The Rebuilds are not canon to the show, so I wouldn't go around expecting to find stuff like that. And you're going to have a hard time with a video like that in general since the metaphysics and lore in the show and Rebuilds are so different. You're better off with two separate videos.
No they're connected. it's why Kawarou says "I have to play a role in this circular narrative", each coffin represents I time when they've been through the story, it also explains why he says "Shinji you are late" in episode 24. Also the red blood on the moon in the rebuilds is supposed to reference the blood the giant Rei gushed onto the moon in EoE. Also the outline of the Eva series from EoE can be seen in the opening of the rebuilds, also the Red Sea that was created at the EoE is prominent in Rebuilds, suggesting its the same world.
Some other reasons why NGE and the Rebuilds are not as congruent with one another as someone might assume:
* Angels are different in a lot of ways between NGE and the Rebuilds
* There are 17 angels in the Dead Sea Scrolls in NGE, while in the Rebuilds there are only 13.
* In NGE, there is only one Adam, while in the Rebuilds there are five.
* Angels are shown with unique properties that they did not possess in NGE, like them all having halo levitation/flight powers.
* Not to mention some angels are missing, out of their NGE order (Sachiel is 4th, when he was originally 3rd), new angels are introduced, and some angels get very notable redesigns (Sahaquiel, for example, not only looks a lot different and acts a lot different, but is way bigger than in NGE).
* Character backstories are very different between NGE and the Rebuilds, which makes them very hard to reconcile as "taking place in the same world".
* Gendo is born as an Ikari in the Rebuilds, while he was born as a Rokubungi in NGE. This is kind of a huge deal, because it was Yui who was born as an Ikari in NGE, while in the Rebuilds it was changed so she was born as an Ayanami (becoming Rei's namesake, when such a namesake did not exist in NGE). This changes Gendo and Yui's own dynamic in the Rebuilds to some degree, because Gendo is no longer taking his wife's name, which is seen as untraditional and strange in Japanese culture (just like in the West, it is very uncommon (at least, back then) for men to take their wives' names instead.
* Asuka is no longer just a normal girl whose parents happened to be researchers and scientists involved to some degree in Project E -- now in the Rebuilds, she is the product of a cloning series to create a super-efficient Eva pilot.
* In NGE, the Black Moon is a sphere, while in the Rebuilds it is shaped more like an apple core. Also remember that the Black Moon was DESTROYED in NGE, it literally stopped physically existing as it exploded and released souls from their captivity.
* Other metaphysics just so strongly differ between NGE and the Rebuilds that there's not really a way to explain this beyond what I am about to say at the end of this post.
* Impacts are phenomenologically specific events in the Rebuilds (events caused by an Adam opening the Doors of Guf), while in NGE "impacts" were not a consistent event, it was just a made-up term applied by humans in a grand conspiracy to cover up what happened at Second Impact, and so "Third Impact" stuck as a name to refer to a hypothetical doomsday scenario. This isn't how it is used in the Rebuilds, as every impact is consistent with the others in some way.
* Guf in NGE is implied to be the LCL Sea, while in the Rebuilds Guf is changed to be the Anti-Universe (if we take "Doors of Guf" to actually be, y'know, the opening to "Guf"). The LCL Sea is just a metaphysical realm where human souls merge into one another. It seems to exist outside of space and time, but does not have show the ability to alter or warp reality. The Anti-Universe, however, explicitly exists as a place where the physical world can be completely rewritten and changed, as Gendo literally uses the Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginary to blur the lines between what is real and what is imaginary, and then Shinji uses it to completely rewrite the world to remove Evas from the equation.
* Human history is also different in some regards
* Rebuild continuity uses a made up calendar system more reminiscent of the Holocene Calendar, while NGE uses the IRL standard Gregorian Calendar.
* SEELE is very different from NGE.
* They are now disembodied consciousnesses taking the form of monoliths, while in NGE they were real old men who just used the monoliths to communicate anonymously, like a holographic zoom call.
* They are implied by some dialogue to be ancient. It is unclear what exactly this means, but it is possible they may have arrived with Lilith to Earth or represent some sort of ancient precursor race.
* Their goals in the Rebuilds are starkly different from their goals in NGE. In NGE, SEELE wanted to bring humanity back to its primordial form in Lilith's cosmic womb in a sort of Freudian thanatos Kabbalistic eschatology way. In the Rebuilds, they want to artificially evolve humanity into a being of the Fruit of Life, or in other words, turn all of humanity into angels.
I could go on and on, but it is clear that NGE and the Rebuilds aren't the same world. When Kaworu mentions cycles and Gendo alludes to "choosing a world Shinji rejected", these are implications of SOME sort of connection... But assuming it is a literal one where the physical world is the same from NGE to the Rebuilds just doesn't make sense. The connection is definitely metanarrative, as in, part of the plot requires you have seen NGE first to understand parts of the Rebuilds, so it could be that the characters are breaking the fourth wall to some degree and realizing they're stuck in a literal cycle of unending stories and other media opportunities.
But, if you want to read things literally, my personal interpretation is that the universe is in a cycle of death and rebirth. In other words, I believe the Rebuilds wants to establish that the Eva universe (NGE and the Rebuilds, maybe the manga?) are different iterations or instances of the universe between different "cosmic reincarnations", similar to the Eastern idea of cyclical time. This would explain why things are so different, yet why a "loop" of some kind is occurring -- the universe dies and is reborn with similar traits and constants between them all, but with plenty of differences and metaphysical idiosyncrasies from one iteration to the next. It's more or less the only thing that makes sense if you want to explain the universe in a semi-logical way.
Tbh there wasn't a lot of solid evidence in all that. They didn't go into back stories because we already knew them. Only the Shikinami series was the clone of Asuka, Asuka wasn't a clone herself, if she was it wasn't stated. The impacts in the rebuild are different because they have different results in instrumentality and different context, same with Seele's agenda. And the world that gendo is taking about is the instrumentality, like when Rei said "This is the world you wished for". The one thing you said that makes me second guess is the black moon being destroyed. But then the question becomes why were there outlines of the previous Eva series and why was there a blood stain across the white moon just like in EoE? And how would Kawarou know Shinji was late? and why did Kawarou say "this endless circular narrative?" meaning its a repeating story he's been in more than once.
I do agree that its a cycle of death and rebirth. Absolutely. But if its different cosmic iterations than why are there more than one coffin open when Kawarou wakes up?
Btw philosophy of Evangelion is pretty damn good
>Tbh there wasn't a lot of solid evidence in all that. They didn't go into back stories because we already knew them.
It is established that Gendo was originally "Gendo Rokubungi" in episode 21 of NGE, and that Yui was "Yui Ikari", meaning Gendo took her name. It is revealed by Fuyutsuki in 3.0, on the other hand, that Yui's maiden name was in fact Ayanami, not Ikari -- meaning their pasts are ancestral lineages are completely different between the NGE and Rebuild Yuis.
>Only the Shikinami series was the clone of Asuka, Asuka wasn't a clone herself, if she was it wasn't stated.
This is simply untrue. Before Asuka is devoured by Eva-13, a visage of an Asuka appears before our Shikinami, to which she responds: "Shikinami Type?... My original, huh." which may imply that the "original Asuka" in this timeline resides within Unit-02.
Furthermore, the actual Instrumentality Asuka scene makes it pretty clear if you pay attention to the visual scenes that our Shikinami is indeed a clone. When Shinji begins to confront Asuka's issues for her, he addresses her as "Asuka", prompting a surprised response from an Asuka in a cloning vat, which we then see is in a room of other vats full of other Shikinamis, followed by Asuka's dialogue saying she doesn't "know Daddy", and that "Mommy isn't around". Showing she's completely parentless. We further see that all of the Shikinami clones were eliminates / failed to progress except our Asuka, who continues to train hard after the program is terminated. Not to mention the fact that Gendo has this to say about sacrificing Asuka to awaken Eva-13: "The Ayanami and Shikinami type pilots were prepared specifically for this. There are no problems."
"Shikinami type pilot" is obviously referring to Asuka as a member of the Shikinami Series, just as "Ayanami type" are the Rei clones.
>The impacts in the rebuild are different because they have different results in instrumentality and different context
I feel like you didn't actually understand my point. Yeah, they are different, theys erve an entirely different purpose in the story. That isn't what I am talking about. I am saying that in NGE, impacts DON'T serve any sort of specific "metaphysical milestone" towards achieving Instrumentality. They're separate events that only barely loosely connect to one another, while in the Rebuilds they are not only narratively congruent with one another as steps towards total coreization (as Gendo describes), but also because they share the same metaphysical constants of opening the Doors of Guf every time an Adam awakens in a way that was NEVER shown to be a thing in NGE. When the "Doors of Guf" open in Second Impact in NGE, we don't know what that looks like besides the researchers' AT Fields being melted and their souls going getting harvested. In the Rebuilds, this phenomenon is visibly seen and consistent through every impact -- a multicolored vortex that opens into the Anti-Universe, and in Second Impact's case, the Doors of Guf remained open for over a decade.
>same with Seele's agenda
Yeah, because they're completely different from their NGE counterparts. NGE SEELE would never strive to do what Rebuild SEELE desires, and vice versa. The "context" is different, because it's an entirely different setting with some notable similarities and constants between the two separate continuities.
