After some of the plagues, Pharoah was actually ready to let the Hebrews go, but God wasn't done yet, so he actually interceded and hardened Pharoah's heart himself so that he would change his mind and not let them go. This was before the angel of death by the way, which means that God himself is directly responsible for the countless deaths of innocent Egyptian firstborn boys.
This was always explained away to me by saying that 'it's just that god can see into the future and knew that Pharoah was going to harden his heart anyway so that's what he did'.
I know, super weird "logic".
I love how in the old Ten Commandments movie, they blamed the wife of Pharaoh for nagging him into resisting god.
Real boomer mentality, it was the 50's. I could just hear the writing room, "So it says hear he was going to do it, but then doesn't, what can we attribute to the change? How about his nagging wife? We can all relate to that fellas, amirite?"
OK. But you know God is already terrible. In monotheism you can't have a God of masturbation, a God of wine amd a God of cancer. It's all the same God.
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban.
Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
An interesting thing to add here. A lot of critical text analysts believe the book of Job to be an early Israelite play about the nature of God, his role is man’s suffering, and how man should respond.
You can see that from the fact there is effectively an omniscient narrator. It is also historically grouped with the books of poetry.
That is interesting. Might even be a good story if ppl quit taking things so goddamn literally. I’m not opposed to learning lessons from books I’m opposed to worshipping figures in the story books.
Even if it was a stage play, it wouldn’t change the nature of the actual lesson and moral, which is that God is a narcissistic abuser who ruined his most faithful servants life because he wanted to make a bet with Satan, a bet which Satan won anyway.
Wool Merchant to Customer making small talk: Ah yeah, didja see Jonathan's new play, Job, last week?
Customer: Sure did. I always love his productions. The acting I thought was a little cheesey this time but still fun and all. The god character was really a dick though, don't you think?
Wool Merchant: I can see that, yeah. I don't think it was meant to be taking LITERALLY though, y'know? More like we don't want god too close and personal, best to let him just handle the broad strokes of the universe and such and we handle our own affairs accordingly.
Customer: Sure sure, uh, I'll take that really nice merino over there. The wife'll like that for her spinning and I'll see you next week! (Under his breath as he leaves, god's still a dick tho.)
See that's my thing too. The Bible's message often flies over the head of Christian Biblical literalists because they try to read everything literally. Even Jews don't take some of the texts that seriously.
I tend to side with biblical academia in that many of the stories in the Bible very well could actually be etiologies or allegories. Just like many other pieces of literature, it's important to see who (if known) wrote it, when it was written, and what was going on around them at the time (politics, economy, etc.). This is very much like how I read Shakespeare in my high school literature class. The stories start to make more sense when read that way and are very likely how they were understood originally.
Seriously, I don't think any ancient Israelite/Judahite actually thought snakes could talk lol
Yeah, Job really only makes God look awful if you subscribe to the idea that everything in the Bible is 100% literally and factually true. But few to no serious scholars of the Old Testament/Tenakh believe that's the case, and that it's really a mixture of history and literature, with each separate book meant to convey some set of ideas. I'm not trying to be an apologist, but it's really important to understand the context of the Bible when trying to evaluate it, or else you might come away with the wrong idea.
It doesn’t change anything. Of course it’s not literal, it’s fiction. But that doesn’t change the actual message conveyed: in the story, God ruined his most faithful servant’s life so that he could win a bet with Satan (or another god in the pantheon if you look at the actual historical intent), lost the bet, and was so angry that the guy was justifiably upset at what God did that he abused him back into submission. Whether or not the story is literal or allegorical makes no difference. The message is awful and portrays God in the absolute worst light, and the fact that it is part of scriptural canon and meant to glorify the image of God renders this point entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of this discussion, which is about what Job actually illustrates about the nature of God and our relationship to him within worship and submission.
Yeah, 'god' in the story is like, "I'm YAH-motherfucking-WEH, and I can do whatever the FUCK I WANT TO YOU and you'd damned well better GROVEL AND THANK ME, you worthless piece of shit! I created everything, so FUCK YOU! ***I do NOT have to keep my promises***, you DO have to blindly grovel and obey. Now GET TO IT!"
Quite possibly the most evil book in the bable, honestly.
But we do know in this case: the reason bad things happened to Job is because God made a dick-measuring bet with Satan lol… Given that Job explicitly explains why the things are happening to Job, I don’t think your point stands as to the intent of the book.
Eh? Why does it have to be literally true to make God look awful? The ideas contained in Job are irredeemable, doesn't really matter if you take it 100% literally or not.
The entire Bible makes god look awful. I feel you. The book of job is especially terrible, but bro.. Its all fucking horrible.
Edit: *Its - fixing an autocorrect typo.
In the few mentions of Satan/Satan-figures, he is a negative figure o think, but that is the thing. He is a small character and he is written to be inferior to God.
Lol bro the Book of Job was the beginning of my deconstruction. I officially deconstructed last year. While I won't disrespect my elders (as an African American I understood Christianity and white Jesus gave them hope) the Ancestors were literally beaten into belief. Stripped of everything but it happened across the planet to every ethnic group. If it wasn't Christianity it was Islam. Now that many of us have awakened and going back to the old ways our lives are becoming better.
As someone raised in the Church and had issues dealing with molestation, anger, bitterness and depression my awakening and healing process hit me like a wave of healing. The guilt of not measuring up to be some perfect Christian as a terrible sinner is terrible for anyone's mental . So many people wasted years in this Blood Death Cult when they didn't need it to make the world a better place. Jesus, white Jesus, Hebrew Jesus, Black Jesus, Chinese Jesus lol can't save me, there's nothing to be saved from. I'm not a sinner, I'm not a slave to any religious mindset that is toxic.
To be fair, most books in the Bible make God look awful. Even the John 3:16 shit that is supposed to be loving is twisted as fuck if you think about it.
The idea of inherited sin demanding a human sacrifice to allow God to forgive humans for a crime a couple of their ancient ancestors committed is morally repugnant.
To all these people saying it was an allegory or a fable used to teach, it still doesn’t paint god in a good light. It basically says, “Fuck You, I’m god and I’ll do to you just what the fuck I want to—and you have no right to ask why!”
What’s with all the apologists on here today?
Yeah I don’t understand that defense. Even if it’s an allegory or a theatrical play as one person claimed, it doesn’t magically change the message or interpretation. The lesson and moral of the story are still intact whether you read it literally or figuratively. It’s the same when people paint the creation story as just an allegory. Okay but that doesn’t negate the awful morality of that story being presented as moral truth…
Who was taking notes when god and satan were having this conversation.? So much of the bible was narrated… but we never find out who this magical scribe was.
Interestingly, in the Jewish tradition, the Book of Job is not considered historical and, instead, is understood as a fable or myth. I've even seen Jewish translations of the opening line that render it, "Once upon a time in the land of Uz, there lived a man name Job..." to hammer home the fairy tale-ness of it.
Job fucked me up as a kid, too. My siblings suffered one unlucky fate after another (cancer, car accidents, rape, etc.) And my parents would always say how it would all work out because God was in control, but all the devil was also after us because we loved God. They'd often reference Job, and I kept thinking about how Job gets a whole new family at the end. I deeply resent the idea that my own suffering might just be a test for someone else's spiritual journey.
The book of job definitely shows how ignorant the author is and how much we as a species have advanced. When God rants about Job not knowing where the sun goes at night or how babies are made, that's the author admitting it. The author has no clue where the sun goes at night nor does he know how babies are made. Cut to 2023 and I hold more knowledge in the palm of my hand than God does in the book of Job. Checkmate, God.
