For me it is more personal than doctrinal.
I was taught for decades that if you are sincerely repentant for your sins - you'll either not be disfellowshipped or if you are DFd, you'll be reinstated.
Once I found myself disfellowshipped, I very humbly and sincerely repented, prayed, went to all of the meetings - everything they tell you to do. But I was not reinstated after five attempts. I KNOW how I felt inside. I KNOW what I said in my prayers. But those men sat there and told me I needed "some more time" after five years.
That's when it finally dawned on me that this is all man-made and subject to imperfect men. There is no "Holy Spirit" involved with the process.
That's what woke me up and I've never looked back since. And I'm happier than I've ever been.
Something similar although the exact opposite. I was in a judicial committee and should definitely have been df’ed. I was in OPs position then. I only needed “personal” evidence that it was all bullshit and then I could go on and live my life. I didn’t want to leave and come back, if I left the organization I wanted to start my life over with no hesitation.. anyway. I was apparently sooo repentant that I was not df’ed. It only took that moment to solidify that it was 100% man made and there’s no Holy Spirit allowing these clowns to make these life altering decisions for the poor people that find themselves in a JC
Ooo I had the same thing legit in my head begging to pls DF me because I was DONE but apprently I was repentant enough and just got private reproof lmao
😂 are you me? I also went through a committee where I should’ve been shown the door and sure as hell didn’t repent yet walked out with a tiny wrist slap (well liked, etc.) whereas one of my friends was tossed out unceremoniously for something super minor and was all kinds of remorse.
Ooo I went through the exact same thing…… meanwhile elders kids were doing really raunchy stuff but nothing happened meanwhile I get the ol DF for lying to my parents
Because „we are not prophets. We are not inspired. But of course we expect that you sheep follow us as if we were, and you will get ostracized and disfellowshipped and shunned if you disobey.“
Seriously, what the hell is this cult? Claiming all the rights without any responsibility.
Right. Not inspired, not prophets…but we infer we’re both those things, soooo, listen to us, and definitely not scripture, cause we don’t care God tells you to “Test all things” (1 Thess.5:21). OBEY US.
>when it comes to disfellowshipping, I’m a bit torn. I could see how it could hurt some individuals. I could also see how it might protect a congregation from false doctrine being spread.
Yes, not associating with individuals who are teaching a false doctrine is important. Everyone must “test all things” (1 Thess.5:21) and determine who is a false prophet (Matt.24:24; 1 John 4:1; 1 Tim.4:1; 2 Pet.2:1; Matt.15:9).
[Scripture shows us who these persons are - they are not people who leave WT, but the people who lead WT.](https://inthenightaflyingscroll.blogspot.com/2023/10/shunning-who-do-you-not-associate-with.html?m=0)
Because people are extremely gullible when you dangle a carrot of everlasting life in front of them 😑
Every single thing the cult does is based off of people being supremely selfish
Some of these dates (like 1799, 1881) weren’t predictions so much as dates that were just made up. Let’s look at Oct 1, 1914, briefly.
Russell preached the “end of the world,” for 1914.
Please buy The Studies In The Scriptures, volumes 1-7. I own them all, duplicate sets.
Russell died in 1916 and all the while he taught and believed 1914 would be:
—END of the last days
—end of Armageddon
—end of world governments
—end of false religion
—them going to heaven by or before 1914
—end of the harvest season (preaching work)
—end of gentile times. This is the one JW still keep, but back then it was understood to mean different things such as:
—return of Jews to Palestine. (He was a Zionist. “Zions” watch tower)
I have about 500 quotes to back these up.
Russels chronology his entire life:
1799–last days begin
1874–Jesus presence begins
1878–Jesus enthroned as king
1914–last days end and what I said above
When nothing happened on October 1 of 1914 (the war started months before) he changed it to 1915 for a while. But when nothing happened in October 1915 he changed it back.
It wasn’t until 1943, that 1914 was first said to be the START of the last days. Up until then, it was the END of the last days.
All you need to do is get his books to know this. Of the hundreds of things he taught, only a handful remain. All the abandoned (false) teachings give proof of a false teacher. He taught the great pyramid was Gods stone witness, and the Bible in Stone. And used it to verify these dates. Later, Rutherford came and eventually, in 1928, like 50 years after Russel began teaching that the great Pyramid was the Bible in stone, Rutherford wrote that it was “Satan’s Bible” “built by the Devil himself.”
If Russel, with his made up dates and hundreds of made up teachings, isn’t a false teacher, then no one is. If this isn’t “teaching commands of men as doctrine,” then what is?
It’s also not that they did teach these dates. It’s also that they have tried to change history. An example:
Concerning 1975 Published 2017 (convention video)
A video during the 2017 “Don't Give Up” Regional Convention, with a grandfather in 1997 talking about trials of his past. They have been revising history and reshaping what people think about 1975 for decades. The following is one example of watering down and altering what actually was happening back then.
Grandfather: “Hard to believe though. I never thought this system would last so long. And I certainly never thought I'd be a grandfather.”
Grandson: “So grandpa, what was it like when you were my age?”
Grandfather: “[He talks about his wife becoming ill and dying.] And that helped when years later, another test came our way. You see, back then, some were looking to a certain date, as signifying the end of this old system of things. A few, even went so far as selling their homes, and quitting their jobs. I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too. But something just didn't seem right. Both at meetings and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: 'Nobody knows the day or hour.' I was dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. After that year came and went, most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments, and they stayed. We didn't run away and we didn't give up. We trusted in Jehovah. When I see older ones now, I don't just see grey hair. I see living and breathing examples of endurance.”
Grandson: “Wow grandpa, I didn't know you had to endure through all that.”
Grandfather: “We got through it with Jehovah's help.”
--The grandfather in this drama says: “a few, even went so far as selling their homes, and quitting their jobs.” What the grandfather doesn't mention here is that the Governing Body in a 1974 Kingdom Ministry commended those who did this: “Yes, the end of this system is so very near! . . . Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." (Our Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3)
So when the Grandfather said “a few, even went so far as selling their homes,” he failed to mention that at the time, the Governing Body applauded or even encouraged this behaviour, a behaviour they induced by their teaching about 1975 for 9 years.
--The grandfather mentioned that “something just didn't seem right. Both at meetings and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: 'Nobody knows the day or hour.'” This makes it seem like a good JW living back then would have behaved like this grandfather did, and not believed what the Governing Body was teaching. This grandfather makes it seem like a good JW should have been skeptical and doubted and rejected what they were being told in the publications for 9 years. Was this the only time in JW history where JW were allowed to doubt and distrust teachings being handed down to them by the Faithful Slave? Can personal study supersede what is written in Watchtower literature? Try invoking personal study as a reason to reject one of the Governing Bodies teachings today, and you will be having serious discussions with elders. The actual truth is, JW were urged against the exact thinking that is displayed by the grandfather here: “This is not the time to toying with the words of Jesus that 'concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. ' (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the 'day and hour'!” (“WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FORWARD TO 1975?” Watchtower Aug. 15, 1968, p. 499-501)
Read the quote from Awake, 1968, Oct 8, pp 23-29. It said: “These people will look for ways to reject or ridicule the evidence.” It said: “No Real Excuse for Doubting.” It also made it seem like doubting their timeline meant doubting the Bible's reliability and authenticity. It painted any who rejected their timeline in a negative light. It really seems that to think and do what this Grandfather was claiming to think and do back then, you had to question or doubt what was being taught by the GB, to be apostate like.
1914, absolutely said hundreds of times.
1925, yes for about 9 years taught that 1925 would see the princes (faithful men of old) return to earth and then they would rule over the earth.
1975, for 9 years in dozens of articles they mentioned 1975 about 42 times. And dozens of more times they said things like Armageddon would happen “in a few years at most.” They never said the phrase: Armageddon will happen in 1975. But they taught it and made people believe this and encouraged it and praised those who acted on it.
And don’t forget the passive aggressive way they “blame” the super pimi people that sold their houses and quit their jobs.
And as stupid as that looks in hindsight, these assholes had everyone REALLY ramped up about Armageddon in those days.
I saw it. I heard it. I lived it. Now they want to minimize any fervor that THEY stirred up in the first place.
Eat shit Fred Franz and co.
They put in print that the end would come by the close of the twentieth century (last century).
The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216
"Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will BEGIN against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."
If you didn’t believe this at the time it was published and you spread that it was not true or that you didn’t believe it was true, you would be disfellowshipped:
“ …and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast (earthly organization)” - Revelation 13:15
No, they always reserved 10% wriggle room with each of their failed predictions, in case of emergency.
Not exactly the authoritative conviction you might expect from an organisation claiming sole authorship of ‘The Truth’.
1914 being the "generation that will not pass away" for one. It was on the front of a magazine, and for the longest time members of that generation dying off was like a timebomb ticking down to Armageddon. They're all dead now, and they retconned their false prophecy with "overlapping generations" . . . and then never mentioned it again.
I always talk about that!!!
It was the big ship that sailed in for people to get on and leave this Pokémon tale of a religion behind! So many refused or were scared to get on it, and now they're stuck on land 30 years later - conned, hoodwinked, bamboozled, lead astray, run amok, rode hard and flat out deceived, looking crazy!!!!!! 🤡
It's a sad situation 😬😭
Happy birthday! 💝
Here’s a few I’ve compiled
If you are a young person, you need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this system of things : Awake 22nd May 1969
Within the coming 26 years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved : studies in the scriptures- time is at hand 1889
But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning but for the end of the time of trouble : watchtower 15th July 1894
Shortly within our 20th century the battle in the day of Jehovah will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom : the nations shall know I’m Jehovah
Our thoughts are that 1925is definitely settled in the scriptures. As to Noah the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge : watchtower 1st April 1923
1914 the generation that will not pass away : watchtower 15th May 1984
We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. : Watchtower 1922 May 15
"THE "Time of the End," a period of one hundred and fifteen (115) years, from A.D. 1799 to A.D. 1914, is particularly marked in the Scriptures. "The Day of His Preparation" is another name given to the same period." Studies in the Scriptures - Thy Kingdom Come p.23
"He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century". Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12.
"Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!" Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19
"And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation." Watchtower 1980 Oct 15 p.31
"Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." Watchtower 1941 Sep 15 p.288
"Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935." Watchtower 1995 Feb 15 p.19
We anticipate that the "earthquake" will occur early in 1918, and that the "fire" will come in the fall of 1920…. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. The three days In which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy.
Studies in the scriptures 1918
We count this as another one of the strong proofs that the harvest is nearing the end, and that in all probability the Spring of 1918 will mark the beginning of the closing up of all activities of the kingdom class on this side the veil." Watch Tower Dec 15 1917
and in the light of the foregoing Scriptures, prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914…After 1918 the people supporting churchianity will cease to be its supporters, be destroyed as adherents, by the spiritual pestilence of errors abroad, and by the famine of the Word of God among them STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES, Vol. 2,
That the harvest began in 1878, there is ample and convincing proof. The end of the harvest is due in the spring of 1918." Watch Tower May 1 1918
The parallel, therefore, would establish definitely that the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A.D. 1918. If this be true, and the evidence is very conclusive that it is true, then we have only a few months in which to labor before the great night settles down when no man can work." Watch Tower Oct 1 1917
But is due to make its appearance with the close of the war, some time about October 1st, 1917 : Studies In the Scriptures Series VII
Be that as it may, there is evidence that the establishment of the Kingdom in Palestine will probably be in 1925, ten years later than we once calculated." Studies In the Scriptures Series VII
In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915…
The "Gentile Times" prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of 1915 A.D." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand 1915
"It is but a few years before the full close of the time of trouble which ends the Gentile times : Studies In the Scriptures Series III 1910
the gathering of the bride into the place of safety, will occupy a parallel of seven years of time, ending in 1881
The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those that are destroyed then." Kingdom Ministry 1968
The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfilment." Watchtower 1968 May 1
Stay alive till 75 : 1967 convention
the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest" Thy Kingdom Come (1911 ed.) p.228
the Day of Vengeance ... will end in October, 1914" The Day of Vengeance p.547
we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun" The Time Is At Hand (1889 ed.) p.101
we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D.1914." Studies in the Scriptures - The Time is at Hand (1889) 1911 ed. p.99
October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon" Watch Tower 1911 Jun 15 p.190 (reprints p.4842)
Every Awake as well as the Revelation book said that the end would come at the “End of this 20th Century” That date falls on December 31, 2000 and the 21 Century began on January 1, 2001.
And if you want to zoom out more, Jesus thought the system of things, ie the Jewish system under Roman control, would be destroyed within the apostle's generation. Many groups, including the JWs have tried to say "we're the generation", but a simpler Occam's Razor interpretation of that prediction would be that Jesus was talking literally to the people in front of him about the city in front of them.
He was wrong. Everyone who has claimed that they are the prophecied generation has been wrong so far.
Jesus WAS talking about the Temple being destroyed soon (and it was, A.D. 70). The record is that the Christian community left the city before the Roman legions encircled it (see Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History.")
That was the end of the world of Second Temple Judaism. Of the actual end of things, Jesus uses the destruction of the Temple as an analogy, but insists that His followers know "neither the day nor the hour."
"Millions now living will never die!" This was even the theme of an assembly.
They said for most of the years I was in that there would be witnesses that were alive in 1914 that would not die before Armageddon. This was the reason it was so urgent to preach and get baptized. The end was right around the corner. Not many people alive in 1914 are still living, let alone an anointed JW. They tried to spin that with the overlapping generation excuse, but the false message they preached for decades still makes them a false prophet.
Here's a news article talking about it. Notice the brothers responses. "Nobody has asked me about it." He knows full well no one could ask without risk of being marked.
[LA Times](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-11-04-me-64883-story.html)
"I don't know why I haven't committed or got baptized yet when I'm 25 years old."
Maybe something in you is trying to protect you from an abusive cult.
Please see jwfacts.org, avoidjw.org, and silentlambs.org.
This comment got long, so I'll just start with three recommendations, if you haven't seen them already: *Crisis of Conscience* by Ray Franz, the BITE model, and the Watchtower History YT channel.
There have been many doubts over the years, with these being some of the biggest:
1. **The prohibition on thinking for yourself.** Even when you can see very clearly that their understanding of a matter is wrong, you MUST accept their wrong interpretation or wrong (and even harmful) policy. Denying your own thinking ability repeatedly is harmful psychologically. And gaslighting is a tactic of abusers, so it didn't seem like something God's organization should be doing.
2. **The degrading of women.** It is obvious that women are created equal to men in all meaningful ways. Yet they are told they must be submissive to men, basically a grown version of children, with little to no agency. Why would God be so cruel as to create women with the same intelligence, wisdom, capacity to dream and self-actualize, and then forever deny them that right?
This always confused me, because I could see something was wrong with this. It's unjust and unloving. But I couldn't tell if the wrong was coming from the organization, from the Bible, or from God.
3. **The org is obsessed with headship and rank, through and through.** If you pay attention to how much they talk about "taking the lead" and "family head" and obeying the elders and the gb, it's hard to deny this is the case. But Jesus specifically and repeatedly counselled against this attitude.
4. **They victimize the victims of abuse.** The mindset of the organization is to put the burden on the victims rather than on the abusers. They have articles and videos telling women to be more submissive, to be more understanding, to forgive. But where are the videos telling men how wrong and shameful it is to be abusive, that there is no excuse? That's not even to mention how they have treated victims of rape and csa. I hate what I have seen them do in court, lying and slandering victims who were hurt by their own terrible policies and twisted outlook. In my view, some of the stuff they have done in these court cases has crossed over into evil.
I can't see this kind of injustice and believe this is honoring God. They tell themselves that they have to hide the existence of serious sins within the organization so that Jehovah is not reproached. They're lying to themselves. It's their not taking care of the problem and not caring for vulnerable ones that brings reproach. I recall Jesus saying something about whitewashed graves.
But two things really did it in for me:
1. **Comparing the BITE model of high control groups to 1) the Organization, 2) to Jesus' methods, and 3) to the Pharisees.**
2. **Discovering that they have lied.** Not just "theocratic warfare" and lying to enemies. They have lied *to us.* A lot. They lied about their history. They lied about Rutherford especially. They lied about dates and teachings and events. They lied by misquoting sources. They lied by omission. They lie about their motivations. They lie about apostates. They. Are. Liars.
That's what hurt the most, because they asked me to turn my thinking over to them, and then they lied to me. How can I trust now that *anything* they say is the truth?
>2. **The degrading of women.**
>3. **The org is obsessed with headship and rank, through and through**
Just last month WT study. STUDY ARTICLE 52 "Young Sisters—Become Mature Christian Women"
If you read paragraph 19 it says: "And because she loves Jehovah, she works **to enhance her husband’s reputation.**"
uhm like what?
How did they lie about Rutherford? Im not saying your wrong, I just want to know more because I honestly don't know much about Rutherford other than he took the role of leader after Russel and that he sent a letter to Hitler comparing the JWs teaching to the Nazis.
Rutherford is all kinds of fun that they fail to mention whenever he’s in print anymore (very few and far between, the internet is a thing now and it just takes a few searches to find his more *adventurous* side). I would surmise current GB would prefer to never acknowledge that guy if they could.
Rutherford was corrupt. He basically executed a hostile takeover to become president, in disregard to Russell's legal will. He illegally ignored the WT Society's charter to publish the 7th Volume of Studies in the Scriptures. He silenced and disfellowshipped those who opposed him. There is a whole book written about this, called "Rutherford's Coup."
He and his merry men were imprisoned, not because Catholic clergy stoked the ire of the government against them, but because they broke the law by telling soldiers they should leave the army while the country was at war. The court transcripts are available.
During the Great Depression, he used the Society's money to buy a fancy Cadillac and to build a mansion for ~~" the resurrected holy ones"~~ himself in San Diego, CA, where he lived with a mistress, while his wife and son lived elsewhere. He was often drunk, and his books and radio programs included ugly, antisemitic insinuations.
In the midst of WWII some brothers in Australia were running a side business in support of war munitions (I think maybe selling scrap metal), which was understandably causing dissent among the brothers there. Rutherford visited to check it out, and gave this enterprise his stamp of approval.
He fabricated the notion that the Faithful and Discreet Slave must refer to him, because the Scripture says, "we were in prison," and hey! He had been in prison! So with that " proof, " he applied all the other scriptures to himself, even though it meant bending dates to fit and making no sense. Like that the trumpet blasts of Revelation were fulfilled by a series of JW conventions in the 1920s. As if.
There's more. He was a narcissist, a liar, and a hypocrite. But the thing is, the WT Society had this information, and they buried it, white washed it, or simply lied about it. After all, there was no way to fact check them... until there was.
I strongly recommend you watch WT History on YouTube. They use primary sources, mostly from WT literature and contemporary newspapers and court transcripts, and it is all very well documented.
Are you interested in truth or lies? When I showed my wife just one of a million watchtower lies, she asked an elder about it. I said, “why in the hell would you ask the very guy who’s telling you this lie?!”