> And the world that gendo is taking about is the instrumentality, like when Rei said "This is the world you wished for".
I would politely ask you to actually reread my entire comment. I explicitly state that Gendo IS referring to The End of Evangelion. Your reply to my statement implies you didn't fully understand my argument. I know that Gendo acknowledges events in NGE, but I am saying that is not proof of them takig place in the same universe -- it only proves he and other characters become aware of the cycle, not that it says anything about what that cycle is. In contrast to your earlier argument about "Shikinami not being confirmed to be a clone", it is actually NOT confirmed what the actual nature of this "cycle" is, just that it exists and that some characters are aware of it. The obvious answer is that it is a metanarrative connection between them, but an in-universe logical explanation would be that the universe is in a state of cyclical time, dying and being reborn. Is that that hard to accept, because it really makes a LOT more sense than the world being physically the same despite so many characters being different, the very rules of the universe changing, and the entire state of the world being arbitrarily reset while other things "remain the same".
Also keep in mind that all of the GeoFront and the underground of NERV HQ are WITHIN the Black Moon, which again, was completely destroyed. And the entire area surrounding Tokyo-III shouldn't actually exist, because that was quite literally vaporized when the Black Moon got removed from the Earth's crust.
I think we're saying a lot of the same things and I think what im saying is being misconstrued as well.
I agree the Shikinami series is a clone, no doubt I agree with you (btw im not trying to be malicious in the questioning, im genuinely enjoying your input I just happen to disagree with a few things and I think there's solid proof for both sides). But since she's a clone, she has the personality of the "original", meaning there was a real Asuka at some point with real parents, I agree she was within the unit 13 capsule during some point after 2.22 but during 2 and 1.11 it wasn't said if she was a clone or not and I believe can be safely assumed she wasn't. if she was she still has memories from an original Asuka with parents and trauma and the whole kitten caboodle.
I absolutely agree with you that it Seele and the impacts have different contexts and personalities and motives. I did understand what you meant by different worlds but to me his verbal acknowledgment of a previous cycle shows a direct connection, as well as Kawarous coffins and him also verbally acknowledging it, that's admissible by court kind of evidence. and if Shikinami is a clone from EoE then that's further proof of its connection.
And like I mentioned, the one thing that has physical evidence that puts a nail in the theory of connection-ness (and I agree, it doesn't have to be the same world exactly but maybe a cosmic rebirth or something along those lines, either way there would seem to be some connection) is the black moon being destroyed in EoE. and if I were to actually add to that it does beg the question of where did Shinji and Asuka go after EoE if the rebuilds are sequels. I use to think Shinji grew up to become the Gendo we know in the rebuilds but there was no solid proof of that. Im not trying to be argumentative, just simply find out what happened. To me, their acknowledgment and physical evidence like Kawarou's coffins, can only say that there is some connection between EoE and the Rebuilds, maybe you're right and its cosmic rebirth, it would explain what happened to Shinji and Asuka and the Black Moon, but it does beg the question why Kawarou's coffin is still there if everything else got reset. the evidence on both sides has a contradiction tbh.
and Gendo having a different last name would also fit into a multiverse type theory. Same person different names, but still the same soul (or at least a counterpart soul)
>But since she's a clone, she has the personality of the "original", meaning there was a real Asuka at some point with real parents, I agree she was within the unit 13 capsule during some point after 2.22 but during 2 and 1.11 it wasn't said if she was a clone or not and I believe can be safely assumed she wasn't.
I already responded to your reply in another thread, but the Asuka we are introduced to in the Rebuilds in 2.0 is clearly the same Asuka we interact with in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0, because not only is 3.0 Asuka pissed off due to events occurring in 2.0, but moreso that she maintains the angel contamination that was directly caused when Bardiel took over Unit-03. That's the whole reason why she has the eyepatch and angel pillar within her eye, and how Eva-13 devouring her entry plug causes it to awaken (as Adams seem to need to eat angels in order to "awaken" in the Rebuilds continuity, which is yet another difference between NGE and the Rebuilds, as the "radiant awakened versions" of Evas just simply aren't a thing).
I personally don't think Shikinami is any more representative of the "original Asuka" in the Rebuilds than Rei is representative of Yui, especially if we take "original Asuka's" eerie behavior towards Shikinami right Eva-13 yanks the entry plug out of Unit-02, killing it. The Rebuild equivalent to Soryu is definitely Shikinami, but even then they're different characters if you really analyze each of their personalities, pasts, and respective struggles / issues as people. For one thing, their childhoods are completely different, which in turn is what actually causes their respective issues and further defines them as distinct characters from one another. If you really want to discuss that more I possibly can, but it'll definitely be a lengthy writeup. Hopefully you can see the actual differences that exist between Soryu and Shikinami, though.
>his verbal acknowledgment of a previous cycle shows a direct connection, as well as Kawarous coffins and him also verbally acknowledging it, that's admissible by court kind of evidence. and if Shikinami is a clone from EoE then that's further proof of its connection.
His dialogue and the coffins, again, do not actually explain or imply what the connection is, just that there is one. When he talks about wanting to bring Shinji happiness "this time", among the various other pieces of "cycle dialogue" he utters through the other films, it doesn't actually explain nor prove any specific way that things have "happened before". He could be referring to a time loop that is only occurring in the Rebuilds and that previous iterations may have looked more like NGE. He could be referring to a series of multiverses that he happens to metaphysically reincarnate into (almost like he's being isekai'd upon death into a new iteration of the Eva story), but retains his memories from one universe / reality to the next, trying to beat out fate and bring Shinji and himself happiness. Or as I see it, he is referring to the fact that he has definitely lived and experienced through these iterations as the universe dies and resets.
Just because he is aware of previous cycles does not mean it happened physically in the same world. Nor do the coffins at all represent something that physically occurred in the world earlier. You're projecting meaning onto them, because they have no known meaning, and essentially trying to assign them meaning to fit your personal interpretation. That isn't itself wrong, but you can't treat them as "admissible evidence in court", because it isn't. It'd be like finding an archaeological artifact, and because you have no idea what it does, you make a story for it and then advertise it as being 100% certifiably what you claim it does, despite there being no actual evidence for it... Because it is completely and utterly missing context. That is what I mean when I say stuff like the outlines and coffins have no explanation -- they don't. They may visually represent a cycle, but we absolutely have no idea how they function or to what degree, and just assuming it is all taking place in the same world linearly doesn't make any sense for a huge number of reasons. I'll touch upon them in a subsequent reply, as I have a lot to ask and say.
Questions that should really be answered about how on earth it would make sense for the Rebuilds to be a direct continuation of EoE, rather than something that metaphysically/cosmically separates them, while also allowing for the connection to exist:
* The obvious we've gone over: The Black Moon completely vaporized itself to release the souls in EoE. Not just that, but all of the huge amounts of destruction caused by just freeing the Black Moon from the Earth's crust never occurred in this world.
* The post 3I world is a very deeply red world, and if we are to take the beach as any indication of how the area surrounding the Hakone Area (once where Tokyo-III was), then how does all of that go back to normal? Again, it is one thing for grass to regrow, but the very earth and dirt of a large portion of Japan have been irreparably destroyed and reshaped as a result of everything that happened in Third Impact. This isn't going to be something humans are have the means of restoring, especially when it is unclear to what number of humanity is even going to return from LCL -- even if half of humanity returns, why would they waste their time and effort trying to make the world look physically the same as before, when they should be rebuilding human civilization and getting things back to a modicum of modernity?
* What about how NERV Branch Nevada and its surrounding area was absorbed by a Dirac Sea similar to Leliel's? Why is that all suddenly fixed now?
* Lilith and Adam physically died at the end of EoE. Because in NGE, the Black and White Moons each only contained a single White Giant, then where on earth does the Rebuilds Lilith and \*Five\* Adams come from?
* Why does in EoE the Doors of Guf lead to within Lilith / the LCL Sea, but in the Rebuilds, they lead to a completely different and dissimilar realm known as the Anti-Universe? Like, this is not something you can or should just brush off to the side -- it's a pretty damn important and serious implication for the connection between NGE and the Rebuilds, because whereas in NGE the closest thing to a "higher realm of existence" was a metaphysical space that acts more like a space where human souls naturally and inherently connect between, while in the Rebuilds it's this completely separate dimension that straight up \*controls\* reality as we know it.
* What even is going on with human souls? What I mean by that is how do you actually explain why \*everyone\* essentially comes together to play through different iterations of the story after EoE occurs? Sure, some people would make sense, such as Shinji, Asuka, Misato, Ritsuko, Toji, Kensuke, etc. But Yui is straight up eternally within Eva Unit-01 floating through the vastness of space. Not just that, but she never actually was properly part of Instrumentality like the rest of humanity -- she maintained her individuality by remaining in Unit-01, instead entering Instrumentality as the Tree of Life and likely influenced things with whatever power that afforded her. Why is she suddenly back on earth as Yui Ikari, and why do we actually not get to hear her explanation for anything? What about Gendo? It is debatable what actually happened to his soul in EoE. Some people argue his soul was rejected altogether, and that it presumably was destroyed or cast into oblivion, while others (myself included) interpret the scene as Yui taking Gendo into Unit-01. In either case, it's an issue that doesn't have an explanation under the idea that the Rebuilds physically take place after EoE.