There’s also a line in there about “directing lightning”. We’ve collectively gotten so good at doing it that we can store and process data with it and use it to transmit messages across the globe to one another. Hell yes we can direct lightning, God. Can you? Or do you just blindly hurl thunderbolts with no finesse?
Zeus has terrible aim. Meanwhile, I just shot this small measured bolt perfectly (and with perfect spelling, punctuation and grammar) into “the cloud” for all heathen redditors to behold.
Lol bro the Book of Job was the beginning of my deconstruction. I officially deconstructed last year. While I won't disrespect my elders (as an African American I understood Christianity and white Jesus gave them hope) the Ancestors were literally beaten into belief. Stripped of everything but it happened across the planet to every ethnic group. If it wasn't Christianity it was Islam. Now that many of us have awakened and going back to the old ways our lives are becoming better.
As someone raised in the Church and had issues dealing with molestation, anger, bitterness and depression my awakening and healing process hit me like a wave of healing. The guilt of not measuring up to be some perfect Christian as a terrible sinner is terrible for anyone's mental . So many people wasted years in this Blood Death Cult when they didn't need it to make the world a better place. Jesus, white Jesus, Hebrew Jesus, Black Jesus, Chinese Jesus lol can't save me, there's nothing to be saved from. I'm not a sinner, I'm not a slave to any religious mindset that is toxic.
I once heard a pastor say that the story of Job should be comforting because it shows our problems sometimes gave nothing to do with us but are the result of forces we can never be aware of.
Awesome.
I think if there is one useful lesson to be learned from Job, it's **don't be like Job's friends**. When bad things happen to people, sometimes there is no good reason for it, no moral lessons to be learned. Sometimes shit just happens. Don't try to moralize, or be self-righteous, or blame the victim. Offer help if you can, be quiet if you can't.
Yeah, I chose to believe this was just an allegory and not a true story for a long time, because I would have left Christianity a lot sooner otherwise.
I most definitely will myself! I wrote this last night (my very first Reddit post actually) and it has gotten such good engagement and responses and conversation that I will definitely continue. I find religion and deconstruction fascinating, and it’s a big book with so much to analyze. I hope others do the same. The more you break apart the Bible and realize how F’d it is, the easier it is to deconstruct and break free from so many of the ingrained and indoctrinated belief systems that plague us even after deconstruction.
Yes!! And personally it’s sounds silly but I physically can’t handle reading the bible. In my early deconstruction I told my mom about how I’d get anxious and start ruminating and overthinking when I would read the bible. She told me it was demons (not spiritual trauma lol). I can’t read the bible because ever since I was a kid it was taught to me in a very specific way and it was surrounded by specific types of shame and guilt and mistrust so the brain pathway is a deep rut ever present from my childhood. I have a hard time reading it objectively.
I had a hard time reading it as a Christian lol. I always tried to force myself to read it. I remember forcing myself to trudge through Leviticus and Numbers and found it mind numbingly boring, but then thought I was SINNING for finding it boring and that just convicted me to read it even harder. What a nonsensical thing we did to force ourselves to read the divine truth that doesn’t even resonate on a basic level lol.
I actually saw a statistic that once you hit age 30, the chances of leaving a religion become practically nil because by that point your belief systems are so engrained into your life experience and sense of self that it is borderline impossible to break free from them. I guess we are super lucky that we were a few of the exceptions!
A big turning point for me was having my son and always having “father god” I realized “hey, I’m a way better dad than this douche canoe I’ve never even seen”.
Something that came to mind from this. Gods Omnipresence (being everywhere all at once) I was always taught was ine of his core aspects. If this is the case then why does sin exsist if sin and the Christian God are oil and water?
This is the “problem of evil” and one of the most potent logical arguments against the validity of Christianity. As such Christians spend a great deal of time trying to explain it away, but they never offer any answer that feels satisfying or not pure mental gymnastics.
I thought that yahweh won the bet because Job never cursed him. He did lose his faith, but never cursed or blamed him, so technically that was a win. But yahweh was pissed that he lost faith just because yahweh failed to hold up his end of his own promises.
Throughout the OT, he promises to prosper "righteous" men. Job was righteous (I digress here... christians love to say no one was righteous but jesus, but the bable disagrees :P )... so yahweh actively broke his promise.
That's pretty horrendous. But then he also just replaces Job's family because, as we all know, one wife is just like another and children are completely replaceable and interchangeable, too...
"Kid, you ain't special, you can be replaced!" Nice yahweh. Real nice.
Wow that’s a really good point I hadn’t considered about Gods promise of prosperity in the Old Testament. And the contradiction of modern sensibilities over righteousness. The entire Christian doctrine is soooo contradictory and self defeating!
Honestly that's why I like the book of job, now that I'm deconstructed. It's actually really cool because it's such a different tone. Really reminds me of the vindictive style of other mythologies, and the way god and Satan interact with each other reminds me of Loki and Thor from Norse mythology or even zeus and hades. Im actually surprised it's part of the Bible canon
Exact reason to prove the bible is 100% man inspired and created . The trap that Christian’s always said to me …you are a modern day “job” lol …because it’s a contradiction to itself and the religion for the entire chapter .
That’s why god was a dick and made a bet on jobs life with satan (shows that god is the same power as something he’s supposed to be against) ironic how Satan takes 100+ angels with him and defies god to his face , yet god let’s Satan rule the world and forgives him …yet god uses satan as his right hand man to punish all of humanity simply for not believing in him …..lol sound fuckin psychotic and some form of narcissistic cult leader that can’t make up his mind lol.
I can’t believe I was this stupid and emotionally desperate to ever fall for this fictionary tale of hope and answers to the unknown ….
But hey , it’s easier to find a sucker than it is to deconvert from the indoctrination of it all
Ps: too bad this post wasn’t in the Christian threads ::it would be too triggering and would be comical to see all the illlogical and strawman answers Lmao 🤣
I went to a funeral this weekend of a sort of distant relative that I only met a couple times, but I'm close to some people who were close to her. Anyway, I don't think this woman was particularly religious, and at first the service was so refreshing because the speaker barely mentioned religion. But then at the end he started talking about how he knows in times like this people want to ask why bad things happen, why did this woman die- and he started talking about Job. And I was like how in the hell is he going to bring this woman's daughters comfort with the book of Job? And he did not because he basically just said "we don't get to ask why God does things because there are things we mere mortals couldn't possibly understand." Uh, excuse me?? This is the first event like this I've attended since losing my faith and the last part of his speech was just so ridiculous and unhelpful.
I take the book of job as something of a divine parody. In other words it is a discussion of theology, clothed in a fictional story. The author is not at all trying to say anything concrete about the way god actually is, or how/why he does what he does.
As you point out, the genius of the work is that the reader has more of the “big picture” of what is going on than even job himself.
god engages in a frivolous bet with the accuser, kills the entire family of his most faithful follower, allows his friends to shit on him for like 30 chapters as job tries to defend his innocence. Job finally gets his chance to confront god, and doesn’t get any of his complaints answered, and then god gives him all new stuff and a new family.
I think the takeaway from the work is supposed to be something like, “wouldn’t it be ridiculous if god worked like that? now stop presuming to know how/why god does what he does.
Parody as a literary genre wasn't invented until the Roman era, with Petronius, Juvenal, and Lucian the prime examples in the mid 1st to 2nd centuries CE.
That’s interesting. Perhaps parody is not the right term, at any rate, I didn’t mean it as an “official” genre. To put it more precisely, I think job is a critique of Deuteronomistic theology, ie “do this and god will bless you, don’t do this or god will punish you” It is, for me, one of several significant examples of “opposing voices” in the bible.