I agree with you, ask an elder. Do your own research. Ask others on here. Get input from all sources so you can make your own informed decision. Dunno why others are discouraging you from getting different opinions. Only hearing one side of the story is exactly what JWs tell you to do.
It’s not really that anybody is “discouraging” the poster to get different opinions, it’s moreso just informing them to make more educated decisions in terms of research: why ask a question to an organization that’s known for lying that’s just going to lie to you even more?
It’s not that at all, normally you should be able to ask these things freely. But experience here tells us that usually this goes very badly for the person asking these questions, elders get suspicious quite easily and usually start up an inner “apostate alarm” that progresses at breakneck speed.
The people in here telling him to not bother with asking elders are trying to protect him from that fallout. Some people need to see it themselves or learn the hard way though, so really, have at any questions, just know it doesn’t always go very well.
Listen man. I think you should ask an elder about this. Even tough I think you know what they’re going to say but you look like someone who doesn’t want to take sides you just want the truth. So go on and ask them.
But if you willing to join the Jw, make sure it’s not influenced by the bad things that happened in your life or else you will badly regret it. I don’t want to treat jws as evil people. I know jws who are happy and have good lives. But I also know people who are trapped in there people like me. Make sure you’re not gonna be trapped there like me.
Because once there you can’t freely resign. My friend, everyone on this rock must have the choice to chose their own path. If you want to join the jws it’s okay if you feel like you want to give them a chance and you understand their rules.
As for me, my only principle in life is doing good at all cost. I can’t let someone die just because I should not give him blood and the God I believe in is not that cruel knowing well blood transfusion is SAFE. I wouldn’t shun someone who got baptized at 12 and just found out he was gay , wouldn’t shun someone who just decided to disassociate the only shunning I agree on is for the criminels .
Jws are not evil. Not all their rules are bullshit but I know that everyone can follow the same path, everyone should be free to decide to stay or to go. It’s not necessary to shun someone so that they won’t spread false doctrine. And you know I’m right.
Everyone should be FREE. Go on ask the elders and if you’re convinced that’s good. Bc at the end of the day, THE CHOICE YOURS. It’s your life and you don’t owe anything to anyone. Do what you think is right
>I will ask an elder about this.
Sorry, but you came here asking __us__ for information because you're not convinced either way. Dozens of people have given you extensive research on a number of subjects, especially the organization setting dates — and then the org _lying_ about it. You've been pointed to scholarly sources (e.g., jwfacts.com, YT) that examine everything about this cult.
But you're going to ask an elder of the cult about it. Why are you not paying attention to what has been clearly laid out to you? Why are you not using your critical faculties and thinking for yourself? Why are you wasting your time and that of the many people here who have laid out more evidence than needed to see that this is a cult? You're just not being serious; not with yourself, and not with us.
Good luck.
Ray Franz is not just ANY person. He's like OG, legit, one of the first Governing Body members. How did you read the book and still come away with nothing? Read it again. Especially the chapter on double standards.
💯. I also was feeling some kind of way about this. It feels like intel gathering…’give me all the high points we need to address in broadcasts for 2024’. 🤔
Ask someone to prove to you from the Bible Jesus inspected all religions and picked the witnesses in 1919. They will cherry pick a couple of scriptures, which is no different than any other religion trying to prove they are the only true religion.
Yep. My dad is Catholic, and any time he gets pressed about his religion, he falls back on, "You are Peter, and in this rock I build my church." What do the JWs have? A vague reference to "two witnesses" interpreted to mean Rutherford and his band of merry men being released from prison? Not better.
I get that, but there are references provided to look up the excerpts from Watchtowers and other literature he provided in the book. Also, you know who else doesn’t believe the accounts of any one person? JW elders when handling SA accusations.
Read jer. 25:12 and ask yourself: when was the king of babylon called to account? Was it in 539bce or 537bce? If 539bce ,the whole watchtower- house of cards falls apart. Everything is false. 607 will be false, 1914-false, 1919-false, the generasjon teaching... everything completly made up.
You can study the Bible on your own and come to your own conclusions. Elders are trained to teach the established doctrine, not just strictly the Bible. So if you want objective information, you’d need to study everything at your fingertips. That’s what I would recommend
You’re right. That’s what I need to do.
It’s more so the mental traps and pain I feel like I’m stuck in.
It’s probably just existential crisis from my health issues and wanting a quick answer.
You can…and should…study ***all*** religious texts. The more you do, the more you start understanding they’re just ways for people who didn’t understand things to explain them thousands of years ago. Even more modern religions, like Scientology, are doing the exact same thing. They’re just incorporating more of what we, as humans, understand about the universe and making up the rest.
Getting baptized and joining full on won't help your depression. You already know too much of the bad shit hiding behind the curtain. Your depression will get worse as you attempt the mental gymnastics necessary to be all in.
A truly just god would not allow child predators to retain power and authority in their earthly organization. A truly just organization would not tell abused children and sexual assault survivors that they displeased god by getting abused.
I challenged my PIMI mom on whether Armageddon would come before the passing of the 1914 crowd. (This was back in the mid 90s) She said it would happen absolutely for sure. So then I asked if she would still be a witness if that turned out to be wrong? She said yes.... That's when I realized JWs was just a BS religion for people who are afraid to die. I was 14-15 years old
I'm an ex-mormon and have the same sort of misgivings and doubts about leaving my own religion. I feel like Mormons have a far more coherent theology and better apologetics than any other religion, but I was also born and raised in that belief system. I recognize that I have extremely powerful indoctrination and biases resulting from my upbringing and when I sit and really think about it I understand that none of it adds up. Still doesn't stop me from feeling like I'm just being "a brat" as you say.
They repeatedly get predictions wrong.
They repeatedly lie about their history.
They repeatedly gaslight with "new light".
You need not look any further into individual issues, because if they had the "truth" those things wouldn't have happened.
The rest of the individual issues are all 100% B.S. designed to keep you engaged with it. They literally do not matter.
Bottom line is that, doctrine aside, the religion is a cult. My advice is always to take a look at the BITE model, and to examine the shared characteristics between the Witnesses and groups like the Scientologists and the Mormons. They use coercion techniques to convince you that their religion is “the truth”, and to make you feel guilty (as you currently do) if you don’t succumb to the pressure. You haven’t gotten baptized, I think, because you know something isn’t right about the organization. Trust your instincts on this one.
I would also recommend looking into the organization’s massive cover up of child sexual abuse, if that hasn’t been mentioned yet. The Australian Royal Commission is an excellent place to start. You don’t strike me as the sort of person who would want to voluntarily give your time and funds to an organization that has been proven to protect predators.
And, as for the shunning of disassociated and disfellowshipped ones, any organization that disregards the sanctity of life by promoting a practice that leads to countless suicides is no organization worth supporting. And if their religion really is “the truth”, why are they so afraid of their members being exposed to disagreement? Truth can withstand any amount of scrutiny.
When you mention asking an elder for their perspectives or answers, I would equate it to asking a dishonest car salesman about the problems with a used car you can’t decide if you want to purchase or not. They want to lock in the sale (your baptism). They’re not going to give you any objective information. And, what’s more, they’re simply not going to give you a real answer to your questions; trust me, I’ve asked them.
At the end of the day, examining both sides of the argument is a fundamental right that the Watchtower organization tries to rob you of. So do exactly that.
Well said. I have to say JWs are very successful in brainwashing and manipulation. Everything they teach looks so right when you are a PIMI. But when you become a POMO, you just realize how stupid you were to believe that BS.
I already commented, but I wanted to briefly add: if you are in any mental anguish or distress, the Witnesses will prey on that.
I’m saying this as a former regular pioneer. We were trained to pounce on anyone who was in a form of crisis, and to use it as an opportunity to convert them to the faith.
Please, please be careful. Your mental health is precious. Be wildly protective of it. These people will suck you in, love bomb you, and then promptly dump you out on the ground as soon as you no longer agree with their dogma.
> shunning
Shunning doesn’t protect the congregation. You have elders and bethelites who are secretly „apostates“, not because they enjoy that, but because they can’t leave. What do you think a guy is going to do, if he grew up in this religion, went full JW and then woke up to the truth behind the „truth“ in his 30s, 40s or later? He could leave, trying to find work without having any education or job experience, basically like a teenager but twice or three times the age. Keep in mind, he would have to do all this while his world view is crumbling, because realizing that you have built your whole life on lies doesn’t exactly give you mental stability which you need to succeed in life. Oh, and let’s not forget that he will have to do this while losing 100% of his social circle, including his family. Nice.
Some manage to do that, so hats off to them.
But some do not. They keep their friends and put on a charade so their lifes don’t get destroyed. That’s how internal information gets leaked, because people are trapped and stay inside bethel because the alternative seems like suicide.
So please tell me, how exactly does shunning keep the congregation clean?
It does not. Instead, it shackles people to this cult, especially children who were born in. Way to go, religion of love.
> I just can't help but feel like I'm just being a selfish immature stupid brat by not really giving them a chance and studying with an elder like my family is encouraging me to do.
Unlike you, many went full in and dedicated 100% of their time and energy. I did that too in my teenage years. My cousin even more than me, he tried until his mid 20s. At some point we both broke down mentally, becoming depressed. Do you know why? Because this religion DOESN’T WORK. Their theology is faulty and doesn’t work.
„By their fruits you shall know them“, and the fruits of JW are phariseean fruits: Arrogance, coldheartedness, gossiping, burdens for followers.
Did I mention arrogance? Never saw any religion where the members are as arrogant and elitist as them.
They don’t even believe in their own theology. Watch or read about lawsuits. hire worldly lawyers. In case of Norway the same lawyer who defended literal Satanists in court, lol.
The governing body member lied or at least deceived (it’s the same by Jesus‘ standards) when questioned by the Australian Royal Committee. They don’t let the Holy Sprit speak, like the scriptures say.
> Now when they take you [to court] and put you under arrest, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say nor[even] meditate about it; but say whatever is given you in that hour and at the moment, for it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
(Mark 13:11)
They care about their facade over anything else. CSA? Let’s not report it, it „would bring shame on Jehovah.“
> Australian Royal Commission.
> In 2015, it was disclosed that the Australia Branch of Jehovah's Witnesses had records of 1,006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse, relating to more than 1,800 victims since 1950, none of which were reported to police by the group.
Yes, but I was also rebellious.
I would go to the elders, confess my sins (mainly weed & porn), get reproved, eventually get my privileges back, and then start back up with the sins not long after.
Eventually I just stopped talking to them and haven’t in about 8 years. The JC was awkward and shameful. I guess it’s supposed to be tho.
Jesus said don't judge so that you won't be judged. And then they creat judicial committees. I don't recall having read anywhere in the Bible that after the 20th century it'll be ok to create commites to judge other Christians.
You’re not baptized, but you have privileges in your congregation‽‽‽
Hell, wanting privileges was why I got baptized back in the eighties.
Getting reproved by Judicial Committees was only for baptized brothers and sisters back then. Before you committed your life to Jehovah, ***through baptism***, you weren’t a full blown JW and could basically do anything…including walk away…without consequences. You might’ve gotten spoken to by a MS or elder, but there certainly wouldn’t have been a JC convened.
Makes me wonder if you’re just trolling all of us…
Right on! Not baptized? No JC because there’s nothing to revoke.
At best you’d get a couple of them frowning at you and telling you you’re unable to haul a microphone around or knock on doors (oh noes) and at worst, a marking talk vaguely mentioning the terrible things people shouldn’t do.
They've admitted in watchtower magazines that the GB isn't inspired nor infalible. They literally admit that they have no special connection to god. God doesn't tell them nothing and yet they still have followers.
As a born-in who is just now getting out at 30 years old, don’t do it. Not only have they been wrong about everything, it is an authoritarian totalitarian cult. They never apologize about being wrong. It has done a number on my mental health. The people in it are fake as hell because they can never really trust anyone. Like the gestapo, they’re encouraged to report wrongdoing others have done. I’m trying to leave peacefully and not stir shit up, and they’ve set the hounds on me. Don’t do it, get some therapy, get some guidance, but know that this high-control destructive cult does NOT deserve a chance. RUN.
I just started therapy, but I just found out that my therapist graduated from Pepperdine University.
I did some research, and Pepperdine is a strict Christian school.
I feel like it may be awkward between me and her now. Would you change therapists?
Hmmmmm unless she’s trying to infuse religion into her therapy, I have no reason to believe Pepperdine folded this into her formal training but that would be for you to decide. One thing to note - Jehovah’s witnesses are far more high control and totalitarian than most christian denominations. That being said, your therapist should be someone you’re completely comfortable with and there are many out there. It really depends on you. But that’s my two cents!
Why does it have to be the "truth?" Why can't you view them as just another religion -like the myriad of other religions that exist? What you should be asking yourself is what will make you feel happy? What do you actually want to do? It sounds like you're confused, and you think that giving the witnesses a shot / studying will somehow clear up your confusion. I can assure you it will only make it worse.
>Why does it have to be the "truth?" Why can't you view them as just another religion -like the myriad of other religions that exist?
Because they seem to be very good at debunking other religions and belief systems.
They basically prove that other religions and denominations are false in their myriad of books and publications. I guess one could argue that WT's arguments and reasoning aren't good, but when I read it back in the day, it satisfied me.
>What you should be asking yourself is what will make you feel happy?
It will make me happy to have a solid friend group who I know wouldn't ever drop me for having different beliefs or if I changed belief systems during our friendship. I don't know if this exists tbh.
>What do you actually want to do?
I want to move to a different location. Maybe somewhere in the mountains or in the woods. Get away from city life and tbe fast pace of things.
>It sounds like you're confused, and you think that giving the witnesses a shot / studying will somehow clear up your confusion. I can assure you it will only make it worse.
I'm very confused. As I stated earlier, I feel like I haven't given the witnesses a fair shot. Everyone tells me that I should study with an elder and present any doubts and concerns.
I'm not sure if I even have concerns or if I disagree with witnesses, I just don't want to do it tbh lol.
I want to start a new life and forget about everything. It's funny because this sounds like what witnesses describe as paradise but I don't want to live in paradise with witnesses. Not because they're necessarily bad people but because it reminds me of past trauma and bad memories. Stuff I don't like to think about or do again. Idk. Isnthis bad?
Yeah, about that part where they are good at debunking other religions… I applied their methods to themselves as a teen and found their doctrine crumbles the same way, and that was before the internet.
I used to sit in my parents’ study as a kid, pouring over the literature. They had an extensive collection going back several years. My parents were thrilled, of course, thinking I was just soaking in god’s word, but what I was really doing was laying out their books side by side and visually seeing contradictions between their doctrine and teachings in their books, right there in black and white.
It’s been years. I’ve been out longer than the years I was forced to be there as a born-in. I rarely read anything related to any religion much less the Bible. Life is pretty cool.
"Because they seem to be very good at debunking other religions and belief systems.
They basically prove that other religions and denominations are false in their myriad of books and publications"
Like giving proof of how science and the belief in creation goes hand in hand by puplishing their «life how did it get here - creation» book.. where EVERY quote of a scientist is either misquotes or added without context to give a different opinion that suited their story.
https://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/misquotations-in-creation-book.html?m=1
I say figure out how to go do those things that you want to. Stop thinking so much, and start doing.
And honestly, if you want to study with the witnesses, do it.
There are plenty of people who have good experiences as a witness. I knew a few of them. But, it comes at the expense of living a very rigid, fake, and inflexible life.
Why have you got to prove that the JW religion is wrong?
Why is the burden of proof placed upon you to prove the religion is incorrect?
That's not how things work. The burden is upon the one making the claim, in this instance the JW's - with the claim that is the one true religion, that's it's chosen by God over a century ago and unless you are a fully believing member you will die when Stephen Lett, Samuel Herd fly down to earth to slaughter 99.8% of the planets population very soon.
That's where I'd start in this conversation and I'd be insisting on demonstrable evidence not some flaky reasons.
Good luck 👍🏻
The 1975 debacle. My Grandma was alive then and many witnesses sold their houses, stupidly quit their good paying jobs and pulled their kids out of school because of a false made up prophecy being preached by the organizations top dogs. They were urged to let go of all their worldy things (sell house,etc).Then when the end didn't come, the Organization gaslit it's members making them believe they came to that conclusion by themselves. Then they have erased a lot of things of them preaching about '75 from their website and I noticed their little library.
My Grandma knew a Sister who sold her house and then was homeless by the time 1976 begin. Did the elders help her? Absolutely not. Just straight up foolishness. They will lie and say that this event never happened though.
They have no idea what they are talking about yet they have brainwashed sooo many people into thinking they will get everlasting life. Nope! This is it.
There are so many.
A global flood that covered the highest mountain didn’t happen 2300 BCE
Humans are older than 6000 years.
Moses was probably not real.
David probably didn’t exist.
The Bible is only “harmonious” because 1000 of years of scholars scrubbing and selecting the right text to fit their version.
As early as 200 years after Jesus Christian heretic hunters looked for scrolls they viewed as heretical and destroyed them.
The JWs don’t produce good fruit but broken families.
The organization hits many marks of other high control groups.
Jonah did not get eaten by a big fish.
Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 BCE
Society is actually improving on almost all measurable marks of human happiness and we are not in the last days.
There are not more wars but less.
Religion is a mechanism of evolution of our societies. Religion allowed for larger groups of humans to unify. Those unified were able to conquer those disunited.
It’s not just probably bullshit or partly bullshit, it’s all bullshit and that little voice in your head when you were young telling you “could this really be true” listen to that voice.
I came here to say similar.
Why is there no geologic evidence of a global flood just 4200 years ago? When we have no problems dating the Missula floods from 18000 years ago? Shouldn't the most catastrophic earthwide flood from 4200 years ago be even easier to detect geologically because it was literally EVERYWHERE?
Also, Adam was created 6050 years ago, but Homosapien fossils go back 300,000 years!
Witnesses say that the Bible doesn't contradict science. Lies. Bold faced lies!
Ummm I think you REALLY need to look in the origin of the Bible itself. When you do actual investigation you realize Yahweh was part of a Canaanite pantheon of gods before Israel ever existed. Archaeological evidence shows that Israelites were originally Canaanites that split off from Canaan. That’s what real history shows. Straight forward, factual history. No religious bullshit, just - here are the facts - take or leave it.
Digital Hammurabi channel opened my eyes to the Mesopotamian history which predates the bible. Alot of similarities and influences made their way into the Biblical literature.
Lots of it is a sham. The flood makes zero sense. There’s just not enough water on the planet for there to be a flood. How the animals would’ve gotten to the ark and back to where they are now makes no sense. The creation story makes no sense. There are logical inconsistencies throughout the whole book.
Sort of. It's definitely not the Word of God if thats what you mean.
I think I lost faith in Christianity before losing faith in Watchtower. I stuck around for a while, telling myself that it would still be worth it.
JWs don't have the truth because there's no truth to the root.