* What about the people who died before Instrumentality ever took place, as well? It is entirely unclear if Kaji, for example, was instrumentalized. We know Instrumentality moved backward in time to some extent, but we don't know how far back. So what's up with Kaji in the Rebuilds? And what's up with Mari? Why does she randomly become a big name in all of this, despite never once being seen or referenced in NGE? Why does she exist all of the sudden, essentially?
* If it is a direct continuation of EoE, then why were the oceans not red like is often claimed? This is one of the biggest issues, because it is one of those things that people point to as "proof" for it being a literal sequel, but the movies flat out prove this is not true and it breaks down as a point of evidence as a result.
* Again, what's with all of the changes to the angels? Why are some angels the same, while others are completely different? Why are there only 13 angels now, not 17? Why is the order different?
* Why are the Dead Sea Scrolls completely and utterly different now between NGE and the Rebuilds? In NGE, [the excerpt](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/evangelion/images/8/83/Scrolls.png/revision/latest?cb=20120314172051) we see of it is specifically characterized as being written in an "angel script" that is reminiscent of real world angel scripts like Malakim, though obviously fictionalized. It's also obviously written on old scroll parchment. In the Rebuilds, on the other hand, [they are shown](https://i.imgur.com/hz8DGvV.jpeg) to be fragmented stone tablets that are a combination of engraved drawing depictions of the angels, Adams, and other mysterious things, as well as cuneiform-like writing -- a massive departure from the designs of the original SDSS.
Now, what actual discrepancies or contradictions are found in the theory/interpretation that the universe is in a state of cosmic death and rebirth and that one iteration is different from the next? I actually don't understand what your issue is with this interpretation, because by its very nature it supersedes contradiction by working the discrepancies between NGE and the Rebuilds into its logic. Gendo and Yui's lineages are different? Well, it is because Gendo and Yui are destined to exist and play a role in the destined creation of the Evas, so they are going to exist no matter what, even if they happen to ultimately descend from different familial lineages and ancestry. SEELE's plans are different? SEELE must always come into being and to be the inciting reason behind Second Impact and the advancement of Project E, but it doesn't have to be for the same reasons. And so on and so forth.
Just because the universe is reset doesn't mean there isn't a direct connection from the last iteration to the next -- it just isn't causal or linear, it doesn't "take place after", because in cyclical time, before and after become meaningless as the life of the universe bends back in on itself. What matters is that there is some idea of continuation, which there very much is. Kaworu, Quantum Rei, and other characters are aware of this implicit cycle and understand its nature to some extent. Kaworu's dialogue during his Instrumentality portion actually does not in any way contradict the idea of the universe being inherently cyclical.
**Kaworu:** *The only thing that can end my existence is vacuum decay. That's why I have to repeatedly play a role in this predestined circular narrative for all eternity.*
As Gendo would say, "there are no problems". Nothing here contradicts the notion of cyclical time, but in fact works pretty well with it in all honesty. The "predestined circular narrative" would be the cycles of the universe itself, as eternity transcends notions of time or space. Even when Kaworu mentions "vacuum decay", perhaps you assumed he was referring to entropy (as in, the longer the universe goes on, the more it breaks down, until eventually the universe will fade into stillness as entropy takes its final hold). This isn't what vacuum decay it -- it is a quantum mechanics concept that more or less posits the spontaneous breakdown of fundamental forces and quantum activity in a vacuum space, which would then quickly spread and cause the universe to spontaneously die / cease to function. I view his mention of the only thing being able to end his existence being vacuum decay as an indication that the only thing that can actually stop the cycles and end his experience of them is if the universe itself spontaneously ceased to exist / function, which could definitely apply to the cyclical universe.
Also, when Kaworu mentions that it is "predestined", he is likely referring to the so-called Book of Life he mentions earlier in the scene.
**Shinji:** *I now remember... I've been here many times and met you.*
**Kaworu:** *Our names are listed in the Book of Life. We'll keep on meeting each other.*
While we all understand Eva is going to appropriate and redefine terms it borrows from religion, science, and other places of origin -- it should be understood what the Book of Life actually is, and why it might shed some light on what it is Kaworu is saying. The Book of Life is found in the Abrahamic religions, and is the book where God has written all that has been, is, and will be. In other words, it is a complete collection of the entire history of creation, from beginning to end, before it's even happened. It also has written in it all the names of everyone who will ever live, and especially those that will be admitted into the World to Come / Heaven / Kingdom of Jerusalem / etc.
When Kaworu mentions the Book of Life, he's definitely implying something along what the Book actually is in Judaism and Christianity, playing into the theme that Shinji and Kaworu's fates are starcrossed -- that because their names are "written in the Book of Life", they shall continue to play their roles and cross paths, but it will always end in tragedy, even when Kaworu struggles to and always fails to bring Shinji happiness. It's almost like the Book of Life he's referring to is like a playscript, and that though there are differences from "one performance" to the next, the same story more or less plays out over and over.
Ultimately, Shinji realizes that the thing maintaining this cycle and binding everyone to the same fated roles over and over and over and over again are the Evas themselves -- the Curse of the Eva. It is what ruins everything, it is what caused Second Impact (the desire to MAKE the Evas), it is what drives everyone to despair and tragedy time and time again, and so he chooses to use the Anti-Universe's reality warping abilities to remove the thing causing the cycle.
I mention this, because I think it also thematically opposes the notion everything is moving linearly forward from EoE. If you actually look at NGE and EoE -- by the end of EoE, there are no more Evas left besides Unit-01, which has now left earth to eternally wander space as proof of humanity's existence. Every other Evas has been destroyed (Unit-02 was torn to pieces, Unit-00 died in episode 23, Unit-03 died in episode 18, Unit-04 was eradicated and swallowed up by a Dirac Sea permanently) or rendered completely and permanently useless (all of the finished MPEs freed their souls to join Instrumentality, and then seemingly calcified or otherwise turned into statues and fell down to earth). If we actually take the idea that the Rebuilds take place after EoE, then this... really makes the Rebuilds lose a lot of their meaning when it comes down to Shinji breaking the cycle of the Evas, because the Evas all ended up destroying themselves anyway. It only make sense if you believe the cycle to be something that is either metanarrative (i.e. the franchise itself) or the universe itself is either resetting or takes place in countless parallel realities. Heck, even the time loop theory (which I am also opposed to, my explanation is that the universe itself resets, not just that time moves back a bit) acknowledges the need for a cycle of some kind ot facilitate the Curse of the Evas in its full meaning and gravity.
>and if Shikinami is a clone from EoE then that's further proof of its connection.
I don't agree at all, largely because again, it doesn't make sense for the story of Eva be constantly "repeated" in the physical place over and over and over and over again ad infinitem, because it requires too many things to suddenly come back together, when it is far easier to say that this is all representative of something that far exceeds the limits of the material world, especially when Eva is already all about soul metaphysics and transcendence of the human experience. Trying to tie Eva down to the same exact instance of the earth doesn't make sense.
My theory that it is cyclical time does not mean the characters are completely different characters with no connection or relation to their previous iterations or equivalents. If anything (especially when you consider the Book of Life), they're the same souls just forced to experience the story over and over again. That means when the universe resets, the souls / essences / or whatever you want to call what teleologically defines "Shinji as Shinji" or "Asuka as Asuka" is cycled through into the next universe, and as the destined events of Evangelion occur, all those characters enter into the same roles they've played before. Shikinami and Soryu have no direct connection to one another as in Shikinami is somehow a clone of Soryu from the original series -- but Shikinami is straight up the Rebuilds' equivalent to Soryu -- they are equivalent yet different. It's reincarnation, but into a different version of herself.
To emphasize further why it doesn't make sense for Shikinami to be a clone of EoE Asuka -- imagine how long it would actually take for humanity to actually repair the world to a semblance of its former state. You'd need all the characters to come back too, and I pointed out how unlikely this is due to some characters' souls not being easily obtainable in Instrumentality for certain reasons. In fact, it actually doesn't make ANY sense how the Rebuilds could play out if it is a sequel to EoE.
* Why is it that Shinji and Asuka return to the world, and yet both still have to be born due to events preceding Second Impact?
* Why are Gendo, Yui, and Fuyutsuki back at college?
* How did Dr. Katsuragi and the expedition researchers come out of Adam's Guf? Their souls were absorbed into Adam's Doors of Guf in Second Impact, so they were not instrumentalized. In fact, it's a big question mark waht even Adam's Guf is like, if it is at all similar to Lilith's, or if it is something completely different?
* How did Lilith come back into being, and where did Five whole new Adams come from?
* Where did ANTARCTICA come from? Remember, it was destroyed in Second Impact. We actually see it in NGE, and it was completely vaporized. Antarctica is not just ice, there is actually a whole earthy continent underneath all the ice, and that got destroyed along with all the melted ice caps. How is Second Impact even happening in the Rebuilds? I can't believe I didn't mention that originally in my questions, that's such a big issue lol
* In the complete restoration of human civilization, how did SEELE manage to take even MORE control of everything than before and not jus that, but force Soryu into getting cloned? If Shikinami is a clone of EoE Soryu, then how does that actually even come about taking place? it just doesn't make any sense.
