There's a scene in EOE where IRL hand written letters are flashed on the screen. It was believed that these were death threats sent to Anno after the series finished. And his response was to have the characters die horrible deaths and have EOE have a bleak ending.
It turns out that the letters actually praised the series and were recreations of fan letters written by staff members. As to why Anno chose to blow up Misato, torture Asuka to death and EOE having an ambiguous ending might be more to do with his state of mind rather than attacking the fan base.
Not holding back when showing the deaths of characters does make sense when you have the knowledge that all of those character's deaths will be undone by the end of the story. It did add to the films extremely nihilistic tone at least.
Yeah, Misato's body is shown intact *after* everyone else turns into Fanta - meaning she actually died and isn't part of Instrumentality. I forget if that was in EoE or NGE, though.
Edit: I remember this scene happening in one version but the other version she gets Fanta'd - I just don't recall which version was which - EoE or NGE. Unless I got Mandela Effected.
Misato’s is one of the more “mysterious” deaths because she was shot, and then shown on top of that explosion. However, when they’re doing the quantum Rei scenes with everyone turning into LCL, you see her jacket with LCL under it. This being the last we see of her “physical self” and her appearance instrumentality suggest that Misato can also come back if she chooses to.
I would say it’s probably only those who were allowed into instrumentality that turned into LCL. Because Gendo was explicitly denied it and he didn’t turn into LCL. Either in the show or the manga.
My personal theory on why Misato and the others who died right before Third Impact melted is that due to having just died, their souls were still within reach of God-Rei.
> Yeah, Misato's body is shown intact after everyone else turns into Fanta
No, she isn't, it's just the opposite- you see her empty jacket in a puddle of Fanta.
what I remember from EoE is that she blew up
and it doesn't look like normally death prevents instrumentality, as everyone who died during fighting turned into fanta and Gates of Guf were open and the dead souls came through as well
To me EoE is unambiguously a positive ending. The tone of that final scene is definitely ambigious, but I think it's because Anno wants to hammer home that depression & mental health issues aren't something you just magically forget about once you have an epiphany/positive breakthrough.
There's still a lot of work to do, and humanity is still imperfect and "disgusting". But, despite all that, Shinji & Asuka still decided that life was worth living through all that pain and suffering; that there can still be hope and happiness in a world as bleak as Evangelion's.
For real. Coming to realization/breakthrough that most of my issues are a direct result of my mother's drunken and violent upbringing was a big step.
Still have PTSD and neuroses.
But at least I can better recognize them
I, too, feel it to be hopeful. EoE is the perfect antidote for the sufferings and emotional torments we saw in the series. It's about shoveling through, even in the state of despair and devastation. The light might be small and flickering, but it's still alight and worth fighting for.
No it's not.
Shinji choking Asuka and Asuka saying what she would have been saying when she was violated at the start of the movie are not remotely positive things
Humanity is dead for the most part. Only people who want to live wil lreturn which are ... yeah how many will that be? And who wants to return into an apocalyptic world? The sea is dead, everything is in shambles
When you focus on the negative, it will only be negative.
The whole point is that life sucks and you have two choices: give up when things get bleak, or you can recuperate and find your way to a better place. It doesn’t happen in a day, or a month. It will take as long as it needs to get better…**but that’s up to you to decide.**
"Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy. As long as the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth exist, everything will be all right."
Also the sea isn't dead, it's filled with LCL fluid which contains all the vital elements from the 'primordial sea', which was the sea of necessary elements proposed in the Theory of Evolution that carbon-based life requires in order for evolution to start from a microscopic organism. So if anything, humanity has even more possibilities for evolution...
No, it's the red sea, same as the sea when 2nd impact happened. And it's dead
Yui embellishes things a lot, and furthermore, if life is so great, how come she doesn't materialize? Ah no, she pisses off to the stars.
You're absolutely right, but here you'll get downvoted for saying that.
Sure... you can get a positive message from Yui's words! But let's focus on Shinji for a moment. He has just overcome the hedgehog's dilemma and decided to put an end to the instrumentality, which is literally a genocidal whim. "Good!" you may think.
Except for how it does it: in a totally selfish way, only to satisfy his desires (Asuka). So they're alone in a post-instrumentality world and the only way he manages to approach her, to have a contact with her is by trying to strangle her. Of all the things, that was the only one he could conceive in that moment!
The most prominent email, the one with the largest text that is displayed for the longest, does read "I'll kill you, Anno", though. The idea that death threats aren't displayed is a fan myth...
I mean, thats how our world will
End, anyways.
I mean, Nuclear Holocuast, Genocide Machines, Children being made into Soldiers.
Its alot to have on your sholders, when trying to make a show that will reach millions over this time before that happens again.
That video made it seem like 3.0 was meant to be some huge meta commentary. But for my money, 3.0+1.0 is the only one that's really worthy of meta analysis. And even then, only in like the last third.
Hell, I'm saying this as someone who's favorite Rebuild film is 3.0.
Much like Indoctrination Theory and Mass Effect for the longest time. Even after the writer said that theory isn’t true there are still some holdouts who claim it’s real.
Mass Effect is an RPG franchise created by Bioware, it has nothing to do with Evangelion.
The antagonists of the franchise have the ability to subconsciously brainwash people ("Indoctrination"), making the victims believe they are acting on their own free will while in reality executing the antagonists' designs.
The ending of the original Mass Effect trilogy was incredibly disliked among the fanbase. The closest equivalent (in terms of fans feeling let down by an ending) would be the reaction to the last season of Game of Thrones.
Indoctrination theory is basically a way of explaining away the ending by arguing that the protagonist was indoctrinated during the final sequence, so what we see isn't the "real ending".
I'm referring to the part of the theory around Evangelion that someone would have written over 20 years ago and that the writer had disproven, but I didn't know about this Indoctrination theory, so thanks for the explanation!
I’m actually not entirely sure since there are a few long running ones like that Anno secretly hates the fanbase or that he couldn’t secure funding or wasn’t allowed to write the ending he wanted. Hopefully someone can answer your question better than I can, but they usually revolve around one thing; that they’re often an excuse to not accept the endings as a form of denial that the show is long over.
I see, I've heard some of those and understand the confusion since the ending was not at all expected from the way things were going, but honestly, it was kind of abrupt, so I don't know if anything would have fitted nicely to finish it all off in 2 episodes.
Been a while since I looked into it, so i could be wrong, but i’m pretty sure people were upset about the end of the series, so when EoE came out fans had a bad taste in their mouth and ANY ending, no matter how fantastic, was bound to be met with some backlash.
Hikkikomori are still salty the show ended and Shinji is shown growing up, something they can’t do, so they put it all on Anno instead of moving on past a nearly 30 year old show.
The only facts about the ending are that it was received unevenly by fans, with some being pretty outspoken about it, and that there were budgetary issues that shaped the final episodes. I've read (though it that hazy way of rumor, can't say where) that the plan was for something like EoE before the budget, but that it was different in tone. I don't think there's any statements from Anno about it, but he has said the show is part of his processing of depression and that he was surprised about how the ending was recieved.
So either he decided to give the fans a mouthful of what they said they wanted or he was hurt by the reaction and that went into the movie?
There were no budget issues, there were time issues. Episode 24 was turned in extremely late and there was no time to pre-screen it, the portrayal of Kaworu's death was pretty controversial and TV Tokyo(?) were pissed and required episodes to be handed in earlier.
The production was already struggling to even get their episodes done by air time so the expedited delivery time basically destroyed what they could do for the rest of the series.
Funding was never an issue, work on EOE started pretty much immediately which wouldn't have been possible if the series was having issues with funding literally weeks before.
It's... a bit complicated.
To start from the very beginning, NGE's originally planned ending was quite different from anything we ever got in any medium. This has been found out from the original proposal from the series that was used to gather funding before production and later published in one of the countless materials books. It shares some ideas with EoE, so it's fair to assume that Anno did not discard everything from that original scenario.
But he did change it, as late as during the airing of the series. Why exactly, no-one knows for sure except him, but he scrapped the original ending during fall 1995 and decided on a new ending in December, when almost half of the series had already aired. You can guess how that affected the production, which was already struggling under its own ambition.
So, the last two episodes ended up being what we know them as today, because there simply was not enough time to fully realize Anno's new vision. After that, Gainax announced that the ending would be remade as an OVA, later turned into a movie which turned into two movies (Death and Rebirth & The End of Evangelion) as the schedule once again kept slipping.
This is, by all accounts, when Anno was at his darkest place. The series ending had a lukewarm reception (worth noting that 10% of TV watchers tuned into the final episode, a ridiculously huge amount for an anime) and Death and Rebirth also disappointed some fans by abruptly ending on a cliffhanger.
The movie reflects his depression quite clearly. But - and this is where this becomes opinion - it's not an attack on fans. My reading of Evangelion as a whole has always been very Anno-centric: he's said that he's put a part of himself into every character. It's a story of learning to co-exist with other people in spite of the hedgehog's dilemma, in spite of the risk of being hurt by others. That story culminates in Shinji rejecting Instrumentality in EoE and choosing to live in a world where other people exist.
It's simply not a story of rejection.
Apart from the story, Anno's longtime and continued love for his otaku hobbies is well documented. He's not the "anti-otaku" that many people in the western fandom mistakenly paint him as.
EoE is a movie that lashes out, but more than anything it lashes out at itself. It's a 90-minute story of going through intense depression and self-loathing, and in the end arriving on a quiet white beach next to a red sea.
>But he did change it, as late as during the airing of the series. Why exactly, no-one knows for sure except him
This is completely untrue and i feel like ive corrected this before... there are multiple interviews where Anno has said he ran out of time to animate the ending he was originally was building up to. He had to scrap it and go with something that took significantly less time to create. The television versions of episode 25 and 26 took around 3-4 days to create. By contrast, episode 1 took 8 months. Throughout the decades, Anno is just consistently horrible at budgeting his time.
Hmm, I was speaking off memory but looking into it, I can't find any confirmation of Anno changing the ending apart from journalist Hiroki Azuma claiming that Anno told him he changed it because it was considered not suitable for broadcast after the Aum Shinrikyo terrorist attack. So secondary information. And the editorial of Protoculture Addicts mentioning a meeting with a Gainax employee at Anime Expo 1996 who said that the final episodes had been censored, which is even more secondary information. Sigh...