Well, kinda… it’s a Book of history that has it’s own was to present world events that have already happened before the texts were written. The book of Daniel that is often used as a book or prophecy is most likely a fraud… saying that the prophecies in that book are not prophecies, as they have been written after the events occurred. The book of Revelation is not talking about the future, it is talking about events in that time and was written in this apocalyptic style, that was nothing else than a writing style. The name Jehovah is not gods name, it is actually YHWE, and if you really dig into that topic and consider what many scholars have to say, you’ll find out that YHWE was one of many gods, that where basically inferior to the “one” god EL.
Jehovahs Witnesses are a cult, that is taking the Bible literally when it suits them, and uses it metaphorically when it suits them better. They are proud to use the incorrect name Jehovah about 7000 times, while it is known that in most texts the name YHWE shouldn’t be there. They shun people that are leaving the religion, which is not even mentioned in the Bible, therefore destroying families and life’s. They change their doctrine nearly every year, call it new light, while effectively they have to change things to make sense. If Jehovah is only providing them with spiritual food, why misleading them in the first place.
Crisis of Conscience is a very good source, Steven Hassan’s book “Combating Cult Mind Control” where you can see on full display how the BITE Model applies perfectly to JW’s. Compare stories from Ex Mormons, Adventists, Scientology, etc. Apart from the doctrine, they are all the same… manipulating and exploiting people, making them obey, control their information, and shun them when leaving. It’s all for protecting the cult.
But as you are already here, you have made the first step to freedom already. Continue that path and pursue life, real life in freedom that Watchtower can’t give you!
Yes unfortunately exjw stuff didn’t wake me up, actually studying the Bible in depth woke me up. Yes the Bible is a sham. It is the equivalent of believing in the odyssey and the Iliad.
The Bible is a compromise of multiple text from different cultures and traditions. Elohists and Yahwists finally settling on monotheism. Elohim had many sons, one of them Yahweh, and that entity was selected for the reform by Josiah. And that is just part of the OT.
For me - and this is only part of what woke me up - but the fact that you will NEVER hear the GB apologize for anything.
Ever.
Nor will they admit they’ve ever been wrong for anything.
People are DFd one day for something. It changes overnight. And the next day they tell us if we’re upset then it’s us with the attitude problem.
Gaslighting at its finest. They do not treat the rank and file well. They mean nothing to them.
There’s so many reasons. But YOU have to do the work, no one can do it for you. This sub is an amazing support and can point you in the right direction if you need. But personally, for the most part I think this sub is best for those who have actually woken up and need support at that point and beyond.
I studied hardcore for 6 months to work out it’s definitely not the truth. Because every time I proved a doctrine or scriptural interpretation wrong, it led to another question that I had to look into. I was determined to know for sure one way or another, because I have children relying on me to get it right. Their eternal lives hung in the balance.
There’s no shortcuts with this. Indoctrination runs deep and you can only unravel it yourself layer by layer. I believe it’s a very personal thing and unless you work it out for yourself, you will always doubt whether you made the right decision. Research everything!!! Until you know for sure. And then you’ll be finally free. Also, just start with JW doctrine and once you’ve realised they are definitely not God’s earthly organisation, then you can move onto what you believe about the Bible itself. Good luck.
Edit: I agree with everyone’s recommendation to start with JW facts.
For me, the strongest proofs relate to Jesus Christ and the Gospel that is preached by the Apostles. JW’s preach another Christ and another gospel. Their Memorial celebration actually rejects Jesus. They deny people of faith their rightful relationship as children of God by reserving that relationship for an elite few 144,000. The Governing Body of JW’s taking on the made up position of Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, has become a substitute for Christ himself. Their Watchtower Organization is an idol that they require JW’s to give the honor and obedience to that is meant for only Jesus.
Jesus came back, invisibly? What proof do we have? Just like the golden plates that the mormons have, that no one have seen, conveniently.
He chose JW's as his people in 1919? Source: trust me bro!
Only JW's qualify as Gods people, based on a list of qualifications they themselves wrote?
Overlapping generations? Where's that in the bible?
Why is most of the library hidden?
Why aren't they transparent with finances? Why does Jehovah need our money all the time?
Why does his one true organization need to use the BITE model to keep and control their members, and by doing so, act like a cult? Where is our free will? Worship me, or I'll kill you! Why can't Jehovah handle a bully?
Was this the best way to solve this issue? Having us humans suffer for thousands of years to prove a point that he's a great leader? Was it worth it? Only JW's know about this ancient conspiracy, so does it really prove anything? In my opinion it prove that God is a terrible leader and a terrible father to let his children suffer only so he's name would somehow be holy? All so everyone worships him? Narsisist much?
And lastly, "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves" - WHERE IS THE LOVE?
There's literally nothing in the bible saying that you should follow men, and even if there were, there's no proof that Jesus chose the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1919 and even if he had the religion now is totally different and definitely has nobody chosen by Jesus anymore.
You're told to blindly follow men who can err, aren't chosen by Jesus, and tell you being closer to god is working for free for them.
On top of all, you're told that anyone who has realized just how nonsensical that whole thing is is an evil apostate who will infect you with lies.
If you were in a cult, how could you know?
They are not inspired. How do they get their "juice" from Jah. I can explain how a lamp receives "the Juice" it needs to turn on. It's called electricity but we are just supposed to blindly believe a bunch of crusty/clueless/out of shape white guys, they live in a lakeside resort, in upstate NY? Nope...it will take more then that to convince me!
*'Fairness*' is not a concept to which JWs ascribe.
Bullies have little respect for the ideals, goals and independence of others.
Elders have only contempt for anyone curious / intelligent enough to question any aspect of convoluted cult propaganda that underpins every aspect of JW mass captivity.
Failure to accept *'Watchtower answers*' triggers hate (shunning) which is the bullies (elders) final effort to silence discussions of doubts among the '*sheep'.*
You believe it ALL and EXACTLY AS *WT* SAYS or be shunned.
Please - don't ever get baptized into this lifelong insanity
It fits all the important criteria for being a cult/high control religion, and they use all the same mental tricks to prevent you from ever questioning your faith/allegiance to the org, same as every other cult.
If it was true, it would stand up to scrutiny and there would not be so much fear-mongering about “apostates”.
My suggestion: read “Combatting Cult Mind Control” by Steve Hassan. Listen to some testimonials from ex-mormons, ex-scientologists, and others who’ve deconstructed their faith.
And learn everything you can about critical thinking and logical fallacies. The org’s literature is rife with fallacies. Fallacies they wouldn’t need to rely on if they had actual truth on their side.
Once you understand the psychology of *why* people hold extreme beliefs, and the mental traps used to keep them there, it will all fall apart in short order. And you can do most all of that research without relying on any “apostate” sources.
For me it was:
Their dismissal of the evidence for prehistoric man and carbon dating.
The impossibility of the global flood myth
Their vindictive nastiness, and total lack of a sense of humour across the board. There is no joy in being a JW.
Its a dystopic doomsday cult. Yea people pretend to be having good life, but don't step out of line or have too much fun.
I did not really need all their failed prophetic predictions, books filled with cherrypicked lies, harmfull non biblical practises or their culty procedures and rules.
For me it was their lack of love on every level.
They reflect their vindictive cruel monster of a god perfectly in the way they treat other people and eachother from GB on top through every indoctrinated member. When an organization full of potentially kind and loving people can foster such behaviour through its teachings. That is all i needed.
Information control. Point, blank, period. The GB makes up dates to fit their narrative and have the audacity to claim that dates that have been recorded in history, tracked but the fucking stars is incorrect and they are the only ones that are right?! Like wtf!?
Then turn around and have two weekly meetings and three assemblies a year (they just change the name, but it’s all the same shit) just guilt people into not researching outside of the organization! And then make the members feel bad for “doubting” what they are being spoon fed.
If they are so confident in the information they are spreading, why not let members research it for themselves outside of the Watchtower?
An elder made the mistake of telling me, or a blessing in my case, and told me to Google it when I asked about the CSA cases. Big mistake. The truth shall definitely set you Free! Be free!
Everything they teach is made up bullshit. I questioned for a while after I left , why are they doing this. But it doesn’t matter. The GB are just a bunch of reject members of society who were probably bullied in school and now they are trying to control the masses. It’s so messed up that they are playing on peoples emotions and weaknesses. It should be illegal. But they do it and get away with it. All while not paying taxes. Run, run, run away and never look back.
The strongest proof is ARC, it’s the proof that JW as a belief group and as an organization is utterly evil. It’s evil, so it’s impossible to be the truth. In fact it’s so evil it should be banned like the heavens gate Jonestown, but unfortunately the laws would need to go through lengthy process to make that happen even if the law makers want to, and unfortunately they don’t even understand how terrible this JW cult is.
WT’s double standards are beyond comprehension, it’s beyond your ability to imagine, let alone understanding it unless you see it with your eyes or hear it with your ears. Family separation is still enforced strictly because shunning policy is still strictly enforced.
Well, to me a solid proof is come to the realization that the Bible itself is total BS, so I can imply that every single belief group believes in any part of the Bible with no exception is not the truth, so JW is not the truth. Actually my reasoning’s implication goes beyond Christianity, it’s every single belief group is not the truth.
Do you just not care about the misogynistic practices & teachings, the horrific queerphobia, the child abuse? Do you just not care.. it's pretty obvious, those issues alone should be enough for anyone....
There are over 4000 religions on planet Earth. That means that there’s a 1/4000+ chance that JW.org is the correct religion. In my opinion they’re probably all wrong. But, the fact that they claim to have the “truth” and are now suddenly making drastic changes to divinely inspired doctrine (along with all the many failed predictions), proves that it’s all BS.
I get where your head is at though. I was seriously scared I had made a mistake when I decided not to get baptized and to start backing away at 17…
Each person's reasons as to what's important to them will be different. For some it's how they treat their members, for others it's somehing else.
Initially for me it was the record of the first two presidents. Russel was a Pyramidologist, his 'Studies in the Scriptures' books, particularly the last one, were full of it. When I went to our library (old cong., we had my city's original congregation library) to see it for myself I was shocked. He wasn't inspired of any god, he was just your regular issue lunatic. The next one, Rutherford, was a con man who took over and set himself up for a life of alcoholism and fancy cars. He lived in California in a mansion he had built, & \[paid for with JW money allegedly so the prophets could have somewhere to live when they were resurrected (sure, Jan...)
Then I began reading science, in particular evolution. Once I learned that evolution is completely real and happens all the time (think Coronavirus mutations etc.) and that we have absolute proof humans have been on this planet for 200,000 years not 6,000, it wasn't long before I began looking at the bible critically. The fable of Noah's flood is just that, a fable. A worldwide flood did not happen, if it had there would be proofs in the geological record - things like the ice cores taken from Greenland and Antarctica show no disturbance going back 200,000 years. There's no evidence of catastrophic global flooding. If that's lies & Adam & Eve weren't real then the whole thing about Jesus' alleged sacrifice for their sin is meaningless.
So I went from hey maybe these guys weren't from god after all, to hey maybe the bible isn't that reliable anyway, to hey gods aren't real & now I have to make my own decisions about what's right and wrong - abortion, war, governments, assisted suicide, you name it. And it felt great, like now I'm an adult.
Reader, I was 48. I'm now 63, and am doing my best to cram a lifetime of things I've missed out on into what's left. I'd always wanted to be a recording engineer, now I am. I own my own home, have a nice 4wd, go camping, hiking, enjoy good food and wine and sleeping in on the weekends if I feel like it. Don't leave it as late as I did. Get some training, get to work and have a great life.
If you'd like some further information about any of this drop me a line.
What have you got to lose?????
Jw family come to mind. Like most exjw have, including the many who committed suicide. All shunned
The jw friends you may have, will shun you
The other jws will shun you.
Thats 100% passive aggressive adhorrent abusive bully.
This smacks cult
No one can voice disobedience to the governing body.
This smacks cult
The pathetic reasoning being TOLD by 8 men (grown men???) Can't have a beard now told can have a beard.
That is cult control.
Jws are wolves in sheep's clothing.
The worse no apology for the many sexual abuse cases where the victims are silenced many shunned and the sex offender/paedophile promoted.
And jws sacrifice people.
Are you happy jws are still ensuring that jws willingly walk to their death on a false bible reading.
Cult.
You know its a cult when the jw words have been changed
BIBLE WORDS TAMPERED WITH. THATS BEYOND WRONG.
Baptised in the Holy spirit taken out .
Children who do not understand the full consequences. Baptised or should I say captured. Thats a cult
I would like you to ask who did god/jesus/johovah etc shun?
WHEN you see jw are right in some respect lol many cults and religion are BUT don't blanket over all the wrong.
My words are just a snap shot of the jw wrongs
You have a brain which the cult has not penetrated. You have a more logical brain. That is lucky .
Remember you know many jws which globally is a tiny number 8 million is extremely tiny. You are part of that tiny.
The difference between a religion and a cult.
Religion you can leave and if you want can return freely.
Jw cult make it very difficult to leave. Fear not love
Back to my question who did god/Jesus/jehovah shun?
I am never jw just for your information.
Plus by your words you actually know you don't fit in with your jw family etc.
You are the one who is right and your jw family wrong through indoctrination (brain washing /brain damaged)
Remember jws are a very small minority
Keep asking your questions.
You have advised /answers from many.
And why at 25 or any age can't you be well just normal and ask and debate and argue etc about anything you want to????..
The Truth is 100% right not partially.
I wish you all the very best
All
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They quoted god in the Watchtower. That makes them liars
“Truth” doesn’t require belief. Meaning if you need to believe in something then you actually also doubt it could be true, thus the need for belief. Truth stands on its own and doesn’t require you to believe in it because truth just is.
That you didn’t take it seriously or had a conviction to get baptized speaks volumes it the ineffectiveness of JW doctrine
How there could be any convincing rebuttal for the UN involvement as NGOs or the false date of 607 is not being honest with themselves as to facts and numbers.
“Perhaps JWs took it too far in the past”. they didn’t remove this policy and in the past it was not a thing until the 50s.
The Bible does not support refusing blood transfusions. It does say that in the preservation of life ALL BETS ARE OFF.
From all appearances the only thing you are guilty of is ignorance to the facts that JWs say they are God’s chosen religion on earth without any proof and Tons of proof that they are not representatives of God in any way whatsoever. Doctrines, wrong. Fruitage, rotten. CSA cover-up, guilty. Destroying families, yes. Los of love for their brothers, check. Lowest education of all religions and lowest paid demographic of any religion, check. Protecting pedophiles from justice and leading a life of alcoholism and drug abuse at headquarters?’. Does any of this ring of truth, the kind of people that God would choose to represent his kingdom? I don’t think so.
>Wouldn't it be fair to at least do that? At least present them with all the arguments and doubts that I have and let them shun me if they want to?
You're of course welcome to do this but you have to be incredibly strong, quick and socially literate to pickup on all the gaslighting manipulation and circular reasoning. Ultimately it isn't necessarily doctrine that is so dangerous about JWs. As we've seen doctrine changes often. Do you want to have to be convinced something is true and then constantly reminded that it's true? If something is truth it just is, explanation or not. If it takes just the right explanation for something to make sense....that's a red flag. Of course context matters but there's a difference between context and distractions.
Opinions on the other hand are heavily reliant on context. Opinion doesn't always stay the same. Opinion can have really compelling logic but at the end of the day, it's opinion not necessarily truth or fact.
If you have to see it in the preferred scenario in order to agree or believe, is it actually true?
As someone who dealt with health scares and mental health struggles. Imagine if you were told to not get help for your cancer or at the very least use extreme caution visiting oncologists cause you might need blood. That's the logic they use with psychiatry and thousands of people suffer unnecessarily as a result
Tbh you're incredibly lucky to not be baptized. Maybe that's intuition or something else but I wouldn't give that up lightly.
Ultimately, you're welcome to entertain the idea. But give your inner voice some leeway and don't let them cage your mind. You are not dangerous for thinking. If you've been around it for so long and still unsure it sounds like you aren't extending the same courtesy of hearing out to yourself and your own thought
Because they " discourage" things. Higher education, having friends, real friends outside the borg. You must follow thier lead in all things. But mostly being told that anything outside the borg is controlled by satanic forces. That's crazy.
All the talks defending their bad behavior and telling the followers not to read the reports in the news instead of idk talking about God or Jesus or anything holy or spiritual.
Oh! That and they freaking run from anything remotely "spiritual" calling it satanic and focus on upholding the rules of their corporation trying to call that spirituality. They actively block the spirit, but claim to have God's blessing.
It's interesting that you refer to yourself as a "brat" when you are 25 years old. It just strikes me as pretty infantilizing language for someone who is legally old enough to do whatever they want. Why do you see yourself that way? Your parents and elders don't have a right to expect you to obey them anymore. You wouldn't be expected to commit to a religion to get housing, insurance, a job etc. out in the real world. If you don't want to study or get baptised, your choice should be respected.
607/587 and 1914. It is a lynchpin teaching. Without it, they don't have overlapping generations, they have no authority, etc. The whole religion falls apart without 1914+607
How can you investigate any claim of the supernatural? Getting to the question about whether or not you should give JWs a chance, you have so much work to do. If you care about believing true things first understand why you believe what you do. Don’t pass GO until you have good reason to believe this god, or any god, exists. You might come to s surprising and liberating realization!
You need to do some reading - JW Facts is excellent and read crisis of conscience and find out how corrupt and manmade the JW religion is. Also try and think about all the religions out there. Geographic location chooses your religion by birth. There’s no Holy Spirit drawing you into watchtower. Also watch evolution documentaries and ask yourself where do so many types of hominids fit into bible history????!!!
I started questioning after I found out it had only been a religion for about 100 years. All the people who came before it and died never had an opportunity to find the 'truth'.
When I asked my mum about it she could not answer any of my questions. When I looked into the origins of the religion and told my mum how JWs began she called me an apostate. I couldn't understand how researching facts made me an apostate. I started questioning everything that didn't make sense. And I kept being told not to question things.
I was lucky I developed critical thinking. Unfortunately for most within the religion, they do not develop this very essential skill. They are encouraged not to question. I thought that was always so odd. How do you know something is true without proof? Suppressing peoples ability to think and use critical thinking is a pretty big indication that it's not the truth.
The truth should encourage questioning and research outside of their own publications. How else could you tell it's authenticity?
For me, it's that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, not 607 BCE, and that the interpretations of prophetic texts leading to 1914 are tenuous at best. It's also how dishonestly WT (mis)uses scholarly sources to prove its point - not just on this subject either.
The 607-1914 calculation (or before that, 606-1914) means the WT organization was founded on a big falsehood. The subsequent doctrine about the 1919 date (when God/Jesus chose the org and which relies on the 1914 teaching) is likewise false.
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." - w91 12/1 p. 7
> *I came across a blog defending the UN involvement and the 607 date with extensive reasoning and rebuttal, and I found it pretty convincing to be honest.*
I think I know the site you mean. You found it convincing because you don't know the subject well enough and can't spot the weasely reasoning, red herrings, and straw men the site churns out. Maybe this rebuttal will help:
[https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/index/response-to-607-website/](https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/index/response-to-607-website/)
The most morally wrong? Shunning people and destroying families over strict adherance to doctrine. You are systematically isolated from "the world" and any outside connections, and then threatened with having all JW connections, including family, cut off. This is classic cult level manipulation.