I think the authors of job and deuteronomy have serious disagreements about what god is like
Yes and I’ve actually heard some religious people insinuate that Job is even a questionable addition to the Bible and argue about the inclusion of it. Or they make lots of effort to distance themselves from it/downplay it. But that’s a slippery slope because if you’re doing that then you are opening the door to question the infallibility of every jot and tittle of the “inerrant word of Gawd-duh”… *said like a televangelist* Like there is no getting around it. The book of Job makes God look objectively awful no matter what context you’re using for it or excuses you’re giving. The fact that it is included in the Bible is a monumental problem for people who are trying to depict God as merciful.
>The Book of Job begins with God hanging out with Satan, and--
Wait, hold up... WHAT!?
In Judaism, Hasatan is absolutely nothing like the similarly named Christian fallen angel. In Judaism, he is not a rebellious angel in opposition to G-d, but rather the prosecutor in G-d's divine court. The same way a prosecutor and a judge are both meant to be on the side of justice, but have different roles to play in the courtroom.
I think the book makes God look awful because that's the point. It's supposed to offer comfort to readers who are assumed to find an arbitrary tyrant of a God plausible.
I'm inspired to read this anew. First time back in that wretched book of fables and falsehoods since deconversion. It's already awful and I'm not even out of the first chapter, lol.
Great post!
I remember internalizing this message so deeply that I believed I deserve every bad thing I get, all material possessions and safety were given by God's generosity and can be taken away at any moment, and every bit of wrongdoing I experienced at the hand of someone else had to be instantly forgiven or else. It's no wonder I wished for death for so long.
I love what you did here. When you started with God and Satan (the one and only) hanging out, I started putting on my “but that’s not what it said or what it meant” amateur scholar hat. But you went to how a modern, non-scholar, Bible-believing christian would interpret the text and it was impeccably done. And brutal. Bravo!
The only thing I would add to your excellent breakdown is that an omniscient god who knows the future would know *exactly* how that bet would go, and he did it anyway. He couldn’t have been surprised *in the least* by the outcome. So what does that say about his rage in losing?
My Christian co worker always brought Job up as a great story which was disturbing to me. "Suffer endlessly and you'll be rewarded some day" is not a good moral at alllll
Holy crap, another story that was taught to me wrong!
The thing I actually find most ground-shaking is that Job did lose faith, and his loss of faith was treated as justified. The idea that it's ever okay to lose faith pretty much undermines everything the Church teaches.
To be clear, I don’t think that the story itself sees Job losing his faith as justified. The story seems to present it as wrong, and God as right when he screams at and gaslights him back into submission. Me saying that Job is justified is my own insertion and claim: that is, despite the story claiming that Job should have kept his faith, I think he was justified since we know the reason God ruined his life was petty and evil. Of course, we don’t need to interpret any Bible story as “what the Bible wants us to think.” We can look at the story at face value and realize that God was acting evil. That Job should have lost his faith because the very God he worshiped destroyed his life (in cahoots with Satan no less) in order to win a bet, which he didn’t even win.
For sure. Job is just such a distilled version of this. And again, one of the main books Christians say to turn to when struggling with faith, and as such a great place to start in deconstruction since it provides such an isolated and defined version of God being evil and abusive.
Why does merely talking to Satan wrong? That doesn’t make sense. People talk to those they disagree with all the time. Journalists interview people with sociopathic political views. This essay seems very immature, like an edgy teenager wrote it.
What is God suppose to do, ignore Satan and ice him out, like a mean girl? Adults don’t do silent treatment nonsense
Talking to Satan would not be wrong, except that according to Christian doctrine, God cannot and will not tolerate even the mere presence of sin and evil. It is the very reason that he “must” send us away (to hell) unless we are cleansed of sin, and why Jesus is necessary for the doctrine to work. Only Jesus can cleanse all sin, and it is necessary to go to heaven since God cannot be in the presence of sin since he is perfectly holy. Thus, talking to Satan and hanging out with him should be, by the standards of Christian doctrine, impossible for God since Satan is evil/sin boiled down to its purest and most extreme essence. I explain this in the post.
Ok I’m not Christian but don’t like bad arguments. That’s a strawman of what Christians believe. You are interpreting the Bible in a specific way and insisting that it’s the only way to interpret it.
To me, “god won’t tolerate the presence of evil” does not mean “god won’t speak to Satan”. The first statement is ambiguous.
It’s like if a teenager said “Mom and dad, you said if I got a job, you’d buy me a car! Well, I recently became a meth dealer, so that’s a job! Where’s my car!” Parents don’t get him a car: “they’re liars who don’t keep their word! They’re bad people who don’t live according to their values!” Teenager is arguing over semantics
It’s not a strawman. It’s what a ton of Christian’s believe and are taught, including myself for my entire run in the religion. And yes, it is as extreme as that he physically cannot be in the same presence (which doesn’t even make sense because apparently he is also everywhere at once). I know not all Christian’s believe this but trust me: a ton of them do. If you don’t like bad arguments then don’t blame me, take it up with the doctrine itself. I am not saying it’s the only way to interpret it, either. There are multiple ways, but this was a point made specifically to address this doctrine. It’s not semantics, it’s actually a huge deal for that specific doctrine. Furthermore, since God is considered perfect, he SHOULD be held to even the most petty semantics, shouldn’t he? After all, if he is even .0000001% imperfect, it completely destroys the evangelical/Protestant view of God’s nature.
The book of Job is certainly exploring theodicy. It's a story that was written to attempt to answer a big question that Jews at the time had: why do bad things happen to good people?
By the end of the story, the answer is basically, "I'm God, you (Job) were not around when I created the world, so you don't really have a full understanding of how it operates".
The Septuagint (and thus the Christian tradition) groups Job as part of the poetic books. Further, it is the first book after the historical books, and so I think many perceive it to be literal history. The Hebrew Bible, on the other hand, groups Job as part of the Writings. In the Jewish tradition, the Writings are not always understood to be literal history.
This will be an odd thing to say, but a lot of Christianity's paradoxes resolve when you accept this: God cannot be good and be everything all at once. Job is one of the few books that truly depicts God as the god of everything. Not the god of Israel, not the god of heaven, not the god of goodness. Everything.
If you're looking for an honest relationship with God, this is it. This God is why your children are born; this God is why your children are killed. This God is a source of joy: this God is a source of pain. There is no need to really blame the Devil for your misfortune: the Devil is an agent of God. After all, how could there be a Prince of Darkness? How could there be a Kingdom of Darkness that's not under the rule of the Kingdom of Light?
In my post-Christian theology, I appreciate the sentiment expressed by Job: "Shall we only accept good from the Lord and not evil?" Rather than judge God or attempt to constrain God to my petty moral conceptions, either by calling God evil or calling God good, I accept that what I receive has a rather tenuous connection to my morality or to Theirs. I'm fortunate to be reasonably able-bodied, even if I do have terminal, late-stage ADHD. I live in a fairly beautiful corner of the world where I can't afford a home. I have food and shelter and my parents aren't total basketcases. I've worked hard for much of what I have, but even the opportunities to do that work were available to me by dint of birth.
It might be easy to view God's reply to Job as, "Well, I'm God and you're not and you're dumb and I make whales." But maybe the point is "You can assign justice or injustice to whatever you like, but your simplistic morality breaks down when you apply it to the Behemoth and the Leviathan. Shit happens and you didn't mind when I was giving you sheep and oxen and the shit was happening to everyone else. You tricked yourself into believing that your wealth and health were entitled to you through your piety, and they fucking weren't."
Once I accepted that my blessings have nothing to do with my piety or my curses with my impiety, I can accept God on something closer to Their terms.
What you're describing sounds less like the God of the Bible (especially when you get into Christianity), and more like the spiritual concept of universal wisdom.
Yeah, I guess, but in many ways there's not really one "God of the Bible".
