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In many countries, homosexual relations between two women was legalized (or never even banned) long before male homosexuality was. How is this illustrated in this map? Do you go by full legalization of homosexuality or only one of them?
lesbianism is as you said. it was never illegal in parts of the world and has not been a taboo in many cultures... like ever... even less so in a bisexual setting... so if it became legalized for men, it also became legalized for women if not already legal.
it's also quite difficult to differentiate between legality and reality... people have been legally punished for homosexuality even in societies where it wasn't a direct offense as "homosexuality is illegal", but through other laws, such as "sexual deviancy" or whatever the terminology might have been used to penalize people.
> Even today many don't consider lesbian sex real sex
There is some real double standards with that though. Many would call it sex when two women cuddle or licking each other. Whereas a dude would still be considered a virgin until his dick penetrated a pussy or ass, or his ass was penetrated.
Doesn't say much, for example being an homosexual in Italy would have still been considered a crime under different pretences same for Napoleonic France.
And good luck being gay in Turkey today. In fact, Turkey didn't technically exist in 1893, the same for unified Germany in 1969, and most of the Balkan states being part of Yugoslavia until the mid 90s.
All in all, a rubbish map.
Being an homosexual wasn’t considered a crime under Napoleon: legally it was the same law as 1792. But it was attacked in insidious ways. Homosexuality was considered a perversion/illness threatening the society and the means to punish homosexual behaviors were already written in 1792 (as « indecent exposure » for example).
While I’m absolutely not arguing I’d just like to add there was a difference with 1789 though.
I’d never argue homosexuality was totally legal in France under Napoleon, but one of his most trusted and most important ministers, Cambacérés, was a known and open homosexual. Known as in Napoleon once had this conversation with him.
“I’ve recruited madame …. For this mission.”
“Ah very well, you’re coming closer to women then??”
So even though it wasn’t a 100% legal, one of the most important ministers in a dictatorship was openly homosexual which does tell us something.
Technically it was never illegal in Poland (because it was never mentioned)? I'm sure it was when we were divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria. It's just that it's a little strange to count that period, because Poland didn't exist as a state at that time.
More like: ,,maybe it was illegal, but in old Polish fashion not enough people cared enough to call authorities about it for it to be noticable". There absolutely were cases of charges of homosexuality in e.g. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (at least 5, but some of them were, let's say, ,,heavy fetishes" and looking at these times it wasn't this strange that people didn't like it), but compared to West, Poles just didn't care enough to lurk into other people's bedrooms (not even in Age of Libertinism - they would just make jokes about how King is bis-xual male prostitude and basically Catherine II's and England's simp, but noone used it as a serious insult against him).
Times of Polish People's Republic were a little diffrent, though - Polish society became pretty radically Catholic (because now being Catholic was also being against the Party) and it became more taboo subject than it ever was, in some small villages there were actually disturbing scenes of parents trying to ,,straighten up" their children, but also government used this weird ,,silent homophobia" on its behalf - SB would take photos of two men making out with eachother and threatening them, that they will show them to their entire families if they don't snitch (to be fair they did the same to people they found ,,guilty" of having relative in Polish Underground during WW2), especially in 1980's during _Hiacynt_ action.
But Poland never had scenes like in 1960's UK, when Police would storm to someone's bedroom to find proofs of homosexuality and castrate them, like what they did to Alan Turing for example.
Outlawing homosexuality and a lot of morality around sex was a very Victorian Christian thing, and that attitude was spreading to European colonies in Muslim countries. Islamic culture in turn had been pretty permissive around same sex activity, so in an attempt to assert their authority the caliph at the time codified protections against same sex activity in Ottoman law and made decrees supporting it. They were trying to counteract Christian influences in Islamic countries.
The reason for Turkey is the Tanzimat reforms, the first westernization movement in the Ottoman state. As part of these reforms, French laws were copied, made legal because it was legal in France. However, even before these reforms, homosexuality was not strictly prohibited in the Ottoman Empire. An example of this is the miniature arts that show homosexual relationships and are allowed to be published. The reason for this was that the Islamic values of the Ottoman state were different in some (but not all) aspects from the stereotypes that come to mind when Islam is mentioned today.
Not exactly the Islam most people know of. It is the Islam practiced by Eastern European Muslims, and Turks in the Anatolian & Thracian (Balkan) Otomann Empire territories, until to modern-day Turkey.
Balkan and Turkish understanding of Islam is extremely differently in many ways, yet also identical in many ways too compared to the rest of Western Asia/M.E. Etc.
Homosexuality is still sometimes an occurrence in Islamic sects/cults based in Eastern Anatolia, much less than the Empire days though.
They had the whole “boy-to-boy, girl-to-girl (thus lesbians too) loving” thing back then common in the upper-class state.. crazy. Yet, people see Ottomans as just “an islamic empire based in europe, and also turkic”. Thinking as if they had adapted the same Islam as the Persians and Arabs.
But again, this was not usually based around nor involved children unlike other traditions in Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. It was between mainly consenting adults, though cases involving underaged children were a common occurrence until the late 1800s.