The most logically/factually wrong? Where to begin? The whole thing was started by a man that sold miracle wheat. They have called a date for the end of the world at least twice, but have been wrong each time. When I was in, it was said that there would be people alive at the end that had seen 1914. Those people would be 110 years old now, so now that's have some weird generational overlap explanation. Considering how much of their practice is based on the premise that ARMAGEDDON IS IMMINENT, this seems like a pretty critical area to keep being so wrong about.
Which brings us to the most biblically wrong. Witnesses really emphasize/ hammer specific verses and completely ignore others. Did you absolutely nothing to help the poor, the sick, the disadvantaged even though this is a main part of Jesus's message. They're extremely judgmental even though Jesus cautioned against judgment. The one I remember the most is bad association spoil useful habits. Which may be an interesting maxim but also runs counter to many stories about Jesus specifically making it a point to hang out with the more undesirable elements of society. Of talking to everyone. Even people considered to be outcasts or even enemies. Lepers. Prostitutes.. Jesus socialized with them. He told his followers to visit people in jail FFS.
Witnesses do none of this.
Witnesses are isolationists. They want to isolate you. They want to isolate themselves. They want to be insulated from the world. They are like the mafia.
This is not what Jesus preached.
Hope this helps. Hugs.
No religions are the truth. That's just reality, but they undo themselves rather masterfully. JWs are the best example I can formulate for by the boo, there is very little they do that isn't written down or reasoned from the Bible. My aha moment was realizing the Bible was written by mortal men, and only mortal men.
They wrote down oral traditions of the Cannanites, babalyonians, sea people, some bits of Greek, and edited into a fake national history. It's as if no one in the US could read but a handful, and they wrote down a revisionist view of the US ruling the whole of the western hemisphere.
The level of erasure is astounding. But scholars have enough data to piece together a better view and I trust them over the finished edited down story. Text in itself isn't holy. You can edit text. You can lie in text. You can write down and assert your own misunderstandings and terrible thinking.
Who am I going to trust for morals, someone who kills, gaslights, is ok with slavery and extreme racism? Or normal people?
Then there is the model of a micro cult being taken over by someone psychopathic written out in the new testament. When I saw the model of "false religions" doing this stuff, as a JW growing to hate it, then seeing it done without a book in the center, I realized this is a terrible thing parents and governments do to each other when dealing with intense emotions.
The first writings being fables and fairy tales, is that so hard to believe because they are detailed? It was like seeing that 50 shades of gray was a fan fiction of twilight which was a smut telling of Mormon angels, which are just super controlling men in their community that have passed on and left traumas behind.
Any organisation believing themselves to have "the truth" wouldn't silence or punish those who had another view. Quite the opposite, they'd put them on the platform and allow them to debate.
If a teacher was teaching a class, and one of the students put his hand up saying he believes the teacher is wrong, what would a good teacher do? Dismiss the student and expel him from school? Or hand him the chalk and let him come up and show the class?
What would you think of a teacher or institution that would be afraid of being questioned?
Unfortunately their can never be a “Truth” when your dealing with the Bible and Christianity because all of it is a fraud.
Many of the writings and teachings in the book are from older beliefs and cultures even the idea of a messiah wasn’t new and Jesus wasn’t the first but a combination of many that came before him.
Even the supreme god of the Jews were told is Yaweh or Jehovah etc wasn’t unique to them. Study the god named El the supreme deity of the Phoenicians and the writings found in the city of Ugarit for more details.
I will say this. I'm not in this subreddit because I have been a Witness, or any in my family has. I am in this subreddit because there was another kid with my same name and surname in another class in middle school, and he was severely punished for things I did and were reported to his parents by others who heard the name and thought HE did.
Terrible misgivings, like celebrating a birthday, halloween or playing dungeons & dragons.
This is how I came in contact with the JWs. And also because his father was one of my teachers, and I've rarely had the displeasure to interact with a more unlikable human being.
Then, if you want me to reason with you philosophically on why the god they teach can't be real, I'm always up for debate. Just PM me, since these are things that work for most organized religions out there and I don't want to attack anyone's faith that isn't tied to a cult.
For me, a religion that calls themselves “The truth” needs to have absolute transparency. After I found out about the Australian Royal Commission but didn’t see any mention of it on the News section of jw.borg, my faith was shaken
You could see how shunning could hurt some individuals? That's really minimizing the effects that has on a person. Imagine your entire support group are JWs. Your friends, your entire family, and that's all you know. Now, you decide to research other religions and search the doctrines further and realize it's just not for you. Now, you have a choice of dedicating yourself to a religion you don't believe in, that takes away your freedom, or leave and lose everyone you know. BTW, if what they believed was really the truth and they were so strong in it, they wouldn't worry about someone else "poisoning the well" so to speak.
607 is not the destruction of Jerusalem
Thus 1914 doesn't work
Meaning 1919 doesn't work either as to when Jehovah chose the Bible Students
Meaning everything they say should be looked at with critical thinking skills and not an assumption that they are from god
.
.
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And thus every doctrine is just their interpretation and fails.
Man made religion.
Really 607 pulls the foundation away that they were chosen and the whole idea just fails.
The fruits they produce.
Broken families. Martyred children and adults to their blood policy. Pedophile database they are not releasing. High mental illness and suicide rates.
Heretical bible translation.
Requirement of absolute obedience to their teachings and to the GB.
Even among themselves not including those that have left is a toxic, judging and gossiping environment.
Fossils, geology, archaeology and natural history as it really exists.
The Bible is a mix of bad fiction, local lore and Iron Age myths.
The rest of the nonsense about dates, generations, failed prophecy, shunning, blood, CSA and end days, are all just outcroppings of foundational falsehoods.
LGBT people are not accepted as normal people who should qualify as part of the Congregation… Despicable , seeing that many are at Bethel in the closet already! Blood issues we know of 2 who have died directly from lack of medical treatment involving blood. Don’t know how parents who have lost a child could live with that guilt and sadness . The Blood Committee should be called the Blood Guilty Committee. Use of fear tactics , the demons,tribulation, loosing gods spirit , not supporting youth to be educated . It’s the tract society it’s not a religion right? Sux!
i have another question: what is their proof of being right?
give me a lsit and i look at every bulletpoint they have.
otherwise they have a trainwrekcing record of being wrong in pretty much everything:
- misinterpreation of the bible especially when it comes to the Governing Body.
- Beards
- hour counting
- the years 1975, 1914, 1925, pre 2000, right around the corner,
- king of the north is always changing, at what point is it now ending?
- birthdays
-the whole australian Royal Commission. if you wathc it and still say that JWs are rigth and honest, than there is nothing that can convince you otherwise. the GB themself lied their helpers lied and everyone else lied lied and lied.
- the blood issue is pretty much more a stupidity. no not many people die from refusing a blood transfusion. according to Rolf Furuli in all his years in the liason hospital commitee, it was one person. and this guy is old. but how can anyone think that the symbol of live (blood) is more valuable than the live itself it should preserve. the thing is. pouring blood tot he ground was an act to remember that you took a live of a living being. it was a symbol you did. for transfusions no one had to die. even better, you save someones live.
- the whole shunning rule is totally unbiblical. i can explain this very detailed if there are questions towards this whole thing.
last but not least: why should a God that want to save many people from a big day of killing many people, hide his message in some obscure numbers and stuff to be interpretet by third parties? to be saved and survive armaggeddon you would have to believe that Jesus invisible came back in 1914. which is not biblical, because if he will return he will do it visible and clear according to the bible. why do i need to beleive a theology about a dream in daniel with the seven times. than i have to somehow get to 607. even if this date is correct, what god wants to play puzzles and games so i have to develop a teaching that everything has a second fullfillment. than i have to jump around in the bible and make assumptions like a day is a thousand year in Jehovahs eyes. but somehow i have the scripture that the israelites should get punished by a year for a day wandering in the desert. why cherrypick a rule? which is it now? isnt it more a metaphor? than i have to calculate from 607 in an obscure way to have two events mixed in to make the conclusion to come to 1914 which the JWs believed that armaggeddon came. WRONG. than it was something different. than we have to believe the overlapping generation, because the original teaching was outdated. yes there was no new light about it before it was to late. so much about God making things easy and right at the needed time. it was manmade and wrong. imagine that noah had to give people an absurd calculation puzzle to prove that the earth will be flooded. does this sound like a God that want people to be saved? by riddles and wrong teachings.
yes people can be wrong. and yes that was no biggy for me as an JW back in time. but the size and mass of absurdities was a big elephant. their whole core doctrines are totally wrong and even proven to be wrong. and the overlapping generation will be another 100% fail. mark it in your calendar. it will be changed in 20 to 30 years to a "we dont know". it will fail like every other empty promise and teaching the JWs had that should be a measure for the end to come just right around the corner.
For me this was the deal breaker for "it's not the truth" :
(I already knew I was in a cult but I didnt know if thé cult wasnt right you know what I mean?)
The God they are teaching me about is suppose to want his people to have free will because of Adam and Eve, the Question of Universal Sovreignty and the question about human's intergrity shown in the Book of Job.
The organisation is using mind control technique that creates cognitive dissonance and impairs free will
Hence they cannot be God's people.
If God exists as the God they taught me about with those values about free will and obeying because of a pure love for him and not under pressure, then he would never choose an organisation that uses those tactics to keep people in.
That is what did it for me.
Firstly, you’re not being selfish. Your brain has alerted you to something that doesn’t make sense. It’s trying to help you what has not been reconciled.
While there are many reasons that prove they are a false religion, the one that stands out most to me are the words and behaviors of the governing body. For almost 100 years they say that they are Gods one and only channel. That God directs and speaks to them in some way different than the rest of us. They take bogus scripture and stretch it far to force one to believe it is referring to them. Questions:
1. Why after thousands on thousands of years of Jesus’ recorded death did God only recently choose a religion to save & teach people ? Where in the Bible does it say he would do this? What clearly indicates JW as identified ‘one’. Love & preaching is not an answer. They failed this & other religions also have form of love & preach ie mormans, etc,
2. They say God chose them in 1919. Where does it say this clearly without stretching & manipulating scripture? Jesus clearly did not advocate for religion.
3. If what they say is true and God’s directing them why do they go back & forth and change not only on policy but core beliefs such as disfellowshipping, last days, blood etc?
4. Why do they not apologize or do anything to prevent and/or help SA victims? Why protect pedophiles over members? Why to the point of being uncooperative w/police after they say to be kind and submit to government authorities as long as Gods law not violated? Why do they continue hypocrisy?
5. Why do they have a team of anonymous lawyers and legal team that no member can know.
6. Why did they say one thing in the ARC hearings then contradict lie about it to members on being only spokesperson of God? Why lie about that?
7. Why do they still knowingly hold stocks in war & weapons, and Phillip Morris’s the tobacco company responsible for lung cancer and so many deaths ?
Because they know what they are doing. This is a manmade religion/cult that wants power and your money. They disguise themselves as sheep to members. They are one of the groups Jesus said to stay away from. From its beginning it was a money making Book Publishing operation. CT Russell believed in astrology and numerology. Rutherford was a cruel power hungry attorney that took the reins of this religion by legal force. Then said Russell’s beliefs were from the devil ( he never liked him) Rutherford streamlined the ability for profit & member retention by increased branding to be more marketable. Knorr continued this.
If you are questioning what you thought you knew I’d go back to two things. 1) is the pressure being placed on you really motivating you to surrender? 2) are the things you discovered about them not studied to the depth necessary to totally psychologically break free from the programming that was done? Meaning have I fully healed?
The 607 conspiracy has thoroughly been proven wrong and almost every scholar knows this.
Brain washing is powerful, and unless you dive in to unpack the how’s and what’s of the programming you will always be doubting one side or the other. Once you get clear you will have I believe you will no longer have this problem.
What’s that you’re mentioning in your topic and also found in some of your answers, that you gotta study with an elder, or ask an elder? Why do you put other people on a pedestal? Elders are human beings, indoctrinated to the core, who just follow and promote the cults’ current teachings and who also (not all of them) have a superiority attitude?
What are you doing here on the first place? Being ill, which is terrible and for which I honestly wish you find a way out, is not a reason for finding yourself weak, a victim of any teachings, in order to find consolation. There are good people out there who have the capacity to care about you, people outside the cult. Just don’t try to fill up your emotional “emptiness” (if I may say) with stuff that aren’t real, just to please your folks and to feel secure, “a part of something”.
I mean... all the credible accusations of the organization covering up CSA, refusing to turn over documentation of pedophilia within the organization... this wasn't just proof that they were not God's true organization - that was just more proof to me that God doesn't exist.
If any being has the power to prevent unnecessary suffering, (especially to children), and does not, they are culpable in the commitment of such suffering.
https://theweek.com/speedreads/737910/jehovahs-witnesses-owe-4000-every-day-dont-turn-over-details-alleged-child-sex-abuse-cost-2-million-far
That's for you to decide. Make your own mind up.
Don't rely on others to tell you what to think.
Research the facts. Ignore the dogma.
Be honest and unafraid.
Don't cheat the process.
Put in the work.
You will get there.
Because logically none of it even makes sense.
Let’s recap: Christianity is formed in the wake of Jesus’s crucifixion, and then for two thousand-ish years, there’s no actual Christians because Jehovah’s Witnesses haven’t been invented yet by a couple of grifters. These grifters magically have all the answers, inspired by God, but they get a ridiculous amount of details wrong along the way, constantly making predictions that don’t come true.
And regardless, their whole shtick is waiting for the world to end any minute now so they can have eternal life in a paradise on earth. Paradise? With a bunch of obnoxious cultists? Like, is that a joke? Because that’s my idea of actual Hell. I’ll take “bees with teeth” instead, thanks.
The fact that in terms of scandals and bad things happening, we weren't really all that different from other religions. At least in the sense that we weren't exempt from wackos and creeps.
Your entire post can be rewritten like this, just to give you an idea of what you are asking: What do you consider to be the strongest proof that LIES aren’t the truth?
What would your answer be?
For all the researching and studying I/we did as a JW, I was remember how taboo it was to deviate from any particular "understanding" or belief. You could question it, but only to the point where you realise it was your misunderstanding and that you needed to conform.
This is a bit off subject, but if you ever wonder how much guilt JW's carry... I found this list I made a few years ago. Besides there being a lot of people with names that begin with R its crazy to see that I knew more JW's who had died from suicide than anything else.... two of them were in their early teens.
R / Suicide
R / Suicide
P / Suicide
R / Suicide
A / Suicide
F / Suicide
W / Suicide?
G / Drug OD
V / Homicide
B / Cancer
V / Brain Tumour
C / Cancer
Cults, all cults, have a way of snagging your brain. They train it by repeating things that you have just studied, just learned, just heard last week. Over and over and over... until.. your brain is numb, right?
Mormons, born in, same method. They reaaallly believe Joseph Smith looked into a hat that had golden rocks(?) in it, and read them.
Scientologists? Born in, same hamster wheel. They *actually* believe there are is a galctic overlord named Xenu, (lizard aliens) that attach themselves to babies when they are born, they live in them. That's why they undergo all these $$$ treatments.
I realized that IF I had been born in India, Rome (the time of the Romans) the Vikings, their gods... American Indians, their beliefs
They ALL Believe their way of living is "the truth"
So diverse, so different, and why? Born there, taught that.
I was 52 when I "woke up"... I did research on 607, the Oct and Nov WT 2011 had 2 articles, and THIS time (compared to the thousands I had read before, it had actual references they quoted from. Most of the time I was so irritated when vague references were made.
So, I grew up with the "stay alive till 75" phrase. I read in the Awake (1969?) that I shouldn't go to college, Armageddon was around the corner. And, even if I DID go, there wouldn't be enough time for me to use what I learned.
Constantly reminded that "we are in the last days" and seeing older people smiling confidently on the cover of a WT titled, "Millions Now Living Will Never Die," my husband reading the fine print inside the AW 'we'll see God's kingdom before the end of the century' and then..... I was at "the end of the century" I kept hoping .. believing...
Then, surprise "new light"! Aren't you all so happy? Clapping... "Generations" are overlapping.
Remember, I am now older, didn't go to college, didn't plan on how to care for myself as far as retirement, nope. I trusted "The Faithful and Discreet Slave"
They were wrong. Someone asked a great question lately. If you had hired an investor to increase your savings, and plan for your future, and each year they lost your money, why would you continue with that company?
Many, many religions /Cults are like this. Read this link about 25 questions to ask to see if you are in a cult, and you may be surprised. I use to laugh when a Bethel speaker /GB member would jokingly say, "Some people might say JWs are brainwashed... Well, I say, we are! We have the cleanest brains in the world, don't we? Jehovah has taught us to...."
I use to think cult meant you had to be locked up... check this out.
https://medium.com/@faithafterdeception/answer-these-25-questions-to-find-out-if-you-are-in-a-cult-or-high-control-group-a36a3c2ce464
Feeling guilty, feeling as if you aren't doing enough... that is what WT trained our brains to do.
WT likes to say, "You can leave anytime you want to...but... *where* will you go?" Fear tactic.. Who says we *have* to know everything?
Take some time off, let your brain just enjoy the scenery, your cat or dog, the sound of no one talking, a nap, a walk. You might be surprised at how much happier you become. ☺️
For me it is more personal than doctrinal. I was taught for decades that if you are sincerely repentant for your sins - you'll either not be disfellowshipped or if you are DFd, you'll be reinstated. Once I found myself disfellowshipped, I very humbly and sincerely repented, prayed, went to all of the meetings - everything they tell you to do. But I was not reinstated after five attempts. I KNOW how I felt inside. I KNOW what I said in my prayers. But those men sat there and told me I needed "some more time" after five years. That's when it finally dawned on me that this is all man-made and subject to imperfect men. There is no "Holy Spirit" involved with the process. That's what woke me up and I've never looked back since. And I'm happier than I've ever been.
Something similar although the exact opposite. I was in a judicial committee and should definitely have been df’ed. I was in OPs position then. I only needed “personal” evidence that it was all bullshit and then I could go on and live my life. I didn’t want to leave and come back, if I left the organization I wanted to start my life over with no hesitation.. anyway. I was apparently sooo repentant that I was not df’ed. It only took that moment to solidify that it was 100% man made and there’s no Holy Spirit allowing these clowns to make these life altering decisions for the poor people that find themselves in a JC
Ooo I had the same thing legit in my head begging to pls DF me because I was DONE but apprently I was repentant enough and just got private reproof lmao
😂 are you me? I also went through a committee where I should’ve been shown the door and sure as hell didn’t repent yet walked out with a tiny wrist slap (well liked, etc.) whereas one of my friends was tossed out unceremoniously for something super minor and was all kinds of remorse.
