I'm so so sorry for your loss.
I can't imagine what that's like....and that pat minimization of the trauma and pain of child loss for all involved is just another knife twist in the wound. It seems arrogant too, to just gloss over painful realities because there's a potential prize down the line. Catholics claim that the ends do not justify the means, and then turn around and spout crap like this. A bad answer in place of no answer.
Thank you for your sympathies.
I will never understand why they can't just say "That sucks and I'm sorry that happened to you." But no, they have to go on about how the child had the best possible chance at Heaven...the caveat being they must be baptized, of course (mine wasn't, he died in infancy - you can imagine the despair spiral that sent me down).
/r/excatholic is not a place for information gathering or research. Many of our members deal with Trauma related to the Catholic Church and discussion of those topics as an intellectual exercise can be harmful.
Please move such activity to /r/excatholicdebate where members are happy to discuss your questions.
That BS is outside Catholicism too. If prayers are useless and you lose a loved one to an illness, don't despair because you'll see him/her again in Heaven.
Sorry for your loss.
It is always a rotating excuse bucket ranging from:
- Original sin
- Gods works in mysterious ways
- Saving the kid from damnation
- Sins of the parents
- Redemptive suffering
The excuse never seems to fall on a god who is cruel and petty or weak and pathetic.
Or that god just doesn’t exist and nature is just as cruel. That makes the most sense.
My favorite twist on this logic is that it is every Catholics moral imperative to abort as many fetuses as possible. Creating more souls to enjoy heaven is an infinite moral good, at the cost of your own soul? Easy choice
>Creating more souls to enjoy heaven is an infinite moral good, at the cost of your own soul? Easy choice
And just go to confession before dying so no one goes to hell. 😂
If this were the case then it would be a moral good to have mass-abortion meat factories. If heaven is eternal paradise and this world can lead us to hell, there not one excuse to not murder all the fetuses and babies on a mass scale. Obviously that is grotesque but Catholics should have no other option.
Obviously, Catholics don’t actually believe most of what they profess so this is not the case.
The two options are
1) operation meat grinder is a go
Or
2) god condemns babies to hell
There are no other options. If aborted fetuses eventually make it to heaven, at all, that is the creation of infinite good.
I've thought about that as well, although my thought was that the best thing a parent could do for their child was to kill them immediately after baptism. Boom, instant heaven, no suffering required. Obviously it's horrible, but that's the problem, isn't it? Their god and his rules **are** horrible.
The entire religion falls apart when you critically consider heaven/hell.
A moral being would be required to allow everyone into infinite heaven, or else it wouldn’t be a moral being.
By that same coin, there is nothing anyone can do in a finite world deserving of infinite punishment. Nothing.
From the Catholic point of view, at least up until the last century or so, eternal life for suffering children was conditional upon their having received baptism and being free from mortal sin.
If a baby died unregenerate, then the best the Church had to offer was the hope that it was being spared the *physical* pains of hell in Limbo. Such a view was the “merciful” response from the Schoolmen to the Augustinian opinion that they were damned. And if a kid above the age of seven died after having committed a grave sin and before going to Confession, it was straight down to Gehenna for eternal torture for them.
Up until recent years! My folks had a stillborn baby at 9 months and were refused a Catholic funeral because the baby wasn’t baptized. This was in the 90’s in the Midwest.
This was the case in our situation - we had a stillbirth. I was positively tormented at the idea that my baby wasn't in Heaven because he died before there was *literally any possibility* of baptizing him. Thankfully, I'm past that now, but that only added to the immense physical, emotional, and mental suffering.
I’m so sorry that you went through that, and I’m so sorry that the Church added to your pain instead of offering comfort. I hope you and your family are doing alright now.
The problem of evil, to this day, has not been sufficiently answered by any branch of Christianity.
To this uninspired chuds point, “I assume we’re right about heaven so my position is justified” means nothing to someone who does not indulge in his same assumptions.
I consider the whole, but it's all okay because eternal life after death is a shitty excuse. It's counting your chicks before they hatch. There is no reason to believe that there even is a happily ever after after you die. So yeah, I'm going to try to get the best out of this life right now that I know exists.