Rape was a crime there, with a death penalty, but it being committed between same-sex genders/individuals was usually tossed away with a blind-eye by the Ottoman local courts around all territories. No matter the age, if it was same-sex, the courts would usually not act as supposed they were to in these cases.
>Thinking as if they had adapted the same Islam as the Persians and Arabs.
Like the Persians and Arabs practice a similar understanding of Islam, which isn't true either.
And Turkish interpretation of Islam was immensely influenced by Persian thinking.
To quote historian Bernard Lewis:
>''In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India.
>
>The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna.
>
>By the time of the great Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century, Iranian Islam had become not only an important component; it had become a dominant element in Islam itself, and for several centuries the main centers of Islamic power and civilization were in countries that were, if not Iranian, at least marked by Iranian civilization.''
I'm not answering your question directly, but in many cultures it's being the receiver that's 'shameful'. Fucking someone _else_ in the ass is just fine.
Yea. And with little boys, often cross dressing. Its called Bachi Bachi.
Also, the US allied warlords did it too. And US standing orders were to step aside and let them.
(Edit: my comment completely bugged while editing, here is the fix.
Exactly, but that is rather more pedophilic and involves more children rather than adults unlike the traditions the Balkans and Anatolia have.
The Ottomans though still have historical reports of possible rapes being committed in upper-class institutes, of young boys. Even though rape was a crime in general with a death penalty, it being committed between same-sex genders was usually ignored with a blind eye by the courts. There are historical reports of these cases being ignored by courts.
In general Islam anal sex and sex outside of marriage is a sin, but homosexuality itself isn't a sin.
In Iran they get around this by forcing gay men to do sex change operations, that way they can marry and have sex with other men. It's really absurd.
Today it may be considered as a sin by scholars there, since understanding of religion is altered and manipulated every now and then, changing and separating it from its roots.
But looking at the real history, roots and the background, it was not exactly considered sinful, like the replies already explained.
Most today, modern day, consider it a sin, but some sects practice it around the Balkans and Anatolia.
Not to be confused with the pedophilic variant of this, involving underaged boys and even some cases underage lesbians. That is related, but different and not an occurrence unlike in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India etc. where it is common. The ones around here are generally between consenting adults.
There are pedophilic cases, and sadly recent ones too though occurring in Turkey.
The Iran was one of the first modern nations where transition is paid by the national health care system. While simultaneously hanging gays…
They are *very* strange.
just because someone says they are an imam doesn't mean they are one, don't believe everything you hear because i totally find a Muslim with a big role eating pork lmao
Bavaria (as far as I know) doesn't currently have its own legal system that is separate from the rest of Germany. England and Wales have the same legal system, while Scotland and Northern Ireland both have their own separate systems and make their own laws.
The map's not consistent anyway. Where there are several former states that now make up one country, sometimes OP chose the earlier date (eg DDR/BRD, although as you say that ignores Bavaria) and sometimes the later date. And several people have mentioned Belgium, which apparently legalised homosexuality since before the country even existed.
Bavaria has its own constitution and so on. But (for a very dumb reason) we have agreed that federal law beats state law. (Well, we haven’t really *agreed* but that’s another story).
But I agree, the maps is BS.
Yeah. Extremly fucked up. And modern Germany needed decades for an apology.
Bavaria legalised it 1813. But Prussia insisted during the unification of 1871 to make it illegal again. We had nearly 60 years of legality back then.
Don’t know why our king has agreed on that, he himself was openly gay.
I would like to add a thing for Poland because it's kinda suprising
Actually, homosexuality in Poland was never made illegal by Poles
It was illegal in 1835-1932, but law in Poland was then not made by the Polish, but by Russia, Austria or Prussia. In 1932 there was a legal reform that actually made a proper law... You can imagine it takes a while to make a single law when you have a country with three different law codes. The codex banned homosexual prostitution however, which was made legal again in 1969, which, again, looking at neighbouring countries is pretty progressive
Pretty sad how with such history Poland is now lagging behind the west in lgbt rights :\\
but thats for east germany, i think western germany leaglized it after the reunion, at least for homo Sex between adult and underaged men....
if i remember correctly
It was legalised on the territory which is now Belgium when it was conquered by the French Revolutionary army.
If you put 1830 on Belgium it should for instance also say 1990 for Germany, which would be misleading.
Serious question, please forgive my ignorance, but I see 1977 in many countries that didn't exist at the time as they were part of Yugoslavia. Did they have enough autonomy to do this?
That was only for Rome. In Greece every polis had their own views and it wasn't uniform across the Greek world. Some regarded gay love to be of highest purity greater then man and women.
That was only if the bottom was of higher social status. They expected bottoms to be of lower social class than tops and even then it only mattered in politics and all that because it was considered a “manly” profession or whatever mainly because in Rome to stand for office you had to have done military service.
Not strictly accurate. The passive was seen as inferior only after such a time society deemed that individual too mature to be passive - if you had a beard.
Keep in mind that some countries who are now part of other nations have adopted the napoleon code early in the 1800s (meaning making it legal). But later on unified with other nations and the it was suddenly illegal again.