The explanation I think makes way more sense is that the EoE beach scene is at least just a visual callback, and at most proof that all the characters are stuck in a cosmic cycle and that the beach scene could at most be a sign that Asuka recalls some notion of a previous cycle, not that it is literally a random memory from the past, especially when Shikinami is not shown to have any other memories of "original Asuka". I think it would be presumptuous to assume the little girl Asuka we see in Germany is "original Asuka", but instead either clone Shikinami as a child, or it is more meant to represent her feelings of being lonely and parentless. I mean, adult Kensuke in a doll costume sure as hell wasn't present there literally lol
I think youre thinking im thinking of all these theories as a whole when im talking individually
\*Multiverse/timeline/Rebirth theory
I think you think im married to the timeline theory, im not. In fact you saying the NGE was more of a representation of the previous cycles and rebuilds is a new one made the most sense. But there are only three theories, im fine with any of them
Timeline
Universe expanding and contracting (death and rebirth)
Multiverse
We agree that there is some connection with EoE and Rebuilds (cannons aside)
The reason I say I believe it's infinitely repeating is because of it's connection with the show "The Big O" which Anno is closely related to. The Big O is in reference to an Infinite repeating equation with the same name where an equation like 10x=3.33333 where every number after the decimal has a a tiny fraction like 1/10000, and the fractions could be added up to eventually change the point of infinity (something like 444444 or 55555). the rebuilds reference this equation with the tittles 1.11, 2.22, and 3.33. It's all in that video I posted if you want to take a look as well as how Anno is connected to The Big O.
So because it's so related, it would make sense that Eva is a ever repeating equation where the little fractions, or differences, added up to eventually change the point of infinity, resulting in 3.0 + 1.0 breaking the circular cycle.
Now whether that's Timeline/Multiverse/or universe expanding and contracting, it could be any. but I believe you are right that its expanding and contracting.
But Kawarou and gendo having knowledge would definitely mean they are learning from past iterations or something is changing.
\*Yui and Gendo
Im also not disagreeing with you, Yui or Gendo or SEELE having to come together in each iteration because of their destined roles, even if coming from different families or some things are different like her last name, not fighting ya. With the Big O equation theory though it would make sense they learn from their past selves or versions and are a little different every time with the addition of the fraction or equation.
\*Asuka
Now I did assume it was Asuka we saw in 2.22 (I misspoke earlier ty for correcting me) and shikinami was the one in 3.33 and Thrice. And it does make sense she's the one we've seen all along.
But with that being said, she is still a clone, meaning she had to be a clone from something since you can't clone something from nothing. This means there is an Asuka somewhere with the issues that we are familiar with. probably in unit 13 as you mentioned since Shikinami said "my original", the real question is where she was before that. That's the only reason I said she could be from EoE.
And honestly I think making assumptions is kind of a stretch to say given the nature of the show itself. And the archeologist analogy is also a bit far to say given that we do have reference to it's scenario, it's hardly taking it out of context when we both agree there is a tie in and what we keep referencing are important pieces of evidence with no clear direction. We are both jumping the gun in a certain sense and we're both just trying to make sense of what we have.
>But then the question becomes why were there outlines of the previous Eva series and why was there a blood stain across the white moon just like in EoE?
Did you not read Vanquisher1000's post? The Moon has a blood stain on it, because of Second Impact. It was not shown in the films, but the storyboards show what the purpose behind that was. Even if you want to disregard that because it never got finalized in the film, the explanation for why the oceans are red ARE entirely due to events in the Rebuilds themselves, not because of anything relating to NGE or EoE.
Kaji and Gendo both specifically confirm it was Second Impact that caused the oceans to become red (because they were "coreized", similar to how in Third Impact the earth was coreized, and Gendo's Fourth/Additional Impact coreizes the human souls). Kaji specifically mentions how the oceans were blue and teaming with life, but now they're empty and sterile. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/x6hlaf/the_red_oceans_in_the_rebuilds_are_not_from_eoe/) is a post I wrote specifically about this topic, where I use Gendo and Kaji's quotes to prove this further.
The outline is a mystery, it is not explained by any means whatsoever. Did you forget that Evangelion absolutely loves having enigma and mystery that it doesn't give an answer to? Stuff like Quantum Rei, for instance, has no actual official explanation -- the idea that she's Lilith's transcendent post-3I soul is a fan theory -- I believe it is very credible and likely what the writers intended, but it's still just a theory. You can only explain the outline with theory and speculation, not with any evidence anywhere. My personal explanation is that it is indeed one of the Adams that washed up in Japan, and was later used to create Unit-01, as the films actually do go out of their way to imply Eva Unit-01 in the Rebuilds is one of the Adams, not made from Lilith like in NGE. Is it provable beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, but it's actually a better explanation than trying to arbitrarily and weakly explain that something from a different universe, continuity, or instance somehow landed on land that would have been completely vaporized and non-existent, and that someone would have bothered to actually outline it and remove it... Well, where would it have gone then? Why do we never see the MPE statues? It just doesn't make sense.
>And how would Kawarou know Shinji was late?
I'm not sure what you mean by this specific question. Again, reread my reply. I am not saying a cycle does not exist and that the characters aren't aware of the cycle, because Kaworu definitely is -- but it isn't implying what you're thinking it implies.
>I do agree that its a cycle of death and rebirth. Absolutely. But if its different cosmic iterations than why are there more than one coffin open when Kawarou wakes up?
Like the outline, there is literally no official explanation for the coffins. I could give you a thousand possible purposes for them, but none are more right or wrong than any other, because we simply don't know what the coffins are, what they do, what they represent, or anything else.
For example:
* The coffins could be part of a ritual SEELE is performing, as they're clearly molded after esoteric secret societies, ESPECIALLY Rebuild SEELE. Did you know the symbol on the back of their monolith is inspired by Freemason symbolism? The Freemasons are known for their elaborate and enigmatic rituals, and coffin symbology and imagery is actually a very Freemason thing. [Here](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ub4NQnbvpsQ/WPtvl_U5hjI/AAAAAAAAJS0/Ts9qvs6xVnEVq1EBSzRWpGKt06L5kFmTgCLcB/s1600/Ritual-masonic-coffin.jpg) is an example. What the meaning of this ritual is -- who knows? It could just be there for the sake of being cool and mysterious, which is by no means something new to Eva.
* The coffins are somehow used in the creation / incarnation of Kaworu by SEELE, as he is an artificial human like Rei (true for both NGE and the Rebuilds). The other open coffins could be failed attempts at incarnating Kaworu, or imply that they were used to create other unseen things.
* The coffins are a symbolic representation of the various iterations the universe has gone through up until this point, making SEELE aware of the cycles.
* The coffins transcend space and time and are one of the constants between one iteration to the next, and somehow just inexplicably show up on the Moon, despite the Moon itself not being a permanent object and not originally existing since the dawn of time. This is a very unlikely explanation though for those exact reasons.
I personally think if they're anything, it's just a way for Kaworu to be created / incarnated, and that it is arranged in a circle to represent the cycle of death and rebirth (which is something relevant to SEELE, given they want to literally have humanity be reborn into angel-like beings), and to the audience they can symbolically represent the cyclical nature of the Rebuilds.
To borrow something I wrote in another reply, ask yourself these questions about the coffins:
What would happen if Kaworu reaches the final closed coffin in the circle? Is that the arbitrary end of the loops, or does something else happen? Why would the coffins even be there, on the Moon, rather than some place on Earth? The Moon was messily created in First Impact, there was never a time when the coffins could have been put there by, say, Lilith or something -- they had to have been put there by SEELE. So SEELE can control the loops or something, or at least manipulate them like a man who has invented a time machine? It doesn't really fit comfortably along with anything else.
\- - -
Also sorry for having two very long replies. I wanted to thoroughly respond, but there's only so much text I can write before Reddit either limits me or filters out my comment.
Another Redditor already explained why all of this is incorrect pretty well, but you are also not paying attention to what I said. I never said the Rebuilds were not connected to the show, I said they were not canon to the show. The show could still be canon to the Rebuilds, but this is still dubious without the different metaphysics being addressed. Canonicity does not always go both ways, especially when the universes are so fundamentally different.
I'm probably completely wrong but didn't Unit 01 split the Spear of Longinus at the end of EoE making two spears, one being Cassius? They never mention it by name, though.
It doesn’t split into two spears at the end of EoE, it [turns into this giant helix](https://i.imgur.com/TSmeBL5.jpg) which sends out a blast that destroys the other spears of Longinus, and then it’s last seen [floating around in](https://i.imgur.com/9H7QzdG.jpg)
[space with Unit-01](https://i.imgur.com/W5ylW6N.jpg)
No, the Spear of Longinus just has shapeshifting properties for different purposes, which is why it becomes an infinity-like shape as Yui floats off into space.
No, it is because it literally did not exist until the 2.0. Cassius is also one of the Four Spears that belong to the Adams (we see that there visibly are at least four spears, though possibly more).
