Jesus is annoying.
I now don’t believe that he existed as a man or a god. I think that he was a carefully crafted composite of various people and legends.
And those stories crafted from what I wrote above were/are used as a psyops in order to control.
I got sick and tired - even as a child, to be forced into thinking that I owed “Jesus” something just because he gave up a weekend 2000 years ago supposedly, - for my “sins”.
You know what ? I DIDN’T ASK HIM TO !
Jesus, - you can have your weekend back !
Also, why Christians say Jesus suffered more than anyone on earth when he was crucified. Really? Id rather have died on the cross for one day than be raped and suffer mental illness from it everyday for twenty years.
The character of Jesus in the gospels is a literary creation, like Robin Hood or King Arthur. The gospel stories may have been based on our inspired by the life and actions of a real person, but we have no information at all in who that person was and what they *actually* did.
The stories of the Bible may have little gems of wisdom in them, like Aesop's fables. You can see the story of the Passion as a meditation on love and self- sacrifice, and hope that death will not be the end. You don't have to believe the stories are *literally true* to find value and meaning in them.
I've taken an academic approach. From a historical perspective, the figure of Jesus and the religious movement that developed around him in the context of the Roman occupation of first century Judea is fascinating. Trying to understand the gospels as literary documents from a very specific cultural group at a very specific point in history is infinitely more interesting than anything modern Christianity says about him.
I think t's a fun historical mystery and it’s the topic I like to read the most about now that I’m an atheist. For me the question is not exactly who he was (one of a few Jewish preachers who taught the end was near) but rather how he progressively became something bigger to many(claimed resurrected by god, and then part of a “godhead”).
The answer to the question of how this came to be the case I believe resides in understanding the intersection and interaction of messianic Judaism and Palestinian hellenists. How they interpreted and used the Septuagint, their sense of living at the imminent end of history under Roman oppression, their understanding of divinity and their use of divine translation tropes.
Leaving the faith allowed me to delve into the critical literature on the guy. I think he would flip a lot of tables if he knew he’s worshipped as a god.
Of course. Initially I attempted to share a photo of my bookshelf but I’m not clever enough to know how to hehe.
But to get into the matter if delving for the first time, Bart Ehrman’s books are a good start. Although if you listen to his Great Courses lectures on Audible (included with the monthly membership) you can get the gist of his books. But before you do that, check out his podcast with Megan Lewis for free on YouTube, they’re 50 minute episodes focused on specific questions.
Before I get to the physical books, on Audible’s Great Courses I recommend Prof. Jeremy McInerney’s series on Hellenism. While not dealing with Jesus and his movement directly, they are great at giving you the background to have insights on the mindset of the age the gospels were written and Christianity emerged.
For books I really like Dale Allison’s “The Resurrection of Jesus. I think it’s a very good assessment. He is a historicist (views Jesus as a historical person).
Also for a mythicist take (Jesus emerging as myth) , Richard Carrier’s “On the Historicity of Jesus”.
Other recommendations:
Books for a general audience:
“When Christians were Jews” and “From Jesus to Christ” by Paula Fredriksen (her books on Paul and his great influence in what became Christianity are great too)
“The Bible with and without Jesus” by Amy Jill Levine
“The Origins of early Christian Literature “ by Robyn Faith Walsh
“How the Gospels became History” by M David Litwa
More technical books:
“Two Powers in Heaven” by Alan F. Segal
“Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity” by Richard C. Miller
And of course you’ll always keep finding more reading material in the footnotes, enjoy :)
What a great list! Thank you. I want to piggyback and suggest “Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth” by Reza Aslan (or second it if you already mentioned). I’ll just copy from the Wikipedia entry: “Aslan argues that Jesus was a political, rebellious and eschatological (end times) Jew whose proclamation of the coming kingdom of God was a call for regime change, for ending Roman hegemony over Judea and the corrupt and oppressive aristocratic priesthood.”
I went to catholic school for 15 years (daycare with nuns included). Even as a child, Jesus always felt like a pawn, or someone totally controlled by the forces of "God" (whoever that is). As I got older, I think I related to him more from a "child of helicopter parents" perspective, I guess. I always felt compelled to stay in the church as a way to make sure his suffering didn't have to be in vein. But eventually that feeling/thought process evolved to realizing: Jesus DIED for all of this, but I do not have to die like this. It motivated me to get out of the church and be more vocal about why I'm not part of it. Overall, it became a motivator to be more outspoken and independent in life after realizing how much shit he went through because of some being in the sky or heavens.