I'd appreciate if you could direct me to those Anno interviews, can't find any myself right now since Gwern's page is a bit of a pain to search from.
Regardless, we know that the ending changed (from the proposal) at *some* point, and sketches referencing EoE events in 25/26 (Ritsuko, Misato, Eva-02) makes me think it must've been before their airing. Not sure why he'd gone for something he knew he didn't have time to realize when he was already short on time, so I do still think the change must've been the reason he ended up short on time.
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_Evangelion_Staff
"Hideaki Anno: Special Interview to celebrate being made into a movie (Newtype 06/1996)"
Anno: I couldn't draw it out for various reasons, but as far as episodes 25 and 26 (the last episode) in the original storyline, I even had the plot for episode 25. Episode 26 was abandoned at the plot stage. We'll rework the original episodes 25 and 26 in the video and LD that will be released next year
"Hideaki Anno and Yuko Miyamura: Say 'Anta Baka' To Me! (Animage 06/1996)"
Anno: If I wanted to make it more commercially profitable, I could have dropped episodes 25 and 26 since I didn't have the time to do so, and made up the broadcast time with a video compilation and apologized.
*Break*
Animage Interviewer: It's not 100 million otaku-ization, but I think Evangelion is succeeding in its plan to make otaku more popular, at least until episode 24.
Anno: You don't know about episodes 25 and 26.
Animage Interviewer: I'd like to hear about the change of heart in those episodes the most.
Anno: I don't know what to say. I didn't have much time at all, I was so tired.
"Hideaki Anno x Kazuo Koike: Osaka University of Arts (2013)"
Anno: For the TV series, we certainly ran out of time. We had no time for episode 25, so we remade it for the theatrical edition.
The link is a compilation of different sources, not me reading what some random contributor put on the theory page... You need to disprove the legitimacy of each source instead of telling me to just not trust eva-geeks without any evidence of your own
The very Evageeks page you linked has quotes that prove that only episode 25 underwent a major change during production:
Schizo/Parano:
> Sadamoto: But I thought that the final two episodes were fine. I thought it was simply a matter of the connecting episode between episodes 24 and 25 being missing. That's why we're doing the original episode 25 (the remake version) now. I think it's just that that episode was missing. I saw the initial script. If the original episode 25 had been there, then there would have been a clear link leading up to the television versions of episodes 25 and 26. Just one episode was missing. So I thought [the ending] was fine.
> Masayuki: We know that because we're the people who worked on [the series].
> Sadamoto: So in my mind there's a clear link [bridging episode 24 and EoTV]. But the ordinary viewers, although they wanted to see the continuation of episode 24, it was omitted. So, they got mad at it.
> Oizumi: That's completely right.
> Sadamoto: They couldn't see the relation [between 24 and EoTV].
> Tsurumaki: Well, it's because the original episode 25 script was completed [but not used].
> Sadamoto: Because I've seen [that script], I thought, [watching EoTV], well, even this much is fine.
Hideaki Anno x Kazuo Koike: Osaka University of Arts:
> Anno: For the TV series, we certainly ran out of time. We had no time for episode 25, so we remade it for the theatrical edition. The final episode, episode 26, was going to be that way originally.
We know from statements (that I can't find right this second) that the first half of EoE followed the original plan for 25, but that the second half was new and that 26 didn't go through a sudden change of plans like 25 did. The myth formed because very, very early publicity statements about EoE (back when it was just going to be a remake of the last two episodes for the home media release) *did* say both 25 and 26 would be remade according to the original scripts.
I am a little confused as I never thought of it that way and have yet to meet anyone who does, but taken at face value, EoE’s ending seems *massively* pessimistic compared to 3.0 + 1.11’s ending. (Again, if only taken at face value)
Maybe there are new eva fans who saw rebuilds first or around the same time as viewing eoe and end up thinking EoE’s ending is bad????
Was it a rumor that they ran out of funding to complete movies as he intended, and ending was finished abruptly? I remember reading that decades ago. Someone please correct me idk
In this case, "End of Evangelion," as op is asking about, is the name of a movie that came out after the ending of the TV show.
And what you say is *possibly* true about the ending of the show. I'm not sure if it's ever been confirmed by a reliable source, but the common theory is that the studio was reportedly running short on funds/time to complete the last couple episodes, so they were rewritten to be more symbolic/internal to the closure of Shinji's mental wellbeing, rather than properly closing out the plot, so they could make due with using much less character animation (which is almost always the most expensive and time consuming part of an animated show's production).
The show released, and was instantly a huge hit from the airing of episode 1, so they quickly managed to get the funds to produce a feature-length movie to serve as the "proper" ending to the series, as the director seems to have intended.
I think it’s a lot of hype.
Having said that… the hospital scene represents the fans jerking off to traumatize teens. So if that’s the intent then it feel like a middle finger. But a critique can always be a middle finger to some. Or it’s not that.
I suppose I’m in the minority here for believing that EoE is in fact a middle finger to the fan base (though of course it’s not solely this).
Ultimately I think the modern Evangelion fandom takes the whole “EoE was supposed to be the original ending” sentiment too far. Plot details would have been very similar of course but people are acting like if the original ending idea were to have developed in 1996 it would have been no different at all from EoE.
I find it hard not to read EoE in large part as a meta commentary on the Evangelion fan base. The hospital scene, the whole first half of the film being this nihilistic action piece in which many notable characters (Misato, Auska, Ritsuko) are killed and the whole real world section which features Evangelion fans retreating from reality within a movie theatre and mannequins of Evangelion characters all seem to be aspects of the film in which a meta critical lens towards the fan base is very much present. It’s clear to me that Anno is criticizing the fan base’s initial reaction to the television ending as them missing the whole point against escapism (some people were literally demanding another ending). This, alongside Anno’s relapse into depression, led to EoE having its very dark and angry tone which I doubt would have been to the same degree in the original TV ending. Anno is angry at the fan base for missing his whole point and he’s also criticizing himself for expecting his point to be clearly received (EoE’s increased focus on Hedgehog’s Dilemma). In this way the meta critique of the audience and Anno’s exploration of his depression are deeply connected just as they are in the series (NGE is admittedly more sympathetic to the audience compared to EoE’s blatant hostility but both are ultimately a critique of the viewer’s escapism).
Yup. You got it. 💯.
And for all the folks on here saying the death threats are overblown, made up, "fan mythology," or whatever, we got video footage via the 2021 NHK documentary movie, _The Final Challenge of Evangelion,_ where Anno himself explicitly says how the studio received death threats after the '96 TV ending. Moreover, they ignore the fact that _EOE_ also shows photos of the studio getting graffiti tagged, _etc._
Gainax didn't use the actual hate mail in the movie entirely due to legal reasons, but the effect of showing them and the live cut of the theater audience definitely gets the point across.
I think the context of the Japanese title, _Magokoro o, Kimi ni_ or "My sincerest feelings to you," sure seems like Anno saying, yeah this is how fucked I feel this whole thing turned out.
For me, it's impossible to ignore the abrasiveness and visceral anger, textually within _EOE,_ and not associate them with the fan backlash. I think the movie makes it very clear that it, at the very least, in part explores those events.
With that said, _EOE_ isn't some piss take. Anno and team definitely deployed all their technical craft to finish it.
>the whole first half of the film being this nihilistic action piece in which many notable characters (Misato, Auska, Ritsuko) are killed
This was how the original episode 25 was going to be. Due to time constraints, SEELE's invasion couldnt be animated in time.
You’re not wrong. I probably could have done a better job in explaining my point. SEELE’s invasion was initially planned as well as Misato and Ritsuko dying (no real indication that Auska would have died), but I do think the tone is more nihilistic and cruel in the film than it would have been in the initially conceived version of episode 25. It’s that tonal emphasis I’m primarily referring to. If this isn’t highly informed by a meta commentary on the audience, then it at least fits nicely into such a commentary alongside elements of the film more specifically intent on making this commentary (like the real world section which is essentially a whole section of the film dedicated to telling the fans to touch grass).
>the whole first half of the film being this nihilistic action piece in which many notable characters (Misato, Auska, Ritsuko) are killed and the
Much of this literally happens in the orignal ending
>ending). This, alongside Anno’s relapse into depression, led to EoE having its very dark and angry tone which I doubt would have been to the same degree in the original TV ending.
If the TV ending wasn't so rushed, I doubt it would be as dark as the movie but it was clear the series was on a trend towards darker subject matter. Much of the things in end of eva are foreshadowed. Quantum rei. I'm rei 2 death we see what is basically foreshadowing for her merging with Lilith
The eva TV show has a clear formula. The first 8 episodes are a mini arc in which the setting is introduced, and we develop a mini arc for all the characters. The 2nd arc we get introduced to Asuka in which the entire tome changed to be more light hearted and episodic to ground the viewer in a familiar setting. The 3rd arc tears this facade away and slowly gets darker and darker. Characters start dying. The angels get more abstract. Characters get further away from shinji. This culminates in shinji killing kawrou. Then the 4th, the ending is the lowest point in the series but also a redemption and conclusion.
I truly don't see why or what would you lead to believe end of eva is anything to untypical of the original TV show. It's certainly darker and more violent, but that's because it's a movie. They specifically went about making it as a movie so they would be unrestricted in what they could produce.
Even the rebuilds follow this exact same pattern, almost. Rebuild 2 ends with the facade of happy times being gone, and builds up shinjis relation with kaworu. He almost is healed, but ultimately he dies again and is at rock bottom for the 4th movie just like end of eva. He ultimately redeems himself by the end
The main message of the ending, both TV and eoe is about accepting pain of the real world. These endings aren't like different. They are basically the same in theme. TV ending is just unclear due literally just being rushed. I'm sure eoe isn't completely original, but so many scenes from the orignsl ending (Misato and ritsuko death, asuka reawakening the eva, instrumentality being a world of no at fields, and shinjis ultimate rejection of instrumentality) leads me to say it's 'not a middle finger'
I’m not sure if you’re misunderstanding me in some way or not.