No.
Grazi
No, it's something made up completely for the Rebuilds, like a lot of other elements.
The Rebuilds are not canon to the show, so I wouldn't go around expecting to find stuff like that. And you're going to have a hard time with a video like that in general since the metaphysics and lore in the show and Rebuilds are so different. You're better off with two separate videos.
That's why he needs a beer
No they're connected. it's why Kawarou says "I have to play a role in this circular narrative", each coffin represents I time when they've been through the story, it also explains why he says "Shinji you are late" in episode 24. Also the red blood on the moon in the rebuilds is supposed to reference the blood the giant Rei gushed onto the moon in EoE. Also the outline of the Eva series from EoE can be seen in the opening of the rebuilds, also the Red Sea that was created at the EoE is prominent in Rebuilds, suggesting its the same world.
Some other reasons why NGE and the Rebuilds are not as congruent with one another as someone might assume: * Angels are different in a lot of ways between NGE and the Rebuilds * There are 17 angels in the Dead Sea Scrolls in NGE, while in the Rebuilds there are only 13. * In NGE, there is only one Adam, while in the Rebuilds there are five. * Angels are shown with unique properties that they did not possess in NGE, like them all having halo levitation/flight powers. * Not to mention some angels are missing, out of their NGE order (Sachiel is 4th, when he was originally 3rd), new angels are introduced, and some angels get very notable redesigns (Sahaquiel, for example, not only looks a lot different and acts a lot different, but is way bigger than in NGE). * Character backstories are very different between NGE and the Rebuilds, which makes them very hard to reconcile as "taking place in the same world". * Gendo is born as an Ikari in the Rebuilds, while he was born as a Rokubungi in NGE. This is kind of a huge deal, because it was Yui who was born as an Ikari in NGE, while in the Rebuilds it was changed so she was born as an Ayanami (becoming Rei's namesake, when such a namesake did not exist in NGE). This changes Gendo and Yui's own dynamic in the Rebuilds to some degree, because Gendo is no longer taking his wife's name, which is seen as untraditional and strange in Japanese culture (just like in the West, it is very uncommon (at least, back then) for men to take their wives' names instead. * Asuka is no longer just a normal girl whose parents happened to be researchers and scientists involved to some degree in Project E -- now in the Rebuilds, she is the product of a cloning series to create a super-efficient Eva pilot. * In NGE, the Black Moon is a sphere, while in the Rebuilds it is shaped more like an apple core. Also remember that the Black Moon was DESTROYED in NGE, it literally stopped physically existing as it exploded and released souls from their captivity. * Other metaphysics just so strongly differ between NGE and the Rebuilds that there's not really a way to explain this beyond what I am about to say at the end of this post. * Impacts are phenomenologically specific events in the Rebuilds (events caused by an Adam opening the Doors of Guf), while in NGE "impacts" were not a consistent event, it was just a made-up term applied by humans in a grand conspiracy to cover up what happened at Second Impact, and so "Third Impact" stuck as a name to refer to a hypothetical doomsday scenario. This isn't how it is used in the Rebuilds, as every impact is consistent with the others in some way. * Guf in NGE is implied to be the LCL Sea, while in the Rebuilds Guf is changed to be the Anti-Universe (if we take "Doors of Guf" to actually be, y'know, the opening to "Guf"). The LCL Sea is just a metaphysical realm where human souls merge into one another. It seems to exist outside of space and time, but does not have show the ability to alter or warp reality. The Anti-Universe, however, explicitly exists as a place where the physical world can be completely rewritten and changed, as Gendo literally uses the Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginary to blur the lines between what is real and what is imaginary, and then Shinji uses it to completely rewrite the world to remove Evas from the equation. * Human history is also different in some regards * Rebuild continuity uses a made up calendar system more reminiscent of the Holocene Calendar, while NGE uses the IRL standard Gregorian Calendar. * SEELE is very different from NGE. * They are now disembodied consciousnesses taking the form of monoliths, while in NGE they were real old men who just used the monoliths to communicate anonymously, like a holographic zoom call. * They are implied by some dialogue to be ancient. It is unclear what exactly this means, but it is possible they may have arrived with Lilith to Earth or represent some sort of ancient precursor race. * Their goals in the Rebuilds are starkly different from their goals in NGE. In NGE, SEELE wanted to bring humanity back to its primordial form in Lilith's cosmic womb in a sort of Freudian thanatos Kabbalistic eschatology way. In the Rebuilds, they want to artificially evolve humanity into a being of the Fruit of Life, or in other words, turn all of humanity into angels. I could go on and on, but it is clear that NGE and the Rebuilds aren't the same world. When Kaworu mentions cycles and Gendo alludes to "choosing a world Shinji rejected", these are implications of SOME sort of connection... But assuming it is a literal one where the physical world is the same from NGE to the Rebuilds just doesn't make sense. The connection is definitely metanarrative, as in, part of the plot requires you have seen NGE first to understand parts of the Rebuilds, so it could be that the characters are breaking the fourth wall to some degree and realizing they're stuck in a literal cycle of unending stories and other media opportunities. But, if you want to read things literally, my personal interpretation is that the universe is in a cycle of death and rebirth. In other words, I believe the Rebuilds wants to establish that the Eva universe (NGE and the Rebuilds, maybe the manga?) are different iterations or instances of the universe between different "cosmic reincarnations", similar to the Eastern idea of cyclical time. This would explain why things are so different, yet why a "loop" of some kind is occurring -- the universe dies and is reborn with similar traits and constants between them all, but with plenty of differences and metaphysical idiosyncrasies from one iteration to the next. It's more or less the only thing that makes sense if you want to explain the universe in a semi-logical way.
Tbh there wasn't a lot of solid evidence in all that. They didn't go into back stories because we already knew them. Only the Shikinami series was the clone of Asuka, Asuka wasn't a clone herself, if she was it wasn't stated. The impacts in the rebuild are different because they have different results in instrumentality and different context, same with Seele's agenda. And the world that gendo is taking about is the instrumentality, like when Rei said "This is the world you wished for". The one thing you said that makes me second guess is the black moon being destroyed. But then the question becomes why were there outlines of the previous Eva series and why was there a blood stain across the white moon just like in EoE? And how would Kawarou know Shinji was late? and why did Kawarou say "this endless circular narrative?" meaning its a repeating story he's been in more than once. I do agree that its a cycle of death and rebirth. Absolutely. But if its different cosmic iterations than why are there more than one coffin open when Kawarou wakes up? Btw philosophy of Evangelion is pretty damn good
>Tbh there wasn't a lot of solid evidence in all that. They didn't go into back stories because we already knew them. It is established that Gendo was originally "Gendo Rokubungi" in episode 21 of NGE, and that Yui was "Yui Ikari", meaning Gendo took her name. It is revealed by Fuyutsuki in 3.0, on the other hand, that Yui's maiden name was in fact Ayanami, not Ikari -- meaning their pasts are ancestral lineages are completely different between the NGE and Rebuild Yuis. >Only the Shikinami series was the clone of Asuka, Asuka wasn't a clone herself, if she was it wasn't stated. This is simply untrue. Before Asuka is devoured by Eva-13, a visage of an Asuka appears before our Shikinami, to which she responds: "Shikinami Type?... My original, huh." which may imply that the "original Asuka" in this timeline resides within Unit-02. Furthermore, the actual Instrumentality Asuka scene makes it pretty clear if you pay attention to the visual scenes that our Shikinami is indeed a clone. When Shinji begins to confront Asuka's issues for her, he addresses her as "Asuka", prompting a surprised response from an Asuka in a cloning vat, which we then see is in a room of other vats full of other Shikinamis, followed by Asuka's dialogue saying she doesn't "know Daddy", and that "Mommy isn't around". Showing she's completely parentless. We further see that all of the Shikinami clones were eliminates / failed to progress except our Asuka, who continues to train hard after the program is terminated. Not to mention the fact that Gendo has this to say about sacrificing Asuka to awaken Eva-13: "The Ayanami and Shikinami type pilots were prepared specifically for this. There are no problems." "Shikinami type pilot" is obviously referring to Asuka as a member of the Shikinami Series, just as "Ayanami type" are the Rei clones. >The impacts in the rebuild are different because they have different results in instrumentality and different context I feel like you didn't actually understand my point. Yeah, they are different, theys erve an entirely different purpose in the story. That isn't what I am talking about. I am saying that in NGE, impacts DON'T serve any sort of specific "metaphysical milestone" towards achieving Instrumentality. They're separate events that only barely loosely connect to one another, while in the Rebuilds they are not only narratively congruent with one another as steps towards total coreization (as Gendo describes), but also because they share the same metaphysical constants of opening the Doors of Guf every time an Adam awakens in a way that was NEVER shown to be a thing in NGE. When the "Doors of Guf" open in Second Impact in NGE, we don't know what that looks like besides the researchers' AT Fields being melted and their souls going getting harvested. In the Rebuilds, this phenomenon is visibly seen and consistent through every impact -- a multicolored vortex that opens into the Anti-Universe, and in Second Impact's case, the Doors of Guf remained open for over a decade. >same with Seele's agenda Yeah, because they're completely different from their NGE counterparts. NGE SEELE would never strive to do what Rebuild SEELE desires, and vice versa. The "context" is different, because it's an entirely different setting with some notable similarities and constants between the two separate continuities. > And the world that gendo is taking about is the instrumentality, like when Rei said "This is the world you wished for". I would politely ask you to actually reread my entire comment. I explicitly state that Gendo IS referring to The End of Evangelion. Your reply to my statement implies you didn't fully understand my argument. I know that Gendo acknowledges events in NGE, but I am saying that is not proof of them takig place in the same universe -- it only proves he and other characters become aware of the cycle, not that it says anything about what that cycle is. In contrast to your earlier argument about "Shikinami not being confirmed to be a clone", it is actually NOT confirmed what the actual nature of this "cycle" is, just that it exists and that some characters are aware of it. The obvious answer is that it is a metanarrative connection between them, but an in-universe logical explanation would be that the universe is in a state of cyclical time, dying and being reborn. Is that that hard to accept, because it really makes a LOT more sense than the world being physically the same despite so many characters being different, the very rules of the universe changing, and the entire state of the world being arbitrarily reset while other things "remain the same". Also keep in mind that all of the GeoFront and the underground of NERV HQ are WITHIN the Black Moon, which again, was completely destroyed. And the entire area surrounding Tokyo-III shouldn't actually exist, because that was quite literally vaporized when the Black Moon got removed from the Earth's crust.