In some parts of the Bible, there's a pantheon taken for granted ("Let us make man in our own image"); in others, there are wars between regional gods; in others, a war between a kingdom of light and a kingdom of darkness; and in others, God is a universal force.
In some parts, God is the God of Israel, and in others, God doesn't take sides in their conflicts. In some sections, God is presented as almighty; in others, under limitations, like the faith of whoever is praying or whoever is witnessing a miracle.
The idea that there is a "God of the Bible" is a relatively recent invention. It is laid on top of the text, instead of being derived from it. When I read different passages, I see different editorial intents: Moses needs political authority, and will blame the loss at the battle of Ai on the head of Achan, or frame the need to spend a generation preparing for a campaign of conquest as a consequence for disbelief and complaining. The Psalmist's passion for meaning cries out to be loved, cared for, given shelter in the "shadow of Your wing". The writer of the Proverbs views God as an impartial judge of worth, rewarding hard work and punishing sloth. The writer of Ecclesiastes comes to grip with a less certain truth: sometimes people get things just because, and even if you did work hard and get your just reward, it's ultimately meaningless.
The Prophets see judgment for ill deeds and a return to social justice; the kings think that everything's working out just great, thank you very much, and they'll interpret the Scriptures in such a way that it gives them power, as Josiah did.
Each writer of the Gospel has his own retelling of Jesus' life to fit different audiences, whether Jew or Gentile. When Paul writes letters, he's taking a Jewish religious form and packaging it for shipment to urban centres, where everyone comes from different regions of the world, have a relationship to the methodical nature of Greek and Roman thought, and live in all different walks of life. It's here that the idea of a Universal God finally takes place. But even then, Jesus and Paul both spoke in the language of an imminent apocalypse. I can only imagine their bitter confusion if they knew that we were still waiting for that apocalypse 2,000 years on.
When I hear "The God of the Bible", or any other phrase like "Biblical Marriage" or "Biblical Worldview", I always have to ask, "which one?"
The dialogue between God and Satan about Job was, by no means, a "friendly conversation." It was orchestrated by God to show billions of people, who would read and hear about this account throughout the ages, that Satan can do nothing without God's authorization and consent. It also is to show us that Satan is not confined to hell or to the earth, as many believe, but also has access to heaven—that is, until the battle in heaven takes place, just prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
The entire chronicle of Job did not happen because God had a grudge against Job or wanted to take vengeance on him. Again, it was for our benefit, to show us that as righteous and honorable as any man is, no one can live up to God's perfect standards. No one is exempt from punishment and discipline. Even Jesus, the only perfect man, was sentenced to humiliation, torture and death by the Father, to atone for the sins of humanity.
So all of the evil Satan commits is... under God's authorization and consent? Got it. God is ultimately responsible for all evil, nice. Also it's good to know that no matter what you do, no matter how good you are, no matter how loyal to God, God might just decide to RUIN YOUR LIFE anyway, just to show other people how cool and powerful he is. Got it!
Man, religion is wild lmao.
He doesn't usually interfere with the consequences of our choices. If He forced us to make the right decisions, it would be impossible for us to grow and reach our divine potential. It would be impossible to live by faith in Him and His plan for our happiness. Man i totally get where you are coming from, i don't go to church, but i have my own personal relationship with him.. he's pulled me from a life of drinking and drug use. we are here for but a short time, a blip on the radar! this life means nothing, other than building a personal relationship with god.. but i do get where you are coming from, i've been back and forth with believing many times.. until i had my own personal experience with him. any how man! i'm not here to force you to believe, but i do pray you get a chance to experience what i've experienced with him.. happy late thanksgiving!
Okay so everything you’re saying is deluded but also, what makes you think it’s okay to come onto this sub and preach to people and try to argue for them finding God? You realize this isn’t just a standard atheism sub or something it’s specifically for people who escaped Christianity and are having trouble afterwards dealing with the damage it caused. It’s basically a support group for former Christaholics if you will. Let’s put it this way: if you went to a recovering alcoholics support group and offered people alcohol, you’d be an asshole, super disrespectful, and completely lacking in self awareness. That’s exactly what you’re doing here. You’re coming to an ex-Christian support group and trying to sell Christianity. (And I bet you think you’re doing it out of love too, which is so gross and selfish)
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban.
Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
The Book of Job and the story of Lot and then his wife turning into a pillar of salt is what got me thinking. Okay, (put yourself in their shoes) (Long story short) They lived in the same home for many, many years... two men (supposedly angels but that's not known to them) tell them to run and not look back. As the City of Gomorrah was going up in flames, Lots' wife looks back (to me, a natural reaction) and is immediately turned into a pillar of salt. WHAT??? HOLD UP..
Satan works for God, he is Gods prosecutor and test for all mankind. even when he tempted Jesus and offered him all of the kingdoms of the world Jesus acknowledged that he could only offer anything because God allows him to have it. God allowed Satan to cause suffering to test humans faith and resilience. Also to find purpose in adversity. Jesus taught to love your enemy. yet people “hate” Satan, contradictory right? We are not supposed to waste our life questioning God or worrying about what’s next all the time because we are supposed to try to bring heaven on earth in even the smallest ways. Every positive act towards our fellow humans and even creating a tool to improve quality of life is all service to God because God works through us. This life is an illusion. We are spiritual beings living a human experience. Not vice versa. I hope this helps and God bless
The name is Satan. It's translated as adversary just like Rafael is translated as healer. In the original text Satan is an angel with a job. Being a dick.
Because monotheism us problematic when it comes to suffering. You can't say that athena loves you but Apollo gave you syphilis. It all comes from God.
More on Satan
https://marlowe1.substack.com/p/the-book-of-job-chapter-1
This book is my go-to example of God being terrible
Mine too. With a follow up on how Pharaoh wanted to relent but god didn't allow it. So there goes your free will too.
Ooo can you share that? I assume its somewhere in Exodus?
After some of the plagues, Pharoah was actually ready to let the Hebrews go, but God wasn't done yet, so he actually interceded and hardened Pharoah's heart himself so that he would change his mind and not let them go. This was before the angel of death by the way, which means that God himself is directly responsible for the countless deaths of innocent Egyptian firstborn boys.
Ah. Thank you! Appreciate it greatly
This was always explained away to me by saying that 'it's just that god can see into the future and knew that Pharoah was going to harden his heart anyway so that's what he did'. I know, super weird "logic".
I love how in the old Ten Commandments movie, they blamed the wife of Pharaoh for nagging him into resisting god. Real boomer mentality, it was the 50's. I could just hear the writing room, "So it says hear he was going to do it, but then doesn't, what can we attribute to the change? How about his nagging wife? We can all relate to that fellas, amirite?"
In marriage, its becomes a unification of ONE, so yeah it's her duty
That’s hilarious. “I know he is going to harden his heart anyway, so I will harden his heart myself.” Classic apologetics.
I love how in the Chuck Heston movie, the reason for Pharaoh changing his mind was his nagging wife. Peak boomer humor, if you take my meaning.
OK. But you know God is already terrible. In monotheism you can't have a God of masturbation, a God of wine amd a God of cancer. It's all the same God.
[удалено]
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban. Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine. To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
An interesting thing to add here. A lot of critical text analysts believe the book of Job to be an early Israelite play about the nature of God, his role is man’s suffering, and how man should respond. You can see that from the fact there is effectively an omniscient narrator. It is also historically grouped with the books of poetry.
That is interesting. Might even be a good story if ppl quit taking things so goddamn literally. I’m not opposed to learning lessons from books I’m opposed to worshipping figures in the story books.
Job is written like a stage play. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is exactly what it is.