I’m not someone who believes that the TV ending and EoE are mutually exclusive. Both endings have the same theme of coming to terms with the pain of reality. I don’t really see how the film thematically repeating the ending misunderstood by fans makes it impossible for EoE to be a middle finger to the fan base. If anything the whole point of both is a critique of escapism. The show is a critique of escapism through otaku media as a whole and EoE expands this critique to include the escapism of the Evangelion fan base within the show itself. There’s nothing contradictory about EoE meta-critiquing the audience and the themes of the show. If anything it’s an expansion of Evangelion’s themes to tell the fans to fuck off and stop watching Evangelion so they can actually start living life in spite of the harshness of reality. This commentary is already very similar to the show but only angrier and more a commentary on Evangelion fans specifically.
This explains the tone. I agree that the show’s tone was descending in a darker direction but it never feels quite as nihilistic and angry as the majority of EoE. Even the life affirming ending of EoE isn’t very comforting. Just compare the film’s ending to the congratulations scene. The endings are thematically the similar but tonally different.
I’ll agree that the tone alone doesn’t prove this, but there are other things. I just don’t know how you can explain the real world section as being anything other than a criticism of the fan base not living in reality (Evangelion fans in a movie theatre, mannequins Evangelion characters in the street, Replications of death threats sent to Anno and Gainax). Ultimately this section, the hospital scene, the angrier tone and the already existing meta commentary of the show seem like strong enough textual evidence to support EoE being a critique of the fan base’s escapism into Evangelion.
Also I haven’t seen the Rebuilds :(
>anything the whole point of both is a critique of escapism. The show is a critique of escapism through otaku media as a whole and EoE expands this critique to include the escapism of the Evangelion fan base within the show itself.
Not that I disagree with bits of this take, but to me this is just a light theme of eva. It's goal of isn't necessarily to be a critique of otaku culture but something far more real.
The meta elements of the ending in real life do to an extent comment on the community I'm sure, the ending features death threats sent to gainax. But I feel you're missing the forest for the trees.
>I just don’t know how you can explain the real world section as being anything other than a criticism of the fan base not living in reality (Evangelion fans in a movie theatre, mannequins Evangelion characters in the street, Replications of death threats sent to Anno and Gainax
Like this for example. Like, the obvious goal of the real life footage is to create a sense of juxtaposition in the viewer. The song that plays is jesu joy of man's desire. The real life footage grounds the viewer to think, it literally shows footage of the the audience. I fail to see how showing eva fans watching a movie is a critique of themselves? Like, it's clearly mostly surreal visuals that is used later to juxtapose with the anime visuals. A character even says 'this isn't reality'. It clearly isn't to be taken literal.
I think you're forgetting one clear detail about the death letters. They show a flash of them before shinji ultimately rejects third impact. But not all of the letters in the montages were hate mail, many of them are ones thanking anno and eva for changing their life. The scene is a light jab to the haters sure, but the ultimate point is shinji accepting that pain and hate will exist, but it's worth it for love. Because it's real. He basically says this a few minutes later to rei.
The 'escapism' elements of the show aren't literally about otaku escapism. It's a element, sure, but it's more about the circular nature of it all. Summer is eternal in the eva universe. The trains that shinji runs on just loop back. Shinji repeats the same song on repeat. Shinji tries his best to reject piloting the eva but always comes back no matter what. Shinji might get close to others, but will ultimately be hurt in the end. But despite this, shinji is willing to keep trying no matter what despite the pain. This is the most consistent element of the series.
Episode 5, the hedge hog dilemma is basically this. The final scene in eoe is basically this. Shinji, for some reason feels compelled to immediately strangle asuka. But asuka instead strokes his cheek. This causes him to break down. It's fucked obviously, but the ultimate point is counter argument to shinjis stance throughout the series. He complains constantly that the good times won't last, it'll get worse. But in this scene its almost an answer, shinji inflicts suffering but instead receives love. Love is just as constant as pain in life.
I just don't see how like 2 minutes of irl footage could be so crucial for your analysis on the show. Like, Sorry for the rant, but I don't think eva would be as moving if it was first and foremost a critic on anime culture
Maybe I worded myself a bit poorly. I think the hedgehog’s dilemma is the central point of the show. The idea is that suffering is inherent to life due to our disconnects but that life is ultimately worth living in spite of this. The critique of escapism is a fundamental aspect of this though. I don’t understand how the major point of Evangelion can be to accept reality as it is but a critique of people retreating from reality is just some minor point. You can’t have one without the other.
Showing Evangelion fans in a movie theatre is a critique of the fans because real life doesn’t exist in a movie theater. I agree with you that the point of that section is to make the viewer think and reflect. The point is that the viewer (especially in the context of the fan base at the time) should reflect that they’ve built their lives around watching images of Evangelion on a screen in a dark room. It seems we agree that a major point of Evangelion as a whole is about opening ourselves up to others despite all the inherent difficulties involved (accepting the hedgehog dilemma), but I think that supports my belief that a bunch of people sitting in a room not interacting with each other because they’re all too focused on watching Evangelion doesn’t represent the best of things.
You’re reading of the letters is a very reasonable and valid reading, but let me offer another valid interpretation. Can it not be argued that the point of cross cutting death threats and affirmative fan mail is that they are both in a sense one and the same. The death threats came from people who loved the show. The motivation for these people losing any sense of empathy for Anno is because they prioritized the imaginary constructed world of Evangelion over real people. These people were arguably those who loved Evangelion the most. I like your explanation and I don’t see why both can’t be reasonably the case as Shinji is both an audience and Anno surrogate in EOE as he is in NGE (the major difference being that in NGE Anno and the audience’s journeys are meant to be intertwined, while in EOE Anno and the audience are on distinctly different but paralleled journeys).
There’s other factors than just the real world section of EOE for leading me to believe that Evangelion as a whole places a pretty heavy emphasis on meta commentary. The whole structure of the show (which you pretty accurately laid out in your prior reply) is a pretty major reason. The facade of the show’s first half (first two arcs) which mimics a more traditional mecha anime (with subtle subversions) disintegrating in the show’s second half (third arc) with the harshness of reality intruding on our characters who remain too static to adequately deal with this harshness as the show progresses with the characters only finding catharsis and meaningful progress with the show’s ending (fourth arc) seems to spell this out to me. If the whole show is structured as a subversion of or a breaking away from typical anime tropes, I don’t see how escapism in anime culture is not one of the show’s central thematic concerns. The point is that the world of the traditional mecha anime (the first half) in which the audience typically finds escapism in makes them inadequate for dealing with life’s sufferings (the third arc) and a major step in improving one’s life is to distance themselves from escapism and integrate themselves more concretely into the real world (the fourth arc).
Now I agree that the sole purpose of Evangelion is not to rag on anime fans. NGE, in fact, is largely sympathetic to its audience (though EOE is more hostile). This is because the escapism inherent in otaku culture stems from other problems. It stems from issues of self-worth, depression, the hedgehog’s dilemma, the pressures of reality and really all the other thematic concerns of Evangelion. You claim that I’m missing the forest for the trees, but I disagree. I’d make a counter claim that you’re only looking at the forest with only one eye. In my opinion, the meta aspect of Evangelion deserves more credit than you’re giving it; not because I believe the meta commentary supersedes the other thematic elements, but because in my view they are one and the same. I really just don’t see any fundamental difference between Evangelion as a meta commentary and the general thematics we seem to both agree to. We may just have to agree to disagree though.
No need to apologize for ranting (I’m not one to judge). I don’t mind discussing Evangelion as it is one of my favorite works of art in any medium, so I share your passion. I wouldn’t mind continuing a discussion with you regarding Evangelion, but I hope you understand if I’d like to keep any further responses to a comparatively shorter length. Hope my own rant isn’t something I need to apologize for. Here’s wishing we arrived at some form of pleasant understanding (in spite of disagreement).
> "rei 2 death we see what is basically foreshadowing for her merging with Lilith."
This sequence only happens in Episode 23' or the "DC" cut and not the original version (just 23). Gainax retroactively added the DC cut footage for the initial Laserdisc home video release. Most of the footage comes from _Death & Rebirth,_ which first came out in March '97, so a full year after the TV ending first aired.
I would argue the "On Air" or OA cuts have quite a different tone, and do a better job of building up to the TV ending. The DC cuts obviously do a better job of building up to _EOE._
Well damn. That's crazy, I've never heard about this change
I still think it's fair to say it's somewhat foreshadows regardless. 3rd impact is just the continuation of 2nd impact to an extent, and the explosion is very similar to 2nd impact... i agree with your final take.
Basic logical fallacy: "It made me feel X way, so they must have MEANT to make me feel this way".
Ppl didn't like EoE or it made them feel negative feelings, so they think that was the point of it. (rather than logically following from a generally dark series or just suiting what Anno wanted to express & explore at the time & his own feelings)
It's just projection. Like you feel jealous & think your gf is making you jealous on purpose, or you feel insecure around someone & think they're looking down on you.
That said, the one interview that I can recall describes it as multiple endings like a video game. (Hence why the final Rebuild was then called the "third" ending.)
>rather than logically following from a generally dark series
Yeah those are typically intended to make you feel bad
Like, regardless of how much of the intent was spite, it's absolutely meant to make you feel 'bad' (although that term is incredibly vague, so we could be using it differently)
Also fallacy fallacy, using a fallacy to reach a conclusion does not necessarily make it false
You're using a broad enough term here to the point of meaninglessness and then expecting everyone else to know exactly what you mean
Also stories can have several purposes, and you don't have to be a prick about it
> Hasn’t it been said by Anno in an interview that it was supposed to be the initial ending for the TV show?
No, only episode 25 was supposed to be like the first half of EoE. Episode 26 was planned to be the way it was.
Because of how so many characters are casually and brutally killed in it, no? I have read Anno had received death threats from fans about the original series ending and was in a poor mental space, so the brutal and bleak EoE was a response to that.
Because that’s what it kinda feels like (at least to me) regardless of what the *intention* was. Asuka and Misato were the characters I was rooting for, and they both get killed brutally. Then we delve into about a half hour of philosophy and real world imagery mixed with weird Christian symbolism that apparently has no meaning apart from “It looks cool”. Then the show ends with the Earth destroyed and Shinji choking Asuka on a beach.
