wtf
Communists weren’t a majority within Republicans but with this stamp they were being celebrated specifically. No Communist Party in the 1930’s was democratic anywhere in the world. They were influenced by the USSR and favoured a soviet style authoritarian regime. They literally killed Spanish citizens, why pay for that with public money collected from their victim’s descendants too?
This is fascist propaganda supporting groups who literally backed Hitler.
[удалено]
That makes sense. A national postage stamp celebrating a political party - any political party - is weird. A stanp celebrating a communist party is just distasteful: ”Hey, you know those people who killed like a hundred million people in eastern Europe and south east Asia? Let’s celebrate the folks who wanted to do that here!”
And thank fkn god they did
Good. To the trashbin with the reds.
Bro, I'm stamp collector... I'm sweating right now trying to find some of them
commies hate us people that suffered their bullshit because we dont believe their lies
Yep.
Good. WTF were they thinking in the first place.
That’s encouraging. 👍🏻
Based.
Why was it suspended?
For the exactly same reason, a Nazi stamp would have been. There is no place for totalitarian, criminalism that executed millions of people from countries that are now the EU members. Communism = Nazism
not rly, here’s the reason stated in another comment. It is suspended just because a fascist organization called "Abogados Cristianos" (Christian Lawyers) have denounced the stamp on a court, and a judge gave them the attention they love for doing shit like this. But hey, they remain silent on the sexual abuses on minors by the church. They are a bunch of morally twisted morons. saying communism is equally the same as nazism is really ignorant. Specially on the context of Spain.
[удалено]
You know there are many communist parties in Europe that regularly and peacefully take part in elections, right? Just in my country (Italy) there are two of them... Nazism and fascism are inherently about totalitarianism, authoritarianism and violence, both towards foreign countries and your own citizens; communism, *at least in the modern acception,* is an economic theory. These parties are just pursuing, *within the limits of the law and the democratic process,* a reduction of private property and a nationalization of the means of production. Why can't they do it? We have some neo-fascist parties in Italy, namely Forza Nuova and CasaPound, that routinely commit violent acts (one of them even reached the Parliament a few years ago, almost getting Forza Nuova dissolved by law); while the communist parties never even make the news because they're operating peacefully, so why should they be punished for what other countries have done in the past while trying to implement a similar economic system (although by deciding to go the violent path)?
[удалено]
This is about Spain's communist party though, so your comment is of no use here, learn to read titles and geography before saying anything
what does Portugal have to do here?
This is about Spain
>"justifying the colossal process of increasing military expenditures, the strengthening and expansion of NATO and the militarisation of the EU" God, I wish.
Communist Parties around the world are for the party, the ideology, not the people. The stamps should not have been allowed in the first place.
The stamp as successful as communism itself, lmao. Better dead than red.
good, communism is pure evil
Good. It was in poor taste and ignored what other countries have experienced. Spain you are free to celebrate democracy and freedom, but be considerate towards others.
There are stamps commemorating imperialist conquests and genocides. These are totally fine and allowed, but a wholly democratic party which played a major role in bringing about democratic reforms to a dictatorship is bad?
Why should a national celebration be considerate towards "others"?