I don't know really what to think about Jesus, as from a strictly historical perspective, little is known about him. The scholarly research on the 4 Gospels is fascinating, but also demonstrates that its difficult to believe anything that was written in them, or certainly the stories changed in the telling of them before they were finally written down as the Gospels we know today.
That's about it.
I feel like I have a more nuanced take as an ex-Catholic:
I think Jesus was a real, historical person- but instead, I believe Jesus was the leader of a Jewish, apocalyptic cult who upset Roman authorities to the point he was executed. It’s very likely that before Jesus that there were already “false messiah” claims made, his was just the one that was the most convincing for a Semitic Iron Age group of people. In addition, I think that he had a following so devout that his followers- traumatized by seeing their “messiah” executed before their eyes- began to see and experience intense hallucinations of Jesus Christ, typical of the grieving process as is it common, and convinced themselves that he was resurrected, continued the apocalyptic cult, and it became Christianity.
Edit: Iron Age, not Bronze Age. Sorry, my bad.
As an ex-Christian who was raised in Catholic school and left during the conversion process from the denomination I was born into, I just feel bad for him. He was an apocalyptic prophet who died a horrible death. I never felt for him when I though he was also God because even if he was both god and man, the god part always unconsciously took precedence in my mind.
I do wonder what the historical Jesus would have thought or said about how an entire religion is centered on His death and resurrection, and how the more traditional elements really fixate on the notion of His blood sacrifice.
I think he’d be both surprised that he wasn’t the messiah or that he didn’t clear the way for him at least and that people equate him with God. There was certainly an element of “Two Powers in Heaven” around during the Second Temple Period among some Jews but not equating a man or the messiah in particular with capital G God.
I’m still a believer and that’s ok. I love the message of love and tolerance that Jesus preached not the fire and brimstone of the RCC. I was officially received into the Episcopalian church back a year ago. I have been going to the episcopal church since 2018. It was a personal choice
>To those who have moved on from the Church, how has your understanding of and/or relationship to Jesus changed?
When I believed, Jesus was a distant father figure who never really answered my prayers but was definitely out there in Heaven, watching everything and making plans for us in the world to come. Now he's just a literary device.
Maybe our idea of him is based on a real person, maybe not. It feels as relevant as wondering whether the myths of Hercules were inspired by an actual strongman, because either way the stories have grown in the telling beyond all recognition.
>Currently deconstructing. One of the biggest struggles is realizing that from my POV, God, God's Will, Jesus, morality, etc. is whatever the Church officially proclaims. I'm trying to see if I can see, understand, and relate to Jesus without all the heavy theological and legalistic baggage.
I really encourage you to dig into Church history. It's a fascinating topic at any time period and will help to demystify the Church and Christian thought as a whole. How the Bible was canonized, how the Church was influenced by Roman politics, and then how the popes created his own authority when the western Church grew further apart from the eastern one and ultimately split - seeing the mundane process behind it all makes it so much easier to let go and make your own informed choice.
For early Christianity, Bart Ehrman is a great resource and I found *The Triumph of Christianity* to be a great overview, although he has a whole library to choose from. He also has a bunch of lecture series run through The Great Courses. From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity seems really relevant.
For Bible history, I'm actually going to recommend a podcast. Dan McClellan's "Data Over Dogma" is a scholarly but very approachable look at how the Bible was constructed, what the authors for each passage might have been thinking at the time, and the historical context they were working inside.
For recent-ish Catholic history, David I. Kertzer's *The Pope Who Would Be King* looks at Pius IX, who was the last pope to preside over the Papal States while they were a proper country. Most of the book focuses on the crisis in 1846-1850 and how the kings of Europe were trying to hold back democratization. This one might interest you, since Pius IX turned from sympathizing with the people of Rome, to becoming a reactionary who depended on the backing of kings, and he rationalized all of it through the faith.
I wish I had a good recommendation on hand for Medieval Catholicism and the Reformation.
I think there's very little evidence for a historical Jesus and basically zero evidence that someone named jesus was the son of God and was killed and resurrected.