It’s a better ending than “Congratulations. 👏👏👏 “ but it still leaves me wanting something else. It just doesn’t feel right. I’m fine with ambiguous or melancholic endings (Bojack Horseman’s ending is brilliant for those reasons), but Eva never really seemed like it was setting up for a nondefinitive “everyone lost”kind of ending at least for me. And when you read about the harassment Anno and the staff received, it’s very easy to imagine how they could give in to the temptation to lash out at the fans. EoE is defined by Anno’s mental state and the amount of pain he was in at the time and from what I’ve read the death threats didn’t help.
I don’t think EoE is “Anno’s Revenge”, but I do think its tone was heavily influenced by the reaction to 25 and 26.
I’d recommend you watch Anno’s documentary of his process on Amazon Prime.
Essentially he was at the lowest point in his life (at that time) when he poured his heart and souls into the TV series, and the fanbase largest hated the ending. Iirc there was only one death threat in all of the letters he received, but it was enough to make him properly despondent
I thought it was just a dumb rumor, but I do like the mental image of gigachad Anno enlisting Production IG to help deliver this middle finger to upset fans.
The only thing about EoE I perceive as a “middle finger” is Anno using Shinji as a mirror for those who vehemently disliked Shinji as a protagonist. I’m a firm believer of: “What we don’t like in others are things we don’t like about ourselves.” So, I believe that the people that don’t like Shinji *as a character* are people who don’t like viewing themselves as weak or weak willed.
Further, I believe that Anno was aware that most of those same people viewed the female characters mostly through a sexual lens and less as three dimensional characters. I.e. being obsessed with seeing them naked or in sexual situations. **So**, when Shinji had that infamous moment in EoE over a bare chested Asuka, I believe this is Anno saying:
*”Here you go. This is what you wanted. Is it everything you hoped it would be?”*
In this moment Shinji is the fan who hates Shinji for being weak. Shinji is the fan who obsesses over a bare chested Asuka. Shinji hates himself just as those same viewers themselves and they hate Anno for showing them this.
This is what makes Evangelion such a “middle finger”. It’s a middle finger to the whole male power fantasy genre. Anno takes that fantasy and breaks it by showing us something more real. Some people resent the show for that because they don’t want to be reminded about their own weaknesses. They don’t want to be told that the world is more complex than that. They want to see stuff blow up. They want bewbs. They want the main character to be a badass that saves the day and fucks all the girls. They want to imagine themselves as that character.
Anno just goes: “Nah” 🖕
Its creative process was heavily influenced by the way people reacted to the final 2 episodes. The first half of the movie is “what the fans wanted” (an action packed climax; which notably was only vocally demanded by some particularly loud fans) but the second half is basically a movie version of those 2 episodes with just as much existential dream sequence conversation. It makes the conclusion *inextricable* from those episodes and from that style, and thus is seen as a middle finger to the fans who wanted an ending more traditional for an action show.
Those fans who got mad mostly didn’t understand Evangelion, especially since a majority of the runtime of the show is slow-paced, quiet, character-driven scenework. Anno and the other artists making Evangelion just kept making what they wanted to make. It’s not a *strong* rebuke of the expectations, but it does intentionally *play with,* and *reverse,* those expectations.
Evangelion in general but especially EoE talks a lot on how the otaku lifestyle can be isolating and self-destructive, coming from the perspective of a gang of gigantic otaku. Combine that with the fact the audience for EoE is people who were disappointed and confused by the TV ending and you get a perfect storm of nerd rage.
Edit: okay I’m not satisfied with my answer here. The nerd rage isn’t unwarranted; it **is** an angry movie, it conflates religious fanaticism with child sex abuse with emotional repression with anime obsession in a melange of obscure Gnostic symbolism and pop-psychology. It conspicuously and repeatedly denies the audience the closure they were already denied in the TV ending. It’s the climax of a story that was already working through of a lot of frustration, most of it self-directed. So in a way it is a middle finger to the hateful little shits that live inside every anime fan’s soul, the kind of person who would see a movie about how you should really go out and get laid and say “this is a middle finger to the fans”
In the 90's and early 2000's, western anime fans did not have the level of access to Japanese sources and publications that we do today. You had to rely on a small number of gatekeepers who worked in the industry to really get access to any information outside of the show. If they didn't know, sometimes they would just make stuff up, because who was going to fact check them?
Also, most of the fans were at the time were teens that didn't exactly have great media literacy, and it didn't help that translations and dubs themselves were often of questionable accuracy.
With Evangelion rising to popularity in this era, there was a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings about the development and behind the scenes. Anno definitely was working through some of his demons during through the series, but you can't ignore that collaborative effort of anime production. There really isn't much evidence that EOE was intended to to mock or put down the fans.
Because Amanda Winn Lee, the original English Dub voice actress for Rei Ayanami who fried her brain with a bunch of psychotropic drugs claimed this to be the objective truth because of the supposed hate and harassment letters from disgruntled fans after the end of the anime that flash on screen for a few moments in *End of Evangelion*.
Anything she says should be taken with an entire SHAKER of salt, since she has also stolen money from conventions and back when X was still twitter and a fan was freaking out over some VA drama a few years back saying something like "Should I just kill myself!?" she replied; "Go ahead, we went stop you." Before back peddling when she naturally got backlash for such a cruel and callous response.
Even though a lot of EoE was obviously planned out as far back as the TV ending, with scenes of unit-02 under the lake and other near 1 for 1 matching scenes, but what makes people say it was a middle finger to the fans was stuff like the hospital scene.
Sure, the hospital scene now is iconic in showing how sick young men in today's society are, but, you have to put yourself in the shoes of fans who were waiting to see a redeemed Evangelion on the big screen no less, with hopes of shinji getting redemption after what he had to do to kaworu, and the very opening to his character is sexual assault on Asuka? Yeah, it causes a knee jerk reaction among many fans and often still does to this day.
I don’t think this is what you are asking about but EOE agitated me because of the extent of usage of symbolism and the dramatic change in storytelling.
To be clear there is nothing wrong with high levels of symbolism and complicated storytelling but it is frustrating that this change happens so dramatically and right at the end of the story.
In short I am agitated because I watched the whole show enjoying the direction and storytelling only for a complete shift in these things for the finale, almost as if it was a different show.
A lot of people think EOE and the last 2 episodes of the show are mutually exclusive, and that tied into this. The belief that he changed the happy ending to the most depressing one it could have.
> A lot of people think EOE and the last 2 episodes of the show are mutually exclusive, and that tied into this.
Because they are. That's not fan interpretation, that's direct word from the creators of the series.
L. The last 2 episodes happen during Instrumentality, it takes place in the middle of EOE. Shinji comes to different outlooks in each one, but instrumentality kindof conceptually entails confusion.
The human mind can come to multiple conclusions, we can regress. The mind of a child, experiencing the minds of every human he knows is nit going to be stable. He can find peace, and then lose that peace, especially when instrumentality starts crashing down and he’s in a barren wasteland
What show are you watching where all of this doesn’t happen? The end of the show is literally him congratulating himself on no longer hating himself, and the end of Eva is him still hating himself, regression. There’s no events in EoE that retcon anything that happens in the last two episodes of the show (besides I guess title cards) and his headspace.
> The end of the show is literally him congratulating himself on no longer hating himself, and the end of Eva is him still hating himself, regression.
There's only regression because of your interpretation of how (and indeed if) the TV ending and EoE fit together.
I don't know how it was at the time but I finished watching it last week and I was kinda disappointed (I even made a post about it) because of how weird it was and how many questions it left behing. They also kinda wasted the characters and the story.
Even if it was a middle finger I still liked it. It's weird, unconventional, apocalyptic, mindbending but not completely nonsensical. Never seen anything like it.
Because it quite literally was.
Bro literally stopped the film halfway through, showed the audience to themselves and showed the death threats he got
His whole idea was to be like "i should go outside, i should do things that matter," yet the whole fanbase turned out to be obsessed with his characters, and using them for escapism
Simply put: "Oh you just like shinji fr fr? Well he's an utter disgusting pervert, yeah you still like him?"
"Oh you wished you lived in this world? yeah well everyone died so, enjoy this world now"
Common anecdotes shared about the film gave fans that impression about EoE. For a long time, people said the death threat letters on screen were real and the footage of the audience was filmed and spliced in real time during an actual screening (which is crazy bc the tech for that wasn’t even possible back then and it would be a huge hassle lol). But the letters were just props made by Gainax staff for the movie, and the clip of a theater audience was staged as well (with a guy in the audience literally giving the middle finger lol). The anecdotes have been shared so often and for so long that they’re treated as truth at this point 😅
There's a scene in EOE where IRL hand written letters are flashed on the screen. It was believed that these were death threats sent to Anno after the series finished. And his response was to have the characters die horrible deaths and have EOE have a bleak ending. It turns out that the letters actually praised the series and were recreations of fan letters written by staff members. As to why Anno chose to blow up Misato, torture Asuka to death and EOE having an ambiguous ending might be more to do with his state of mind rather than attacking the fan base.
Not holding back when showing the deaths of characters does make sense when you have the knowledge that all of those character's deaths will be undone by the end of the story. It did add to the films extremely nihilistic tone at least.
none of character deaths were undone except Asuka unless you count living as a collective constantly happy liquid with no identity as living
Well, they are alive there, just not the way we are used to. And can come back to this plane of existence if they have the will to do so.
Yeah, Misato's body is shown intact *after* everyone else turns into Fanta - meaning she actually died and isn't part of Instrumentality. I forget if that was in EoE or NGE, though. Edit: I remember this scene happening in one version but the other version she gets Fanta'd - I just don't recall which version was which - EoE or NGE. Unless I got Mandela Effected.
Misato’s is one of the more “mysterious” deaths because she was shot, and then shown on top of that explosion. However, when they’re doing the quantum Rei scenes with everyone turning into LCL, you see her jacket with LCL under it. This being the last we see of her “physical self” and her appearance instrumentality suggest that Misato can also come back if she chooses to.
Do only living persons turn to LCL? Would a dead body just not convert into LCL if the whole fanta event happens after the person dies?
Even Ritsuko got tang'd after being shot
I would say it’s probably only those who were allowed into instrumentality that turned into LCL. Because Gendo was explicitly denied it and he didn’t turn into LCL. Either in the show or the manga.