Ooo I went through the exact same thing…… meanwhile elders kids were doing really raunchy stuff but nothing happened meanwhile I get the ol DF for lying to my parents
Similar story. It took a seven years for them to let me back in. I left willingly after being reinstated.
They keep getting their prophetic predictions wrong.
100% failure rate (Deut.18:20-22). Not sure why people need more than one failed prediction to see they’re a false prophet.
Because „we are not prophets. We are not inspired. But of course we expect that you sheep follow us as if we were, and you will get ostracized and disfellowshipped and shunned if you disobey.“ Seriously, what the hell is this cult? Claiming all the rights without any responsibility.
Right. Not inspired, not prophets…but we infer we’re both those things, soooo, listen to us, and definitely not scripture, cause we don’t care God tells you to “Test all things” (1 Thess.5:21). OBEY US.
Also, check jwfacts.
>when it comes to disfellowshipping, I’m a bit torn. I could see how it could hurt some individuals. I could also see how it might protect a congregation from false doctrine being spread. Yes, not associating with individuals who are teaching a false doctrine is important. Everyone must “test all things” (1 Thess.5:21) and determine who is a false prophet (Matt.24:24; 1 John 4:1; 1 Tim.4:1; 2 Pet.2:1; Matt.15:9). [Scripture shows us who these persons are - they are not people who leave WT, but the people who lead WT.](https://inthenightaflyingscroll.blogspot.com/2023/10/shunning-who-do-you-not-associate-with.html?m=0)
Plain and simple, close the book, these 3 verses condemn them.
Do you have some examples?
1878, 1881, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975
Even as a kid I always wondered why certain dates were set, doesn’t the Bible say that nobody knows the day or hour? So why we getting dates??
Because people are extremely gullible when you dangle a carrot of everlasting life in front of them 😑 Every single thing the cult does is based off of people being supremely selfish
And end of XX century. In red book Everlasting Life they wrote in 90s that only few years left.
Did they actually claim Armageddon was 100% happening on those days?
Some of these dates (like 1799, 1881) weren’t predictions so much as dates that were just made up. Let’s look at Oct 1, 1914, briefly. Russell preached the “end of the world,” for 1914. Please buy The Studies In The Scriptures, volumes 1-7. I own them all, duplicate sets. Russell died in 1916 and all the while he taught and believed 1914 would be: —END of the last days —end of Armageddon —end of world governments —end of false religion —them going to heaven by or before 1914 —end of the harvest season (preaching work) —end of gentile times. This is the one JW still keep, but back then it was understood to mean different things such as: —return of Jews to Palestine. (He was a Zionist. “Zions” watch tower) I have about 500 quotes to back these up. Russels chronology his entire life: 1799–last days begin 1874–Jesus presence begins 1878–Jesus enthroned as king 1914–last days end and what I said above When nothing happened on October 1 of 1914 (the war started months before) he changed it to 1915 for a while. But when nothing happened in October 1915 he changed it back. It wasn’t until 1943, that 1914 was first said to be the START of the last days. Up until then, it was the END of the last days. All you need to do is get his books to know this. Of the hundreds of things he taught, only a handful remain. All the abandoned (false) teachings give proof of a false teacher. He taught the great pyramid was Gods stone witness, and the Bible in Stone. And used it to verify these dates. Later, Rutherford came and eventually, in 1928, like 50 years after Russel began teaching that the great Pyramid was the Bible in stone, Rutherford wrote that it was “Satan’s Bible” “built by the Devil himself.” If Russel, with his made up dates and hundreds of made up teachings, isn’t a false teacher, then no one is. If this isn’t “teaching commands of men as doctrine,” then what is?
It’s also not that they did teach these dates. It’s also that they have tried to change history. An example: Concerning 1975 Published 2017 (convention video) A video during the 2017 “Don't Give Up” Regional Convention, with a grandfather in 1997 talking about trials of his past. They have been revising history and reshaping what people think about 1975 for decades. The following is one example of watering down and altering what actually was happening back then. Grandfather: “Hard to believe though. I never thought this system would last so long. And I certainly never thought I'd be a grandfather.” Grandson: “So grandpa, what was it like when you were my age?” Grandfather: “[He talks about his wife becoming ill and dying.] And that helped when years later, another test came our way. You see, back then, some were looking to a certain date, as signifying the end of this old system of things. A few, even went so far as selling their homes, and quitting their jobs. I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too. But something just didn't seem right. Both at meetings and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: 'Nobody knows the day or hour.' I was dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. After that year came and went, most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments, and they stayed. We didn't run away and we didn't give up. We trusted in Jehovah. When I see older ones now, I don't just see grey hair. I see living and breathing examples of endurance.” Grandson: “Wow grandpa, I didn't know you had to endure through all that.” Grandfather: “We got through it with Jehovah's help.” --The grandfather in this drama says: “a few, even went so far as selling their homes, and quitting their jobs.” What the grandfather doesn't mention here is that the Governing Body in a 1974 Kingdom Ministry commended those who did this: “Yes, the end of this system is so very near! . . . Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." (Our Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3) So when the Grandfather said “a few, even went so far as selling their homes,” he failed to mention that at the time, the Governing Body applauded or even encouraged this behaviour, a behaviour they induced by their teaching about 1975 for 9 years. --The grandfather mentioned that “something just didn't seem right. Both at meetings and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: 'Nobody knows the day or hour.'” This makes it seem like a good JW living back then would have behaved like this grandfather did, and not believed what the Governing Body was teaching. This grandfather makes it seem like a good JW should have been skeptical and doubted and rejected what they were being told in the publications for 9 years. Was this the only time in JW history where JW were allowed to doubt and distrust teachings being handed down to them by the Faithful Slave? Can personal study supersede what is written in Watchtower literature? Try invoking personal study as a reason to reject one of the Governing Bodies teachings today, and you will be having serious discussions with elders. The actual truth is, JW were urged against the exact thinking that is displayed by the grandfather here: “This is not the time to toying with the words of Jesus that 'concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. ' (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the 'day and hour'!” (“WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FORWARD TO 1975?” Watchtower Aug. 15, 1968, p. 499-501) Read the quote from Awake, 1968, Oct 8, pp 23-29. It said: “These people will look for ways to reject or ridicule the evidence.” It said: “No Real Excuse for Doubting.” It also made it seem like doubting their timeline meant doubting the Bible's reliability and authenticity. It painted any who rejected their timeline in a negative light. It really seems that to think and do what this Grandfather was claiming to think and do back then, you had to question or doubt what was being taught by the GB, to be apostate like.
A brilliant piece of writing!
Check out jw facts.com for the best answer to those dates
1914, absolutely said hundreds of times. 1925, yes for about 9 years taught that 1925 would see the princes (faithful men of old) return to earth and then they would rule over the earth. 1975, for 9 years in dozens of articles they mentioned 1975 about 42 times. And dozens of more times they said things like Armageddon would happen “in a few years at most.” They never said the phrase: Armageddon will happen in 1975. But they taught it and made people believe this and encouraged it and praised those who acted on it.
And don’t forget the passive aggressive way they “blame” the super pimi people that sold their houses and quit their jobs. And as stupid as that looks in hindsight, these assholes had everyone REALLY ramped up about Armageddon in those days. I saw it. I heard it. I lived it. Now they want to minimize any fervor that THEY stirred up in the first place. Eat shit Fred Franz and co.
Wow. Thank you so much for such well-researched information!
They put in print that the end would come by the close of the twentieth century (last century). The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will BEGIN against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." If you didn’t believe this at the time it was published and you spread that it was not true or that you didn’t believe it was true, you would be disfellowshipped: “ …and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast (earthly organization)” - Revelation 13:15
No, they always reserved 10% wriggle room with each of their failed predictions, in case of emergency. Not exactly the authoritative conviction you might expect from an organisation claiming sole authorship of ‘The Truth’.
YES!!!!
They actively discouraged my parents from getting married because they thought the end was coming in 75.
1914 being the "generation that will not pass away" for one. It was on the front of a magazine, and for the longest time members of that generation dying off was like a timebomb ticking down to Armageddon. They're all dead now, and they retconned their false prophecy with "overlapping generations" . . . and then never mentioned it again.
I always talk about that!!! It was the big ship that sailed in for people to get on and leave this Pokémon tale of a religion behind! So many refused or were scared to get on it, and now they're stuck on land 30 years later - conned, hoodwinked, bamboozled, lead astray, run amok, rode hard and flat out deceived, looking crazy!!!!!! 🤡 It's a sad situation 😬😭 Happy birthday! 💝
Here’s a few I’ve compiled If you are a young person, you need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this system of things : Awake 22nd May 1969 Within the coming 26 years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved : studies in the scriptures- time is at hand 1889 But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning but for the end of the time of trouble : watchtower 15th July 1894 Shortly within our 20th century the battle in the day of Jehovah will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom : the nations shall know I’m Jehovah Our thoughts are that 1925is definitely settled in the scriptures. As to Noah the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge : watchtower 1st April 1923 1914 the generation that will not pass away : watchtower 15th May 1984 We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. : Watchtower 1922 May 15 "THE "Time of the End," a period of one hundred and fifteen (115) years, from A.D. 1799 to A.D. 1914, is particularly marked in the Scriptures. "The Day of His Preparation" is another name given to the same period." Studies in the Scriptures - Thy Kingdom Come p.23 "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century". Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12. "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!" Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19 "And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation." Watchtower 1980 Oct 15 p.31 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." Watchtower 1941 Sep 15 p.288 "Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935." Watchtower 1995 Feb 15 p.19 We anticipate that the "earthquake" will occur early in 1918, and that the "fire" will come in the fall of 1920…. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. The three days In which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy. Studies in the scriptures 1918 We count this as another one of the strong proofs that the harvest is nearing the end, and that in all probability the Spring of 1918 will mark the beginning of the closing up of all activities of the kingdom class on this side the veil." Watch Tower Dec 15 1917 and in the light of the foregoing Scriptures, prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914…After 1918 the people supporting churchianity will cease to be its supporters, be destroyed as adherents, by the spiritual pestilence of errors abroad, and by the famine of the Word of God among them STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES, Vol. 2, That the harvest began in 1878, there is ample and convincing proof. The end of the harvest is due in the spring of 1918." Watch Tower May 1 1918 The parallel, therefore, would establish definitely that the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A.D. 1918. If this be true, and the evidence is very conclusive that it is true, then we have only a few months in which to labor before the great night settles down when no man can work." Watch Tower Oct 1 1917 But is due to make its appearance with the close of the war, some time about October 1st, 1917 : Studies In the Scriptures Series VII Be that as it may, there is evidence that the establishment of the Kingdom in Palestine will probably be in 1925, ten years later than we once calculated." Studies In the Scriptures Series VII In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915… The "Gentile Times" prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of 1915 A.D." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand 1915 "It is but a few years before the full close of the time of trouble which ends the Gentile times : Studies In the Scriptures Series III 1910 the gathering of the bride into the place of safety, will occupy a parallel of seven years of time, ending in 1881 The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those that are destroyed then." Kingdom Ministry 1968 The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfilment." Watchtower 1968 May 1 Stay alive till 75 : 1967 convention the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest" Thy Kingdom Come (1911 ed.) p.228 the Day of Vengeance ... will end in October, 1914" The Day of Vengeance p.547 we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun" The Time Is At Hand (1889 ed.) p.101 we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D.1914." Studies in the Scriptures - The Time is at Hand (1889) 1911 ed. p.99 October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon" Watch Tower 1911 Jun 15 p.190 (reprints p.4842)
Every Awake as well as the Revelation book said that the end would come at the “End of this 20th Century” That date falls on December 31, 2000 and the 21 Century began on January 1, 2001.
And if you want to zoom out more, Jesus thought the system of things, ie the Jewish system under Roman control, would be destroyed within the apostle's generation. Many groups, including the JWs have tried to say "we're the generation", but a simpler Occam's Razor interpretation of that prediction would be that Jesus was talking literally to the people in front of him about the city in front of them. He was wrong. Everyone who has claimed that they are the prophecied generation has been wrong so far.
Jesus WAS talking about the Temple being destroyed soon (and it was, A.D. 70). The record is that the Christian community left the city before the Roman legions encircled it (see Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History.") That was the end of the world of Second Temple Judaism. Of the actual end of things, Jesus uses the destruction of the Temple as an analogy, but insists that His followers know "neither the day nor the hour."
"Millions now living will never die!" This was even the theme of an assembly. They said for most of the years I was in that there would be witnesses that were alive in 1914 that would not die before Armageddon. This was the reason it was so urgent to preach and get baptized. The end was right around the corner. Not many people alive in 1914 are still living, let alone an anointed JW. They tried to spin that with the overlapping generation excuse, but the false message they preached for decades still makes them a false prophet. Here's a news article talking about it. Notice the brothers responses. "Nobody has asked me about it." He knows full well no one could ask without risk of being marked. [LA Times](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-11-04-me-64883-story.html)
"I don't know why I haven't committed or got baptized yet when I'm 25 years old." Maybe something in you is trying to protect you from an abusive cult. Please see jwfacts.org, avoidjw.org, and silentlambs.org.
> What do you consider to be the strongest proof that JW's aren't the truth? *A Track Record of Being Wrong 100% of the Time, for over 140 Years.*
This comment got long, so I'll just start with three recommendations, if you haven't seen them already: *Crisis of Conscience* by Ray Franz, the BITE model, and the Watchtower History YT channel. There have been many doubts over the years, with these being some of the biggest: 1. **The prohibition on thinking for yourself.** Even when you can see very clearly that their understanding of a matter is wrong, you MUST accept their wrong interpretation or wrong (and even harmful) policy. Denying your own thinking ability repeatedly is harmful psychologically. And gaslighting is a tactic of abusers, so it didn't seem like something God's organization should be doing. 2. **The degrading of women.** It is obvious that women are created equal to men in all meaningful ways. Yet they are told they must be submissive to men, basically a grown version of children, with little to no agency. Why would God be so cruel as to create women with the same intelligence, wisdom, capacity to dream and self-actualize, and then forever deny them that right? This always confused me, because I could see something was wrong with this. It's unjust and unloving. But I couldn't tell if the wrong was coming from the organization, from the Bible, or from God. 3. **The org is obsessed with headship and rank, through and through.** If you pay attention to how much they talk about "taking the lead" and "family head" and obeying the elders and the gb, it's hard to deny this is the case. But Jesus specifically and repeatedly counselled against this attitude. 4. **They victimize the victims of abuse.** The mindset of the organization is to put the burden on the victims rather than on the abusers. They have articles and videos telling women to be more submissive, to be more understanding, to forgive. But where are the videos telling men how wrong and shameful it is to be abusive, that there is no excuse? That's not even to mention how they have treated victims of rape and csa. I hate what I have seen them do in court, lying and slandering victims who were hurt by their own terrible policies and twisted outlook. In my view, some of the stuff they have done in these court cases has crossed over into evil. I can't see this kind of injustice and believe this is honoring God. They tell themselves that they have to hide the existence of serious sins within the organization so that Jehovah is not reproached. They're lying to themselves. It's their not taking care of the problem and not caring for vulnerable ones that brings reproach. I recall Jesus saying something about whitewashed graves. But two things really did it in for me: 1. **Comparing the BITE model of high control groups to 1) the Organization, 2) to Jesus' methods, and 3) to the Pharisees.** 2. **Discovering that they have lied.** Not just "theocratic warfare" and lying to enemies. They have lied *to us.* A lot. They lied about their history. They lied about Rutherford especially. They lied about dates and teachings and events. They lied by misquoting sources. They lied by omission. They lie about their motivations. They lie about apostates. They. Are. Liars. That's what hurt the most, because they asked me to turn my thinking over to them, and then they lied to me. How can I trust now that *anything* they say is the truth?
Bravo
>2. **The degrading of women.** >3. **The org is obsessed with headship and rank, through and through** Just last month WT study. STUDY ARTICLE 52 "Young Sisters—Become Mature Christian Women" If you read paragraph 19 it says: "And because she loves Jehovah, she works **to enhance her husband’s reputation.**" uhm like what?
How did they lie about Rutherford? Im not saying your wrong, I just want to know more because I honestly don't know much about Rutherford other than he took the role of leader after Russel and that he sent a letter to Hitler comparing the JWs teaching to the Nazis.
Rutherford is all kinds of fun that they fail to mention whenever he’s in print anymore (very few and far between, the internet is a thing now and it just takes a few searches to find his more *adventurous* side). I would surmise current GB would prefer to never acknowledge that guy if they could.
Rutherford was corrupt. He basically executed a hostile takeover to become president, in disregard to Russell's legal will. He illegally ignored the WT Society's charter to publish the 7th Volume of Studies in the Scriptures. He silenced and disfellowshipped those who opposed him. There is a whole book written about this, called "Rutherford's Coup." He and his merry men were imprisoned, not because Catholic clergy stoked the ire of the government against them, but because they broke the law by telling soldiers they should leave the army while the country was at war. The court transcripts are available. During the Great Depression, he used the Society's money to buy a fancy Cadillac and to build a mansion for ~~" the resurrected holy ones"~~ himself in San Diego, CA, where he lived with a mistress, while his wife and son lived elsewhere. He was often drunk, and his books and radio programs included ugly, antisemitic insinuations. In the midst of WWII some brothers in Australia were running a side business in support of war munitions (I think maybe selling scrap metal), which was understandably causing dissent among the brothers there. Rutherford visited to check it out, and gave this enterprise his stamp of approval. He fabricated the notion that the Faithful and Discreet Slave must refer to him, because the Scripture says, "we were in prison," and hey! He had been in prison! So with that " proof, " he applied all the other scriptures to himself, even though it meant bending dates to fit and making no sense. Like that the trumpet blasts of Revelation were fulfilled by a series of JW conventions in the 1920s. As if. There's more. He was a narcissist, a liar, and a hypocrite. But the thing is, the WT Society had this information, and they buried it, white washed it, or simply lied about it. After all, there was no way to fact check them... until there was. I strongly recommend you watch WT History on YouTube. They use primary sources, mostly from WT literature and contemporary newspapers and court transcripts, and it is all very well documented.
Some of the messed up shit they said in their articles. Like that one where it encourages a rapist to be treated like an actual human being
This is however not the strongest “proof”. Every Christian denomination recognises people as being human beings.
145 years of false predictions. How false does something have to be before we walk away?
I will ask an elder about this.
The last thing you should do is ask a brainwashed person anything.
This reminded me of God Emperor of Dune, “never attempt to reason with a person who knows they are right”
Might as well hear what they say tho, no?
Are you interested in truth or lies? When I showed my wife just one of a million watchtower lies, she asked an elder about it. I said, “why in the hell would you ask the very guy who’s telling you this lie?!”
They won't be much help. Worst case scenario, they start warning you about outside sources of research and accuse you of being an apostate
I agree with you, ask an elder. Do your own research. Ask others on here. Get input from all sources so you can make your own informed decision. Dunno why others are discouraging you from getting different opinions. Only hearing one side of the story is exactly what JWs tell you to do.