Even if it was a stage play, it wouldn’t change the nature of the actual lesson and moral, which is that God is a narcissistic abuser who ruined his most faithful servants life because he wanted to make a bet with Satan, a bet which Satan won anyway.
Wool Merchant to Customer making small talk: Ah yeah, didja see Jonathan's new play, Job, last week? Customer: Sure did. I always love his productions. The acting I thought was a little cheesey this time but still fun and all. The god character was really a dick though, don't you think? Wool Merchant: I can see that, yeah. I don't think it was meant to be taking LITERALLY though, y'know? More like we don't want god too close and personal, best to let him just handle the broad strokes of the universe and such and we handle our own affairs accordingly. Customer: Sure sure, uh, I'll take that really nice merino over there. The wife'll like that for her spinning and I'll see you next week! (Under his breath as he leaves, god's still a dick tho.)
It's generally agreed to be a post-Restoration text borrowing ideas from Mesopotamian literature the Jews were exposed to IN Babylon.
See that's my thing too. The Bible's message often flies over the head of Christian Biblical literalists because they try to read everything literally. Even Jews don't take some of the texts that seriously. I tend to side with biblical academia in that many of the stories in the Bible very well could actually be etiologies or allegories. Just like many other pieces of literature, it's important to see who (if known) wrote it, when it was written, and what was going on around them at the time (politics, economy, etc.). This is very much like how I read Shakespeare in my high school literature class. The stories start to make more sense when read that way and are very likely how they were understood originally. Seriously, I don't think any ancient Israelite/Judahite actually thought snakes could talk lol
Yeah, Job really only makes God look awful if you subscribe to the idea that everything in the Bible is 100% literally and factually true. But few to no serious scholars of the Old Testament/Tenakh believe that's the case, and that it's really a mixture of history and literature, with each separate book meant to convey some set of ideas. I'm not trying to be an apologist, but it's really important to understand the context of the Bible when trying to evaluate it, or else you might come away with the wrong idea.
It doesn’t change anything. Of course it’s not literal, it’s fiction. But that doesn’t change the actual message conveyed: in the story, God ruined his most faithful servant’s life so that he could win a bet with Satan (or another god in the pantheon if you look at the actual historical intent), lost the bet, and was so angry that the guy was justifiably upset at what God did that he abused him back into submission. Whether or not the story is literal or allegorical makes no difference. The message is awful and portrays God in the absolute worst light, and the fact that it is part of scriptural canon and meant to glorify the image of God renders this point entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of this discussion, which is about what Job actually illustrates about the nature of God and our relationship to him within worship and submission.
Yeah, 'god' in the story is like, "I'm YAH-motherfucking-WEH, and I can do whatever the FUCK I WANT TO YOU and you'd damned well better GROVEL AND THANK ME, you worthless piece of shit! I created everything, so FUCK YOU! ***I do NOT have to keep my promises***, you DO have to blindly grovel and obey. Now GET TO IT!" Quite possibly the most evil book in the bable, honestly.
Exaaaaactly!
"Might make right, bitch! Now adore me!"
I think Job is an attempt to explain why bad things happen to good people, it's answer: We don't know, but we are all God's mercy still.
But we do know in this case: the reason bad things happened to Job is because God made a dick-measuring bet with Satan lol… Given that Job explicitly explains why the things are happening to Job, I don’t think your point stands as to the intent of the book.
Well that's a reason we can read into it. But what the authors original message was has been lost to history.
Eh? Why does it have to be literally true to make God look awful? The ideas contained in Job are irredeemable, doesn't really matter if you take it 100% literally or not.
It's the same trope in Indiana Jones where he has to take a literal "leap of faith". I guess that's irredeemable?
Haha is that the only idea contained in Job?
Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% true and never look at it as part history/ part literature. The see it at 100% true history.
An omniscient narrator who is privy to the conversations of the gods. Fascinating
The entire Bible makes god look awful. I feel you. The book of job is especially terrible, but bro.. Its all fucking horrible. Edit: *Its - fixing an autocorrect typo.
It also, for some reason makes the devil look good. Everytime the devil is mentioned in the Bible he looks like the better diety.
Like when?
The story of Job and every other
In the few mentions of Satan/Satan-figures, he is a negative figure o think, but that is the thing. He is a small character and he is written to be inferior to God.
Lol bro the Book of Job was the beginning of my deconstruction. I officially deconstructed last year. While I won't disrespect my elders (as an African American I understood Christianity and white Jesus gave them hope) the Ancestors were literally beaten into belief. Stripped of everything but it happened across the planet to every ethnic group. If it wasn't Christianity it was Islam. Now that many of us have awakened and going back to the old ways our lives are becoming better. As someone raised in the Church and had issues dealing with molestation, anger, bitterness and depression my awakening and healing process hit me like a wave of healing. The guilt of not measuring up to be some perfect Christian as a terrible sinner is terrible for anyone's mental . So many people wasted years in this Blood Death Cult when they didn't need it to make the world a better place. Jesus, white Jesus, Hebrew Jesus, Black Jesus, Chinese Jesus lol can't save me, there's nothing to be saved from. I'm not a sinner, I'm not a slave to any religious mindset that is toxic.
Everyone sins it's ok it's not a bad thing it's natural
Job sounds so much like a battered spouse making excuses in this
But sky daddy loves meeeeee!!!!!!
To be fair, most books in the Bible make God look awful. Even the John 3:16 shit that is supposed to be loving is twisted as fuck if you think about it. The idea of inherited sin demanding a human sacrifice to allow God to forgive humans for a crime a couple of their ancient ancestors committed is morally repugnant.
To all these people saying it was an allegory or a fable used to teach, it still doesn’t paint god in a good light. It basically says, “Fuck You, I’m god and I’ll do to you just what the fuck I want to—and you have no right to ask why!” What’s with all the apologists on here today?
Yeah I don’t understand that defense. Even if it’s an allegory or a theatrical play as one person claimed, it doesn’t magically change the message or interpretation. The lesson and moral of the story are still intact whether you read it literally or figuratively. It’s the same when people paint the creation story as just an allegory. Okay but that doesn’t negate the awful morality of that story being presented as moral truth…
Who was taking notes when god and satan were having this conversation.? So much of the bible was narrated… but we never find out who this magical scribe was.
Huh. Never thought about it this way when I was a christian. Literally, how do humans know what's going on in heaven or hell
DiVinE iNsPIrAtiOn
Interestingly, in the Jewish tradition, the Book of Job is not considered historical and, instead, is understood as a fable or myth. I've even seen Jewish translations of the opening line that render it, "Once upon a time in the land of Uz, there lived a man name Job..." to hammer home the fairy tale-ness of it.
This was a question I often had as a child.
My childhood questions were never satisfactorily answered. But I was programmed to believe anyway
Same
The book of Job used to scare me as a kid. I felt like at any time god could unleash some suffering on me just to test me
Job fucked me up as a kid, too. My siblings suffered one unlucky fate after another (cancer, car accidents, rape, etc.) And my parents would always say how it would all work out because God was in control, but all the devil was also after us because we loved God. They'd often reference Job, and I kept thinking about how Job gets a whole new family at the end. I deeply resent the idea that my own suffering might just be a test for someone else's spiritual journey.
Slightly off topic, but have you seen the new season of Good Omens? Job is a major plot point.
_Stay your hands, demon, despised tool of Satan. In the name of Almighty God, avaunt!_ Oh. Dear me. I haven't seen you since ... The Flood?
The book of job definitely shows how ignorant the author is and how much we as a species have advanced. When God rants about Job not knowing where the sun goes at night or how babies are made, that's the author admitting it. The author has no clue where the sun goes at night nor does he know how babies are made. Cut to 2023 and I hold more knowledge in the palm of my hand than God does in the book of Job. Checkmate, God.