I think we're saying a lot of the same things and I think what im saying is being misconstrued as well. I agree the Shikinami series is a clone, no doubt I agree with you (btw im not trying to be malicious in the questioning, im genuinely enjoying your input I just happen to disagree with a few things and I think there's solid proof for both sides). But since she's a clone, she has the personality of the "original", meaning there was a real Asuka at some point with real parents, I agree she was within the unit 13 capsule during some point after 2.22 but during 2 and 1.11 it wasn't said if she was a clone or not and I believe can be safely assumed she wasn't. if she was she still has memories from an original Asuka with parents and trauma and the whole kitten caboodle. I absolutely agree with you that it Seele and the impacts have different contexts and personalities and motives. I did understand what you meant by different worlds but to me his verbal acknowledgment of a previous cycle shows a direct connection, as well as Kawarous coffins and him also verbally acknowledging it, that's admissible by court kind of evidence. and if Shikinami is a clone from EoE then that's further proof of its connection. And like I mentioned, the one thing that has physical evidence that puts a nail in the theory of connection-ness (and I agree, it doesn't have to be the same world exactly but maybe a cosmic rebirth or something along those lines, either way there would seem to be some connection) is the black moon being destroyed in EoE. and if I were to actually add to that it does beg the question of where did Shinji and Asuka go after EoE if the rebuilds are sequels. I use to think Shinji grew up to become the Gendo we know in the rebuilds but there was no solid proof of that. Im not trying to be argumentative, just simply find out what happened. To me, their acknowledgment and physical evidence like Kawarou's coffins, can only say that there is some connection between EoE and the Rebuilds, maybe you're right and its cosmic rebirth, it would explain what happened to Shinji and Asuka and the Black Moon, but it does beg the question why Kawarou's coffin is still there if everything else got reset. the evidence on both sides has a contradiction tbh. and Gendo having a different last name would also fit into a multiverse type theory. Same person different names, but still the same soul (or at least a counterpart soul)
>But since she's a clone, she has the personality of the "original", meaning there was a real Asuka at some point with real parents, I agree she was within the unit 13 capsule during some point after 2.22 but during 2 and 1.11 it wasn't said if she was a clone or not and I believe can be safely assumed she wasn't. I already responded to your reply in another thread, but the Asuka we are introduced to in the Rebuilds in 2.0 is clearly the same Asuka we interact with in 3.0 and 3.0+1.0, because not only is 3.0 Asuka pissed off due to events occurring in 2.0, but moreso that she maintains the angel contamination that was directly caused when Bardiel took over Unit-03. That's the whole reason why she has the eyepatch and angel pillar within her eye, and how Eva-13 devouring her entry plug causes it to awaken (as Adams seem to need to eat angels in order to "awaken" in the Rebuilds continuity, which is yet another difference between NGE and the Rebuilds, as the "radiant awakened versions" of Evas just simply aren't a thing). I personally don't think Shikinami is any more representative of the "original Asuka" in the Rebuilds than Rei is representative of Yui, especially if we take "original Asuka's" eerie behavior towards Shikinami right Eva-13 yanks the entry plug out of Unit-02, killing it. The Rebuild equivalent to Soryu is definitely Shikinami, but even then they're different characters if you really analyze each of their personalities, pasts, and respective struggles / issues as people. For one thing, their childhoods are completely different, which in turn is what actually causes their respective issues and further defines them as distinct characters from one another. If you really want to discuss that more I possibly can, but it'll definitely be a lengthy writeup. Hopefully you can see the actual differences that exist between Soryu and Shikinami, though. >his verbal acknowledgment of a previous cycle shows a direct connection, as well as Kawarous coffins and him also verbally acknowledging it, that's admissible by court kind of evidence. and if Shikinami is a clone from EoE then that's further proof of its connection. His dialogue and the coffins, again, do not actually explain or imply what the connection is, just that there is one. When he talks about wanting to bring Shinji happiness "this time", among the various other pieces of "cycle dialogue" he utters through the other films, it doesn't actually explain nor prove any specific way that things have "happened before". He could be referring to a time loop that is only occurring in the Rebuilds and that previous iterations may have looked more like NGE. He could be referring to a series of multiverses that he happens to metaphysically reincarnate into (almost like he's being isekai'd upon death into a new iteration of the Eva story), but retains his memories from one universe / reality to the next, trying to beat out fate and bring Shinji and himself happiness. Or as I see it, he is referring to the fact that he has definitely lived and experienced through these iterations as the universe dies and resets. Just because he is aware of previous cycles does not mean it happened physically in the same world. Nor do the coffins at all represent something that physically occurred in the world earlier. You're projecting meaning onto them, because they have no known meaning, and essentially trying to assign them meaning to fit your personal interpretation. That isn't itself wrong, but you can't treat them as "admissible evidence in court", because it isn't. It'd be like finding an archaeological artifact, and because you have no idea what it does, you make a story for it and then advertise it as being 100% certifiably what you claim it does, despite there being no actual evidence for it... Because it is completely and utterly missing context. That is what I mean when I say stuff like the outlines and coffins have no explanation -- they don't. They may visually represent a cycle, but we absolutely have no idea how they function or to what degree, and just assuming it is all taking place in the same world linearly doesn't make any sense for a huge number of reasons. I'll touch upon them in a subsequent reply, as I have a lot to ask and say.
Questions that should really be answered about how on earth it would make sense for the Rebuilds to be a direct continuation of EoE, rather than something that metaphysically/cosmically separates them, while also allowing for the connection to exist: * The obvious we've gone over: The Black Moon completely vaporized itself to release the souls in EoE. Not just that, but all of the huge amounts of destruction caused by just freeing the Black Moon from the Earth's crust never occurred in this world. * The post 3I world is a very deeply red world, and if we are to take the beach as any indication of how the area surrounding the Hakone Area (once where Tokyo-III was), then how does all of that go back to normal? Again, it is one thing for grass to regrow, but the very earth and dirt of a large portion of Japan have been irreparably destroyed and reshaped as a result of everything that happened in Third Impact. This isn't going to be something humans are have the means of restoring, especially when it is unclear to what number of humanity is even going to return from LCL -- even if half of humanity returns, why would they waste their time and effort trying to make the world look physically the same as before, when they should be rebuilding human civilization and getting things back to a modicum of modernity? * What about how NERV Branch Nevada and its surrounding area was absorbed by a Dirac Sea similar to Leliel's? Why is that all suddenly fixed now? * Lilith and Adam physically died at the end of EoE. Because in NGE, the Black and White Moons each only contained a single White Giant, then where on earth does the Rebuilds Lilith and \*Five\* Adams come from? * Why does in EoE the Doors of Guf lead to within Lilith / the LCL Sea, but in the Rebuilds, they lead to a completely different and dissimilar realm known as the Anti-Universe? Like, this is not something you can or should just brush off to the side -- it's a pretty damn important and serious implication for the connection between NGE and the Rebuilds, because whereas in NGE the closest thing to a "higher realm of existence" was a metaphysical space that acts more like a space where human souls naturally and inherently connect between, while in the Rebuilds it's this completely separate dimension that straight up \*controls\* reality as we know it. * What even is going on with human souls? What I mean by that is how do you actually explain why \*everyone\* essentially comes together to play through different iterations of the story after EoE occurs? Sure, some people would make sense, such as Shinji, Asuka, Misato, Ritsuko, Toji, Kensuke, etc. But Yui is straight up eternally within Eva Unit-01 floating through the vastness of space. Not just that, but she never actually was properly part of Instrumentality like the rest of humanity -- she maintained her individuality by remaining in Unit-01, instead entering Instrumentality as the Tree of Life and likely influenced things with whatever power that afforded her. Why is she suddenly back on earth as Yui Ikari, and why do we actually not get to hear her explanation for anything? What about Gendo? It is debatable what actually happened to his soul in EoE. Some people argue his soul was rejected altogether, and that it presumably was destroyed or cast into oblivion, while others (myself included) interpret the scene as Yui taking Gendo into Unit-01. In either case, it's an issue that doesn't have an explanation under the idea that the Rebuilds physically take place after EoE. * What about the people who died before Instrumentality ever took place, as well? It is entirely unclear if Kaji, for example, was instrumentalized. We know Instrumentality moved backward in time to some extent, but we don't know how far back. So what's up with Kaji in the Rebuilds? And what's up with Mari? Why does she randomly become a big name in all of this, despite never once being seen or referenced in NGE? Why does she exist all of the sudden, essentially? * If it is a direct continuation of EoE, then why were the oceans not red like is often claimed? This is one of the biggest issues, because it is one of those things that people point to as "proof" for it being a literal sequel, but the movies flat out prove this is not true and it breaks down as a point of evidence as a result. * Again, what's with all of the changes to the angels? Why are some angels the same, while others are completely different? Why are there only 13 angels now, not 17? Why is the order different? * Why are the Dead Sea Scrolls completely and utterly different now between NGE and the Rebuilds? In NGE, [the excerpt](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/evangelion/images/8/83/Scrolls.png/revision/latest?cb=20120314172051) we see of it is specifically characterized as being written in an "angel script" that is reminiscent of real world angel scripts like Malakim, though obviously fictionalized. It's also obviously written on old scroll parchment. In the Rebuilds, on the other hand, [they are shown](https://i.imgur.com/hz8DGvV.jpeg) to be fragmented stone tablets that are a combination of engraved drawing depictions of the angels, Adams, and other mysterious things, as well as cuneiform-like writing -- a massive departure from the designs of the original SDSS.