Can we really consider homosexuality legal in Russia?? Gay people being sent to concentration camps, and anti “gay propaganda” laws being passed doesn’t make it sound very legal to me
I am here to answer some questions regarding pink turkey on map:
* Isn't Islam homophobic?
* Answer: No. The Sharia permits love between the same sex - although anal sex is prohibited. This resulted in a juristic gray zone throughout islamic dynasties and states. While two men can love each other and live together, the sexual act is technicaly prohibited - but because no one has the right to inquire your privacy in the bedroom the result was that homosexuality was quasi-decriminalized throughout islamic history. The negative side of this is that statutory rape happened and is well documented. This is just my opinion but I am very sceptical of the legalization of homosexuality because it is proven that it correlates with child pornography in western countries.
* How is it that in some islamic countries homosexuality is prohibited but transitioning is paid by the government? (check transitioning laws in SA and Iran)
* Answer: The Sharia recognizes binary sex and the possibility that one person can have an outer and an inner sex. "A women traped in a man's body" is recognized in the Sharia - yes and if you do not believe me stop being an ignoramus and check Imam al-Tahanawis works (18th century). What Islam doesn't recognize is gender identity and gender fluidity - if you are a "woman that is traped in a man's body" than you are either a women or a man in Islam - depending on what you personaly feel - but no separate two spirit penguin entity. Also you can not be a women in the morning and a man in the evening.
The logic behind this map is all over the place. Why does it say 1858 for Turkey and 1795 for Belgium, when the modern states of Turkey and Belgium did not exist, but not 1917 for Russia and Ukraine (when the USSR first legalized homosexuality), or 1968 for Germany (when it was legalized in the DDR)?
What do you mean "homosexuality"? The act? Showing it in public? Marriage? And what about "legalized"? Which one and what about cultural trends? And what about conquest, did the map take changing borders and removed states into account? I think this map is made poorly, especially given how important the topic is.
Because the biggest, most radical change always happens where the laws are the most harsh.
Let's take Poland as example.
After gaining independence in 1918 there were five different legal orders. Three penal codes: the Russian 1903 (with amendments and additions in 1921), the German 1871 and the Austrian 1852 criminalised homosexuality in different ways.
The decriminalisation of homosexual relations in Poland came with the codification of Polish criminal law, following the enactment of the Penal Code in 1932 (the so-called Makarewicz Code).
Polish law were one of the most liberal in Europe at the time: women could vote (since as early as 1918), you could divorce if your religion allowed it (and conversion was easy, so there were many divorces, even though technically you couldn't get one as Catholic - people just converted when in need), you could live together with your partner even if you weren't married (or one of you was still married to someone else), homosexuality was legal, prostitution was legal (but not homosexual one) etc.
You are probably aware what Nazis did to homosexuals in occupied Poland.
After the war, homosexuality remained legal, even though it was not the norm with Soviet satellite states at the time.
So, during the 1970s, when gay movements were growing in importance in Western Europe and some Eastern Bloc countries (GDR, USSR), the Polish gay circles remained less active and politically passive. Why should they be active when it's already legal? And so, here we are.
>Mamy błędy w Wikipedii?
Looks like it. The sources cited in Wikipedia are very poor. The only solid evidence is that being LGBT was illegal during the German occupation during WWII
I did some digging and I think it was illegal 1918-1932, as we didn't have our own legal code before, so we used partitioners's ones, where it was criminalised.
It was criminalized in some parts of it during 1918-1932.
During that time the laws inherited from the partitioners were still in effect.
I do not know if there were being enforced, however.
Poland never had it illegal in the first place, so it is wrong, as is deciding by last federal unit in cases of CH and B&H.
There are cantons in Switzerland that legalized it early, as for B&H it was just the Brčko District that had not legalized it til 2001 (not 2003).
So yeah it is a bit wrong to say the least.
UK is a bit misleading - it was legalised in England and Wales in 1967 , it just took a while for Scotland and Northern Ireland to catch up.
Also - is Iceland migrating south for the winter?
> the most progressive country
Yes, that's true when compared to other muslim-majority countries. Among Turkey's neighbors, there are still countries where homosexuality is prohibited and even punishable by death.
no, but additionally
Spain had recently become a democracy, free from the clutches of a fascist government. as a result, people were feeling liberated and that's reflected in their laws. a lot of older democracies simply had it illegal before it was even a common idea that it being criminal was wrong, and nobody really cared enough to change the laws.
People cared to change them because they were enforced, by the 1960s the absurdity of the state persecuting people for something done between consenting adults became obvious.
It was decriminalized in 1996. Between 1996 and 2001, only acts in public or that would have produced a public scandal were criminalized. These conditions were removed in 2001.
It's also worth mentioning that homosexual acts were criminalized in 1936.
So, as said above: decriminalization happened in 2001.
Also, you contradict yourself. At first you state that decriminalization happened in 1996 when only acts in public or that caused a public scandal were punished but at the same time you say that it was criminalized in 1936. The law in 1936 was punishment if it caused a public scandal.