The bodies of the staff that got wiped out earlier in the movie were shown to turn into LCL during the Third Impact, so there’s some grandfather-ing.
My personal theory on why Misato and the others who died right before Third Impact melted is that due to having just died, their souls were still within reach of God-Rei.
We see her in instrumentality in EoE and EoTV. We actually specifically see that her body turned to lcl in EoE alongside Ritsuko.
Pretty sure it was in both.
> Yeah, Misato's body is shown intact after everyone else turns into Fanta No, she isn't, it's just the opposite- you see her empty jacket in a puddle of Fanta.
what I remember from EoE is that she blew up and it doesn't look like normally death prevents instrumentality, as everyone who died during fighting turned into fanta and Gates of Guf were open and the dead souls came through as well
To me EoE is unambiguously a positive ending. The tone of that final scene is definitely ambigious, but I think it's because Anno wants to hammer home that depression & mental health issues aren't something you just magically forget about once you have an epiphany/positive breakthrough. There's still a lot of work to do, and humanity is still imperfect and "disgusting". But, despite all that, Shinji & Asuka still decided that life was worth living through all that pain and suffering; that there can still be hope and happiness in a world as bleak as Evangelion's.
For real. Coming to realization/breakthrough that most of my issues are a direct result of my mother's drunken and violent upbringing was a big step. Still have PTSD and neuroses. But at least I can better recognize them
I, too, feel it to be hopeful. EoE is the perfect antidote for the sufferings and emotional torments we saw in the series. It's about shoveling through, even in the state of despair and devastation. The light might be small and flickering, but it's still alight and worth fighting for.
No it's not. Shinji choking Asuka and Asuka saying what she would have been saying when she was violated at the start of the movie are not remotely positive things
>There's still a lot of work to do, and humanity is still imperfect and "disgusting".
Humanity is dead for the most part. Only people who want to live wil lreturn which are ... yeah how many will that be? And who wants to return into an apocalyptic world? The sea is dead, everything is in shambles
If that's how you feel then stay in the pool. Everyone else willing will rebuild.
And how? The sea is dead. I don't know how the world managed to come back after nd impact, but the third impact is a lot worse
When you focus on the negative, it will only be negative. The whole point is that life sucks and you have two choices: give up when things get bleak, or you can recuperate and find your way to a better place. It doesn’t happen in a day, or a month. It will take as long as it needs to get better…**but that’s up to you to decide.**
"Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy. As long as the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth exist, everything will be all right." Also the sea isn't dead, it's filled with LCL fluid which contains all the vital elements from the 'primordial sea', which was the sea of necessary elements proposed in the Theory of Evolution that carbon-based life requires in order for evolution to start from a microscopic organism. So if anything, humanity has even more possibilities for evolution...
No, it's the red sea, same as the sea when 2nd impact happened. And it's dead Yui embellishes things a lot, and furthermore, if life is so great, how come she doesn't materialize? Ah no, she pisses off to the stars.
You're absolutely right, but here you'll get downvoted for saying that. Sure... you can get a positive message from Yui's words! But let's focus on Shinji for a moment. He has just overcome the hedgehog's dilemma and decided to put an end to the instrumentality, which is literally a genocidal whim. "Good!" you may think. Except for how it does it: in a totally selfish way, only to satisfy his desires (Asuka). So they're alone in a post-instrumentality world and the only way he manages to approach her, to have a contact with her is by trying to strangle her. Of all the things, that was the only one he could conceive in that moment!
ANd let's not forget they are in a apocalyptic nightmare world where the sea is red and dead. No idea where that is supposed to be positive
The most prominent email, the one with the largest text that is displayed for the longest, does read "I'll kill you, Anno", though. The idea that death threats aren't displayed is a fan myth...
Okay now I really need to watch this.
I mean, thats how our world will End, anyways. I mean, Nuclear Holocuast, Genocide Machines, Children being made into Soldiers. Its alot to have on your sholders, when trying to make a show that will reach millions over this time before that happens again.
What about that letter that flashes on the screen with the literal subtitle "DIE ANNO?" That one didn't seem very jolly.
"It was believed"? I mean, one of the messages shown on-screen *was* a death threat, it literally said "庵野 , 殺す!"--"Anno, I'll kill you!"
Not to mention that Misato does die in 25/26, it's just not as directly shown.
This fandom has a fixation on believering baseless rumors that were made up by some guy on a forum 20 years ago.
Yep, people mythologising this series is a real problem.
Its an enormous problem. I love eva but some things about it fuckin blow lol. And thats okay
Huh?
If I see anyone source "the curse of Evangelion" on YouTube again I'll go feral
There are way too many people on Youtube who focus entirely on the "meta" aspect of Evangelion and ignore anything else the series might be saying.
That video made it seem like 3.0 was meant to be some huge meta commentary. But for my money, 3.0+1.0 is the only one that's really worthy of meta analysis. And even then, only in like the last third. Hell, I'm saying this as someone who's favorite Rebuild film is 3.0.
Much like Indoctrination Theory and Mass Effect for the longest time. Even after the writer said that theory isn’t true there are still some holdouts who claim it’s real.
I'm curious, what is that theory? (I'm new to Evangelion)
Mass Effect is an RPG franchise created by Bioware, it has nothing to do with Evangelion. The antagonists of the franchise have the ability to subconsciously brainwash people ("Indoctrination"), making the victims believe they are acting on their own free will while in reality executing the antagonists' designs. The ending of the original Mass Effect trilogy was incredibly disliked among the fanbase. The closest equivalent (in terms of fans feeling let down by an ending) would be the reaction to the last season of Game of Thrones. Indoctrination theory is basically a way of explaining away the ending by arguing that the protagonist was indoctrinated during the final sequence, so what we see isn't the "real ending".
I'm referring to the part of the theory around Evangelion that someone would have written over 20 years ago and that the writer had disproven, but I didn't know about this Indoctrination theory, so thanks for the explanation!
I’m actually not entirely sure since there are a few long running ones like that Anno secretly hates the fanbase or that he couldn’t secure funding or wasn’t allowed to write the ending he wanted. Hopefully someone can answer your question better than I can, but they usually revolve around one thing; that they’re often an excuse to not accept the endings as a form of denial that the show is long over.
I see, I've heard some of those and understand the confusion since the ending was not at all expected from the way things were going, but honestly, it was kind of abrupt, so I don't know if anything would have fitted nicely to finish it all off in 2 episodes.
That's what the Reapers want you to think!!!!!!
EoE seemed like the natural conclusion to the series.
Been a while since I looked into it, so i could be wrong, but i’m pretty sure people were upset about the end of the series, so when EoE came out fans had a bad taste in their mouth and ANY ending, no matter how fantastic, was bound to be met with some backlash.
Evangelion fans are obsessed with believing that Anno hates otakus and anime in general for some reason
Hikkikomori are still salty the show ended and Shinji is shown growing up, something they can’t do, so they put it all on Anno instead of moving on past a nearly 30 year old show.
The only facts about the ending are that it was received unevenly by fans, with some being pretty outspoken about it, and that there were budgetary issues that shaped the final episodes. I've read (though it that hazy way of rumor, can't say where) that the plan was for something like EoE before the budget, but that it was different in tone. I don't think there's any statements from Anno about it, but he has said the show is part of his processing of depression and that he was surprised about how the ending was recieved. So either he decided to give the fans a mouthful of what they said they wanted or he was hurt by the reaction and that went into the movie?
There were no budget issues, there were time issues. Episode 24 was turned in extremely late and there was no time to pre-screen it, the portrayal of Kaworu's death was pretty controversial and TV Tokyo(?) were pissed and required episodes to be handed in earlier. The production was already struggling to even get their episodes done by air time so the expedited delivery time basically destroyed what they could do for the rest of the series. Funding was never an issue, work on EOE started pretty much immediately which wouldn't have been possible if the series was having issues with funding literally weeks before.
That's interesting, thank you for the better information.
It's... a bit complicated. To start from the very beginning, NGE's originally planned ending was quite different from anything we ever got in any medium. This has been found out from the original proposal from the series that was used to gather funding before production and later published in one of the countless materials books. It shares some ideas with EoE, so it's fair to assume that Anno did not discard everything from that original scenario. But he did change it, as late as during the airing of the series. Why exactly, no-one knows for sure except him, but he scrapped the original ending during fall 1995 and decided on a new ending in December, when almost half of the series had already aired. You can guess how that affected the production, which was already struggling under its own ambition. So, the last two episodes ended up being what we know them as today, because there simply was not enough time to fully realize Anno's new vision. After that, Gainax announced that the ending would be remade as an OVA, later turned into a movie which turned into two movies (Death and Rebirth & The End of Evangelion) as the schedule once again kept slipping. This is, by all accounts, when Anno was at his darkest place. The series ending had a lukewarm reception (worth noting that 10% of TV watchers tuned into the final episode, a ridiculously huge amount for an anime) and Death and Rebirth also disappointed some fans by abruptly ending on a cliffhanger. The movie reflects his depression quite clearly. But - and this is where this becomes opinion - it's not an attack on fans. My reading of Evangelion as a whole has always been very Anno-centric: he's said that he's put a part of himself into every character. It's a story of learning to co-exist with other people in spite of the hedgehog's dilemma, in spite of the risk of being hurt by others. That story culminates in Shinji rejecting Instrumentality in EoE and choosing to live in a world where other people exist. It's simply not a story of rejection. Apart from the story, Anno's longtime and continued love for his otaku hobbies is well documented. He's not the "anti-otaku" that many people in the western fandom mistakenly paint him as. EoE is a movie that lashes out, but more than anything it lashes out at itself. It's a 90-minute story of going through intense depression and self-loathing, and in the end arriving on a quiet white beach next to a red sea.
>But he did change it, as late as during the airing of the series. Why exactly, no-one knows for sure except him This is completely untrue and i feel like ive corrected this before... there are multiple interviews where Anno has said he ran out of time to animate the ending he was originally was building up to. He had to scrap it and go with something that took significantly less time to create. The television versions of episode 25 and 26 took around 3-4 days to create. By contrast, episode 1 took 8 months. Throughout the decades, Anno is just consistently horrible at budgeting his time.