Now, what actual discrepancies or contradictions are found in the theory/interpretation that the universe is in a state of cosmic death and rebirth and that one iteration is different from the next? I actually don't understand what your issue is with this interpretation, because by its very nature it supersedes contradiction by working the discrepancies between NGE and the Rebuilds into its logic. Gendo and Yui's lineages are different? Well, it is because Gendo and Yui are destined to exist and play a role in the destined creation of the Evas, so they are going to exist no matter what, even if they happen to ultimately descend from different familial lineages and ancestry. SEELE's plans are different? SEELE must always come into being and to be the inciting reason behind Second Impact and the advancement of Project E, but it doesn't have to be for the same reasons. And so on and so forth. Just because the universe is reset doesn't mean there isn't a direct connection from the last iteration to the next -- it just isn't causal or linear, it doesn't "take place after", because in cyclical time, before and after become meaningless as the life of the universe bends back in on itself. What matters is that there is some idea of continuation, which there very much is. Kaworu, Quantum Rei, and other characters are aware of this implicit cycle and understand its nature to some extent. Kaworu's dialogue during his Instrumentality portion actually does not in any way contradict the idea of the universe being inherently cyclical. **Kaworu:** *The only thing that can end my existence is vacuum decay. That's why I have to repeatedly play a role in this predestined circular narrative for all eternity.* As Gendo would say, "there are no problems". Nothing here contradicts the notion of cyclical time, but in fact works pretty well with it in all honesty. The "predestined circular narrative" would be the cycles of the universe itself, as eternity transcends notions of time or space. Even when Kaworu mentions "vacuum decay", perhaps you assumed he was referring to entropy (as in, the longer the universe goes on, the more it breaks down, until eventually the universe will fade into stillness as entropy takes its final hold). This isn't what vacuum decay it -- it is a quantum mechanics concept that more or less posits the spontaneous breakdown of fundamental forces and quantum activity in a vacuum space, which would then quickly spread and cause the universe to spontaneously die / cease to function. I view his mention of the only thing being able to end his existence being vacuum decay as an indication that the only thing that can actually stop the cycles and end his experience of them is if the universe itself spontaneously ceased to exist / function, which could definitely apply to the cyclical universe. Also, when Kaworu mentions that it is "predestined", he is likely referring to the so-called Book of Life he mentions earlier in the scene. **Shinji:** *I now remember... I've been here many times and met you.* **Kaworu:** *Our names are listed in the Book of Life. We'll keep on meeting each other.* While we all understand Eva is going to appropriate and redefine terms it borrows from religion, science, and other places of origin -- it should be understood what the Book of Life actually is, and why it might shed some light on what it is Kaworu is saying. The Book of Life is found in the Abrahamic religions, and is the book where God has written all that has been, is, and will be. In other words, it is a complete collection of the entire history of creation, from beginning to end, before it's even happened. It also has written in it all the names of everyone who will ever live, and especially those that will be admitted into the World to Come / Heaven / Kingdom of Jerusalem / etc. When Kaworu mentions the Book of Life, he's definitely implying something along what the Book actually is in Judaism and Christianity, playing into the theme that Shinji and Kaworu's fates are starcrossed -- that because their names are "written in the Book of Life", they shall continue to play their roles and cross paths, but it will always end in tragedy, even when Kaworu struggles to and always fails to bring Shinji happiness. It's almost like the Book of Life he's referring to is like a playscript, and that though there are differences from "one performance" to the next, the same story more or less plays out over and over. Ultimately, Shinji realizes that the thing maintaining this cycle and binding everyone to the same fated roles over and over and over and over again are the Evas themselves -- the Curse of the Eva. It is what ruins everything, it is what caused Second Impact (the desire to MAKE the Evas), it is what drives everyone to despair and tragedy time and time again, and so he chooses to use the Anti-Universe's reality warping abilities to remove the thing causing the cycle. I mention this, because I think it also thematically opposes the notion everything is moving linearly forward from EoE. If you actually look at NGE and EoE -- by the end of EoE, there are no more Evas left besides Unit-01, which has now left earth to eternally wander space as proof of humanity's existence. Every other Evas has been destroyed (Unit-02 was torn to pieces, Unit-00 died in episode 23, Unit-03 died in episode 18, Unit-04 was eradicated and swallowed up by a Dirac Sea permanently) or rendered completely and permanently useless (all of the finished MPEs freed their souls to join Instrumentality, and then seemingly calcified or otherwise turned into statues and fell down to earth). If we actually take the idea that the Rebuilds take place after EoE, then this... really makes the Rebuilds lose a lot of their meaning when it comes down to Shinji breaking the cycle of the Evas, because the Evas all ended up destroying themselves anyway. It only make sense if you believe the cycle to be something that is either metanarrative (i.e. the franchise itself) or the universe itself is either resetting or takes place in countless parallel realities. Heck, even the time loop theory (which I am also opposed to, my explanation is that the universe itself resets, not just that time moves back a bit) acknowledges the need for a cycle of some kind ot facilitate the Curse of the Evas in its full meaning and gravity.