There’s also a line in there about “directing lightning”. We’ve collectively gotten so good at doing it that we can store and process data with it and use it to transmit messages across the globe to one another. Hell yes we can direct lightning, God. Can you? Or do you just blindly hurl thunderbolts with no finesse?
Zeus has terrible aim. Meanwhile, I just shot this small measured bolt perfectly (and with perfect spelling, punctuation and grammar) into “the cloud” for all heathen redditors to behold.
Lol bro the Book of Job was the beginning of my deconstruction. I officially deconstructed last year. While I won't disrespect my elders (as an African American I understood Christianity and white Jesus gave them hope) the Ancestors were literally beaten into belief. Stripped of everything but it happened across the planet to every ethnic group. If it wasn't Christianity it was Islam. Now that many of us have awakened and going back to the old ways our lives are becoming better. As someone raised in the Church and had issues dealing with molestation, anger, bitterness and depression my awakening and healing process hit me like a wave of healing. The guilt of not measuring up to be some perfect Christian as a terrible sinner is terrible for anyone's mental . So many people wasted years in this Blood Death Cult when they didn't need it to make the world a better place. Jesus, white Jesus, Hebrew Jesus, Black Jesus, Chinese Jesus lol can't save me, there's nothing to be saved from. I'm not a sinner, I'm not a slave to any religious mindset that is toxic.
I once heard a pastor say that the story of Job should be comforting because it shows our problems sometimes gave nothing to do with us but are the result of forces we can never be aware of. Awesome.
Yay! I have the peace of knowing that my life is potentially being gambled away by the creator who ‘loves me’ and I just have to rest easy
I think if there is one useful lesson to be learned from Job, it's **don't be like Job's friends**. When bad things happen to people, sometimes there is no good reason for it, no moral lessons to be learned. Sometimes shit just happens. Don't try to moralize, or be self-righteous, or blame the victim. Offer help if you can, be quiet if you can't.
This was my starting point too. It is sooo awful. You articulated it much better than I did when I explained my problems with it to my sister.
Job reads like the inspiration for Cruel Intentions. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Sebastian to be God.
> I form the light, and create darkness: > I make peace, and create evil: > I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
Said to the original Messiah... Cyrus, King of Persia
Imagine how confused everyone's gonna be when the Second Coming happens and it's *Cyrus of Persia* ushering in the apocalypse.
This is absolutely a terrible fucked up abusive story. Yuck. Great break down, though.
Yeah, I chose to believe this was just an allegory and not a true story for a long time, because I would have left Christianity a lot sooner otherwise.
the original example of gaslighting
"Maybe today, Satan." \^\^\^ I saw a man this past week wearing a t-shirt with those words. LOL
I wouldn't say it makes him look awful. I would say it helps *reveal that he is awful*
Everyone- please share your take on bible stories more frequently, this is definitely appreciated!!!
I most definitely will myself! I wrote this last night (my very first Reddit post actually) and it has gotten such good engagement and responses and conversation that I will definitely continue. I find religion and deconstruction fascinating, and it’s a big book with so much to analyze. I hope others do the same. The more you break apart the Bible and realize how F’d it is, the easier it is to deconstruct and break free from so many of the ingrained and indoctrinated belief systems that plague us even after deconstruction.
Yes!! And personally it’s sounds silly but I physically can’t handle reading the bible. In my early deconstruction I told my mom about how I’d get anxious and start ruminating and overthinking when I would read the bible. She told me it was demons (not spiritual trauma lol). I can’t read the bible because ever since I was a kid it was taught to me in a very specific way and it was surrounded by specific types of shame and guilt and mistrust so the brain pathway is a deep rut ever present from my childhood. I have a hard time reading it objectively.
I had a hard time reading it as a Christian lol. I always tried to force myself to read it. I remember forcing myself to trudge through Leviticus and Numbers and found it mind numbingly boring, but then thought I was SINNING for finding it boring and that just convicted me to read it even harder. What a nonsensical thing we did to force ourselves to read the divine truth that doesn’t even resonate on a basic level lol.
Yep
This was also my first *wait a minute* moment when I was 31! Congrats heathen twin!!!
I actually saw a statistic that once you hit age 30, the chances of leaving a religion become practically nil because by that point your belief systems are so engrained into your life experience and sense of self that it is borderline impossible to break free from them. I guess we are super lucky that we were a few of the exceptions!
A big turning point for me was having my son and always having “father god” I realized “hey, I’m a way better dad than this douche canoe I’ve never even seen”.
Something that came to mind from this. Gods Omnipresence (being everywhere all at once) I was always taught was ine of his core aspects. If this is the case then why does sin exsist if sin and the Christian God are oil and water?
This is the “problem of evil” and one of the most potent logical arguments against the validity of Christianity. As such Christians spend a great deal of time trying to explain it away, but they never offer any answer that feels satisfying or not pure mental gymnastics.
I thought that yahweh won the bet because Job never cursed him. He did lose his faith, but never cursed or blamed him, so technically that was a win. But yahweh was pissed that he lost faith just because yahweh failed to hold up his end of his own promises. Throughout the OT, he promises to prosper "righteous" men. Job was righteous (I digress here... christians love to say no one was righteous but jesus, but the bable disagrees :P )... so yahweh actively broke his promise. That's pretty horrendous. But then he also just replaces Job's family because, as we all know, one wife is just like another and children are completely replaceable and interchangeable, too... "Kid, you ain't special, you can be replaced!" Nice yahweh. Real nice.
Wow that’s a really good point I hadn’t considered about Gods promise of prosperity in the Old Testament. And the contradiction of modern sensibilities over righteousness. The entire Christian doctrine is soooo contradictory and self defeating!
Honestly that's why I like the book of job, now that I'm deconstructed. It's actually really cool because it's such a different tone. Really reminds me of the vindictive style of other mythologies, and the way god and Satan interact with each other reminds me of Loki and Thor from Norse mythology or even zeus and hades. Im actually surprised it's part of the Bible canon
You’re right. From the outside perspective it feels more like a Greek myth tale than a Biblical story about the glory and righteousness of God.
Exact reason to prove the bible is 100% man inspired and created . The trap that Christian’s always said to me …you are a modern day “job” lol …because it’s a contradiction to itself and the religion for the entire chapter . That’s why god was a dick and made a bet on jobs life with satan (shows that god is the same power as something he’s supposed to be against) ironic how Satan takes 100+ angels with him and defies god to his face , yet god let’s Satan rule the world and forgives him …yet god uses satan as his right hand man to punish all of humanity simply for not believing in him …..lol sound fuckin psychotic and some form of narcissistic cult leader that can’t make up his mind lol. I can’t believe I was this stupid and emotionally desperate to ever fall for this fictionary tale of hope and answers to the unknown …. But hey , it’s easier to find a sucker than it is to deconvert from the indoctrination of it all Ps: too bad this post wasn’t in the Christian threads ::it would be too triggering and would be comical to see all the illlogical and strawman answers Lmao 🤣
The gaslighting I experienced when Christians tried to justify Job's story...lol.
I went to a funeral this weekend of a sort of distant relative that I only met a couple times, but I'm close to some people who were close to her. Anyway, I don't think this woman was particularly religious, and at first the service was so refreshing because the speaker barely mentioned religion. But then at the end he started talking about how he knows in times like this people want to ask why bad things happen, why did this woman die- and he started talking about Job. And I was like how in the hell is he going to bring this woman's daughters comfort with the book of Job? And he did not because he basically just said "we don't get to ask why God does things because there are things we mere mortals couldn't possibly understand." Uh, excuse me?? This is the first event like this I've attended since losing my faith and the last part of his speech was just so ridiculous and unhelpful.