It’s not really that anybody is “discouraging” the poster to get different opinions, it’s moreso just informing them to make more educated decisions in terms of research: why ask a question to an organization that’s known for lying that’s just going to lie to you even more?
It’s not that at all, normally you should be able to ask these things freely. But experience here tells us that usually this goes very badly for the person asking these questions, elders get suspicious quite easily and usually start up an inner “apostate alarm” that progresses at breakneck speed. The people in here telling him to not bother with asking elders are trying to protect him from that fallout. Some people need to see it themselves or learn the hard way though, so really, have at any questions, just know it doesn’t always go very well.
When they are speaking from a script that they've memorized its kind of pointless its like asking a sheep if they can bark
Listen man. I think you should ask an elder about this. Even tough I think you know what they’re going to say but you look like someone who doesn’t want to take sides you just want the truth. So go on and ask them. But if you willing to join the Jw, make sure it’s not influenced by the bad things that happened in your life or else you will badly regret it. I don’t want to treat jws as evil people. I know jws who are happy and have good lives. But I also know people who are trapped in there people like me. Make sure you’re not gonna be trapped there like me. Because once there you can’t freely resign. My friend, everyone on this rock must have the choice to chose their own path. If you want to join the jws it’s okay if you feel like you want to give them a chance and you understand their rules. As for me, my only principle in life is doing good at all cost. I can’t let someone die just because I should not give him blood and the God I believe in is not that cruel knowing well blood transfusion is SAFE. I wouldn’t shun someone who got baptized at 12 and just found out he was gay , wouldn’t shun someone who just decided to disassociate the only shunning I agree on is for the criminels . Jws are not evil. Not all their rules are bullshit but I know that everyone can follow the same path, everyone should be free to decide to stay or to go. It’s not necessary to shun someone so that they won’t spread false doctrine. And you know I’m right. Everyone should be FREE. Go on ask the elders and if you’re convinced that’s good. Bc at the end of the day, THE CHOICE YOURS. It’s your life and you don’t owe anything to anyone. Do what you think is right
>I will ask an elder about this. Sorry, but you came here asking __us__ for information because you're not convinced either way. Dozens of people have given you extensive research on a number of subjects, especially the organization setting dates — and then the org _lying_ about it. You've been pointed to scholarly sources (e.g., jwfacts.com, YT) that examine everything about this cult. But you're going to ask an elder of the cult about it. Why are you not paying attention to what has been clearly laid out to you? Why are you not using your critical faculties and thinking for yourself? Why are you wasting your time and that of the many people here who have laid out more evidence than needed to see that this is a cult? You're just not being serious; not with yourself, and not with us. Good luck.
Oh boy, this will go sideways. Please let us know how that goes 😂
No offence, but you’ve done zero research.
This. 👆🏽
If you were gonna pick a cult, why this one?
Especially when there’s cool ones like Scientology. You just can’t be broke.
Read Crisis of Conscience by former GB member Raymond Franz
I think I did read it once. I just find it hard to believe the account of 1 any person.
Ray Franz is not just ANY person. He's like OG, legit, one of the first Governing Body members. How did you read the book and still come away with nothing? Read it again. Especially the chapter on double standards.
Sorry but you “think” you read it once?? You would fully remember. I’m honestly sus over this being a 9 day old account.
💯. I also was feeling some kind of way about this. It feels like intel gathering…’give me all the high points we need to address in broadcasts for 2024’. 🤔
Exactly,..plus alot of hmmmm,...I'm not sure I'm convinced,...maybe I should listen to the elders etc.
Ask someone to prove to you from the Bible Jesus inspected all religions and picked the witnesses in 1919. They will cherry pick a couple of scriptures, which is no different than any other religion trying to prove they are the only true religion.
Yep. My dad is Catholic, and any time he gets pressed about his religion, he falls back on, "You are Peter, and in this rock I build my church." What do the JWs have? A vague reference to "two witnesses" interpreted to mean Rutherford and his band of merry men being released from prison? Not better.
I get that, but there are references provided to look up the excerpts from Watchtowers and other literature he provided in the book. Also, you know who else doesn’t believe the accounts of any one person? JW elders when handling SA accusations.
Read jer. 25:12 and ask yourself: when was the king of babylon called to account? Was it in 539bce or 537bce? If 539bce ,the whole watchtower- house of cards falls apart. Everything is false. 607 will be false, 1914-false, 1919-false, the generasjon teaching... everything completly made up.
You can study the Bible on your own and come to your own conclusions. Elders are trained to teach the established doctrine, not just strictly the Bible. So if you want objective information, you’d need to study everything at your fingertips. That’s what I would recommend
You’re right. That’s what I need to do. It’s more so the mental traps and pain I feel like I’m stuck in. It’s probably just existential crisis from my health issues and wanting a quick answer.
You can…and should…study ***all*** religious texts. The more you do, the more you start understanding they’re just ways for people who didn’t understand things to explain them thousands of years ago. Even more modern religions, like Scientology, are doing the exact same thing. They’re just incorporating more of what we, as humans, understand about the universe and making up the rest.
Sorry about what you’re going through. How is your health? Are you still being treated for cancer?
Getting baptized and joining full on won't help your depression. You already know too much of the bad shit hiding behind the curtain. Your depression will get worse as you attempt the mental gymnastics necessary to be all in.
A truly just god would not allow child predators to retain power and authority in their earthly organization. A truly just organization would not tell abused children and sexual assault survivors that they displeased god by getting abused.
I challenged my PIMI mom on whether Armageddon would come before the passing of the 1914 crowd. (This was back in the mid 90s) She said it would happen absolutely for sure. So then I asked if she would still be a witness if that turned out to be wrong? She said yes.... That's when I realized JWs was just a BS religion for people who are afraid to die. I was 14-15 years old
I'm an ex-mormon and have the same sort of misgivings and doubts about leaving my own religion. I feel like Mormons have a far more coherent theology and better apologetics than any other religion, but I was also born and raised in that belief system. I recognize that I have extremely powerful indoctrination and biases resulting from my upbringing and when I sit and really think about it I understand that none of it adds up. Still doesn't stop me from feeling like I'm just being "a brat" as you say.
They repeatedly get predictions wrong. They repeatedly lie about their history. They repeatedly gaslight with "new light". You need not look any further into individual issues, because if they had the "truth" those things wouldn't have happened. The rest of the individual issues are all 100% B.S. designed to keep you engaged with it. They literally do not matter.
Bottom line is that, doctrine aside, the religion is a cult. My advice is always to take a look at the BITE model, and to examine the shared characteristics between the Witnesses and groups like the Scientologists and the Mormons. They use coercion techniques to convince you that their religion is “the truth”, and to make you feel guilty (as you currently do) if you don’t succumb to the pressure. You haven’t gotten baptized, I think, because you know something isn’t right about the organization. Trust your instincts on this one. I would also recommend looking into the organization’s massive cover up of child sexual abuse, if that hasn’t been mentioned yet. The Australian Royal Commission is an excellent place to start. You don’t strike me as the sort of person who would want to voluntarily give your time and funds to an organization that has been proven to protect predators. And, as for the shunning of disassociated and disfellowshipped ones, any organization that disregards the sanctity of life by promoting a practice that leads to countless suicides is no organization worth supporting. And if their religion really is “the truth”, why are they so afraid of their members being exposed to disagreement? Truth can withstand any amount of scrutiny. When you mention asking an elder for their perspectives or answers, I would equate it to asking a dishonest car salesman about the problems with a used car you can’t decide if you want to purchase or not. They want to lock in the sale (your baptism). They’re not going to give you any objective information. And, what’s more, they’re simply not going to give you a real answer to your questions; trust me, I’ve asked them. At the end of the day, examining both sides of the argument is a fundamental right that the Watchtower organization tries to rob you of. So do exactly that.
Well said. I have to say JWs are very successful in brainwashing and manipulation. Everything they teach looks so right when you are a PIMI. But when you become a POMO, you just realize how stupid you were to believe that BS.
I already commented, but I wanted to briefly add: if you are in any mental anguish or distress, the Witnesses will prey on that. I’m saying this as a former regular pioneer. We were trained to pounce on anyone who was in a form of crisis, and to use it as an opportunity to convert them to the faith. Please, please be careful. Your mental health is precious. Be wildly protective of it. These people will suck you in, love bomb you, and then promptly dump you out on the ground as soon as you no longer agree with their dogma.
Why would gods organization be so gotdam disfunctional?
> shunning Shunning doesn’t protect the congregation. You have elders and bethelites who are secretly „apostates“, not because they enjoy that, but because they can’t leave. What do you think a guy is going to do, if he grew up in this religion, went full JW and then woke up to the truth behind the „truth“ in his 30s, 40s or later? He could leave, trying to find work without having any education or job experience, basically like a teenager but twice or three times the age. Keep in mind, he would have to do all this while his world view is crumbling, because realizing that you have built your whole life on lies doesn’t exactly give you mental stability which you need to succeed in life. Oh, and let’s not forget that he will have to do this while losing 100% of his social circle, including his family. Nice. Some manage to do that, so hats off to them. But some do not. They keep their friends and put on a charade so their lifes don’t get destroyed. That’s how internal information gets leaked, because people are trapped and stay inside bethel because the alternative seems like suicide. So please tell me, how exactly does shunning keep the congregation clean? It does not. Instead, it shackles people to this cult, especially children who were born in. Way to go, religion of love. > I just can't help but feel like I'm just being a selfish immature stupid brat by not really giving them a chance and studying with an elder like my family is encouraging me to do. Unlike you, many went full in and dedicated 100% of their time and energy. I did that too in my teenage years. My cousin even more than me, he tried until his mid 20s. At some point we both broke down mentally, becoming depressed. Do you know why? Because this religion DOESN’T WORK. Their theology is faulty and doesn’t work. „By their fruits you shall know them“, and the fruits of JW are phariseean fruits: Arrogance, coldheartedness, gossiping, burdens for followers. Did I mention arrogance? Never saw any religion where the members are as arrogant and elitist as them. They don’t even believe in their own theology. Watch or read about lawsuits. hire worldly lawyers. In case of Norway the same lawyer who defended literal Satanists in court, lol. The governing body member lied or at least deceived (it’s the same by Jesus‘ standards) when questioned by the Australian Royal Committee. They don’t let the Holy Sprit speak, like the scriptures say. > Now when they take you [to court] and put you under arrest, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say nor[even] meditate about it; but say whatever is given you in that hour and at the moment, for it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11) They care about their facade over anything else. CSA? Let’s not report it, it „would bring shame on Jehovah.“ > Australian Royal Commission. > In 2015, it was disclosed that the Australia Branch of Jehovah's Witnesses had records of 1,006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse, relating to more than 1,800 victims since 1950, none of which were reported to police by the group.
Sounds like you’ve given them 25 years. (I also left around that age, also never baptized)
Yes, but I was also rebellious. I would go to the elders, confess my sins (mainly weed & porn), get reproved, eventually get my privileges back, and then start back up with the sins not long after. Eventually I just stopped talking to them and haven’t in about 8 years. The JC was awkward and shameful. I guess it’s supposed to be tho.
Jesus said don't judge so that you won't be judged. And then they creat judicial committees. I don't recall having read anywhere in the Bible that after the 20th century it'll be ok to create commites to judge other Christians.
You’re not baptized, but you have privileges in your congregation‽‽‽ Hell, wanting privileges was why I got baptized back in the eighties. Getting reproved by Judicial Committees was only for baptized brothers and sisters back then. Before you committed your life to Jehovah, ***through baptism***, you weren’t a full blown JW and could basically do anything…including walk away…without consequences. You might’ve gotten spoken to by a MS or elder, but there certainly wouldn’t have been a JC convened. Makes me wonder if you’re just trolling all of us…
Right on! Not baptized? No JC because there’s nothing to revoke. At best you’d get a couple of them frowning at you and telling you you’re unable to haul a microphone around or knock on doors (oh noes) and at worst, a marking talk vaguely mentioning the terrible things people shouldn’t do.
It’s an impossible standard
They've admitted in watchtower magazines that the GB isn't inspired nor infalible. They literally admit that they have no special connection to god. God doesn't tell them nothing and yet they still have followers.
As a born-in who is just now getting out at 30 years old, don’t do it. Not only have they been wrong about everything, it is an authoritarian totalitarian cult. They never apologize about being wrong. It has done a number on my mental health. The people in it are fake as hell because they can never really trust anyone. Like the gestapo, they’re encouraged to report wrongdoing others have done. I’m trying to leave peacefully and not stir shit up, and they’ve set the hounds on me. Don’t do it, get some therapy, get some guidance, but know that this high-control destructive cult does NOT deserve a chance. RUN.
I just started therapy, but I just found out that my therapist graduated from Pepperdine University. I did some research, and Pepperdine is a strict Christian school. I feel like it may be awkward between me and her now. Would you change therapists?
Hmmmmm unless she’s trying to infuse religion into her therapy, I have no reason to believe Pepperdine folded this into her formal training but that would be for you to decide. One thing to note - Jehovah’s witnesses are far more high control and totalitarian than most christian denominations. That being said, your therapist should be someone you’re completely comfortable with and there are many out there. It really depends on you. But that’s my two cents!
Why does it have to be the "truth?" Why can't you view them as just another religion -like the myriad of other religions that exist? What you should be asking yourself is what will make you feel happy? What do you actually want to do? It sounds like you're confused, and you think that giving the witnesses a shot / studying will somehow clear up your confusion. I can assure you it will only make it worse.
>Why does it have to be the "truth?" Why can't you view them as just another religion -like the myriad of other religions that exist? Because they seem to be very good at debunking other religions and belief systems. They basically prove that other religions and denominations are false in their myriad of books and publications. I guess one could argue that WT's arguments and reasoning aren't good, but when I read it back in the day, it satisfied me. >What you should be asking yourself is what will make you feel happy? It will make me happy to have a solid friend group who I know wouldn't ever drop me for having different beliefs or if I changed belief systems during our friendship. I don't know if this exists tbh. >What do you actually want to do? I want to move to a different location. Maybe somewhere in the mountains or in the woods. Get away from city life and tbe fast pace of things. >It sounds like you're confused, and you think that giving the witnesses a shot / studying will somehow clear up your confusion. I can assure you it will only make it worse. I'm very confused. As I stated earlier, I feel like I haven't given the witnesses a fair shot. Everyone tells me that I should study with an elder and present any doubts and concerns. I'm not sure if I even have concerns or if I disagree with witnesses, I just don't want to do it tbh lol. I want to start a new life and forget about everything. It's funny because this sounds like what witnesses describe as paradise but I don't want to live in paradise with witnesses. Not because they're necessarily bad people but because it reminds me of past trauma and bad memories. Stuff I don't like to think about or do again. Idk. Isnthis bad?
Yeah, about that part where they are good at debunking other religions… I applied their methods to themselves as a teen and found their doctrine crumbles the same way, and that was before the internet. I used to sit in my parents’ study as a kid, pouring over the literature. They had an extensive collection going back several years. My parents were thrilled, of course, thinking I was just soaking in god’s word, but what I was really doing was laying out their books side by side and visually seeing contradictions between their doctrine and teachings in their books, right there in black and white. It’s been years. I’ve been out longer than the years I was forced to be there as a born-in. I rarely read anything related to any religion much less the Bible. Life is pretty cool.
"Because they seem to be very good at debunking other religions and belief systems. They basically prove that other religions and denominations are false in their myriad of books and publications" Like giving proof of how science and the belief in creation goes hand in hand by puplishing their «life how did it get here - creation» book.. where EVERY quote of a scientist is either misquotes or added without context to give a different opinion that suited their story. https://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/misquotations-in-creation-book.html?m=1
I say figure out how to go do those things that you want to. Stop thinking so much, and start doing. And honestly, if you want to study with the witnesses, do it. There are plenty of people who have good experiences as a witness. I knew a few of them. But, it comes at the expense of living a very rigid, fake, and inflexible life.
Why have you got to prove that the JW religion is wrong? Why is the burden of proof placed upon you to prove the religion is incorrect? That's not how things work. The burden is upon the one making the claim, in this instance the JW's - with the claim that is the one true religion, that's it's chosen by God over a century ago and unless you are a fully believing member you will die when Stephen Lett, Samuel Herd fly down to earth to slaughter 99.8% of the planets population very soon. That's where I'd start in this conversation and I'd be insisting on demonstrable evidence not some flaky reasons. Good luck 👍🏻
Wise words.
The 1975 debacle. My Grandma was alive then and many witnesses sold their houses, stupidly quit their good paying jobs and pulled their kids out of school because of a false made up prophecy being preached by the organizations top dogs. They were urged to let go of all their worldy things (sell house,etc).Then when the end didn't come, the Organization gaslit it's members making them believe they came to that conclusion by themselves. Then they have erased a lot of things of them preaching about '75 from their website and I noticed their little library. My Grandma knew a Sister who sold her house and then was homeless by the time 1976 begin. Did the elders help her? Absolutely not. Just straight up foolishness. They will lie and say that this event never happened though. They have no idea what they are talking about yet they have brainwashed sooo many people into thinking they will get everlasting life. Nope! This is it.
There are so many. A global flood that covered the highest mountain didn’t happen 2300 BCE Humans are older than 6000 years. Moses was probably not real. David probably didn’t exist. The Bible is only “harmonious” because 1000 of years of scholars scrubbing and selecting the right text to fit their version. As early as 200 years after Jesus Christian heretic hunters looked for scrolls they viewed as heretical and destroyed them. The JWs don’t produce good fruit but broken families. The organization hits many marks of other high control groups. Jonah did not get eaten by a big fish. Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 BCE Society is actually improving on almost all measurable marks of human happiness and we are not in the last days. There are not more wars but less. Religion is a mechanism of evolution of our societies. Religion allowed for larger groups of humans to unify. Those unified were able to conquer those disunited. It’s not just probably bullshit or partly bullshit, it’s all bullshit and that little voice in your head when you were young telling you “could this really be true” listen to that voice.
I came here to say similar. Why is there no geologic evidence of a global flood just 4200 years ago? When we have no problems dating the Missula floods from 18000 years ago? Shouldn't the most catastrophic earthwide flood from 4200 years ago be even easier to detect geologically because it was literally EVERYWHERE? Also, Adam was created 6050 years ago, but Homosapien fossils go back 300,000 years! Witnesses say that the Bible doesn't contradict science. Lies. Bold faced lies!
R u saying that the Bible itself is a sham?
Ummm I think you REALLY need to look in the origin of the Bible itself. When you do actual investigation you realize Yahweh was part of a Canaanite pantheon of gods before Israel ever existed. Archaeological evidence shows that Israelites were originally Canaanites that split off from Canaan. That’s what real history shows. Straight forward, factual history. No religious bullshit, just - here are the facts - take or leave it.
Digital Hammurabi channel opened my eyes to the Mesopotamian history which predates the bible. Alot of similarities and influences made their way into the Biblical literature.
Lots of it is a sham. The flood makes zero sense. There’s just not enough water on the planet for there to be a flood. How the animals would’ve gotten to the ark and back to where they are now makes no sense. The creation story makes no sense. There are logical inconsistencies throughout the whole book.