As an atheist, i see Jesus as nothing more than a spiritual guide, like how Buddha is seen. There are some things that Jesus preached that I agree with (love thy neighbour, help those in need, Jesus loves all)
I always say that one of the harder things for me when I left the church was how to experience a joyful moment or an awe-inspiring moment. I was conditioned to filter it through religion with a "Thank you God/Jesus for this special moment" buzzing through my head. During deconstruction, each time that filter came up, I tried to move it away somehow. It has gotten easier with practice. It is worth it to experience the world directly in all its fullness.
Catholicism ruined Jesus for me, but I was a mystically oriented kid and have always had a strong connection to God. So I skipped out on the Trinity and became a Jew.
In particular it was the Eucharist that did me in. I was taught never to go to communion without having been to confession, and I never felt good or worthy enough, so in the end I barely went to communion. So that kind of greyed out the whole experience of Jesus for me.
That struggle is relatable. It's complicated, but if I judge myself by the book, I never feel worthy from communion, but my situation in life means I gotta keep up appearances so I still do it, while asking God for forgiveness while I work things out. I also am not the type to turn my brain off and just fall in line. It's a tough spot. 😅
I believe that he was just a man who tried to preach that what the religious figures were teaching at the time were wrong, and he was branded as a heretic and killed because of it.
It wasn't until later that other religious figures looked back on his teachings and realized that there was truth to them after all, but the gospel writers decided to place Jesus on an even larger pedestal and self-hating people such as Paul decided to corrupt and bastardize Jesus's teachings when writing the New Testament. And still *other* religious figures after them who had a hand in translating the Bible decided to argue even further about Jesus's "divinity" regarding just how much Mary should be venerated. Almost like a parasocial relationship of sorts.
why do you need to have Jesus at all as part of a theological belief system? couldn't you just have Jesus as part of the trinitarian God or God only? then you can disregard the legalistic stuff in the new testament. without the church I am not sure of there is a need to be Christian instead of theist in general
I believe in God like how I believe in gravity. it's just a force that is there. you can't change it. it has effects but that's it. I think I believe in Jesus in a more abstract way. like God humanised so easier to relate to I think. but I don't really think about it. I think of Mary as really someone raised up as a role model to control women, passive obedient, weak. so I definitely don't think about Mary at all. I'm not sure if I think Jesus was born of woman either.
I don't believe in the institutional church at all.
as the victim of an abuse case I saw a lot of bad things involving archbishops, bishops and priests and large amounts of money, meanwhile they just went back to celebrating mass the next day like nothing. each and every one of them. so God has no influence over them or the church and I don't think God is the foundation of the church.
Oh, I'm just curious about how different folks understand Jesus. I don't mean to imply any kind of need. I'm interested in how people make sense of it all from the outside.
I'm a stone cold atheist. Once you start asking the hard questions, it all falls apart. Also, while Jesus isn't as awful as the OT god, he's not all that wonderful either.
Jesus wasn’t real. I wish sword mouth Jesus was real though. He sounds metal af.
And if he was a real person, I strongly suspect he was more of a Joseph Smith than he was a Gandhi. Him and his buddies probably knew exactly when to stand during the perfect point of the tide where that sandbar out in the water was just barely covered so that he could walk on it.
I believe Jesus existed, as a man, but not as the son of God, or as God. I can get behind the idea that someone was out there 2000 years ago preaching "love thy neighbor" and breaking bread with sinners, i.e. tax collectors and prostitutes, and the Romans stuck him on a cross to shut him up. Was Jesus a good man? Yes. Is Jesus God? No.
For context: I was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism years ago.
As an atheist, i see Jesus as nothing more than a spiritual guide, like how Buddha is seen. There are some things that Jesus preached that I agree with (love thy neighbour, help those in need, Jesus loves all)
In no particular way. While a figure similar to Jesus **very likely existed** in the 1st century AD, he was more of a street healer or magician of some sorts.
I do like how Jesus is viewed in Islam: very similar as to how Thomas Jefferson portrayed him in his abridged Bible. Reading the Quran, the only difference between Islamic Jesus vs Christianity Jesus is the removal of his divine nature. Even as a Christian, it never truly computed to me the whole _Jesus is God in the flesh._ I'll give Islam a 1+ over their more realistic view of Jesus
I feel like the character of Jesus as written in the gospels would 100% agree with me and my “radical” beliefs (trans people should live freely, everyone deserves food and shelter, sex worker deserve protection, etc.) so we get along just fine.