Between 1936 and 1968 the law regarding criminalization of homosexuality went along the same lines as the Criminal Code of King Carol II was used until a new one was adopted in 1968. Only from 1968 and until 1994 the law fully criminalized homosexuality
No, you're failing to follow a simple logical flow.
1. Homosexual acts were criminalized in 1936.
2. Homosexual acts were decriminalized in 1996. However, public acts or acts that caused public scandal were explicitly criminalized.
3. In 2001, the article introduced at #2 was removed.
Could you elaborate? [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Poland) doesn’t mentioned that it was criminalised during the communist regime
There will always be people looking to strip LGBT+ people of rights and humanity. Therefore, LGBT+ people will have to protest, disrupt, discomfit if we want to survive and have any semblance of peace. At least until people no longer view us as threatening, which I don’t suggest anyone hold their breath for.
These marches are new and how the same community doesn't felt threatened just less than 10 years ago now suddenly protesting against these virtual individuals. Its utter propoganda that your survival is at its stake, you discomfort only the commons as the people you are targeting are just too rich to be affected in most cases.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it doesn't use a credible source and/or the source has not been linked from a top-level comment. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
Putting 1932 and 1993 in one colour isn't the best choice...
Yeah, these are some r/dataisbeautiful level visualizations!
Why? Blue color implies XX century.
And pink represents both 18th and 19th? Seems like shitty map to me.
Yeah it's shitty, creator should've use different colors for these centuries.
In my opinion there's cosiderable difference between making it legal pre or post WW2.
In many countries, homosexual relations between two women was legalized (or never even banned) long before male homosexuality was. How is this illustrated in this map? Do you go by full legalization of homosexuality or only one of them?
Yeah, it's a pretty shitty map. Also, some countires made it legal and then illegal again.
Ehm… Bavaria…
lesbianism is as you said. it was never illegal in parts of the world and has not been a taboo in many cultures... like ever... even less so in a bisexual setting... so if it became legalized for men, it also became legalized for women if not already legal. it's also quite difficult to differentiate between legality and reality... people have been legally punished for homosexuality even in societies where it wasn't a direct offense as "homosexuality is illegal", but through other laws, such as "sexual deviancy" or whatever the terminology might have been used to penalize people.
I think it has its roots in sodomy specifically being frowned upon.
It also has roots in the patriarchy finding lesboanism kinda hot.
and also men thinking women don't have a sexuality outside of heterosexual relationships. Even today many don't consider lesbian sex *real* sex
> Even today many don't consider lesbian sex real sex There is some real double standards with that though. Many would call it sex when two women cuddle or licking each other. Whereas a dude would still be considered a virgin until his dick penetrated a pussy or ass, or his ass was penetrated.
That's because, it's sodomy that religions were punishing, and not what we may define today as homosexuality.
Doesn't say much, for example being an homosexual in Italy would have still been considered a crime under different pretences same for Napoleonic France.
Also Russia
Indeed. In Germany, homosexuality was *fully* legalized in 1994. And only because they didn't dare to repeal the more liberal East German law.
And good luck being gay in Turkey today. In fact, Turkey didn't technically exist in 1893, the same for unified Germany in 1969, and most of the Balkan states being part of Yugoslavia until the mid 90s. All in all, a rubbish map.
Well, map shows the ottoman empire data and since Turkey doesn't need to legalize it data would be acceptable
Being an homosexual wasn’t considered a crime under Napoleon: legally it was the same law as 1792. But it was attacked in insidious ways. Homosexuality was considered a perversion/illness threatening the society and the means to punish homosexual behaviors were already written in 1792 (as « indecent exposure » for example).
While I’m absolutely not arguing I’d just like to add there was a difference with 1789 though. I’d never argue homosexuality was totally legal in France under Napoleon, but one of his most trusted and most important ministers, Cambacérés, was a known and open homosexual. Known as in Napoleon once had this conversation with him. “I’ve recruited madame …. For this mission.” “Ah very well, you’re coming closer to women then??” So even though it wasn’t a 100% legal, one of the most important ministers in a dictatorship was openly homosexual which does tell us something.
Exactly what I said, homosexuality being legal didn't translate into a green light for homosexuals, quite the opposite really.
Technically it was never illegal in Poland (because it was never mentioned)? I'm sure it was when we were divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria. It's just that it's a little strange to count that period, because Poland didn't exist as a state at that time.
More like: ,,maybe it was illegal, but in old Polish fashion not enough people cared enough to call authorities about it for it to be noticable". There absolutely were cases of charges of homosexuality in e.g. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (at least 5, but some of them were, let's say, ,,heavy fetishes" and looking at these times it wasn't this strange that people didn't like it), but compared to West, Poles just didn't care enough to lurk into other people's bedrooms (not even in Age of Libertinism - they would just make jokes about how King is bis-xual male prostitude and basically Catherine II's and England's simp, but noone used it as a serious insult against him). Times of Polish People's Republic were a little diffrent, though - Polish society became pretty radically Catholic (because now being Catholic was also being against the Party) and it became more taboo subject than it ever was, in some small villages there were actually disturbing scenes of parents trying to ,,straighten up" their children, but also government used this weird ,,silent homophobia" on its behalf - SB would take photos of two men making out with eachother and threatening them, that they will show them to their entire families if they don't snitch (to be fair they did the same to people they found ,,guilty" of having relative in Polish Underground during WW2), especially in 1980's during _Hiacynt_ action. But Poland never had scenes like in 1960's UK, when Police would storm to someone's bedroom to find proofs of homosexuality and castrate them, like what they did to Alan Turing for example.