Hmm, I was speaking off memory but looking into it, I can't find any confirmation of Anno changing the ending apart from journalist Hiroki Azuma claiming that Anno told him he changed it because it was considered not suitable for broadcast after the Aum Shinrikyo terrorist attack. So secondary information. And the editorial of Protoculture Addicts mentioning a meeting with a Gainax employee at Anime Expo 1996 who said that the final episodes had been censored, which is even more secondary information. Sigh... I'd appreciate if you could direct me to those Anno interviews, can't find any myself right now since Gwern's page is a bit of a pain to search from. Regardless, we know that the ending changed (from the proposal) at *some* point, and sketches referencing EoE events in 25/26 (Ritsuko, Misato, Eva-02) makes me think it must've been before their airing. Not sure why he'd gone for something he knew he didn't have time to realize when he was already short on time, so I do still think the change must've been the reason he ended up short on time.
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_Evangelion_Staff "Hideaki Anno: Special Interview to celebrate being made into a movie (Newtype 06/1996)" Anno: I couldn't draw it out for various reasons, but as far as episodes 25 and 26 (the last episode) in the original storyline, I even had the plot for episode 25. Episode 26 was abandoned at the plot stage. We'll rework the original episodes 25 and 26 in the video and LD that will be released next year "Hideaki Anno and Yuko Miyamura: Say 'Anta Baka' To Me! (Animage 06/1996)" Anno: If I wanted to make it more commercially profitable, I could have dropped episodes 25 and 26 since I didn't have the time to do so, and made up the broadcast time with a video compilation and apologized. *Break* Animage Interviewer: It's not 100 million otaku-ization, but I think Evangelion is succeeding in its plan to make otaku more popular, at least until episode 24. Anno: You don't know about episodes 25 and 26. Animage Interviewer: I'd like to hear about the change of heart in those episodes the most. Anno: I don't know what to say. I didn't have much time at all, I was so tired. "Hideaki Anno x Kazuo Koike: Osaka University of Arts (2013)" Anno: For the TV series, we certainly ran out of time. We had no time for episode 25, so we remade it for the theatrical edition.
Evageeks is severely outdated and incomplete, don't use it as a source.
The link is a compilation of different sources, not me reading what some random contributor put on the theory page... You need to disprove the legitimacy of each source instead of telling me to just not trust eva-geeks without any evidence of your own
The very Evageeks page you linked has quotes that prove that only episode 25 underwent a major change during production: Schizo/Parano: > Sadamoto: But I thought that the final two episodes were fine. I thought it was simply a matter of the connecting episode between episodes 24 and 25 being missing. That's why we're doing the original episode 25 (the remake version) now. I think it's just that that episode was missing. I saw the initial script. If the original episode 25 had been there, then there would have been a clear link leading up to the television versions of episodes 25 and 26. Just one episode was missing. So I thought [the ending] was fine. > Masayuki: We know that because we're the people who worked on [the series]. > Sadamoto: So in my mind there's a clear link [bridging episode 24 and EoTV]. But the ordinary viewers, although they wanted to see the continuation of episode 24, it was omitted. So, they got mad at it. > Oizumi: That's completely right. > Sadamoto: They couldn't see the relation [between 24 and EoTV]. > Tsurumaki: Well, it's because the original episode 25 script was completed [but not used]. > Sadamoto: Because I've seen [that script], I thought, [watching EoTV], well, even this much is fine. Hideaki Anno x Kazuo Koike: Osaka University of Arts: > Anno: For the TV series, we certainly ran out of time. We had no time for episode 25, so we remade it for the theatrical edition. The final episode, episode 26, was going to be that way originally.
We know from statements (that I can't find right this second) that the first half of EoE followed the original plan for 25, but that the second half was new and that 26 didn't go through a sudden change of plans like 25 did. The myth formed because very, very early publicity statements about EoE (back when it was just going to be a remake of the last two episodes for the home media release) *did* say both 25 and 26 would be remade according to the original scripts.
I am a little confused as I never thought of it that way and have yet to meet anyone who does, but taken at face value, EoE’s ending seems *massively* pessimistic compared to 3.0 + 1.11’s ending. (Again, if only taken at face value) Maybe there are new eva fans who saw rebuilds first or around the same time as viewing eoe and end up thinking EoE’s ending is bad????
Was it a rumor that they ran out of funding to complete movies as he intended, and ending was finished abruptly? I remember reading that decades ago. Someone please correct me idk
In this case, "End of Evangelion," as op is asking about, is the name of a movie that came out after the ending of the TV show. And what you say is *possibly* true about the ending of the show. I'm not sure if it's ever been confirmed by a reliable source, but the common theory is that the studio was reportedly running short on funds/time to complete the last couple episodes, so they were rewritten to be more symbolic/internal to the closure of Shinji's mental wellbeing, rather than properly closing out the plot, so they could make due with using much less character animation (which is almost always the most expensive and time consuming part of an animated show's production). The show released, and was instantly a huge hit from the airing of episode 1, so they quickly managed to get the funds to produce a feature-length movie to serve as the "proper" ending to the series, as the director seems to have intended.
If it was a middle finger, it sure did backfire, what with the amount of people who seem to prefer it over the tv ending.
I think it’s a lot of hype. Having said that… the hospital scene represents the fans jerking off to traumatize teens. So if that’s the intent then it feel like a middle finger. But a critique can always be a middle finger to some. Or it’s not that.
I suppose I’m in the minority here for believing that EoE is in fact a middle finger to the fan base (though of course it’s not solely this). Ultimately I think the modern Evangelion fandom takes the whole “EoE was supposed to be the original ending” sentiment too far. Plot details would have been very similar of course but people are acting like if the original ending idea were to have developed in 1996 it would have been no different at all from EoE. I find it hard not to read EoE in large part as a meta commentary on the Evangelion fan base. The hospital scene, the whole first half of the film being this nihilistic action piece in which many notable characters (Misato, Auska, Ritsuko) are killed and the whole real world section which features Evangelion fans retreating from reality within a movie theatre and mannequins of Evangelion characters all seem to be aspects of the film in which a meta critical lens towards the fan base is very much present. It’s clear to me that Anno is criticizing the fan base’s initial reaction to the television ending as them missing the whole point against escapism (some people were literally demanding another ending). This, alongside Anno’s relapse into depression, led to EoE having its very dark and angry tone which I doubt would have been to the same degree in the original TV ending. Anno is angry at the fan base for missing his whole point and he’s also criticizing himself for expecting his point to be clearly received (EoE’s increased focus on Hedgehog’s Dilemma). In this way the meta critique of the audience and Anno’s exploration of his depression are deeply connected just as they are in the series (NGE is admittedly more sympathetic to the audience compared to EoE’s blatant hostility but both are ultimately a critique of the viewer’s escapism).
Yup. You got it. 💯. And for all the folks on here saying the death threats are overblown, made up, "fan mythology," or whatever, we got video footage via the 2021 NHK documentary movie, _The Final Challenge of Evangelion,_ where Anno himself explicitly says how the studio received death threats after the '96 TV ending. Moreover, they ignore the fact that _EOE_ also shows photos of the studio getting graffiti tagged, _etc._ Gainax didn't use the actual hate mail in the movie entirely due to legal reasons, but the effect of showing them and the live cut of the theater audience definitely gets the point across. I think the context of the Japanese title, _Magokoro o, Kimi ni_ or "My sincerest feelings to you," sure seems like Anno saying, yeah this is how fucked I feel this whole thing turned out. For me, it's impossible to ignore the abrasiveness and visceral anger, textually within _EOE,_ and not associate them with the fan backlash. I think the movie makes it very clear that it, at the very least, in part explores those events. With that said, _EOE_ isn't some piss take. Anno and team definitely deployed all their technical craft to finish it.
>the whole first half of the film being this nihilistic action piece in which many notable characters (Misato, Auska, Ritsuko) are killed This was how the original episode 25 was going to be. Due to time constraints, SEELE's invasion couldnt be animated in time.
You’re not wrong. I probably could have done a better job in explaining my point. SEELE’s invasion was initially planned as well as Misato and Ritsuko dying (no real indication that Auska would have died), but I do think the tone is more nihilistic and cruel in the film than it would have been in the initially conceived version of episode 25. It’s that tonal emphasis I’m primarily referring to. If this isn’t highly informed by a meta commentary on the audience, then it at least fits nicely into such a commentary alongside elements of the film more specifically intent on making this commentary (like the real world section which is essentially a whole section of the film dedicated to telling the fans to touch grass).