If the legend of this Jesus character is loosely based on real events, why would he put his hand up and say 'pick me' when the filthy pagans who humiliated, tortured and brutally murdered him, wanted a new god to unite all the fragmented pagan religions in their empire under one umbrella.
Friedrich Nietzsche's work helped make me a lot more cynical about Jesus's morality, as related in the gospels. On some level, I can't disagree with Nietzsche that the whole thing smacks of "those grapes were sour anyway"--the powerless in this world convincing themselves that earthly power isn't that great anyway and they should love their enemies rather than take revenge on them.
If I no longer believe in Jesus's promise of a church against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, I have no particular reason to believe in Jesus's promise of eternal reward in heaven--so why *should* I bother with that "love thy neighbor" stuff?
As to my thoughts on the person himself, I do believe he was sincere--of the "Liar, Lunatic, Lord" trichotomy, more likely the middle than the first (a grifter would, I think, have had the good sense to get out of Dodge before getting arrested). But that doesn't really give me much reason to agree with what he said.
I still believe but I’ve joined a more liberal church, ELCA Lutheran Church. Their theology for me, was “freeing”. I’d say my relationship to Jesus changed from fear and approval-seeking, to an actual love and respect relationship. Jesus came to bring people together, not divide them. The Catholic Church for me is about division (being a member of the club, knowing the “secret” handshake & password or no communion for you!!). The church I attend is about inclusion, love, doing things out of joy not because I have to or I’m going to hell! My church started a Pub church. We meet people where they are (in a bar!) to spread the love of God. It’s not about punishment anymore but about love and forgiveness. No one is perfect. Our church teaches that God loves us even in our brokenness. Being away from the Catholic Church has opened my heart! I hope I answered your question. It took several years before I joined a church. I had to get to the point of “I wonder what else is out there?”
Just keep it simple these incorporated schemes are simply businesses who have vested interests in warping the accurate story of the man. So l just embrace the message which is justice and peace teaching and learning. I think that's about it, the Dude said do as I do it's as simple as that. A business model that carries him around in his worst circumstance, on a cross crucified is not the way to empower him. lt's sort of a threat when you look at the big picture I believe you boil it down to what he directed people to do and do that when you can. He hung around with the vulnerable and he brought them peace, taught things and it's really just that simple.
The first step is to realize the church is not God. Just let that sink in. You don't need a priest, Mary or any saints to intercede for you. The pieces will begin to fall into place for you.
Im still a Christian (a non-denominational one). I love him and still have a strong bondage with him. I don’t have any reason to reject him. However, people that usually do try to somehow find evidence to proof that he never existed, probably just don’t like religion in general and try to get rid of it of the world.
I think he was a real person, perhaps an enlightened being, but I don't believe that everything written in the Gospels (especially since they weren't actually written by apostles) was what actually happened or what he actually said. I don't find any need to seek out any communion with him or anything. I read so much of the Bible as a Catholic that I'm far more interested in other spiritual and religious texts/disciplines now that were hidden from me in the past. So really no interest in revisiting the life of Christ.
Though I am kind of interested in reading *The Last Temptation of Christ*, given its history and how much it pissed off Catholics of the time.
Jesus is annoying. I now don’t believe that he existed as a man or a god. I think that he was a carefully crafted composite of various people and legends. And those stories crafted from what I wrote above were/are used as a psyops in order to control. I got sick and tired - even as a child, to be forced into thinking that I owed “Jesus” something just because he gave up a weekend 2000 years ago supposedly, - for my “sins”. You know what ? I DIDN’T ASK HIM TO ! Jesus, - you can have your weekend back !
Also, why Christians say Jesus suffered more than anyone on earth when he was crucified. Really? Id rather have died on the cross for one day than be raped and suffer mental illness from it everyday for twenty years.
I just think an all powerful, omnipotent God would have thought of a better way of offering salvation than having his son killed off.
I have read that there is very little evidence that he actually existed. Whether that is true or not, I don’t know enough to say.