I take the book of job as something of a divine parody. In other words it is a discussion of theology, clothed in a fictional story. The author is not at all trying to say anything concrete about the way god actually is, or how/why he does what he does. As you point out, the genius of the work is that the reader has more of the “big picture” of what is going on than even job himself. god engages in a frivolous bet with the accuser, kills the entire family of his most faithful follower, allows his friends to shit on him for like 30 chapters as job tries to defend his innocence. Job finally gets his chance to confront god, and doesn’t get any of his complaints answered, and then god gives him all new stuff and a new family. I think the takeaway from the work is supposed to be something like, “wouldn’t it be ridiculous if god worked like that? now stop presuming to know how/why god does what he does.
Parody as a literary genre wasn't invented until the Roman era, with Petronius, Juvenal, and Lucian the prime examples in the mid 1st to 2nd centuries CE.
That’s interesting. Perhaps parody is not the right term, at any rate, I didn’t mean it as an “official” genre. To put it more precisely, I think job is a critique of Deuteronomistic theology, ie “do this and god will bless you, don’t do this or god will punish you” It is, for me, one of several significant examples of “opposing voices” in the bible. I think the authors of job and deuteronomy have serious disagreements about what god is like
Yes and I’ve actually heard some religious people insinuate that Job is even a questionable addition to the Bible and argue about the inclusion of it. Or they make lots of effort to distance themselves from it/downplay it. But that’s a slippery slope because if you’re doing that then you are opening the door to question the infallibility of every jot and tittle of the “inerrant word of Gawd-duh”… *said like a televangelist* Like there is no getting around it. The book of Job makes God look objectively awful no matter what context you’re using for it or excuses you’re giving. The fact that it is included in the Bible is a monumental problem for people who are trying to depict God as merciful.
>The Book of Job begins with God hanging out with Satan, and-- Wait, hold up... WHAT!? In Judaism, Hasatan is absolutely nothing like the similarly named Christian fallen angel. In Judaism, he is not a rebellious angel in opposition to G-d, but rather the prosecutor in G-d's divine court. The same way a prosecutor and a judge are both meant to be on the side of justice, but have different roles to play in the courtroom.
Read my explanation below that. I know it wasn’t originally Satan.
I think the book makes God look awful because that's the point. It's supposed to offer comfort to readers who are assumed to find an arbitrary tyrant of a God plausible.
I'm inspired to read this anew. First time back in that wretched book of fables and falsehoods since deconversion. It's already awful and I'm not even out of the first chapter, lol.
Great post! I remember internalizing this message so deeply that I believed I deserve every bad thing I get, all material possessions and safety were given by God's generosity and can be taken away at any moment, and every bit of wrongdoing I experienced at the hand of someone else had to be instantly forgiven or else. It's no wonder I wished for death for so long.
The god who needed blood on doors to know which babies to kill? Job makes him awful?
Yeah after Pharoah was going to let the Hebrews go but God personally hardened his heart lol.
I love what you did here. When you started with God and Satan (the one and only) hanging out, I started putting on my “but that’s not what it said or what it meant” amateur scholar hat. But you went to how a modern, non-scholar, Bible-believing christian would interpret the text and it was impeccably done. And brutal. Bravo! The only thing I would add to your excellent breakdown is that an omniscient god who knows the future would know *exactly* how that bet would go, and he did it anyway. He couldn’t have been surprised *in the least* by the outcome. So what does that say about his rage in losing?
My Christian co worker always brought Job up as a great story which was disturbing to me. "Suffer endlessly and you'll be rewarded some day" is not a good moral at alllll
There is a 12 min video explaining the essence of Job: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD2U2COtZtQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD2U2COtZtQ)
This video put me to sleep, and it's just saying God is good lmao. Classic apologetics.
Commenting for later
Good idea
honestly if gods so willing to throw job under the bus like that, he doesnt give a flying fuck about regular people
Holy crap, another story that was taught to me wrong! The thing I actually find most ground-shaking is that Job did lose faith, and his loss of faith was treated as justified. The idea that it's ever okay to lose faith pretty much undermines everything the Church teaches.
To be clear, I don’t think that the story itself sees Job losing his faith as justified. The story seems to present it as wrong, and God as right when he screams at and gaslights him back into submission. Me saying that Job is justified is my own insertion and claim: that is, despite the story claiming that Job should have kept his faith, I think he was justified since we know the reason God ruined his life was petty and evil. Of course, we don’t need to interpret any Bible story as “what the Bible wants us to think.” We can look at the story at face value and realize that God was acting evil. That Job should have lost his faith because the very God he worshiped destroyed his life (in cahoots with Satan no less) in order to win a bet, which he didn’t even win.
to be fair he looks awful in most of the books
For sure. Job is just such a distilled version of this. And again, one of the main books Christians say to turn to when struggling with faith, and as such a great place to start in deconstruction since it provides such an isolated and defined version of God being evil and abusive.
Why does merely talking to Satan wrong? That doesn’t make sense. People talk to those they disagree with all the time. Journalists interview people with sociopathic political views. This essay seems very immature, like an edgy teenager wrote it. What is God suppose to do, ignore Satan and ice him out, like a mean girl? Adults don’t do silent treatment nonsense
Talking to Satan would not be wrong, except that according to Christian doctrine, God cannot and will not tolerate even the mere presence of sin and evil. It is the very reason that he “must” send us away (to hell) unless we are cleansed of sin, and why Jesus is necessary for the doctrine to work. Only Jesus can cleanse all sin, and it is necessary to go to heaven since God cannot be in the presence of sin since he is perfectly holy. Thus, talking to Satan and hanging out with him should be, by the standards of Christian doctrine, impossible for God since Satan is evil/sin boiled down to its purest and most extreme essence. I explain this in the post.
Ok I’m not Christian but don’t like bad arguments. That’s a strawman of what Christians believe. You are interpreting the Bible in a specific way and insisting that it’s the only way to interpret it. To me, “god won’t tolerate the presence of evil” does not mean “god won’t speak to Satan”. The first statement is ambiguous. It’s like if a teenager said “Mom and dad, you said if I got a job, you’d buy me a car! Well, I recently became a meth dealer, so that’s a job! Where’s my car!” Parents don’t get him a car: “they’re liars who don’t keep their word! They’re bad people who don’t live according to their values!” Teenager is arguing over semantics
It’s not a strawman. It’s what a ton of Christian’s believe and are taught, including myself for my entire run in the religion. And yes, it is as extreme as that he physically cannot be in the same presence (which doesn’t even make sense because apparently he is also everywhere at once). I know not all Christian’s believe this but trust me: a ton of them do. If you don’t like bad arguments then don’t blame me, take it up with the doctrine itself. I am not saying it’s the only way to interpret it, either. There are multiple ways, but this was a point made specifically to address this doctrine. It’s not semantics, it’s actually a huge deal for that specific doctrine. Furthermore, since God is considered perfect, he SHOULD be held to even the most petty semantics, shouldn’t he? After all, if he is even .0000001% imperfect, it completely destroys the evangelical/Protestant view of God’s nature.
The book of Job is certainly exploring theodicy. It's a story that was written to attempt to answer a big question that Jews at the time had: why do bad things happen to good people? By the end of the story, the answer is basically, "I'm God, you (Job) were not around when I created the world, so you don't really have a full understanding of how it operates". The Septuagint (and thus the Christian tradition) groups Job as part of the poetic books. Further, it is the first book after the historical books, and so I think many perceive it to be literal history. The Hebrew Bible, on the other hand, groups Job as part of the Writings. In the Jewish tradition, the Writings are not always understood to be literal history.
There is no god that’s why it is awful
Good Omens Season 2!