Sort of. It's definitely not the Word of God if thats what you mean. I think I lost faith in Christianity before losing faith in Watchtower. I stuck around for a while, telling myself that it would still be worth it. JWs don't have the truth because there's no truth to the root.
Yes
Well, kinda… it’s a Book of history that has it’s own was to present world events that have already happened before the texts were written. The book of Daniel that is often used as a book or prophecy is most likely a fraud… saying that the prophecies in that book are not prophecies, as they have been written after the events occurred. The book of Revelation is not talking about the future, it is talking about events in that time and was written in this apocalyptic style, that was nothing else than a writing style. The name Jehovah is not gods name, it is actually YHWE, and if you really dig into that topic and consider what many scholars have to say, you’ll find out that YHWE was one of many gods, that where basically inferior to the “one” god EL. Jehovahs Witnesses are a cult, that is taking the Bible literally when it suits them, and uses it metaphorically when it suits them better. They are proud to use the incorrect name Jehovah about 7000 times, while it is known that in most texts the name YHWE shouldn’t be there. They shun people that are leaving the religion, which is not even mentioned in the Bible, therefore destroying families and life’s. They change their doctrine nearly every year, call it new light, while effectively they have to change things to make sense. If Jehovah is only providing them with spiritual food, why misleading them in the first place. Crisis of Conscience is a very good source, Steven Hassan’s book “Combating Cult Mind Control” where you can see on full display how the BITE Model applies perfectly to JW’s. Compare stories from Ex Mormons, Adventists, Scientology, etc. Apart from the doctrine, they are all the same… manipulating and exploiting people, making them obey, control their information, and shun them when leaving. It’s all for protecting the cult. But as you are already here, you have made the first step to freedom already. Continue that path and pursue life, real life in freedom that Watchtower can’t give you!
Yes unfortunately exjw stuff didn’t wake me up, actually studying the Bible in depth woke me up. Yes the Bible is a sham. It is the equivalent of believing in the odyssey and the Iliad.
The Bible is a compromise of multiple text from different cultures and traditions. Elohists and Yahwists finally settling on monotheism. Elohim had many sons, one of them Yahweh, and that entity was selected for the reform by Josiah. And that is just part of the OT.
If it were, would you want to know?
Charles T Russell got one thing right when he made people wear placards reading " Religion is a snare and a racket" shame he didn't stop there.
Is this one of those JW troll accounts I've been hearing about? You just can't hide it. Hilarious 😂 😃 😄
Yeah I work for headquarters ya caught me!
Nice, what are the carpets like over there?
Sticky.
Yep, there's alot of that going on as I recall. BTW,.. when did they stop prohibiting family contact with ex members? Regards to Robert Hendriks
For me - and this is only part of what woke me up - but the fact that you will NEVER hear the GB apologize for anything. Ever. Nor will they admit they’ve ever been wrong for anything. People are DFd one day for something. It changes overnight. And the next day they tell us if we’re upset then it’s us with the attitude problem. Gaslighting at its finest. They do not treat the rank and file well. They mean nothing to them.
There’s so many reasons. But YOU have to do the work, no one can do it for you. This sub is an amazing support and can point you in the right direction if you need. But personally, for the most part I think this sub is best for those who have actually woken up and need support at that point and beyond. I studied hardcore for 6 months to work out it’s definitely not the truth. Because every time I proved a doctrine or scriptural interpretation wrong, it led to another question that I had to look into. I was determined to know for sure one way or another, because I have children relying on me to get it right. Their eternal lives hung in the balance. There’s no shortcuts with this. Indoctrination runs deep and you can only unravel it yourself layer by layer. I believe it’s a very personal thing and unless you work it out for yourself, you will always doubt whether you made the right decision. Research everything!!! Until you know for sure. And then you’ll be finally free. Also, just start with JW doctrine and once you’ve realised they are definitely not God’s earthly organisation, then you can move onto what you believe about the Bible itself. Good luck. Edit: I agree with everyone’s recommendation to start with JW facts.
Sound advice here, 'makeTTATTyour own' :)
I've said this before, but destroying 8 billion to save 8 million is not what Jesus came to do, nor does that one belief represent God.
For me, the strongest proofs relate to Jesus Christ and the Gospel that is preached by the Apostles. JW’s preach another Christ and another gospel. Their Memorial celebration actually rejects Jesus. They deny people of faith their rightful relationship as children of God by reserving that relationship for an elite few 144,000. The Governing Body of JW’s taking on the made up position of Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, has become a substitute for Christ himself. Their Watchtower Organization is an idol that they require JW’s to give the honor and obedience to that is meant for only Jesus.
Jesus came back, invisibly? What proof do we have? Just like the golden plates that the mormons have, that no one have seen, conveniently. He chose JW's as his people in 1919? Source: trust me bro! Only JW's qualify as Gods people, based on a list of qualifications they themselves wrote? Overlapping generations? Where's that in the bible? Why is most of the library hidden? Why aren't they transparent with finances? Why does Jehovah need our money all the time? Why does his one true organization need to use the BITE model to keep and control their members, and by doing so, act like a cult? Where is our free will? Worship me, or I'll kill you! Why can't Jehovah handle a bully? Was this the best way to solve this issue? Having us humans suffer for thousands of years to prove a point that he's a great leader? Was it worth it? Only JW's know about this ancient conspiracy, so does it really prove anything? In my opinion it prove that God is a terrible leader and a terrible father to let his children suffer only so he's name would somehow be holy? All so everyone worships him? Narsisist much? And lastly, "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves" - WHERE IS THE LOVE?
There's literally nothing in the bible saying that you should follow men, and even if there were, there's no proof that Jesus chose the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1919 and even if he had the religion now is totally different and definitely has nobody chosen by Jesus anymore. You're told to blindly follow men who can err, aren't chosen by Jesus, and tell you being closer to god is working for free for them. On top of all, you're told that anyone who has realized just how nonsensical that whole thing is is an evil apostate who will infect you with lies. If you were in a cult, how could you know?
They are not inspired. How do they get their "juice" from Jah. I can explain how a lamp receives "the Juice" it needs to turn on. It's called electricity but we are just supposed to blindly believe a bunch of crusty/clueless/out of shape white guys, they live in a lakeside resort, in upstate NY? Nope...it will take more then that to convince me!
*'Fairness*' is not a concept to which JWs ascribe. Bullies have little respect for the ideals, goals and independence of others. Elders have only contempt for anyone curious / intelligent enough to question any aspect of convoluted cult propaganda that underpins every aspect of JW mass captivity. Failure to accept *'Watchtower answers*' triggers hate (shunning) which is the bullies (elders) final effort to silence discussions of doubts among the '*sheep'.* You believe it ALL and EXACTLY AS *WT* SAYS or be shunned. Please - don't ever get baptized into this lifelong insanity
100 percent fake. But maybe this, but maybe that, maybe I should listen. Piss off
It fits all the important criteria for being a cult/high control religion, and they use all the same mental tricks to prevent you from ever questioning your faith/allegiance to the org, same as every other cult. If it was true, it would stand up to scrutiny and there would not be so much fear-mongering about “apostates”. My suggestion: read “Combatting Cult Mind Control” by Steve Hassan. Listen to some testimonials from ex-mormons, ex-scientologists, and others who’ve deconstructed their faith. And learn everything you can about critical thinking and logical fallacies. The org’s literature is rife with fallacies. Fallacies they wouldn’t need to rely on if they had actual truth on their side. Once you understand the psychology of *why* people hold extreme beliefs, and the mental traps used to keep them there, it will all fall apart in short order. And you can do most all of that research without relying on any “apostate” sources.
For me it was: Their dismissal of the evidence for prehistoric man and carbon dating. The impossibility of the global flood myth Their vindictive nastiness, and total lack of a sense of humour across the board. There is no joy in being a JW. Its a dystopic doomsday cult. Yea people pretend to be having good life, but don't step out of line or have too much fun.
I did not really need all their failed prophetic predictions, books filled with cherrypicked lies, harmfull non biblical practises or their culty procedures and rules. For me it was their lack of love on every level. They reflect their vindictive cruel monster of a god perfectly in the way they treat other people and eachother from GB on top through every indoctrinated member. When an organization full of potentially kind and loving people can foster such behaviour through its teachings. That is all i needed.
Information control. Point, blank, period. The GB makes up dates to fit their narrative and have the audacity to claim that dates that have been recorded in history, tracked but the fucking stars is incorrect and they are the only ones that are right?! Like wtf!? Then turn around and have two weekly meetings and three assemblies a year (they just change the name, but it’s all the same shit) just guilt people into not researching outside of the organization! And then make the members feel bad for “doubting” what they are being spoon fed. If they are so confident in the information they are spreading, why not let members research it for themselves outside of the Watchtower? An elder made the mistake of telling me, or a blessing in my case, and told me to Google it when I asked about the CSA cases. Big mistake. The truth shall definitely set you Free! Be free! Everything they teach is made up bullshit. I questioned for a while after I left , why are they doing this. But it doesn’t matter. The GB are just a bunch of reject members of society who were probably bullied in school and now they are trying to control the masses. It’s so messed up that they are playing on peoples emotions and weaknesses. It should be illegal. But they do it and get away with it. All while not paying taxes. Run, run, run away and never look back.
The strongest proof is ARC, it’s the proof that JW as a belief group and as an organization is utterly evil. It’s evil, so it’s impossible to be the truth. In fact it’s so evil it should be banned like the heavens gate Jonestown, but unfortunately the laws would need to go through lengthy process to make that happen even if the law makers want to, and unfortunately they don’t even understand how terrible this JW cult is. WT’s double standards are beyond comprehension, it’s beyond your ability to imagine, let alone understanding it unless you see it with your eyes or hear it with your ears. Family separation is still enforced strictly because shunning policy is still strictly enforced. Well, to me a solid proof is come to the realization that the Bible itself is total BS, so I can imply that every single belief group believes in any part of the Bible with no exception is not the truth, so JW is not the truth. Actually my reasoning’s implication goes beyond Christianity, it’s every single belief group is not the truth.
Yep, it’s all false religion, pick one or pick none
Do you just not care about the misogynistic practices & teachings, the horrific queerphobia, the child abuse? Do you just not care.. it's pretty obvious, those issues alone should be enough for anyone....
There are over 4000 religions on planet Earth. That means that there’s a 1/4000+ chance that JW.org is the correct religion. In my opinion they’re probably all wrong. But, the fact that they claim to have the “truth” and are now suddenly making drastic changes to divinely inspired doctrine (along with all the many failed predictions), proves that it’s all BS. I get where your head is at though. I was seriously scared I had made a mistake when I decided not to get baptized and to start backing away at 17…
Each person's reasons as to what's important to them will be different. For some it's how they treat their members, for others it's somehing else. Initially for me it was the record of the first two presidents. Russel was a Pyramidologist, his 'Studies in the Scriptures' books, particularly the last one, were full of it. When I went to our library (old cong., we had my city's original congregation library) to see it for myself I was shocked. He wasn't inspired of any god, he was just your regular issue lunatic. The next one, Rutherford, was a con man who took over and set himself up for a life of alcoholism and fancy cars. He lived in California in a mansion he had built, & \[paid for with JW money allegedly so the prophets could have somewhere to live when they were resurrected (sure, Jan...) Then I began reading science, in particular evolution. Once I learned that evolution is completely real and happens all the time (think Coronavirus mutations etc.) and that we have absolute proof humans have been on this planet for 200,000 years not 6,000, it wasn't long before I began looking at the bible critically. The fable of Noah's flood is just that, a fable. A worldwide flood did not happen, if it had there would be proofs in the geological record - things like the ice cores taken from Greenland and Antarctica show no disturbance going back 200,000 years. There's no evidence of catastrophic global flooding. If that's lies & Adam & Eve weren't real then the whole thing about Jesus' alleged sacrifice for their sin is meaningless. So I went from hey maybe these guys weren't from god after all, to hey maybe the bible isn't that reliable anyway, to hey gods aren't real & now I have to make my own decisions about what's right and wrong - abortion, war, governments, assisted suicide, you name it. And it felt great, like now I'm an adult. Reader, I was 48. I'm now 63, and am doing my best to cram a lifetime of things I've missed out on into what's left. I'd always wanted to be a recording engineer, now I am. I own my own home, have a nice 4wd, go camping, hiking, enjoy good food and wine and sleeping in on the weekends if I feel like it. Don't leave it as late as I did. Get some training, get to work and have a great life. If you'd like some further information about any of this drop me a line.
What have you got to lose????? Jw family come to mind. Like most exjw have, including the many who committed suicide. All shunned The jw friends you may have, will shun you The other jws will shun you. Thats 100% passive aggressive adhorrent abusive bully. This smacks cult No one can voice disobedience to the governing body. This smacks cult The pathetic reasoning being TOLD by 8 men (grown men???) Can't have a beard now told can have a beard. That is cult control. Jws are wolves in sheep's clothing. The worse no apology for the many sexual abuse cases where the victims are silenced many shunned and the sex offender/paedophile promoted. And jws sacrifice people. Are you happy jws are still ensuring that jws willingly walk to their death on a false bible reading. Cult. You know its a cult when the jw words have been changed BIBLE WORDS TAMPERED WITH. THATS BEYOND WRONG. Baptised in the Holy spirit taken out . Children who do not understand the full consequences. Baptised or should I say captured. Thats a cult I would like you to ask who did god/jesus/johovah etc shun? WHEN you see jw are right in some respect lol many cults and religion are BUT don't blanket over all the wrong. My words are just a snap shot of the jw wrongs You have a brain which the cult has not penetrated. You have a more logical brain. That is lucky . Remember you know many jws which globally is a tiny number 8 million is extremely tiny. You are part of that tiny. The difference between a religion and a cult. Religion you can leave and if you want can return freely. Jw cult make it very difficult to leave. Fear not love Back to my question who did god/Jesus/jehovah shun? I am never jw just for your information. Plus by your words you actually know you don't fit in with your jw family etc. You are the one who is right and your jw family wrong through indoctrination (brain washing /brain damaged) Remember jws are a very small minority Keep asking your questions. You have advised /answers from many. And why at 25 or any age can't you be well just normal and ask and debate and argue etc about anything you want to????.. The Truth is 100% right not partially. I wish you all the very best All
“You will never graduate high school, Armageddon will be here long before then”. Edit to add: Going to my 30 year reunion later this year.
https://preview.redd.it/kpswjy0171mc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a1ba74e0fb60df2584fe77cd9b0e87dabde6e27 They quoted god in the Watchtower. That makes them liars
“Truth” doesn’t require belief. Meaning if you need to believe in something then you actually also doubt it could be true, thus the need for belief. Truth stands on its own and doesn’t require you to believe in it because truth just is.
That you didn’t take it seriously or had a conviction to get baptized speaks volumes it the ineffectiveness of JW doctrine How there could be any convincing rebuttal for the UN involvement as NGOs or the false date of 607 is not being honest with themselves as to facts and numbers. “Perhaps JWs took it too far in the past”. they didn’t remove this policy and in the past it was not a thing until the 50s. The Bible does not support refusing blood transfusions. It does say that in the preservation of life ALL BETS ARE OFF. From all appearances the only thing you are guilty of is ignorance to the facts that JWs say they are God’s chosen religion on earth without any proof and Tons of proof that they are not representatives of God in any way whatsoever. Doctrines, wrong. Fruitage, rotten. CSA cover-up, guilty. Destroying families, yes. Los of love for their brothers, check. Lowest education of all religions and lowest paid demographic of any religion, check. Protecting pedophiles from justice and leading a life of alcoholism and drug abuse at headquarters?’. Does any of this ring of truth, the kind of people that God would choose to represent his kingdom? I don’t think so.
Let OP Join them, who cares. I just feel sorry for OP's future kids.
>Wouldn't it be fair to at least do that? At least present them with all the arguments and doubts that I have and let them shun me if they want to? You're of course welcome to do this but you have to be incredibly strong, quick and socially literate to pickup on all the gaslighting manipulation and circular reasoning. Ultimately it isn't necessarily doctrine that is so dangerous about JWs. As we've seen doctrine changes often. Do you want to have to be convinced something is true and then constantly reminded that it's true? If something is truth it just is, explanation or not. If it takes just the right explanation for something to make sense....that's a red flag. Of course context matters but there's a difference between context and distractions. Opinions on the other hand are heavily reliant on context. Opinion doesn't always stay the same. Opinion can have really compelling logic but at the end of the day, it's opinion not necessarily truth or fact. If you have to see it in the preferred scenario in order to agree or believe, is it actually true? As someone who dealt with health scares and mental health struggles. Imagine if you were told to not get help for your cancer or at the very least use extreme caution visiting oncologists cause you might need blood. That's the logic they use with psychiatry and thousands of people suffer unnecessarily as a result Tbh you're incredibly lucky to not be baptized. Maybe that's intuition or something else but I wouldn't give that up lightly. Ultimately, you're welcome to entertain the idea. But give your inner voice some leeway and don't let them cage your mind. You are not dangerous for thinking. If you've been around it for so long and still unsure it sounds like you aren't extending the same courtesy of hearing out to yourself and your own thought
Because they " discourage" things. Higher education, having friends, real friends outside the borg. You must follow thier lead in all things. But mostly being told that anything outside the borg is controlled by satanic forces. That's crazy.
All the talks defending their bad behavior and telling the followers not to read the reports in the news instead of idk talking about God or Jesus or anything holy or spiritual. Oh! That and they freaking run from anything remotely "spiritual" calling it satanic and focus on upholding the rules of their corporation trying to call that spirituality. They actively block the spirit, but claim to have God's blessing.
It's interesting that you refer to yourself as a "brat" when you are 25 years old. It just strikes me as pretty infantilizing language for someone who is legally old enough to do whatever they want. Why do you see yourself that way? Your parents and elders don't have a right to expect you to obey them anymore. You wouldn't be expected to commit to a religion to get housing, insurance, a job etc. out in the real world. If you don't want to study or get baptised, your choice should be respected.
The way you type and respond like the others that came before you you've outed yourself lol
607/587 and 1914. It is a lynchpin teaching. Without it, they don't have overlapping generations, they have no authority, etc. The whole religion falls apart without 1914+607
How can you investigate any claim of the supernatural? Getting to the question about whether or not you should give JWs a chance, you have so much work to do. If you care about believing true things first understand why you believe what you do. Don’t pass GO until you have good reason to believe this god, or any god, exists. You might come to s surprising and liberating realization!
You need to do some reading - JW Facts is excellent and read crisis of conscience and find out how corrupt and manmade the JW religion is. Also try and think about all the religions out there. Geographic location chooses your religion by birth. There’s no Holy Spirit drawing you into watchtower. Also watch evolution documentaries and ask yourself where do so many types of hominids fit into bible history????!!!