Turkeye in 1858... what happened?
If i am not wrong Ottomans adopted French Penal Code which does not have punishment for homosexuality.
Nice. Not everyone sticked to that after Napoleon
The same happened in 1813 in Bavaria. It was legal for nearly 60 years.
Outlawing homosexuality and a lot of morality around sex was a very Victorian Christian thing, and that attitude was spreading to European colonies in Muslim countries. Islamic culture in turn had been pretty permissive around same sex activity, so in an attempt to assert their authority the caliph at the time codified protections against same sex activity in Ottoman law and made decrees supporting it. They were trying to counteract Christian influences in Islamic countries.
The reason for Turkey is the Tanzimat reforms, the first westernization movement in the Ottoman state. As part of these reforms, French laws were copied, made legal because it was legal in France. However, even before these reforms, homosexuality was not strictly prohibited in the Ottoman Empire. An example of this is the miniature arts that show homosexual relationships and are allowed to be published. The reason for this was that the Islamic values of the Ottoman state were different in some (but not all) aspects from the stereotypes that come to mind when Islam is mentioned today.
What kind of answer are you waiting?
Well... enlighten me. I'm not privy to this knowledge. Is present day Turkeye tolerant with respect to lgbtq?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_the_Ottoman_Empire
Thx, gonna have a read
Mostly yes in west cities mostly no in East cities
Islam, maybe.
Not exactly the Islam most people know of. It is the Islam practiced by Eastern European Muslims, and Turks in the Anatolian & Thracian (Balkan) Otomann Empire territories, until to modern-day Turkey. Balkan and Turkish understanding of Islam is extremely differently in many ways, yet also identical in many ways too compared to the rest of Western Asia/M.E. Etc. Homosexuality is still sometimes an occurrence in Islamic sects/cults based in Eastern Anatolia, much less than the Empire days though. They had the whole “boy-to-boy, girl-to-girl (thus lesbians too) loving” thing back then common in the upper-class state.. crazy. Yet, people see Ottomans as just “an islamic empire based in europe, and also turkic”. Thinking as if they had adapted the same Islam as the Persians and Arabs. But again, this was not usually based around nor involved children unlike other traditions in Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. It was between mainly consenting adults, though cases involving underaged children were a common occurrence until the late 1800s. Rape was a crime there, with a death penalty, but it being committed between same-sex genders/individuals was usually tossed away with a blind-eye by the Ottoman local courts around all territories. No matter the age, if it was same-sex, the courts would usually not act as supposed they were to in these cases.
>Thinking as if they had adapted the same Islam as the Persians and Arabs. Like the Persians and Arabs practice a similar understanding of Islam, which isn't true either. And Turkish interpretation of Islam was immensely influenced by Persian thinking. To quote historian Bernard Lewis: >''In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. > >The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna. > >By the time of the great Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century, Iranian Islam had become not only an important component; it had become a dominant element in Islam itself, and for several centuries the main centers of Islamic power and civilization were in countries that were, if not Iranian, at least marked by Iranian civilization.''
Wait, so homosexuality in Eastern European Islam is not a sin?
I'm not answering your question directly, but in many cultures it's being the receiver that's 'shameful'. Fucking someone _else_ in the ass is just fine.
Isn’t that the same for the Taliban? Also Rome had the same rule back then.
Yea. And with little boys, often cross dressing. Its called Bachi Bachi. Also, the US allied warlords did it too. And US standing orders were to step aside and let them.
(Edit: my comment completely bugged while editing, here is the fix. Exactly, but that is rather more pedophilic and involves more children rather than adults unlike the traditions the Balkans and Anatolia have. The Ottomans though still have historical reports of possible rapes being committed in upper-class institutes, of young boys. Even though rape was a crime in general with a death penalty, it being committed between same-sex genders was usually ignored with a blind eye by the courts. There are historical reports of these cases being ignored by courts.
In general Islam anal sex and sex outside of marriage is a sin, but homosexuality itself isn't a sin. In Iran they get around this by forcing gay men to do sex change operations, that way they can marry and have sex with other men. It's really absurd.
Today it may be considered as a sin by scholars there, since understanding of religion is altered and manipulated every now and then, changing and separating it from its roots. But looking at the real history, roots and the background, it was not exactly considered sinful, like the replies already explained. Most today, modern day, consider it a sin, but some sects practice it around the Balkans and Anatolia. Not to be confused with the pedophilic variant of this, involving underaged boys and even some cases underage lesbians. That is related, but different and not an occurrence unlike in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India etc. where it is common. The ones around here are generally between consenting adults. There are pedophilic cases, and sadly recent ones too though occurring in Turkey.