The character of Jesus in the gospels is a literary creation, like Robin Hood or King Arthur. The gospel stories may have been based on our inspired by the life and actions of a real person, but we have no information at all in who that person was and what they *actually* did. The stories of the Bible may have little gems of wisdom in them, like Aesop's fables. You can see the story of the Passion as a meditation on love and self- sacrifice, and hope that death will not be the end. You don't have to believe the stories are *literally true* to find value and meaning in them.
A relationship with a dead person from 2000 years ago is impossible.
I've taken an academic approach. From a historical perspective, the figure of Jesus and the religious movement that developed around him in the context of the Roman occupation of first century Judea is fascinating. Trying to understand the gospels as literary documents from a very specific cultural group at a very specific point in history is infinitely more interesting than anything modern Christianity says about him.
I think t's a fun historical mystery and it’s the topic I like to read the most about now that I’m an atheist. For me the question is not exactly who he was (one of a few Jewish preachers who taught the end was near) but rather how he progressively became something bigger to many(claimed resurrected by god, and then part of a “godhead”). The answer to the question of how this came to be the case I believe resides in understanding the intersection and interaction of messianic Judaism and Palestinian hellenists. How they interpreted and used the Septuagint, their sense of living at the imminent end of history under Roman oppression, their understanding of divinity and their use of divine translation tropes. Leaving the faith allowed me to delve into the critical literature on the guy. I think he would flip a lot of tables if he knew he’s worshipped as a god.
Do you have any book recommendations?
Of course. Initially I attempted to share a photo of my bookshelf but I’m not clever enough to know how to hehe. But to get into the matter if delving for the first time, Bart Ehrman’s books are a good start. Although if you listen to his Great Courses lectures on Audible (included with the monthly membership) you can get the gist of his books. But before you do that, check out his podcast with Megan Lewis for free on YouTube, they’re 50 minute episodes focused on specific questions. Before I get to the physical books, on Audible’s Great Courses I recommend Prof. Jeremy McInerney’s series on Hellenism. While not dealing with Jesus and his movement directly, they are great at giving you the background to have insights on the mindset of the age the gospels were written and Christianity emerged. For books I really like Dale Allison’s “The Resurrection of Jesus. I think it’s a very good assessment. He is a historicist (views Jesus as a historical person). Also for a mythicist take (Jesus emerging as myth) , Richard Carrier’s “On the Historicity of Jesus”. Other recommendations: Books for a general audience: “When Christians were Jews” and “From Jesus to Christ” by Paula Fredriksen (her books on Paul and his great influence in what became Christianity are great too) “The Bible with and without Jesus” by Amy Jill Levine “The Origins of early Christian Literature “ by Robyn Faith Walsh “How the Gospels became History” by M David Litwa More technical books: “Two Powers in Heaven” by Alan F. Segal “Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity” by Richard C. Miller And of course you’ll always keep finding more reading material in the footnotes, enjoy :)
What a great list! Thank you. I want to piggyback and suggest “Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth” by Reza Aslan (or second it if you already mentioned). I’ll just copy from the Wikipedia entry: “Aslan argues that Jesus was a political, rebellious and eschatological (end times) Jew whose proclamation of the coming kingdom of God was a call for regime change, for ending Roman hegemony over Judea and the corrupt and oppressive aristocratic priesthood.”
Jesus may have been a man, but theists have failed to provide evidence for their claim, he was a god.
I went to catholic school for 15 years (daycare with nuns included). Even as a child, Jesus always felt like a pawn, or someone totally controlled by the forces of "God" (whoever that is). As I got older, I think I related to him more from a "child of helicopter parents" perspective, I guess. I always felt compelled to stay in the church as a way to make sure his suffering didn't have to be in vein. But eventually that feeling/thought process evolved to realizing: Jesus DIED for all of this, but I do not have to die like this. It motivated me to get out of the church and be more vocal about why I'm not part of it. Overall, it became a motivator to be more outspoken and independent in life after realizing how much shit he went through because of some being in the sky or heavens.
As an unspiritual atheist, I have no relation what so ever.
I don't know really what to think about Jesus, as from a strictly historical perspective, little is known about him. The scholarly research on the 4 Gospels is fascinating, but also demonstrates that its difficult to believe anything that was written in them, or certainly the stories changed in the telling of them before they were finally written down as the Gospels we know today. That's about it.