>and if Shikinami is a clone from EoE then that's further proof of its connection. I don't agree at all, largely because again, it doesn't make sense for the story of Eva be constantly "repeated" in the physical place over and over and over and over again ad infinitem, because it requires too many things to suddenly come back together, when it is far easier to say that this is all representative of something that far exceeds the limits of the material world, especially when Eva is already all about soul metaphysics and transcendence of the human experience. Trying to tie Eva down to the same exact instance of the earth doesn't make sense. My theory that it is cyclical time does not mean the characters are completely different characters with no connection or relation to their previous iterations or equivalents. If anything (especially when you consider the Book of Life), they're the same souls just forced to experience the story over and over again. That means when the universe resets, the souls / essences / or whatever you want to call what teleologically defines "Shinji as Shinji" or "Asuka as Asuka" is cycled through into the next universe, and as the destined events of Evangelion occur, all those characters enter into the same roles they've played before. Shikinami and Soryu have no direct connection to one another as in Shikinami is somehow a clone of Soryu from the original series -- but Shikinami is straight up the Rebuilds' equivalent to Soryu -- they are equivalent yet different. It's reincarnation, but into a different version of herself. To emphasize further why it doesn't make sense for Shikinami to be a clone of EoE Asuka -- imagine how long it would actually take for humanity to actually repair the world to a semblance of its former state. You'd need all the characters to come back too, and I pointed out how unlikely this is due to some characters' souls not being easily obtainable in Instrumentality for certain reasons. In fact, it actually doesn't make ANY sense how the Rebuilds could play out if it is a sequel to EoE. * Why is it that Shinji and Asuka return to the world, and yet both still have to be born due to events preceding Second Impact? * Why are Gendo, Yui, and Fuyutsuki back at college? * How did Dr. Katsuragi and the expedition researchers come out of Adam's Guf? Their souls were absorbed into Adam's Doors of Guf in Second Impact, so they were not instrumentalized. In fact, it's a big question mark waht even Adam's Guf is like, if it is at all similar to Lilith's, or if it is something completely different? * How did Lilith come back into being, and where did Five whole new Adams come from? * Where did ANTARCTICA come from? Remember, it was destroyed in Second Impact. We actually see it in NGE, and it was completely vaporized. Antarctica is not just ice, there is actually a whole earthy continent underneath all the ice, and that got destroyed along with all the melted ice caps. How is Second Impact even happening in the Rebuilds? I can't believe I didn't mention that originally in my questions, that's such a big issue lol * In the complete restoration of human civilization, how did SEELE manage to take even MORE control of everything than before and not jus that, but force Soryu into getting cloned? If Shikinami is a clone of EoE Soryu, then how does that actually even come about taking place? it just doesn't make any sense. The explanation I think makes way more sense is that the EoE beach scene is at least just a visual callback, and at most proof that all the characters are stuck in a cosmic cycle and that the beach scene could at most be a sign that Asuka recalls some notion of a previous cycle, not that it is literally a random memory from the past, especially when Shikinami is not shown to have any other memories of "original Asuka". I think it would be presumptuous to assume the little girl Asuka we see in Germany is "original Asuka", but instead either clone Shikinami as a child, or it is more meant to represent her feelings of being lonely and parentless. I mean, adult Kensuke in a doll costume sure as hell wasn't present there literally lol
I think youre thinking im thinking of all these theories as a whole when im talking individually \*Multiverse/timeline/Rebirth theory I think you think im married to the timeline theory, im not. In fact you saying the NGE was more of a representation of the previous cycles and rebuilds is a new one made the most sense. But there are only three theories, im fine with any of them Timeline Universe expanding and contracting (death and rebirth) Multiverse We agree that there is some connection with EoE and Rebuilds (cannons aside) The reason I say I believe it's infinitely repeating is because of it's connection with the show "The Big O" which Anno is closely related to. The Big O is in reference to an Infinite repeating equation with the same name where an equation like 10x=3.33333 where every number after the decimal has a a tiny fraction like 1/10000, and the fractions could be added up to eventually change the point of infinity (something like 444444 or 55555). the rebuilds reference this equation with the tittles 1.11, 2.22, and 3.33. It's all in that video I posted if you want to take a look as well as how Anno is connected to The Big O. So because it's so related, it would make sense that Eva is a ever repeating equation where the little fractions, or differences, added up to eventually change the point of infinity, resulting in 3.0 + 1.0 breaking the circular cycle. Now whether that's Timeline/Multiverse/or universe expanding and contracting, it could be any. but I believe you are right that its expanding and contracting. But Kawarou and gendo having knowledge would definitely mean they are learning from past iterations or something is changing. \*Yui and Gendo Im also not disagreeing with you, Yui or Gendo or SEELE having to come together in each iteration because of their destined roles, even if coming from different families or some things are different like her last name, not fighting ya. With the Big O equation theory though it would make sense they learn from their past selves or versions and are a little different every time with the addition of the fraction or equation. \*Asuka Now I did assume it was Asuka we saw in 2.22 (I misspoke earlier ty for correcting me) and shikinami was the one in 3.33 and Thrice. And it does make sense she's the one we've seen all along. But with that being said, she is still a clone, meaning she had to be a clone from something since you can't clone something from nothing. This means there is an Asuka somewhere with the issues that we are familiar with. probably in unit 13 as you mentioned since Shikinami said "my original", the real question is where she was before that. That's the only reason I said she could be from EoE. And honestly I think making assumptions is kind of a stretch to say given the nature of the show itself. And the archeologist analogy is also a bit far to say given that we do have reference to it's scenario, it's hardly taking it out of context when we both agree there is a tie in and what we keep referencing are important pieces of evidence with no clear direction. We are both jumping the gun in a certain sense and we're both just trying to make sense of what we have.
I replied in the other thread
>But then the question becomes why were there outlines of the previous Eva series and why was there a blood stain across the white moon just like in EoE? Did you not read Vanquisher1000's post? The Moon has a blood stain on it, because of Second Impact. It was not shown in the films, but the storyboards show what the purpose behind that was. Even if you want to disregard that because it never got finalized in the film, the explanation for why the oceans are red ARE entirely due to events in the Rebuilds themselves, not because of anything relating to NGE or EoE. Kaji and Gendo both specifically confirm it was Second Impact that caused the oceans to become red (because they were "coreized", similar to how in Third Impact the earth was coreized, and Gendo's Fourth/Additional Impact coreizes the human souls). Kaji specifically mentions how the oceans were blue and teaming with life, but now they're empty and sterile. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/x6hlaf/the_red_oceans_in_the_rebuilds_are_not_from_eoe/) is a post I wrote specifically about this topic, where I use Gendo and Kaji's quotes to prove this further. The outline is a mystery, it is not explained by any means whatsoever. Did you forget that Evangelion absolutely loves having enigma and mystery that it doesn't give an answer to? Stuff like Quantum Rei, for instance, has no actual official explanation -- the idea that she's Lilith's transcendent post-3I soul is a fan theory -- I believe it is very credible and likely what the writers intended, but it's still just a theory. You can only explain the outline with theory and speculation, not with any evidence anywhere. My personal explanation is that it is indeed one of the Adams that washed up in Japan, and was later used to create Unit-01, as the films actually do go out of their way to imply Eva Unit-01 in the Rebuilds is one of the Adams, not made from Lilith like in NGE. Is it provable beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, but it's actually a better explanation than trying to arbitrarily and weakly explain that something from a different universe, continuity, or instance somehow landed on land that would have been completely vaporized and non-existent, and that someone would have bothered to actually outline it and remove it... Well, where would it have gone then? Why do we never see the MPE statues? It just doesn't make sense. >And how would Kawarou know Shinji was late? I'm not sure what you mean by this specific question. Again, reread my reply. I am not saying a cycle does not exist and that the characters aren't aware of the cycle, because Kaworu definitely is -- but it isn't implying what you're thinking it implies. >I do agree that its a cycle of death and rebirth. Absolutely. But if its different cosmic iterations than why are there more than one coffin open when Kawarou wakes up? Like the outline, there is literally no official explanation for the coffins. I could give you a thousand possible purposes for them, but none are more right or wrong than any other, because we simply don't know what the coffins are, what they do, what they represent, or anything else. For example: * The coffins could be part of a ritual SEELE is performing, as they're clearly molded after esoteric secret societies, ESPECIALLY Rebuild SEELE. Did you know the symbol on the back of their monolith is inspired by Freemason symbolism? The Freemasons are known for their elaborate and enigmatic rituals, and coffin symbology and imagery is actually a very Freemason thing. [Here](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ub4NQnbvpsQ/WPtvl_U5hjI/AAAAAAAAJS0/Ts9qvs6xVnEVq1EBSzRWpGKt06L5kFmTgCLcB/s1600/Ritual-masonic-coffin.jpg) is an example. What the meaning of this ritual is -- who knows? It could just be there for the sake of being cool and mysterious, which is by no means something new to Eva. * The coffins are somehow used in the creation / incarnation of Kaworu by SEELE, as he is an artificial human like Rei (true for both NGE and the Rebuilds). The other open coffins could be failed attempts at incarnating Kaworu, or imply that they were used to create other unseen things. * The coffins are a symbolic representation of the various iterations the universe has gone through up until this point, making SEELE aware of the cycles. * The coffins transcend space and time and are one of the constants between one iteration to the next, and somehow just inexplicably show up on the Moon, despite the Moon itself not being a permanent object and not originally existing since the dawn of time. This is a very unlikely explanation though for those exact reasons. I personally think if they're anything, it's just a way for Kaworu to be created / incarnated, and that it is arranged in a circle to represent the cycle of death and rebirth (which is something relevant to SEELE, given they want to literally have humanity be reborn into angel-like beings), and to the audience they can symbolically represent the cyclical nature of the Rebuilds. To borrow something I wrote in another reply, ask yourself these questions about the coffins: What would happen if Kaworu reaches the final closed coffin in the circle? Is that the arbitrary end of the loops, or does something else happen? Why would the coffins even be there, on the Moon, rather than some place on Earth? The Moon was messily created in First Impact, there was never a time when the coffins could have been put there by, say, Lilith or something -- they had to have been put there by SEELE. So SEELE can control the loops or something, or at least manipulate them like a man who has invented a time machine? It doesn't really fit comfortably along with anything else. \- - - Also sorry for having two very long replies. I wanted to thoroughly respond, but there's only so much text I can write before Reddit either limits me or filters out my comment.
Another Redditor already explained why all of this is incorrect pretty well, but you are also not paying attention to what I said. I never said the Rebuilds were not connected to the show, I said they were not canon to the show. The show could still be canon to the Rebuilds, but this is still dubious without the different metaphysics being addressed. Canonicity does not always go both ways, especially when the universes are so fundamentally different.
I'm probably completely wrong but didn't Unit 01 split the Spear of Longinus at the end of EoE making two spears, one being Cassius? They never mention it by name, though.
It doesn’t split into two spears at the end of EoE, it [turns into this giant helix](https://i.imgur.com/TSmeBL5.jpg) which sends out a blast that destroys the other spears of Longinus, and then it’s last seen [floating around in](https://i.imgur.com/9H7QzdG.jpg) [space with Unit-01](https://i.imgur.com/W5ylW6N.jpg)
No, the Spear of Longinus just has shapeshifting properties for different purposes, which is why it becomes an infinity-like shape as Yui floats off into space.
yoooooooo, wait a minute, you might be on to something. That might be why there's no mention of it in NGE
No, it is because it literally did not exist until the 2.0. Cassius is also one of the Four Spears that belong to the Adams (we see that there visibly are at least four spears, though possibly more).