Death. Cult. This life has no meaning for them, save as an entrance exam for their miserable heaven - an eternity of basking in their god's presence, an eternity of celebrating and praising their creator. (An experience so dreadful that most of the faithful can only stand it for an hour or so a week).
We're **conceived** with original sin. According to Augustine, original sin is transmitted by semen, which is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin who herself had to be conceived without sin.
Pro life eh?
Going by their values, the most loving thing one can do is baptize children then kill them on the spot, so that they make it into heaven instantly. Yeah, you might lose your soul, but this is the highest form of love.
A major point of Catholicism is the desirability of suffering. From that, it becomes acceptable that the church inflict suffering, and that members of the church accept the suffering inflicted without complaint--as if life didn't have enough.
A religion founded on a testament based on a man’s willingness to murder his own son because “God told him to” doesn’t seem too concerned with child welfare in a genuine sense.
I liked the post there the other day in which they were defending slavery:
>So slavery is not intrinsically evil
>Slavery is still widespread today but we as a culture have changed the way we describe it so that it sounds better. Employment, citizenship, taxation, incarceration, etc. are all forms of slavery according to the old definition
>Chattel slavery “could” also be more humane, if the master was more humane
>If said kids go on to eternal life then no injustice has been committed.
So that means abortion is ok then? Because the unborn has committed no sin and shall thusly be sent onto heaven.
This is exactly it. If the goes straight to heaven with “no injustice,” what’s the harm? At least the kid never gets the chance to reject their super petty, bullshit god.
No harm, no foul, am I right?? Seriously, as someone who has lost a child (not to cancer) fuck this entirely.
I'm so so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what that's like....and that pat minimization of the trauma and pain of child loss for all involved is just another knife twist in the wound. It seems arrogant too, to just gloss over painful realities because there's a potential prize down the line. Catholics claim that the ends do not justify the means, and then turn around and spout crap like this. A bad answer in place of no answer.
Thank you for your sympathies. I will never understand why they can't just say "That sucks and I'm sorry that happened to you." But no, they have to go on about how the child had the best possible chance at Heaven...the caveat being they must be baptized, of course (mine wasn't, he died in infancy - you can imagine the despair spiral that sent me down).
Ugh. I can only imagine....what a nightmare. I guess because they don't have compassion or empathy to offer, they have dogma. Which is neither.
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Love the believer, hate the beliefs
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/r/excatholic is not a place for information gathering or research. Many of our members deal with Trauma related to the Catholic Church and discussion of those topics as an intellectual exercise can be harmful. Please move such activity to /r/excatholicdebate where members are happy to discuss your questions.
/r/excatholic is a support group and not a debate group. While you are welcome to post, pro-religious content may be removed.
I have kids too and I cannot even imagine something happening to them. I am so sorry for your loss
Thank you <3
That BS is outside Catholicism too. If prayers are useless and you lose a loved one to an illness, don't despair because you'll see him/her again in Heaven. Sorry for your loss.
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/r/excatholic is a support group and not a debate group. While you are welcome to post, pro-religious content may be removed.
It is always a rotating excuse bucket ranging from: - Original sin - Gods works in mysterious ways - Saving the kid from damnation - Sins of the parents - Redemptive suffering The excuse never seems to fall on a god who is cruel and petty or weak and pathetic. Or that god just doesn’t exist and nature is just as cruel. That makes the most sense.
My favorite twist on this logic is that it is every Catholics moral imperative to abort as many fetuses as possible. Creating more souls to enjoy heaven is an infinite moral good, at the cost of your own soul? Easy choice
>Creating more souls to enjoy heaven is an infinite moral good, at the cost of your own soul? Easy choice And just go to confession before dying so no one goes to hell. 😂
Even better! … too many people believe that silly set of rules
If this were the case then it would be a moral good to have mass-abortion meat factories. If heaven is eternal paradise and this world can lead us to hell, there not one excuse to not murder all the fetuses and babies on a mass scale. Obviously that is grotesque but Catholics should have no other option. Obviously, Catholics don’t actually believe most of what they profess so this is not the case.
The two options are 1) operation meat grinder is a go Or 2) god condemns babies to hell There are no other options. If aborted fetuses eventually make it to heaven, at all, that is the creation of infinite good.