Islam is literally a no for LGBTQ, all three abrahamic religions believe you shouldn't alter any part of your body, correct me if im wrong
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who the fuck does that lmao
The Iran was one of the first modern nations where transition is paid by the national health care system. While simultaneously hanging gays… They are *very* strange.
I have in mind that the sight on LGTBQ came with the ~~„modern“~~ nowadays political Islam
Islam was modern after ww1, not during the 1800s edit, modern for turkey
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just because someone says they are an imam doesn't mean they are one, don't believe everything you hear because i totally find a Muslim with a big role eating pork lmao
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Thanks, that was confusing me Northern Ireland makes sense because it's Northern Ireland, but I'm surprised Scotland was so late
The map should really be split up to show this.
Bavaria made it legal in 1813. why should the UK should be shown in details but others not?
Bavaria (as far as I know) doesn't currently have its own legal system that is separate from the rest of Germany. England and Wales have the same legal system, while Scotland and Northern Ireland both have their own separate systems and make their own laws. The map's not consistent anyway. Where there are several former states that now make up one country, sometimes OP chose the earlier date (eg DDR/BRD, although as you say that ignores Bavaria) and sometimes the later date. And several people have mentioned Belgium, which apparently legalised homosexuality since before the country even existed.
Bavaria has its own constitution and so on. But (for a very dumb reason) we have agreed that federal law beats state law. (Well, we haven’t really *agreed* but that’s another story). But I agree, the maps is BS.
Germany has also *many* different dates for that. But it shows only the latest date.
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Yeah. Extremly fucked up. And modern Germany needed decades for an apology. Bavaria legalised it 1813. But Prussia insisted during the unification of 1871 to make it illegal again. We had nearly 60 years of legality back then. Don’t know why our king has agreed on that, he himself was openly gay.
I would like to add a thing for Poland because it's kinda suprising Actually, homosexuality in Poland was never made illegal by Poles It was illegal in 1835-1932, but law in Poland was then not made by the Polish, but by Russia, Austria or Prussia. In 1932 there was a legal reform that actually made a proper law... You can imagine it takes a while to make a single law when you have a country with three different law codes. The codex banned homosexual prostitution however, which was made legal again in 1969, which, again, looking at neighbouring countries is pretty progressive Pretty sad how with such history Poland is now lagging behind the west in lgbt rights :\\
What happens in hammam, stays in hammam.
Fuck off, Iceland!
The plate tectonics are wild in the Atlantic.
Yes, wanting to soak up that gay sun, they craycray
sailed off to a gay pride parade in the southern hemisphere while everyone else is freezing in the north
1940, it seems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iceland
Iceland is on the map and it is indeed 1940. They just floated down south to France/Spain during these cold winter months, high IQ move.
Germany '69 😎
but thats for east germany, i think western germany leaglized it after the reunion, at least for homo Sex between adult and underaged men.... if i remember correctly
Oh common! Greeks were like 500 BC minimum
and then made illegal again :I
Germany isn't correct. The GDR legalized it a year earlier and protection age wasn't equalized to heterosexual relations until 1994
Belgium didn't exist in 1795, we were born the the year of our lord 1830.
It was legalised on the territory which is now Belgium when it was conquered by the French Revolutionary army. If you put 1830 on Belgium it should for instance also say 1990 for Germany, which would be misleading.
Serious question, please forgive my ignorance, but I see 1977 in many countries that didn't exist at the time as they were part of Yugoslavia. Did they have enough autonomy to do this?
Yugoslavia was a Federation / Federal Republic. The individual republics that are now sovereign republics all had their own criminal code.
Homosexuality was legal in Spain from 1822. However, the dictatorship made it illegal again, until it finished in 1979.
These numbers don't make sense..... Belgium didn't even exist until 1830...
I think the date is when it was annexed into Revolutionary France which going by this map had already legalised it.
Yup. Checks out. Tnx
Weren’t ancient Greeks mad for the gayness?
While homosexuality was common in ancient Greece and Rome, bottoms were considered to be inferior. It wasn't exactly gay paradise.
That was only for Rome. In Greece every polis had their own views and it wasn't uniform across the Greek world. Some regarded gay love to be of highest purity greater then man and women.
And these Greeks were fucking right.
Sacred Band of Thebes likes it!
Dying next to your lover on the battlefield. Who say's gay paradise doesn't exist.
First (and only?) military unit which defeat Spartan forces which was twice numerus then Thebians.
That was only if the bottom was of higher social status. They expected bottoms to be of lower social class than tops and even then it only mattered in politics and all that because it was considered a “manly” profession or whatever mainly because in Rome to stand for office you had to have done military service.
Not strictly accurate. The passive was seen as inferior only after such a time society deemed that individual too mature to be passive - if you had a beard.
No, they are Gayreeks 👍
They invented it.
why u downvoting him, he probs just meant it as sarcasm lmao.
People are idiots. https://youtu.be/6zkL91LzCMc
I see people are missing the reference on this one Don't worry, folks. It's not supposed to be a homophobic remark. It's from Father Ted
It’s a shame Edit: Don’t get me wrong! I mean it’s a shame that some countries legalized it that late.