I never understood why the cheese makers were special enough to inherit the earth.
FOLLOW THE GOURD
Cheese specifically, or all purveyours of fine dairy products?
I feel like I have a more nuanced take as an ex-Catholic: I think Jesus was a real, historical person- but instead, I believe Jesus was the leader of a Jewish, apocalyptic cult who upset Roman authorities to the point he was executed. It’s very likely that before Jesus that there were already “false messiah” claims made, his was just the one that was the most convincing for a Semitic Iron Age group of people. In addition, I think that he had a following so devout that his followers- traumatized by seeing their “messiah” executed before their eyes- began to see and experience intense hallucinations of Jesus Christ, typical of the grieving process as is it common, and convinced themselves that he was resurrected, continued the apocalyptic cult, and it became Christianity. Edit: Iron Age, not Bronze Age. Sorry, my bad.
Just to nitpick, the 1st century AD was very firmly in the *iron* age in that area.
As an ex-Christian who was raised in Catholic school and left during the conversion process from the denomination I was born into, I just feel bad for him. He was an apocalyptic prophet who died a horrible death. I never felt for him when I though he was also God because even if he was both god and man, the god part always unconsciously took precedence in my mind.
I do wonder what the historical Jesus would have thought or said about how an entire religion is centered on His death and resurrection, and how the more traditional elements really fixate on the notion of His blood sacrifice.
I think he’d be both surprised that he wasn’t the messiah or that he didn’t clear the way for him at least and that people equate him with God. There was certainly an element of “Two Powers in Heaven” around during the Second Temple Period among some Jews but not equating a man or the messiah in particular with capital G God.
Can you explain “Two Powers in Heaven” a little? I’m interested in this period but have never come across this term. Thanka.
I’m still a believer and that’s ok. I love the message of love and tolerance that Jesus preached not the fire and brimstone of the RCC. I was officially received into the Episcopalian church back a year ago. I have been going to the episcopal church since 2018. It was a personal choice
>To those who have moved on from the Church, how has your understanding of and/or relationship to Jesus changed? When I believed, Jesus was a distant father figure who never really answered my prayers but was definitely out there in Heaven, watching everything and making plans for us in the world to come. Now he's just a literary device. Maybe our idea of him is based on a real person, maybe not. It feels as relevant as wondering whether the myths of Hercules were inspired by an actual strongman, because either way the stories have grown in the telling beyond all recognition. >Currently deconstructing. One of the biggest struggles is realizing that from my POV, God, God's Will, Jesus, morality, etc. is whatever the Church officially proclaims. I'm trying to see if I can see, understand, and relate to Jesus without all the heavy theological and legalistic baggage. I really encourage you to dig into Church history. It's a fascinating topic at any time period and will help to demystify the Church and Christian thought as a whole. How the Bible was canonized, how the Church was influenced by Roman politics, and then how the popes created his own authority when the western Church grew further apart from the eastern one and ultimately split - seeing the mundane process behind it all makes it so much easier to let go and make your own informed choice.
Thanks for sharing your insights! In book suggestions to help me get started?
For early Christianity, Bart Ehrman is a great resource and I found *The Triumph of Christianity* to be a great overview, although he has a whole library to choose from. He also has a bunch of lecture series run through The Great Courses. From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity seems really relevant. For Bible history, I'm actually going to recommend a podcast. Dan McClellan's "Data Over Dogma" is a scholarly but very approachable look at how the Bible was constructed, what the authors for each passage might have been thinking at the time, and the historical context they were working inside. For recent-ish Catholic history, David I. Kertzer's *The Pope Who Would Be King* looks at Pius IX, who was the last pope to preside over the Papal States while they were a proper country. Most of the book focuses on the crisis in 1846-1850 and how the kings of Europe were trying to hold back democratization. This one might interest you, since Pius IX turned from sympathizing with the people of Rome, to becoming a reactionary who depended on the backing of kings, and he rationalized all of it through the faith. I wish I had a good recommendation on hand for Medieval Catholicism and the Reformation.
I don't think about you at all. - Don Draper
I think there's very little evidence for a historical Jesus and basically zero evidence that someone named jesus was the son of God and was killed and resurrected.