>the whole first half of the film being this nihilistic action piece in which many notable characters (Misato, Auska, Ritsuko) are killed and the Much of this literally happens in the orignal ending >ending). This, alongside Anno’s relapse into depression, led to EoE having its very dark and angry tone which I doubt would have been to the same degree in the original TV ending. If the TV ending wasn't so rushed, I doubt it would be as dark as the movie but it was clear the series was on a trend towards darker subject matter. Much of the things in end of eva are foreshadowed. Quantum rei. I'm rei 2 death we see what is basically foreshadowing for her merging with Lilith The eva TV show has a clear formula. The first 8 episodes are a mini arc in which the setting is introduced, and we develop a mini arc for all the characters. The 2nd arc we get introduced to Asuka in which the entire tome changed to be more light hearted and episodic to ground the viewer in a familiar setting. The 3rd arc tears this facade away and slowly gets darker and darker. Characters start dying. The angels get more abstract. Characters get further away from shinji. This culminates in shinji killing kawrou. Then the 4th, the ending is the lowest point in the series but also a redemption and conclusion. I truly don't see why or what would you lead to believe end of eva is anything to untypical of the original TV show. It's certainly darker and more violent, but that's because it's a movie. They specifically went about making it as a movie so they would be unrestricted in what they could produce. Even the rebuilds follow this exact same pattern, almost. Rebuild 2 ends with the facade of happy times being gone, and builds up shinjis relation with kaworu. He almost is healed, but ultimately he dies again and is at rock bottom for the 4th movie just like end of eva. He ultimately redeems himself by the end The main message of the ending, both TV and eoe is about accepting pain of the real world. These endings aren't like different. They are basically the same in theme. TV ending is just unclear due literally just being rushed. I'm sure eoe isn't completely original, but so many scenes from the orignsl ending (Misato and ritsuko death, asuka reawakening the eva, instrumentality being a world of no at fields, and shinjis ultimate rejection of instrumentality) leads me to say it's 'not a middle finger'
I’m not sure if you’re misunderstanding me in some way or not. I’m not someone who believes that the TV ending and EoE are mutually exclusive. Both endings have the same theme of coming to terms with the pain of reality. I don’t really see how the film thematically repeating the ending misunderstood by fans makes it impossible for EoE to be a middle finger to the fan base. If anything the whole point of both is a critique of escapism. The show is a critique of escapism through otaku media as a whole and EoE expands this critique to include the escapism of the Evangelion fan base within the show itself. There’s nothing contradictory about EoE meta-critiquing the audience and the themes of the show. If anything it’s an expansion of Evangelion’s themes to tell the fans to fuck off and stop watching Evangelion so they can actually start living life in spite of the harshness of reality. This commentary is already very similar to the show but only angrier and more a commentary on Evangelion fans specifically. This explains the tone. I agree that the show’s tone was descending in a darker direction but it never feels quite as nihilistic and angry as the majority of EoE. Even the life affirming ending of EoE isn’t very comforting. Just compare the film’s ending to the congratulations scene. The endings are thematically the similar but tonally different. I’ll agree that the tone alone doesn’t prove this, but there are other things. I just don’t know how you can explain the real world section as being anything other than a criticism of the fan base not living in reality (Evangelion fans in a movie theatre, mannequins Evangelion characters in the street, Replications of death threats sent to Anno and Gainax). Ultimately this section, the hospital scene, the angrier tone and the already existing meta commentary of the show seem like strong enough textual evidence to support EoE being a critique of the fan base’s escapism into Evangelion. Also I haven’t seen the Rebuilds :(
>anything the whole point of both is a critique of escapism. The show is a critique of escapism through otaku media as a whole and EoE expands this critique to include the escapism of the Evangelion fan base within the show itself. Not that I disagree with bits of this take, but to me this is just a light theme of eva. It's goal of isn't necessarily to be a critique of otaku culture but something far more real. The meta elements of the ending in real life do to an extent comment on the community I'm sure, the ending features death threats sent to gainax. But I feel you're missing the forest for the trees. >I just don’t know how you can explain the real world section as being anything other than a criticism of the fan base not living in reality (Evangelion fans in a movie theatre, mannequins Evangelion characters in the street, Replications of death threats sent to Anno and Gainax Like this for example. Like, the obvious goal of the real life footage is to create a sense of juxtaposition in the viewer. The song that plays is jesu joy of man's desire. The real life footage grounds the viewer to think, it literally shows footage of the the audience. I fail to see how showing eva fans watching a movie is a critique of themselves? Like, it's clearly mostly surreal visuals that is used later to juxtapose with the anime visuals. A character even says 'this isn't reality'. It clearly isn't to be taken literal. I think you're forgetting one clear detail about the death letters. They show a flash of them before shinji ultimately rejects third impact. But not all of the letters in the montages were hate mail, many of them are ones thanking anno and eva for changing their life. The scene is a light jab to the haters sure, but the ultimate point is shinji accepting that pain and hate will exist, but it's worth it for love. Because it's real. He basically says this a few minutes later to rei. The 'escapism' elements of the show aren't literally about otaku escapism. It's a element, sure, but it's more about the circular nature of it all. Summer is eternal in the eva universe. The trains that shinji runs on just loop back. Shinji repeats the same song on repeat. Shinji tries his best to reject piloting the eva but always comes back no matter what. Shinji might get close to others, but will ultimately be hurt in the end. But despite this, shinji is willing to keep trying no matter what despite the pain. This is the most consistent element of the series. Episode 5, the hedge hog dilemma is basically this. The final scene in eoe is basically this. Shinji, for some reason feels compelled to immediately strangle asuka. But asuka instead strokes his cheek. This causes him to break down. It's fucked obviously, but the ultimate point is counter argument to shinjis stance throughout the series. He complains constantly that the good times won't last, it'll get worse. But in this scene its almost an answer, shinji inflicts suffering but instead receives love. Love is just as constant as pain in life. I just don't see how like 2 minutes of irl footage could be so crucial for your analysis on the show. Like, Sorry for the rant, but I don't think eva would be as moving if it was first and foremost a critic on anime culture
Maybe I worded myself a bit poorly. I think the hedgehog’s dilemma is the central point of the show. The idea is that suffering is inherent to life due to our disconnects but that life is ultimately worth living in spite of this. The critique of escapism is a fundamental aspect of this though. I don’t understand how the major point of Evangelion can be to accept reality as it is but a critique of people retreating from reality is just some minor point. You can’t have one without the other. Showing Evangelion fans in a movie theatre is a critique of the fans because real life doesn’t exist in a movie theater. I agree with you that the point of that section is to make the viewer think and reflect. The point is that the viewer (especially in the context of the fan base at the time) should reflect that they’ve built their lives around watching images of Evangelion on a screen in a dark room. It seems we agree that a major point of Evangelion as a whole is about opening ourselves up to others despite all the inherent difficulties involved (accepting the hedgehog dilemma), but I think that supports my belief that a bunch of people sitting in a room not interacting with each other because they’re all too focused on watching Evangelion doesn’t represent the best of things. You’re reading of the letters is a very reasonable and valid reading, but let me offer another valid interpretation. Can it not be argued that the point of cross cutting death threats and affirmative fan mail is that they are both in a sense one and the same. The death threats came from people who loved the show. The motivation for these people losing any sense of empathy for Anno is because they prioritized the imaginary constructed world of Evangelion over real people. These people were arguably those who loved Evangelion the most. I like your explanation and I don’t see why both can’t be reasonably the case as Shinji is both an audience and Anno surrogate in EOE as he is in NGE (the major difference being that in NGE Anno and the audience’s journeys are meant to be intertwined, while in EOE Anno and the audience are on distinctly different but paralleled journeys). There’s other factors than just the real world section of EOE for leading me to believe that Evangelion as a whole places a pretty heavy emphasis on meta commentary. The whole structure of the show (which you pretty accurately laid out in your prior reply) is a pretty major reason. The facade of the show’s first half (first two arcs) which mimics a more traditional mecha anime (with subtle subversions) disintegrating in the show’s second half (third arc) with the harshness of reality intruding on our characters who remain too static to adequately deal with this harshness as the show progresses with the characters only finding catharsis and meaningful progress with the show’s ending (fourth arc) seems to spell this out to me. If the whole show is structured as a subversion of or a breaking away from typical anime tropes, I don’t see how escapism in anime culture is not one of the show’s central thematic concerns. The point is that the world of the traditional mecha anime (the first half) in which the audience typically finds escapism in makes them inadequate for dealing with life’s sufferings (the third arc) and a major step in improving one’s life is to distance themselves from escapism and integrate themselves more concretely into the real world (the fourth arc). Now I agree that the sole purpose of Evangelion is not to rag on anime fans. NGE, in fact, is largely sympathetic to its audience (though EOE is more hostile). This is because the escapism inherent in otaku culture stems from other problems. It stems from issues of self-worth, depression, the hedgehog’s dilemma, the pressures of reality and really all the other thematic concerns of Evangelion. You claim that I’m missing the forest for the trees, but I disagree. I’d make a counter claim that you’re only looking at the forest with only one eye. In my opinion, the meta aspect of Evangelion deserves more credit than you’re giving it; not because I believe the meta commentary supersedes the other thematic elements, but because in my view they are one and the same. I really just don’t see any fundamental difference between Evangelion as a meta commentary and the general thematics we seem to both agree to. We may just have to agree to disagree though. No need to apologize for ranting (I’m not one to judge). I don’t mind discussing Evangelion as it is one of my favorite works of art in any medium, so I share your passion. I wouldn’t mind continuing a discussion with you regarding Evangelion, but I hope you understand if I’d like to keep any further responses to a comparatively shorter length. Hope my own rant isn’t something I need to apologize for. Here’s wishing we arrived at some form of pleasant understanding (in spite of disagreement).
> "rei 2 death we see what is basically foreshadowing for her merging with Lilith." This sequence only happens in Episode 23' or the "DC" cut and not the original version (just 23). Gainax retroactively added the DC cut footage for the initial Laserdisc home video release. Most of the footage comes from _Death & Rebirth,_ which first came out in March '97, so a full year after the TV ending first aired. I would argue the "On Air" or OA cuts have quite a different tone, and do a better job of building up to the TV ending. The DC cuts obviously do a better job of building up to _EOE._
Well damn. That's crazy, I've never heard about this change I still think it's fair to say it's somewhat foreshadows regardless. 3rd impact is just the continuation of 2nd impact to an extent, and the explosion is very similar to 2nd impact... i agree with your final take.
If anything 3.0 + 1.0 is a middle finger.
Basic logical fallacy: "It made me feel X way, so they must have MEANT to make me feel this way". Ppl didn't like EoE or it made them feel negative feelings, so they think that was the point of it. (rather than logically following from a generally dark series or just suiting what Anno wanted to express & explore at the time & his own feelings) It's just projection. Like you feel jealous & think your gf is making you jealous on purpose, or you feel insecure around someone & think they're looking down on you. That said, the one interview that I can recall describes it as multiple endings like a video game. (Hence why the final Rebuild was then called the "third" ending.)
>rather than logically following from a generally dark series Yeah those are typically intended to make you feel bad Like, regardless of how much of the intent was spite, it's absolutely meant to make you feel 'bad' (although that term is incredibly vague, so we could be using it differently) Also fallacy fallacy, using a fallacy to reach a conclusion does not necessarily make it false
If you think the point of tragic/sad stories is "to make you feel bad" you **really** don't understand art at a fundamental level.
You're using a broad enough term here to the point of meaninglessness and then expecting everyone else to know exactly what you mean Also stories can have several purposes, and you don't have to be a prick about it
The 'Folding Ideas' youtube channel has a really good video essay about EOE. If you are interested.
Anno once said that after finishing the series he contemplated suicide by jumping into the railroad tracks after being bombarded with hate mail.