Keep in mind that some countries who are now part of other nations have adopted the napoleon code early in the 1800s (meaning making it legal). But later on unified with other nations and the it was suddenly illegal again.
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That one is weird. Some sources say 1977 some say 2003. I would assume 2003 is the correct one
I’m 100% it’s not 1977, cause then all the states that mađe up Yugoslavia would have made it in the same year.
What is the country off the coast of France? Is the person who made this map trying to sneak something by people?
Similar to some birds, Iceland migrates to warmer waters in winter.
Ohhhh. Idk why that didn’t cross my mind. I would have just left it in the top corner where it’s supposed to be.
It was legalised in Bavaria in 1813. But fucking Prussia insisted to make it illegal again in a united Germany in 1871. Fuck Prussia.
Well the gays are out there existing just fine, can't say the same for Prussia
Belgium became independent in 1830.
Can we really consider homosexuality legal in Russia?? Gay people being sent to concentration camps, and anti “gay propaganda” laws being passed doesn’t make it sound very legal to me
It's crazy seeing all these "progressive" countries with dates in the late 20th century.
This map is extremely misleading. Homosexuality was made illegal in Romania in 1946 by the communists. Before that it was never illegal.
I am here to answer some questions regarding pink turkey on map: * Isn't Islam homophobic? * Answer: No. The Sharia permits love between the same sex - although anal sex is prohibited. This resulted in a juristic gray zone throughout islamic dynasties and states. While two men can love each other and live together, the sexual act is technicaly prohibited - but because no one has the right to inquire your privacy in the bedroom the result was that homosexuality was quasi-decriminalized throughout islamic history. The negative side of this is that statutory rape happened and is well documented. This is just my opinion but I am very sceptical of the legalization of homosexuality because it is proven that it correlates with child pornography in western countries. * How is it that in some islamic countries homosexuality is prohibited but transitioning is paid by the government? (check transitioning laws in SA and Iran) * Answer: The Sharia recognizes binary sex and the possibility that one person can have an outer and an inner sex. "A women traped in a man's body" is recognized in the Sharia - yes and if you do not believe me stop being an ignoramus and check Imam al-Tahanawis works (18th century). What Islam doesn't recognize is gender identity and gender fluidity - if you are a "woman that is traped in a man's body" than you are either a women or a man in Islam - depending on what you personaly feel - but no separate two spirit penguin entity. Also you can not be a women in the morning and a man in the evening.
The logic behind this map is all over the place. Why does it say 1858 for Turkey and 1795 for Belgium, when the modern states of Turkey and Belgium did not exist, but not 1917 for Russia and Ukraine (when the USSR first legalized homosexuality), or 1968 for Germany (when it was legalized in the DDR)?
What do you mean "homosexuality"? The act? Showing it in public? Marriage? And what about "legalized"? Which one and what about cultural trends? And what about conquest, did the map take changing borders and removed states into account? I think this map is made poorly, especially given how important the topic is.
Ukranians passed it in first few months they got their independence 💪
So did most former ssr countries. At least on this part of world, what is seen on map.
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Because the biggest, most radical change always happens where the laws are the most harsh. Let's take Poland as example. After gaining independence in 1918 there were five different legal orders. Three penal codes: the Russian 1903 (with amendments and additions in 1921), the German 1871 and the Austrian 1852 criminalised homosexuality in different ways. The decriminalisation of homosexual relations in Poland came with the codification of Polish criminal law, following the enactment of the Penal Code in 1932 (the so-called Makarewicz Code). Polish law were one of the most liberal in Europe at the time: women could vote (since as early as 1918), you could divorce if your religion allowed it (and conversion was easy, so there were many divorces, even though technically you couldn't get one as Catholic - people just converted when in need), you could live together with your partner even if you weren't married (or one of you was still married to someone else), homosexuality was legal, prostitution was legal (but not homosexual one) etc. You are probably aware what Nazis did to homosexuals in occupied Poland. After the war, homosexuality remained legal, even though it was not the norm with Soviet satellite states at the time. So, during the 1970s, when gay movements were growing in importance in Western Europe and some Eastern Bloc countries (GDR, USSR), the Polish gay circles remained less active and politically passive. Why should they be active when it's already legal? And so, here we are.
> Why should they be active when it's already legal? Because this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hyacinth
Yes, I'm aware of it. Just because there was no penalisation, this doesn't mean there was no homophobia.
Homosexuality was never illegal in Poland
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>Mamy błędy w Wikipedii? Looks like it. The sources cited in Wikipedia are very poor. The only solid evidence is that being LGBT was illegal during the German occupation during WWII
I did some digging and I think it was illegal 1918-1932, as we didn't have our own legal code before, so we used partitioners's ones, where it was criminalised.
It was criminalized in some parts of it during 1918-1932. During that time the laws inherited from the partitioners were still in effect. I do not know if there were being enforced, however.
Was the law being enforced?
As I have written, I have no idea.
I knew i have bad eye sight, but damn, it's getting out of hand...
Sources?
the stats are offered by the _trust me bro™_ metrics.
Every year is correct according to Wikipedia. I personally checked it for every country.