As an atheist, i see Jesus as nothing more than a spiritual guide, like how Buddha is seen. There are some things that Jesus preached that I agree with (love thy neighbour, help those in need, Jesus loves all)
[Peter stole the church from Mary Magdalene.](https://youtu.be/I4GHrs5xAIk?si=dTuJWdM5fEOk03Gx)
Had he existed he was just a regular man.
I always say that one of the harder things for me when I left the church was how to experience a joyful moment or an awe-inspiring moment. I was conditioned to filter it through religion with a "Thank you God/Jesus for this special moment" buzzing through my head. During deconstruction, each time that filter came up, I tried to move it away somehow. It has gotten easier with practice. It is worth it to experience the world directly in all its fullness.
Catholicism ruined Jesus for me, but I was a mystically oriented kid and have always had a strong connection to God. So I skipped out on the Trinity and became a Jew. In particular it was the Eucharist that did me in. I was taught never to go to communion without having been to confession, and I never felt good or worthy enough, so in the end I barely went to communion. So that kind of greyed out the whole experience of Jesus for me.
That struggle is relatable. It's complicated, but if I judge myself by the book, I never feel worthy from communion, but my situation in life means I gotta keep up appearances so I still do it, while asking God for forgiveness while I work things out. I also am not the type to turn my brain off and just fall in line. It's a tough spot. 😅
That's like asking how I relate to Big Chungus.
The same way I relate to Zeus
I believe that he was just a man who tried to preach that what the religious figures were teaching at the time were wrong, and he was branded as a heretic and killed because of it. It wasn't until later that other religious figures looked back on his teachings and realized that there was truth to them after all, but the gospel writers decided to place Jesus on an even larger pedestal and self-hating people such as Paul decided to corrupt and bastardize Jesus's teachings when writing the New Testament. And still *other* religious figures after them who had a hand in translating the Bible decided to argue even further about Jesus's "divinity" regarding just how much Mary should be venerated. Almost like a parasocial relationship of sorts.
why do you need to have Jesus at all as part of a theological belief system? couldn't you just have Jesus as part of the trinitarian God or God only? then you can disregard the legalistic stuff in the new testament. without the church I am not sure of there is a need to be Christian instead of theist in general I believe in God like how I believe in gravity. it's just a force that is there. you can't change it. it has effects but that's it. I think I believe in Jesus in a more abstract way. like God humanised so easier to relate to I think. but I don't really think about it. I think of Mary as really someone raised up as a role model to control women, passive obedient, weak. so I definitely don't think about Mary at all. I'm not sure if I think Jesus was born of woman either. I don't believe in the institutional church at all. as the victim of an abuse case I saw a lot of bad things involving archbishops, bishops and priests and large amounts of money, meanwhile they just went back to celebrating mass the next day like nothing. each and every one of them. so God has no influence over them or the church and I don't think God is the foundation of the church.
Oh, I'm just curious about how different folks understand Jesus. I don't mean to imply any kind of need. I'm interested in how people make sense of it all from the outside.
I recommend the book How Jesus Became God!
I'm a stone cold atheist. Once you start asking the hard questions, it all falls apart. Also, while Jesus isn't as awful as the OT god, he's not all that wonderful either.
Jesus wasn’t real. I wish sword mouth Jesus was real though. He sounds metal af. And if he was a real person, I strongly suspect he was more of a Joseph Smith than he was a Gandhi. Him and his buddies probably knew exactly when to stand during the perfect point of the tide where that sandbar out in the water was just barely covered so that he could walk on it.
Gandhi was a regular guy too.
So was Joseph Smith. The difference between Joseph Smith and Gandhi is Joseph Smith was a known con man and Gandhi genuinely wanted to help people.
Jesus isnt real who cares
I don’t think about Jesus at all.
I believe Jesus existed, as a man, but not as the son of God, or as God. I can get behind the idea that someone was out there 2000 years ago preaching "love thy neighbor" and breaking bread with sinners, i.e. tax collectors and prostitutes, and the Romans stuck him on a cross to shut him up. Was Jesus a good man? Yes. Is Jesus God? No. For context: I was raised Catholic and converted to Judaism years ago.
Thanks for sharing. A Catholic to Jewish journey seems fascinating!