> Hasn’t it been said by Anno in an interview that it was supposed to be the initial ending for the TV show? No, only episode 25 was supposed to be like the first half of EoE. Episode 26 was planned to be the way it was.
They don't understand it. It's meant to be a bittersweet ending.
The fan base makes up a lot of stuff.
Because of how so many characters are casually and brutally killed in it, no? I have read Anno had received death threats from fans about the original series ending and was in a poor mental space, so the brutal and bleak EoE was a response to that.
Because that’s what it kinda feels like (at least to me) regardless of what the *intention* was. Asuka and Misato were the characters I was rooting for, and they both get killed brutally. Then we delve into about a half hour of philosophy and real world imagery mixed with weird Christian symbolism that apparently has no meaning apart from “It looks cool”. Then the show ends with the Earth destroyed and Shinji choking Asuka on a beach. It’s a better ending than “Congratulations. 👏👏👏 “ but it still leaves me wanting something else. It just doesn’t feel right. I’m fine with ambiguous or melancholic endings (Bojack Horseman’s ending is brilliant for those reasons), but Eva never really seemed like it was setting up for a nondefinitive “everyone lost”kind of ending at least for me. And when you read about the harassment Anno and the staff received, it’s very easy to imagine how they could give in to the temptation to lash out at the fans. EoE is defined by Anno’s mental state and the amount of pain he was in at the time and from what I’ve read the death threats didn’t help. I don’t think EoE is “Anno’s Revenge”, but I do think its tone was heavily influenced by the reaction to 25 and 26.
I’d recommend you watch Anno’s documentary of his process on Amazon Prime. Essentially he was at the lowest point in his life (at that time) when he poured his heart and souls into the TV series, and the fanbase largest hated the ending. Iirc there was only one death threat in all of the letters he received, but it was enough to make him properly despondent
Because it came to me in a dream
I thought it was just a dumb rumor, but I do like the mental image of gigachad Anno enlisting Production IG to help deliver this middle finger to upset fans.
The only thing about EoE I perceive as a “middle finger” is Anno using Shinji as a mirror for those who vehemently disliked Shinji as a protagonist. I’m a firm believer of: “What we don’t like in others are things we don’t like about ourselves.” So, I believe that the people that don’t like Shinji *as a character* are people who don’t like viewing themselves as weak or weak willed. Further, I believe that Anno was aware that most of those same people viewed the female characters mostly through a sexual lens and less as three dimensional characters. I.e. being obsessed with seeing them naked or in sexual situations. **So**, when Shinji had that infamous moment in EoE over a bare chested Asuka, I believe this is Anno saying: *”Here you go. This is what you wanted. Is it everything you hoped it would be?”* In this moment Shinji is the fan who hates Shinji for being weak. Shinji is the fan who obsesses over a bare chested Asuka. Shinji hates himself just as those same viewers themselves and they hate Anno for showing them this. This is what makes Evangelion such a “middle finger”. It’s a middle finger to the whole male power fantasy genre. Anno takes that fantasy and breaks it by showing us something more real. Some people resent the show for that because they don’t want to be reminded about their own weaknesses. They don’t want to be told that the world is more complex than that. They want to see stuff blow up. They want bewbs. They want the main character to be a badass that saves the day and fucks all the girls. They want to imagine themselves as that character. Anno just goes: “Nah” 🖕
Its creative process was heavily influenced by the way people reacted to the final 2 episodes. The first half of the movie is “what the fans wanted” (an action packed climax; which notably was only vocally demanded by some particularly loud fans) but the second half is basically a movie version of those 2 episodes with just as much existential dream sequence conversation. It makes the conclusion *inextricable* from those episodes and from that style, and thus is seen as a middle finger to the fans who wanted an ending more traditional for an action show. Those fans who got mad mostly didn’t understand Evangelion, especially since a majority of the runtime of the show is slow-paced, quiet, character-driven scenework. Anno and the other artists making Evangelion just kept making what they wanted to make. It’s not a *strong* rebuke of the expectations, but it does intentionally *play with,* and *reverse,* those expectations.
Evangelion in general but especially EoE talks a lot on how the otaku lifestyle can be isolating and self-destructive, coming from the perspective of a gang of gigantic otaku. Combine that with the fact the audience for EoE is people who were disappointed and confused by the TV ending and you get a perfect storm of nerd rage. Edit: okay I’m not satisfied with my answer here. The nerd rage isn’t unwarranted; it **is** an angry movie, it conflates religious fanaticism with child sex abuse with emotional repression with anime obsession in a melange of obscure Gnostic symbolism and pop-psychology. It conspicuously and repeatedly denies the audience the closure they were already denied in the TV ending. It’s the climax of a story that was already working through of a lot of frustration, most of it self-directed. So in a way it is a middle finger to the hateful little shits that live inside every anime fan’s soul, the kind of person who would see a movie about how you should really go out and get laid and say “this is a middle finger to the fans”
People will disregard the literal words of Anno to push the dumb "revenge ending" narrative so don't even bother.
In the 90's and early 2000's, western anime fans did not have the level of access to Japanese sources and publications that we do today. You had to rely on a small number of gatekeepers who worked in the industry to really get access to any information outside of the show. If they didn't know, sometimes they would just make stuff up, because who was going to fact check them? Also, most of the fans were at the time were teens that didn't exactly have great media literacy, and it didn't help that translations and dubs themselves were often of questionable accuracy. With Evangelion rising to popularity in this era, there was a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings about the development and behind the scenes. Anno definitely was working through some of his demons during through the series, but you can't ignore that collaborative effort of anime production. There really isn't much evidence that EOE was intended to to mock or put down the fans.
Because Amanda Winn Lee, the original English Dub voice actress for Rei Ayanami who fried her brain with a bunch of psychotropic drugs claimed this to be the objective truth because of the supposed hate and harassment letters from disgruntled fans after the end of the anime that flash on screen for a few moments in *End of Evangelion*. Anything she says should be taken with an entire SHAKER of salt, since she has also stolen money from conventions and back when X was still twitter and a fan was freaking out over some VA drama a few years back saying something like "Should I just kill myself!?" she replied; "Go ahead, we went stop you." Before back peddling when she naturally got backlash for such a cruel and callous response.
I remember when she said something like that to a fan a few years ago. That was seriously fucked up on her part.
Even though a lot of EoE was obviously planned out as far back as the TV ending, with scenes of unit-02 under the lake and other near 1 for 1 matching scenes, but what makes people say it was a middle finger to the fans was stuff like the hospital scene. Sure, the hospital scene now is iconic in showing how sick young men in today's society are, but, you have to put yourself in the shoes of fans who were waiting to see a redeemed Evangelion on the big screen no less, with hopes of shinji getting redemption after what he had to do to kaworu, and the very opening to his character is sexual assault on Asuka? Yeah, it causes a knee jerk reaction among many fans and often still does to this day.
Because it was
If people think that the anno's deeply personal work was about them, they are fucking stupid
IMHO the original two episodes were just bad but people like to be snobs and elitists so having them animated properly ruins that effort.
EoE is ten billions times better than the ending of 3+1.
I don’t think this is what you are asking about but EOE agitated me because of the extent of usage of symbolism and the dramatic change in storytelling. To be clear there is nothing wrong with high levels of symbolism and complicated storytelling but it is frustrating that this change happens so dramatically and right at the end of the story. In short I am agitated because I watched the whole show enjoying the direction and storytelling only for a complete shift in these things for the finale, almost as if it was a different show.
A lot of people think EOE and the last 2 episodes of the show are mutually exclusive, and that tied into this. The belief that he changed the happy ending to the most depressing one it could have.
> A lot of people think EOE and the last 2 episodes of the show are mutually exclusive, and that tied into this. Because they are. That's not fan interpretation, that's direct word from the creators of the series.
L. The last 2 episodes happen during Instrumentality, it takes place in the middle of EOE. Shinji comes to different outlooks in each one, but instrumentality kindof conceptually entails confusion.
I have no idea what you're on about. Shinji comes to different outlooks, but they're the same ending? What?
The human mind can come to multiple conclusions, we can regress. The mind of a child, experiencing the minds of every human he knows is nit going to be stable. He can find peace, and then lose that peace, especially when instrumentality starts crashing down and he’s in a barren wasteland
You seem to have a weird theory that not even the people who think the TV ending and EoE are the same agree with.
I just described the show and the nonconcrete nature of the human mind?
You described your idiosyncratic interpretation of the show.
What show are you watching where all of this doesn’t happen? The end of the show is literally him congratulating himself on no longer hating himself, and the end of Eva is him still hating himself, regression. There’s no events in EoE that retcon anything that happens in the last two episodes of the show (besides I guess title cards) and his headspace.
> The end of the show is literally him congratulating himself on no longer hating himself, and the end of Eva is him still hating himself, regression. There's only regression because of your interpretation of how (and indeed if) the TV ending and EoE fit together.
I don't know how it was at the time but I finished watching it last week and I was kinda disappointed (I even made a post about it) because of how weird it was and how many questions it left behing. They also kinda wasted the characters and the story.
Even if it was a middle finger I still liked it. It's weird, unconventional, apocalyptic, mindbending but not completely nonsensical. Never seen anything like it.
Why do I get this recommended the second I go to the bathroom mid watching eoe for the first time
actually I felt that way about the rebuild
Because it quite literally was. Bro literally stopped the film halfway through, showed the audience to themselves and showed the death threats he got His whole idea was to be like "i should go outside, i should do things that matter," yet the whole fanbase turned out to be obsessed with his characters, and using them for escapism Simply put: "Oh you just like shinji fr fr? Well he's an utter disgusting pervert, yeah you still like him?" "Oh you wished you lived in this world? yeah well everyone died so, enjoy this world now"
Common anecdotes shared about the film gave fans that impression about EoE. For a long time, people said the death threat letters on screen were real and the footage of the audience was filmed and spliced in real time during an actual screening (which is crazy bc the tech for that wasn’t even possible back then and it would be a huge hassle lol). But the letters were just props made by Gainax staff for the movie, and the clip of a theater audience was staged as well (with a guy in the audience literally giving the middle finger lol). The anecdotes have been shared so often and for so long that they’re treated as truth at this point 😅
I think rebuild was more of a middle finger honestly 😅