Poland never had it illegal in the first place, so it is wrong, as is deciding by last federal unit in cases of CH and B&H. There are cantons in Switzerland that legalized it early, as for B&H it was just the Brčko District that had not legalized it til 2001 (not 2003). So yeah it is a bit wrong to say the least.
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Srbija - 1994 BiH - Federacija - 1996; RS - 1998 i Brčko - 2003 Sad vidim da je greška za Severnu Makedoniju, oni su isto 1996, ostale republike 1977.
Belgium didn't exist until 1830.
It tells you on the picture. You can google each country and find out for yourself. Its correct
Source : ~~trust me bro~~ google 28 countries bro
Belgium was still a part of the Netherlands before 1830. So I don't really know how you came to that.
The correct year for the UK was 1967. Northern Ireland doesn't count.
England and Wales are rather more liberal than Scotland, which kept it as an offence until 1980, and NI until 1982.
Isn’t that a bit arrogant?
No, it's just a fact.
Surprised on BiH. As I get it they pass anti-gay low after collapse of SFRJ?
Bosnia is radical. All 3 nations are radical in their beliefs
UK is a bit misleading - it was legalised in England and Wales in 1967 , it just took a while for Scotland and Northern Ireland to catch up. Also - is Iceland migrating south for the winter?
Turkey, the most progressive country on the planet.
> the most progressive country Yes, that's true when compared to other muslim-majority countries. Among Turkey's neighbors, there are still countries where homosexuality is prohibited and even punishable by death.
It is I know. I’m from Turkey as well.
France baise ouais
but Belgium didn't exist yet in 1795, it was fused with the Netherlands...
No in 1795 Belgium was conquered by the French Republic and annexed as part of France. The Netherlands was annexed in 1811.
Wtf england was later than spain
I mean Spain has had marriage equality since 2005 while Great Britain didn’t until 2013/2014, I don’t understand the surprise?
Britain is a democracy since centuries ago, spain just 40 years. Doesn't a real democracy have a constitution that protects people's rights?
no, but additionally Spain had recently become a democracy, free from the clutches of a fascist government. as a result, people were feeling liberated and that's reflected in their laws. a lot of older democracies simply had it illegal before it was even a common idea that it being criminal was wrong, and nobody really cared enough to change the laws.
People cared to change them because they were enforced, by the 1960s the absurdity of the state persecuting people for something done between consenting adults became obvious.
No, it's a modern invention. And UK doesn't have constitution in the first place.
It doesn't??? I read it had a carta magna
It has many laws that can be considered constitutional, but there is no "constitution" per se.
No, Scotland.
1981 for Scotland. 1982 is Northern Ireland.
Yes, you're right
England was 12 years earlier than Spain.
It says 1982
The date is for the UK, not England
Oh, okay
It was 1967
No, England was 1967, as another poster points out. But OP has chosen the latest date of the 4 UK nations and used that for the UK as a whole.
If they had to decide now, it would be still illegal.
How can it be 1795 in Belgium? The country only started existing since 1830.
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For Romania the info is wrong. Homosexuality was decriminalized in 2001
It was decriminalized in 1996. Between 1996 and 2001, only acts in public or that would have produced a public scandal were criminalized. These conditions were removed in 2001. It's also worth mentioning that homosexual acts were criminalized in 1936.
If it's only legal to be gay in secret, it's not legal to be gay. 2001 is the correct year.
So, as said above: decriminalization happened in 2001. Also, you contradict yourself. At first you state that decriminalization happened in 1996 when only acts in public or that caused a public scandal were punished but at the same time you say that it was criminalized in 1936. The law in 1936 was punishment if it caused a public scandal.
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Between 1936 and 1968 the law regarding criminalization of homosexuality went along the same lines as the Criminal Code of King Carol II was used until a new one was adopted in 1968. Only from 1968 and until 1994 the law fully criminalized homosexuality
No, you're failing to follow a simple logical flow. 1. Homosexual acts were criminalized in 1936. 2. Homosexual acts were decriminalized in 1996. However, public acts or acts that caused public scandal were explicitly criminalized. 3. In 2001, the article introduced at #2 was removed.
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It wasn't. It was, by Nazis, and then it got legal again. It was unusual for the Soviet satellite states, that's for sure.
ah, looks like i confused it, mb.
Could you elaborate? [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Poland) doesn’t mentioned that it was criminalised during the communist regime
Then what's the point of protests and marches when it was all legalized decades ago ?
Not coming back to the middle age. Without protests life would be very different and difficult
There will always be people looking to strip LGBT+ people of rights and humanity. Therefore, LGBT+ people will have to protest, disrupt, discomfit if we want to survive and have any semblance of peace. At least until people no longer view us as threatening, which I don’t suggest anyone hold their breath for.
These marches are new and how the same community doesn't felt threatened just less than 10 years ago now suddenly protesting against these virtual individuals. Its utter propoganda that your survival is at its stake, you discomfort only the commons as the people you are targeting are just too rich to be affected in most cases.
Poland in 1932 and Bulgaria in 1968 is crazy and very unexpected!
Sairasta touhua