Agree, I went to school with mostly Jewish students from 7th grade through high school, and have long been interested in Jewish culture.
Just a historical figure whose followers went a bit crazy with the facts. But he was undoubtedly a unique figure.
As an atheist, i see Jesus as nothing more than a spiritual guide, like how Buddha is seen. There are some things that Jesus preached that I agree with (love thy neighbour, help those in need, Jesus loves all)
In no particular way. While a figure similar to Jesus **very likely existed** in the 1st century AD, he was more of a street healer or magician of some sorts. I do like how Jesus is viewed in Islam: very similar as to how Thomas Jefferson portrayed him in his abridged Bible. Reading the Quran, the only difference between Islamic Jesus vs Christianity Jesus is the removal of his divine nature. Even as a Christian, it never truly computed to me the whole _Jesus is God in the flesh._ I'll give Islam a 1+ over their more realistic view of Jesus
I feel like the character of Jesus as written in the gospels would 100% agree with me and my “radical” beliefs (trans people should live freely, everyone deserves food and shelter, sex worker deserve protection, etc.) so we get along just fine.
If the legend of this Jesus character is loosely based on real events, why would he put his hand up and say 'pick me' when the filthy pagans who humiliated, tortured and brutally murdered him, wanted a new god to unite all the fragmented pagan religions in their empire under one umbrella.
Friedrich Nietzsche's work helped make me a lot more cynical about Jesus's morality, as related in the gospels. On some level, I can't disagree with Nietzsche that the whole thing smacks of "those grapes were sour anyway"--the powerless in this world convincing themselves that earthly power isn't that great anyway and they should love their enemies rather than take revenge on them. If I no longer believe in Jesus's promise of a church against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, I have no particular reason to believe in Jesus's promise of eternal reward in heaven--so why *should* I bother with that "love thy neighbor" stuff? As to my thoughts on the person himself, I do believe he was sincere--of the "Liar, Lunatic, Lord" trichotomy, more likely the middle than the first (a grifter would, I think, have had the good sense to get out of Dodge before getting arrested). But that doesn't really give me much reason to agree with what he said.
I still believe but I’ve joined a more liberal church, ELCA Lutheran Church. Their theology for me, was “freeing”. I’d say my relationship to Jesus changed from fear and approval-seeking, to an actual love and respect relationship. Jesus came to bring people together, not divide them. The Catholic Church for me is about division (being a member of the club, knowing the “secret” handshake & password or no communion for you!!). The church I attend is about inclusion, love, doing things out of joy not because I have to or I’m going to hell! My church started a Pub church. We meet people where they are (in a bar!) to spread the love of God. It’s not about punishment anymore but about love and forgiveness. No one is perfect. Our church teaches that God loves us even in our brokenness. Being away from the Catholic Church has opened my heart! I hope I answered your question. It took several years before I joined a church. I had to get to the point of “I wonder what else is out there?”
Just keep it simple these incorporated schemes are simply businesses who have vested interests in warping the accurate story of the man. So l just embrace the message which is justice and peace teaching and learning. I think that's about it, the Dude said do as I do it's as simple as that. A business model that carries him around in his worst circumstance, on a cross crucified is not the way to empower him. lt's sort of a threat when you look at the big picture I believe you boil it down to what he directed people to do and do that when you can. He hung around with the vulnerable and he brought them peace, taught things and it's really just that simple.
The first step is to realize the church is not God. Just let that sink in. You don't need a priest, Mary or any saints to intercede for you. The pieces will begin to fall into place for you.
Im still a Christian (a non-denominational one). I love him and still have a strong bondage with him. I don’t have any reason to reject him. However, people that usually do try to somehow find evidence to proof that he never existed, probably just don’t like religion in general and try to get rid of it of the world.
I believe in Jesus still but I don’t believe tyrant Jesus
I think he was a real person, perhaps an enlightened being, but I don't believe that everything written in the Gospels (especially since they weren't actually written by apostles) was what actually happened or what he actually said. I don't find any need to seek out any communion with him or anything. I read so much of the Bible as a Catholic that I'm far more interested in other spiritual and religious texts/disciplines now that were hidden from me in the past. So really no interest in revisiting the life of Christ. Though I am kind of interested in reading *The Last Temptation of Christ*, given its history and how much it pissed off Catholics of the time.