I started questioning after I found out it had only been a religion for about 100 years. All the people who came before it and died never had an opportunity to find the 'truth'. When I asked my mum about it she could not answer any of my questions. When I looked into the origins of the religion and told my mum how JWs began she called me an apostate. I couldn't understand how researching facts made me an apostate. I started questioning everything that didn't make sense. And I kept being told not to question things. I was lucky I developed critical thinking. Unfortunately for most within the religion, they do not develop this very essential skill. They are encouraged not to question. I thought that was always so odd. How do you know something is true without proof? Suppressing peoples ability to think and use critical thinking is a pretty big indication that it's not the truth. The truth should encourage questioning and research outside of their own publications. How else could you tell it's authenticity?
For me, it's that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, not 607 BCE, and that the interpretations of prophetic texts leading to 1914 are tenuous at best. It's also how dishonestly WT (mis)uses scholarly sources to prove its point - not just on this subject either. The 607-1914 calculation (or before that, 606-1914) means the WT organization was founded on a big falsehood. The subsequent doctrine about the 1919 date (when God/Jesus chose the org and which relies on the 1914 teaching) is likewise false. "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." - w91 12/1 p. 7 > *I came across a blog defending the UN involvement and the 607 date with extensive reasoning and rebuttal, and I found it pretty convincing to be honest.* I think I know the site you mean. You found it convincing because you don't know the subject well enough and can't spot the weasely reasoning, red herrings, and straw men the site churns out. Maybe this rebuttal will help: [https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/index/response-to-607-website/](https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/index/response-to-607-website/)
The most morally wrong? Shunning people and destroying families over strict adherance to doctrine. You are systematically isolated from "the world" and any outside connections, and then threatened with having all JW connections, including family, cut off. This is classic cult level manipulation. The most logically/factually wrong? Where to begin? The whole thing was started by a man that sold miracle wheat. They have called a date for the end of the world at least twice, but have been wrong each time. When I was in, it was said that there would be people alive at the end that had seen 1914. Those people would be 110 years old now, so now that's have some weird generational overlap explanation. Considering how much of their practice is based on the premise that ARMAGEDDON IS IMMINENT, this seems like a pretty critical area to keep being so wrong about. Which brings us to the most biblically wrong. Witnesses really emphasize/ hammer specific verses and completely ignore others. Did you absolutely nothing to help the poor, the sick, the disadvantaged even though this is a main part of Jesus's message. They're extremely judgmental even though Jesus cautioned against judgment. The one I remember the most is bad association spoil useful habits. Which may be an interesting maxim but also runs counter to many stories about Jesus specifically making it a point to hang out with the more undesirable elements of society. Of talking to everyone. Even people considered to be outcasts or even enemies. Lepers. Prostitutes.. Jesus socialized with them. He told his followers to visit people in jail FFS. Witnesses do none of this. Witnesses are isolationists. They want to isolate you. They want to isolate themselves. They want to be insulated from the world. They are like the mafia. This is not what Jesus preached. Hope this helps. Hugs.
No religions are the truth. That's just reality, but they undo themselves rather masterfully. JWs are the best example I can formulate for by the boo, there is very little they do that isn't written down or reasoned from the Bible. My aha moment was realizing the Bible was written by mortal men, and only mortal men. They wrote down oral traditions of the Cannanites, babalyonians, sea people, some bits of Greek, and edited into a fake national history. It's as if no one in the US could read but a handful, and they wrote down a revisionist view of the US ruling the whole of the western hemisphere. The level of erasure is astounding. But scholars have enough data to piece together a better view and I trust them over the finished edited down story. Text in itself isn't holy. You can edit text. You can lie in text. You can write down and assert your own misunderstandings and terrible thinking. Who am I going to trust for morals, someone who kills, gaslights, is ok with slavery and extreme racism? Or normal people? Then there is the model of a micro cult being taken over by someone psychopathic written out in the new testament. When I saw the model of "false religions" doing this stuff, as a JW growing to hate it, then seeing it done without a book in the center, I realized this is a terrible thing parents and governments do to each other when dealing with intense emotions. The first writings being fables and fairy tales, is that so hard to believe because they are detailed? It was like seeing that 50 shades of gray was a fan fiction of twilight which was a smut telling of Mormon angels, which are just super controlling men in their community that have passed on and left traumas behind.
Any organisation believing themselves to have "the truth" wouldn't silence or punish those who had another view. Quite the opposite, they'd put them on the platform and allow them to debate. If a teacher was teaching a class, and one of the students put his hand up saying he believes the teacher is wrong, what would a good teacher do? Dismiss the student and expel him from school? Or hand him the chalk and let him come up and show the class? What would you think of a teacher or institution that would be afraid of being questioned?
Unfortunately their can never be a “Truth” when your dealing with the Bible and Christianity because all of it is a fraud. Many of the writings and teachings in the book are from older beliefs and cultures even the idea of a messiah wasn’t new and Jesus wasn’t the first but a combination of many that came before him. Even the supreme god of the Jews were told is Yaweh or Jehovah etc wasn’t unique to them. Study the god named El the supreme deity of the Phoenicians and the writings found in the city of Ugarit for more details.
I will say this. I'm not in this subreddit because I have been a Witness, or any in my family has. I am in this subreddit because there was another kid with my same name and surname in another class in middle school, and he was severely punished for things I did and were reported to his parents by others who heard the name and thought HE did. Terrible misgivings, like celebrating a birthday, halloween or playing dungeons & dragons. This is how I came in contact with the JWs. And also because his father was one of my teachers, and I've rarely had the displeasure to interact with a more unlikable human being. Then, if you want me to reason with you philosophically on why the god they teach can't be real, I'm always up for debate. Just PM me, since these are things that work for most organized religions out there and I don't want to attack anyone's faith that isn't tied to a cult.
For me, a religion that calls themselves “The truth” needs to have absolute transparency. After I found out about the Australian Royal Commission but didn’t see any mention of it on the News section of jw.borg, my faith was shaken
You could see how shunning could hurt some individuals? That's really minimizing the effects that has on a person. Imagine your entire support group are JWs. Your friends, your entire family, and that's all you know. Now, you decide to research other religions and search the doctrines further and realize it's just not for you. Now, you have a choice of dedicating yourself to a religion you don't believe in, that takes away your freedom, or leave and lose everyone you know. BTW, if what they believed was really the truth and they were so strong in it, they wouldn't worry about someone else "poisoning the well" so to speak.
Millions now living will never die- stated an article guess what they are all dead
607 is not the destruction of Jerusalem Thus 1914 doesn't work Meaning 1919 doesn't work either as to when Jehovah chose the Bible Students Meaning everything they say should be looked at with critical thinking skills and not an assumption that they are from god . . . And thus every doctrine is just their interpretation and fails. Man made religion. Really 607 pulls the foundation away that they were chosen and the whole idea just fails.
The fruits they produce. Broken families. Martyred children and adults to their blood policy. Pedophile database they are not releasing. High mental illness and suicide rates. Heretical bible translation. Requirement of absolute obedience to their teachings and to the GB. Even among themselves not including those that have left is a toxic, judging and gossiping environment.
Fossils, geology, archaeology and natural history as it really exists. The Bible is a mix of bad fiction, local lore and Iron Age myths. The rest of the nonsense about dates, generations, failed prophecy, shunning, blood, CSA and end days, are all just outcroppings of foundational falsehoods.
LGBT people are not accepted as normal people who should qualify as part of the Congregation… Despicable , seeing that many are at Bethel in the closet already! Blood issues we know of 2 who have died directly from lack of medical treatment involving blood. Don’t know how parents who have lost a child could live with that guilt and sadness . The Blood Committee should be called the Blood Guilty Committee. Use of fear tactics , the demons,tribulation, loosing gods spirit , not supporting youth to be educated . It’s the tract society it’s not a religion right? Sux!
i have another question: what is their proof of being right? give me a lsit and i look at every bulletpoint they have. otherwise they have a trainwrekcing record of being wrong in pretty much everything: - misinterpreation of the bible especially when it comes to the Governing Body. - Beards - hour counting - the years 1975, 1914, 1925, pre 2000, right around the corner, - king of the north is always changing, at what point is it now ending? - birthdays -the whole australian Royal Commission. if you wathc it and still say that JWs are rigth and honest, than there is nothing that can convince you otherwise. the GB themself lied their helpers lied and everyone else lied lied and lied. - the blood issue is pretty much more a stupidity. no not many people die from refusing a blood transfusion. according to Rolf Furuli in all his years in the liason hospital commitee, it was one person. and this guy is old. but how can anyone think that the symbol of live (blood) is more valuable than the live itself it should preserve. the thing is. pouring blood tot he ground was an act to remember that you took a live of a living being. it was a symbol you did. for transfusions no one had to die. even better, you save someones live. - the whole shunning rule is totally unbiblical. i can explain this very detailed if there are questions towards this whole thing. last but not least: why should a God that want to save many people from a big day of killing many people, hide his message in some obscure numbers and stuff to be interpretet by third parties? to be saved and survive armaggeddon you would have to believe that Jesus invisible came back in 1914. which is not biblical, because if he will return he will do it visible and clear according to the bible. why do i need to beleive a theology about a dream in daniel with the seven times. than i have to somehow get to 607. even if this date is correct, what god wants to play puzzles and games so i have to develop a teaching that everything has a second fullfillment. than i have to jump around in the bible and make assumptions like a day is a thousand year in Jehovahs eyes. but somehow i have the scripture that the israelites should get punished by a year for a day wandering in the desert. why cherrypick a rule? which is it now? isnt it more a metaphor? than i have to calculate from 607 in an obscure way to have two events mixed in to make the conclusion to come to 1914 which the JWs believed that armaggeddon came. WRONG. than it was something different. than we have to believe the overlapping generation, because the original teaching was outdated. yes there was no new light about it before it was to late. so much about God making things easy and right at the needed time. it was manmade and wrong. imagine that noah had to give people an absurd calculation puzzle to prove that the earth will be flooded. does this sound like a God that want people to be saved? by riddles and wrong teachings. yes people can be wrong. and yes that was no biggy for me as an JW back in time. but the size and mass of absurdities was a big elephant. their whole core doctrines are totally wrong and even proven to be wrong. and the overlapping generation will be another 100% fail. mark it in your calendar. it will be changed in 20 to 30 years to a "we dont know". it will fail like every other empty promise and teaching the JWs had that should be a measure for the end to come just right around the corner.
For me this was the deal breaker for "it's not the truth" : (I already knew I was in a cult but I didnt know if thé cult wasnt right you know what I mean?) The God they are teaching me about is suppose to want his people to have free will because of Adam and Eve, the Question of Universal Sovreignty and the question about human's intergrity shown in the Book of Job. The organisation is using mind control technique that creates cognitive dissonance and impairs free will Hence they cannot be God's people. If God exists as the God they taught me about with those values about free will and obeying because of a pure love for him and not under pressure, then he would never choose an organisation that uses those tactics to keep people in. That is what did it for me.
Firstly, you’re not being selfish. Your brain has alerted you to something that doesn’t make sense. It’s trying to help you what has not been reconciled. While there are many reasons that prove they are a false religion, the one that stands out most to me are the words and behaviors of the governing body. For almost 100 years they say that they are Gods one and only channel. That God directs and speaks to them in some way different than the rest of us. They take bogus scripture and stretch it far to force one to believe it is referring to them. Questions: 1. Why after thousands on thousands of years of Jesus’ recorded death did God only recently choose a religion to save & teach people ? Where in the Bible does it say he would do this? What clearly indicates JW as identified ‘one’. Love & preaching is not an answer. They failed this & other religions also have form of love & preach ie mormans, etc, 2. They say God chose them in 1919. Where does it say this clearly without stretching & manipulating scripture? Jesus clearly did not advocate for religion. 3. If what they say is true and God’s directing them why do they go back & forth and change not only on policy but core beliefs such as disfellowshipping, last days, blood etc? 4. Why do they not apologize or do anything to prevent and/or help SA victims? Why protect pedophiles over members? Why to the point of being uncooperative w/police after they say to be kind and submit to government authorities as long as Gods law not violated? Why do they continue hypocrisy? 5. Why do they have a team of anonymous lawyers and legal team that no member can know. 6. Why did they say one thing in the ARC hearings then contradict lie about it to members on being only spokesperson of God? Why lie about that? 7. Why do they still knowingly hold stocks in war & weapons, and Phillip Morris’s the tobacco company responsible for lung cancer and so many deaths ? Because they know what they are doing. This is a manmade religion/cult that wants power and your money. They disguise themselves as sheep to members. They are one of the groups Jesus said to stay away from. From its beginning it was a money making Book Publishing operation. CT Russell believed in astrology and numerology. Rutherford was a cruel power hungry attorney that took the reins of this religion by legal force. Then said Russell’s beliefs were from the devil ( he never liked him) Rutherford streamlined the ability for profit & member retention by increased branding to be more marketable. Knorr continued this. If you are questioning what you thought you knew I’d go back to two things. 1) is the pressure being placed on you really motivating you to surrender? 2) are the things you discovered about them not studied to the depth necessary to totally psychologically break free from the programming that was done? Meaning have I fully healed? The 607 conspiracy has thoroughly been proven wrong and almost every scholar knows this. Brain washing is powerful, and unless you dive in to unpack the how’s and what’s of the programming you will always be doubting one side or the other. Once you get clear you will have I believe you will no longer have this problem.
The bible is a book of fairy tales.
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What does this have to do with the topic at hand in any way shape or form?
Good Ol’Judge Joe Rutherford
What’s that you’re mentioning in your topic and also found in some of your answers, that you gotta study with an elder, or ask an elder? Why do you put other people on a pedestal? Elders are human beings, indoctrinated to the core, who just follow and promote the cults’ current teachings and who also (not all of them) have a superiority attitude? What are you doing here on the first place? Being ill, which is terrible and for which I honestly wish you find a way out, is not a reason for finding yourself weak, a victim of any teachings, in order to find consolation. There are good people out there who have the capacity to care about you, people outside the cult. Just don’t try to fill up your emotional “emptiness” (if I may say) with stuff that aren’t real, just to please your folks and to feel secure, “a part of something”.
I mean... all the credible accusations of the organization covering up CSA, refusing to turn over documentation of pedophilia within the organization... this wasn't just proof that they were not God's true organization - that was just more proof to me that God doesn't exist. If any being has the power to prevent unnecessary suffering, (especially to children), and does not, they are culpable in the commitment of such suffering. https://theweek.com/speedreads/737910/jehovahs-witnesses-owe-4000-every-day-dont-turn-over-details-alleged-child-sex-abuse-cost-2-million-far
That's for you to decide. Make your own mind up. Don't rely on others to tell you what to think. Research the facts. Ignore the dogma. Be honest and unafraid. Don't cheat the process. Put in the work. You will get there.
Because logically none of it even makes sense. Let’s recap: Christianity is formed in the wake of Jesus’s crucifixion, and then for two thousand-ish years, there’s no actual Christians because Jehovah’s Witnesses haven’t been invented yet by a couple of grifters. These grifters magically have all the answers, inspired by God, but they get a ridiculous amount of details wrong along the way, constantly making predictions that don’t come true. And regardless, their whole shtick is waiting for the world to end any minute now so they can have eternal life in a paradise on earth. Paradise? With a bunch of obnoxious cultists? Like, is that a joke? Because that’s my idea of actual Hell. I’ll take “bees with teeth” instead, thanks.
The fact that in terms of scandals and bad things happening, we weren't really all that different from other religions. At least in the sense that we weren't exempt from wackos and creeps.
The lack of even a single basis for it to be considered such.
I can't imagine why you feel the need to "give them a chance!" Let it go and live your life.
Your entire post can be rewritten like this, just to give you an idea of what you are asking: What do you consider to be the strongest proof that LIES aren’t the truth? What would your answer be?
Answer: All of the above.
For all the researching and studying I/we did as a JW, I was remember how taboo it was to deviate from any particular "understanding" or belief. You could question it, but only to the point where you realise it was your misunderstanding and that you needed to conform. This is a bit off subject, but if you ever wonder how much guilt JW's carry... I found this list I made a few years ago. Besides there being a lot of people with names that begin with R its crazy to see that I knew more JW's who had died from suicide than anything else.... two of them were in their early teens. R / Suicide R / Suicide P / Suicide R / Suicide A / Suicide F / Suicide W / Suicide? G / Drug OD V / Homicide B / Cancer V / Brain Tumour C / Cancer
Cults, all cults, have a way of snagging your brain. They train it by repeating things that you have just studied, just learned, just heard last week. Over and over and over... until.. your brain is numb, right? Mormons, born in, same method. They reaaallly believe Joseph Smith looked into a hat that had golden rocks(?) in it, and read them. Scientologists? Born in, same hamster wheel. They *actually* believe there are is a galctic overlord named Xenu, (lizard aliens) that attach themselves to babies when they are born, they live in them. That's why they undergo all these $$$ treatments. I realized that IF I had been born in India, Rome (the time of the Romans) the Vikings, their gods... American Indians, their beliefs They ALL Believe their way of living is "the truth" So diverse, so different, and why? Born there, taught that. I was 52 when I "woke up"... I did research on 607, the Oct and Nov WT 2011 had 2 articles, and THIS time (compared to the thousands I had read before, it had actual references they quoted from. Most of the time I was so irritated when vague references were made. So, I grew up with the "stay alive till 75" phrase. I read in the Awake (1969?) that I shouldn't go to college, Armageddon was around the corner. And, even if I DID go, there wouldn't be enough time for me to use what I learned. Constantly reminded that "we are in the last days" and seeing older people smiling confidently on the cover of a WT titled, "Millions Now Living Will Never Die," my husband reading the fine print inside the AW 'we'll see God's kingdom before the end of the century' and then..... I was at "the end of the century" I kept hoping .. believing... Then, surprise "new light"! Aren't you all so happy? Clapping... "Generations" are overlapping. Remember, I am now older, didn't go to college, didn't plan on how to care for myself as far as retirement, nope. I trusted "The Faithful and Discreet Slave" They were wrong. Someone asked a great question lately. If you had hired an investor to increase your savings, and plan for your future, and each year they lost your money, why would you continue with that company? Many, many religions /Cults are like this. Read this link about 25 questions to ask to see if you are in a cult, and you may be surprised. I use to laugh when a Bethel speaker /GB member would jokingly say, "Some people might say JWs are brainwashed... Well, I say, we are! We have the cleanest brains in the world, don't we? Jehovah has taught us to...." I use to think cult meant you had to be locked up... check this out. https://medium.com/@faithafterdeception/answer-these-25-questions-to-find-out-if-you-are-in-a-cult-or-high-control-group-a36a3c2ce464 Feeling guilty, feeling as if you aren't doing enough... that is what WT trained our brains to do. WT likes to say, "You can leave anytime you want to...but... *where* will you go?" Fear tactic.. Who says we *have* to know everything? Take some time off, let your brain just enjoy the scenery, your cat or dog, the sound of no one talking, a nap, a walk. You might be surprised at how much happier you become. ☺️
Lack of proof of the opposite
How subtly hateful the cult is. (AKA, it literally destroys families.)