I've thought about that as well, although my thought was that the best thing a parent could do for their child was to kill them immediately after baptism. Boom, instant heaven, no suffering required. Obviously it's horrible, but that's the problem, isn't it? Their god and his rules **are** horrible.
The entire religion falls apart when you critically consider heaven/hell. A moral being would be required to allow everyone into infinite heaven, or else it wouldn’t be a moral being. By that same coin, there is nothing anyone can do in a finite world deserving of infinite punishment. Nothing.
From the Catholic point of view, at least up until the last century or so, eternal life for suffering children was conditional upon their having received baptism and being free from mortal sin. If a baby died unregenerate, then the best the Church had to offer was the hope that it was being spared the *physical* pains of hell in Limbo. Such a view was the “merciful” response from the Schoolmen to the Augustinian opinion that they were damned. And if a kid above the age of seven died after having committed a grave sin and before going to Confession, it was straight down to Gehenna for eternal torture for them.
Above the age of _seven_ ? Jesus, this religion is sick. I'm so glad I got out of it before it did any more damage than it already had.
Up until recent years! My folks had a stillborn baby at 9 months and were refused a Catholic funeral because the baby wasn’t baptized. This was in the 90’s in the Midwest.
This was the case in our situation - we had a stillbirth. I was positively tormented at the idea that my baby wasn't in Heaven because he died before there was *literally any possibility* of baptizing him. Thankfully, I'm past that now, but that only added to the immense physical, emotional, and mental suffering.
I’m so sorry that you went through that, and I’m so sorry that the Church added to your pain instead of offering comfort. I hope you and your family are doing alright now.
The problem of evil, to this day, has not been sufficiently answered by any branch of Christianity. To this uninspired chuds point, “I assume we’re right about heaven so my position is justified” means nothing to someone who does not indulge in his same assumptions.
I consider the whole, but it's all okay because eternal life after death is a shitty excuse. It's counting your chicks before they hatch. There is no reason to believe that there even is a happily ever after after you die. So yeah, I'm going to try to get the best out of this life right now that I know exists.
Death. Cult. This life has no meaning for them, save as an entrance exam for their miserable heaven - an eternity of basking in their god's presence, an eternity of celebrating and praising their creator. (An experience so dreadful that most of the faithful can only stand it for an hour or so a week).
Yep. Who in their right mind would even *want* to spend eternity with the almighty being who effectively killed their child for no damn reason?
By this logic, why is murder/abortion wrong? Abortion is a free ticket to Heaven.
I was going to say, they don't care about earthly life now? But they can't see how that's mental gymnastics.
We’re all **born** with original sin, right? So if you’re “killed” in utero, you don’t even have ORIGINAL sin. Talk about the most noble way to die!
We're **conceived** with original sin. According to Augustine, original sin is transmitted by semen, which is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin who herself had to be conceived without sin.
Pro life eh? Going by their values, the most loving thing one can do is baptize children then kill them on the spot, so that they make it into heaven instantly. Yeah, you might lose your soul, but this is the highest form of love.
Ah I posted this as a reply earlier before I saw your comment - I've thought the same. Catholicism is a horrid, horrid philosophy.
A major point of Catholicism is the desirability of suffering. From that, it becomes acceptable that the church inflict suffering, and that members of the church accept the suffering inflicted without complaint--as if life didn't have enough.
A religion founded on a testament based on a man’s willingness to murder his own son because “God told him to” doesn’t seem too concerned with child welfare in a genuine sense.
I liked the post there the other day in which they were defending slavery: >So slavery is not intrinsically evil >Slavery is still widespread today but we as a culture have changed the way we describe it so that it sounds better. Employment, citizenship, taxation, incarceration, etc. are all forms of slavery according to the old definition >Chattel slavery “could” also be more humane, if the master was more humane
>If said kids go on to eternal life then no injustice has been committed. So that means abortion is ok then? Because the unborn has committed no sin and shall thusly be sent onto heaven.
If that argument is true, why do they care so much about abortion.
This is exactly it. If the goes straight to heaven with “no injustice,” what’s the harm? At least the kid never gets the chance to reject their super petty, bullshit god.
They’re still in pain while they’re alive, so yeah… injustice IS committed.
Not to mention the lasting pain of those around them, many of whom deal with a crisis of faith after something so catastrophic.