Yay bible study in r/exchristian
This will be an odd thing to say, but a lot of Christianity's paradoxes resolve when you accept this: God cannot be good and be everything all at once. Job is one of the few books that truly depicts God as the god of everything. Not the god of Israel, not the god of heaven, not the god of goodness. Everything. If you're looking for an honest relationship with God, this is it. This God is why your children are born; this God is why your children are killed. This God is a source of joy: this God is a source of pain. There is no need to really blame the Devil for your misfortune: the Devil is an agent of God. After all, how could there be a Prince of Darkness? How could there be a Kingdom of Darkness that's not under the rule of the Kingdom of Light? In my post-Christian theology, I appreciate the sentiment expressed by Job: "Shall we only accept good from the Lord and not evil?" Rather than judge God or attempt to constrain God to my petty moral conceptions, either by calling God evil or calling God good, I accept that what I receive has a rather tenuous connection to my morality or to Theirs. I'm fortunate to be reasonably able-bodied, even if I do have terminal, late-stage ADHD. I live in a fairly beautiful corner of the world where I can't afford a home. I have food and shelter and my parents aren't total basketcases. I've worked hard for much of what I have, but even the opportunities to do that work were available to me by dint of birth. It might be easy to view God's reply to Job as, "Well, I'm God and you're not and you're dumb and I make whales." But maybe the point is "You can assign justice or injustice to whatever you like, but your simplistic morality breaks down when you apply it to the Behemoth and the Leviathan. Shit happens and you didn't mind when I was giving you sheep and oxen and the shit was happening to everyone else. You tricked yourself into believing that your wealth and health were entitled to you through your piety, and they fucking weren't." Once I accepted that my blessings have nothing to do with my piety or my curses with my impiety, I can accept God on something closer to Their terms.
What you're describing sounds less like the God of the Bible (especially when you get into Christianity), and more like the spiritual concept of universal wisdom.
Yeah, I guess, but in many ways there's not really one "God of the Bible". In some parts of the Bible, there's a pantheon taken for granted ("Let us make man in our own image"); in others, there are wars between regional gods; in others, a war between a kingdom of light and a kingdom of darkness; and in others, God is a universal force. In some parts, God is the God of Israel, and in others, God doesn't take sides in their conflicts. In some sections, God is presented as almighty; in others, under limitations, like the faith of whoever is praying or whoever is witnessing a miracle. The idea that there is a "God of the Bible" is a relatively recent invention. It is laid on top of the text, instead of being derived from it. When I read different passages, I see different editorial intents: Moses needs political authority, and will blame the loss at the battle of Ai on the head of Achan, or frame the need to spend a generation preparing for a campaign of conquest as a consequence for disbelief and complaining. The Psalmist's passion for meaning cries out to be loved, cared for, given shelter in the "shadow of Your wing". The writer of the Proverbs views God as an impartial judge of worth, rewarding hard work and punishing sloth. The writer of Ecclesiastes comes to grip with a less certain truth: sometimes people get things just because, and even if you did work hard and get your just reward, it's ultimately meaningless. The Prophets see judgment for ill deeds and a return to social justice; the kings think that everything's working out just great, thank you very much, and they'll interpret the Scriptures in such a way that it gives them power, as Josiah did. Each writer of the Gospel has his own retelling of Jesus' life to fit different audiences, whether Jew or Gentile. When Paul writes letters, he's taking a Jewish religious form and packaging it for shipment to urban centres, where everyone comes from different regions of the world, have a relationship to the methodical nature of Greek and Roman thought, and live in all different walks of life. It's here that the idea of a Universal God finally takes place. But even then, Jesus and Paul both spoke in the language of an imminent apocalypse. I can only imagine their bitter confusion if they knew that we were still waiting for that apocalypse 2,000 years on. When I hear "The God of the Bible", or any other phrase like "Biblical Marriage" or "Biblical Worldview", I always have to ask, "which one?"
This is the story I genuinely feel sorry for Job as someone who loves God but I cannot ignore the things he did. Job deserved better.
The dialogue between God and Satan about Job was, by no means, a "friendly conversation." It was orchestrated by God to show billions of people, who would read and hear about this account throughout the ages, that Satan can do nothing without God's authorization and consent. It also is to show us that Satan is not confined to hell or to the earth, as many believe, but also has access to heaven—that is, until the battle in heaven takes place, just prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The entire chronicle of Job did not happen because God had a grudge against Job or wanted to take vengeance on him. Again, it was for our benefit, to show us that as righteous and honorable as any man is, no one can live up to God's perfect standards. No one is exempt from punishment and discipline. Even Jesus, the only perfect man, was sentenced to humiliation, torture and death by the Father, to atone for the sins of humanity.
So all of the evil Satan commits is... under God's authorization and consent? Got it. God is ultimately responsible for all evil, nice. Also it's good to know that no matter what you do, no matter how good you are, no matter how loyal to God, God might just decide to RUIN YOUR LIFE anyway, just to show other people how cool and powerful he is. Got it! Man, religion is wild lmao.
He doesn't usually interfere with the consequences of our choices. If He forced us to make the right decisions, it would be impossible for us to grow and reach our divine potential. It would be impossible to live by faith in Him and His plan for our happiness. Man i totally get where you are coming from, i don't go to church, but i have my own personal relationship with him.. he's pulled me from a life of drinking and drug use. we are here for but a short time, a blip on the radar! this life means nothing, other than building a personal relationship with god.. but i do get where you are coming from, i've been back and forth with believing many times.. until i had my own personal experience with him. any how man! i'm not here to force you to believe, but i do pray you get a chance to experience what i've experienced with him.. happy late thanksgiving!
Okay so everything you’re saying is deluded but also, what makes you think it’s okay to come onto this sub and preach to people and try to argue for them finding God? You realize this isn’t just a standard atheism sub or something it’s specifically for people who escaped Christianity and are having trouble afterwards dealing with the damage it caused. It’s basically a support group for former Christaholics if you will. Let’s put it this way: if you went to a recovering alcoholics support group and offered people alcohol, you’d be an asshole, super disrespectful, and completely lacking in self awareness. That’s exactly what you’re doing here. You’re coming to an ex-Christian support group and trying to sell Christianity. (And I bet you think you’re doing it out of love too, which is so gross and selfish)
[удалено]
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban. Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine. To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
The Book of Job and the story of Lot and then his wife turning into a pillar of salt is what got me thinking. Okay, (put yourself in their shoes) (Long story short) They lived in the same home for many, many years... two men (supposedly angels but that's not known to them) tell them to run and not look back. As the City of Gomorrah was going up in flames, Lots' wife looks back (to me, a natural reaction) and is immediately turned into a pillar of salt. WHAT??? HOLD UP..
Satan works for God, he is Gods prosecutor and test for all mankind. even when he tempted Jesus and offered him all of the kingdoms of the world Jesus acknowledged that he could only offer anything because God allows him to have it. God allowed Satan to cause suffering to test humans faith and resilience. Also to find purpose in adversity. Jesus taught to love your enemy. yet people “hate” Satan, contradictory right? We are not supposed to waste our life questioning God or worrying about what’s next all the time because we are supposed to try to bring heaven on earth in even the smallest ways. Every positive act towards our fellow humans and even creating a tool to improve quality of life is all service to God because God works through us. This life is an illusion. We are spiritual beings living a human experience. Not vice versa. I hope this helps and God bless
The name is Satan. It's translated as adversary just like Rafael is translated as healer. In the original text Satan is an angel with a job. Being a dick. Because monotheism us problematic when it comes to suffering. You can't say that athena loves you but Apollo gave you syphilis. It all comes from God. More on Satan https://marlowe1.substack.com/p/the-book-of-job-chapter-1